[EB MP]3.0 Thread - Testing and Updates

[gamegeek2]

I still insist Archers be given poor morale. Not all players use skirmish mode and if an archer is pursued by a cav it will rout almost immediately after a few seconds of engagment which is how it should be.

Poor morale to Archers.

and could more units have Bonus fighting cav in 3.0 ?

Missile Morale is being addressed in the upcoming update, which will make some other missile changes and add the Getai.

[Burebista]

Missile Morale is being addressed in the upcoming update, which will make some other missile changes and add the Getai.

Just don't nerf them please :) . Finally they are a viable faction , and only thanks to the Balcanic merc celts.
Suggestions for Getai :
Galla-thraikes and Taxeis triballoi are prety weak for their cost
We don't have a good AP unit. Maybe bump Pelekyphoroi Komatai ( 8 Att 16 Def no jav) a little? 100 unit size or smthing?
Drapanai ...just BAD
Ischiroi Orditon ...useless

[Vega]

I wrote something wrong so i just edited post to you guys dont see it lol P.S gg2 you dont believe me but i like your edu :DD
Maybe some fixing with nietos price :DD

[Scarf]

The Gaulish factions are a bit strange. During a game between me (Romani) and Vega (Aedui) we both couldn't help but think so.
My army had outnumbered them by 400 men or so, my infantry was bringing up a good fight and his cavalry didn't manage to deal much damage either. However, a few dozen seconds after an utterly ineffective charge from his brihentin that only left them surrounded by auxiliary spearmen, my entire infantry line just shattered and routed. It was strange because his army was taking a massive amount of casualties and it said I was winning in every infantry fight.
He explained that this was because of the morale influencing units he was using, and that they were scaring my men.
Now, this just doesn't make sense.
For starters, my infantry was cutting his up pretty good. That would've been a morale booster, I'm sure. By the time my men began to rout, his line was thin compared to mine. Even if there were naked men that were foaming from their mouths or something, the fact is that all the drug-induced rage wasn't saving them. He pointed out he was using chariots, but this made little sense too.
I mean, chariots? Seriously? What is it about chariots that somehow would make them terrifying?
Their effectiveness? Certainly not, they were seen as outdated for a good reason. The horses were vulnerable and they didn't have any way of attacking that cavalry couldn't do better. They were also quite sluggish compared to cavalry
The noise they make? No way. The sound of chariots would probably drowned in the sound of fighting. I don't know how creaking bouncing wheels would make the noise of galloping horses any scarier.
The way they look? Again, I don't see how they'd be scarier than horsemen, I'd be more likely to wet myself and run if I saw some Kataphractoi.
And to top it all off, my men couldn't even see them! They were way behind the enemy infantry! And if they could see them, they'd see that they were just idly standing there!
In other words, my men were scared off by non-combatants.

Another thing is the whole 2hp thing with the Gaesatae. I'd like to ask how their drug rage or whatever it is somehow makes them that incredibly tough? Sure, it would most certainly make them quite brave, but the fact is that they're naked. If they get hit by something, they're probably down. A javelin for example would incapacitate one. It doesn't matter if he doesn't even feel it, the fact is he just got a sharp piece of metal jammed inside him. Something in his body, be it a limb or an organ probably won't work any more and stop him from fighting. He'd probably just be lying around, bleeding and roaring, but he certainly wouldn't be fighting.
In melee combat, they'd probably not fight with too much focus, so I think we could safely assume that there would be many opportunities for a trained soldier to incapacitate them. To me they seem to be a unit that should only be effective if they caught an enemy by surprise.

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

I've tested the last vers. of edu 3.0, and I've also alredy added it on eb multi edu.
I want to express my satisfaction.
Increasing the shield value, now the romans units work in the right way: more strong in defence.
Then I agree with this changes.

Congrats to GG2.

[gamegeek2]

The Gaulish factions are a bit strange. During a game between me (Romani) and Vega (Aedui) we both couldn't help but think so.
My army had outnumbered them by 400 men or so, my infantry was bringing up a good fight and his cavalry didn't manage to deal much damage either. However, a few dozen seconds after an utterly ineffective charge from his brihentin that only left them surrounded by auxiliary spearmen, my entire infantry line just shattered and routed. It was strange because his army was taking a massive amount of casualties and it said I was winning in every infantry fight.
He explained that this was because of the morale influencing units he was using, and that they were scaring my men.
Now, this just doesn't make sense.
For starters, my infantry was cutting his up pretty good. That would've been a morale booster, I'm sure. By the time my men began to rout, his line was thin compared to mine. Even if there were naked men that were foaming from their mouths or something, the fact is that all the drug-induced rage wasn't saving them. He pointed out he was using chariots, but this made little sense too.
I mean, chariots? Seriously? What is it about chariots that somehow would make them terrifying?
Their effectiveness? Certainly not, they were seen as outdated for a good reason. The horses were vulnerable and they didn't have any way of attacking that cavalry couldn't do better. They were also quite sluggish compared to cavalry
The noise they make? No way. The sound of chariots would probably drowned in the sound of fighting. I don't know how creaking bouncing wheels would make the noise of galloping horses any scarier.
The way they look? Again, I don't see how they'd be scarier than horsemen, I'd be more likely to wet myself and run if I saw some Kataphractoi.
And to top it all off, my men couldn't even see them! They were way behind the enemy infantry! And if they could see them, they'd see that they were just idly standing there!
In other words, my men were scared off by non-combatants.

Another thing is the whole 2hp thing with the Gaesatae. I'd like to ask how their drug rage or whatever it is somehow makes them that incredibly tough? Sure, it would most certainly make them quite brave, but the fact is that they're naked. If they get hit by something, they're probably down. A javelin for example would incapacitate one. It doesn't matter if he doesn't even feel it, the fact is he just got a sharp piece of metal jammed inside him. Something in his body, be it a limb or an organ probably won't work any more and stop him from fighting. He'd probably just be lying around, bleeding and roaring, but he certainly wouldn't be fighting.
In melee combat, they'd probably not fight with too much focus, so I think we could safely assume that there would be many opportunities for a trained soldier to incapacitate them. To me they seem to be a unit that should only be effective if they caught an enemy by surprise.

Be extremely wary whenever you are facing the Celtic factions, as they are able to do a tactic called double-scare. There are two unit attributes that lower enemy morale: frighten_foot/frighten_mounted and druid. Chanting druids lower enemy morale and raise friendly morale; frighten_foot gives a penalty to the morale of nearby enemy infantry (command gives an equivalent bonus). I believe chariots and elephants give an additional penalty but I'm not sure.

There's an additional penalty to morale from a unit being flanked and I think it's even bigger if the unit is attacked in the rear.

I question the 2hp thing for the Gaesatae as well, but I'm not sure how we would compensate for its removal in game balance terms; I'll have to experiment on this when I get to the Germanic naked/elite scary units. Accounts do tell of them ripping javelins out of their bodies, throwing them back at the enemy, and continuing the fight, though.

Also, I am considering giving Kataphraktoi a frighten bonus as well, but I'm extremely loathe to give that to heavy cavalry, as those already murder morale with their charges. I'm definitely considering removing frighten_foot from the Celtic chariots; the scythed ones, however, would keep it because of their murderous scythes at the wheels.

[jirisys]

For the Gaisatai and most drugged fanatics, it would be good to have their extra HP removed, and add about 5 or 6 defense, they will be vulnerable to javelins, but not as OPd as they were before, when a full volley only killed like one of them. And they would also retain their high resistance to pain and injuries.

~Jirisys ()

[Lazy O]

Gaesate are fine as is. If you change them, do like 100 tests to make sure they dont get nerfed. And scarf, yea , I understand what you are talking about, Gallic factions actually do not give a crap if you outnumber them, if they have got 2 scaries, you ahve to wear them down, avoid being flanked, and try to limit the gaesate. They are murderous. Thing is, Druid scare+Naked Gaesate+Chariot will rout any elite.

[The Celtic Viking]

I'm definitely considering removing frighten_foot from the Celtic chariots

Then there would be absolutely no reason to use them, because they cost a lot, couldn't hurt a fly and instead drops like them; the only thing that makes them worthwhile is that fear factor, and the fact that it works together with infantry that causes fear. I also fear that doing this would also hurt Casse a lot, and make them not exactly Sweboz, but definitely a push in that direction - and they're already quite weak.

I do see the other side as well, but perhaps a better choice would be to do with them for the Gauls what is already done for the SPQR: make them bound to their reform. I.e., if you bring them as Gauls, you are limited to only pre-first-reform units, as they disappear for them afterwards. Or just make a slightly gamey move and remove them from the Gauls' roster, as they were mostly outdated there already at the start of the game. I don't think the double-scare tactic is as strong with Casse as it is with the Gauls, as you don't have the same quality infantrywise, and you don't have much other choice with them. But since Casse is hardly ever played with in MP that's of course just a guess on my side.

[-Stormrage-]

I question the 2hp thing for the Gaesatae as well, but I'm not sure how we would compensate for its removal in game balance terms;

I think you should Leave their 2hp alone, and remove that 4 armour they're getting from that helmet.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Please don't give cataphracts the scary trait! If anything, it should be removed from the super heavy armored infantry. The whole idea of scaring the enemy was because your opponent was so bold as to go naked that they must not fear battle at all! This might be a terrifying thought to someone more accustomed to tilling the fields than facing down a celtic warrior wearing nothing more than a torc.

As far as chariots, I can understand removing the scary trait from them but fear, like TCV, that this would seriously hurt the Casse. Also removing them from the mainland Gallic factions doesn't make that much sense as Gauls were using chariots as far along as Telamon against the Romans which is over 50 years into our timeframe. If anything should be done, the Druid unit should be removed from the Gallic rosters. These are only recruitable on Britain yet so are the Swordmasters and we don't see them in Gallic armies for mp. That way, only the Aedui would be able to bring a chanting unit (one which is more expensive) while the Arjos could be given a bit of a boost as well so that it would also make sense to play as Arverni. This would be a much better "fix" to the Gauls.

Also, now that I think about it, make the Carnutes 80 men and raise the price accordingly. It only serves to help the Gauls that they can bring a unit for a relatively cheap cost which is not supposed to fight in combat anyway.

[gamegeek2]

I did remove it from the super heavy infantry.

I suppose 80 man carnutes make sense as does the druid restriction.

I think you should Leave their 2hp alone, and remove that 4 armour they're getting from that helmet.

Wait, stat them as if they didn't have something that they did have, and the game shows they have?

Few quick updates coming soon.

[The Celtic Viking]

Also removing them from the mainland Gallic factions doesn't make that much sense as Gauls were using chariots as far along as Telamon against the Romans which is over 50 years into our timeframe.

Yes, I've admitted that it would be a gamey decision for that very reason. If you remove their fear trait, though, no Gallic player would use chariots anymore (why would you?), so in effect it would be the same, only now things are seriously worse for Casse.

Another option might be to remove the fear from the 40-man chariots, but keep it on the 20-man chariot, which is exclusive to the Casse. Though that's obviously gamey too, and inconsistent to boot. (And still a slight weakening of Casse.) Sigh.

That way, only the Aedui would be able to bring a chanting unit (one which is more expensive) while the Arjos could be given a bit of a boost as well so that it would also make sense to play as Arverni. This would be a much better "fix" to the Gauls.

While I have thought about this before and, well, lets say "reluctantly came to the conclusion that the other position doesn't hold up". I've been very loath to admit it because there already is no sense in picking the Arverni, and this change would only make it even worse. It would have to be more than "a bit" of a boost, in other words.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

While I have thought about this before and, well, lets say "reluctantly came to the conclusion that the other position doesn't hold up". I've been very loath to admit it because there already is no sense in picking the Arverni, and this change would only make it even worse. It would have to be more than "a bit" of a boost, in other words.

When playing the Aedui last month, I came to the conclusion that I should have picked the Arverni actually. Arjos are simply the most cost effective line infantry there is. Ask Lazy as we had a battle where one unit of Arjos held off two units of Argyraspides for the entire battle! Making Carnutes more expensive along with a slight boost to Arjos would make it much more difficult to put together a heavier Gallic army as Aedui while it would be relatively simple as the Arverni.

[Vega]

Is this normal?! Cohorts now look like some kind of skirmishers this is totaly pathethic move i dont know why even you do this https://imageshack.us/photo/my-image...000365881.jpg/ bcz they beat boi cingetos? of course that cohort will beat cingetos really pathetic what you exept now from hastati, nothing roman best atack was their exelent defence now that is totaly changed have some look on other factions and try to resolve iberian assualt spam or nietos spam instead of making cohorts to look even worse and like skirmishers, other factions with 40000 can bring OP army and you caught on ALL ROMAN INFRATRY which looks fine until you made this very bad mistake I am really stubborn and nothing cant persuade me that i am wrong bcz everything i said is clear and right..

[jirisys]

What the hell are you talking about?

That's how hastati looked like in the times of the second punic war; poor. Same with the other two line-infantry classes, the triarii were only different because of their plate cuirass, and the principes because of their lorica hamata.

Besides, my Pontic cataphracts will rout whatever barbaroi coming to my lands! . Just kidding, but you should be glad, at least your line infantry is not Lugoae.

Also, you should implement short_pike attributes to hoplites in order to have more cohesive formations. And compensating for the spear and light_spear -4 def/attack bonus (respectively) to the stats.

~Jirisys ()

[-Stormrage-]

GG were you drunk when u updated the EDU? Elites have 60 men, persian archers now have 80 men, thesalians lost stamina and cost 4000 . spartans 3000 cost for 60 men.

[Lazy O]

Vega is right, carthage is horribly overpowered with 40k, you can spam an Iberian Assault numidian Archer and Lanceari army which is quite unbeatable. Plus you still have money left over for liby phoenician elites :/

[jirisys]

Vega is right, carthage is horribly overpowered with 40k, you can spam an Iberian Assault numidian Archer and Lanceari army which is quite unbeatable. Plus you still have money left over for liby phoenician elites :/

Aren't all the iberians OPd with AP?

And what about the mercenary/AOR limit?

~Jirisys ()

[vartan]

What the hell are you talking about?

That wasn't nice. And what are you doing here? When do you ever play with these players whose arguments are based on experience playing one another, not with sub-mod creation and single player campaigns and AARs?
--------------------------------------------------------
I highly recommend picking one scare factor to remove from the Celts (Gauls? What do you call these people?! I hate to use these terms interchangeably, I feel like I'm making a major violation each time.) Really, if we look at the world map for EB, you only have these three factions that can utilize this freak tactic (please forgive my language) to call the shots. Can we get to a place where scare factors play more of a minor role, factions in question become less dependent on them, and good old churning out the carnage on the field becomes our pride and joy? Call me old and idealist. I think there is merit in this. Just my modest two pence for my fellows.

[Lazy O]

Actually no not all the iberians or any iberian unit is OP. 40k just permits spamming the elites which makes them op.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Yeah, the mnai limit didn't need to be increased if some of the medium infantry and missile units didn't receive extra men.

And @ storm, GG2 didn't get around to the Greek and Eastern factions yet so those units are statted as they were for vanilla EB.

[antisocialmunky]

Actually, I wouldn't mind it if you gave "Scares Foot" to cavalry if you take it off most non-naked infantry. Only few infantry should have it. It makes sense on cavalry Kataphractoi though, especially if you reduced their melee fighting/defensive ability due to the ridiculous armor or just gave them completely terrible stamina.

However, the design of the cataphract also presents some potential weaknesses. Besides requiring expensive maintenance, the heavy armor of cataphracts was at times unwieldy. The excessive armor made it difficult to flee from battle or perform quick maneuvering in battle. The inability to flee from battle due to armor has been mentioned in several occasions. Heliodorus wrote that the armor was so weighty that riders required assistance to mount their horses. This description was probably true, since unlike medieval cavalrymen, ancient cavalrymen did not have the benefit of the stirrup to mount their horses.

The lack of stirrups in ancient cavalry warfare also restricted the effectiveness of cataphracts in melee combat. While stirrups were not essential to charging (for which the saddle would be the most crucial), stirrups were important in providing the rider with stability in melee. In Crassus’ battle against the Parthians, Plutarch describes the vulnerability of cataphracts in maintained melee combat: “For they (the Roman cavalry) laid hold of the long spears of the Parthians, and grappling with the men, pushed them from their horses.” Such accounts may be anecdotal or artificial, but there is no doubt that riders who were unhorsed became easy prey, as they were probably too clumsy to quickly get up to fight in the middle of a melee. Heliodorus also mentions that cataphracts who were unhorsed were like logs on the ground.

http://www.allempires.com/article/in...?q=cataphracts

The only problem you would have is against 240 sized levy spearmen which are suppose to attrition them but would probably break due to scary charge. I really do like the idea of Kataphracts basically being a one time commit unit though. Their whole point was to break the enemy in a frontal charge after their lines were weakened. You didn't do fancy maneuvers or anything, you just shot the enemy up enough that you could break in a single massive charge after a few hours:)

It would atleast make for some interesting changes for cav fighting. It should only be done for the elite, 3.3K+ fully armored guys though or maybe just the super heavy elites like the Baktrian/Parthian Late and .

PS. The spacing on the Romans do look weird from that angle. I think you should change it back to where it was.
PPS. I like TCV's suggestion. I would actually remove the 40 sized chariots. They are basically completely unrealistic because they were mainly used as battle taxis for elites and not scythed chariots. Maybe just put eagles on them? If you remove scary from Gaullic chariots, you would probably want to put fire arrows back in.

[gamegeek2]

We should try both 36k and 40k.

I am almost positive that I should increase the cost of Iberian Assault infantry somehow.

My sense is that a troop of levy spears would break and run if they even saw cataphracts charging at them, or if they were hit by a cata charge.

[vartan]

If you remove scary from Gaullic chariots, you would probably want to put fire arrows back in.

While we're at it, let's put dogs and pigs back in as well.

We should try both 36k and 40k.

I am almost positive that I should increase the cost of Iberian Assault infantry somehow.

My sense is that a troop of levy spears would break and run if they even saw cataphracts charging at them, or if they were hit by a cata charge.

Could you respond to the second part of my post: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053362064

[Lazy O]

I will come at you at a stake if we end up on 36k and you still increase the cost of the Assault Infantry.

[The Celtic Viking]

(Gauls? What do you call these people?! I hate to use these terms interchangeably, I feel like I'm making a major violation each time.)

Gaul is a region in western Europe, Gauls are the Celts from that region. The term Celt, while covering the Gauls, also includes people not from Gaul, such as the Celts in Britain, Iberia, Galatia, Egypt etc. etc. In game terms, when you talk about "the Gauls", you speak of the Aedui and the Arverni, while "Celts" would also include the Casse.

As to your point, yes, I do agree, but I think it is only overpowered for the Gauls. For Casse that strategy isn't as strong due to having inferior infantry, especially now that (I take it) the Dubosaverlacica have lost/will lose their fear factor. Since Casse can't get the Gaesatae, their best scare infantry, unless they are given access to the Pictone Neitos, is the Uirodusios, and you know how easily they die.

With cavalry that is only good for chasing routers, you're basically forced to go for the double-scare anyway; if you can't, then why go for Casse? They've got worse infantry than Gauls and I've already said what I think of their cavalry.

Also, you should implement short_pike attributes to hoplites in order to have more cohesive formations. And compensating for the spear and light_spear -4 def/attack bonus (respectively) to the stats.

No, please don't do this. It has already been done with the Germanic pikes, and it looks completely ridiculous. I could never take hoplites seriously again if you did this.

(Oh, and if you give Kataphracts the scares infantry trait, you might as well have the Panzerlied come on when they move too. :p)

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

The weakness of Iberian Assaults and their cousins the Pedites Extraordinarii is their lack of defense against cavalry and ineffectiveness against lighter units. Don't use your heavy infantry against them people and make them the first targets for hammer and anvil attacks. I don't find PE/Iberian spam to be difficult to defeat.

[antisocialmunky]

I told you guys that 40K really favors successors and guys with lots of elite units to choose from.

You could go for 36K or 38K (we tested but also favors extremely powerful cavalry wings).

[Lazy O]

Problem is that with the Iberian assault spam you also get some of the best cavalry in the game :/ . At 36k, I had to compromise on any 1 or i get an ineffective army.