EB Online Tourney: July 2010 - Special Anniversary Edition

[Apázlinemjó]

Thanks again Apaz for collaborating today. We're done with the factional unit lists. There are 19 because Saba is unrestricted. Doesn't necessarily make them IMBA, just skirmishable and annoying on 36k. Get missiles.

No problem. Please add me to Pontos.

[Burebista]

Sign me up as Saka.

Ps . I am Ovidiuhtm but decided that this name is nicer:P

[vartan]

So far that makes 17 players and 3 Jury members. If you players make sure to leave the network before actually closing Hamachi I would much appreciate it as it would make my job ideally easiest (i.e. not having to kick out offline members).

[Tex]

Ptolemaioi 0 - 0 = 0
Freelancer Tex (what's your Guild name?) 0 - 0 = 0

i'm here!!!lol

[antisocialmunky]

What are the draw rules?

Also I may have some time to make some lists. Its not that hard. I think Lusto only have 1 factional Heavy Cav and the elits or pretty well marked.

What other factions did you want lists?

[The Celtic Viking]

Thanks again Apaz for collaborating today. We're done with the factional unit lists.

It would seem like they're all done already.

[vartan]

Lists are done. Saba isn't missing one, it doesn't need one. Draw rules are on the rules page on the site.

[Βελισάριος]

I'm in. Getai, just for the fun of it.

[WinsingtonIII]

Note: Do not place -H beside those units that are specifically named "horse archer" because these are automatically considered medium cavalry (and consequently are excluded form the heavy cavalry limitation rule).

We're counting all horse-archers as medium cavalry? Including the ridiculous super-heavy Sauromatae tank bodyguards and Cataphract Archers? Or are you only talking about those units that actually have the words "horse archer" in their name?

[vartan]

We're counting all horse-archers as medium cavalry? Including the ridiculous super-heavy Sauromatae tank bodyguards and Cataphract Archers? Or are you only talking about those units that actually have the words "horse archer" in their name?

Have you checked the website's factional unit lists at all? Look at the horse archers that are denoted as heavy, including my very own armoured ones. If you or anyone spots any that I've missed please let me know--we don't want heavy HA walking around in numbers greater than they should be!

[MisterFred]

I'd like to sign up to play with the awe-inspiring Saba.

Since they're not available, I'll just use the regular Saba instead. And this has nothing, honest, nothing to do with my protest at having to announce the use of elephants before battle. (Too big a penalty to warn the enemy to pick up 3 gund-i-palta and hard-counter the one unit that's one-third of your army's cost. IMO people just need to be aware they need to devote a full third of their army to stopping your elephants and not just pick up easy counters after a warning.)

[Jack Dionne]

A couple of questions. Is the Hamachi network for practicing purged daily?

I picked Baktria so does that mean I have to pick that faction for the whole tournament?

[vartan]

I'd like to sign up to play with the awe-inspiring Saba.

Since they're not available, I'll just use the regular Saba instead. And this has nothing, honest, nothing to do with my protest at having to announce the use of elephants before battle. (Too big a penalty to warn the enemy to pick up 3 gund-i-palta and hard-counter the one unit that's one-third of your army's cost. IMO people just need to be aware they need to devote a full third of their army to stopping your elephants and not just pick up easy counters after a warning.)

I'm awaiting a response from munky for an explication of a possible budget-booster for ele users.

A couple of questions. Is the Hamachi network for practicing purged daily?

I picked Baktria so does that mean I have to pick that faction for the whole tournament?

Quoting the EB Online site:

The EB Online admin reserves the right to purge the networks of all offline members at anytime, unannounced.

This is why there are many purges some days, and none other days. Ideally I could have a bot automatically kick members the second they go offline (actually, even more ideally, y'all would leave the network before shutting off Hamachi).

By pick a faction I mean pick one for the month's tournament. You can practice with whatever faction you desire, but pick one that you'll use for all your tourney battles for a certain month (in this case, July 2010). If you choose to sign up for another tournament, say August 2010 (when the time comes), then you can choose another faction, or the same one if you so desire.

[mountaingoat]

I'd like to sign up to play with the awe-inspiring Saba.

Since they're not available, I'll just use the regular Saba instead. And this has nothing, honest, nothing to do with my protest at having to announce the use of elephants before battle. (Too big a penalty to warn the enemy to pick up 3 gund-i-palta and hard-counter the one unit that's one-third of your army's cost. IMO people just need to be aware they need to devote a full third of their army to stopping your elephants and not just pick up easy counters after a warning.)

it is not often that difficult to "predict" if an opponent is bringing elephants to the field .. all you have to do is look at how much mnai they spent and how many soldiers they are bringing to the field , which can be viewed by all before the battle begins.

example

MisterFred total troops 500 mnai spent 28000

so i would be thinking .. ok .. he spent all of his money and only brought 500 troops ... AND he has an an elephant faction .. high chance of elephants .. ( adjust army accordingly ) .


edit: yes there are ways you can attempt to mask this

[Tex]

Can i Change faction?
I want to be Backtria

Thanks

[antisocialmunky]

What happens if I make an all infantry army against steppe and I kill all their infantry?

All he has is Kataphracts and I'm in a giant box formation to not die. I can't catch him but he can't kill me or surround me. Can we force a draw in that situation or make points awarded by jury since in that case I would win by our current rules(he can't surround me and if I did, I would attack him)?

Another thought was some sort of point system for the game: +1 for killing a general and +1 for winning the battle instead of strict win/loss.

[vartan]

There is only one point system. If you win, you gain a point. If you lose, you lose a point. This is to accommodate for the simple fact that people cannot and will not end up playing the same number of games as others. Your objective every battle? To win. Period. I don't care if you kill 20 captains, the general, or neither. You simply must achieve victory.

Victory Conditions
If your opponent has no cavalry and makes a phalanx box and you can surrounded it with your men, you win.
Your opponent has only cavalry, you outnumber them more than 2:1, and you are just chasing him around the map. If after 5 minutes your opponent does not attack, you win.

If you had a phalanx box,

Phalanx Box
A phalanx box is a formation of phalanxes wherein the phalanxes are put into a rectangular or other enclosing shape. For the technically inclined, a phalanx box is defined as an enclosing shape of over 75% phalanx units and at least 270 degrees of coverage.

and I surrounded you (that means I put units all around you, it doesn't require me to make a full circle with no gaps...), then I win. This is why the phalanx box is not banned. It's allowed because it gives you an opportunity to defeat it simply because you surround it (illustrating complete defeat for the army that is surrounded; historically, you would not want to find yourself surrounded...).

If your enemy has all cavalry forces because you defeated his infantry, and you clearly outnumber the horsemen (usually the case; if you are outnumbered by horsemen, then you will likely lose), and your enemy does not attack you but skirmishes his cavalry away from your forces for at least 5 minutes, then you win (as the enemy has not decisively defeated you, but simply simulates his retreat/forfeit).

[Burebista]

Here is the thing . I played steppe rules with Saka and i've played against KH. He had no cavalry , only spearmen and heavy bosphoran archers , he made them into a box in a patch of trees and just stayed there. I had 12 units of cavalry + many missile units but you can imagine that attacking him after the missiles were spent was pure suicide as even catas cant take face on Thorakitaii without losing more men than actually killing.
Sam ething happened vs romans. After i kill all their cav , general and missile units i get a legionaire hexagon on guard mode. Although i had the advantage in forces , i proposed a draw , which was refused on the motive that he is attacking by moving a unit towards my skirmishing infantrythen retreating it once every 4 minutes. You can imagine that after 1 hour i just exited as this is simply no fun.

I am seriously thinking Artillery or elephants now.Although they cost like 10 K+, i am tired seeing all kinds of closed geometrical forms of spearmen and legionnaires waiting for me to suicide.

PS : in the real world , wouldn't my HA just ran back to get some more arrows while my melee cavalry just stayed there surrounding them?

[Jebivjetar]

Here is the thing . I played steppe rules with Saka and i've played against KH. He had no cavalry , only spearmen and heavy bosphoran archers , he made them into a box in a patch of trees and just stayed there. I had 12 units of cavalry + many missile units but you can imagine that attacking him after the missiles were spent was pure suicide as even catas cant take face on Thorakitaii without losing more men than actually killing.
Sam ething happened vs romans. After i kill all their cav , general and missile units i get a legionaire hexagon on guard mode. Although i had the advantage in forces , i proposed a draw , which was refused on the motive that he is attacking by moving a unit towards my skirmishing infantrythen retreating it once every 4 minutes. You can imagine that after 1 hour i just exited as this is simply no fun.

I am seriously thinking Artillery or elephants now.Although they cost like 10 K+, i am tired seeing all kinds of closed geometrical forms of spearmen and legionnaires waiting for me to suicide.

PS : in the real world , wouldn't my HA just ran back to get some more arrows while my melee cavalry just stayed there surrounding them?

Why don't you take some melee infantry instead of misslile units only? Against armoured opponents i suggest you these nice fellows (as Saka you can have them):

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.ne...y&category=any

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.ne...y&category=any

IIRC Saka heavy hoplites are pretty good too!

[Apázlinemjó]

Here is the thing . I played steppe rules with Saka and i've played against KH. He had no cavalry , only spearmen and heavy bosphoran archers , he made them into a box in a patch of trees and just stayed there. I had 12 units of cavalry + many missile units but you can imagine that attacking him after the missiles were spent was pure suicide as even catas cant take face on Thorakitaii without losing more men than actually killing.
Sam ething happened vs romans. After i kill all their cav , general and missile units i get a legionaire hexagon on guard mode. Although i had the advantage in forces , i proposed a draw , which was refused on the motive that he is attacking by moving a unit towards my skirmishing infantrythen retreating it once every 4 minutes. You can imagine that after 1 hour i just exited as this is simply no fun.

I am seriously thinking Artillery or elephants now.Although they cost like 10 K+, i am tired seeing all kinds of closed geometrical forms of spearmen and legionnaires waiting for me to suicide.

PS : in the real world , wouldn't my HA just ran back to get some more arrows while my melee cavalry just stayed there surrounding them?

Honestly what do you expect? In mobility and firepower you outmatch the civilized factions, should they just stand there in a line waiting till you can hammer them? It is possible to break formations, I suggest you to check the replay of ASM vs Gamegeek2 match, where the latter was able to rout the spearmen box with the Sauro faction.

Edit: Here's the link for the replay

[mountaingoat]

this is why 1v1 sucks for the most part (IMO)... this would not happen so much in 3v3 ..

i agree that there are ways to break the box , and there are ways to attack the steppe army ... it just does not make for an awesome game most of the time.

[Burebista]

Don't get me wrong , i do not expect an infantry army to full out attack unless it feels that he has an advantage. I just want some sort of rule for a draw , in the case where the forces are equal but neither side feels that making a move will bring him victory. i just don't like the ideea that i am forced to charge heavy hoplites in front very much to my disadvantage or choose to stay 1 h or so looking 1 at another.

Let's be honest , in Carhae did the parthians full out charge into the ranks of the romans after they routed their cavalry? no . they brought more arrows. and cut their supplies until the romans saw that either they engaged the enemy ( we do have infantry you know) or die of hunger.

[antisocialmunky]

Honestly what do you expect? In mobility and firepower you outmatch the civilized factions, should they just stand there in a line waiting till you can hammer them? It is possible to break formations, I suggest you to check the replay of ASM vs Gamegeek2 match, where the latter was able to rout the spearmen box with the Sauro faction.

Edit: Here's the link for the replay

Well to be quite honest, I threw that game away after I moved out from my circle. I think the trees made a pretty big difference, he would have had a better chance without them and my archers wouldn't have been able to two shot cavalry to 50% before they got in cantabrian. Also in my experience, Indian archers are complete garbage in missile duels(I have no idea why, but they just can't kill other archers very well) but they are some of the mosti nsane melee light infantry in the game because they ahve AP knives. That would have probably helped you.

[Burebista]

Vartan , please move me (Burebista) to Baktria.

[MisterFred]

If you could surround them and their cav is dead, you won by tourney rules. Congratulations :)

[vartan]

Burebista, you are the victor in the scenario you described. You win because your enemy has not any supplies while you have unlimited supplies. The game does not represent this, unfortunately. You can have your men on all four sides of the enemy, and he is done. He may try to break through your containment, but if he does not succeed and you end up crushing him, you are the victor, again.

[Βελισάριος]

If it pleases the jury, please switch me (Belisarios) to Epeiros. Thank you

[Tanit]

Would it be possible for someone to upload the replays in a regular video format or onto youtube for those of us with different versions of EB? That would be awesome!

[Ghaust the Moor]

If its not a problem, Please move me to Saka

EDIT: I agree with Tanit. It makes it a whole lot easier

[WinsingtonIII]

If you had a phalanx box

and I surrounded you (that means I put units all around you, it doesn't require me to make a full circle with no gaps...), then I win. This is why the phalanx box is not banned. It's allowed because it gives you an opportunity to defeat it simply because you surround it (illustrating complete defeat for the army that is surrounded; historically, you would not want to find yourself surrounded...).

If your enemy has all cavalry forces because you defeated his infantry, and you clearly outnumber the horsemen (usually the case; if you are outnumbered by horsemen, then you will likely lose), and your enemy does not attack you but skirmishes his cavalry away from your forces for at least 5 minutes, then you win (as the enemy has not decisively defeated you, but simply simulates his retreat/forfeit).

There's gotta be some sort of in between though, right? What if one player loses all cavalry and is forced to form the phalanx box to survive, but they still significantly outnumber the enemy's all cav army? If the cavalry is high quality enough, even a significantly outnumbered cavalry force might be able to force someone into the box. At this point, however, neither can win. If the cavalry go for the charge, they die. If the infantry break the box and attempt to chase the cavalry, they never catch them and may get flanked/killed. I know it's a rare eventuality, but who gets the win here? Both rules that you stated technically apply, so do we award 1 point to each, or perhaps 0 points to each? I'm thinking 0 to each, simply because giving 1 point to each encourages draws... Or we could go with World Cup scoring and award 3 points for a win, 1 for a draw (although I admit the situation is very rare and subject to judicial review), and 0 for a loss...

EDIT: Sorry Vartan, I missed your later post on the subject. So we're awarding wins based on what would constitute a strategic victory in those scenarios?