Being assaulted and robbed isn't very much fun at all

[Kadagar_AV]

Your point was, if I understood it correctly, is that the reason football fans are more violent than hockey fans in Sweden, since hockey fans are mostly ethnic Swedes while immigrants are more into football. That doesn't really make sense.



That's got more to do with the fact that you guys suck at football.

Bronze in WC '94, yey!! But yeah we suck. Not as bad as England, but we suck.

You understood my point correctly, more immigrants are into football, thus we have more problems around football than hockey games.

What doesnt make sense about that? please elaborate.

[HoreTore]

You understood my point correctly, more immigrants are into football, thus we have more problems around football than hockey games.

What doesnt make sense about that? please elaborate.

The simple fact that the hooligan firms who cause a stir at football matches also attend hockey matches.

Which you would have known, if you weren't ignorant on this issue.

[Kadagar_AV]

The simple fact that the hooligan firms who cause a stir at football matches also attend hockey matches.

Which you would have known, if you weren't ignorant on this issue.

HT, I'm honestly fed up discussing this with you here.

If it was the same hooligans, we would have as much problem in hockey as football, no? We don't.

REGARDLESS, immigrants ARE WAY OVERREPRESENTED WHEN IT COMES TO ASSAULTS AMONG OTHER CRIMES!!! Start talking about that and drop your absolutely ridiculous single example, that has nothing to do with OP, would you so please.

[Sarmatian]

Bronze in WC '94, yey!! But yeah we suck. Not as bad as England, but we suck.

You understood my point correctly, more immigrants are into football, thus we have more problems around football than hockey games.

What doesnt make sense about that? please elaborate.

I don't agree with HT here, I believe there's a difference between football fans and fans of most other sports. In England, most of the people who attend tennis matches are English and most of the people who attend football matches are also English. It's hard to explain different level of violence when ethnicity is the same.

Other sports lack the organized firms in general, and when they do have them, most of the time they're a continuation of a football firm.

So, Yugoslavians and other eastern Europeans, or darkies and Arabs, on the stands have little to do with that.

[HoreTore]

HT, I'm honestly fed up discussing this with you here.

This is how much I care about that:

If it was the same hooligans, we would have as much problem in hockey as football, no? We don't.

Nope, we do not. There are some occasional flares at hockey matches as well, but by and large they are peaceful.

That doesn't change the fact that it's the exact same persons we're talking about. If you want to know why they sit quietly at hockey matches while going bonkers at football matches, I suggest you ask them. As you have gone to "hundreds of hockey and football matches", you must know at least a couple of Ultras.

[Kadagar_AV]

This is how much I care about that:



Nope, we do not. There are some occasional flares at hockey matches as well, but by and large they are peaceful.

That doesn't change the fact that is the exact same persons we're talking about. If you want to know why they sit quietly at hockey matches while going bonkers at football matches, I suggest you ask them. As you have gone to "hundreds of hockey and football matches", you must know at least a couple of Ultras.

Kind of pathetic how you skipped the second part of my post, troll.

[HoreTore]

Kind of pathetic how you skipped the second part of my post, troll.

I'll deal with your other nonsense at a later time.

I prefer to deal with one ignorant argument at a time.

[Kadagar_AV]

I'll deal with your other nonsense at a later time.

I prefer to deal with one ignorant argument at a time.

So make a thread about football and hooliganism. It's not what we are discussing here.

I was attacked by arabs and blacks.

I complain that arabs and blacks are way more violent than ethnically Swedish persons, and I see it as a problem for Sweden at large.

You then bring up one incident with a unknown perpetrator to show... Something, and totally sidestep the question at hand.

You then refuse to discuss anything but that single incident with an unknown perpetrator, and you use it as "evidence".

That is known as trolling, and I have had enough of you.

EDIT: We have had our fights, but I always saw some respect or wink in the eye.

I get brutally attacked and humiliated, with damage that might well be irreparable. And you bring absolute trolling to the table?

Seriously, have had enough of you :flower: off

[HoreTore]

I don't give a rats arse about your attack. What I reacted to was your broad statement that Ethnic Sweden(tm) was an idyllic place of tranquility.

When you make such a claim, it is more than appropriate to bring up ethnic Swedes busy making Sweden into an idyllic place of Peace and Love. There are plenty of such exaples to choose from, but since hooliganism hit hard this weekend, that was the first thing to pop into my head.

That you are still too blinded by your racism to understand that football hooligans are almost all ethnic Swedes is laughable. That you believe you are competent enough to discuss hooliganism without even knowing an Ultra is hilarious.

Detached from reality. Nothing more than I would expect from a neo-nazi to-be.

[Kadagar_AV]

I don't give a rats arse about your attack. What I reacted to was your broad statement that Ethnic Sweden(tm) was an idyllic place of tranquility.

When you make such a claim, it is more than appropriate to bring up ethnic Swedes busy making Sweden into an idyllic place of Peace and Love. There are plenty of such exaples to choose from, but since hooliganism hit hard this weekend, that was the first thing to pop into my head.

That you are still too blinded by your racism to understand that football hooligans are almost all ethnic Swedes is laughable. That you believe you are competent enough to discuss hooliganism without even knowing an Ultra is hilarious.

Detached from reality. Nothing more than I would expect from a neo-nazi to-be.

Thank you for caring. Seriously, we have been on the same boards for close to 10 years, and that is what you bring to the table? Not very emphatic of you. Up till now I had a whole other view of you, misguided as it unfortunately was.

Sweden used to be more idyllic than it is, but of course every society always have its fair share of problems.

I know some ultras.

Again, :flower: off.

[HoreTore]

I know some ultras.

All yugoslavs, I suppose?

The amount of nonsense you have sprouted in this thread on this issue is staggering - from not knowing about the hockey/football mix, the belief that hooligan firms are made up of immigrants, to believing that casual firms don't do random violence - and so I find it extremely hard to believe that you have ever been a part of the culture.

[Kadagar_AV]

All yugoslavs, I suppose?

The amount of nonsense you have sprouted in this thread on this issue is staggering - from not knowing about the hockey/football mix, the belief that hooligan firms are made up of immigrants, to believing that casual firms don't do random violence - and so I find it extremely hard to believe that you have ever been a part of the culture.

Yeah, you still mistake Sweden for Norway.

The immigrants aint even disciplined enough to belong to a firm.

Sweden and Norways problems are not comparable, stop believing they are.

Also, :flower: off.

[Fragony]

Horrie I really like you, and I like liking you, but if you aren't willing to recognise that Kads is right you are a bit confused

[HoreTore]

Yeah, you still mistake Sweden for Norway.

The immigrants aint even disciplined enough to belong to a firm.

Sweden and Norways problems are not comparable, stop believing they are.

Also, :flower: off.

Sweden is seen as an example to aspire to among the Ultras in Norway, particularly AIK. I watched the Ultra culture grow in my time at the West Bank at Ullevål. I saw ISKO ruin our reputation and I saw Ikaros ruin our stands, with close cooperation with the Swedes. From that I do know what their Swedish role models are up to. You, however, quite obviously do not.

Here is a random example of a facebook group hailing Firman Boys. A grand total of 2 immigrant names, of which one is latino and the other sounds ex-soviet.

But I guess they're "culturally corrupted Swedes".... In other news, Scotland Yard has discovered that there is, in fact, not a single true Scotsman.

[Fragony]

Sweden is seen as an example to aspire to among the Ultras in Norway, particularly AIK. I watched the Ultra culture grow in my time at the West Bank at Ullevål, and from that I do know what their Swedish role models are up to. You, however, quite obviously do not.

Here is a random example of a facebook group hailing Firman Boys. A grand total of 2 immigrant names, of which one is latino and the other sounds ex-soviet.

But I guess they're "culturally corrupted Swedes".... In other news, Scotland Yard has discovered that there is, in fact, not a single true Scotsman.

Norway ain't Sweden, you are right in Norways case as there is certainly a hardcore right with all the bon-ton, and they sure are freaky, but that's kinda, well Norway

[Kadagar_AV]

Norway ain't Sweden, you are right in Norways case as there is certainly a hardcore right with all the bon-ton, and they sure are freaky, but that's kinda, well Norway

Can we please just ignore troll.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Wait, a single incident proves that Fragony was right all along? Is anecdotal evidence the new internet hipster thing?

Is it really that hard to see that white people and non-immigrants can be violent, too?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...azi-group.html

It just doesn't make the news as much apparently as scary immigrants sell more papers.

Actually, I was just poking fun at Frags, assuring him that we would find a way to lambast him regardless.

My more serious posts on the issue, see above, take a different tone. I think the race/culture label of itself is not relevant here. Immigration that creates a surfeit of urban poor begets this kind of thing. That was true when the immigrants were Turks in Germany, Libyans in Italy, Irish in Boston, or Japanese in the Hawaiian Islands. "Race," to the extent that that is a valuable discriminator at all, is not the point. If it had been a quintet of Connaught-born "trash" who'd felt oppressed by the Stodgy Lutherans of Sweden they might have targeted Kadagar in the same way.

The problems at hand are: controlling/deterring street crime and sensible immigration policy. Doesn't sound, from Kadagar's example (admittedly anecdotal in character -- but I am a qualitative researcher so I do not dismiss such) as though either is being well enough handled.

[HoreTore]

Norway ain't Sweden, you are right in Norways case as there is certainly a hardcore right with all the bon-ton, and they sure are freaky, but that's kinda, well Norway

The nazi groups are a lot larger in Sweden than they are in Norway. I still remember the hilarous nazi march in Trondheim a few years ago with half a dozen Norwegians marching with 50+ Swedish nazi who drove to Trondheim to help the Norwegians with their publicity stunt. Hilarious stuff, but only semi-related to hooliganism.

While football hooligans are way more likely to vote for far-right parties and a ton of nazi organizations have their roots in this culture, it's not entirely accurate to say that the hooligan firms are "hardcore right".

They are definitely almost entirely white, though.

[drone]

In other news, Scotland Yard has discovered that there is, in fact, not a single true Scotsman.

Scotland Yard is in London, they wouldn't know a true Scotsman if one glassed them in the face.

Sorry to hear about your hand, Kadagar, hope it gets better.

[Fragony]

Can we please just ignore troll.

Nah. I can kinda understand Horrie as in Norway there is actually something that can actually qualify as being facist, upper class, rich. Not idiotic flagwavers but a pretty powerfull network. But there is no such thing in Sweden, topic needs filter.

'Actually, I was just poking fun at Frags'

That's just mean

[HoreTore]

Nah. I can kinda understand Horrie as in Norway there is actually something that can actually qualify as being facist, upper class, rich. Not idiotic flagwavers but a pretty powerfull network. But there is no such thing in Sweden, topic needs filter.

I am not talking about neo-nazi's, though.

[Kadagar_AV]

Actually, I was just poking fun at Frags, assuring him that we would find a way to lambast him regardless.

My more serious posts on the issue, see above, take a different tone. I think the race/culture label of itself is not relevant here. Immigration that creates a surfeit of urban poor begets this kind of thing. That was true when the immigrants were Turks in Germany, Libyans in Italy, Irish in Boston, or Japanese in the Hawaiian Islands. "Race," to the extent that that is a valuable discriminator at all, is not the point. If it had been a quintet of Connaught-born "trash" who'd felt oppressed by the Stodgy Lutherans of Sweden they might have targeted Kadagar in the same way.

The problems at hand are: controlling/deterring street crime and sensible immigration policy. Doesn't sound, from Kadagar's example (admittedly anecdotal in character -- but I am a qualitative researcher so I do not dismiss such) as though either is being well enough handled.

In my perfect world, 10% of every nations population is immigrants, spread from all over the world.

That way cultural identities can be intact, different cultures can try different things, but still learn from each other.

So, that's how much "Nazi" I am.

Sweden however... *shivers*

Since I was born in 1980, 1/3 of new Swedes are no longer Swedes. That number accounts for nativity and immigration, and I count second generation immigrants as immigrants, but not third.

I was on a bus with my mother in one of the suburbs around Stockholm the other day. The buss was pretty full, and my mother was the only woman showing her hair.

Our immigration policy is EXTREME, and contrary to any other countries, we accept the immigrants others dont want.

The biggest political cry in Sweden is "EVERY HUMANS EQUAL WORTH", thus we accept the gypsys, the somalis, the afghans...

Nevermind they come to cheat us, nevermind they have no schooling, nevermind they look down on the society that feed them. They all have an equal worth.

I would LOVE to believe in "every humans equal worth", but when you start to talk about state finances and us accepting just so many an-alphabets, or how people fresh from a warzone just MAYBE have different needs, Sweden fail.

Heck, the latest dental-political-initiative completely failed to understand that people from Afghanistan might have other dental needs than a person raised with Swedish dental care.

I don't see myself as nazi, I would like to live in a society with other cultures. But heck, I want them other cultures to work in teh society I live in, and if they don't, I expect them to be on the backfoot. It's the same respect I give other cultures I dwell in.

[Kadagar_AV]

Scotland Yard is in London, they wouldn't know a true Scotsman if one glassed them in the face.

Sorry to hear about your hand, Kadagar, hope it gets better.

Thank you.

Scotland Yard has some history behind its name I believe.

It is also, most likely run by people more culturally close to Scots than, say, Somalis or Gypsys.

So the "True Scotsman" fallacy fails here.

I never said Swedes can't be a problem, I just wondered why we mass-import known problems.

[Fragony]

I am not talking about neo-nazi's, though.

Neither would I call them that, they have never not been nazi's, same crowd. But that's pretty exclusive to Norway really. You aren't really doing yourself a favour if you link that with populist ideas which come from genuine concerns. There are problems, they need to be discussed.

[HoreTore]

I never said Swedes can't be a problem, I just wondered why we mass-import known problems.

Funnily enough, your first response to an example of Swedes acting like monkeys is "must be immigrants".

When you add in how you refer to other people as "sub-standard", constant use of slurs, etc, something doesn't quite add up.

[HoreTore]

Neither would I call them that, they have never not been nazi's, same crowd. But that's pretty exclusive to Norway really. You aren't really doing yourself a favour if you link that with populist ideas which come from genuine concerns. There are problems, they need to be discussed.

Husar was the one who linked some nazi's, Frags.

I've been talking about hooliganism, not about anti-immigration ideologies.

[Fragony]

Husar was the one who linked some nazi's, Frags.

I've been talking about hooliganism, not about anti-immigration ideologies.

You talk about hooligans because you insist on relevating very real issues, yeah hooligans are a problem as well, granted. Isn't it a bit cruel to always be wanting to just dismiss things?

[Kadagar_AV]

Funnily enough, your first response to an example of Swedes acting like monkeys is "must be immigrants".

When you add in how you refer to other people as "sub-standard", constant use of slurs, etc, something doesn't quite add up.

No, I said the perp is unknown, and that it might well have been an immigrant. I then explained the difference between Norwegian and Swedish supporter culture. Go back and re-read.

I also have asked you gently and then forcefully and now UTTERLY clearly, please :flower: off.

You as a person have lost my respect completely. There is a time and a place for everything, and I had already earlier in the thread clearly stated that I'm in a vulnerable state.

We shared boards for 9 years HT, and "I don't give a rats ass" is what you bring to my incident.


NOTE to other forum members: Yes, I am vulnerable right now. Not so vulnerable that I can't take an honest or logical argument, but if you want to show your detest for me, please save it for a later date.

[Kadagar_AV]

Don't feed the troll

[HoreTore]

No, I said the perp is unknown, and that it might well have been an immigrant.

The guy was identified as a casual, and so the odds of it being an immigrant is very close to zero. Add in the fact that it was a group of three, and it's completely unlikely that all three were immigrants.

I then explained the difference between Norwegian and Swedish supporter culture. Go back and re-read.

....And it was this explanation which showed you haven't the faintest idea of what you're talking about.

There is a time and a place for everything

If you want a sympathy thread, stick to that. If you make nazi-light comments, expect to be called on it.