Infantry charges don't seem to work

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Ever since I started playing EB with version 1.0 I have never been able to kill anything in a charge. Infantry is what I'm referring to here. Whenever two lines or even individual units charge each other, they seem to complete the attack animation before they actually reach the opposition. Therefore no one ever dies in charges. After completing the animation, they then walk towards each other and commence fighting. This seems to hurt the Celtic and Germanic factions which rely more upon large charge bonuses. I was wondering if anyone else noticed this.

[DaciaJC]

I have noticed in Custom Battles that sometimes units will complete their charge before actually making contact with the enemy. Whether this is an issue with certain factions or units, I don't know. It never happens with my Getic units.

[Blxz]

Could be lethality. Units don't die every time a hit is scored against them. Could give you the impression that enough soldiers aren't dying on the charge.

[mountaingoat]

Ever since I started playing EB with version 1.0 I have never been able to kill anything in a charge. Infantry is what I'm referring to here. Whenever two lines or even individual units charge each other, they seem to complete the attack animation before they actually reach the opposition. Therefore no one ever dies in charges. After completing the animation, they then walk towards each other and commence fighting. This seems to hurt the Celtic and Germanic factions which rely more upon large charge bonuses. I was wondering if anyone else noticed this.

yeah i have no idea how this is meant to work in RTW engine .. i mean in MTW2 you can clearly see how the charge works (for infantry), though when playing EB i do not really see any "instant kills" upon the charge .. i am guessing that the charge bonus is added to the first few attacks of the charging unit/s?

[antisocialmunky]

1) Play Getai.
2) Form Brick, Alt + Click behind enemy.
3) Press 'R' when you reach arrow range.
4) Looools.

Optionally bring fire arrows or naked dudes.

[Knight of Heaven]

not it is very simple realy, just dont have the unit in defensinve mode, and charge. it will work better

[antisocialmunky]

You can do it in defense mode but it doesn't work all that well unless you actually want ot just run through a unit. :-D

[vartan]

In any case, you do not want guard mode on when charging. Not only will 99 percent of your units stay behind the front row, but they won't even flank. Talk about genius on the part of the company commander.

[satalexton]

Go see a bunch of drapnai/rhomphiaphoroi/tindanotae/gaesatae charge, THEN we'll discuss about the 'useless charge' issue.

I LOVE that chorus of *squishy* sounds when dozens of rhomphias turn them romans into hamburger in a melodic fashion.....

[Arkhis]

In all honesty, I normally don't use frontal charges, only, perhaps, to pin down a certain dangerous unit quickly.

When I'm playing the Gauls, I try to lure the enemy into a wall of spears (levies/gaelach (or however you spell it)), then use my sword-infantry to charge them in the back: the enemy is surrounded, will suffer severe casualties, and thus a morale drop.

If, at the same time, you manage to catch and kill the enemy commander, the morale drop might trigger a chain-rout.

Sometimes, I let my swordsmen empty their stack of javelins in the enemy's back first, which is also very effective!

This is basically hammer and anvil, but without too much cavalry (since Gallic Light ones are, imho, better used for other functions, and it'll be a while to get the heavies).

[Cute Wolf]

I still remember how the Roman general was killed when Xanthipphos with his Spartiatai Hoplitai charge him directly at the front... he was killed in the very first of the charge... maybe I should update my AAR with that...

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Hmmm, maybe its just me. In vanilla R:TW charges worked fine, high attack units might kill 10-12 enemies on the charge. I understand EB's higher defense values and lower lethality would change that. But even with my silver chevroned Gasaetae charging levies, they don't kill a single man from front or rear. They all complete the charge attack animation before hitting their foe. Meaning they charge, attack the air about 2 feet from their enemies, then walk into them and begin fighting.

Maybe this is a problem with my game alone...

Oh and my units aren't on guard either. I never use that unless I'm on defense and usually only with units like Alpine Phalanx, Mori Gaesum, or Iphikrates Hoplitai, aka units that start with spears and switch to swords or axes when the enemy closes.

[antisocialmunky]

I wouldn't worry about it. Its really units that are high lethality + AP that get the most out of charges.

Actually, how we replicate a charge online is with the technique I described above so you have your units stacked and the 'crowd effect' pushes units into the enemy line and out of position. At the same time you have 1-2 man attacking every 1 of their men. Add AP, fire, and the local outnumbering morale penalties - its really ridiculous against heavy infantry atleast.

[Julius Augustus]

I have noticed that charges are very weak also. I do have a possible solution though. Remember how in BI the sarmatian cavalry have swords and still have vicious charges, as they had the power_charge attribute. I think this could be applied to infantry. I will run some experiments tomorrow on if power_charge will increase the effectivity of an infantry charge, as I don't have time today. If it works, it could be applied to longsword units and other units that were famous for their charges.

[mountaingoat]

they only units i see making kills on charge are cav units ... maybe in vanilla , the infantry units would , but i have not played that for a while to test.(and i cbf).

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah, the only way I was ever getting my units to hit yours as hard as I was last night was by forcing my guys to run into your guys instead of a standard attack.

[mountaingoat]

hmmm so you ran your soldiers through mine? *cough*

[antisocialmunky]

Its only a run through if they actually run through instead of engage. That's why you don't do it with guard mode units if you click behind then they attack behind while non-guard mode units will engage if they run into something and will run through if you continuously click behind a unit after that. :)

[Julius Augustus]

I tested if power_charge works. It doesn't. I did a few battles with gaesatae versus lugoae, and the gaesatae charge only ever killed 0-3 men, with or without power_charge. A shame.

[seienchin]

Dont forget that the charge makes a malus on morale too. Maybe thats all infantry charges should do

[Tech Support]

Yeah, I don't think infantry charges were that deadly in real life either. You are running with pretty slow speed because of all the armor you are wearing, and a big shield is getting in your way of big swing. Also your one handed sword swung at its full speed with my body's momentum added may bounce off of enemy shield, armor, helmet, etc, and hurt my wrist more than enemy's body.

Hollywood makes chopping off someone's body so easy, but if properly armored, it should be harder than cutting a bamboo tree. And if you have tried to cut off a bamboo tree (or any wood with thickness of a person's arm) with your sword, you'll understand how one-handed weapon won't do much. I can see infantry charge working if the soldiers were swinging two-handed sword or a heavy mace or an axe.

[Azathoth]

Yeah, I don't think infantry charges were that deadly in real life either. You are running with pretty slow speed because of all the armor you are wearing, and a big shield is getting in your way of big swing. Also your one handed sword swung at its full speed with my body's momentum added may bounce off of enemy shield, armor, helmet, etc, and hurt my wrist more than enemy's body.

Hollywood makes chopping off someone's body so easy, but if properly armored, it should be harder than cutting a bamboo tree. And if you have tried to cut off a bamboo tree (or any wood with thickness of a person's arm) with your sword, you'll understand how one-handed weapon won't do much. I can see infantry charge working if the soldiers were swinging two-handed sword or a heavy mace or an axe.

Actually, a strike from a weapon during a charge has a better chance of penetrating armor than during static combat. A spear could even skewer a hoplite with a bronze breastplate. A warrior would be running at full speed during a charge, and unless you are covered with armor you could maintain this sprint for several hundred meters. I'm not sure what you mean by chopping off someone's body - you mean cutting them in half? That is possible with a longsword or falx, but you don't have to chop someone in half, just kill or seriously wound them to remove them from a battle.

[Vilkku92]

But still the main point of infantry gharge seems to have been getting enough momentum to knock the enemy off balance, break their formation and push them aside instead of getting more power behind your strikes.

[seienchin]

Cinetic energy= m/2 x v^2.
Speed is the most important factor in determing the power of an atack. It is questionable if people had the courage to storm into an enemy, but we know that for example the head on assaults of the dacian falxmen were really feared.

[antisocialmunky]

Yes, speed is important purely for the fact that you can change it easier than your mass.

[Watchman]

Not a dreadfully relevant thing for infantry weapons though, at least, in the sense of the man's charge meaningfully adding to the equation. Swung weapons get the most power from heavy overhand blows, and insofar as I understand anything of the vectors involved the speed at which the wielder's body is moving counts little for those. Thrusting weapons - mainly spears - probably actually *do* deliver some benefit, on account of the movement and attack vectors being essentially the same, but we're not exactly talking about couched cavalry lances here...

Also, healthy reality-check reminder here - whenever people have wanted a lot of raw damage output, they have pretty much invariably (all other things being equal) gone for heavier weapons, projectiles etc. Reason being, while it's obviously easier to give a lighter object a lot of speed, the lighter object also slows down and stops rather more readily nevermind now being that much more likely to be flatly deflected from an inconvenient obstacle.
Or to put it in practical terms, if you want to cleave someone from the shoulder to the hip - nevermind now through armour - you do *not* get a really light weapon that can be swung really really fast for the job; instead, you go for something big and nasty with lots of mass and momentum and leverage, usually a honkin' big cut-optimised sword, a battleaxe or some kind of choppy polearm.

[Nergalsmom]

It is with great frustration that I have read the contents of this thread. So much so that I felt it necessary to create an account simply to reply.

Let it be known to all that Europa Barbarum is the best game I ever played, and to me it doesn't really matter how charges are portrayed. However...

A lot of people in this thread seem to have a strangely misguided idea about the "ineffectiveness" of infantry charges. I know better than anyone the futility of internet discussion, so I don't seek to preach or convert, only to provide an alternate perspective.

Firstly, people who suggest doing something else than double-right clicking on the enemy to "simulate" the effects of a charge: Nifty trick, and I commend you for your ingenuety, but I think we can all agree that it would be better if we could just charge the way it's supposed to be done

And now, the main point: People who's opinion is that wearing a lot of armor, having a shield, or wielding a light weapon makes the benefits of charging near redundant. You're right about one thing: Having a heavy or two-handed weapon does increase the benefits of charging. Just grab a broom or the business end of a vaccum cleaner and charge towards the furthest wall in your hose to see what I mean. The increased reach and weight means that your running multiplies the power of the first swing. Barbarian infantry relies upon this simple fact. That's why they're armed with heavy weapons in the first place! Read the loading screen whith the description of how a celtic longsword was used for further reference.

Having a lighter weapon such as a one-handed spear or a gladius... In this case the power of your charge is highly dependent on wether you have a shield or not... and the shield is not in the way. You may have noticed that two units of similar quality (let us say, Caucausian Archers and Caucausian Spearmen) the one with shields has a higher charge bonus. This is naturally partly becase the latter is trained for close combat, and partly because they have spears instead of long daggers, but also because they have a shield. When charging with a shield and a light weapon, your goal is to barge in shield first, hopefully causing the enemy to stumble and expose himself, giving your first attack a higher chance of killing him. This is just common sense and represented in the game by a charge bonus to the first attack made. Grab a small desk and a kitchen knife, pretend you're a roman legionaire and just feel for yourself witch charge tactic seems most effective. Do this now.

About armor slowing you down... The reason you're charging in the first place is becase it's more difficult to predict the attack of an enemy running towards you than an enemy walking leisurly in your direction. Speed is not important, momentum is. Wearing armor increases your momentum, and allows you to put more power into your first swing as you do not have to be as afraid of exposing yourself to a counter-attack. These are some of the reasons why cataphracts have a high charge bonus, and I can assure you that the same principles apply to infantry.

Wethter frontal infantry charges were effective or not depended on the nature of the units in question. For example, a unit in loose formation armed with shields and axes charging a band of hoplites is pretty much doomed to fail. The benefit of their momentum is cancelled by the tight formation of the hoplites and the reach of their spears. Roman infantry can perform well both when charging and recieving charges, and units such as falxmen really must charge or counter-charge to be most effective, since they have no shields.

All of these points are very well illustrated in vanillia RTW, but for some reason don't work as well in EB. As already stated, it doesn't matter much to me as EB is such a great game anyway, but the fact remains that charges in EB are a little buggy and not always entirely realistic in effect or performance.

[Watchman]

PROTIP: the Celtic longsword on the average was actually about the same weight as the gladius hispanicus, if not slightly *lighter*. The difference in cutting power between the two comes from a little something called "leverage"...

[antisocialmunky]

And are swung around, and have longer reach....

[Watchman]

Good luck delivering an effective cut with *any* sword without "swinging it around".