Israeli evacuations from the Gaza Strip

[Steppe Merc]

I don't know any articale about this that I can find on the internet, but I've been reading about it in the newspapers.
Basically, Isrealis are being forcibly evacuated from lands by the Isreali government to appease the Palestinians (I think...). Many are resiting, or refusing to believe that it will really happen (or did happen, the articales were a few days old).

I'm not sure how to feel about this. I have a lot of problems with the Isreali government. But is it fair to the common people to be evacuated from their homes for peace? Isn't it sort of the same thing that the Isrealis did to the Palestinians in the first place? I don't know. Peace is obviously a very good goal, but will it help? And is forcible relocation justified?

Oh, and a side question. Is Isreal a theoracracy? I think that almost all Isrealis are Jewish. But the leaders obviously aren't Orthodox Jews... Are there any none Jewish Isrealis? Just something that I've never been able to find out...

And any real articales would be helpful in making sense of my ramblings.

[Papewaio]

It is a democracy.

There are a minority of Arab Israelis.

The land that the (mostly ultra right wing Jews) are being removed from are contested land. It is a complex issue, but it boils down to an attempt at peaceful resolution which the monoculture supporters on both sides are trying to derail.

[Proletariat]

In order to get some peace and quiet over there one day, somebody's gonna get kicked out of somewhere they live.

Aren't the settlers all getting tons of cash (which is basically from the US) in order to move? I'm usually on the Israeli's side on this stuff, but they can just shut up about this, imho.

[sharrukin]

The arabs are not willing to live with a Jewish minority in their midst while the Isreali's are.

[PanzerJaeger]

Another victory for the Jew hating arabs.

Every year Israel grows smaller and smaller in an attempt to appease the arabs.. and it never does.

The arab terrorists have been telling their people they are going to kick out the Jews, and now they have a victory.

[bmolsson]

I don't think that Israel is getting smaller.

My view on this is simple. If you are going to have settlers, don't use jewish fundamentalists. My take on the whole problem is that Israel should annex all the occupied areas, integrate the palestinians and grant them Israeli citizenship. Terrorist should be arrested and prosecuted as any domestic criminal. If a period of special status is required, fine, but it's better to get it over with. A independent Palestine is to late to solve the problems.

[Divinus Arma]

I'm for an independant Palestine. I think the whole world is just sick of the the conflict already.

Conflicts are like throwing rocks in the water. The problme with Israel is that it is like throwing a boulder in the water all the time. Enough already. The ripples and splash affeect everyone. Like a fat guy.

yyyaargh

[Tribesman]

Aren't the settlers all getting tons of cash (which is basically from the US) in order to move?
Yes , and in many cases they got tons of cash to move into the illegal settlements in the first place .

[Lazul]

how about the rest of the world cut those two countrys of from the rest of the world untill there is peace.
Im so bloody sick of their medieval mentality and racist thinking. (Both sides)
Isolate the area and cut of their borders so they, they dont deserve better.

[Al Khalifah]

Another victory for the Jew hating arabs.

Every year Israel grows smaller and smaller in an attempt to appease the arabs.. and it never does.

Another injustice against the Jewish people.

Look at what is going on in plain terms: Jewish people are being evicted from their homes and being told they have to live in the Jewish region of the country in order to create living space for another people - the argument being that the Jews shouldn't be there in the first place.
What does this remind you of....

The whole exercise is futile anyway, since Hamas has said it will not end its campaign of terror until Israel is destroyed and the PLA has even stated that it will not be satisfied until Jerusalem has also been returned, which is something that the Israelis will not do. So this minority of people have been abused to appease a pointless whim of the uninformed majority. The Israeli government has been forced by international pressure to sell out its own people in order to appease the terrorists.

[Templar Knight]

Did you see the guy who was going to throw his baby out the window because he didn't want to leave 'the promised land'?

[Adrian II]

I don't know any articale about this that I can find on the internet, but I've been reading about it in the newspapers.

The Web is awash with articles, blogs and reports about the matter. I can't be bothered with 'your site is biased' games so I'll just give you a piece of my mind, knowing that you, Steppe Merc, will make up your own mind anyway.

I have always been of the opinion that those settlers should get the hell out of there, no matter what Tel Aviv, the U.S. or the Palestinian side have to say on the matter. They are just one more sore on the face of the Middle East. A good deal of them are Americans anyway, some don' t even speak Hebrew, others are kids who 'settle' at the expense of Daddy's credit card. I saw some images of their deportation on the news yesterday that merely confirmed what I knew and believed all along; mostly young hotheads and halfbrains shouting 'Gestapo!' and crying for their Mommies and Daddies when they were carried off by soldiers. Get a life, guys, preferably elsewhere than in Israel.

[Idaho]

Another victory for the Jew hating arabs.

Every year Israel grows smaller and smaller in an attempt to appease the arabs.. and it never does.

The arab terrorists have been telling their people they are going to kick out the Jews, and now they have a victory.

What unmittigated tosh from start to finish. Your willful ignorance on this matter is beneath contempt.

How is Israel getting smaller? Gaza isn't even in Israel. Unless of course you subscribe to the concept of Greater Israel.

Let's look at the facts.

Gaza - 2 million Palestinians, 4,000 militant settlers. Settlers given free access to roads, freedom of movement, protection from the army. Given land which Palestinians were forciably cleared off. Israeli army shuts down main road through Gaza at will frequently. Palestinians subject to checkpoints (also routinely closed).

Compensation for Palestinians cleared off land - $0
Compensation for Israelis cleared off Palestinians land $140,000 a pop (plus more)

[Grey_Fox]

Yes , and in many cases they got tons of cash to move into the illegal settlements in the first place .

How was the Israeli occupation and colonisation of the Gaza strip illegal when the area was conquered in the Six-Day War. One must remember that Israel initiated hostilities because it's 'peaceful' neighbours were about to invade.

The methods the Israeli's used once there are not exactly benevolent, but the occupation is not illegal, else you could claim that the United States has been illegally occupied and should be returned to the native tribes that lived there (as well as any other conquest).

[Proletariat]

Can anyone say if this is actually garnering any goodwill from the Palestinians?

I can't tell from listening to the BBC interviews on the subject this morning, and if this is only appeasing the UN, it's pretty useless.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Hamas claims victory. They say it cost 1000 Israeli lives in the latest Indifatah to take back Gazza and it may take another 100000 to take back all of Israel. This is an example of Palestinian bigotry. Once more how is that over a million arabs can live in Israel but no Jews may live in Palestine?

[Ronin]

Hamas claims victory. They say it cost 1000 Israeli lives in the latest Indifatah to take back Gazza and it may take another 100000 to take back all of Israel. This is an example of Palestinian bigotry. Once more how is that over a million arabs can live in Israel but no Jews may live in Palestine?

there is a diference between living on a territory and imposing military checkpoints and other controls on the population of said territory....even if i don´t think the war mongers on the palestinian side will put the point so lightly.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

there is a diference between living on a territory and imposing military checkpoints and other controls on the population of said territory....even if i don´t think the war mongers on the palestinian side will put the point so lightly.

The land was turned over to the Palestinians was is not? They could remove the checkpoints. The point is that Jews are not allowed to live in Palestine checkpoints or not. In fact they were going to and still might bulldoze these whole settlements as the Palestinans dont even want things built by Jews on their land. IT should be up to the settlers whether they want to move or not.

[Idaho]

Hamas claims victory. They say it cost 1000 Israeli lives in the latest Indifatah to take back Gazza and it may take another 100000 to take back all of Israel. This is an example of Palestinian bigotry. Once more how is that over a million arabs can live in Israel but no Jews may live in Palestine?

Who cares who claims victory? What does it matter? Just get on with the business of justice and peace.

If I help an old lady across the road and Al Qaida declare it a victory for the noble jihad - then that doesn't mean I shouldn't have helped the old lady. Such thinking is regressive and is the kind of zero sum nonsense that typifies the ME problem.

And as for the million arabs living in Israel - there are frequent political moves to have them deported and they are second class citizens in Israel - with poorer schools, poorer areas, etc.

[Proletariat]

If I help an old lady across the road and Al Qaida declare it a victory for the noble jihad - then that doesn't mean I shouldn't have helped the old lady. Such thinking is regressive and is the kind of zero sum nonsense that typifies the ME problem.

You know that isn't analgous, Idaho.

What is the point of making a concession for the aim of peace if your opponent is claiming it's their own terrorist actions that brought it about? Doesn't it seem like it's just encouraging more terrorism?

I'm all for the settlers moving out if it's actually going to make progress. If it's just encouraging the Palestinian 'only the Intifadah gets results' mentality, then what will this solve?

It seems the only people who are appreciating this move by the Israelis are the Western governments involved in the process.

[Al Khalifah]

A good deal of them are Americans anyway, some don' t even speak Hebrew, others are kids who 'settle' at the expense of Daddy's credit card.

So we must dislike them because they are rich? Is it morally acceptable to turf someone out of their home just because they or their parents are rich?

This is a completely token jesture that appeases no one. The Israeli street is unhappy because their country has lost land. The settlers are unhappy because they have lost their homes. Hamas are unhappy because they have sworn not to rest until the nation of Israel is no more. The PLA is unhappy because they still want a return to pre-Six Day war borders. The only people really happy about this are the U.N, because it makes them feel that they have done their little bit towards ensuring peace in the Middle East.

Hamas will now smell victory may be at hand. They will keep comitting attrocities and performing acts of violence while they think they will be rewarded for their disobedience. What happens when they demand something that cannot be given? Whatever happened to no negotiations with the terrorists?

In fact they were going to and still might bulldoze these whole settlements as the Palestinans dont even want things built by Jews on their land.

They have demanded that the homes be demolished, but that the greenhouses remain.

[Kommodus]

Without getting into the debate about whether forcing the Isreali citizens out of the Gaza Strip was a good idea or not, I will say this: those being evacuated should accept it peacefully, find a new place to live, and get on with their lives. I've seen that many of them are fighting tooth-and-nail to stay, and I simply don't see a point to it. Yes, their lives are being disrupted, but many other people in the world suffer far greater disruptions and still find ways to thrive without bitterness.

For that matter, I've never fully understood why the Palestinians living in refugee camps never managed to do this. Consider: the Middle East is a large area, and the vast majority of it is Arab-dominated. Why haven't most of the Palestinians gone to Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or one of the many other surrounding Arab nations to start new lives? Why continue to live in refugee camps, waiting for decades to return to a land that most will probably never be able to return to? Why not accept that what's done is done, and cannot be easily undone? (Once again, I will not get into the debate over whether Isreal's actions post-1948 were just or not.)

Could the answer possibly be that they will not even consider letting go of the idea of their "rightful homeland", and hold on to their bitterness as long as the land is under Isreal's control? If this is so, it seems to be causing a great deal of self-inflicted suffering. It's the result of being completely fixated on one particular idea of "the way things should be", when in fact there are many acceptable possibilities.

The conclusion I have been coming to lately is this: all land-ownership claims that are based on history are invalid. No one - neither the Isrealis, nor the Palestinians, nor the Native Americans, nor the Northern Irish, nor anyone else - can claim that any piece of land anywhere should be theirs, simply because their people occupied it in the past. The Isrealis can't claim that Jerusalem is theirs because they owned it in Biblical times, and the Palestinians can't claim that it's theirs because they lived there before WWII. No matter who you are, your people was not the first to occupy the land in which you now live, and will probably not be the last. Chances are your people's ancestors conquered the land in some ancient brutal conquest, displacing those living there at the time, who had also come to occupy it through an earlier, equally brutal conquest.

And I have only this to say about it: get over it. The injustices of the past will never be completely rectified while this world lasts. They don't have to be. What is required, then? I think that one of my favorite older bands, DC Talk, said it well in their song Colored People:


Ignorance has wronged some races
And vengeance is the Lord's
If we aspire to share this space
Repentance is the cure


And there it is. Repentence, forgiveness, reconcilliation - a willingness to put the past behind, to not demand recompence for past wrongs, and to change one's own ways for the good of others. Each of us must give up some of our own "rights" for the sake of peace and justice.

Back to the point: many Isrealis lost their homes in centuries of persecution all over the world. Many Palestinians have lost their homes in the continuing conflict with Isreal. Now some Isrealis are losing their homes as well. Many more people on both sides will lose their homes before all this is over. All should recognize their place in the great tragedy we call "human history" and should make the best of it. Flexibility and adaptability will go a long way towards easing the pain, while bitterness and stubborness will only make it worse.

[Idaho]

You know that isn't analgous, Idaho.

What is the point of making a concession for the aim of peace if your opponent is claiming it's their own terrorist actions that brought it about? Doesn't it seem like it's just encouraging more terrorism?

I'm all for the settlers moving out if it's actually going to make progress. If it's just encouraging the Palestinian 'only the Intifadah gets results' mentality, then what will this solve?

It seems the only people who are appreciating this move by the Israelis are the Western governments involved in the process.

Nonsensical and childish.

The Palestinians are more than Hamas. Of course any bit of progress the militants are going to claim as their own - so what? That is the ultimate dog in the manger. Don't change because someone we don't like may have wanted us to change.

Simple justice and peace demands that Israel abandon it's settlements and help construct a viable Palestinian state.

[Idaho]

For that matter, I've never fully understood why the Palestinians living in refugee camps never managed to do this. Consider: the Middle East is a large area, and the vast majority of it is Arab-dominated. Why haven't most of the Palestinians gone to Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or one of the many other surrounding Arab nations to start new lives? Why continue to live in refugee camps, waiting for decades to return to a land that most will probably never be able to return to? Why not accept that what's done is done, and cannot be easily undone? (Once again, I will not get into the debate over whether Isreal's actions post-1948 were just or not.)

Because the majority of them don't hold passports, are stateless without full citizenship rights? That the few who do escape are those with enough money to get citizenship or train to get decent jobs.

You have a woefully inadequte appreciation of what it means in this world to be a refugee. It aint Kansas mate - they can't just hitch a ride to the next state and do a few double shifts washing dishes to pay for their own college.

[drone]

My understanding was that all settlements in Gaza and the West Bank were illegal under international law. Those territories could be occupied to prevent militarization, but the land could not be settled by Israeli citizens, and the territories could not be annexed. So these people are only being asked to cease an illegal activity. Sharon had a big hand in creating the settlements, now he is ending them.

The manpower and risk to protect these settlements has exceeded the political desire to keep them. Sharon is just being realistic here. But I don't expect him to back down on any claims on current Israeli borders. Just as I don't expect the Palestinians to stop trying...

[UglyandHasty]

If the Israelis think they'll find peace by abandoning Gaza, i think they are sourly mistaking. The Palestinians radicals will see this move as a sign of weakness and will double their effort to blow more Israelis.

[Redleg]

Before jumping to conclusions what is going to happen - I will give it a month and then look at the actions of the Palenstine Authority.

Israel has made the first step in attempting to bring a peaceful solution to the problem - it is now the Palenstine people's turn.

[Kagemusha]

I agree with Redleg on this one.Lets see how it turns out.

[Adrian II]

Nonsensical and childish.

On the contrary, I think it is rather sensible of Proletariat to demand measures that produce results, not mere gestures or postures. And this withdrawal is an encouraging move by Tel Aviv, whatever second or third thoughts and 'hidden' intentions Sharon may harbour.

The Palestinians have a problem of a different nature. That problem is the very real possibility that the Israeli withdrawal may be the sign for an overt conflict or even a civil war between Fatah and Hamas and their various affiliates and branches, starting in Gaza and spreading to the West Bank.

[Al Khalifah]

This is my great worry for a Palestinian state, Adrian. No one is really in control and the intentions of the different powerful groups are not in sync. There has already been extensive violence between the Palestinian security forces and Hamas, even with the common 'enemy' of Israel still in place.

If Palestine were made a state and Hamas comitted a major terrorist attack against Israel, Israel would demand retribution, but the Authority cannot control Hamas. What then?