[EB]3v3 or 4v4 Historical Battle Idea

[Arjos]

I find it hard to believe that a Roman like Africanus, was taking part merely as a legatus, doesn't make sense, so I'll give him 4 legions too, making it all the standard double consular composition, adding 20.000 men and making the battle even...

[Lazy O]

I want romans so I can bash some romans.

That is all.

[Vega]

im GONNA be ScipiO! And im going to do my best,, :P, also dont compare Marian-imperial rome with polybians they are more different i wanted to play vs macedons but Magnesia is nice as well :D

[TheShakAttack]

That is certainly one approach (doubling the size of the recorded army and refusing to accept it), lol. The other would be to give significant experience bumps to the romans. Am I incorrect in thinking that they were a lot more experienced that Anti's AS army?

[Arjos]

The thing is that for Livy, Antiochos lost like 50k men, 3k cavalry, 1.5k captured with some escaping...
Read even that Seleukidai were 70k in total, but you can add the numbers and is close to 50k...
I think there's ground to believe he took away 20k from the Romani and put it to the other side...

As for the experience, it could be that there were some veterans from Hispania and Africa...
But what happened was the chariots disrupted the flank routing, Eumenes exploited that routing the left, while Antiochos mad rushed toward the camp, just to be halted and beaten there, with the center giving up while peppered by pila and not being able to form the phalanx...

[TheShakAttack]

The thing is that for Livy, Antiochos lost like 50k men, 3k cavalry, 1.5k captured with some escaping...
Read even that Seleukidai were 70k in total, but you can add the numbers and is close to 50k...
I think there's ground to believe he took away 20k from the Romani and put it to the other side...

As for the experience, it could be that there were some veterans from Hispania and Africa...
But what happened was the chariots disrupted the flank routing, Eumenes exploited that routing the left, while Antiochos mad rushed toward the camp, just to be halted and beaten there, with the center giving up while peppered by pila and not being able to form the phalanx...

I wasn't really asking about what happened- rather, were the roman troops sig more experienced than AS in Magnesia? If so, we could use this to try and balance things out in our battle...

[Arjos]

I wrote that, because that's what we know and pretty much is what we have to extrapolate if someone was a veteran given his performace :P
Seeing how casualties are very inflated, I'd say that most likely the people who got killed were the kataphraktoi (Livy says how the weight slowed them down), all AS light troops routed just at the sight of the chariots (they were the less experienced in the battle), and the 4 cavalry squadrons plus the camp guards managed to repel Antiochos...

From that the experienced soldiers on the roman side were: Eumenes', Cn. Domitius' cavalry, the Makedones and the Thraikioi...

[TheShakAttack]

From that the experienced soldiers on the roman side were: Eumenes', Cn. Domitius' cavalry, the Makedones and the Thraikioi...

Compared to most of the AS troops, right?

I mean: is it accurate giving the roman troops an exp bonus and not giving one to AS thereby stating that the Roman troops you mention above were more experienced?

[Arjos]

Yes, Antiochos' army was fairly fresh recruited, except for the Medians and Syrians hetairoi, who most likely took part in his eastern expedition...
The Makedones and Thraikioi actually volunteered, so yes killing was their thing :D
Eumenes seemed like a pretty sharp tactician with decent men at his command...
Domitius was actually routed, by getting wheeled from the river, but the camp's tribune regrouped them, so maybe Aemilius gets the credit, even though was Eumenes with only 200 that saved the camp...

As for the roman infantry, the triarii might have fought against Hannibal, but nothing special...
There must have been 8 legions instead of 4, that would explain also why the 16.000 phalangitai played for time...

[Lazy O]

You guys are trusting anceint sources for numbers ? REALLY?

[TheShakAttack]

It is a histotical battle. i'm happy for the numbers to be adapted though. just exploring diff approaches: more balanced nos vs same numbers but more exp for romans.

[Arjos]

There were two consular armies, and that makes sense, just look at the roman cavalry: 3.400 for 4 legions?!

[Kival]

You guys are trusting anceint sources for numbers ? REALLY?

Do you have better sources?

[Lazy O]

A brain?

[The Celtic Viking]

A brain?

Unless you're saying that we (or is that you personally?) should just make shit up and pretend as if that's historical - or even serious - then you're going to have to be a little less vague, and a lot more precise.

[vartan]

Do you have better sources?

Guys, I have to say, you would do very well to adjust ancient reports on army sizes for propoganda. If that means evening ridiculous differentials, then please, by all means do so. There is no need to fall into the laps of the ancients, especially those commissioned by rulers to write a past that makes their state appear most superior and their rule the most legitimate...

P.S. Nothing 'historical' was produced until the last couple centuries. What we think of as history is non-existent in the ancient world.

[Lazy O]

Thank you vartan.

[The Celtic Viking]

Don't worry, Vartan, no one here (that I can see, anyway) is advocating that we should have complete faith in their words.

[Arjos]

Not that, but still omitted legions sounds more reasonable than all Romani being veterans even as hastati and velites, when recruited the very same year XD

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I'm working on unit lists right now. The armies are going to be somewhat similar in size with a small advantage to the AS. AS will have far superior cavalry but I will try to cause some coordination problems in a couple of different ways. We also have to edit the export_units to give romans elephants and such so I will post an edited one for historical battle play sometime before the weekend.

Oh, and I'm planning on using Makedonia to represent Pergamon. Thoughts?

[Arjos]

I've already posted a list with EB units in page 2...

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I've already posted a list with EB units in page 2...

Yes, but you didn't actually convert it into in game units with unit sizes considered and such.

Ok, this was a bit tricky and I'm sure there will be some varying opinions on this which I would love to hear such as "Robin, you are an idiot." Anyway, this is just a basic outline that I put together in 20 minutes in custom army construction

Map: Unknown though it there are any ideas on how we can possibly implement a river and flat map together I'm all ears.
Weather conditions: I read that there may have been a drizzle during the battle which impeded the compound bows of Antiochus' skirmishers. I'm all for this to help balance a bit.
AS armies
Center:
4 Klerouchoi Phalangitai (1 with captain)
9 Pantadapoi Phalangitai
1 Thanvare Payadag
1 Thanvare Parsig
1 Toxotai
1 Gund-i-Palta
1 Toxotai Kretikoi
1 Shuban-i-Fradakhshana
1 Elephantes Indikoi

Right:
1 Somatophylakes Strategou w/ 1 chevron (Antiochus and captain)
1 Hetairoi w/ 1 chevron
3 Hellenikoi Kataphractoi
1 Argyraspides w/ 1 chevron (I'm torn between these or Hypaspistai because the use with cavalry would seem to indicate the latter and Hellenic elites were often confused by historians)
1 Dahae Riders
1 Galatikoi Kuarothoroi
1 Thanvare Payadag
1 Gund-i-Palta
1 Elephantes Indikoi

Left:
1 Hetairoi w/ 1 chevron (captain)
3 Hellenikoi Kataphractoi
1 Galatikoi Kuarothoroi
2 Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai (these are the cappadocians supposedly armed in galatian style)
1 Misthophoroi Uazali
1 Anatolikoi Phyletai
1 Hetairoi Aspidophoroi
2 Cuerpos (galatian cav is mentioned and I think the heavy cav would be overkill here but again, your suggestions are requested)
1 Shivatir-i-Pahlavanig (representing absent camel archers)
1 Harmata Drepanophora
1 Elephantes Indikoi
1 Thanvare Payadag
1 Akontistai

Roman army
Center:
1 Equites Consulares (captain and Lucius Scipio)
2 Hastai
2 Principes w/ 1 chevron
1 Triarii w/ 2 chevrons
2 Hastati Samnitici
2 Pezoi Brutii w/1 chevron
1 Triarii w/2 chevrons (ok with either Triarii or even Pedites here)
2 Velites
2 Akontistai
1 Toxotai
1 Equites Romani
1 African Forest Elephant unit (needs to be added to Roman roster)

Left:
Same army except substitute Equites Romani for Equites Consulares and remove the final Equites Romani unit so there is only 1
No elephants
Replace Toxotai with Accensi for flavor

Right: (Makedonia)
1 Hetairoi w/ 2 chevrons (captain)
2 Lonchophoi Hippeis w/ 1 chevron (substituting for Roman cavalry on that wing, plus gives a better chance against cataphracts)
4 Peltastai
1 Toxtotai
1 Spendonetai
1 Toxotai Kretikoi
1 Taxeis Triballoi w/ 1 chevron
1 Thrakioi Peltastai w/ 1 chevron
1 Thureophoi w/ 1 chevron (these three units represent the Makedonian/Thracian mercs who guarded the camp but in this battle may actually be needed)

I plan on editing a few things in the edu as well.
1. African elephants must be given back to Romans
2. Fear effect removed from cataphracts. Fear from properly used elephants and chariots is enough, but from cataphracts as well? Too much
3. Toying with giving Principes and Bruitians 100 men to match Hastati.

As always, give me your thoughts and recommendations. The numbers in these armies favor the AS by about 300 men which is perfect imo. The mnai spent is substantially favoring the AS however, about 10k per army section (or the price of an elephant unit). I can rectify this by giving Romans more men but this would disrupt numbers balance, or further chevroning them up which doesn't seem right to me either. Is there any other way you guys can see to balance this a bit more let me know. It definitely will be a challenge, though not impossible for the Romans. After all, the AS severely lacks mobile infantry and the two wings will have trouble bringing cavalry to bear successfully if they can't coordinate with the main phalanx line.

[Arjos]

Didn't know if we were going HUGE or LARGE :P

I agree with no fear for cataphracts (and I'd say even for the MP EDU)...
Isn't Kataphraktoi Indikoi a bit too much though?

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Didn't know if we were going HUGE or LARGE :P

I agree with no fear for cataphracts (and I'd say even for the MP EDU)...
Isn't Kataphraktoi Indikoi a bit too much though?

For armored elephants perhaps. I just think they look cool :p
I think large would have to do. We don't want Rome total lag.

[TheShakAttack]

"Robin you are an idiot".

[Arjos]

Oh another, instead of argyraspidai, let's use the Agema Thorakitai ^^

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

"Robin you are an idiot".

Thank you for your insightful, and as always, constructive criticism Shak.

I'm not sure if TAB's had been introduced into the Seleucid army yet at this point so I'd tend to shy away from them. I'd think Argyraspides would denote either the pike contingent or a Hypaspist type unit intended to work much as Alexander's had.

[Arjos]

I thought they were developed after his eastern campaign pretty much like the Kataphraktoi, after all post Magnesia it's all downfall :(

BTW, if you allow me to brag, my indian kataphract elephants just had 956 kills. Beat that!

And with this, I hope we don't favour AS further, so unarmoured elephants please :P

[TheShakAttack]

Robin, Lazy, this was a great idea. Just wanted to let you know we had our first battle. Looks like history indeed repeats itself :)

Replay here: http://www.mediafire.com/?xaj14m3wz3s2son

Teams:

Rome- Arjos, Vega, and me

AS- Aga, TCV, and Yavana

[Arjos]

Magnesia was fun, so here's Raphia according to Polybios:

Battle of Raphia (217 BC)
Map: EB The Qattara

Ptolemaioi (roughly 75.000)

Ptolemaios IV Philopator (left)

Ptolemy's guard (general unit) - 1x Somatophylakes Strategou
40 african elephants - 2x Elephantes Hulaioi Liboukoi
700 cavalry of the guard - 1x Agema Klerouchon Hippeon (2 chevrons)
2.300 lybian and egyptian horses - 2x Machimoi Hippeis
3.000 royal agema - 3x Basilikon Agema
3.000 Lybians armed in the macedonian fashion - 3x Thureophoroi
3.000 Cretans - 3x Kretikoi Toxotai (1 chevron)
5.000 phalanx body - 5x Klerouchoi Phalangitai

Andromachos (center left)

20.000 phalanx body (general unit) - 15x Klerouchoi Phalangitai and 5x Pezhetairoi

Sosibios (center right)

20.000 egyptian phalanx (general unit) - 20x Machimoi Phalangitai

Echecrates (right)

2.000 greek mercenary cavalry (general unit) - 2x Lonchophoroi Hippeis (1 chevron)
8.000 greek mercenaries - 8x Hoplitai
4.000 Galatian settlers - 4x Galatikoi Klerouchoi
2.000 Thracians - 2x Thraikioi Peltastai (1 chevron)
2.000 peltasts - 2x Peltastai
33 african elephants - 2x Elephantes Hulaioi Liboukoi

Arche Seleukeia (roughly 68.000)

Antiochos III Megas (right)

4.000 royal cavalry (general unit) - 1x Somatophylakes Strategou and 4x Hetairoi
60 indian elephants - 3x Elephantes Indikoi
1.500 Cretans - 2x Kretikoi Toxotai
5.000 light-armed Dahae, Carmanians and Cilicians in the macedonian fashion - 5x Thureophoroi
5.000 greek mercenaries - 5x Hoplitai

Nicarchos (center right)

20.000 phalanx body - 15x Pantodapoi Phalangitai and 5x Klerouchoi Phalangitai

Theodotos (center left)

10.000 silver shields - 10x Argyraspides
10.000 Arabs - 5x Bnei Shevet 'Arabim (1 chevron) and 5x Erínamesh ana-Arabim (2 chevrons)

Themison (left)

2.000 cavalry (general unit) - 2x Asabârân-î Mâdâën
42 indian elephants - 2x Elephantes Indikoi
500 lydian javelineers - 1x Akontistai
1.000 Cardaces - 1x Shipri Tukul
5.000 Medes, Cissians, Cadusians and Carmanians - 2x Kôfyârên-î Verkhânâ, 3x Tabargânê Êrânshahr
1.000 agrianian slingers - 1x Sphendonetai
1.000 persian bowmen - 1x Thanvarê Pârsig
2.000 Thracians - 2x Thraikioi Peltastai

This battle is a MASSIVE infantry clash, we are going to need 4v4, so people come hither!

PS: I gave chevrons to the units said to have received specific training prior to the campaign, if anyone spots the need for more to balance the battle, do tell :)