EBOT June 2011 - MP EDU - Feedback needed.

[Lazy O]

Its fun to make people flip :D

[The Celtic Viking]

Good on the morale thing, which by the way was in the documentation (which is where I picked up on it in the first place - you did the same to the Galatikoi Kuarothoroi, just so you know in case theirs should be fixed as well). Though I still disagree, it's easier to swallow now, at least. I mean, 120 men (because they were 160 pre-change ) would be fine, but then I think they should be given a little better stats. As I said, they shouldn't compete with regulars for a place in the army, and as is, you'll be choosing Neitos for "elites", and Arjos acting more as a possible regular, which isn't quite right IMO.

[LusitanianWolf]

--- Sloxonez, Dugunthiz, and Dugunthiz Hadjiska ---

-Numbers decreased to 80 men
- +1 Attack, +3 Defense Skill
-Dugunthiz morale increased from 11 to 15, range increased to 36.8, cost increased from 1233 to 1484
-Dugunthiz Hadjiska morale increased from 13 to 16, range increased to 38.5, cost increased from 1357 to 1583
-Sloxones morale increased from 12 to 16, range increased to 36.8, cost increased from 1214 to 1469

NOTE: Stats changed to reflect high-quality retainer or shock infantry status of these units

Dugunthiz Hattisku (Chatti spearman) still have 100 men with the newer stats.



Edit: I'm realy enjoying the new changes until now! Ridonez are now a force to be recognized, I usualy dont use cavalry as Sweboz but I think I'm going to start using!
Now to some MP!

[gamegeek2]

I have just fixed this with an update.

[gamegeek2]

EDIT: Sorry for Double Post.

Bataroas = Standard Sword/Jav line infantry
Neitos = Heavy Sword/Jav line infantry
Arjos = Heavy Noble infantry
Solduros = Heavy, near-unbreakable elites

[gamegeek2]

Played 5 or 6 test games with LusitanianWolf, to great success for both my personal record and that of the new EDU.

Changes have gone over well so far, we did discover that Pezhetairoi morale was too high. They would not surrender even when surrounded, until they were below 120 men. That's not horrible but still too long, only Hysteroi and better should last that long.

BTW also got a good example of how to defeat Phalanxes with Sweboz (I used them because it's harder with them than with Gauls since they don't have chariots to disrupt formations). LusoWolf should have it saved.

EDIT: Found it - http://www.mediafire.com/?mk98l492ukhg489

[vartan]

One important note: the new stats are designed so that pre-Marian Romans can use 36k without being OP

Cheers. Do we still need to indicate elite pre-Marian units and place limits on how many you can get?

[gamegeek2]

EDIT: NVM NOT NECESSARY.

[vartan]

I intend to make a single player version of this, with all unit ownership adusted to the SP version, able to be used in campaign, but mainly for replay viewing.

We talked about this after you posted this. You hadn't seen the MP load replay mod. But if people want their SP unit stats to keep up with the newest developments in MP (think DNA mutations for the better), then that'd be cool for them. I'm guessing only doing stat value changes wouldn't ruin save games, right? So people could keep updating their EDU without restarting campaigns.

[gamegeek2]

UPDATED!

EDIT: UPDATED AGAIN!

Major changes:

-Pezhetairoi morale decreased to 13.
-Lanceari made an elite unit riding unarmoured horses.
-Curisi get better defense and lethality, increased cost.

[Burebista]

Just checked out the documentation. Rly good job so far.

Was thinking you still need to add some melee only cav to sauro so they have a little versatility.

[gamegeek2]

Trust me, Sauro are fine.

[LusitanianWolf]

Test time!
I'll miss the lanceari horsies but I gess it fits Lusos better that way.

Was thinking you still need to add some melee only cav to sauro so they have a little versatility.

Trust me, Sauro are fine.

Trust him, Sauro are fine

What melee cavalry could be given to them, Mercenary Thrakioi Prodromoi or Tarambostes? Would fit, I gess but they already have some awesome all round cavalry.


Btw, I suggest that Caucasian Archers should be added to Pontus since they can be recruited just next to your starting province (regional MIC) and they dont have any Persian-like/eastern archers atm.

Edit:

The file you are trying to access is temporarily unavailable. Please try again later.

Strange, I could open it in the morning in another computer.....
Are you uploading a new one?

Post Edit: Working again! =)

Testing notes
- Love the new Lanceari and Katpatuka Asabara looks, going to add the second ones to my current Pontic Campain (and some more stuff) =)

[vartan]

Pontus doesn't need Caucasian Archers. If they are not on the roster already, we can add them as mercs/regionals. As for factional units, Pontus has Toxotai, Persian Archers, Scythian Foot Archers, and Bosphoran Heavy Archers. If you will be playing competitively online, I suggest investing in and learning to use a pair of Bosphoran Heavies as they come very much in handy. In an epic 2v2 I played with gamegeek as one of my enemies (he was Pontus; and I rarely play!), he fielded a couple of deadly Bosphorans. Remember, units like Bosphorans, Syrians, Roman Imperial Archers, and the like can use melee weaponry after their ammunition is depleted. They can fill gaps, be used as mass.

[LusitanianWolf]

No, they don't have persian archers in the MP EDU, I was asking about caucasians (regionals, not as factional) because you get them first in the campain but persians would be even better. And I know that they have Scythians and Bosphorians who are realy good, I was asking for persian/eastern ones more for astectic/roleplaying reason than for balance reasons, pontus is more than fine, specialy now that their Thorakitai and Cappadokian Cavalry got a realy nice boost.

For the same reasons I would also like to have the indian elephants in the Pahlava's EDU , since IMHO they have the best and very unique skin with that beautifull tatoos and almost never are seen, but since they can only be recruited far away from the starting position and this EDU is being made for the tournament, probably wouldnt be fair for other factions =/

[vartan]

Persians should be factional and recruitable by Pontos. If they're not in the roster that's something that needs to be fixed GG2. Look at the EB site. They're factional.

[gamegeek2]

I shall fix, and give caucasians some more ammo, too.

[LusitanianWolf]

More coments:

Arjos cust 1569 and Appe Gaedotu (alpine phalanx) costs 1155? Isnt too small prices for such units?

Iberi Lancearii are now the ultimate shock force. Btw, is killing half a fresh unengaged Solduros unit (30 in 60!!!) in a single frontal charge being overpowered? I hope it isnt, because they are F***ing awesome now

Edit: ok, they usualy dont kill that much (it was down hill) but they are a certain kill in the back of any engajed unit. But now they die very easily in melee so it makes for it. I love the way they are now, even without the gorgeous horse armour.

[vartan]

You need to read the notes on the Arjos and alpine. Look even in this thread there is a discussion on that matter already.

[gamegeek2]

Alpines were always that cheap...

[LusitanianWolf]

You need to read the notes on the Arjos and alpine. Look even in this thread there is a discussion on that matter already.

Ups, sorry.

[vartan]

You seriously need to proofread the EDU changes gg. I was just in MP and Camillan Hastati costs over 300 more than Camillan Principes, eeek!

EDIT: The Romans gonna' love it tho!

[gamegeek2]

Vartan, the Camillan Hastati have 100 men, the Principes only 80. Did you notice that?

[vartan]

Vartan, the Camillan Hastati have 100 men, the Principes only 80. Did you notice that?

Yes. So why are Principes cheaper man for man?

[gamegeek2]

They aren't. Math time: 100/80 = 1.25, so we must multiply the cost of Principes by 1.25 to get a direct comparison of cost per man with Hastati. 1176 * 1.25 = 1470, which is more than the cost of early Hastati (1415) per man.

[The Celtic Viking]

It's pretty close, though.

Anyway, I've got two questions. The first is regarding the cavalry charge value system that you've implemented. Could you explain it a bit further for the unenlightened? In particular, I'm wondering about what the different tiers of cavalry mean.

Secondly, one of the factions that I thought was a rather poor choice in MP was Casse. I only saw someone else use it once (I think the game crashed or was aborted in some other way before our lines clashed) and I've tried them once myself (got my ass handed to me on a tin plate). Since you should know best, how do you think they've come out from these changes? Better? Worse? The same?

[vartan]

They aren't. Math time: 100/80 = 1.25, so we must multiply the cost of Principes by 1.25 to get a direct comparison of cost per man with Hastati. 1176 * 1.25 = 1470, which is more than the cost of early Hastati (1415) per man.

I'm guessing Camillan Principes cost the same as Hastati because the Principes use spears which are cheaper than the swords used by Hastati, correct?

[Burebista]

It's pretty close, though.

Secondly, one of the factions that I thought was a rather poor choice in MP was Casse. I only saw someone else use it once (I think the game crashed or was aborted in some other way before our lines clashed) and I've tried them once myself (got my ass handed to me on a tin plate). Since you should know best, how do you think they've come out from these changes? Better? Worse? The same?

I'm also interested in Casse. I was trying to make a functional army with Casse before the changes and the only tactic that rly paid off was a berzerk rush strat.
Basically ur army would look like this : 6-8 elite 2Hand-ers (Kluddargos-amazing/Ordmalica-factional for Casse) surrounded by lots of spear armed cannon fodder for protection (Imannae or better yet velinica at 908 mnai with 120 men) with 1 druid unit and 2 Cidaihn protecting my rear agains cavalry charges.

After the changes , this option got more interesting as Kluddargos got cheaper by 200 i think , the light cav got a higher charge/lethality & the ebherni tanks got 200 mani discount too.

Not much , but it's a plus .

What rly surprised me is not having factional Milnaht as that helps tremendously in forming a somewhat balanced line and not a berzerker one.
One definite plus is the Myrcharn , perfect light cav : I mean 1300 with 27 charge & 8 jav ...ouch. If you can keep them away from missiles , they can be a real nuisance for heavyer cav as they can never catch them , but can't turn their backs easily also.

[gamegeek2]

Casse aren't horrible...I crushed a phalanx army with the Casse very recently. There are a few things I discovered:

1. You have no heavy cavalry, hence chariots are incredibly important to defeating heavy horsemen. You have to protect them and divert enemy attention away from the chariots, so you can spring them at an opportune moment and crush your enemy's cataphracts, or whatever they have.
2. Keep your opponent out of his comfort zone. That means using unconventional tactics, particularly attacking at an angle, and avoiding linear engagements. Your troops are lighter and not of the same quality, so you will lose if you go at the enemy in a conventional linear fashion.
3. Use morale to maximum effect. The Casse have several units that offer the "command" bonus to local troops' morale. This is crucial to keeping your men fighting, as Celtic units don't have the same morale level as Germanic and Getic ones - but if you can keep your men fighting, your units have greater numbers and high-lethality swords to grind your opponent out with. At the same time, take note that the Ebherni Shock Troops now frighten nearby enemy infantry.

Here's the build I brought in that recent battle, to the best of my memory, with an analysis accompanying it:

1 Chariots - Explained earlier. Also note that they have the inspire nearby troops "command" ability.
3 Goidic Cavalry -I chose these because they have a combination of light horses (letting them outrun almost any enemies) and acceptable staying power (for barbarian javcav, that is). They are relatively expensive - 2700 mnai - but it was not too big of a deal as the rest of my army was fairly cheap.
4 Immanae - Two purposes: javelin harassment (particularly on the flanks), and meatshielding. You have to save your swordsmen, chariots, and cavalry from suffering arrow barrages, hence these hapless hooligans are sent to take the hit.
1 Sotaroas - Same purpose as the Immanae. With numbers expanded to 80 men on large, they do this job even better now, for not much more cost, and can get a couple shots off at valuable, easier to kill targets like medium cav.
1 Kluddargos - Have the command ability, plus wield brutal swords. Can be vulnerable, as they lack shields, so be sure to keep them in melee to make hitting them difficult.
2 Dubosaverlacica - Lower nearby enemy morale, have armour piercing javelins, and can take on almost any single unit and live to tell the tale. Be sure to not waste them - but don't consider using them as a flanking force a waste. Having two of them helps, so you can commit one and have the other sitting right behind the main fight, still giving off the fear effect, but ready to go at any time.
8 Botroas - Yes, 8 of them. They're extremely cost efficient, as they have 100 men, three javelins, and 0.225 lethality longswords. A perfect unit for massing in a critical attack on an enemy.

Finally, one more tip: be patient while setting up your attack, but once you commit, be aggressive and strike hard with all appropriate resources. Here's some reasoning behind that:

-You need your attack to work, as you will have to be the attacker, since if you're passive, the enemy can easily set up his 'superior' forces to overwhelm you. Hence, you must make sure you are ready to commit when you do so.
-Having positional superiority is crucial. The more enemy units you can effectively ignore, the better. That's why an angled attack on one flank works - much of the enemy's force simply can't be brought to bear without messing up his position. Keeping a few units in position to either reinforce your flank attack, deter enemy movements, or troops from one flank coming to another's aid - is a good way to take advantage of this.
-Committing all appropriate resources to the attack means sending everything to ensure victory at a crucial point in the battle. Don't feel this is overcommitting - you probably don't need to send your whole force to ensure this, and if you feel it's still too much, remember that if you don't win here, you're going to lose anyway. This means sending three cavalry units to deal with his one. This means using three units to kill one phalanx. Local superiority is the crux of a successful attack in all warfare; EB Online is no exception.

[antisocialmunky]

Points:
General:
-Any thoughts on Light -> Heavy Spear on heavy infantry? This is especially the case for spear/sword infantry since those units end up in a kill fest infantry many times due to light spear decreasing defense and heavy spear decreasing attack vs infantry. I think it would be more appropriate for atleast heavy infantry who flight in close order with shields to prefer slow combat instead of fast combat. Its really bad when you fight heavy spear infantry with AP infantry.

Cav:
-I'm actually quite worried about tweaking lance lethalities and attack. Cav is basically OP above about 32K in Vanilla EB and the only way to beat cav spam is cav spam or walls of spears and archer superiority. Though, if medium cavalry can beat the heavy chargers for cost, then it would actually work and you know, be more strategic thinking especially for factions with good quality medium cavs.

Romans:
-Restatting Marian stamina bonus drastically weakens those units against Germans and Dacians. You need the staying power to cut through the barbs. Likewise, this will make them die like flies on the Classical Hoplite shield wall. I would not want to play Romans vs KH at all because that would just end in a sitting contest. Surprisingly the KH would probably win that due to rotating in their AP Hoplite units in and out and resting them back to warmed up. Maybe the short sword .15 bonus helps them but I'm not thinking so with how crucial stamina is in this game. High Stamina + High Morale units with decent numbers and other stats are the best ones in the game. Romans really need jack of all trades infantry to be worthwhile after the reforms. They lack dedicated Assault/AP infantry unless we should be using merc nakeds or something else :\
-Are the Roman Javs still AP? If so it seems that the buff to Principles will make them quite powerful.
-Roman Cavalry including the allies? If so that will probably just make people take merc hippies instead for 2K because merc hippies are almost the same as Roman Cav.

Hellens:
-I'm assuming that now you can actually dent phalanx formations with missiles? :)
-Iph. Hoplites + Thureophoroi or Iph. Hoplites + Classical Hoplites will probably be the new main line infantry combo with archers in the back to quickly gain missile superiority via Bosphorans.
-Thorakitai Hoplitai will be amazing with .135 lethality + AP, switch me to KH Vartan! Marians don't stand a chance at all.

Baktria:
-Did you ever figure out why Indian Longbowman die like flies? I've never been able to figure out why they suck vs every competent archer in the game.
-Baktrian BG given +2 morale - lol

Steppe:
-Still OP, always will be.

Elephants and Chariots:
-Can we get 1/2 sized 1/2 cost versions of these so you can actually control them?

I hope you guys tested this fairly extensively.

Also, if you haven't fixed it already, you might want to make sure KH has all the correct units on their roster. They used to be missing some.

I might hop on to test. When are you guys on and what time zone?