[EB]3v3 or 4v4 Historical Battle Idea

[Yavana]

I dibs Antiochus!

[TheShakAttack]

My troops have hailed me Imperator on the field of battle yesterday. Superbly supported by our Pergamon Allies, Rome was victorious. I am writing from Campus Martius to you, Senate of EBO, to ask for a Triumph.

[Lazy O]

Just because I was not around.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Did Ptolemais ride to the battle on an elephant? I don't recall that being mentioned. I would tend to include him in the 700 cavalry of the guard, and maybe make those Somaphylakes Strategou. Same with the AS, add in a Soma unit for Antiochus and subtract a Hetairoi. Or just keep it 4 and add the Soma for the AS and use either a unit of Hetairoi or Agema cav for the Ptolies along with a Soma. The eagle helps represent the main general as opposed to captains and also their closest knit bodyguards. Also, you are missing a unit of Agema infantry for the Ptollies. Balance looks reasonable, moreso than Magnesia, and look what happened with that! Upset special.

As far as that battle went...Wow! Great job by the Romans/Pergamese commanders. Its funny because history sort of repeated itself. A brazen advance by the Pergamese general made that side of the Seleucid line give way and exposed the rear of the phalanx which led to confusion and eventually no flank support. And on the right side, the Seleucids were too slow in exploiting any advantage they had in order to save the main line. As I'd hoped, it appears that it was difficult for the two wings to coordinate with the phalangites against a mobile foe. Awesome battle guys!

I'm gonna repost this on the main forum to see if it gets anyone interested in MP.

[The Celtic Viking]

As far as that battle went...Wow! Great job by the Romans/Pergamese commanders. Its funny because history sort of repeated itself. A brazen advance by the Pergamese general made that side of the Seleucid line give way and exposed the rear of the phalanx which led to confusion and eventually no flank support. And on the right side, the Seleucids were too slow in exploiting any advantage they had in order to save the main line. As I'd hoped, it appears that it was difficult for the two wings to coordinate with the phalangites against a mobile foe. Awesome battle guys!

It was impossible because Aga, who was controlling the Phalanx, would not do anything and I couldn't do anything without him. He just let the whole Roman army run and flank us even though I told him to move multiple times and even had to move out on my own before he reacted in any sort of way. Me and yav also had to tell him to help Yav at all, and not just leave him alone which would've seen Yav die even if Pergamon had been his only opponent. IIRC, all he then did was to move his phalanx to... protect his phalanx line from getting flanked, leaving Yav to his fate. Yav then got a connection problem - I don't know what happened, but if he rage quitted, I wouldn't blame him. I just suicide charged in the end out of frustration.

With someone else than Aga in that position, we might've had a chance. And yes, I'm still bloody annoyed.

[Arjos]

Fixed the units, thx for the heads up...
About Ptolemaios, I wasn't even sure to add him, he pretty much took part as an inspiring presence with Arsinoe, but I gave him a bodyguard unit now...
Had to move his 2.000 peltastai to the other wing commander, as the left went over 20 units :S

About Magnesia, as I said to Shak last night: no matter which composition your army has, teamwork will win ^^ (Even though we spent half the time before engagement to convince Vega we weren't doomed lol)
He's going to make a commentary, we can add that to your post to advertise :)
The bigger the community, the more epic our events will get!

[Lazy O]

I wont be playing Raphia. Or anything EB for that matter. Might get some games in on Nov 18-19.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

It was impossible because Aga, who was controlling the Phalanx, would not do anything and I couldn't do anything without him. He just let the whole Roman army run and flank us even though I told him to move multiple times and even had to move out on my own before he reacted in any sort of way. Me and yav also had to tell him to help Yav at all, and not just leave him alone which would've seen Yav die even if Pergamon had been his only opponent. IIRC, all he then did was to move his phalanx to... protect his phalanx line from getting flanked, leaving Yav to his fate. Yav then got a connection problem - I don't know what happened, but if he rage quitted, I wouldn't blame him. I just suicide charged in the end out of frustration.

With someone else than Aga in that position, we might've had a chance. And yes, I'm still bloody annoyed.

It appears, and I wasn't playing so I'm not sure, from the replay that Aga may have had a hard time considering his phalanx as the component of a larger army, rather than an army in and of itself. He was hesitant and looked like he wanted to play defense although he controlled about 80% of your infantry. In any event, it shows the frustration of getting your subordinates to do what you want in battle.

[gamegeek2]

I definitely want in on any future historical battles.

And I look forward to seeing the replay (I'm away from home atm and for some reason forgot to bring my laptop charger!)

[Arjos]

I wont be playing Raphia. Or anything EB for that matter. Might get some games in on Nov 18-19.

No worries, get your studying done, all army compositions are here to stay carved into rock, we can play them anytime ^^

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

What map would suit Raphia well? Syrian flats? I know it was fought near the shore but not up against the water as far as I'm aware.

[Arjos]

I was thinking "The Qattara", mainly to avoid the plainness of flat maps :D

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Ok I remember looking at that one. As long as there isn't a hill it should be fine. Just be aware that slight elevation differences mean everything in phalangite warfare though.

[Yavana]

Network is FULL FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!

[vartan]

I highly recommend using voice chat for each team in order to make the coordination far better. This isn't speculation. I can attest to its success.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Well in some instances, we want coordination to be poor or challenging a la the Seleucids at Magnesia. Team chat represents such difficulties in the heat of battle.

[Lazy O]

Because some people do not see chat...

[The Celtic Viking]

Well in some instances, we want coordination to be poor or challenging a la the Seleucids at Magnesia. Team chat represents such difficulties in the heat of battle.

There's no need to cripple the handicapped, they already have a mobility deficit.

[Kival]

I'm not so sure if I'd like to use teamchat or skype or something similar. I actually like just writing. I don't think the problem is one of the communication medium, it's the communication itself. Between some players it's working and between others not. Seems to be kinda normal to me.

By the way, would it be possible to represent some battle of the mithridates wars or are our units too outdated for that?

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Definitely not too outdated. IIRC the early Pontic armies were composed mainly of phalangites while the later ones were done more in imitation of the Roman way of fighting. Both types of units are certainly available to us.

Which battle did you have in mind? It might make a good third entry after Raphia.

[Arjos]

What happened in our Magnesia as far as I can tell wasn't a lack of communication, but team members fighting separately...

Mithridates Wars shouldn't be a problem I think, I did Raphia compositions as it was second in the poll, maybe we can open a new one to pick our next 2-3 battles...

[gamegeek2]

Magnesia was fun, so here's Raphia according to Polybios:

Ptolemaioi (roughly 75.000)

Ptolemaios Philopator (left)

Ptolemy's guard (general unit) - 1x Somatophylakes Strategou
40 african elephants - 2x Elephantes Liboukoi
700 cavalry of the guard - 1x Agema Klerouchon Hippeon (2 chevrons)
2.300 lybian and egyptian horses - 2x Machimoi Hippeis
3.000 royal agema - 3x Basilikon Agema
3.000 Lybians armed in the macedonian fashion - 3x Thureophoroi
3.000 Cretans - 3x Kretikoi Toxotai (1 chevron)
5.000 phalanx body - 5x Klerouchoi Phalangitai

Andromachos (center left)

20.000 phalanx body (general unit) - 15x Klerouchoi Phalangitai and 5x Pezhetairoi

Sosibios (center right)

20.000 egyptian phalanx (general unit) - 20x Machimoi Phalangitai

Echecrates (right)

2.000 greek mercenary cavalry (general unit) - 2x Lonchophoroi Hippeis (1 chevron)
8.000 greek mercenaries - 8x Hoplitai
4.000 Galatian settlers - 4x Galatikoi Klerouchoi
2.000 Thracians - 2x Thraikioi Peltastai (1 chevron)
2.000 peltasts - 2x Peltastai
33 african elephants - 2x Elephantes Liboukoi

Arche Seleukeia (roughly 68.000)

Antiochos (right)

4.000 royal cavalry (general unit) - 1x Somatophylakes Strategou and 4x Hetairoi
60 indian elephants - 3x Elephantes Indikoi
1.500 Cretans - 1x Kretikoi Toxotai
5.000 Medes, Cissians, Cadusii and Carmanians armed in the macedonian fashion - 5x Thureophoroi
5.000 greek mercenaries - 5x Hoplitai

Nicarchos (center right)

20.000 phalanx body - 15x Pantodapoi Phalangitai and 5x Klerouchoi Phalangitai

Theodotos (center left)

10.000 silver shields - 10x Argyraspides
10.000 Arabs - 5x Bnei Shevet 'Arabim and 5x Erínamesh ana-Arabim

Themison (left)

2.000 cavalry (general unit) - 2x Asabârân-î Mâdâën
42 indian elephants - 2x Elephantes Indikoi
500 lydian javelineers - 1x Akontistai
1.000 Cardaces - 1x Gund-î Paltâ
5.000 light-armed Dahae, Carmanians and Cilicians - 1x Kôfyârên-î Verkhânâ, 2x Tabargânê Êrânshahr and 2x Anatolikoi Phyletai
1.000 agrianian slingers - 1x Sphendonetai
1.000 persian bowmen - 1x Thanvarê Pârsig
2.000 Thracians - 2x Thraikioi Peltastai

This battle is a MASSIVE infantry clash, we are going to need 4v4, so people come hither!

PS: I gave chevrons to the units said to have received specific training prior to the campaign, if anyone spots the need for more to balance the battle, do tell :)

I've taken liberty to highlight a few errors or misinterpretations.

Dahae refers to the Dahae tribe, who fought mostly as light horse archers and cavalrymen. There are actually Dahae Riders and Dahae Skirmish cavalry in EB, but idk if they are available to the AS. The Carmanians were probably light horsemen as well.

Cardaces refer to Persian Hoplites. We have a unit called the Kardaka-e Arteshtar, the Persian Hoplites. Use those.

I would further give the Arabs a bit of experience, as Antiochos probably wasn't bringing a bunch of raw levy non-subject peoples to the battle, or at least I would give the Shevet a bit of experience.

[gamegeek2]

What about Arausio?

I would consider the Roman's reported numbers not too far off from the truth (much as the numbers at Cannae, the only battle that can compete with Arausio in terms of how badly the Romans were slaughtered): 120,000 Romans and ~200,000 Germans, Celts, Balts, and the like. This makes sense given that the majority of the Germanic armies will be composed of spear-armed warbands and levy spearmen, so the battle should be fairly balanced.

Our map would need to be a river map, with the river dividing the two armies.

[Arjos]

These consisted first of Daae, Carmanians, and Cilicians, light-armed troops about five thousand in number organized and commanded by Byttacus the Macedonian.

Aspasianus the Mede had under him a force of about five thousand Medes, Cissians, Cadusians, and Carmanians.

then the mercenaries from Greece and next these the five thousand armed in the Macedonian fashion under the command of Byttacus the Macedonian.

...next these the Cardacian and Lydian javelineers, then three thousand light-armed troops under Menedemus, after these the Cissians, Medes, and Carmanians, and finally, in contact with the phalanx, the Arabs and neighbouring tribes.

Yup, those passages confused me XD

Fixed, but about the Dahae and Carmanians lightly armed in the macedonian fashion, which unit would you take?
And the cardacian hoplites aren't in the AS roster, plus they are very far from the phalanx next to light troops and javelineers :S

[gamegeek2]

I will add the Cardacians, make the fear changes, and add the saka by the end of the week or at least I will try to.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Hellenistic factions can't recruit Kardakes in campaign and there is no mercenary model. I feel like their model conflicts with another and will cause crashes but I suppose its worth a shot.

Also, should we have separate edu's for standard and historical battles? We'd have to be giving some factions access to units we may not want them to get for gameplay's sake.

[Kival]

Which battle did you have in mind? It might make a good third entry after Raphia.

I was not thinking about a pecific battle, to be precise I don't know any battle but I think we could find one.

[The Celtic Viking]

When you (GG2? Robin? Whoever makes the historical EDU) adds the Cardakians you should also add the Thraikian Peltasts to the Ptolemaioi.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

As I feared, Kardakes crash the game when you try to load up a battle with your little grey peasants. No skin. We'll just have to be creative and use something else, maybe Babylonian Spearmen or even just Greek Hoplites?

[Arjos]

Fixed with Babylonians...