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Thread: The myth of the cavalry charge

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    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    I have been reading with interest the debates on this forum about the various aspects of medieval combat. (e.g. Spears v Swords and Knights v Spears etc) and whilst I cannot claim to have any expert knowledge on the subject I think there are some important points which I have discovered about Napoleonic warfare that are equally relevant to the Medieval period.

    The first point to make right at the start is that real warfare, certainly on the Napoleonic battlefield was absolutely nothing like the way it is depicted in films, paintings and even to a large extent in actual eyewitness accounts and reports. As Wellington said after a particularly stirring account of the battle by one of his generals at a commemoration dinner in honour of his victory at Waterloo. "If that was what happened, then surely I could not have been there."

    Diarists, report writers, painters, film makers and even historians all tend to create with the interest of their target audience in mind and so we the consumers are presented not with what actually happened but what the creator thinks ought to have happened or thinks his target audience want to believe happened.

    The truth normally hides between the lines and must be uncovered by careful cross-referencing of accounts from many different sources to look for ambiguities. In effect it requires detective work and a large application of logic and common sense. I won't bore you with the details but suffice it to say that for example most of the commonly understood history of the Battle of Waterloo is total rubbish as are the vast majority of the paintings produced to glorify the event.

    The first and most important illusion is the myth of the cavalry charge. We are all familiar with the concept. The Charge of the Light Brigade, the Charge of the Scots Greys etc. A great host of big men on big horses hurling themselves with great impact on the enemy.

    Well sorry folks, it didn't happen. At least not the way we imagine it or the way it was painted by all those artists eager to glorify the event.

    The reality is that cavalry if they broke into a gallop at all did so at the very last minute and only then if they sensed that victory was in the bag. There are two very important reasons for this.

    a) Unit cohesion

    b) Command and Control

    It is simply impossible for a group of mounted men to maintain formation at anything above a canter. Therefore, the gallop was reserved for the final dash upon their opponent. All the cavalry manuals of the Napoleonic period advocate this method and Wellington's main criticism of the British cavalry was they failed to abide by this rule and tended to dash at everything with great vigour only to dash back again with equal enthusiasm. It is also a fact that once moving at such a pace the opportunity to pass any command verbally or by signal is lost. I know in all the cowboy films the buglers are sounding the charge at full gallop but if you try it in real life you'll take your teeth out and even if you managed a few notes the sheer noise of all the galloping horses would prevent anyone hearing it.

    In practice cavalry approached their objective at the walk/trot carefully maintaining alignment and with their leaders dictating and curbing the pace of the advance. The objective being that they arrive on target together and in a solid line. In some instances such as the charge of the Scots Greys at Waterloo the cavalry would close with the enemy at this pace. In this instance a gallop was impossible because the enemy were already too close and unnecessary as the French infantry had already panicked and so the Greys merely trotted up to them and began hacking them down as they tried to escape back through the hedge.

    The reason the solid line was so important was NOT to maximise the impact of the collision with the enemy but to maximise the visual impact of their approach on the enemy and to impress them with the determination of their advance.

    The second myth of the cavalry charge is that that they hurled themselves bodily into the enemy formation. The fact of the matter is that you cannot train a horse, or for that matter a man to impale themselves of opponent's weapon. Inevitably one or both of them are going to balk at the prospect of doing so. You can train a horse to tolerate loud and unexpected noise, you can train it to kick out and bite at an obstacle in front of it but you can't train it to walk onto a pike, bayonet or spear and if you did it would be dead anyway. The second augment against such a tactic is that it would be essentially pointless in that unless armed with a lance forcing ones mount directly onto an opponent leaves the rider with little opportunity to use his weapon and even if armed with a lance then forcing it at high velocity into an opponents body is a sure fire way of permanently disarming yourself and possibly catapulting yourself out of the saddle or breaking your arm.

    Incidentally another interesting myth is that the cavalry charge is more effective if launched downhill. In fact evidence suggests just the opposite because of the anatomy of a horse travelling down a slope is much harder for a horse than travelling up it. A horse moving down a slope tends to want to sit on its haunches or zigzag back and forth to lessen the incline which means it cannot make full use of its more powerful hind legs. Whereas a horse travelling up a slope is able to support itself on its stronger back legs in order to power its forward movement.

    More importantly if attacking from horseback an opponent lower down a slope has the advantage of being presented with a clearer strike at the breast his opponents horse whilst the rider higher up the slope must extend his own reach farther due the angle of his horses back.

    What actually happened at the end of a so-called charge depended largely on the psychological impact the approach has had on the enemy. If as was hoped some of the enemy has panicked during the approach then the leaders will almost certainly order a final gallop. At this point it is assumed and expected that some if not all of the opposing troops will panic and try to escape the impact. This will almost certainly mean that those directly in the path of the charging horsemen will try to avoid them either by forcing their way back into the rear of their formation or to one side. This may involve dropping your weapon or turning your back on the advancing horsemen. Either way, it will create a gap in the enemy defensive formation and at that point the first line of cavalry would push home to spread the panic and widen the gap. In effect prizing the enemy formation apart.

    If the enemy formation still stood its ground at this point the leaders of the second line might decide to commit there own force to further the effect again relying upon the enemy to panic and try to avoid them. But more likely they would hold their own line back and use it to cover the withdrawal of their colleagues from the first. Without this close tactical reserve withdrawal of the first line becomes impossible without heavy casualties as the enemy can follow up as we see demonstrated in MTW?

    However, if the enemy formation shows no sign whatsoever of panic then quite simply the cavalry stop and don't charge home. At Waterloo there were numerous accounts of cavalry on both sides trotting up their opponents and halting within spitting distance of them only to go three's about and withdraw. These were in effect failed charges where the leader had assessed that the enemy were not going to panic and so their was no point charging home. In some cases the cavalry even resorted to taunting their opponents in the hope that they could goad them into breaking formation to attack them and thus leave some gaps to exploit.

    According to Keegan the French Knights at Agincourt attempting to weather the hail of arrows were so driven together that when they arrived at the English position they were in such a solid mass they were unable to form a proper tactical reserve allowing the English to leave their position and close with them without the threat of being ridden down.

    As a final resort if the cavalry could not intimidate their opponents into breaking formation then their only option was to rely on third party support. Hence the need for horse artillery, horse archers or some other form of mobile missile troops. At Waterloo the French cavalry attacking Mercers battery were so desperate to persuade his gunners to quit their guns that they tried to use their carbines to rattle them. Unfortunately a carbine fired from the saddle is not very accurate and Mercer was able to re-assure his men by riding up and down in front of his own guns inviting the enemy to take pot shots at him and in the end the French gave up on the idea.

    So, what does all this rambling have to do with MTW?

    Well it suggests that things are about right as they stand.

    Knights and other cavalry that charge home but fail to break an enemy formation ought to get bogged down and take heavy casualties. The only real issue is whether the enemy ought to panic more often than they do at present. Clearly, the issue here is one of morale and discipline rather than weapon technology.

    From a players view we ought to make sure that we keep a fresh unit of cavalry always on hand to act as a tactical reserve to exploit the initial charge or support its withdrawal and ideally a unit of missile troops as well.

    There is also an argument for changing the slope advantage for cavalry but I suspect that would be just too radical.

    Didz

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  2. #2
    I wanna be a real boy! Member chunkynut's Avatar
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    Big post.

    nuff said.

    Agree with the unit cohesion part for napoleons era but unfortunatly in medieval times the charge was seen as honourable and undertaken no matter what the orders were.

    Also the cav of napeloen had light armour if any and even the horses of the knights had loads of armour. This can cause a very big whole in the line of battle! And bogged down and take casualties, these men were trained in very undiscaplined fighting of 1 v 1 or 1 v many from an early age (as soon as they can weild a sword effectively).

    [This message has been edited by chunkynut (edited 10-08-2002).]

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    I don't even have an option on the subject but I liked reading your post.

    so thx for that
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  4. #4

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    Hello,

    You make some very, very good points. However, your statement that "there are some important points which I have discovered about Napoleonic warfare that are equally relevant to the Medieval period." is largely false. You are ignoring the passing of almost a full millenium of history and warfare. There are some grounds for comparison, yes, but the cavalry of 1000 CE and 1800 CE were often two different creatures.

    Cavalry in the 19th century had taken on new roles. Despite what history books often tell us, most people were not idiots and had leared the futility of horse units charging headlong into pikes and musket fire. Aside from a few exceptions, which you have noted, cavalry was used for scouting, harrassing, and for attacking very weak units (routing, skirmishers, etc). At Waterloo, the French cavalry did in fact stop short because they couldn't break the English squares, and were forced to resort to point blank carbine fire to attempt to disorder them. They failed.

    Your argument becomes more relevent when you begin to speak of the psychological effects of the charge. It is here that we get into the heart of medieval cavalry. Heavy horse were shock units. This is not a factor to be downplayed. Just imagine yourself standing in a poorly trained mob of militia armed with shody gear, seeing a mass of huge warhorses bearing down on you. It took a truly brave man to stand up to that. Once you began to panic and break apart, the one advantage you had, which was a solid wall of bodies, was lost and you would be riden down.

    These were the days before complex military drill. Most infantry could not use useful formations other than the most basic sort, and even if they could, it was difficult to steel yourself to stand up to a massive object such as a horse and rider.

    Technology was the other key issue. Napoleonic muskets were certainly poor tools of warfare, but they were far superior to anything fielded during the medieval period. Combined with the close order drills first perfected by the Spanish Tercios, musket fire was deadly to any cavalry foolish enough to charge headlong without support.

    There was nothing of equal power in the early medieval period. As time went on and technology improved, cavalry began to loose their advantage. But for a long time, especially in areas where English Longbows and other powerful missiles were not common, the power of shock was still key.

    I think MTW does a fairly good job of replicating this. It forces you to use tactics to get the most out of your cavalry. I think that people are just a little upset at the ability of peasent spearmen to hold up powerful knights. This was not historically accurate. Advanced spears (with better gear and training) and pikes gave the infantry a new edge. Basic spears would actually be SHORTER than the average lance or cavalry spear. This has been noted in other threads. A one handed spear would have to be held close to the middle for proper balance, making it little better than a sword in terms of reach.

    However, the current balance is fine. There has to be some counter to cavalry or else that is all anyone would build in the early period. This is a game after all.

    Spears should however receive massive penalties if their flank or rear is set upon. Just look at the effect the flexible early legions had on the static phalanx to see what can happen when someone manages to get around the wall of steel.

    Like I said, you make a very compelling argument, but looking at Napoleonics or anything in that general period is very misleeding.

    I would encourage anyone having trobule fighting spears to take their time and maneuver. If you can set up the situation so that the spears no longer have the advantage you will win. Fix them in place with your infantry, which will give your cav time to maneuver to the flanks and rear. If the spears turn to face this new threat, your infantry can charge their now exposed flanks, leading to the same slaughter.

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    Kyle Goodridge

  5. #5

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    If I remember correctly, in Shogun the cavalry performed better on the flat than downhill. Presume MTW to be the same.

  6. #6

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    sweet! I'm kinda confused how agincourt longbowmen got such great accuracy on the french cavalry, seeing as how MTW archers suck at hitting fast advancing targets...Any info on that bit? plz thxi'm assuming it's because you were correct about the canter bit until the last moment[/list]

    [This message has been edited by MajorFreak (edited 10-08-2002).]

  7. #7
    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Some good points by Didz and Goodridge. Horses have been in my family since I can remember. Until just recently I used to breed Paints, sold most of them off, and just kept a few for pleasure riding now, plus I still board 6 horses for others. I especially like Didz's observation on the terrain effects on the horse. He's on the money there. Horses perform their best on level or gently rolling ground,mongol cav country, and if I'm not mistaken this was taken into account in STW with the heavy cav units especially, I believe it was even stated in the manual. Not sure about MTW, but I assume the mod of the cav units is similar. You both are also correct about the way a horse thinks. It is a rare animal that will willingly throw itself at a hedge of spears, most ones that do in a cav charge are pushed into the pikes from the horses behind them. It takes lots of training to get them to jump those fences in equestrian events, and if you stabbed that horse in the flank with a spear he'd never want to jump it again, and I couldn't possibly count the number of times I've been thrown off trying to jump simple little ditches, logs, fences etc...
    most times a horse wants to go around the object, not over or through it. A knights warhorse was his most prized possession and was not easy to replace, they wouldn't sacrifice them foolishly or the knight would end up as heavily armored infantry.
    Heavy cav were best used to exploit holes already present in the shield wall and to pyschologically terrorize poorly trained units, which made up the bulk of most medieval armies. It looks good on film to see heavy cav crash into a wall of defenders, Braveheart comes to mind, but if you ever saw the program on how the film was made, they didn't just use mechanical (dummy) horses to appease the animal rights folks in those scenes. You couldn't get a real horse to do that, they'd stop their charge right in front and the riders would go sailing over the horses heads and into the defenders, the very earliest form of horse artillery lol.
    I think the game developers have done a fine job modding the horse units in this game and in my opinion they shouldn't really change them. I think some peoples complaints about the cav units are based on their perceptions of what Hollywood conveys to them in movies like BraveHeart, and not what the horse can and cannot/will not do in real life. Good thread gentlemen.

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  8. #8

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    Last night I engaged a spear unit with one of my own and sent a med cav unit crashing into his flank and rear.

    Not only didn't this unit break but he quickly formed an asymetrical Vee and
    put a beating on my mounted sergents.

    The Novos must of snuck in a high morale general because I assasinated his predecessor. The unit also must have been good because my leader was average with no VV's.

    I won regardless, and don't really care, but I found this simple spear unit's immediate response and the flexibility and coheision of its formation to be a bit much.

    But to quote Thucydides "Ya never know"

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  9. #9
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Goodridge:
    Hello,

    However, your statement that "there are some important points which I have discovered about Napoleonic warfare that are equally relevant to the Medieval period." is largely false. You are ignoring the passing of almost a full millenium of history and warfare.
    [/QUOTE]

    I think relevance lies in not in weapon technology but in human and equine psychology. I don't beleive that the medieval horse and rider were anymore inclined to skewer themselves on a pike or spear than their Napoleonic equivalent.

    Quote
    Your argument becomes more relevent when you begin to speak of the psychological effects of the charge. It is here that we get into the heart of medieval cavalry. Heavy horse were shock units. This is not a factor to be downplayed. Just imagine yourself standing in a poorly trained mob of militia armed with shody gear, seeing a mass of huge warhorses bearing down on you. It took a truly brave man to stand up to that. Once you began to panic and break apart, the one advantage you had, which was a solid wall of bodies, was lost and you would be riden down.
    [/QUOTE]

    Exactly, and this was the real point I was trying to make. The difference between the performance of cavalry in the Medieval period and the Napoleonic period was nothing to do with the men on the horses and everything to do with the men they were attacking.

    Medieval cavalry were able to charge home more often and with greater effect because generally the command and control quality of the men they were attacking was lower than that of a Napoleonic unit. In short they panicked easier.

    Quote
    Technology was the other key issue. Napoleonic muskets were certainly poor tools of warfare, but they were far superior to anything fielded during the medieval period.
    [/QUOTE]

    Surprisingly! this is a red herring. The fact that a Napoleonic infantryman was armed with a musket had little if any impact upon the final success of a cavalry charge. The simple reason for this was once again psychological rather than physical. There are numerous accounts of cavalry halting less than fifty paces from an infantry square and chanting abuse at the infantrymen in an attempt to provoke them into discharging their muskets. Likewise, Mercer mentions that the French attempted repeatedly to provoke him into firing his guns. I was surprised by this as I would have thought that with a target so close blazing away at them was the most sensible thing to do. Fifty paces is short range even for a musket let alone a 9pdr loaded with cannister.

    The conclusion I came to was that there was an instinctive battle of the minds going on in these confrontations.

    On the one hand the cavalry knew that if they could launch a charge when their enemy was in the process of trying to reload their weapons they would have a distinct morale advantage and would be more likely to cause a panic. Whilst the infantry and gunner knew that as long as they held their fire the cavalry would be reluctant to attempt a charge. And so we read of many such mexican stand-offs occuring some in quite bizarre circumstances. However, the net result is that the infantry are in effect rendered little more effective that spearmen in such situations and one can imagine such a face off occuring in exactly the same circumstances on a medieval battlefield.

    Quote
    I think that people are just a little upset at the ability of peasent spearmen to hold up powerful knights. This was not historically accurate. Advanced spears (with better gear and training) and pikes gave the infantry a new edge. Basic spears would actually be SHORTER than the average lance or cavalry spear. This has been noted in other threads. A one handed spear would have to be held close to the middle for proper balance, making it little better than a sword in terms of reach.
    [/QUOTE]

    I agree with the issue but not the problem. I personally don't beleive it has anything to do with the length of a spear or a sword but simply the likelihood of the spear unit panicking when approached by mounted knights.

    In MTW if knights get in amongst a routing or wavering spear unit they massacre them. If there is a argument for improving the value of mounted knights it should focus on how readily a unit of spearmen would panic when charged rather than how far their spears reach.

    Quote
    I would encourage anyone having trobule fighting spears to take their time and maneuver. If you can set up the situation so that the spears no longer have the advantage you will win. Fix them in place with your infantry, which will give your cav time to maneuver to the flanks and rear. If the spears turn to face this new threat, your infantry can charge their now exposed flanks, leading to the same slaughter.
    [/QUOTE]

    Agreed! combined arms is the answer.

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    Didz
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    [This message has been edited by Didz (edited 10-08-2002).]

    [This message has been edited by Didz (edited 10-08-2002).]
    Didz
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Senior Member Cheetah's Avatar
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    Very nice post Didz. I agree with most of your points, tough not with your conclusion with respect of MTW. IMHO the following ones are very important observations:

    Quote Originally posted by Didz:

    The reason the solid line was so important was NOT to maximise the impact of the collision with the enemy but to maximise the visual impact of their approach on the enemy and to impress them with the determination of their advance.

    What actually happened at the end of a so-called charge depended largely on the psychological impact the approach has had on the enemy. If as was hoped some of the enemy has panicked during the approach then the leaders will almost certainly order a final gallop. At this point it is assumed and expected that some if not all of the opposing troops will panic and try to escape the impact.
    [/QUOTE]

    Way back in STW/MI I have tried to make a similar argument, tough less elaborate as yours I've argued that unexperienced troops should receive a moral penalty when charged by (heavy/shock) cavalry units. Alas, this was not implemented nor in STW neither in MTW. Check out the following thread:
    http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000029.html

    Quote Originally posted by Didz:

    So, what does all this rambling have to do with MTW?

    Well it suggests that things are about right as they stand.

    Knights and other cavalry that charge home but fail to break an enemy formation ought to get bogged down and take heavy casualties. The only real issue is whether the enemy ought to panic more often than they do at present. Clearly, the issue here is one of morale and discipline rather than weapon technology.

    From a players view we ought to make sure that we keep a fresh unit of cavalry always on hand to act as a tactical reserve to exploit the initial charge or support its withdrawal and ideally a unit of missile troops as well.
    [/QUOTE]

    Now, this is where I disagree. Cavalry in MTW is useless as shock troop. You cannot break infantry formations not even by attacking the rear. (At least I've never succeeded with it (as a side note: in STW it was possible!) If you dont believe me just play a few games online and observe how the cavalry is used. You will see that it used in a very "Napoleonic way" i.e. for harassing, screening, chasing, etc. but never as shock troops, never to break formations. Some folks dont even take cavalry , and most players take light or medium cavalry (Alan mercenaries, Mounted Sergeants, Ghulams). You wont see any knights (royal, chivalric or order) which is a shame given that it is supposed to be Medieval Total War. This is not to say that the game in it is present form is not interesting, because it is. Just it has very little resemblance to medieval warfare. IMHO it feels more like hoplite warfare in which cavarly had only a marginal role.
    Note, that I am not arguing that Cavalry should be a kind of uberunit capable of breaking anything with a head-on charge. Good anti-cav units such as pikemen should be able to repel a head-on charge with ease, but heavy cavalry should be able to break swordsmen formations (head-on) and spear formations (flank, rear). And yes, cavalry should dominate in early games! Otherwise what is the use the different periods? As it stands folks pick orderfoot or saracens or whatever infantry they can regardless of the historical period of the game, there is no or very little difference in game play. IMHO waste of options. In Early games cavalry should dominate. In High games cavalry should still be strong but disiplined infantry should gain the upper hand. In Late games cavalry should be more marginal, infantry and ranged unit should dominate. As it stands infantry dominate in all cases. Cavalry is definitely underpowered at least in early games.
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  11. #11

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    Quote Surprisingly! this is a red herring. The fact that a Napoleonic infantryman was armed with a musket had little if any impact upon the final success of a cavalry charge. [/QUOTE]

    I have heard of the standoff problems you mentioned, but keep in mind that a well trained infantry unit was made up of multiple ranks that could discharge independtly (altough this could lead to mistakes in which the wrong soldiers fired), so they would rarely all be unable to fire. Additionally, the front rank of many formations would kneel and set bayonets to help ward of cav. Not that a bayonet could do the job the same way a pike could, but it was better than nothing

    Either way, the point I was getting at was that firepower had gone up a great deal, making infantry that much more deadly at range against any target, especially a nice big one like a horse.

    Quote sweet! I'm kinda confused how agincourt longbowmen got such great accuracy on the french cavalry, seeing as how MTW archers suck at hitting fast advancing targets...Any info on that bit? plz thx [/QUOTE]

    I suggest you read John Keegan's account of the battle (I'm sure its online). Very good reading.

    Basically, the French were coming down a relatively narrow field in a big mass, so the English just had to fire and were bound to hit something. There were so many of them that it was hard to miss.

    The real slaughter came when the French men-at-arms got into action. They were packed so tight in an effort to get to the front lines that they could not turn around and fight back against the English, who gleefully ran up to their flanks to hack them up and take prisonors. This is after the retreating French cav ran many of them over while retreating. Whoops.

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    Kyle Goodridge

  12. #12
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by DojoRat:
    Last night I engaged a spear unit with one of my own and sent a med cav unit crashing into his flank and rear.

    Not only didn't this unit break but he quickly formed an asymetrical Vee and
    put a beating on my mounted sergents.
    [/QUOTE]

    Yep! I think this is the real issue. Even highly trained and disciplined infantry engaged by cavalry would have a real problem performing any sort manouvre like this.

    The problem being that under such stress even a minor hiccup in such a movement would generate panic and lead to disaster.

    At Quatre Bras the 69th lost their colours to French cavalry because they were caught by surprise. But the panic which led to their destruction was not the fact that they were in line but that they were in the process of forming square. Apparently the officer in charge of the Grenadier company was in the process of leading his men into position when he became aware of the French Cavalry bearing down on them. He made a mistake and instead of urging his men to complete the movement he ordered them to halt and fire into the approaching cavalry. This the men did but then realising they were standing in alone with empty muskets they panicked and breaking ranks ran towards their colleagues in the square closely pursued by the French horse.

    They arrived at about the same time and in doing so totally disrupted the rest of the battalion which broke ranks and fled for the woods leaving the colours and small party of stouter or more foolish men to their fate.

    A similar fate befell the Prussian Fusileer Regiment Nr28 at Gilly the day before when the battalion commander attempted to withdraw them in square whilst under threat from the French Dragoons. The panic was caused by the 10th Company facing about to front the approaching cavalry whilst the rest of the battalion continued to withdraw thus creating a breach in the square and causing panic.

    The French spotting the mistake immediately spurred forward and charged home. The regiment lost 13 officers and 614 men in space of a few minutes. Whilst the square of the 6th Regiment a few hundred paces away stood its ground and was ignored.

    Major Von Haine of the 6th Regmt summed the situation up by stating that what needed to be done was to hold off the cavalry with calmness and determination until the woods could be reached. He called on his men to remain calm and finished with the words "No man is to fire unless I give the order."

    Didz

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    Didz
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    [This message has been edited by Didz (edited 10-08-2002).]
    Didz
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  13. #13

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    Very interesting discussion with some excellent points. I agree with Didz's points whole heartedly. The success of a charge against a formed unit is a function of morale. I also agree with Goodridges point that heavy cavalry rarely, if ever, breaks formed spearmen in MTW.

    One question comes to mind as my knowledge of medieval warfare is not as great as I would like. Were most cavalry charges during 11th to 15th century against infantry or against other cavalry? Was cavalry the dominent component of armies, thus they just fought each other? Did cavalry actually charge and break infantry often?

    In the battle of Hastings, I read of a dominant heavy cavalry force struggling to defeat King Harold's infantry army. It was a long drawn out battle which may not have been won, if the archers weren't present to thin out the Harolds foot ranks. And this is in the early time frame.

    The Scots schiltrons were not defeated by pure cavalry. They were defeated by a mixture of Knights and archers.

    How many examples are there of cavalry just riding over infantry during this timeframe other than just peasants?

    One practical note. Has anyone experimented with increasing the charge bonus of cavalry? It might be interesting to see the results of doubling or tripling the initial charge bonus. If the charge bonus were higher, the initial shock might break low morale units.



    [This message has been edited by Jagger (edited 10-08-2002).]

  14. #14
    Senior Member Senior Member Cheetah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Goodridge:

    You make some very, very good points. However, your statement that "there are some important points which I have discovered about Napoleonic warfare that are equally relevant to the Medieval period." is largely false. You are ignoring the passing of almost a full millenium of history and warfare. There are some grounds for comparison, yes, but the cavalry of 1000 CE and 1800 CE were often two different creatures.
    [/QUOTE]

    I agree 100%.

    Quote Originally posted by Goodridge:

    Your argument becomes more relevent when you begin to speak of the psychological effects of the charge. It is here that we get into the heart of medieval cavalry. Heavy horse were shock units.
    [/QUOTE]

    Again, I agree 100%. But you cannot use them in MP as shock troops, there is no way.


    Quote Originally posted by Goodridge:

    There was nothing of equal power in the early medieval period. As time went on and technology improved, cavalry began to loose their advantage. But for a long time, especially in areas where English Longbows and other powerful missiles were not common, the power of shock was still key.

    I think MTW does a fairly good job of replicating this.
    [/QUOTE]

    Surprising conclusion in the light of your previous comment and in the light of the fact that you cannot use cavalry as shock in MP.

    Quote Originally posted by Goodridge:

    It forces you to use tactics to get the most out of your cavalry. I think that people are just a little upset at the ability of peasent spearmen to hold up powerful knights. This was not historically accurate.
    [/QUOTE]

    So, people are rightfully upset, or not?

    Quote Originally posted by Goodridge:

    However, the current balance is fine. There has to be some counter to cavalry or else that is all anyone would build in the early period. This is a game after all.
    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, the early period should be dominated by cavalry. What is the problem with it? If you dont want a cavalry game then you could still pick high or late. There would be a variety at least.

    Quote Originally posted by Goodridge:

    Spears should however receive massive penalties if their flank or rear is set upon.
    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, they should, but they did not. A cavalry rear attack wont route an orderfoot for example.

    Quote Originally posted by Goodridge:

    Just look at the effect the flexible early legions had on the static phalanx to see what can happen when someone manages to get around the wall of steel.
    [/QUOTE]

    This is medieval, IMHO you cannot compare hoplites and phalanx to medieval infantry (esp. early period).

    Quote Originally posted by Goodridge:

    Like I said, you make a very compelling argument, but looking at Napoleonics or anything in that general period is very misleeding.
    [/QUOTE]

    In a same way looking at ancient warfare can be misleading

    Quote Originally posted by Goodridge:

    I would encourage anyone having trobule fighting spears to take their time and maneuver. If you can set up the situation so that the spears no longer have the advantage you will win. Fix them in place with your infantry, which will give your cav time to maneuver to the flanks and rear. If the spears turn to face this new threat, your infantry can charge their now exposed flanks, leading to the same slaughter.
    [/QUOTE]

    Sorry, but I cannot buy these "outsmart your opponents" argumnets. What do you think your opponent would do in the meantime? Read the Daily Mirror??? Heavy cavalry were shock troops, as you observed, as they were used as shock troops without any smart and intricate tactical manouvers. In fact any commander plannig intricate nanouvers were asking for trouble (IMHO). Please list some medieval battles in which heavy cavalry carried out some intricate flanking and rearing manouvers while spear troops were holding the front. As I said cavalry should dominate the early period.

    And Goodridge please dont take this as personal offence, just your post provided the perfect quotes for my argument In fact IMHO we agree about quite a lot, except gameplay.
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    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Cheetah:
    Sorry, but I cannot buy these "outsmart your opponents" argumnets. What do you think your opponent would do in the meantime? Read the Daily Mirror??? Heavy cavalry were shock troops, as you observed, as they were used as shock troops without any smart and intricate tactical manouvers. In fact any commander plannig intricate nanouvers were asking for trouble (IMHO). Please list some medieval battles in which heavy cavalry carried out some intricate flanking and rearing manouvers while spear troops were holding the front. As I said cavalry should dominate the early period.

    And Goodridge please dont take this as personal offence, just your post provided the perfect quotes for my argument In fact IMHO we agree about quite a lot, except gameplay.
    [/QUOTE]

    I agree! Such clever manouvres rarely seem a feature of medieval warefare but they do work in the game.

    The fact that they don't figure on the real battlefield is again a matter of command and control. Firstly, the troops in general were not organised and drilled to the level that would allow such movements and secondly it was not necessary to go to such lengths to acheive a morale advantage.

    Unfortunately neither of these seems to be true in MTW where troops can and do perform intricate manourves in the face of the enemy and do need to be outmanouvred in effect a result.

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  16. #16
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Cheetah:
    Very nice post Didz. I agree with most of your points, tough not with your conclusion with respect of MTW. IMHO the following ones are very important observations:

    Now, this is where I disagree. Cavalry in MTW is useless as shock troop. You cannot break infantry formations not even by attacking the rear.
    [/QUOTE]

    Umm! I thought that was the whole gist of my argument.

    But just to clarify the point I was making was that just as in the Napoleonic period the success of a cavalry charge depended on its ability to panic its opponents and get them to break formation.

    The issue therefore in MTW is whether cavalry and in particular Knights should be able to panic their opponents with more ease.

    I would ad that I am particularly scepitical at the ability of infantry to change formation and manouvre whilst under threat or engaged by enemy cavalry which IMO should carry a major panic penalty.

    Hopefully that clears that up.



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  17. #17
    Senior Member Senior Member Cheetah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Didz:
    Umm! I thought that was the whole gist of my argument.

    But just to clarify the point I was making was that just as in the Napoleonic period the success of a cavalry charge depended on its ability to panic its opponents and get them to break formation.

    The issue therefore in MTW is whether cavalry and in particular Knights should be able to panic their opponents with more ease.

    I would ad that I am particularly scepitical at the ability of infantry to change formation and manouvre whilst under threat or engaged by enemy cavalry which IMO should carry a major panic penalty.

    Hopefully that clears that up.
    [/QUOTE]

    Again, I agree completely with your observations about cavalry (and infantry!), and I support your idea that the cavalry charge should incure some moral penalty. But based on your observations and on your proposal I would conlude that cavalry is underpowered, whereas you conclude that cavalry is just fine. This is what I dont understand
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  18. #18

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    Didz the examples you mention are limited. You only describe Western European experience. Furthermore, the English never had a reputation as being good cavalry that's why their infantry arm was developed. The most successful commander of the middle-ages was Tamerlane who led a mostly cavalry army which had heavily armoured units. Later on in history, one of the most successful military powers in Europe was cavalry-based, that being the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. This army defeated Western and Eastern opponents with the Husaria (Winged hussar heavy cavalry) being the elite. Their most feared tactic was their charge three hundred years after Crecy. These horsemen were armed with very long lances able to break pike squares. Good leadership and disciplined is very important in battle and this is what the French lacked in the 14th-15th centuries

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally posted by Cheetah:
    Sorry, but I cannot buy these "outsmart your opponents" argumnets. What do you think your opponent would do in the meantime? Read the Daily Mirror??? Heavy cavalry were shock troops, as you observed, as they were used as shock troops without any smart and intricate tactical manouvers. In fact any commander plannig intricate nanouvers were asking for trouble (IMHO). Please list some medieval battles in which heavy cavalry carried out some intricate flanking and rearing manouvers while spear troops were holding the front. As I said cavalry should dominate the early period.
    [/QUOTE]

    You are right. I'm not able to recall an example of an deliberate flanking maneuver by knights - which makes us praise the MTW developers for limiting the speed of knight units. Nevertheless, you are wrong when you assume that commanders in the early period just sent thair cavalry forward for an all-out-charge. At Bouvines (1214), for example, both sides placed their infantry militias in the centre of the first line, backed up by knights. The French cavalry only charged the enemy infantry after the latter defeated and started to pursue the French infantry (their formation was surely broken by the infantry match and consequent pursue).
    Several other battles of the early period feature infantry (sometimes dismounted knights) being placed in the frontline with mounted knights to back it up as a reserve.
    So don't tell me that battles of the early period were only charges of knights. Spear armed infantry was recognised and used as a valuable asset to protect against cavalry frontal charges. And although there are little or no flanking maneuvres by mounted knights (except after right or left wing knights defeated the enemy troops directly to their front), commanders cared about their position on the battlefield so that their charge could be delivered at the right moment, after the enemy infantry wall lost cohesion.

    Cheers,
    Antonio


  20. #20
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Hmm another thread about cavalry...

    Quote Originally posted by Didz:
    Umm! I thought that was the whole gist of my argument.

    But just to clarify the point I was making was that just as in the Napoleonic period the success of a cavalry charge depended on its ability to panic its opponents and get them to break formation.

    The issue therefore in MTW is whether cavalry and in particular Knights should be able to panic their opponents with more ease.

    I would ad that I am particularly scepitical at the ability of infantry to change formation and manouvre whilst under threat or engaged by enemy cavalry which IMO should carry a major panic penalty.

    Hopefully that clears that up.

    [/QUOTE]

    We should always be careful comparing Napoleonic warfare with Medieval warfare as muskets and cannons changed tactics a lot.

    Infantry always tried to move into squares to protect themselves against cavalry. Standing in a formation where your flank/rea is protected 6 ranks deep with muskets ready to fire at incoming cavalry and in many cases several squares supporting each other means a lot to the morale of infantry. I think(at Waterloo) that the english even had difficulties getting out of square formation just because it felt so safe to stay in that formation with enemy cavalry near by.

    Infantry caught in the open with no time to form square where routed quickly.

    In medieval times Infantry formed up in dense formations with terrain protecting their flanks/rear (at least in several battles where an all infantry army faced cavalry) If they were to have a chance against cavalry they didnt think about offense but defense: to stand firm, recieve and repel the cavalry charge.

    You simply dont see that in MTW. Spears/pikes caught is the rear/flank by charging heavy cavalry will in most cases not be defeated...only if they are already engaged in fighting another unit.

    Just to change how fast infantry maneuvers and giving a morale penalty is as I see it not enough.

    If the most expensive cavalry is not a big threat to spear units why have pikes at all?

    If a charge into flank/rear of units isnt a disaster, infantry still walks around on the battlefield as they like and you dont really have to worry about keeping your units together in a big defensive formation or covered by your own cavalry.

    As it is now cavalry is simply a support unit for your main force: the infantry. And a support unit you shouldnt spend too much money on..Alans is good enough really.

    There should be difference between early, high and late but there isnt.

    CBR



  21. #21

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    Quote Originally posted by CBR:
    In medieval times Infantry formed up in dense formations with terrain protecting their flanks/rear (at least in several battles where an all infantry army faced cavalry) If they were to have a chance against cavalry they didnt think about offense but defense: to stand firm, recieve and repel the cavalry charge.
    You simply dont see that in MTW. Spears/pikes caught is the rear/flank by charging heavy cavalry will in most cases not be defeated...only if they are already engaged in fighting another unit.
    Just to change how fast infantry maneuvers and giving a morale penalty is as I see it not enough.
    [/QUOTE]

    Well, I agree. In MTW infantry should melt away when charged from the flank or rear by mounted knights.

    Cheers,
    Antonio

  22. #22
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Beavis:
    Didz the examples you mention are limited. You only describe Western European experience. Furthermore, the English never had a reputation as being good cavalry that's why their infantry arm was developed. The most successful commander of the middle-ages was Tamerlane who led a mostly cavalry army which had heavily armoured units. Later on in history, one of the most successful military powers in Europe was cavalry-based, that being the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. This army defeated Western and Eastern opponents with the Husaria (Winged hussar heavy cavalry) being the elite. Their most feared tactic was their charge three hundred years after Crecy. These horsemen were armed with very long lances able to break pike squares. Good leadership and disciplined is very important in battle and this is what the French lacked in the 14th-15th centuries
    [/QUOTE]

    I don't doubt that what you say is true I merely question the methid by which they did it.

    Long lance or not charging full tilt into an enemy pike formation would do nothing but bring about Mutually Assured Destruction for both the lancer and the pikeman.

    If as you say the lance outreached the pike the sensible option would be to halt and use the extra reach to take out individual pikemen and spread disruption in the enemy formation until a breach appeared that could be explioted.



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  23. #23
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by CBR:
    In medieval times Infantry formed up in dense formations with terrain protecting their flanks/rear (at least in several battles where an all infantry army faced cavalry) If they were to have a chance against cavalry they didnt think about offense but defense: to stand firm, recieve and repel the cavalry charge.

    You simply dont see that in MTW. Spears/pikes caught is the rear/flank by charging heavy cavalry will in most cases not be defeated...only if they are already engaged in fighting another unit.

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree this does not seem right.

    IMO: For infantry to survive a charge by mounted knights or any cavalry they should be in a suitably deep formation, stationary and on Hold Formation for maximum cohension.

    Any unit pike or otherwise caught by cavalry whilst moving or in the flank or rear or even in a shallow formation should suffer such crippling morale penalties as to almost guarantee a rout.

    But,(and this is the crux)if a unit of mounted knights charges full tilt inot the front face of a steady pike unit it should not have a hope in hell of succeeding and beefing up the combat attack bonus of the knights would create just such an anomaly.

    So, I say yes make it easier for cavalry to rout badly managed infantry but don't turn them into four legged tiger tanks.



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  24. #24

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    The Winged Hussar charged full tilt. It was considered a dishonor not to break your lnace during the battle. The lance would not only eliminate the target but would also push it back due to momentum. During that period Western European cavalry attacked at a trot with pistols and withdrew (the caracole). After his encounters with the Poles Gustavus Adolphus reintroduced the charge to his cavalry.

  25. #25
    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    Some great points made here, my compliments to all. I am not touting the supremacy of heavy cavalry but I do understand many people's complaints about heavy cavalry in MTW.

    Please keep in mind that during the medieval era it was considered par for the course for heavy cavalry to charge headlong into the enemy's line. What else is expected when you cover rider and horse in armor? If this was an exercise in futility then heavy cavalry charges would have been relegated to obsolesence long before the age of gunpowder. The point is that armor clad knights carrying long lances riding massive, armor clad horses were designed to smash through enemy lines and did so, at least with enough success that such units were considered a necessary and valuable asset to any commander of the era.

    Based on the era, men, horses, armor and weaponry we must also assume that these horse were trained far more rigorously than the horses of the gunpowder era and were expected to be thick in the midst of a hostile, bloody melee. Horses may act in their own self interest but how do you explain stunt horses and those used in equestrian events? Admittedly the latter are not trained to smash into things on purpose (but many do and still keep going or submit to repeated attempts) but jumping over large obstacles is just as difficult, especially to animals that evolved in grassland environments.

    Lastly, if you've ever seen the breeds of horses used for medieval era heavy cavalry you would see that they are considerably larger than the horses used for heavy cavalry during the Napoleonic era. Some years ago I remember watching a documentary that dealt with large breeds of horses and it touched on the age of chivalry and the Crusades when they were highly sought after as mounts for knights. These horses are not just large, they are massive, thick legged and frightfully tall. So much so that when they rear up on their hind legs in the midst of a group of trainers and handlers it looks so out of place as to make you think it was a special effect. They are so large and possess such a wide gait that it proved painful for a knight to ride them for prolonged periods of time. The knight and his squire and/or servant rode 'normal' sized horses for everyday travel and used the war mount as a pack animal (the normal horses looked like ponies next to the war horse). No doubt their considerable size, mass and muscle gave extra shock value to their charges.

    I can understand the 'reluctant horse' behaviour when confronted with a wall of spears, pikes and polearms but what about a wall of men carrying swords and shields? Part of the benefit of using a long lance its ability to penetrate, push or knock down the intended target, usually before the horse even makes contact. Heavy cavalry should have a much easier time of it against sword units and the like.
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  26. #26

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    I have always been uneasy about charging my spearmen into charging cavalry. I receive the huge charge bonus by performing this tactic and I am unaware of any penalties. But in reality, I just can't see spearmen charging into charging cavalry.

    I see spearman as hunkering down and locking arms and trying to look mean and ugly as the cavalry approaches rather than letting out a warcry and rushing forward.

    [This message has been edited by Jagger (edited 10-08-2002).]

  27. #27

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    So what you guys are saying is that if you were on the left flank 3rd row deep with a 6-foot spear, and you saw someone coming in onto your flank, you wouldn't turn to face/fight them? It's human nature to fight what you see, and the guys on the flank will turn and face their threat.

    The "V" phenomenon you describe is human nature. As a spearman, it has been drilled into you for months (maybe even years) that your survival depends on the mass of the formation and the support of the mass in fending off and fighting an attacker. You know that if you break and run, you will either a) be run down and killed, b) be singled out as an attack of opportunity by any enemy in the area and killed, or c) courtmarshalled and executed after the battle for breaking formation, risking the lives of your formation-mates, and cowardice.

    So what would you do if attacked from the flank? You'd do the only option available to you, which is turn and face the attacker. So would all the guys around you. You'd only run away if you felt that the formation was crumbling and the perils of running were less than the perils of fighting on. (or if everyone else was running away) Safety is with the formation, not running away with many nasty men on big horses chasing you.

    Also, an individual spearsmen does not know much about geometry. Sure he trains with his formation-mates to maintain square/rectangle formations. But when the **** hits the fan, he'll fall back on his more basic instinct which is a) survival depends on being in a tight group with his rank-mates, and b) the threat is in the direction of the enemy that he sees, thus he'll turn and face the flank attack, with the guys nearby. *This* is why the V formation occurs, the guys on the flank lose sense of which direction the "front" of the formation is supposed to be, and by drilled instinct form another front along the attacked flank. This is also why it is important to not let spearmen form a straightish line when they do this (the "V"), if you can get that flank line to be wavy or jagged, the spearmen will be in trouble.

    Now when you have much longer weapons (like yari or pikes) which extend 10ft beyond the guy in front of you, it's much harder to turn and face the attacker from the side (your pike would have to rotate through guys in front of you). The human reaction at this point is to drop the pike and grab something else to fight the attacker from the side with. If you don't have an alternate weapon, well you're in trouble. This is the curse of the pike-style weapon. Sure it makes for an impenetratable wall in front. But it means that if an attack comes from the side and the formation can't turn as a whole in time, the formation is in trouble. This is a disadvantage that the shorter spears don't have. But you can be certain that the unit would be acutely aware of this limination, and that every day they train on maneuvering like a whole, which would include how to rotate to follow an enemy cavalry unit. People are highly motivated when they know their life is on the line.

    It can be very frustrating to look at your cavalry unit attack from the side and not demolish an enemy unit, *especially* in MP. But you must look at it from the individual soldier's standpoint, and what would go through your head if you were in that situation (and *not* what you want to go through his head when you're his enemy). IMO, the reason that cavalry aren't all that useful in MP is due to the equality of the opposing forces. As several people have stated above, most real medieval armies were probably full of poorly-trained and poorly-motivated soldiers. If you want to replicate this in MTW, give each side 10 out of the 16 units as 0-valor peasents only Then you should see the behaviour you're looking for

  28. #28

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    A thought about heavy cavalry vs heavy foot soldiers. One disadvantage to the cavalry is density. For a given area of ground, one horse, with space around to enable the use of a weapon, takes up the same space as several foot-soldiers (many if they are in a tight formation). So you have several weapons vs few in any given spot of the battle. I'm talking about once the charge has stopped (or hit home) and the cavalry is milling about amongst the soldiers trying to chop them up. If the soldiers out-number the cavalry by a 2:1 advantage locally (very common in MTW), you have two to three footsoldiers hacking at the horse/cavalryman, while the cavalryman can only engage one of them at a time. Who has the advantage?

    This brings to mind an analogy with schoolyard fights. Take the really big bully. He relies on scaring the bejeezus out of the other kids (which he can do due to meanness and size and the fact that 1:1 he can beat any of the other kids). If 3-4 of the smaller kids go after him, however, one or two will get creamed, but while he's beating up on those kids, the others get around and start hitting and kicking at all sorts of tender spots. Now imagine they're all wielding weapons, who do you think will die? Many of the footsoldiers, and many of the cavalrymen.

    The bully in the schoolyard relies on many cavalry-like tactics and methods for fighting to get his way. But of course, bullies in schoolyards are so different than cavalry on battlefields, that we should just throw the analogy away completely

  29. #29
    Member Member sodoff's Avatar
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    I mostly use my cavalry for diversion {in SP}, to try to entice the opponent to open up his formation, leaving me with gaps or isolated units to bear down on with my infantry units. A successful isolation or diversion usually opens up a lot of possibilities.

    The main thing about cav is mobility. I engage units of spear\pike using, ofcourse, men-at-arms and such and then use the superior speed of the cavalry to form up on their rear, charge and break the enemy formation. Any head-on business is reserved for desperate last ditch attempts to hold off any critical maneuvers form the enemy that threatens to envelop my flanks.

    But as I pointed out, cav is not to be considered a battering ram, but a unit for added finesse.

    Sure, it would be nice to charge things flat with cav, but both game-play and realism would suffer a lot.

  30. #30
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Didz:
    I agree this does not seem right.

    IMO: For infantry to survive a charge by mounted knights or any cavalry they should be in a suitably deep formation, stationary and on Hold Formation for maximum cohension.

    Any unit pike or otherwise caught by cavalry whilst moving or in the flank or rear or even in a shallow formation should suffer such crippling morale penalties as to almost guarantee a rout.

    But,(and this is the crux)if a unit of mounted knights charges full tilt inot the front face of a steady pike unit it should not have a hope in hell of succeeding and beefing up the combat attack bonus of the knights would create just such an anomaly.

    So, I say yes make it easier for cavalry to rout badly managed infantry but don't turn them into four legged tiger tanks.

    [/QUOTE]

    Well cavalry shouldnt be invincible and ofc changes should not create anomalies like you describe could happen.

    It should be the dominant unit on the battlefield as I see it was during a good part of the Middleages. And by that I dont mean a unit type that crushes eveything in its path. But I just want it do be defeated just like it was defeated back then and not like it is in MTW now.

    Should a 200 florin pike unit be able to stop a 1100 florín Lancer if the pike is stationary and in hold formation? I dont think it should do it all the time..thats what you have the swiss pikes and armoured pikes for. BUT it should have a good chance to stop the Lancers.

    I really dont know much about late medieval (Swiss) pikes versus cavalry so Im no expert. So if anyone know anything about some specific battles or some book references that would be great.....or maybe I already have the book(s)... but glorious battles in MTW are more important at the moment heh

    CBR


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