No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms (update: Kingdoms patch announced)

[SenseiTW]

Hi guys,

First of all apologies for the delay in a response on this. We have been working behind the scenes and talking to the CA OZ development team about the situation but I wanted to be clearer on where things are before posting.

Each of our titles has a scheduled development time on which we can work on them, and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release. The Oz team have since begun work on a new project, which is why a previous post stated that at the present time there are no scheduled updates in the pipeline for Kingdoms.

We are however listening to your concerns, examining the issues in question and are currently looking into ways to support you to the fullest extent with the resources at our disposal.

Thanks,

Mark O'Connell
(aka SenseiTW)

[sapi]

Thanks for the update.

I doubt many of the serious issues with the current engine could be fixed in a patch, at any rate.

[Mori Gabriel Syme]

Thank you for the update. Is there a chance that they will remove SecuRom while they are at this?

[FactionHeir]

While I appreciate the update from CA, and this is not aimed at SenseiTW in particular, the post was a diplomatic way of saying we may or may not do something, but more likely we won't.
Its part of company policy though to not say anything that could be seen as binding, but until there is a concrete yes or no on a future patch that will fix more than what 1.3 "fixed" and hopefully come close to or exceed 1.2, I wouldn't hold my hopes too high.

[fallen851]

So happy I didn't buy M2TW. RTW was enough to turn me away. Now I get to play EB though!

[Odin]

Well posters should at least take solace in the fact that a rep from CA replied to the thread and is reading the posts. I tend to be more in the camp of factionheir in my feelings on this (although he is far more diplomatic) but one only needs to read a couple of lines from sensei's post which are very revealing.

Each of our titles has a scheduled development time on which we can work on them, and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release.

So one can assume based that the "scheduled development time" has expired, one can also assume that since there was no anticipation of the few issued that surfaced, there was never a plan to address them.

Cavaet Emptor, really gents its all about you and your purchase. CA reads the posts, is a pretty reasonable company, they just are apart of an industry that relies on user fixes and modification to propel the life of the games.

Nothing wrong with this, but as a consumer you have to decide if thats what you want to support or not. Now the SecuRom business, thats a different animal, but 2 handed fixes, rebalanced units, bad text files thats all out there and can be modded.

Expecting CA to do it when there are others who do it efficiently and for free via the modding community displays a lack of understanding of the business model. RTW seems a notable exception, but really I think expecting another through patch from CA is like getting blood out of a stone.

Look to the modding community, and your wallet.

[alpaca]

Hi guys,

First of all apologies for the delay in a response on this. We have been working behind the scenes and talking to the CA OZ development team about the situation but I wanted to be clearer on where things are before posting.

Each of our titles has a scheduled development time on which we can work on them, and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release. The Oz team have since begun work on a new project, which is why a previous post stated that at the present time there are no scheduled updates in the pipeline for Kingdoms.

We are however listening to your concerns, examining the issues in question and are currently looking into ways to support you to the fullest extent with the resources at our disposal.

Thanks,

Mark O'Connell
(aka SenseiTW)

This is not aimed directly at you Mark and I want you to know I'm usually pretty civil in my comments and lately defended you guys who come visit the forums and actually talk to us (breaking the self-imposed silence of your management which I'm thankful for) but this is not an understatement, it's an insult.
I know that you probably can't really talk about it freely, but make your chief read this.

Jeez you can't expect me to believe this junk. I am sure that the management knew about a lot of these issues. The Kalmar Union not working is not something you can overlook if you try it even once (judging from what I hear anyways). They just decided that they don't care because people will buy it anyways. Then they decided that they wouldn't need a patch afterwards because simply put, you already have our money.
If what you say was true and you "didn't anticipate the few issues that came up with kingdoms" you should seriously fire your project manager in down under as soon as possible because he's definitely not up to the job.

This is the last drop, I won't buy another game from CA until I am 100% convinced that this totally arrogant and disparaging company policy changed. A lot of us aren't stupid you know, so don't try to sell us bullshit as truffle-pâté
And I hope some more people from the community will arrive at similar conclusions about buying Empires.

[FactionHeir]

I think Odin and alpaca have brought up another valid point.

How can the development time be over by the time you just released an expansion pack already? IMHO there should be support for both the game and the expansion pack, but at least the expansion should gain additional support for at least the same amount of time the main game has and not be shelved the moment it is released, which is what seems to have happened.

To say it bluntly, while you may have anticipated that a patch would not fix all the issues optimally, you could have put all these hardcode fixes on the expansion to make it more than just another simple mod to M2TW. This would also have raised the number of buyers I am sure (if of course you had not opted for SecuROM either).

It is unfortunate that Total War is being run into the ground like this, really, but if you think its SEGA limiting you, you probably should be choosing another publisher.
Alternatively, as alpaca suggested, fire the persons responsible for project management and Q&A, because they really do not deserve to work on this title.

[Noir]

Originally posted by Odin
...but 2 handed fixes, rebalanced units, bad text files thats all out there and can be modded.

Disagree. Not all of it can be modded - the CA appointed team to re-balance kingdoms (Palamedes & Celtiberos clan) did the re-balancing and they were in all probability restricted by various parameters in what they can "mod" to rebalance the game. Such parameters include most notably the new animations that tie up the people that do the balancing. These are to my understanding predetermined by graphics artists and are most likely very hard work to change afterwards - so they won't be. That's all for the sake of the "finishing moves".

Mtw2 vanilla (not kingdoms) recieved two patches (one of them "day zero" ) that were huge (it meant that there was a lot to be done), and is left as is from then on even if its still not up to the level of the expansion, and you are saying that this is fine? RTW received 5 patches and MTW had more than enough passes to actually make it the technically most well working and balanced engine version of TW so far. But according to you M2 does not merit the same fate - all who bougth the game should have known better, i guess.

What about the mp community that gets fragmented with every version and mod that tries to introduce balance? I guess they are buying the game for nothing, right? It is to their best interest that the vanilla game is up and working and has received as much effort in balancing as possible. At least if you believe what CA promised prior to release they wanted to deliver along these lines, but it turns out that the game is left with 5 uncompatible exe's after kingdoms.

Modding is an extra thing the community added to TW on its own account - its not an excuse in my eyes for a developer to offer a product with bugs and broken features.

Noir

[Daveybaby]

Thanks for the heads up.

...and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release... at the present time there are no scheduled updates in the pipeline for Kingdoms.

Firstly I do find it incomprehensible that there was no contingency set aside for a patch to kingdoms. IIRC every TW release to date has required at least one patch, so the decision not to plan for one for kingdoms is frankly baffling. In fact can't think of any strategy game (going back to the civ/moo days) of any kind of complexity that didnt require patching - there is so much stuff that can only get noticed once you have thousands of people playing the game repeatedly.

Secondly I, for one, think that the need to patch kingdoms is actually secondary to the need for a further patch for the main campaign - the game just doesnt provide any kind of a challenge for an even halfway competent player, even on the hardest difficulty. While i will concede that rewriting the strategic AI is off the cards, it would be nice to at least make the AI offer some kind of challenge by fixing its invariably bad economy - even if all you do is give it financial bonuses on hard and very hard.

Go on - just sneak a few config variables in there for us to play with:
ai_econ_bonus_easy 1.0
ai_econ_bonus_normal 1.0
ai_econ_bonus_hard 1.5
ai_econ_bonus_vhard 2.0

We wont tell anyone. Promise.

[Odin]

Disagree. Not all of it can be modded - the CA appointed team to re-balance kingdoms (Palamedes & Celtiberos clan) did the re-balancing and they were in all probability restricted by various parameters in what they can "mod" to rebalance the game. Such parameters include most notably the new animations that tie up the people that do the balancing. These are to my understanding predetermined by graphics artists and are most likely very hard work to change afterwards - so they won't be. That's all for the sake of the "finishing moves".

Your disagreement is based on an assumption "were in all probability", thats hardly evidence of the fact, but okay I am going to assume you know what your talking about, i am no modder.

Mtw2 vanilla (not kingdoms) recieved two patches (one of them "day zero" ) that were huge (it meant that there was a lot to be done), and is left as is from then on even if its still not up to the level of the expansion, and you are saying that this is fine?

I didnt say anything was fine, I said its confirmed gaming practice, pick a PC release since 2003, and you'll either find patches (based on consumer bug finding) or mods that correct balance and add content. Its a fact of the gaming industry, I didnt create it, but dont take my word for it, go ahead pick the title you want and go investigate.

As further evidence of this practice as a condition of the industry, remember patch 1.02? the promised release date, the "leaked" version and then the subsequent 2-3 week wait while items were corrected?

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its a duck. While I cant verify this absolutely (my insinuation) I ask the same modicum of assumption I gave you in the first quoted paragraph.

RTW received 5 patches and MTW had more than enough passes to actually make it the technically most well working and balanced engine version of TW so far. But according to you M2 does not merit the same fate -all who bougth the game should have known better, i guess.

Yes they should have, the condtions of games (gasp) Total war series included is not a guarded secret. Again, I challenge you to find a title post 2003 that hasnt had patching, user feedback on bugs and modification of released content.

unless your suggesting that this was the first PC release to go to the consumer with problems?

All I am saying is nothing here should be surprising to anyone, the industry is well defined at this point, heck you have users on fan boards who recieve board citations, badges, titles for creating fixes to said games, and they wear links to them in thier sigs, or did you miss all of that?

What about the mp community that gets fragmented with every version and mod that tries to introduce balance? I guess they are buying the game for nothing, right?

Dont know what your talking about here mate, but if it makes you feel better to point the finger at someone else, by all means go ahead.

Modding is an extra thing the community added to TW on its own account - its not an excuse in my eyes for a developer to offer a product with bugs and broken features.

We agree ! it isnt an excuse at all, but it is a reason, like it or not.

[Noir]

Originally posted by Odin
...i am no modder.

Funny then that you comment on the potential of modding to solve certain issues.

I said its confirmed gaming practice

Its confirmed practice in companies that make it bigtime - smaller independent companies keep much more adequate support and even some large ones (like for example Blizzard) that kept on promoting their older games and their cult by continuous support.

...unless your suggesting that this was the first PC release to go to the consumer with problems?

No i am suggesting that M2 & Kingdoms are the first TW releases that get considerably less support than the previous ones. I am not interested in other games, the industry or its trends.

Dont know what your talking about here mate, but if it makes you feel better to point the finger at someone else, by all means go ahead.

I am certainly not pointing fingers to you or anyone else - if you played mp TW ever you'll well know what i am talking about if not i apologise: there was a whole thriving mp community eversince STW that got fragmented with every subsequent release due to the bugs and imbalances and the engine discontinuity; that community apparently was as big or bigger than the current one, even though internet was not as widespread those days. Mods fragment the community even more because mp players need to "abandon" their winning strategies to get accustomed to a mod or version; also it is vital that bugs like the 2hand are fixed directly for that community to grow.

All i am saying is that modding may be the a very good answer for SP, but it isn't for MP - that vanilla game needs to work for the folks that play the game in that mode.

...but it is a reason, like it or not.

Maybe so, then perhaps CA can confirm your view that so we can all start finding better things to do with our free time then.

Noir

[Odin]

Funny then that you comment on the potential of modding to solve certain issues.

Whats funny about it? I used LTC to correct the two handed bug issue and the shield fix. I didnt mod it myself, but I know it worked.

Its confirmed practice in companies that make it bigtime - smaller independent companies keep much more adequate support and even some large ones (like for example Blizzard) that kept on promoting their older games and their cult by continuous support.

Small independent companines support thier games because they need to be supported, and the additional content engenders a broader fanbase. It dosent negate the fact that at release, thier products needed help as well, again, you pick the title...

No i am suggesting that M2 & Kingdoms are the first TW releases that get considerably less support than the previous ones. I am not interested in other games, the industry or its trends.

If your not intrested in the industry or its trends then this conversation is pointless, and so is your particpation, because we are commenting on a trend in the gaming industry.

I am certainly not pointing fingers to you or anyone else - if you played mp TW ever you'll well know what i am talking about if not i apologise: there was a whole thriving mp community eversince STW that got fragmented with every subsequent release due to the bugs and imbalances and the engine discontinuity; that community apparently was as big or bigger than the current one, even though internet was not as widespread those days. Mods fragment the community even more because mp players need to "abandon" their winning strategies to get accustomed to a mod or version; also it is vital that bugs like the 2hand are fixed directly for that community to grow.

I didnt take your comment personally, its just a matter of speak really. I did play STW many moons ago, I get your point.

Maybe so, then perhaps CA can confirm your view that so we can all start finding better things to do with our free time then.

Why confirm the obvious? Again, pick the title you want, most games released now have an avid fanbase doing bug checks and reporting them at fan forums like this one.

For free ! why would any gaming company not encourage this?

[Slug For A Butt]

Each of our titles has a scheduled development time on which we can work on them, and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release. The Oz team have since begun work on a new project, which is why a previous post stated that at the present time there are no scheduled updates in the pipeline for Kingdoms.

Does this insinuate that you get X time to work on a piece of software, and after X time is up the software gets released whether it is ready for release or not? Also, that starting work on a new project takes precedence over correcting the issues prevalent in the existing software, purely because you have pre-scheduled your programmers without verifying the integrity of their work?
If this is the case as you seem to insinuate, I feel vindicated in my decision to no longer blindly buy TW games on release as I always used to. Kingdoms will probably be a second hand buy as will all my games in the TW series since the M2TW debacle.
This is NOT CA bashing, this is me reading between the lines and stating my feelings.
It is such a shame as no other game stirred me in the same way as the TW series.

[Puzz3D]

It is unfortunate that Total War is being run into the ground like this, really, but if you think its SEGA limiting you, you probably should be choosing another publisher.

This isn't an option because SEGA owns Creative Assembly. I would say that Creative Assembly should limit the number of features offered in their game to what can be successfully implimented in v1.0. This means being realistic with what resources are available, and also having a reasonable cut-off date beyond which new features are not allowed. That way a patch would only have to address unforseen stability issues and playbalance issues which I would think would be less work than also having to fix a myriad of broken features in a patch. It seems to me that SEGA would be more likely to approve a patch if it could be done quickly.

They just decided that they don't care because people will buy it anyways.

That's what happens when people buy a game despite it having serious problems. They don't get a better game next time. RTW was enough to convince me that it's now a better policy for players to take a wait and see attitude with games made by Creative Assembly.

[Zenicetus]

Thank you for the update. Is there a chance that they will remove SecuRom while they are at this?

More specifically.... will they release a utility for completely removing hidden SecureROm files left behind on the system, after the game is uninstalled? If they do that, I'll buy Kingdoms. Otherwise, no.

Same deal with ETW. I sure hope they've been paying attention to people's feelings about this issue. I'm really looking forward to ETW, but there are limits to what I'll let software do to my system, just to be able to play a game. Especially when there are other games around to play, that don't do this.

[TosaInu]

What about the mp community that gets fragmented with every version and mod that tries to introduce balance?

Hello,

Not sure whether I understood this and something in a follow up correctly.
Mods are not a bad thing for the MP community and are not responsible for a decline in MP players (is there -STW-M2TW-? absolute or relative?).

I agree that the vanilla needs to be solid, especially the (battle)engine and all that is around that. Mods for MP that offer something new, and decent support for that are good (sure you may get people going right while others go left, but I'm also convinced that MP mods will attract more people and avoid others just leave).

A load of MP mods that just try to fix vanilla (and fail because of hardcoded restrictions) are not good.

[Zim]

Thanks for the update, SenseiTW. For what it's worth, I think a majority of players would be happy with a small fix for some of the advertised campaign features (i.e. Welsh reinforcements, Kalmar Union, stone castles for Crusades or changing their appearance on the campaign map to the wooden forts they appear as in battles).

[candelarius]

Hi guys,

First of all apologies for the delay in a response on this. We have been working behind the scenes and talking to the CA OZ development team about the situation but I wanted to be clearer on where things are before posting.

Each of our titles has a scheduled development time on which we can work on them, and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release. The Oz team have since begun work on a new project, which is why a previous post stated that at the present time there are no scheduled updates in the pipeline for Kingdoms.

We are however listening to your concerns, examining the issues in question and are currently looking into ways to support you to the fullest extent with the resources at our disposal.

Thanks,

Mark O'Connell
(aka SenseiTW)

Thanks for a written reply to our concerns, but, you still didn't answer if you plan on making a patch for Kingdoms or not. How about commissioning Unspoken Knight to release another one-dev unofficial patch? I'd be happy with that...or how about a "hotfix" to solve the major issues? Finally, the "resources at your disposal" were willfully misallocated...you should have planned on at least one patch for Kingdoms, and should have at least some people who are not working on new projects to fix the existing ones. Please consult with the Higher Ups, and advise them that making new games is nice, but, nobody will buy them if they stop supporting their games properly.

[Noir]

Originally posted by TosaInu
Mods are not a bad thing for the MP community and are not responsible for a decline in MP players

Hi Tosa,
i meant that mods aiming for the mp community can never replace a fully workable and balanced vanilla game; it is my undersatnding that a solid, bug-free working vanilla game may offer the best in that department from an mp point of view including the fact that it will probably contribute in the potential for modding.

I agree that the vanilla needs to be solid, especially the (battle)engine and all that is around that. Mods for MP that offer something new, and decent support for that are good (sure you may get people going right while others go left, but I'm also convinced that MP mods will attract more people and avoid others just leave).

A load of MP mods that just try to fix vanilla (and fail because of hardcoded restrictions) are not good.

Agreed and exactly how i meant it.

Originally posted by Odin
If your not intrested in the industry or its trends then this conversation is pointless, and so is your particpation, because we are commenting on a trend in the gaming industry.

Not really IMO. Modding is without arguing a good thing - depending on modding to fix basic issues on new releases and leave them without taking them up to a certain level cannot be good IMHO though either. If you or anyone else wishes to accept this because of the context the gaming industry opertates then fine - yet, i compare current TW releases with older TW releases and with the potential the TW game conceptually and otherwise has for good gameplay. Solving basic bug issues with patches cannot ever be substituted by workarounds done by modders IMO.

For example you mention balacing of units in your post - yet the new animations make balancing more difficult because altering the balance is not based on the stats alone anymore. LTC fixes some issues not all issues by workarounds and it was in my understanding the model for the rebalancing in Kingdoms - well done to Lusted and all others that were involved as i noted elsewhere.

Where we disagree is that you seem to suggest that mods should be taken for granted instead of patching support as a policy from the developers while i suggest that they should patch the games either by adopting fixes and balance from certain mods or otherwise in, however official patches.

A major reason for this is that the majority of people who buy the game do not frequent forums and do not even know that mods exist - it is unfair to them to say the least. Another major reason is that mods can't work around all hardcoded limitations and there are plenty to my understanding.

Noir

[madalchemist]

I think I realized why developers and employees cannot say anything about patches/future projects.

Anything they do, either speak or stay silent when there are problems does not help much the community's opinion.

The sad fact is, the above statement is true because the community had valid reasons to rant (as it has valid reasons now).

Alpaca has been quite polite, everyone can see huge bugs that appear the first time you play and could not be ignored, and we aren't stupid, either.

So it comes naturally for many to drop completely TW series, at least until you release playable games (and deal with the customers as if they were paying ones).

If the game would have been playable (maybe after 2-3 patches, not vanilla), you could have said anything and have the community stay its size, but as long as the opposite is true I'd say there is no way for you to keep it from growing smaller.

[hrvojej]

So, they (whoever pulls the strings at least) thought they will be able to release a bug-free game, but in the end there was a lack of skill to do it. Despite all this, there is still not a shred of excuse for abandoning the grand campaign altogether even before the expansion.

What's totally baffling to me is that people are once again willing to forgive this kind of behavior and give it another go. How many times is it going to take, I wonder, before this kind of policy ceases to be rewarded? I stopped buying TW games after original RTW (I got both M2TW and Kingdoms as presents, but that's fixed now). I don't see how anyone can just shrug shoulders and rush to buy ETW, and then go through all this all over again. But to each his/her own, I guess.

[icek]

The CA official post above just show that nothing changed from m1tw. theyre just a machine that you must pay for if you want it to work even slighty more.

[edyzmedieval]

but this is not an understatement, it's an insult.

Jeez you can't expect me to believe this junk. I am sure that the management knew about a lot of these issues. The Kalmar Union not working is not something you can overlook if you try it even once (judging from what I hear anyways). They just decided that they don't care because people will buy it anyways. Then they decided that they wouldn't need a patch afterwards because simply put, you already have our money.
If what you say was true and you "didn't anticipate the few issues that came up with kingdoms" you should seriously fire your project manager in down under as soon as possible because he's definitely not up to the job.

This is the last drop, I won't buy another game from CA until I am 100% convinced that this totally arrogant and disparaging company policy changed. A lot of us aren't stupid you know, so don't try to sell us bullshit as truffle-pâté
And I hope some more people from the community will arrive at similar conclusions about buying Empires.

Ditto. Insulting CA, VERY insulting.
That seals it. Kingdoms is the last TW title I have bought. Empire:TW, bye bye!

[TosaInu]

Hi Tosa,
i meant that mods aiming for the mp community can never replace a fully workable and balanced vanilla game; it is my undersatnding that a solid, bug-free working vanilla game may offer the best in that department from an mp point of view including the fact that it will probably contribute in the potential for modding.

Agreed and exactly how i meant it.

Noir

Hello Noir,

We look at it the same way then.

[Prodigal]

It will still come out unfinished though, so I don't quite understand your point

Was looking at it from the position that "it does what it says on the packet"

Issues such as suicidal generals, ranged melee etc. can be construed as simply game balance, not an outright bugs.

But, I've just been reading that during the Teuton campaign the alliance between Danes & Nowegians does not allow you to use the unique units, and that, no matter how you look at it is a 100% pure gold bug which needs to be fixed.

I can't see how they can simply omit a whole freaking feature from a quater of the product and expect customers to smile happily and go about their buisiness.

[alpaca]

I think I realized why developers and employees cannot say anything about patches/future projects.

Anything they do, either speak or stay silent when there are problems does not help much the community's opinion.

The sad fact is, the above statement is true because the community had valid reasons to rant (as it has valid reasons now).

Alpaca has been quite polite, everyone can see huge bugs that appear the first time you play and could not be ignored, and we aren't stupid, either.

So it comes naturally for many to drop completely TW series, at least until you release playable games (and deal with the customers as if they were paying ones).

If the game would have been playable (maybe after 2-3 patches, not vanilla), you could have said anything and have the community stay its size, but as long as the opposite is true I'd say there is no way for you to keep it from growing smaller.

To be honest I believe that saying "yes, we made mistakes but we're trying our best to fix them" would be much better for the company's reputation than keeping silent, or pretending to not have known about obviously apparent problems before. The former is slightly smelly because it shows that CA/SEGA didn't take enough time to work on and polish their product, but unfortunately that's usus in the industry. The latter however shows all signs of a blatant and deliberate falsehood.
It's still better than not saying anything at all. At least it clearly reflects the company policy.

Edit: I wouldn't immediately have bought ETW anyways. M2TW taught me to stay wary of CA's games. I also waited with kingdoms, and it turns out I was right as I can now just not buy it.

[Stuie]

Each of our titles has a scheduled development time on which we can work on them, and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release.

Oh come on! Name one game or expansion you guys have released that did not require a patch. Thinking that there wouldn't be any issues with the software upon public release is just crazy.

Any decent development house would plan for some level of support after a release.

[lancelot]

While I appreciate the update from CA, and this is not aimed at SenseiTW in particular, the post was a diplomatic way of saying we may or may not do something, but more likely we won't.
Its part of company policy though to not say anything that could be seen as binding, but until there is a concrete yes or no on a future patch that will fix more than what 1.3 "fixed" and hopefully come close to or exceed 1.2, I wouldn't hold my hopes too high.

Completely agree.

I hope Im proved wrong, I really do but given the current trends shown by CA (and the remarks about 'development time' which to me suggests CA gets x amount of time and if it dont work in that time-tough.) I cant see any TW game ever again being brought up to spec unless by some miracle it comes out of the box that way.

[Veresov]

I have to say after reading all the posts that the majority of you posters have been extremely naive. CA has never supported its products adequately and has been blowing smoke by blaming the game publishers, deadlines, and ofcourse the "suits". Remember Activision and how everything was their fault and how much better things would be under Sega? Seriously, if there was an honest intent to support any of their games, there would be support. Its that simple.

Expect more of the same with 'Empire'. It will have loads of eye candy but as always will be at the expense of gameplay.