Has anyone been to totalwar.com recently

[BeeSting]

Had CA seriously expressed any concerns for RTW bugs, would we have had the kind of negativities on the console thread? Instead, the impression I get is that they continue to play us down with no sign of any concerns over bugs that plague this game.

[BeeSting]

So should we beg, or better yet, play it off as nothing is wrong so we could please the demigods of CA enough to have them release another patch, for free?

[SpencerH]

Has another of my posts disappeared? It included a witty analogy about monkeys throwing fruit at a smiling man in a suit. If anyone sees it maybe they could let me know where it is. That way I'll know that I dont have to book myself in to the 'happy house' for some rest.

The disappearance before this one (if it happened) was in the particular thread referenced by Kraxis above (definitely a good read). I know that Kukrikhan made that one disappear so I'm not worried about early-onset alzheimers with that one. Its a pity that my pithy remarks were missed though. As with Old Celt, I too have problems with condescending comments made by a certain CA employee. The fact that they were in response to the rabid ravings of disgruntled youth is irrelevant. Either you have a forum for discussion (good and bad) or you dont.

PS I'm saving this one so that I dont become confused as to whether I indeed wrote it (in case it too vanishes).

[Pode]

I am so bloody tired of hearing about how it's impossible to have release software that's bug free. I work in unmanned aircraft design. The budget for a lot of my projects is comparable to the development budget for a medium game, let alone the blockbuster everyone expected RTW to be, and I have to include the hardware design and fab cost too. Over two decades, yeah, we've lost our share of prototype birds to software glitches, mistakes happen. But you bet your ass by the time it leaves my shop it damn well works like a charm for 5 or 6 times the design life of the airframe without a software crash. Manned aviation has been writing 100% bug free software using V&V autocoders for 20 years. Fly by wire doesn't mean the pilot pulls on a bunch of strings, you know.
But the stakes are different, games don't kill people if they mess up. Fine, but the dollar cost is far from trivial and that can get you fired just as fast. More important, it's not like bug free gaming doesn't happen. When was the last time you got a patch for your console game? Oh, yeah, they can't patch them, so they have to . . . drum roll . . . get it right the first time. Don't tell me it can't be done.

[tai4ji2x]

well, consoles are standardized equipment, so they don't also have to test for driver/hardware incompatibilities, etc. i bet a lot of the time for testing goes to compatibility issues alone.

i have no problem with slightly or even very buggy game software - as long as there is a commitment to support it afterwards, which CA seems unwilling/unable to do for whatever reasons, legitimate or not.

[Aetius the Last Roman]

When was the last time you got a patch for your console game? Oh, yeah, they can't patch them, so they have to . . . drum roll . . . get it right the first time. Don't tell me it can't be done.

Hail to Pode,
great point.

[Browning]

You know, I understand the idea that developers should produce games free of bugs and patch any that are buggy no matter what... But seriously, unless you've not bought any games in the past couple years, do you actually expect that to happen?

You know, I happen to have bought some games with real support. Europa Universalis II being a good example of a cooperation between the devs and the players.

You can compare it to a car that won't run, but the fact is that the standards the car industry holds itself to and the standards that the game industry holds itself to are very, very different beasts.

Now whose fault is this?

[HarunTaiwan]

The lesson to me is this:

WAIT THREE MONTHS AFTER IT'S RELEASED BEFORE PURCHASE.

Hey, if we all did this the beancounters might get the message.

[Browning]

Just look at the bottom of the page 5 of the Loadgame-bug in the .com. It is terrifying.

http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...rt=81&stop=100

[player1]

The thing is that strategy games are usually type of game that are more prone to bugs, or in which bugs are bigger showstoppers (then some texture collion in FPS).

There are so many formualas involved in the game, as well as in AI routine.


Now the problem with RtW is publisher, since they fund the patches.

Usually, in gaming industry things work like this:

If game is bad, give very few patches (if any). Why lose even more money on failure.

If game is good give more patches. It's worth fixing some bugs, and will help if we ever want to relase sequel.

If game is very good give expansions and more and more patches. Great games have big fan base. Only fans buy expansions, not casual gamers. Fans are usually more touchy on bugs then casual players. Bugs fixed in patches will carry out for expansion too, so you effectively already work for expansion when fixing the bugs for original.

Unfortunatly, that's the thing that Activision doesn't understand.

In contrast, you could look at Neverwinter Nights or Civilization 3, that got lots of expansions and patches. They are funded by Atari (foremely known as Infogrames).

Of course, in case of games that flopped, Atari is ruthless too. Look at Temple of Elemental Evil or Master of Orion 3. Still, even Atari doesn't realize that some games floped because of bugs, and if fixed would be successful. But, that's for another discussion.


Anyway, Rome: Total War is successful game, and as such, should deserve patching, both from gamer and commercial view.

[RJV]

@Old Celt,

Re your 'pompous arrogance' statement. Don't you think you're going a tad over the top here? Can you not take the comment in the spirit in which it was undoubtedly intended, ie a joke? GJS has consistently posted here (when he doesn't have to) to add bits of info when useful and when allowed (and I seem to remeber an occasion where he wasn't allowed but posted anyway).

Any road up, my point being 'lighten up a little'. Don't go off in a tantrum about pompous arrogance - this is the internet, people post comments and people all interpret those comments differently. From your other posts it's obvious you're old enough and ugly enough (joke) to a) see through the bs, and b) take things with a pinch of salt.

Cheers,

Rob

[Old Celt]

I did ask if the "pompous arrogant" remarks were taken out of a different context. And some of you have shown me that they were...However, that still doesn't make it acceptable to speak to your customers in that way, even if those customers are being totally unreasonable.

I remember sitting in a room with 18 other developers for a multi million dollar project and the customer, who was extremely unreasonable. This customer targeted the lead developer and went into a screaming tirade which included a fusilade of the most vile language you could ever imagine. This went on for nearly an hour and I really thought the guy was going to stroke out. Finally he was exhausted, and no one from our team had gotten a chance to speak. He said, "Well, I want to know what you have to say!" We were all furious. Our lead dev looked at him, and smiled like an angel and said very softly: "I am taking my team to lunch now, and we will discuss a response to your concerns." That was the most fantastic display of customer service I've ever seen. Despite incredible, unfair, vile heaping abuse, this dev kept his head on straight and remembered that the customer is king. The customer is always right.

Now, if other devs can stand the heat, CA's devs can too. If I can do a better job finding and zapping bugs, I feel fully justified to demand that level of service from other professionals. Yes I am a bit passionate about this subject, but I strive to be fair in how I analyze. As I said, in the beginning, I was defending CA, believing they would do the right thing because they know what is proper. My comments are not in reference to the console game in any way. I'm strictly speaking about the status of RTW and patch policy.

I just want the same respect from CA and attention to problems, that I give my software customers every day. Is that really asking too much?

[Ulfang]

Hail to Pode,
great point.

Lets not forget that Console's aren't exactly brimming with Strategy games which are generally the sort of games you are needing patches for. Since when do you get a patch for an arcade game? lol.

I'm not happy about this Sega takeover and it does look like its a move aimed at making Console strategy games with ooo arrr great combo moves ... bam .. splat... I'm Spartan Totally Kick ass Awsome Warrior Dude!
I find this very worrying. Admittedly its a bit early to comment as we haven't seen anything of the game yet other than the blurb but the sound of it depresses me! Sounds very much like Kingdom Under Fire Crusaders! Fast Action, nice graphics and hack n slash battles. To me this is totally the opposite to what the Total War series was made for! Its a Wargame not a mix of Arcade Action and Strategy! Infact i'm off to .com now to moan lol

At least we still have the org :)

[Calmarac]

Good story there Old Celt. I`ve seen you defending CA here from time to time and it`s a sign to CA that things have gone badly wrong when even a determined optimist such as yourself has finally run out of hope.

@ steve - yes we know about the knitpickers you find in every game forum. However, we`re concerned here with major game-breaking bugs still being present after 6 months and two official patches, with no sign of another or any word AT ALL from the developers.

@ Browning - that was me at the bottom of page 5 in the Loadgame bug thread. I`d contacted Activision support on the advice of another poster. I reported the bug and said I`d contacted them as there had been no word at all on the Official Forum. Activision just referred me back to the Official Forum. Then the later email saying "problem SOLVED" - as I`d not continued to barrage them with emails...

I`m beginning to wonder if there`ll even be an expansion now, let alone another patch. Expansions often sell to the old core fanbase, many of whom have now given up on this game, series and developer.

Such a sad way for it to fizzle out. I`ve loved this series since STW - even still have the original MB boardgame Shogun which started it all.

Repeating myself from `over there`

In complete contrast - my preorder of Silent Hunter 3 arrived on Wednesday. It had teething trouble bugs as we`d expect of any game nowadays. They posted the first patch for it, fixing a dozen or so buglets, yesterday!! I think it hits the shops tomorrow. Oh, and they`d held up release for six months to add a dynamic campaign specifically as it had been demanded by the fanbase. It`s called customer care CA, in case you`ve forgotten.

And guess what - it`s technically and historically accurate, has a decent working AI, a proper dynamic campaign - and it remembers what it was doing between saves.

And this a first game from a Romanian comany who love what they do and communicate properly with their market, especially by listening and acting on what they hear.

[hrvojej]

... and it remembers what it was doing between saves.

You've gotta be kiddin'...

[Zatoichi]

Has another of my posts disappeared? It included a witty analogy about monkeys throwing fruit at a smiling man in a suit. If anyone sees it maybe they could let me know where it is. That way I'll know that I dont have to book myself in to the 'happy house' for some rest.

The disappearance before this one (if it happened) was in the particular thread referenced by Kraxis above (definitely a good read). I know that Kukrikhan made that one disappear so I'm not worried about early-onset alzheimers with that one. Its a pity that my pithy remarks were missed though. As with Old Celt, I too have problems with condescending comments made by a certain CA employee. The fact that they were in response to the rabid ravings of disgruntled youth is irrelevant. Either you have a forum for discussion (good and bad) or you dont.

PS I'm saving this one so that I dont become confused as to whether I indeed wrote it (in case it too vanishes).

Ha ha. Yes, you posted the monkey thing in a thread I started about Sega taking over CA (it dropped off the radar when it approached 3 pages). Oh well. Can I just say I like reading all this venting? Does that make me a bad person? Even if I can't agree with everyones' interesting and informed opinions, it's still jolly good fun.

For the sake of your sanity SpencerH, here's a link to that thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=44665

[Intrepid Sidekick]

Will there be an expansion?

Why wouldnt there be one?
Dont expect me to tell you what it is though.

Will we continue making "Total War" games?

Of course.
Why would we be so stupid as to knock a good thing on the head?
As above, don't expect me to tell you what the next version will be.
Just take it from us that it will be great and it will knock any competition in to a hat.

Do we care about the quality of our games?

Yes. Deeply.
I can't think of any other reason for the amount of time and work we put in to producing our games.
We would all rather make great games than work in a dull 9-5 office or produce "run of the mill clones".
I, as do many here, smile ruefully when certain people suggest we don't care or that monkey typists could do better. Perhaps this comes about from a misunderstanding of just how many and how complex the mechanisms we put in place are, to get the game to a playable state, let alone the polished state we like to aim for.
As we live in a real world, we have to deal with some limitations in terms of money and manpower and thus also in terms of time. The result is that we can miss stuff or get it wrong And for this we are very sorry.

So before you put the boot in any more, pause, take a breath, and think about it.
How many strategy/battle games with a 3D camapign map, thousands of 3d troops on 3D battlefields are there out there, that allow you to play the Roman Empire?
And how many of those are better than RTW?

Dont worry. We wont rest on our laurels. And keep the faith.

Yours sincerely

Intrepid Sidekick
C.A Staff

[AussieGiant]

Thanks for the input Sidekick.

I do read between your lines though and it says no patch but an expansion before Xmas this year.

Again thanks for taking the time to jump in.

[Browning]

And for this (deficiences of the code - Browning) we are very sorry

Dont worry. We wont rest on our laurels. And keep the faith.

Yours sincerely

Intrepid Sidekick
C.A Staff

I daresay this is the answer we were waiting for. Thank you very much.

[Captain Fishpants]

Sidekick was far nicer than I intended. I apologise for that.

[AussieGiant]

Sidekick was far nicer than I intended. I apologise for that.

Sidekick...Fishpants....hell you guys are coming out of the wood work all over the place at the moment.

Keep up the good work fellas

[Darius]

I can sum up how the .com and the .org are different real quick for you people.

.org

The org is an open discussion forum in which you are free to speak of anything to do with the totalwar game series. So long as you restrain yourself from using profanity, rudeness, personal attacks, and/or sheer idiocy as a way of communication, you will be fine.

.com

The com is an open discussion forum (unless it's about how totalwar has bugs or is against totalwar) in which you are free to speak of anything to do with the total war game series. So long as you restrain yourself from using profanity, rudeness, personal attacks, and/or sheer idiocy (only the moderator killemall is allowed to monopolize on idiocy) as a way of communication (unless the mods decide to randomly close it should they suspect you are a foreign agent sent to undermine their great works), you should be fine (until you are banned for posting a bug report).

[BeeSting]

What about fixing the problems for RTW? Are we to only hope for a better product in your next release of TW series? You have yet to address the many plaguing issues with your current product.

[Old Celt]

Thanks for the replies, CA guys.

I want to say that though my criticism of the patch situation is harsh, RTW still remains the best military game I've ever played, and it is my favorite. I will eagerly await the expansion, and buy it regardless of the open bug issues.

I stand by my statements about quality and how I think customers should be treated. Having said that, I do understand that sometimes, management policy just won't allow you to do the right thing you so desperately wish to do. I have left some jobs because of this kind of conflict between what you know is right, and what managers will allow.

Rome Total War is a terrific game. You at CA deserve all the kudos you received, the GOTY status, and the good sales that accompany all that. I'm sure many here on this forum can recall high praise I've given for a job well done in the game concept, design, and particularly the implementation of the morale system which I think is groundbreaking.

I don't wish to "put the boot in" any further. It is painful for me to be critical of other developers, because I know how such criticism can feel when it's directed at me. Please believe me, CA, you have plenty of respect for your capabilities, this matter of bug fixes relates much more to management policy IMHO.

It may be to everyone's best interest if an official communication could be made from CA or Sega to clear up the matter of whether any action will be taken officially to fix the save load bug between now and the presumed expansion. To my thinking, only the save/load bug is a critical problem. Simple mods fix most other bugs that are of any consequence, and most of us could probably accept that.

Again, I wish to thank the CA staff who have responded, and sincerely hope the lines of communication will remain open. None of us would be posting here if we didn't have a deep interest in the game.

[BeeSting]

Gods have descended from mount Olympus and boy did we all become so humble and meek all of a sudden.

We're not worthy! We're not worthy!

[SpencerH]

For the sake of your sanity SpencerH, here's a link to that thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=44665

Thanks for that. At my age its easy to lose track of whats where, especially since these threads have been mixing topics between between the Sega buyout of CA (I'm hopefully positive), Spartan TW (I'm looking forward to more info), and the RTW bug problem (I'm thoroughly pissed off). Sometimes its hard for other readers to know just where anyone stands on these issues so flame wars arise over misunderstandings. We may need little icons to identify what we do and dont support.

[SpencerH]

So before you put the boot in any more, pause, take a breath, and think about it.

Sorry, I cant resist. I usually avoid (physical) confrontations, but once they start my training (and experience) tells me to finish it.

How many strategy/battle games with a 3D camapign map, thousands of 3d troops on 3D battlefields are there out there, that allow you to play the Roman Empire?
And how many of those are better than RTW?

How many such games am I playing?

0.

The serious bugs need to be fixed.

[BeeSting]

Here's my little icon per RTW bugs and most importantly its incompetent AI:

But in regards to graphics, the epic scope, and the first of its kind battle engine…. most appropriately:

[nokhor]

in defense of GilJay, he can say any 'pompous arrogant' thing he wants as long as it's within the guidelines of the org. why should a patron be limited in what he wants to say just because he works for CA? the org is supposed to be neutral ground. it wasn't created by or funded by CA and i don't see why CA employees should have to be on their best behavior here when others are rude towards them. any CA employee has the right to criticize gamers here, any gamer has the right to criticize about CA employees here, and any gamer has the right to criticize gamers that criticize CA employees here. as long as it all follows the guidelines of the org. freedom of speech. all that being said, i still believe that RTW is a mediocre game, i think CA has jumped the shark and i believe that any future games they make will be less and less entertaining for me. but that is just my opinion.

[Quietus]

So, are you CA guys refuting patch 1.3? (since you didn't mention it at all and you had all the opportunity to do so). Any quick-fix or patch?

Also, since you're not being specific, CA is doing:

1) an RTW expansion pack
2) a new TW game (same engine).
3) of course, a top secret new game in a brand new engine(???)(that will take years to finish).

Finally, in case you've already forgotten, the Expansion Pack Wishlist thread.