Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
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If I werent playing games Id be killing small animals at a higher rate than I am now - SFTS
Si je n'étais pas jouer à des jeux que je serais mort de petits animaux à un taux plus élevé que je suis maintenant - Louis VI The Fat
"Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 06-18-2014 at 00:38.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
There is legitimacy in this history lesson; "maybe the past should have been done differently". If this is an attempt to steer discussion towards a more cautious and skeptical decision making process, then it is a good thing. If it is little more than an "I told you so", then you should start living in the present and be ashamed of yourselves.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
I supported the war irrespective of WMD's in 2003 (I think that I was 19). The overarching theory was that it would overthrow a dictator and lead to a collapse of other proximate/related dictatorships (we would use it as an example and radiating center of destabilization). I was not naive enough to believe that it would be a cakewalk, and in reviewing the US casualty rate and time in occupation could have been viewed as a success in relation to many other modern invasions (up until now). I was hoping for a resolution in between Japan/Germany on the one end and Vietnam on the other. A Korea of sorts at the very least? This result would be a disaster that added insult to injury.
Leave aside that technological and economic evolution may be more responsible for the regime collapses, I personally believe in war to solve problems and that mankind is made for it, but I am not dumb enough to believe that it can't cause more terrible problems. Our rebuilding efforts have been insufficient compared with our military capability. We need to work on this in future invasions/police actions. We shouldn't doubt though, that some events require military action, even if there are some crazy people like me who believe that this is the case more often than probably appropriate.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 06-18-2014 at 01:49.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
I disagree. While in hindsight I would not have supported the invasion of Iraq, I would have still supported the invasion of Afghanistan and would have most certainly supported a relatively large scale involvement in Syria, given the USE of weapons of mass destruction and the likelihood of outcome absent involvement being overwhelmingly unfavorable (evidence present in Northwestern Iraq & Syria).
I've learned lessons, but not the same ones as you it seems. Arming the most rationale actors with the biggest upside is more in our interest than allowing the least rational to run rampant and be armed by our enemies and fairweather friends.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 06-18-2014 at 01:44.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
By that standard, what do I know about my own country. If I don't know about these countries, I can't imagine who does.
NATO and the EU took the moderate approach with Russia and ceded the Black Sea. Dumb and they will regret it. We all understand people everywhere better than we think.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 06-18-2014 at 01:53.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Nonsense. Shia arabs were killed under Saddam along with Sunni Kurds. Iraq fought a war over these things with Iran. Baathist politics in Syria and Iraq were well explored and the subordinate Shiite population was one of the major lures to an American invasion due to their natural mistrust of their government. Just because you weren't aware of it when you were 14 doesn't mean our national security advisors were oblivious. Or me, for that matter. Say that I was wrong, but don't make the mistake of thinking I don't know the area better than most. My FSO exam score would beat a number of mid to high level State Department employees.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 06-18-2014 at 02:03.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
How was it wrong? Arab Sunni's were our major problem aside from some short lived resistance, according to my recollection.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 06-18-2014 at 02:08.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
And for the only time during the occupation gave us the ratio of garrison to insurgent necessary to actually suppress an insurgency. Neat gadgets and satellites do not substitute well for people on a comparatively low-tech mission. Just as our HUMINT going into Iraq was....less than ideal [other terms have and will be applied].
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
I think that the breakdown is something like 65% Shi'a Arab, 15% Sunni Arab. Working with Shi'ites was greatly successful, although it opened Iraq up to excessive Iranian influence. It is arguable that a similarly weak-kneed "war is never the answer" mentality caused them to believe that this threat was not existential. It allowed people who realize that war is a very powerful answer to gain an upper hand.
Either way, I operate off of a basic understanding that anyone arguing over foreign policy in the Middle-East has a functional understanding of Middle-Eastern issues and history until proven otherwise by more than incorrect opinions.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 06-18-2014 at 02:22.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 06-18-2014 at 02:34.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 06-18-2014 at 02:31.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
The point is that most soldiers, today and historically, know/knew combat, or some amount of the logistics involved in war. They know some of the effects of war on individuals in the field firsthand. They don't understand why they are at war or what the objectives are or the geographic/demographic/economic/diplomatic/etc. Most understand some elements of war better than the majority, but war is bigger than anecdotal experience, no matter how traumatising and/or heroic it may have been.
This is not a particularly controversial opinion, is it?.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 06-18-2014 at 04:18.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Hey, look at this cool video I've found.
http://Using Technology to Map Confl...be/9X6GqEAph2E can anybody find more like it?
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Last edited by a completely inoffensive name; 06-18-2014 at 10:52.
Even with the benefit of hindsight, I'm not sure how following the hawkish calls to intervene in Syria could have helped what's now going on in Iraq. The calls were to intervene in Syria against Assad. While the current lot in Iraq have links to groups in Syria, they're linked to those who are fighting against Assad. If we'd intervened as the hawks wanted us to, we'd only have weakened the main opponent of the Islamists, giving much more scope to expand in Syria as well as in Iraq. Right now, by declining to act against Assad, we've at least left a strong man in place who's opposed to those we're now being alarmed about. If we were to have intervened in Syria, we'd only have helped things currently in Iraq if we'd intervened on the side of Assad, then teamed up with the now pacified Syria and Iran for a 3 way crack down on Islamists in Iraq. But that's not what the hawks were advocating though.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 06-18-2014 at 12:00.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Using Assad to target ISIL and al-qaeda affiliates while we arm the former FSA units and Kurds so that they can undermine Assad where his forces are most vulnerable. Intel gathering, precision strikes with aircraft, as well as surgical assaults using various special forces.
We need too encourage relatively Just and effective governance in as many defensible areas as possible, even though it will be difficult. We can do it, but it takes lives, money and energy.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 06-18-2014 at 13:53.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
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