This is how backwards education in California is.

[a completely inoffensive name]

In my sophomore year of high school (grade 10) I had to take a somewhat recently implemented standardized test called the CAHSEE. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Califor...hool_Exit_Exam Its full name is the California High School Exit Exam.

Now can someone please tell me how it is a smart idea to make the test to pass high school require only a freshman's level of education?

[pevergreen]

We have a sort of similar test.

The QCS (Queensland Core Skills test) is 4 exams over two days, near the end of year 12. It factors into your OP (Overall Position) you get when you graduate and it only requires knowledge that you would have on completion of Year 10.

[a completely inoffensive name]

We have a sort of similar test.

The QCS (Queensland Core Skills test) is 4 exams over two days, near the end of year 12. It factors into your OP (Overall Position) you get when you graduate and it only requires knowledge that you would have on completion of Year 10.

Doesn't tests like that weaken the incentive to learn anything after the test besides the bare minimum? In order to pass high school if you only need to know 9 grades of knowledge, then what is to stop someone from simply figuring out that all you have to do is take it easy and skim by with C's for the rest of the grades until graduation. If the point to improve the actual knowledge of the students by saying, "pass this or you don't graduate". Then shouldn't we put the test at the end of your last year and make it so that you need to know 12 grades of knowledge comprehensively?

[pevergreen]

Because the university system here isnt the same as America.

We are in direct competition with other students from our school in each subject. If you get an A, thats great. But if everyone else got an A as well, you might as well all have gotten a C. You need to do better than the others, because you need a good OP to get into the course you want.

Want to be a doctor? You need an OP 1. That means you basically have to top the class for every subject (class meaning everyone that does the subject in your school) and hope your school gets a good ranking from the QCS.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Because the university system here isnt the same as America.

We are in direct competition with other students from our school in each subject. If you get an A, thats great. But if everyone else got an A as well, you might as well all have gotten a C. You need to do better than the others, because you need a good OP to get into the course you want.

Want to be a doctor? You need an OP 1. That means you basically have to top the class for every subject (class meaning everyone that does the subject in your school) and hope your school gets a good ranking from the QCS.

That actually sounds like a good system. What are the downsides to it?

[miotas]

We have a ranking system here in NSW too called the UAI(Universities Admission Index) and there are two main possible downsides. 1)If you score very highly in your school work, but everyone in the class scores as highly or higher, then your rank wont be as high as your school work might suggest or 2) if everyone in your class does poorly, then it could bring down your overall ranking in the state.

[pevergreen]

Thats 0-100 yeah miotas? Same as VIC?

The QLD OP system has a few disadvantages. You could be the smartest person on earth, but if your school gets ranked badly due to QCS (which ranks the schools by the students total scores, so if a lot of people do bad on the QCS, the school means less and you get a lower OP) you could still end up with a bad OP.

The system is confusing, and barely anyone understands it. Its also, for this part, only used by the admissions group (QTAC - Queensland Tertiary Admissions Centre). If you want to study anywhere outside this state, or at an institution that doesnt go through QTAC, you have to convert. If I wanted to go to america to study, they wouldn't understand what I meant when I said I got an OP x. Actually 'graduating' high school and obtaining the new QCE (Queensland Certificate of Education, basically says you passed high school) can be harder than getting an OP.

I technically don't have a QCE, so I can't say I finished high school. Because I failed semester 3 of Math B (middle line), the first two semesters (which I did pass) didn't count, so instead of 20 passed semesters, I only have 19.

Tell me how that last bit makes any bloody sense.

[naut]

I like NSW's system, it's a good system.

1)If you score very highly in your school work, but everyone in the class scores as highly or higher, then your rank wont be as high as your school work might suggest

They factor the internal part against the external part as well. If you did very well in school and so did your class, but did poorly in the exams themselves they realise your internal testing was possibly too easy and they lower your rank accordingly. On the flip-side if you and your class do averagely to poorly internally but do well in the actual exams they realise you were likely internally tested too hard and raise your rank accordingly. This happened in my history class, we all did largely averagely and where very stressed for the actual exam, but when the results came out we all got 80s for it.

2) if everyone in your class does poorly, then it could bring down your overall ranking in the state.

This really is a myth, I've never seen this occur once except in old wives tales. They compare your results with your class yes, but they factor in more things than just that. My software class did poorly, I was the only one getting good marks, I still got a band 6 - 90%.

[HoreTore]

I have never cared about grades in my life, and I probably never will. The system is so flawed it's basically meaningless.

[rory_20_uk]

I do not know what the exams are supposed to quantify any more.

There are for example maths exams that are as far as possible based on aptitude rather than knowledge but these are often merely quizzes, not standard exams.

I certainly know that in my Physics paper I wrote learnt the answers without any understanding of what I was writing. Does that prove I'm any good at Physics or prepared to put the work in?

Increasingly I hear that people require grades in subjects - but it has nothing to do with the subject per se, more that to get a high mark requires a decent amount of work and to get high marks in a spread of subjects again generally indicates the ability to apply oneself rather than an interest in a narrow field.

I'm a pragmatist and I need to jump through the lovely little hoops and even stomach such phrases as "matrix environment", "self starter" and the rest as talking the talk is part and parcel of getting the job. Thinking it's all a pile of drivel isn't going to win brownie points.

[Greyblades]

I just dont understand why governments force kids to go through really important exams that can colour their entire future when they're 15 and the kindest description anyone can give them is a Hormone Riddled Mess.

[gaelic cowboy]

@ Rory the ability to slip the maximun amount of TLA's (three letter acyrnoms) into a sentence at works is a highly sought after skill.

"Did you get the pm done on NL402 yet and just touching base with you on the sem results on svg401 it was green to green earlier, availability is good across the board now lets walk and talk about the focal results on cww1 drones on in an incomprehensible technobabble"

[HoreTore]

I just dont understand why governments force kids to go through really important exams that can colour their entire future when they're 15 and the kindest description anyone can give them is a Hormone Riddled Mess.

really important?

What employer gives a damn about the grades you had when you were 15? I still haven't shown my graduation papers from the 13th grade to anyone but colleges, no employer will give a crap about them.

[Greyblades]

I'm sorry, I though you needed those grades earned when you were 15 to be able to start on the next grades, I must be mistaken.

[HoreTore]

At 15 we are given grades that is a summary of what has happened during the entire year, not a single exam.

It's actually only at university level that we only have exams as our grade.

Anyway, passing the exam is of course important, my point was that the difference between an A and a C is pretty much irrelevant to the rest of the world.

Life doesn't end at 15 no matter how poor your exams are. Things sort themselves out eventually. No need to go all emo...

[Greyblades]

I was thinking of our GCSE's. I'm going to sound so ignorant but I had assumed that Norway had a similar system. And I know that life doesnt end if you fail them I just know from personal experience that it's just a right pain trying to correct the error when you know if you had actually taken it seriously you could have saved a year of your life retaking them.

[HoreTore]

There is absolutely no equivalent to such a test in Norway. Fortunately.

A four-page test cannot know better than a teacher who has followed a student over several years what the studens level is in a given field. I's simply impoossible, and you have delusional politicans and school administrators I would check regularly for drug abuse.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Can someone also tell me why every test that determines "aptitude" has to consist of "here is a bunch of numbers, know a formula to turn them into the number we want." Why is there never any open ended questions that determine your thought process and problem solving skills like, "You have a container of unknown volume and a hose with an unknown flow rate. Describe how you might determine the volume of the unknown container given the parameters."

[Greyblades]

Presumably because it would take alot of time just to figure out if the students answer will work.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Becuase you will get answers like this: look up the make, model and serial number. Then look up the technical specs of the container on the manufacturer's website.
While perfectly valid an approach in the real world, it's not really useful for a test in your Math skills because you completely side-stepped all Mathematics there.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Becuase you will get answers like this: look up the make, model and serial number. Then look up the technical specs of the container on the manufacturer's website.
While perfectly valid an approach in the real world, it's not really useful for a test in your Math skills because you completely side-stepped all Mathematics there.

I wasn't thinking it would be a rigorous mathematical question, it would just be a question to see if you could even have an idea on how you might solve the problem without all the numbers given to you.

[HoreTore]

Well, a problem can be diagnostic without it being a "problem solver"-question. Ie. the problem 0.4x0.3 will not show whether the student understands anything, while the problem 0.4x0.2 will show it.

About formulas. A big problem with maths today is that students are given a bunch of formulas, explained what they're for and then set to learn them by heart(like rory studied physics). Let's say you've accomplished that, what is it you've really accomplished?

Nothing more than a 24-page booklet can tell you. In other words, you have just wasted years of education.

What students should learn is why those formulas are the way it is. Why the relation between percentage and desimalnumbers has to be the way it is, why you calculate area the way you do. Really, if you understand that the area of a rectangle is side x side, I don't see why you should have much problems with any other figures.

For example.

[HoreTore]

Presumably because it would take alot of time just to figure out if the students answer will work.

You never had open problems in your maths classes? Oh, and give us some credit, it ain't that hard to follow a students chain of thoughts and figure out if he's correct or not....

[Greyblades]

Open questions? I've had questions replaced by theoretical situations, "train leaves at bristol at 12:00 bound for london with an average speed of 50mph" etc (although funnily enough I never got an actual one involving a train, most being find the area of a patch of grass in a garden and such) but not one of those. Maybe it was in the second year of A levels; I didnt get that far due to depression.

[Moros]

Well, a problem can be diagnostic without it being a "problem solver"-question. Ie. the problem 0.4x0.3 will not show whether the student understands anything, while the problem 0.4x0.2 will show it.

When I want to see if someone can do a little practical mathematical thinking I usually ask them to calculate a simple square root. For exampl what is the square root of 2025? People who can do more than just use a calculator all go like well that has to end with 5 then. Hmmm...it's between 1600 and 2500, so if it is a natural number it should be 45. But it's scaring how few people come up with that easy solution. Some panic already by hearing the square root and a number higher than 100 in the same sentence.

It's quite sad if I look back to see how little I learned in high school, that I either didn't know already or was completely useless. Sadly I don't have the feeling I'm getting much smarter at college either. Well not from the classes I take. Thank god for it's library!

[drone]

Now can someone please tell me how it is a smart idea to make the test to pass high school require only a freshman's level of education?

I don't think you are being tested to see if you can graduate, this is just a side effect. My guess is that it is the school that is being tested.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I don't think you are being tested to see if you can graduate, this is just a side effect. My guess is that it is the school that is being tested.

Nope, that has already been the goal of the extensive series of tests called "Star" testing which everyone from 6th-11th grade have to partake in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standar..._and_Reporting

[HoreTore]

Nope, that has already been the goal of the extensive series of tests called "Star" testing which everyone from 6th-11th grade have to partake in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standar..._and_Reporting

Gawd I hate that stuff sooooo much.....

ACIN, I suggest you ask your principal how stupid your teacher is, when a 5-hour test is more able to deteermine your level of understanding than the teacher who has followed you for the entire year, or more....

[Fisherking]

Gawd I hate that stuff sooooo much.....

ACIN, I suggest you ask your principal how stupid your teacher is, when a 5-hour test is more able to deteermine your level of understanding than the teacher who has followed you for the entire year, or more....

Asking such a question of a teacher would violate the union contract and require that you pay them more.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Gawd I hate that stuff sooooo much.....

ACIN, I suggest you ask your principal how stupid your teacher is, when a 5-hour test is more able to deteermine your level of understanding than the teacher who has followed you for the entire year, or more....

Well I am in uni now, so I can't do that. However, I have met and talked to the principle at the time I was there in passing. He was a good man and to be honest, the situation is out of his control, the state or federal government mandates the standardized tests. So it wouldn't do any good to complain to him.

Asking such a question of a teacher would violate the union contract and require that you pay them more.

I hope you are being facetious because quite honestly, the teachers union, while a major problem, do more good than bad in the system. People blame teachers for everything wrong with their child and try to **** on all of them by cutting all of their pay and benefits. The teachers get too much flak. The only problem with the teachers union is that they are too defensive to get rid of tenure which is the only legitimate problem regarding how teachers operated.

I used to hate teachers, until I started talking to them. Then I realize many of them are incredible people who need to be given more support, many were incredible people that are now hollowed out by the eroding nature of the system on teachers, and the remaining 20% are just terrible teachers.

EDIT: If you want to cut money from someones paycheck, cut it from the upper bureaucracy, or in fact just eliminate the upper bureaucracy by a good portion. The system of education seems to be a decentralized program at its heart and yet we have numerous entanglements from the state and federal levels coming down in on the individual schools them selves.

Then take that money you save, and reinvest it into the system by paying for new teachers and principles for new schools so overcrowding is cut down, which is one of the main problems of the school system and yet no one wants to acknowledge it. Why? Because there is only one solution to solving the 35-40 kids a class crisis, and that is to pay for more schools and teachers. And everyone is too selfish to do that.