Surprisingly bad units

[Skullheadhq]

Well... Roman Army's where didn't have any good cavalry(if any). 35000 Romans where crushed at the battle of Carrhae because they didn't have enough cavalry(dispite the romans having the numbers on their side. And so did the Greek army. The 10.000 had only 40(!) cavalry troops so you can't expect that Thessalian troops are the best trained cavalry force in the known world.

[machinor]

I have actually come up with a standard set of heavy ifnantry tactics for EB and made a fairly good version of the manipular swap:

1) The main thing to do with any sort of heavy infantry is that you put the first line of them in guard mode. The defense bonus and more importantly that insane stamina bonus(seems to be related to the fact that fewer of your men actually fight/move) make your men last so much longer. I usually spread this line fairly thin if I'm encountering lots of infantry(2-3 men thick) but thicker(4-6) if I'm fighting cavalry.

2) Never order guys in guard mode to attack, keep them in guard mode and receive the enemy's charge. If you tell them to attack, they lose the stamina bonus because the whole unit will start pushing.

The Swap: You spread your Hastati and Principles in two thin lines(2-3 guys) with the principles right behind the Hastati. You set your Hastati to defend to grind away at the enemy's stamina. You set your Principles to the normal attack mode. As the battle is joined, you will notice your Hastati slowly being pushed back. This is because guard mode units that are not told to attack do not push forward, they are pushed backwards instead. After a while, the Hastati line will be pushed into the Principles line. Hopefully the enemy is tired by now. This will cause the fresh Principles to engage and start pushing forward. After a little bit your Hastati and Principles will be overlapping.

When you wish to pull your Hastati out, take them out of guard mode and tell them to run out of there. They'll do it and only take a few casualties because low stamina lowers lethality and they can't chase your guys because the Principles are pushing them backwards.

The Roman infantry seem particularly well suited for this sort of thing especially those heavily armored Samnite spearmen that are really good at just sitting there and not dying while tiring out the enemy.

This sounds like an excellent tactic, antisocialmonkey.
I will try to have Pyrrhos' son in my Epirote campaign adopt a similar tactic from the Romans. I don't use that much phalangites in my armies since the Roman AI tends to outmaneuver my main phalanx battle line and go for the flanks.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I don't use that much phalangites in my armies since the Roman AI tends to outmaneuver my main phalanx battle line and go for the flanks.

Well, I don't use them because it feels like cheating and takes all the fun out of fighting. In EB, the phalanxes are virtually impenetrable from the front by anything except heavy cavalry. Pantodapoi Phalangitai can beat even Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou, just as long as the phalanx mode is on and the TABs are attacking from he front. The only exception is when I am fighting another army that employs numerous phalanxes.

[machinor]

That's why I usually turn guard mode off, to simulate a more "realistic" phalanx. Apart from that, I usually too use them mostly against other phalanx factions which - playing mostly hellenistic factions - I encounter often.

[Aemilius Paulus]

That's why I usually turn guard mode off, to simulate a more "realistic" phalanx.

What does that do? Never tried doing that. I'm talking about pike phalanxes BTW.

[machinor]

Me too. Hoplites I call hoplites. ;)
Putting guard mode off makes the phalanxes less impenetrable and they get fatigued and thus take more casualties afaik. I do this to actually "simulate" a more realistic battle between pike phalanxes. Since in the long term I'll probably lose against the AI phalanx (being in guard mode by default) I'll have to win on the flanks to decide the battle, which afaik is the usual strategy in Successor warfare. Kind of my own personal Successor warfare battle house rule.

[Dayve]

Not sure if they've been mentioned yet, but i was quite disappointed by the Numidian noble cavalry. I'm far from being an expert on this area of ancient history, but i thought that, since Hannibal's Numidian cavalry was so important to him, played such a key part in his battles and came as such a blow when they switched their allegiance to the Romans, i thought they might have been a bit... well, better.

They're not terrible by any means... i mean, you are attacking a unit from head on and a position opens up, that unit can dash in behind them and pepper them with javelins... that's always a useful battlefield role, especially when the odds are with your enemy and every man you can kill without losing one of your own counts.

I just find them to be... lacking. Their charges aren't very good and they drop like flies when fighting even unarmoured skirmishers.

I would like to balance this post out with a surprisingly good unit, however. Maure infantry. You find them in the same areas as Numidian cavalry. They look primitive. No armour, a shield, a sword and some throwing spears.

Don't be fooled, they're a fantastic cheap unit. They're lacking in defense yes, but they make up for it with their numbers and the javelins. You'll get 6 or 7 volleys from them, and if they get all 6 volleys off, whatever they threw them at will be weakened to the point where their numbers tip the fight in their favour, and they will win.

A surprisingly awesome unit!

[Ibrahim]

Not sure if they've been mentioned yet, but i was quite disappointed by the Numidian noble cavalry. I'm far from being an expert on this area of ancient history, but i thought that, since Hannibal's Numidian cavalry was so important to him, played such a key part in his battles and came as such a blow when they switched their allegiance to the Romans, i thought they might have been a bit... well, better.

They're not terrible by any means... i mean, you are attacking a unit from head on and a position opens up, that unit can dash in behind them and pepper them with javelins... that's always a useful battlefield role, especially when the odds are with your enemy and every man you can kill without losing one of your own counts.

I just find them to be... lacking. Their charges aren't very good and they drop like flies when fighting even unarmoured skirmishers.

I would like to balance this post out with a surprisingly good unit, however. Maure infantry. You find them in the same areas as Numidian cavalry. They look primitive. No armour, a shield, a sword and some throwing spears.

Don't be fooled, they're a fantastic cheap unit. They're lacking in defense yes, but they make up for it with their numbers and the javelins. You'll get 6 or 7 volleys from them, and if they get all 6 volleys off, whatever they threw them at will be weakened to the point where their numbers tip the fight in their favour, and they will win.

A surprisingly awesome unit!

no skirmisher cavalry is meant to charge head on into another cavalry or infantry unit-ever. Hence, keep your numidians at a distance, until the enemy's inferior stamina and depleted ranks dull them(badly). Then Charge! their charge bonus won't make too big a diff, but they'll win, most because as missile cav, they'll be less tired than the heavy cav that romans or cathaginians use. and hit from the flanks or rear.

just keep you distance, and tire them out.

[Watchman]

Multiple-unit converging charges also highly recommended. Rinse and repeat until you run out of targets. Scientifically known as "cavalry rapage", I believe.

[Kuningaz]

I was actually quite disappointed by my carthaginan sacred band infantry... I made one unit of them to try them out and used them in my army against the ptolies. In the first battle I was attacked by a single unit of hellenic native spearmen 'reinforcement' in the back, so I decided to try my shiny sacred band against them. What happened? After about 10 minutes of fighting they finally managed to rout those crappy spearmen, loosing half of their unit!

[machinor]

Seriously? Against those Pantodapoi spearmen? I never had the chance to use them in battle, but this sounds aweful. There must have been an other reason for them doing so bad.

[Cullhwch]

I was actually quite disappointed by my carthaginan sacred band infantry... I made one unit of them to try them out and used them in my army against the ptolies. In the first battle I was attacked by a single unit of hellenic native spearmen 'reinforcement' in the back, so I decided to try my shiny sacred band against them. What happened? After about 10 minutes of fighting they finally managed to rout those crappy spearmen, loosing half of their unit!

Shenanigans. What difficulty level were you playing on? The stats are balanced for medium battle difficulty. You probably played on VH, which gives the AI +7 to attack, defensive skill, and morale. On medium difficulty it's about as lopsided as prison sex.

[Kuningaz]

Actually I played on medium difficulty, the only advantage the pantadopoi had was advantage of height. I even charged them btw (from a small distance)

[Watchman]

They didn't happen to be some of those gold-upgrade gold-chevron OMGWTFHAX monsters settlement revolts often spawn? The last time I had to deal with such, they were Missile Target #1 for the whole army...

[Kuningaz]

Hm don't really think so, usually it's apeleutheroi and mercenaries that get spawned and not a single unit of pantadopoi, no?

[Aemilius Paulus]

Actually I played on medium difficulty, the only advantage the pantadopoi had was advantage of height. I even charged them btw (from a small distance)

Advantage of height, eh? How big was the advantage? RTW engine vastly overrates height advantage IMHO. Not only this, but terrain in RTW can be ridiculously steep. Anyway, I remember doing tests in vanilla, and an unupgraded unit of Ppeasants destroyed a unit of Mercenary Hoplites in phalanx mode on about a 20 degree slope, suffering only 40 casualties out of 120!

[Watchman]

Hm don't really think so, usually it's apeleutheroi and mercenaries that get spawned and not a single unit of pantadopoi, no?

The Apeleutheroi were created to do away with the problem of the game crashing if there were no barracks in the settlement to generate the rebel units from. If there are barracks present, however, pretty much any unit the "rebelling-to" faction could recruit out of them may appear.

And Panties? They're recruited out of the first-level barracks over a *very* wide area...

[Tyrfingr]

In my semi-observing Indo-Baktria game, I thought these were good medium cavalry...but it turned out they drop like flies for the most.

[Kuningaz]

Advantage of height, eh? How big was the advantage? RTW engine vastly overrates height advantage IMHO. Not only this, but terrain in RTW can be ridiculously steep. Anyway, I remember doing tests in vanilla, and an unupgraded unit of Ppeasants destroyed a unit of Mercenary Hoplites in phalanx mode on about a 20 degree slope, suffering only 40 casualties out of 120!

Well I'm aware of how steep the battle maps can be but it wasn't that much at all, just an average dune in the Sahara near that town west of Alexandreia (forgot the name)

The Apeleutheroi were created to do away with the problem of the game crashing if there were no barracks in the settlement to generate the rebel units from. If there are barracks present, however, pretty much any unit the "rebelling-to" faction could recruit out of them may appear.

And Panties? They're recruited out of the first-level barracks over a *very* wide area...

Hm I didn´t know that maybe I got my impression of apeleutheroi with mercenaries from my Sauromatae campaign where completely destroyed and abandoned cities rebelled to the AS.

[kekailoa]

These guys are a hinderance to my army. They have no stamina, so tire extremely easy (slowing down the rest of the army). I'm almost tempted to mod the EDU file.

They are 'surprisingly bad' because they are an elite unit (who should be fit), and are expensive

By the way, I love Casse; the varied units, the body paintings, all beautiful.

I agree. For an elite unit of the Casse, you can recruit the Milhant (those Belgae swordsmen) for less, get more troops, and maintenance is less by half. I just skip these guys and keep my Milhant until I get to the Rycalawre.

And I disagree about the Godilic Nobles. Those guys are tough infantry that saved my Casse army in Iberia by fighting where it was the hottest (I was playing a Godilic Iberian conquest) and I relied on them heavily.

[Karo]

The Carthaginian Bodyguard, they are really awful they get their ass kicked by some weak skirmish cavalry. or is it just me and that I'm used to the tanks of the east who can destroy everything on their path

[Watchman]

AP weapons. Don't get swamped in them. The Sacred Band are just about the most hardcore cavalry in the whole western third of the map (with the possible exception of the Iberian catas), but anything dies with enough AP-armed weenies swarming it.

Especially if high charge and lethality scores are involved. I've had some unpleasant experiences with Qarth FMs getting mobbed by multiple Numidian horse, myself.

[Marcus Ulpius]

Personally I found Sacred band bodyguards quite good. They were able to tip the tide in several battles with Romans, while Roman infantry had quality advantage over my infantry as Romans were fielding mostly Triarii and PE's (until I destroyed most of their recruitment centers). I certainly wouldn't win those battles without Sacred Band guards.

On the other hand, I think Hypaspistai are surprisingly bad. Of course they can take care of themselves in battle, but for their title and stats they lose too much men and cause too little damage you'd expect from elite soldiers. I think Pheraspidai is a much better and more versatile unit.

[Sdragon]

Pontic Elite Infantry are really bad. They are supposed to be a step up from Hellenic Spearmen but you'll find they are cheaper and are far worse, despite the armour they actually have -1 defence. Fought a 88 man unit of militia hoplies with 5XP and bronze weapon. My full strength elite infantry (160 men) routed after their numbers fell to 70. They killed just 30 hoplites. After that I threw my Celtic spearmen into the mix and destroyed those hoplites with ease, taking limited casualties This is on flat ground, in a town, a fair test. Taking into account the level barracks needed and the limited recruitment area, your left with something cheap and useless at everything. I got more use out of the Hellenic native spearmen I started with.

Iberian Heavy Infantry are the same thing really. They cost a tiny bit more and you get a little more out of them. But the loss of numbers over their light cousins doesn't make up for it. They are described as the best of the Iberian warriors, but they don't act like it. Little more than glorified line infantry.

[Zarax]

I fully agree, Pontic thorakitai were my biggest disappointment when playing with them.
Luckily galatian heavies proved to be a pretty good replacement...

[MerlinusCDXX]

My solution to recruiting the relatively useless Pontic Thrakitai...don't. Use lots of type 3 gov'ts and get Classical Hoplitai and regular ole thureophoroi instead as a line infantry (for a non-phalanx option) or recruit Galatikoi Kuarathoroi (Galatian heavies- these guys rock) where you can as your elite infantry.

[Watchman]

The Pontic Thorakitai aren't actually too bad when you look at it closely - save for numbers and the lack of AP precursors, they're about on par with Cohors Reformata although a bit more expensive. (Which actually also goes for the largely similar Armenian armoured swordsmen. I'm actually a bit surprised nobody's complaining about them in the same breath...) The real letdown is their war gear, which just doesn't really add up to armour scores better than average (9, to be specific) no matter how you look at it, so they just can't really make all that good a showing compared to, say, the more thoroughly armoured common Thorakitai.

The Iberian armoured troopers have a bit different problem, namely, they live in a corner of the map where AP weapons grow in trees. That kind of seriously nerfs the mileage they get out of their gear, goes a long way to allowing the lighter guys swamp them by sheer numbers and makes them rather cost-inefficient much of the time. They should perform rather better against opponents without AP though, one imagines.

Could be that the lot need to be given the +2 "agility" bonus to defense skill. It's not usually used on units with more than a relatively light level of armour (8 is the usual threshold), but when that's broken it is to either A) denote a particularly elite level of training or B) make an expensive unit perform more like "what it says on the tin". In the case of the three units mentioned above, the latter is probably applicable as they do seem to have a bit of a viablity issue ATM.

[MerlinusCDXX]

Good point on the Armenian swordsmen, I don't think anyone notices their lackluster performance because Hayasdan has better options for killing power, namely horsearchers, cataphract horsearchers, and cataphract lancers. I think with Pontos, the lack of a good infantry unit with proper killing power is noticeably lacking because there's not really any other outstanding killer in the Pontic arsenal except for early FM bodyguards, as their heavy cavalry options aren't recruitable in their core provinces. They do have a good pike phalanx, but they have more holding power than killing power. With Pontos, I tend to use a lot of regional troops because of their lackluster homegrown military.