So what would you like to see in S2TW?

[seienchin]

I didnt play Medieval 1, when it came out I still continued playing shogun for like 2 years. It was just so good and satisfying. Off course it always ended with me fighting against endles hordes of shimazu or hojo troops, but still it was great. :)
Sometimes I just had key provinces of the enemy rebell by using endless hordes of spies, then sometimes I assasinated their lords and heirs and other times I just bribed them, but most of the time it was cruel fighting^^. I never rushed the enemy (Except the Hojo, when playing as takeda) and tried to get my hands on key regions and then waited for chances to imrpove my lands, when the other daimyos fought against each other. In Shogun the Ki never only focusses on destroying the player and I had the feeling that diplomacy was much easier and reasonable.
Mongol Invasion on the other hand was kinda lame...^^ No diplomavy, no geishas, the mongols not beeing able to built up the provinces they took, so mostly when playing as the samurai the mongol invasion just bleed out, before even taking whole of kyushu.

By the way, it was my golden Age of gaming back then. Having played Zelda, MGS, FFS starcraft etc. I was just stunned by the scale, sound and style of shogun. It was the peak of my gaming history. :)

By the way, do you think there will be a Mongol Invasion addon or additional campain?^^

[Subotan]

I voted that I'd get it, but only if it is not Steam exclusive.

I dislike Steam for the same reasons I dislike any intrusive copy protection software or unnecessary commercial bloatware that locks the user in to a single service where the available products are not necessarily at the best available prices...

2nd:[No] Steam conection. I didn't buy NTW and ETW because of this fact.
.

• No Steam/SecuRom

Edit: Steam smells

- no Steam

Hello 2004! Welcome to 2010! In the future, the price of PC gaming existing at all is that we have to use a media platform which has gradually improved to the point of become an acceptable service.

Seriously though, all the Steam haters should be lucky that something like this exists, therefore preventing PC gaming from slowly descending into a permanent nadir.

[General Malaise]

PC gaming isn't going anywhere, so the condescending attitude is quite unnecessary. Plenty of game developers out there don't use Steam and do quite well or if they do use it also offer non-Steam options. Many of these are indie companies like matrix games or spiderweb but, frankly, they tend to produce better products than the big companies anyway.

The reason it *looks like* PC gaming is dying is because people only consider it from the standpoint of the big companies, like those involved with TW, who, instead of realizing that the PC gaming audience is quite different to that of the console and that the PC offers different possibilities, are foolishly trying to compete with the console market particularly by focusing on shallow things such as graphical development.

I personally would have no problem if PC games, TW for example, never went past the graphics of STW or MTW as long as they maintained their level of gameplay. Even if PC gaming was somehow to die because I refuse to use Steam, then fine, let it die. There's plenty of good PC games already out there and I'm not going to be corralled into something as a consumer that exists only to limit my freedom especially when the products coming out are of worse and worse quality.

[Kagemusha]

I didnt play Medieval 1, when it came out I still continued playing shogun for like 2 years. It was just so good and satisfying. Off course it always ended with me fighting against endles hordes of shimazu or hojo troops, but still it was great. :)
Sometimes I just had key provinces of the enemy rebell by using endless hordes of spies, then sometimes I assasinated their lords and heirs and other times I just bribed them, but most of the time it was cruel fighting^^. I never rushed the enemy (Except the Hojo, when playing as takeda) and tried to get my hands on key regions and then waited for chances to imrpove my lands, when the other daimyos fought against each other. In Shogun the Ki never only focusses on destroying the player and I had the feeling that diplomacy was much easier and reasonable.
Mongol Invasion on the other hand was kinda lame...^^ No diplomavy, no geishas, the mongols not beeing able to built up the provinces they took, so mostly when playing as the samurai the mongol invasion just bleed out, before even taking whole of kyushu.

By the way, it was my golden Age of gaming back then. Having played Zelda, MGS, FFS starcraft etc. I was just stunned by the scale, sound and style of shogun. It was the peak of my gaming history. :)

By the way, do you think there will be a Mongol Invasion addon or additional campain?^^

Im betting that there will be a Korean invasion /Imjin war extension, which should be great with Ming troops and all the neat Korean weapons like Hwatcha rocket launchers and turtle ships.

[General Malaise]

It would also be nice if they added more religious options this time beyond just Christianity and Buddhism. Say, for instance, Shinto/Folk Belief and Confucianism. Even better would be different schools/temples of Buddhism and perhaps a conflict between the Catholic Jesuits and Protestant Christians. However, I kind of get the feeling religion won't be a presence at all this time (although I hope I am wrong).

[Tuuvi]

I never played the original shogun, but I did play RTW and M2TW, and I think the thing I would like to see most is better battle and campaign AI. In the campaign AI it would be really cool if the AI had the ability to think in the long term and set long term goals as well as think in the short term.

I would also like to see an improved, more in depth and more realistic diplomacy system. In RTW and M2 the diplomacy consisted of sending a diplomat over to a faction, clicking a choice and seeing if the AI accepts. In S2 I would really like it if the diplomacy consisted of actual negotiation, the ability to coordinate attacks with your allies, conduct trade, etc. If done right diplomacy could become a very important and fun part of the game.

Family politics should also play a big role in the game, because AFAIK they played a huge role in Japanese politics. It would be cool if all FM's would marry FM's from other clans in the game, and the player could attempt to set up these marriages. Of course this could become tedious so I think that marriages should also be able to happen on their own without player direction. However, if a feature like this were to be implemented I think it should not use agents like in M2TW.

[seienchin]

It would also be nice if they added more religious options this time beyond just Christianity and Buddhism. Say, for instance, Shinto/Folk Belief and Confucianism. Even better would be different schools/temples of Buddhism and perhaps a conflict between the Catholic Jesuits and Protestant Christians. However, I kind of get the feeling religion won't be a presence at all this time (although I hope I am wrong).

Shinto was neglegtable in Sengoku jidai. It became something like a religion in the 19th. century, when the new japanese state was founded.
The folk believes were kind of a mix between shinto, buddhism and lots and lots of superstition. People were afraid of crossing bridges for examples and the kawaras (The rock and sand ground around japanese rivers) were unclean ground, where lots of outcasts lived.
Having superstitiousnes in the game would be great. :)
Confucianism is not quite a religion and for most sengoku daimyos it wasnt as important as it became in the edo jidai.
But there were a lot of different buddhistic schools. If you could choose between them it would be interesting.


PS: There were no protestant christians in japan.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I wish they will add a actual ladder/ranking system for MP like they had in the first one. I think this will make the game very interesting.


I also think they should do something that if your army wins a major battle, there should be a record of all major battles they won, so they can try to "cover themselves in glory" type of thing.

[Tera]

I wish they will add a actual ladder/ranking system for MP like they had in the first one. I think this will make the game very interesting.


I also think they should do something that if your army wins a major battle, there should be a record of all major battles they won, so they can try to "cover themselves in glory" type of thing.

They already said the ladder/ranking system is coming back!

[Hax]

As one of the few Buddhists on these forums (and I guess, the only Shingon Buddhist around) I hope a good representation of the different souhei employed by the various Buddhist sects and a good way to represent the power and wealth of say, Koya-san and the general influence of the different sects in Japan.

Gambatte o-kudasai

[Swoosh So]

I hope to see the return of the Yari cavalry and their role in the game, excellent v other cav but weak except on the flank vs infantry, They were a great unit in stw good at balancing things out and stopping cav from being to powerful. And always keeping you on your toes with your horse archer units as the yari cav were the fastest. I loved that.

[General Malaise]

Shinto was neglegtable in Sengoku jidai. It became something like a religion in the 19th. century, when the new japanese state was founded.

This is a very odd thing to claim, that Shinto was negligible at any point during Japanese history. The Emperor's authority stemmed from the fact he was (and still is really) considered the high priest of the Shinto religion. This is like claiming the Pope is negligible in the middle ages of europe even if the Pope didn't rule in the same way a king did.

I'd like to see more involvement with having to curry the favor of, or at least make it look like you are, of the Imperial family more as well as the peasants, and building/maintaining/defending Shinto shrines could be an interesting way. In the original you could conquer Yamato and the emperor claimed to support you but that was about it and it disappointingly didn't seem to have much effect.

The folk believes were kind of a mix between shinto, buddhism and lots and lots of superstition. People were afraid of crossing bridges for examples and the kawaras (The rock and sand ground around japanese rivers) were unclean ground, where lots of outcasts lived.
Having superstitiousnes in the game would be great. :)

This is another reason religion should be more of a factor. If you have say, christian troops, then perhaps they should suffer less of a morale penalty over crossing bridges as they've converted away from "pagan superstitions". Of course, you'd have to balance this out with something else gameplay wise which I can't really think of at the moment.

Confucianism is not quite a religion and for most sengoku daimyos it wasnt as important as it became in the edo jidai.
But there were a lot of different buddhistic schools. If you could choose between them it would be interesting.

Confuciansim is very much a religion, at least as much as Taoism is in the sense there are some schools and traditions almost solely focused on rites and others mostly only concerned with secular philosophy although Confucianism at its core was a mix of both, much like Pythagoreanism.

Anyway, the point I'm making here again isn't so much what happened exactly (otherwise you'd be playing a historical narrative with almost no choice) but the possibility to do things yourself that other daimyo may not have done. Religion has always been wielded as a political weapon by ruling classes so having so more options on how to do that that still fit the setting well even if the the years are slightly off would be great with me.

[Monk]

I'd like to see more involvement with having to curry the favor of, or at least make it look like you are, of the Imperial family more as well as the peasants, and building/maintaining/defending Shinto shrines could be an interesting way. In the original you could conquer Yamato and the emperor claimed to support you but that was about it and it disappointingly didn't seem to have much effect.

I like the sound of that. Maybe a loose mission system as well, gaining support from the Emperor by weakening Rivals or taking care of the people.

[quadalpha]

Am I the only one who liked the Risk-like campaign map? Advantages:

- It can be balanced. A more lucrative province can have more neighbours, which makes it harder to defend. You can also have key strategic provinces that would shorten your lines, etc..
- It allows more variety in battlefields; you never know exactly the kind of terrain you'll be fighting on.
- It just feels more powerful to be moving armies between provinces, rather than micromanaging the tile they're sitting on.

[General Malaise]

I loved the Risk campaign map myself but they'll never go back to it out of fear of "looking backwards". I myself found every campaign after MTW1 tedious and repetitive. People claim there's more freedom on the 3d map, but they're just blinded by the visuals. Mechanically, there's nothing you couldn't just abstract onto a 2d system (like saying, choosing the point of attack into the province and indicating it with arrows, and having armies positioned differently in the province map based on that). The 2d map is simple and manage-able (both for the player and the AI) where the 3d one is endless micro and actually ends up conflating battles into sieges rather than opening up more options.

[darius_d]

Generally, just 2 wishes
- that CA allow some popular requests for advanced playing as an option and not just waste them only because it doesn't fit beginners.

- I also wish CA borrow proven ideas from competition - namely from Magitech (titles like Takeda 3 or Strength and Honour 2). I mean their superior strategical/tactical concepts for campaign.

Specifically though:
Campaign
- characters' traits and preferences decide choice for strategic decisions - so player still has a choice but more limited.
It's like engagement in war, evolution of diplomatic relations, direction of economic development, etc.. The decisions are influenced not only by daimyo's preferences but also by power struggle between internal factions within his clan - family members, highest ranking generals, respected samurais and heroes, court officers, family teachers, etc. - all of them having their own views, ambitions and preferences, too (and loyalty level...), their influence depended on their position. It's working great in Magitech games.

- supply lines to be added (plus attrition)

- no more city growing, just developing and upgrading their specialization - big and small cities typically exist at any moment of the history, no need to artificially grow cities!

Battles
- timed and fully customized reinforcements - allowing attempt of surrounding enemy from behind or to counter such manouver by enemy (another great idea from Magitech).

- more than 20 units in battle, but obligatory grouped in no more than - say - 10-12 tactical groups for better tactical control and for more historical accuracy in army composition. Also to allow more complex manouvers (like pincer movement).

Multiplayer
- possibility to set predefined limitators of army composition - for example max koku to spent on army, maximum experience allowed for each unit type, maximum and miminum number of specific unit types, etc. (unless already exist in Empire/Napoleon - I didn't buy it).

[Hooahguy]

- more than 20 units in battle,

judging by early screens, this looks unlikely.

[Hax]

Shinto was neglegtable in Sengoku jidai. It became something like a religion in the 19th. century, when the new japanese state was founded.
The folk believes were kind of a mix between shinto, buddhism and lots and lots of superstition. People were afraid of crossing bridges for examples and the kawaras (The rock and sand ground around japanese rivers) were unclean ground, where lots of outcasts lived.
Having superstitiousnes in the game would be great. :)
Confucianism is not quite a religion and for most sengoku daimyos it wasnt as important as it became in the edo jidai.
But there were a lot of different buddhistic schools. If you could choose between them it would be interesting.

Shinto existed way before the 19th century, what you're thinking about is called State Shinto or Kokka Shinto. By no means it was negligible, rather, it was not political. The political connotation Shinto got was after the Meiji Restoration in the 18th century.

When it comes to folk beliefs, I don't think I've ever heard something about people being afraid of crossing bridges. Of course, bridges had a very spiritual connotation to them, but being afraid of doing so? I don't really think so. Don't forget that Shinto as a religion hardly has a moral system; it's borrowed from Confucianism.

Speaking about the different Buddhist sects, if we're talking about Sengoku Jidai-era Japan, we have these:

- Koyasan Shingon-shu (Mantrayana esoteric sect; main figure is Dainichi Nyorai (Mahavairocana Buddha); sported their own souhei; fully based around the Wakayama-province (with some influence in Osaka, I believe) and owned large tracts of land. Also an elitist sect)
- Tendai (Related to Tiantai of China; based around Mt. Hiei, also sported own souhei. Not as much an aristocrat sect as Shingon, but still quite elitist)
- Nichiren-shu (Founded by Nichiren Daishounin, Kamakura period; very popular amongst the merchant classes; I'm unsure about whether they sported souhei, but I do think so. Had quite some influence during our period)
- Jodo-shu (Pure Land; main figure is Amida Butsu (Amitabha Buddha); very popular amongst the lowest classes of society; sported own souhei)
- Jodo Shin-shu (True Pure Land; main figure is Amida Butsu; very popular amongst the lowest classes; sported own souhei and often clashed with Jodo)

I might have overlooked one or two here.

[General Malaise]

I don't get why everyone wants more than 20 units per stack. Are you really going to be able to keep track of all them efficiently? More importantly perhaps, will the AI? I thought the 16 per army from Shogun was plenty (especially with huge units and multiple armies), and probably contributed a lot more to the tightness of the AI and MP in it compared to the rest of the series.

Particularly as the maps don't really get any bigger you really just end up running out of space to maneuver properly with so many units. If you want that many a system like Takeda uses with reinforcements placed at different positions coming in during different phases of battle would be better, or even break up a battle map into multiple mini-maps. Tons of units at one time is just more of this shallow "wow-factor" visually in my opinion.

[seienchin]

This is a very odd thing to claim, that Shinto was negligible at any point during Japanese history. The Emperor's authority stemmed from the fact he was (and still is really) considered the high priest of the Shinto religion. This is like claiming the Pope is negligible in the middle ages of europe even if the Pope didn't rule in the same way a king did.

Confuciansim is very much a religion, at least as much as Taoism is in the sense there are some schools and traditions almost solely focused on rites and others mostly only concerned with secular philosophy although Confucianism at its core was a mix of both, much like Pythagoreanism.

Anyway, the point I'm making here again isn't so much what happened exactly (otherwise you'd be playing a historical narrative with almost no choice) but the possibility to do things yourself that other daimyo may not have done. Religion has always been wielded as a political weapon by ruling classes so having so more options on how to do that that still fit the setting well even if the the years are slightly off would be great with me.

Well, the Emperor had nearly nothing to say in Sengoku Jidai and him beeing the high priest of shinto AGAIN is something that came to importance in the meiji times. Off course it is something that roots in the yamato time, but still shinto isnt a continous religion with rules and followers like buddhism. Shinto was always there, but not always an important institution. ;) Buddhists had real power and the thinking of the ruling samurai class was highly influenced by buddhism.
Confucianism is a religion, but not in Japan. ;) There it was a theory about how a govermnent and society should work and it was most important in the edo times.
Anyway I agree that having more choices would be great. ;)

@Hax
Im studying Japanese at the university and I had a course about common believes in sengoku Jidai. Bridges were considered crossings to the afterlife. Still today in many parts of japan, people do not put there chopsticks on there rice bowl like building a bridge, because its considered to bring bad luck.
In many parts of europe there were small statues or crucifix at bridges to protect you from evil too.^^
Anyway I would be glad if you could make wild drinking parties with your retainers. Jesuits coming to japan stated, that japanese were really really hard drinkers. ^^

[Hax]

Im studying Japanese at the university and I had a course about common believes in sengoku Jidai. Bridges were considered crossings to the afterlife. Still today in many parts of japan, people do not put there chopsticks on there rice bowl like building a bridge, because its considered to bring bad luck.

I did know about the spiritual importance of bridges, but not about fear of crossing them and them being passages to the afterlife. I will rely on your academic experience on this

[Gregoshi]

As long as the religious choices have a tangible impact on the course of the game, I'm all for it.

[darius_d]

@ General Malaise

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I don't get why everyone wants more than 20 units per stack. Are you really going to be able to keep track of all them efficiently? More importantly perhaps, will the AI? I thought the 16 per army from Shogun was plenty (especially with huge units and multiple armies), and probably contributed a lot more to the tightness of the AI and MP in it compared to the rest of the series.

Particularly as the maps don't really get any bigger you really just end up running out of space to maneuver properly with so many units. If you want that many a system like Takeda uses with reinforcements placed at different positions coming in during different phases of battle would be better, or even break up a battle map into multiple mini-maps. Tons of units at one time is just more of this shallow "wow-factor" visually in my opinion.

It's quite simple. Indeed, micromanaging of 20 units is already too much to play effectively from tactical point of view. Yes, there are shortcuts etc, but it's not very elaborated. It's just getting clickfest.
So I see a lot of sense to forcibly group units into separate tactical groups to keep it all about battle experiance reasonably tactical.

On the other hand, 20 units is not enough to play in historical way, epsecially to simulate historical battles. So it's all about unsufficient historical accuracy in units diversity in composition of armies. With 20 units it's impossible to simulate even 1 roman legion, not to mention full army.

But what I actually suggest is to find a better way to introduce historical compositions within battle engine, compared to what is now, it doesn't really have to mean more units. edit: for example soldiers in 3D battles could symbolise a real-life like number of forces engaged.

So I ask for it now, even if they don't introduce it in S2TW, perhaps there will be a way in the following title.

[Gurkhal]

While Shinto like that may not have been all that politically active as a single power, Japanese mythology and cult practices related to the Kami were to my understanding still important in that period to the Japanese population. If my mind isn't wrong there were for example both shrines constructed to the Kami by samurai warlords.

Not I wouldn't advocate Shinto as a seperate religion beside Buddhism and Christianity. However due to the syncretic nature and fusion, to my understanding and I could of course be wrong, between Buddhism and the practices regarding the Kami I think that building shrines devoted to these and gaining traits regarding their worship would be nice.

[Gorky]

leadership:

the number of an army is depend of general's leadership: it is develope with experience

fire arrow:

fire bow is fire up wariors...?! i think not, but it fire up wood construck: buildings, catapult, wooden wall

capture war machines:

(low quality soilders has the ability to use machines, if they could capture it, they can turn it to the enemy)

castle:

you can only use healthy man in the army, use farmer to make wheet/rice, educated man to profession (money make), and dealer to trade

[ReluctantSamurai]

I've always liked games that implement a system for leaders. Think of all the great conquering armies throughout history.......they had great generals leading them....and not just by field expertise, but with charisma, as well.

Hearts of Iron, for instance, has a system somewhat like that suggested by Gorky...the army size your general can control is related to skill-level. You can place more units in an army for a particular general, but he will have little or no control over units beyond his capabilities. That makes advancement experience related, and adds uncertainty to the battlefield with uncontrolable units.

[Devastatin Dave]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet but.... NO STEAM!!!!

[drone]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet but.... NO STEAM!!!!

It has.

[Lechev]

The following are my wish-list :-

1) A 3D map of feudal japan which shows all the provinces (see attached link )
http://http://www.maproom.org/00/05/sub1/1.html

2) Recruitable ronins and an option for those conqured fractions' general be either executed or released to become ronins if they refuse to serve their new lord.
3) Ikko Ikki uprising especially around the regions from the province of Kaga.
4) Options to choose heir
5) Better market access to arquebus ( and price ) and western naval techology if the fraction leader is a Christian himself or welcome Jesuit priests in his dormain
6) Political marriage carry a certain weightage to the leader's prestage and honour. Breaking such alliance will affect the leader's political credibilities
7) No legendary Geisha units ( please! )
8) To capture Kyoto ( and remain captured for a number of turns ) as one of the main criteria to win the game. Other fractions during this time will either declare war openly of form coalitions.

My list is not complete, maybe you guys have a better idea?

[Swoosh So]

A multiplayer chat foyer