How to win as Oda?

[ReluctantSamurai]

I've already quit Oda 1580 on expert twice.

This was what I was referring to earlier when I mentioned patience. You are surrounded by enemies who all want your head and are forming alliances to get it. Expect to be on the defensive at first. You absolutely MUST hold Mino against the Takeda/Tokugawa alliance. If Mino goes, the whole interior of Oda's position becomes open to attack.

Guns...guns...guns. Learn how to use them, and use them effectively. As has already been mentioned, use the Oda ashi bonus to crank out high honor ashi with +3 weapon bonus (Oda 1580 starts with +3 dojo) in Owari. They will save your butt, early on. On expert, the AI will be like a rabid dog that just won't let go.

My suggestion is to abandon Hida, at first. You don't have enough cavalry to defend your flanks and funnel the attackers into the valley towards your center. Hida is of no economic importance, anyway. Defend Mino!!! A normal defense of Mino is easy by camping on top of either hill and waiting for the attackers to come to you. But with two armies to deal with at once, and the cavalry-heavy Takeda, this is difficult the first year. I would suggest you take the wooded hill at the left-rear of the map with your ashi tucked into the woods on both flanks. Place your teppo on the hill just below the wooded area....they have a good firing line-of-sight from there. Make Imagawa's BFN your first priority...they will wreak havok with your teppo otherwise. Once they are routed or killed, take out Takeda's heavy cav with your ashi. You have your 5-star heir to lead, so they will hold if not flanked. Crank out teppo and ashi in Owari, and keep feeding them into Mino. Use the +1 bonus for Yamashiro to crank out YS to help bolster your line troops. Eventually, the onslaught will weaken and you can go over to the offensive.

Read over the AAR from my last Oda 1580 campaign (Nobunaga's Ambition) to see just how aggressive it can get. There are other fine AAR's from the past to read as well.

Keep trying until you master it. I know how frustrating it can get.........I was too until I learned to play defensive and wait for the right moment to strike.......

[TWD]

Well put, TWD, and welcome to the Org/Sword Dojo. I am not the master ashi user here, but I do use them for 1) garrisons, 2) maintaining parity with enemy troop numbers on my borders to dissuade attack, and 3) arrow fodder on bridge assaults or in attack vanguard escorting shock troops as you described. Only in the Oda campaigns do I use them in combat often, but this may be because I got used to not using them at all online (they were forbidden because early on, players discovered that you could honor/upgrade them up to level 7-9 and make them "Super-Ashis," which could defeat just about anything for the koku, and broke the combat system).

You are using the Huge setting for unit size? I'd not considered the point you make that when using this setting, ashis are the only combat unit you can produce in a single turn. This is very interesting and something I will take advantage of when I finally get off my butt and play a Huge unit game (I play the standard unit size; that's what we almost always used in multi-player so I got used to it).

Thanks for the greetings :)
I'm glad my post gave you ideas for a new strategy but, no, I don't play with 120men units. I can see how pumping 480 Ashis a year out of a single castle is appealing, though.

My point was mostly economical :
Without Ashigarus, you start the game either teching or producing troops, especially if you're not playing Oda. I do hate having a sword dojo that does not produce troops.
With Ashigarus, you can both develop your infra and train troops. Whatever the clan (except maybe for the Uesugi&Takeda) I now systematically start with 2 Ashis in the starting castle.
As usual with Ashigarus, the strategy gets stronger with Oda and lasts longer.

--> Ashis allow a powerful rush because of the limited starting koku supply (expert difficulty). And... a successful rush snowballs into a won game.
I'm sure many do better, but as an illustration, here's the state of the game for SJ campaign Oda save I have.
Summer 1636. All clans are alive. War with Imagawa, Mori, Hojo & no alliance :
Annual income : 8200 ; Profit : 6500.
Western frontier : Harima, Yamashiro --> raids on Mori to soften him.
Eastern frontier : Shinano (Shinano !) & Musashi (Musashi !).
Fortress in Owari (but no farm, yet), fortress in construction in Totomi, where there is also a Sword dojo --> this was accomplished almost exclusively with outnumbering ashis and some archers. Now No-Dachis come online.
I don't have an armoury, yet (I said I was sure many did better, right ?)

It should be stressed that Oda, in the SJ campaign, starts with a 1000+men total army AND a very large farming income if he secures Ise and Yamashiro. Provided you mass your men under your Daymio's command or your heir's, you can storm any direction you want. Personally, I target the kokus then whoever looks like a future danger.


I have no experience of the later campaigns. I imagine Ashis become less effective :
1- against a human player ;
2- as the tech level rises (but they allow a rush which, in turn, prevents rivals to rise their tech level...).

[ReluctantSamurai]

Oda 1580, while it has some things in common with earlier campaigns, is also vastly different. The first major change is that everyone's infrastructure is quite well developed right from the start, and there are two other clans besides the Oda who are Christian and therefore have access to guns.

So you will be facing BFN from Tokugawa, cavalry with gold armor upgrades from Takeda, Nodachi and Kensei with +3 attack bonus and teppo from Shimazu, lots of monks from Mori, and....if you haven't disabled the feature, geisha within a decade or so from Hojo.

So yes, while the ashi still help to get the economy off the ground, and help to bolster the line during the initial onslaughts, they are not nearly so effective against guns and gold armor cavalry. I still have several ashi in my armies well into the 1580 camp despite the lessening of their effectiveness. They are usually have been recombined from very high honor depleted units and usually are garrisoned in Owari.

[Jef Costello]

I took yamashiro, and held it for a fair while and I took mikawa and totomi (I burned Totomi down because I wasn't sure if I could hold it).
I lost Hino and retook it and I also took Wakasa.
Now Shimazu just hit me with 5000 troops in wakasa! I retrested to save my army and hopefully he'll split his forces a bit. I threw a few units at border provinces to distract him as well. Hojo and Takeda are fighting over western japan (I forgot I took the province southeast of Musashi) Tokugawa is broken after I took his provinces from him, he's alive in hizen and might be hanging on to some other provinces. Shimazu has taken the western half of Japan and is powering towards me.
Also Iga (?) will only produce shinobi and cavalry even though I have all the buildings necessary to produce YS, naginata etc. They can be queued but they are never produced.

ReluctantSamurai - thanks for the advice, Tokugawa's BFN were difficult. They are invisible to my teppo until they are too close to be fired upon. I managed to destory most of them in one big battle, I lost a lot of men but when I remembered that he'd lost over 100 BFN I felt better :)

[DEB8]

[QUOTE=ReluctantSamurai;2477437] You absolutely MUST hold Mino against the Takeda/Tokugawa alliance. If Mino goes, the whole interior of Oda's position becomes open to attack.

Agreed. Personally, I find this province the best to defend ( after the bridge provinces ). I have not lost a battle here to date since siting my army (as below).

Defend Mino!!! A normal defense of Mino is easy by camping on top of either hill and waiting for the attackers to come to you.

I use the right hand hill, and line up behind the central ridge, between the "valley" and the wood. Most of the left flank is protected by the impassible valley wall and the rest of the left flank and the rear of the army is protected by a steep slope. The enemy also has to climb a steep slope before it can reach the "plain" to the front of your troops, as it usually advances to the "valley" mouth before moving to engage you. Don't come off of this hill when pursuing either.

[DEB8]

Indeed in 1.12 ... and Ashigaru take 2 turns to build.

Is this correct? If so how and when does it apply?
A Unit setting of Huge ( 120 men ) appears to take one turn only for Ashigaru whilst others take two turns. The normal ( 60 man ) unit setting takes one turn for ALL units.

I haven't played MI/WE for ages now, so can't remember how long they take to build there.

I have only ever used a 60 man unit setting. They take the same time here as in the older STW.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I use the right hand hill, and line up behind the central ridge, between the "valley" and the wood.

Just about the same spot I use. But I find it a bit easier, for the first attack, to defend to the left-rear. There's just not enough cavalry, at the start, to prevent a flanking maneuver by Takeda's cav. The biggest advantage for this site is that your muskets can begin to take the enemy under fire from a longer distance, whereas on top of the hill you have to wait until they crest. Of course your archers have no such problems

I've used every and all favorable terrain spots, even the left-hand hill, which takes a little more micro-managing but still effective.

Don't come off of this hill when pursuing either.

Sage advice! The first time my YC got caught on the downhill side of reinforcement cavalry arriving, was the last time I ventured that far (unless it's definitely the last wave of attackers).

[DEB8]

Just about the same spot I use. But I find it a bit easier, for the first attack, to defend to the left-rear. There's just not enough cavalry, at the start, to prevent a flanking maneuver by Takeda's cav.

Most of the battles I have fought at this position have had "head on" attacks rather than flanking attempts.
So I have had no such problem to date. Sometimes the AI will attack through the valley with some units, but usually NOT cavalry!!

The biggest advantage for this site is that your muskets can begin to take the enemy under fire from a longer distance, whereas on top of the hill you have to wait until they crest. Of course your archers have no such problems

I tend to avoid using teppo here anyway. I prefer them in flater provinces! That said , I tend not to use many anyway - the AI always seems to generate wet weather in the battles when I use them!!

[gollum]

Version 1.12 (original STW with 1.12 patch without MI) is different in many respects to STW warldord/MI (that are the same) DEB8. In there ashigaru in huge take 2 turns to build, infrastructure takes twice as long and costs twice as much to build and Naginata have their original cool skin and not the yari sam immitation one. Also battle stats are different (better in terms of balance imo - but the stats in warldord/mi can be modded), battlefield ninja, kensai and naginata cav do not appear as do not the drill dojo and the battlefield ninja dojo. Also emmissaries cannot bribe and there aren't any faction reappearances and historical campaigns - only the sengoku campaign.

[ReluctantSamurai]

So I have had no such problem to date. Sometimes the AI will attack through the valley with some units, but usually NOT cavalry!!

A lot depends on who initiates the attack. If it is Imagawa, then his forces start in the valley and Takeda's begin on his left flank which puts them in a position to try to turn your right flank, which I've found the AI tries to do.

If Takeda initiates the attack, then he's the one in the valley with Imagawa on his left. That has it's problems, too, because those BFN have a heyday in those two patches of forest on your right flank.

I use muskets, not arquebus, so they still fire in the rain....just not as effectively. But the morale impact is the biggest factor in using guns (although they can rack up the kills) and this is unaffected by rain. Guns can do well even in hilly provinces. Give me a couple of honor 5 teppo just below the crest of that monster hill in Shinano and I will lay you out a carpet of samurai bodies to walk down the hill upon

[DEB8]

Version 1.12 (original STW with 1.12 patch without MI) is different in many respects to STW warlord/MI (that are the same) DEB8.

As previously stated, I have both - so I am aware of that...

In there ashigaru in huge take 2 turns to build, infrastructure takes twice as long and costs twice as much to build

As previously stated; I asked the question as I have not yet played with any unit size ( on either game ) at other than 60. Another poster appears to say Ashi's take 1 turn on hugh and Sami's 2 turns. So one of you would appear to be incorrect...

I have had a look at my MTW 1.12 at each of the various unit sizes :-

60 & 80 man units take 1 turn to build. 100 & 120 man units take 2 turns to build ( with Shinobi's, Ninja's & Emissaries taking 1 turn ).
Ashigaru's take the same time to build as Samurai etc. at each level of unit size. I took your comment as : Ashigaru's take two turns to build ( and the others take 1 turn ). Perhaps I was wrong.

TWD : Having reread your reply to Masamune's "misunderstanding" re the production of Ashigaru's, I now understand your comments. I presumed the same as Masamune in my comments above and in earlier posts. Apologies.

...battlefield ninja, kensai and naginata cav do not appear as do not the drill dojo and the battlefield ninja dojo. Also emmissaries cannot bribe and there aren't any faction reappearances and historical campaigns - only the sengoku campaign.

Again, I am aware of these things...

[DEB8]

A lot depends on who initiates the attack. If it is Imagawa, then his forces start in the valley and Takeda's begin on his left flank which puts them in a position to try to turn your right flank, which I've found the AI tries to do. If Takeda initiates the attack, then he's the one in the valley with Imagawa on his left. That has it's problems, too, because those BFN have a heyday in those two patches of forest on your right flank.

You appear to be referring to a joint attack by Imagawa & Takeda. To date I have only had to deal with single clan attacks ( thank God ). I'll bear it in mind though for the future.

I use muskets, not arquebus, so they still fire in the rain....just not as effectively.

Ah, I had forgotten that muskets are better in MTW/WE 1.02 ( when compared to MTW 1.12 ) re rain. Perhaps I'll get some in due course.

A Question:

So far in my game, the Dutch have not arrived. It is rather unusual considering the late date. I note also that neither my clan or the last remaining AI clan ( Takeda ) have built any ( traced ) Portuguese Trading Posts. Is it possible the Dutch only "arrive" after a Portuguese Trading Post has been built by someone?

[ReluctantSamurai]

I can't recall any recent Oda 1580 campaign that I've played where they weren't allied. I've always had to face them both in Mino within the first year.......and every year thereafter until I kill one of them off

AFAIK, the appearance of the Dutch has no relationship to the Portuguese showing up. I could be wrong, tho'.....

I never wait for the Dutch anyways. I take the first Portuguese offer and run with it until I have a gun factory and muskets.

[Togakure]

IIRC, the Dutch appear like clockwork in 1561 in the SJ campaign, somewhere on the map in the west. Not sure about the added campaigns in WE. if you're playing an Eastern faction however, you won't likely see them until much later.

I did a quick search to see if anyone else noted the date the Dutch arrive and found these:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/451526-sh...ion/faqs/21099

Search on 1561 within the document to find the statement.

This, I noted, is hosted on the Mizu server somewhere:

http://files.mizus.com/files/STW_WE/.../Preview2.html

So I think it's a safe bet to assume that the Dutch arrive in the game somewhere in 1561, though you might not see them until later depending on what clan you are playing and where your empire is on the map.

[DEB8]

I can't recall any recent Oda 1580 campaign that I've played where they weren't allied. I've always had to face them both in Mino within the first year.......and every year thereafter until I kill one of them off

Ah, I see the misunderstanding. I am not playing the Oda 1580 campaign. Just a standard campaign.

[DEB8]

IIRC, the Dutch appear like clockwork in 1561 in the SJ campaign, somewhere on the map in the west. Not sure about the added campaigns in WE. if you're playing an Eastern faction however, you won't likely see them until much later.

Currently playing ODA in the standard campaign. The year is now two or three years past 1574.

[DEB8]

AFAIK, the appearance of the Dutch has no relationship to the Portuguese showing up. I could be wrong, tho'.....

To clarify my question, as it may have been misunderstood :-

The Portuguese turned up a long long time ago in my current game and I accepted an offer to trade with them. However, I have not built a Trading post until recently ( approx. 1575 ). It is now ( approx.) 1577. Up to the date I built the Portuguese Trading post, the Dutch have never visted me ( or if the lack of messages is to be believed ), anyone else. Indeed, although I have captured or viewed ALL of the ports around the whole of Japan, I have not seen any Trading posts of any kind ( Portuguese or Dutch ). Also I have not witnessed any "teppo" units of any kind.

Therefore, it "appears" the Dutch will not arrive until :-

a) the Portuguese have arrived
b) only after a Portuguese Trading Post has been built.

Does anyone agree or disagree with my surmise? Historically, it seems
( to me ), to be correct.

N.B. If a Portuguese Trading post is built by someone before 1561 ( this is normally to be expected ), then the Dutch may well arrive at that date. In my game however, that was not the case.

[Togakure]

I disagree with your surmise. In a Sengoku Jidai campaign, I believe the Dutch arrive somewhere on the map in 1561, as I stated previously. You may not see them--ever--but that's when they arrive.

In your game I would guess it to be a fluke; you just never saw them. I've seen the Dutch arrive in 1561 exactly, again and again and again when playing Shimazu, Mori, Takeda, Imagawa, etc.. That, combined with documented observations of others on the 'net, convinces me beyond reasonable doubt.

But it doesn't matter ;). Enjoy the game.

[caravel]

The Dutch/Potuguese arrivals are indeed independent, hardcoded events. There is no relation between the two. They arrive at their fixed hardcoded dates and then start to travel the map dropping in at ports en route. This is why you will first meet their emissaries at different dates depending on which faction you are playing.

[DEB8]

The Dutch/Potuguese arrivals are indeed independent, hardcoded events. There is no relation between the two. They arrive at their fixed hardcoded dates and then start to travel the map dropping in at ports en route. This is why you will first meet their emissaries at different dates depending on which faction you are playing.

You state that the arrival dates are "Hard Coded". Fair enough. Is it possable for them not to visit you at all? I say that as it is now some 15 plus years since 1561 in my latest game, and I have not yet had a visit.
To date, I have never completed a game without a vist from the Dutch - but this one is fast going that way as I only have 3 provinces left to conquer. The only unusual factor in this game is that the very first Portuguese Trading Post ( anywhere by anyone ) was only built approx. 2 years ago.

A thought - the little ships that visit the Campaign map ports have red & yellow flags. Does anyone know if the Portuguese and the Dutch are represented by the same or different "ships". If the latter, does anyone know the different flag colours used.

[A Nerd]

If the latter, does anyone know the different flag colours used.

I don't know. I've never really noticed. I would guess the flags are purely decorative and not historic or representaive of the dutch or portuguese. I don't know what either flag looked like at the time so don't quote me on that.

[DEB8]

I have a second STW ( 1.12 version ) game, running concurrently with my previously refered to STW(WE) game. In both I am playing ODA ( full S.J. Campaign ). I have just had what I believe is the first ( I may be wrong ), video and message re Dutch Traders. The year is 1593 and the visit was at Hizen province. Note this was not an Emissary visit, just "first" contact.

[ReluctantSamurai]

As Asai has stated, the dates are hardcoded. You, as the player may not necessarily get an offer at that prescribed date, but they are showing up elsewhere, to be sure. This is why I never wait for them, anymore. You can have muskets (not just the arquebus) long before any other clan by accepting the first Portuguese offer and running with it. If your concern is for rebelliousness, then plan ahead and have shinobi ready to placate the populace. If you prefer having monks (although you can have both monks and guns) then I suppose you can wait for the Dutch.

I've stop using monks a long while back, except if I capture Kii or Kaga with fully developed dojo's, or if I'm playing Mori. The added benefit of having both cathedral and trading post income far outweighs the impact of monks, IMHO. I've had several campaigns where I wouldn't have survived without those two sources of income.

Just my 2koku on the matter;)

[DEB8]

As Asai has stated, the dates are hardcoded. You, as the player may not necessarily get an offer at that prescribed date, but they are showing up elsewhere, to be sure. This is why I never wait for them, anymore.

I recently finished my Oda (SJ) game (STW (WE) 1.02), with ALL provinces captured by Autumn 1579.

I have not had any Dutch Emmisary's visit me or seen a single Dutch ship visit ANYWHERE. Also, not one province that was captured had either a Dutch OR a Portuguese Trading Post in it and neither did any Watchtower or Border Fort spot one in an adjacent province before capture. Further, not one enemy army had a Teppo unit in it.

It would appear (IMHO) that the "Hard Code" has a percentage attached. The odds of failing a "die roll" for so long after 1561 (approx. 68 turns) may be low, but are apparently not impossable.

You can have muskets (not just the arquebus) long before any other clan by accepting the first Portuguese offer and running with it. If your concern is for rebelliousness, then plan ahead and have shinobi ready to placate the populace. If you prefer having monks (although you can have both monks and guns) then I suppose you can wait for the Dutch.

I have not built a Portuguese TP in any of my previous games, and only finally built one in the latter (approx.) 2/3 years of this last game. I prefer to await the Dutch. I hate those Catholics and I like using Ninja's on any Priests! I have never had a rebellion as I keep the Loyalty levels high - I never Tax over the normal rate and cut the Tax level if any province goes below 120% in the middle/ end game. Sometimes a bad or worse harvest will leave me without funds, but that's life. In truth, I should really save some funds when I get a good harvest or better, but there's always something I need to buy!

[ReluctantSamurai]

I prefer to await the Dutch. I hate those Catholics and I like using Ninja's on any Priests!

I couldn't care any less about the religious preference of the gaijin. They bring me guns and an offer to trade. Both give me an edge over my opponents. If that edge gets me to the Shogunate before anyone else, then I will take it. By taking the Portuguese offer, I have muskets at least 10 years before anyone else.

Oda would have your head on a pike to hear such talk!

Just kidding, of course

Sometimes a bad or worse harvest will leave me without funds, but that's life.

Maybe so, but string 5 or 6, or even 7 (I had 7 on one occasion) consecutive poor harvests and you will not even have enough koku for replacements, let alone for new units or construction. I prefer the certainty of getting 200 koku from each trading post, and 200 from each church when I have a cathedral.

[caravel]

Maybe so, but string 5 or 6, or even 7 (I had 7 on one occasion) consecutive poor harvests and you will not even have enough koku for replacements, let alone for new units or construction. I prefer the certainty of getting 200 koku from each trading post, and 200 from each church when I have a cathedral.

If you keep hiking taxes up in the autumn and leaving them low for the rest of the year you may see a lot more "poor" or worse still, "terrible" harvests. In my latest campaign I've just had 4 terrible harvests in a row and then remembered that hiking up taxes in this manner can cause it.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Terrible harvests? I've never seen one of those, and I'd rather not

Is this something that is peculiar to the original vanilla STW, or have I just been having the kind of luck I wish I had while in Vegas?

Bringing poor harvests by raising taxes in the fall is also something I've not heard of....

I never do that anyway....if I've set punitive taxes, I usually leave them to the point of rebellion.

Just goes to show you can play a game for nearly a decade and still have something new to learn.....

[caravel]

I've not seen a terrible harvest in STW/MI 1.02, but I've seen more of them than I want to in STW v1.12. I actually think they might have been removed from MI/WE.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I actually think they might have been removed from MI/WE.

That must be the case, then. The WE edition is what I've had from day 1, and considering the number of campaigns I've played over the last 10 yrs., I should have run into a 'terrible' harvest at some point........

[Yesugey]

Hey guys,

I went back my homecity to visit my parents last weekend, and I decided to play STW again on my old computer, after many years. I selected to play Oda 1580 - known as the hardest campaign.

It was a pleasure to back to the lands of Japan, and i was hell harder than any other TW game as expected. Because now I have so many rules which stricts me from using the tricks of the game:

* Re-play battles after you lost so many men is illegal.
* Re-play turns because of unexpected enemy moves are illegal. (Its allowed only if you forget to move something)
* The destruction of buildings, because of the threat of losing the province, is illegal.
* Suicidal armies walks through enemy territories and destroys enemy heartland is illegal.
* You have to accept the christianity in the same turn its been offered, if your clan was accepted it historically.
* Training counter-religion's units is illegal. (You cant train monks with Oda, and you must disband any, after accepting

Christianity.)
* Mass-Training non-specific units of your clan is illegal. (If you are Oda, you cant train Heavy Cavalry horde.)

With this rules, 1580 Oda is like impossible to win. But the fun is definite!

I really enjoyed my play.. As always, Takeda and Imaawa attacked Mino and defeated me. I lost all my provinces except Owari and the neighbour of it. (The one with the Cathedral.)
More dire thing is, even Rebels turned against me, which supposed to be a buffer between me and Mori & Shimazu. Yamashiro, and even my the inland provinces were plundered...

I have lost many battles, and all my heirs have been killed, except the best one. (Even he surrounded in small castle once.) BF Ninjas, Heavy Cavalries... But Musket fire prevailed! I like losing battles and provinces, because I have forgot the feeling since Rome TW.

Anyway after 2 days I had to back to Istanbul which I work there, and at the time I left the game, I was took all my provinces back, including the two key provinces, Shinano and Kawachi. It will be lots of fun to try to march on against two borders at the same time, struggling with Mori + Shimazu + Hojo + Takeda. (Imagawa and Uesugi are somehow about to disappear)

STW is definitely most enjoyable game of TW series, and struggling on all the front, while losing key provinces is such an excitement that no other TW games can be reached.