Vices and Virtues

[Tirpitz]

I was recently playing through a campaign with the Italians that was going very smoothly, I had managed to stay friendly with the Holy Roman Empire and take Naples and Serbia for their trade income and gold respectively, when i ran into abit of a snag. My 2nd Doge was fathering almost nothing but hedonistic perverts! Three out his four sons had the Perversion vice and the -4 piety that goes along with it. Kind of complicated the strategy i had lined up later in the game, which consisted of staying buddies with the Pope and launching crusades against Egypt.

Anyways, im just wondering if there are any specific triggers for vices and virtues? Some of them are obvious (Skilled Attacker, Retreats Often, Steward, Occasional Mercy, Butcher ect) while others almost seem like they are assigned randomly (Alcoholic, Educated, Honest, Sybarite, Lazy, Incest, Argumentative ect)

Any help would be greatly appreciated

[drone]

Some VnVs do have triggers, some are random. The VnVs that heirs get when they mature are a bit of a mystery. I think many of them depend on the size of the kingdom and the VnVs and general competence of the faction leader.

I think most of the VnVs that heirs/generals acquire as they age have triggers, either due to their actions/inactions or side effects of the empire's success. Jxrc put together a nice PDF with trigger observations in this thread (last post). I haven't had a chance to update the VnV wiki page yet with the info though.

Welcome to the .Org, Tirpitz!

[Tirpitz]

Thank you very much drone, interesting reads. I guess there is no real surefire way to prevent heirs from picking up negative vices, but that wikipage is a very useful resource.

Ill just have to train up an assassin to 3 or 4 stars and snuff out my next in line, my Doges second son is a numerate hedonist, not exactly ideal qualities in a leader but ill take it

[sharpshooter]

Ah, VnV's - the mysterious VnV's. It's a big subject. What I have to say is based on many many observations, so is considered, but naturally isn't guaranteed as 100%. Anyone, please correct me if I'm way out. My strong impression is that the AI supports a style of play - minimalist and chivalrous, and macho.

Your problem with Hedonism and Perversion was probably from your alliance strategy, especially staying allied to the HRE, a natural enemy. I'm guessing the AI calculates you're passing up opportunities in order to keep things "going smoothly".

Hedonism results from wanting "the easy life", i.e. not taking opportunities for conquest, and from accepting or trying to make alliances with states you could be fighting. Hedonism evolves into Sybarite if you keep this strategy up.

Perversion seems to come from trying to ally with people who should be rivals. For example, as the Italians, you shouldn't ally with the HRE or the Byzantines in particular, and if you do you should take the first opportunity to get out of it. I've also wondered if Perversion also comes from changing the presented build strategy for a territory. For example, as the Italians the build strategy for Venice should be for knights and the offices of state, not commercial.

The HRE wants Venice and the other Italian states that once belonged to the empire historically. Again, historically the Doge of Venice hijacked the 4th crusade to sack Constantinople, against the Pope's instructions. He didn't seem to mind being excommunicated as a result. This event fatally weakened the Byz empire, which never recovered even though they retook Constaninople some 50 years later.

If you were given opportunities to break your alliance with the HRE and didn't take them, or have been trying to ally with the Byzantines then you are both seeking the easy life, and perverting the the "natural order" of rivals. This may also include the Hungarians (since you have Serbia, which they want), the French, and the Spanish (who are natural rivals for North Africa). The Pope too is not a natual ally, and he will break the alliance at some point and attack Venice, or less likely Tuscany or Naples which you now have.

Planning to crusade to Egypt from the start is a difficult choice for the Italians. I'd guess you need some more intermediate steps. If you have Naples you should take Sicily, which is fabulously wealthy when developed and trading. Warning: this will increase the Pope's desire to break with you, which is guaranteed if Italy becomes successful. Crusade first to Tunisia and Algeria, which will make the Spanish hate you, and, of course, upset Egypt. The Spanish will probably try to leapfrog you by sending crusades to Egypt, mopping up your armies in North Africa along the way, and cutting you off from the rest of the middle east. So, once you start you need to have a couple of crusades ready. Moving quickly will also increase your chances of Killer Instinct.

The AI Italy uses its fleets to convoy troops to attack any rebel territory within reach, and to attack the weak. If unchecked they will take Scotland, Norway, Ireland and even Livonia like this while building up huge fleets. They often attack Spain - Valencia, Granada and Portugal are the first targets. This offers the player Italy one path. Another path is to attack north into Tyrolia and Austria (bringing Switzerland and Swiss Halberdiers within reach).

Heirs characteristics are very very hard to engineer. Some are easier - if you want lots of stars then do lots of conquest before the heir matures. I once got a series of 6, 7 and finally an 8 star heir when in continuous conquest late in an HRE campaign.

Of course, they are very important. Lots of vices = lower influence = lower loyalty of generals and territories. The default influence is 3. If your new king has good virtues and acumen then he'll get 4. If he has the worst vices and no acumen he'll get 2, regardless of ruling a huge empire. If my heir comes out with Strange, Drinker or Chinless Wonder I try to get rid of him by sending him on lone attacks, or to sack a castle alone. I refuse the ransom if he's captured. At worst, keep him in the king's stack, so that Strange doesn't become Cracked, or Chinless become Odd Number of Toes.

The VnV's you asked about are the harder to figure. My impression after 100's of campaigns is that many are based on the style of play. The AI rewards mimimalist and chivalrous behaviour, and punishes bullying and overdoing troops, money, building etc (do you really need a 4th Master Spearmaker, or to increase your profits from 40,000 to 50,000 florins per turn?) It is also, for want of a better word, macho. Always fight the invasion no matter the odds. Always sack the castle (which, done with minimal numbers, reduces the number of buildings destroyed compared to a big assault, or letting the castles fall).

Drinker is the result of building too many troops. The AI is minimalist, so one unit of Chivalric Knights is a lot as far as it is concerned. Lean and mean is the order of the day. Drinker evolves to Alcoholic if you keep building troops the AI thinks you don't need. If you've been getting Drinker for generals then don't build any troops for a round or two before the heir matures.

Materialist, Greed and Gluttony comes from making money you don't need - by taking territories you don't need and pushing your fleets out to trade with everyone (which also upsets the locals to see your ships of their coasts). This is a pre-capitalist society founded on power and glory, not finance. And, do you really need to take Corsica?

Lazy evolves from Pride. This comes from either not conquering when you have the opportunity, or from overwhelming the opposition by sheer numbers. The AI wants you to be chivalrous - give the enemy a chance. It mostly does the same. The numbers you invade with should be balanced against the force you are attacking. If you don't you may get Lazy from Pride, or it may evoke Chinless Wonder. On the reward side, if you attack with less than your opposition (which includes how powered up your troops are - so 5 units of Halberdiers vs 10 units of peasants is still not a fair fight) then you rapidly get the Skilled, Expert and Specialist Attacker virtues.

Incest comes from marrying your Princess to her brother, the heir. You can do this in desperation if no one will marry into your family, and was a historical feature (notably with the Merovingians, from a period a bit before this one). The AI will warn you that it's inappropriate, and if you go ahead then again, keep the Prince under the King's stack so it doesn't become public. Sometimes you can use it to increase loyalty of an about to rebel Prince who is far away, and can't be brought back under a higher starred general. (Having spies in all your territories will warn you about impending rebellions).

Honest is usually to do with alliances and intentions. You refuse to ally with someone you intend to attack, and the Honest pops up. You don't attack an ally who is vulnerable, and there it is. Note, Most Honest, the evolution of this, reduces acumen. Politics is, after all, a dirty business.

Argumentative seems like a prompt to attack in a certain direction. A general nearby a neutral neighbour will suddenly get this, or an unstarred general suddenly gets Famously Brave. It may be when a new conquest gives you a border with a new neighbour, probably neutral. Sometimes it pops up when 2 high starred Princes land on the same territory, but I don't know if this one is chance.

Educated. I believe you need to have built a Church first (likewise for Eloquent). It comes from following the AI style - much of which is counter-intuitive. Attack a territory (with less than their numbers). Sack the castle. Immediately remove the starred general and reduce to the garrison to just enough to keep it at 120% Very Low. (Of course you have a spy to drop in the newly conquered territory, preferably your main man).

Don't build anything in frontier territories bordering enemies (including the rebels if enemy). Fight over them instead. Reduce the number of troops on your borders. Don't have big stacks everywhere. If the neighbour is going to attack he will anyway. One large army placed behind 3 border territories is better than 3 big armies on each territory. If you're not building anything there is nothing to lose.

Educated then seems to come often - including the positive evolution to Well and Highly. Keep building the church buildings too - I dedicate one territory to the Church, Monastery, Reliquary progression, and build a Cathedral as soon as I can. This brings lots of Eloquents too.

Having said all that, there does seem a random element. Not completely random. Conditions must be met first (for better or worse) and then there seems to be a percentage that the VnV will appear. If not this round then eventually.

The Approachable, Friendly and Charming series seem to come from putting your emmisaries in available locations, or your king in a port. Use the agents to be available and approachable. (The king is an agent - move him carefully. Try bringing him to a border territory to see what happens.) Example, if attacking next an ally or neutral then put an emissary on his border territory where his troops are. Usually he won't increase his troop numbers then, while otherwise reinforcements will rush in.

Blackmailer comes from putting spies, assassins and religious agents on other's territories. Emissaries and Princesses are ok, others are not.

Pride is the one I find most difficult to pin down. Sometimes it seems to come from building on a border with an enemy, sometimes from duplicating buildings in several territories, and sometimes from retraining troops to upgrade them. I hate it (unless in an unstarred general, of course). If you get Pride for, say, a Chivalric Man at Arms, then put him under a higher starred general and keep him there, so it doesn't evolve to Lazy.

As I said - VnV's are a big subject, and closely related to game style. I did some posts about this a few years back on the official site (which also has lists) and no agreement was reached. Hopefully there has been some progress!

:)

[gollum]

I dont dispute your intuition sharpshooter - after all easily traceable v'n'vs like battlefield related ones do have clear targets that are related to things that happen during play (coward etc).

However, it would be hard to conclude for many of those you mention, although i would have guessed that treasury, diplomatic relations, trading status, policy,a ggressiveness relative to neighbour strength etc may be triggers to v'n'vs.

Its not clear if however all of them can be traced back deterministically to events or a semi-random (or even random!) element as mentioned by Drone is involved. Its possible that the truth may be between the two views ie both play a part.

In this light i think that a number of your conclusions can be disputed - for example i doubt that the medieval TW AI makes decisions on the number of Chivalric Knights built - although i dont discount the possibility.

And yes, welcome to the .org Tirpitz!

[drone]

In my experience, the best solution/preventative is to continuously groom your heirs. Use your heir in campaigns, get lots of stars and good attack characteristics. When he ascends the throne, his offspring should be better, with fewer vices. Repeat with his heir, rinse, lather, repeat...

[Vantek]

EDIT: Accident >_< Delete this?

[Vantek]

I have to say whoever came up with the VnV is a comedic genius. My favs:

There are serious doubts about his courage in the face of the enemy. Reports of him screaming like a girl as he departed the field are not too exaggerated. His men are not inspired.

Most men manage to have eight great-grandparents, but this man has been badly short-changed!

This man's habits of dancing in moonbeams, painting his servants blue and sucking horseshoes has lead some to suspect he may be unbalanced.

Convinced that he has been made pregnant by an elephant, this man inspires nothing except pity and contempt in equal measures among his followers.

And then of course the Truly Pious Atheists, Famously Brave Cowards, Murderous Gentle Knights and so forth...

[Captain Fishpants]

I have to say whoever came up with the VnV is a comedic genius. <snip>

Well, thanks.

[HopAlongBunny]

I think sharpshooter's observations are pretty good; there does seem to be some connection between playstyle and V&V's. Of course there is a lot of random noise in the game too, so hard to say for sure.

Jxrc's zip files seem to sum up most of what we know or suspect about these traits: recommended reading.

And my thanks to Captain Fishpants for providing memorable descriptions for my family of loons

Welcome to the .org Tirpitz !

[gollum]

Originally posted by HopeAlongBunny
And my thanks to Captain Fishpants for providing memorable descriptions for my family of loons

Count me in in that - i think it must have been the good Captain that wrote most of the v'n'vstext (and probably other such as the unit cards as its fairly uniform in style within MTW but also say in RTW- but maybe not M2 that was made by CA oz) in uk made CA games. Kudos.

[Vantek]

Well, thanks.

Hahahahaha awesome!

Are you as much in the dark as us when it comes to knowledge of what triggers these gems of your creativity to be imposed upon our generals?

[gollum]

Originally posted by Vantek
Are you as much in the dark as us when it comes to knowledge of what triggers these gems of your creativity to be imposed upon our generals?

Most likely; apparently the people that understand even less than fans how the code is related to the mechanics are game designers

[Captain Fishpants]

Hahahahaha awesome!

Are you as much in the dark as us when it comes to knowledge of what triggers these gems of your creativity to be imposed upon our generals?

These days, yes. Medieval was a long, long time ago and there have been (a) more than 700,000 words since then to keep me busy; (b) a bunch of tech trees and units; and (c) a whole load of other design work. I don't even think I have the old trait files any more, as I've just spent time looking for them; probably they were on one of the old dead servers. I also have the suspicion that the triggers might have been hard coded rather than being separated out into data files in which case I would never have had the relevant files.

Most likely; apparently the people that understand even less than fans how the code is related to the mechanics are game designers

That's absolutely right. We know absolutely nothing. It's a wonder we find the office most days, or our desks. Gosh. Thanks for your words of wisdom.

[caravel]

Hello Captain Fishpants,

Your posts here are much appreciated and any info at all you can offer about this old game would be great.

Thank you.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Captain Fishpants
That's absolutely right. We know absolutely nothing. It's a wonder we find the office most days, or our desks. Gosh. Thanks for your words of wisdom.

You are very welcome.

PS If willing and able check your pms.

[sharpshooter]

I want to second Asai's thank you to Captain Fishpants. Really, thanks very much for looking. I also second the comedy value. I can still chuckle at the Odd Number of Toes text.

Umm ... now I guess it's up to us in the forum to pin down triggers - or not. Is anyone interested? I read over Jrxc's excellent pdf mentioned in the earlier thread. Are there any plans to extend it?

On topic about VnV's and heirs, I'd agree with Drone that it's best to use them, and groom them in the campaign, so to speak. My single proviso to that is when it's the heir apparent, the next king, and they've got a potentially loyalty/influence dropping vice, like Strange, that you don't want to evolve to something worse. Then I'd keep them under the king if I couldn't get rid of them. I'm very careful when it's the next king that's maturing, but otherwise don't worry too much. For good heirs mostly I just hope!

@ Gollum - my remark about the Chivalric Knights was mostly jest, but, of course, the game does know every unit you've made, and running a script across that data is comparatively simple. I don't think it's Chivalric Knights specifically, but I do think the game counts Elite vs Ordinary. Please do feel free to dispute any of my conclusions. I'd welcome any discussion and clarification whether it fits with my ideas or not. I'm just really interested in working these things out.

That said, perhaps my style of posting makes me sound more certain than I am. It's really a percentage, which, for me, ranges from pretty sure (90%) to simply an impression (30%) that, say, making religious buildings unlocks Eloquent, which then needs further triggers. In my earlier post, some of the specific things I said range from "pretty sure" (90%) for Drinker, getting stars for heirs, and gaining the skilled attacker line, to "impression" (30%) for Perversion or "I think" (50%) for Hedonist.

Some of these are pretty easy to test - Drinker is quite easy. So I'll use Drinker as my example - for trigger and way to test it.

Drinker
Trigger = producing too many troops (perhaps a ratio of 3 units to each territory held)

Test
- Quicksave (Ctrl+S) before each end of turn
- when Drinker appears in any general, reload (Ctrl+L) and cancel all troop production for that round

Predicted Outcome
- Drinker disappears

ReTest
- reload and produce troops in several provinces
- Drinker reappears

Do this as many times as you like.

Warning: testing heirs for Drinker
I think - 70% - that the game logs when you do Quicksave and Reload, and may start producing worse and worse outcomes. For example, when I've been testing heirs characteristics if I reload more than once or twice it seems to spiral downwards. Even if I started testing Weak Principles in the end the options become Strange or Chinless, and it simply alternates between the 2. Weak Principles doesn't come back. With Drinker it seems you get one chance to cancel it out, and if you've been getting a run of Drinkers beforehand it might be too late.

Anecdotal Evidence
When I first "mastered" the game - or rather, was able to guarantee winning, I made stacks of troops, with big armies on all borders, and others assembling behind the scenes. I used to get Drinker all the time. Once an heir maturing in Rum got it, and I wondered if it was a developer's idea of a joke.

Since I changed to a minimal troop production style I don't get it most campaigns. If I do get it once I immediately stop production and trim a few units that aren't doing anything. If a maturing heir seems vulnerable I don't produce troops for a couple of rounds before-hand. I can't remember the last time I had Drinker appear in an heir, but it's not for many many campaigns.

Other Evidence
Check the VnV's of the royal family in other factions that are producing lots of troops. The HRE, England and Spain seem particularly likely to get it.

Warning: AI's view of "enough" is very small
My take on the AI's idea of "enough" seems to be very very small compared the sizes of armies I used before. Maybe it's a ratio like 3 units per territory held. It doesn't help if you're the Russians, and when Drinker appears after the 5th Halberdier trots out you say "the Mongols are coming, the Mongols are coming". It doesn't seem to care.

General Stuff
For testing, the rub comes when the game style is involved, which I think it is for Drinker. People usually have good reasons for their strategies and are reluctant to change them ... me especially. I have once or twice found myself arguing with decisions the AI has made (once or twice ???) It seems logical to keep making troops if you can afford to keep them. At first I found myself reluctant to scale down.

In the original Shogun TW there was an old Japanese geezer that you could ask for advice. He would say something incredibly cryptic. The only thing he said I ever understood was "why build an army twice?". The principles of Shogun were supposedly based on Sun Tzu's "The Art of War", which came as a pdf on the game disk. This guy was supposedly the embodiment of the principles.

I believe the old Japanese chap has turned into the VnV engine in MTW. The VnV engine then seemed to become, in particular, the followers in RTW, and Drunken Uncle was one of them. You can't get rid of him. I suspect the VnV's follow the Art of War's principles. I only thought of this when it clicked that Drinker seemed to be about number of units.

I also think that these type of VnV's may have more than one trigger. It may be that first a condition is set, then there's a percentage chance of the VnV appearing per round. Or it may be that once one thing is set to true then another must also be set to true to trigger the appearance. So, with Perversion as the example, I've associated it with choice of alliances, with changing a suggested build strategy, and possibly with retraining troops, e.g. if you retrain a part unit with a Valour of 1 to a full unit with a Valour of 0.

Next Steps
I'm happy to tackle any VnV's especially if someone has a suggested trigger and a way to test it. We could try the ones Tirpitz asked about to start this thread - Perversion and Hedonism.

Personally I'm interested in Pride (one suggested trigger = building on provinces that border an enemy)

Is anyone up for this?

[gollum]

Originally posted by sharpshooter
Is anyone up for this?

eeerm... maybe not

Nice effort sharpshooter.

[Jxrc]

I read over Jrxc's excellent pdf mentioned in the earlier thread. Are there any plans to extend it?

Well thanks but I have to point out that it is based to the guide made available by Drone ...

Once I can spare the time, I will modify it slightly in order to:

- add the V&V of initial kings for all areas (and not only for the Early);
- confirm that "Killer Instinct" may be acquired through action - by killing the enemy general in hand-to-hand fight with your own general - but does not improve with the mere passing of time. I had a drinker/hedonist prince who got it after killing an enemy general (a former prince that had turned rebel). Some more testing will be done to see if killing any enemy general is enough or if you need to kill a prince or former prince. I had a few battles where the enemy general was in a peasant units and got killed instantly (thus before routing) when charged by my general but I did not get any V&V on those occasions. Likewise, I will need to make sure that any general can get it and not only princes or former princes.

Regarding the stuff about "Pride", I kind of agree that it seems to be triggered when a building is completed in a province adjacent to another's faction holding but it does not seem to be the only way in which it can be triggered so I would wait until some hard fact have been established to change something. It seems to me though that if I leave my Italian king in Venice, almost all princes that appear when a building is completed in that province will get the "pride" or "secret pride" v&v. I had the same sort of stuff in a Polish campaign during which I got most of Russia. I was building basic upgrades (spearmaker, watchtowers, etc...) almost every turn and almost all of my princes got that V&V.

With "drinker", I dont'know if it has something to do with the fact that you produce an unit in the province but will pay attention next time I play.

Same thing for Eloquent and Educated. Not sure about the church requirement but will look more closely.

Best regards,

[caravel]

Congratulations on your senior membership Jxrc.

[Jxrc]

Congratulations on your senior membership Jxrc.

Well thanks.

I had not noticed the change until you pointed it out.

I assume it does not change a thing but thanks to whoever took that decision. Always nice being promoted anyway.

Enough for now, I am feeling a sort of "secret pride" and will, in all likelihood, turn lazy quite shrotly.

[caravel]

I assume it does not change a thing but thanks to whoever took that decision. Always nice being promoted anyway.

It's an honourary title in recognition of that big bribe you sent me a few months back your contributions to the .org.

I believe you get a larger PM inbox, access to the Senior Members Legendary pr0n stash and beer at KukriKhan's place.

You also get to exclaim "Do you know who I am!!??" at random people in the street.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Asai Nagamasa
You also get to exclaim "Do you know who I am!!??" at random people in the street.

That was in fact the part i looked most forward too - it brought a much welcomed sense of suspense and adventure in my life.

[Jxrc]

You also get to exclaim "Do you know who I am!!??" at random people in the street.

Cool. I hope that if I put enough effort into it, I will get one of those really cool white shirts with longs sleeves to tie behind my back. Such a shirt might nevertheless make playing the game a bit too challenging for me but I am sure that I can get some hardcore player interested in that new "insane-man" set of rules