Questions about Carthage

**CCadaver** · 09-06-2011, 08:24

Hey guys,

I am very interested in Canaanite history, especially Carthage. I was wondering if you guys could answer a few questions for me?

First of all, what does Safot Softim biQarthadast mean? I get that bi- means "Of", and that Qarthadast is the city, but the other two words are a mystery to me.

Also, what were the two legislative bodies of carthage called?

And what about the nature of worship. How did they worship their gods, and did certain temples really practice prostitution?

Finally, what was their wine like?

Thanks in advance for the time, guys. I really like EB, and I am looking forward to playing EBII

**XSamatan** · 09-06-2011, 10:15

You might want to check out books and sources from the EB-bibliography about this topic.

XSamatan

**Lvcretivs** · 09-08-2011, 11:04

Originally Posted by CCadaver

(...) First of all, what does Safot Softim biQarthadast mean? I get that bi- means "Of", and that Qarthadast is the city, but the other two words are a mystery to me. (...)

Don't take my words for granted, but 'Safot' likely refers to the Carthaginian suffetes - the highest ranking Punic/Phoenician magistrates roughly equivalent to the Roman consules, while 'Softim' (cf. Hebrew 'Shoftim') are the 'judges', the Carthaginian 'counterpart'(?) to the Roman senate (see e.g. 'The Phoenicians and the West: politics, colonies and trade')

'Safot Softim biQarthadast' would therefore (see Teleklos Archelaou's ancient post at TWC) be a rather formal title of the Carthaginian state equivalent to the latin 'senatus populusque romanus'.

**CCadaver** · 09-09-2011, 06:36

Originally Posted by Lvcretivs

Don't take my words for granted, but 'Safot' likely refers to the Carthaginian suffetes - the highest ranking Punic/Phoenician magistrates roughly equivalent to the Roman consules, while 'Softim' (cf. Hebrew 'Shoftim') are the 'judges', the Carthaginian 'counterpart'(?) to the Roman senate (see e.g. 'The Phoenicians and the West: politics, colonies and trade')

'Safot Softim biQarthadast' would therefore (see Teleklos Archelaou's ancient post at TWC) be a rather formal title of the Carthaginian state equivalent to the latin 'senatus populusque romanus'.

I believe that Suffet was just a latinization of Shophet. Both mean judges. But your idea does seem pretty good, and I think you may be right.

@XSamatan, I have ordered the only book that my library carries, but it's not arrived yet. So far I have read everything I can find for free on the internet.

**Blazing141** · 09-09-2011, 22:58

My guess would be that Safot is a corruption of the Hebrew word Tsva'ot, which means "armies" or "hosts" and I agree that the reference to Softim is a plural form of Shophet, a judge or consul type magistrate....thus safot softim should/could really be written as "tsva'ot shoftim be Qart Hadasht..." which would mean "the Hosts of the Judges of Carthage." This derived from the very close linguistic relationship between Hebrew and the Carthaginian language.

As an aside...Qarthadasht is a conflation of Qartah Hadasha (again from Hebrew) meaning new land...

Hope that helps...

**Blazing141** · 09-09-2011, 23:08

As a further aside, my above formulation comports with history in that the Carthaginian army was not, in fact, Carthaginian in composition, but rather, the suphetes relied primarily on mercenary armies to do their bidding. Hence, the distinction between the judges and their armies is apt.

**CCadaver** · 09-17-2011, 00:06

Originally Posted by Blazing141

My guess would be that Safot is a corruption of the Hebrew word Tsva'ot, which means "armies" or "hosts" and I agree that the reference to Softim is a plural form of Shophet, a judge or consul type magistrate....thus safot softim should/could really be written as "tsva'ot shoftim be Qart Hadasht..." which would mean "the Hosts of the Judges of Carthage." This derived from the very close linguistic relationship between Hebrew and the Carthaginian language.

This is probably my favorite explaination so far. Also, in case anyone is interested, I did figure out how Carthaginian wine was like. It was probably very similar to greek wine, but with a resin-like taste which seemed to be very polarizing. Either you loved it or hated it, but I haven't seen any evidence of anyone thinking it was just "okay".

**vartan** · 09-10-2011, 22:36

Originally Posted by Lvcretivs

Don't take my words for granted, but 'Safot' likely refers to the Carthaginian suffetes - the highest ranking Punic/Phoenician magistrates roughly equivalent to the Roman consules, while 'Softim' (cf. Hebrew 'Shoftim') are the 'judges', the Carthaginian 'counterpart'(?) to the Roman senate (see e.g. 'The Phoenicians and the West: politics, colonies and trade')

'Safot Softim biQarthadast' would therefore (see Teleklos Archelaou's ancient post at TWC) be a rather formal title of the Carthaginian state equivalent to the latin 'senatus populusque romanus'.

This is pretty much it from what I've studied of the words. I forget but Safot might also be related to the word in Punic for 'province' (ofc these would be governed by a political officer and there are cases in many languages in which the words for provincial governor and 'province' are similar/related). I'd imagine it to be quite futile though to try and create an English translation of the title and am also curious if there is any inscription with this title or if it was artificially formed.

**moonburn** · 09-15-2011, 04:41

so "army magister of kart hadast" ?

best translation or transliteration to english i can make

altough if we use the roman notion of "public man" then politician/general = leader so we can/could consider the term magister as leader of the armies of kart hadast as well as the 1st man or one of the best men / or the 1st amongst his pears of the great city of carthage