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Thread: Imperial Diet VII

  1. #31
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Elberhard: I wish to publicly endorse King Matthias's revision of the Outremer Charter. Matthias was gracious enough to consult me on the draft and I agreed that it adapts my father's vision for Outremer to these more desperate times. I also congratulate Matthias on his great victory over the Byzantines. He is, of course, formally re-appointed as King of Outremer (or, if CA 14.2 passes, Viceroy).

    I must inform the Electors that Duke Arnold is taking the opportunity provided by his breaking of the siege of Ragusa to conduct diplomatic negotiations with neighbouring powers. I believe he will return to the Diet on Monday.

    Finally, I was remiss in not welcoming the many new Electors to their first Diet. I confess, there were so many new faces, I did not know all your names. Now, however, my wife ... I mean the scribes ... have provided me with a proper Electoral roll, so let me make good my earlier lack of manners.

    Count Ehrhart Ruppel - I see in you the sword arm of the Duke of Swabia. You have already been of invaluable service against our enemies - both external and internal.

    Count Ludwig von Bohmen - the return of a prodigal son is always most keenly felt.

    Andreas von Salzgitter - may you grow to love the sun and sand of Outremer as much as I did. And if you happened to find any elephants, write me ... we can work something out.

    Hugo von Holland - I was going to welcome any aid you could give us against the French, but your service in Outremer would be just as valued.

    Count Dieter von Kassel - you have just attained full manhood and yet already your service to the Reich has been immeasurable.

    Lukas Godwinson - Franconia must be reborn; it is well that we have young captains such as you to assist in the labour. Just watch those castle steps, they can be mighty slippery this time of year...

    Count Lorenz Zirn - thank you for your services during the cataclysm and especially for assisting in the relief of Prague. Those Poles had me worried about Count Becker's militia army for a while...

    Maxmillan von Hapsburg - I like the sound of your name, it seems to promise great things. Welcome, soldier! It is good to see you here.

    Dieter von Essen - It is most welcome to see Austria emerge at last with so many prominent Electors. And congratulations, son! (sotto voce) At least that's one Elector who won't be sniffing round my daughter.

    Hans von Bavaria - I heard you might be considering a life in the diplomatic service, but you made the smart choice, lad - diplomacy is for pussies. What House are you in, by the way?


    @#$%^&!!!ing hell - you newcomers seem to outnumber us old timers! While you may make me feel old, your presence here makes the Reich young and strong! Welcome all!
    Last edited by econ21; 12-15-2007 at 01:07.

  2. #32
    Peter von Kastilien - RIP Member gibsonsg91921's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    In response to Dieter's charges and Count Zirn's responses, I would say that Arnold's duties in during the cataclysm were not cowardly or incapable in the least. I will grant that Arnold possibly would have attacked Bohemia if he could, I concede that he was wise not to when he would have damaged his loyal Counts. He is blameless as far as I can see.

    Fritz is very noble as well, saving his rival Dieter from being outnumbered in Magdeburg, as well as slaying large numbers of our enemies, saving Franconia when all seemed lost. His fortitude kept all Duchies safer. There are countless heroes of the cataclysm, sung and unsung, and Fritz is certainly amongst those numbers. He can lead the Reich just as ably as Arnold.

    This will be a very close race. If one does not come out as a far better candidate than the other I will abstain from voting to keep the peace.
    The late Emperor Peter von Kastilien the Tyrant, Lamm der Wahrheit.

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  3. #33
    Saruman the Wise Member deguerra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    After a long hard ride through French lines, Ludwig enters the Diet at Nürnberg. He looks around somewhat sheepishly at all the mighty men sitting in his midst, but there is a slight gleem of despise in his eyes as well

    Mein Kaiser, I thank you for your kind remarks, and hope I prove as good a subject as you can wish for. I have lost my father some years ago, and it would do me honour to call you father, in symbol only of course, as you are father to all of your subjects, Dukes, Counts, Lords, Knights and Commoners.

    I wish to briefly publically endorse the new charter for Outremer as well. I am in no position to do any more, but home that any small contribution I can give will help the most courageous and brave amongst us, who choose to fight for the Empire there.

    I also fully agree that Antwerp should be incorporated into the Empire. Before now, I have considered it my duty to protect both Flemish cities, Bruges and Antwerp alike, but under the threat of French invasion I find myself incapable of guaranteeing the safety of Antwerps citizens, while I struggle to hold Bruges. I therefore fully endorse placing Antwerp into Eberhardts sheltering hands.
    Saruman the White
    Chief of the White Council, Lord of Isengard, Protector of Dunland

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Alexander Luther:

    *Noticing Elberhard's empty chair, he smiles. It appears that the Kaiser has gone out for a quick rest. "So much the better," he mumbles.*

    Electors! Good people of the Reich! It warms my heart to see you all here, in Nuremburg, safe and organized. Finally, after the all the turmoil of the past years, I do hope that we are ready to rebuild our great Empire once again.

    I have been invited to the Diet here, albeit in a non-voting capacity (he glares at the empty chair) to present my views and hopefully bring a formal end to the religious conflict that threatened to tear what was left of the country apart.

    However, it is clear to everyone that I am no longer a simple theologian. Ever since early on in Siegfried von Kastilien's fateful reign as Chancellor, I, for the most part, have been around military men, political men. Men who were concerned with far more than religion. These people had more temporal strategies, strategies for winning battles, wars, strategies on how to go about the little politics that took place during the Cataclysm. Electors, it is safe to say that I have picked up a little bit of their thought patterns and knowledge.

    And from what knowledge I do have, one thing is clear: We need to unify, and we need to show the world that we are unified. We need to show the world that there is no longer a Swabian Civil War, which I regret to have ever been a part of. We need to show the world that, once again, our House Armies will rise up and threaten all of those unfriendly nations that border our superior one. We need to show the world that, once again, we are united under Kaiser and Chancellor!!!

    *His eyes darken.*

    Most notably, we need to show the Byzantines.

    These traitorous scum betrayed us. We had a good alliance going for over a century. We had a mutual defense pact in Outremer that seemingly only we, thanks to Matthias Steffen, honored. We even had damn fool of a Kaiser, God rest his soul, ready to "rule" with a much older, wiser Emperor whispering in the shadows through his daughter. But it was not enough!

    Electors, they wanted Italy. They wanted Outremer. They wanted Austria. And by all accounts, they cared little for merely taking over the place. When they invaded, they killed. Slaughtered thousands, tens of thousands of innocent women and children. Electors, this was by no means a simple war of conquest. This was a war of extermination, a war to wipe us off the face of the map for some unknown offense we committed to them. A war of extreme greed.

    Well, I say it's payback time. We need to show them, militarily and morally, that we are the stronger. We need to show them that we can conquer them and still be civil to their innocents. We need to show them that you can never threaten the Reich and get away with it!

    I propose, along with the support of Kaiser Elberhard himself, a resolution that will focus our efforts for the next several decades, on eradicating the Byzantine menace once and for all!!!

    Charter Amendment 14.4: All Byzantine settlements are to be conquered and incorporated into the Reich by 1500. To demonstrate the moral superiority of the Reich, no captured Byzantine settlements may be exterminated and all loot from them must to be donated to the Papacy.

    Yes, this war will be long. Yes, it will be costly, and in more ways than one. But, Electors, there are some things worth the cost. There are some things that nobody can forgive. Rome, Bologna, Venice, Antioch; they lie in ruins, nearly deserted except for the unholy barracks that house Satan's instruments of destruction.

    The first steps to this are to, naturally, take back what is ours. But then, we shall continue. We shall keep striking, keep fighting, keep pushing until Greece, and Turkey, and Constantinople itself once again is taken!

    And then, Electors, when the last city falls, the world will shake. The world will tremble at our power, our might, our wrath. And the world will know to never anger the Reich again!

    Siegfried von Kastilien had a dream. He wanted the Roman Empire reunited. And he shall see his dream occur. We will be reunited - through conquest! Under the golden Eagle! Where every Byzantine, still living in prosperous cities that pay taxes to Rome, kneels before their true ruler: The Kaiser of the Reich!

    Electors, what say you?!
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
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  5. #35
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Andreas briefly has a deer in headlights expression, as if trying to both process the shock of being addressed by the Kaiser and the oddness of his words. He recovers and bows.

    Mein Kaiser, thank you for the welcome. I miss the snow in my homeland, but otherwise I find the climate in Outremer quite pleasant. Should I see any elephants, I will report it to you immediately.

    Andreas then bows respectfully to Zirn.

    Lord Zirn, I am very pleased that both candidates are such clear supporters of Outremer. I do not doubt Duke Arnolds devotion to guarding Jerusalem. I only wished to draw specifics from them with my question. Perhaps it is an unreasonable question given that circumstances could change drastically and alter both the needs of the Reich as a whole and those of Outremer.

    Count Ludwig receives a nod.

    Hail Count Ludwig. It is a pleasure and privelege to meet the Count of my parents' adopted city. Would you happen to know them?
    Last edited by Zim; 12-15-2007 at 01:14.
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  6. #36
    Tiberius/Fred/Mark/Isaak Member flyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Lukas Godwinson had been present in the Franconian section during most of the debate. He acknowledged the Kaiser with a nod after being addressed, and was red in the face and visibly shaking with rage during Luther's speech, but has not said anything.
    Βασιλεοπατωρ Ισαακιος Κομνηνος
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  7. #37
    Fredericus Erlach Member Stuperman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignoramus
    We must redistribute provinces in the Reich. Had we not such stark geograpical divisions amongst the Houses, then no rebellion would ever succeed. How would Herr Hummel have fared if Bruges had belogned to Bavaria? Or if Metz belonged to Franconia? We must overcome past sentiments and rebuild the Reich.
    I do not understand...You advocate a policy that would provide support for such a rebel? This is nonsense! You advocate a policy that by your admission would make the riech weaker and more suseptable to attacks and brigandry. This after we have seen the devistation that such things can breed.

    The Reich has lost almost half her territory in just 40 years, land that took more than 300 to amass, and we are by no means in the clear. We still have limited control in some provinces, and enemy armies run rampant on our lands. Gentlemen we still have much work to do before we can call ourselves true Germans and Guardians of the Church. Electors that encourage further weakening of the Reich should be dealt with harshly.

    And Luther, We should conquor the Greeks, although I'd advocate more of a Kill them all Let God work it out Strategy.
    Fredericus Erlach, Overseer of Genoa, Count of Ajaccio in exile, 4th elector of Bavaria.


  8. #38
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Herr Fredericus, I believe that Herr von Hapsburg is saying that in a Reich where political power is less regionalized, it would be harder for a rebel to muster the resources to cause her harm. If Bruges were Bavarian, A Swabian pretender like Hummel would have had trouble controlling them.

    I disagree with his assessment. Having territories assigned to Houses almost randomly, without thought to giving well organized regions to the Dukes, would hurt the Reich, I think, and have made it all but impossible for the Dukes to have marshalled their forces against foreign invasion during the Cataclysm.
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  9. #39
    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Alexander Luther:

    Count Erlach, as you have probably gleaned from my writings, I'm inclined to agree with your assessment. However, in the spirit of unity and reconciliation Kaiser Elberhard and I have agreed that the no extermination caveat be added.

    I once again implore the Electors to support this important CA. We cannot let the Byzantines get away with what they have done.
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
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    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.


  10. #40
    Makedonios Ksanthopoulos Member Privateerkev's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Dieter von Essen perks up when he hears the Kaiser speak his name. But his cheeks go red when the Kaiser brings up Princess Eue.

    Mein Kaiser!

    I swear I would never do such a thing! I am a happily married man! All men wish they could be so lucky as I!

    Dieter puffs out his chest and pounds it to accentuate his point. It is obvious that the young man is not used to such lewd language coming from the Emperor.


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  11. #41

    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Hans, who has become more comfortable with his surroundins, stands upon being addressed by the Emperor.

    Mein Kaiser, I belong to the noble house of Bavaria, as you may guess by my surname, which I hope I can represent well in the years to come.

    Hans pauses and then adds as an afterthought;

    I second Amendment 14.4. We must show the people the mercy the Greeks have not shown, particularly, for mighty and lasting empires are built on mercy, kindness, and trust of the people in the wisdom and nobility of their rulers, while massacres invariably are the downfall of the greatest empires.

    Thinking this statement to be sufficient, Hans sits again.

  12. #42
    Prince Louis of France (KotF) Member Ramses II CP's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    I second Charter Amendment 14.4 as well. The Byzantines are far from my House lands, but they are at the root of all the troubles that have bedeviled the Reich.

    Furthermore, I wish to say that my run for Chancellor must not become divisive! I am deeply grateful for your support Dieter, which shows wisdom and loyalty in equal measures. Yet while I may question if Duke Arnold is the most qualified contender, I do not question whether or not he is capable of the role. It seems clear to me that I am best prepared to take on the role of Chancellor, but I am not prepared to win at any cost, and if I were to be victorious over the Duke I would ask that nothing during the run be done or said in my favor that might alienate or disaffect any of the noble Dukes of the four Houses.

    Onto to further questions:

    Prinz Peter, as any who have been by the local bar can attest I have been studying the economic and other governmental reports continuously since my arrival in Nuremburg. There are thousands of details I have yet to grasp, but my general policy shall be one of consolidation of resources and and a careful examination of expenditures. I am not yet prepared to issue a detailed plan, but be assured it is in the works.

    Crusader von Salzgitter, as our private exchanges should make clear, my policy towards Outremer is unmitigated support. What the Holy Lands need, they shall get, so long as it is within the means of the Reich to provide. God has entrusted us a sacred burden there and it is not for men to decide to set it aside. I swear that even if Acre should somehow be lost the Reich's commitment to the Levant would be unwavering under me.

    Sir von Hapsburg, if you will forgive me, your plan sounds like a guaranteed way to drive more chaos and disorder into the heart of the Reich. If not for your services to date I would question whether you have the best interests of the Empire at heart. I suggest you reconsider your statements and reissue them. If the power of the Kaiser had not been far too great the madness of the attempted Unification could never have even begun, and you now propose to entrust that position with even more far reaching power. What's more your curious version of events does little to match the facts of the matter, most specifically including the Byzantine kidnapping and subsequent years of torture experienced by Matthias Steffen. It was only the steadfast intelligence of a few loyal Germans which narrowly averted the utter destruction of our whole people. Give them your thanks for your life, and withhold your petty insults.

    Father Luther your comments are insightful as ever. I am pleased you were able to attend the Diet and look forward to more discussion of the Byzantine problem with you.

    If there are further questions I shall assemble my notes and attempt to answer them in a timely manner.


  13. #43

    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Von Hapsburg rises to feet, with disdain evident on his face.

    We Hapsburgs thank no one for our protection. We are perfectly capable of defending our estates, even when others can't.

    I find it alarming that you advocate sending more men to the Outremer, when we can't even recruit more soldiers at home. For the Reich to survive, we must leave the Outremer to fend for itself. King Matthias is quite capable of holding the citadel at Acre, and now that the English are settled in the Levant, we should not fear Greek subjectgation.

    Von Hapsburg resumes his seat.

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  14. #44
    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Alexander Luther:

    I disagree. If we continue to support Outremer then we open up a legitimate second front against the Byzantines. The Levant was the former location of some of our most advanced troop training centers. If we can get, say, Adana back then we can put pressure on the Greeks from the East as well as the West.
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
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    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.


  15. #45

    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Not bothering to stand up, von Hapsburg leans forward with a serious expression on his face.

    The age of crusades has passed. While I, as any good Catholic, am glad to see the Holy City in Christian hands once more, I am not blind to the dangers of the Reich at home.

    Should we strengthen the enemies of Christendom? It is true that the Greeks could hardly be called Christians, yet even they are more tolerable than the infidel.

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  16. #46

    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Overhearing von Hapsburg speak, Hans von Bavaria reply.


    Perhaps I am too unfamiliar with the customs of the diet, but those words have a faint ring of treason to me. Forgive me if I am mistaken, but you seem to suggest that we should abandon a great opportunity to wipe out the hated Byzantines. Why should we show an ounce of mercy to them, when they could not find any mercy for the innocent people of half a dozen of our cities? They are vile and wicked and are preferable to none.

  17. #47
    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Alexander Luther:

    Tolerable?

    Tolerable??!?!

    With all due respect, von Hapsburg, where have you been the past several years?

    These... Byzantines lied to us. Betrayed us. They launched a full-scale invasion of Italy and Outremer, exterminating every city in their path. Murdering innocent women and children by the thousands. They sought to have every single solitary settlement in the Four Houses and Outremer burned to the ground! They sought to make the entire Western half of Europe a hollow ruin of itself!

    Tolerable?!

    No, von Hapsburg. The great Muslim Empires, worshipping an unholy figure, have not wrought this much combined destruction upon Christendom in their collective centuries of existence than the Byzantines have done in a few short years. They must pay.
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
    Mafia: Promoting peace and love since June 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.


  18. #48

    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Von Hapsburg rises to his feet.

    Hyprocrite! Did not your words tear the Reich assunder? You caused the the Greeks to commit these atrocities, and you alone. You stirred up Peter von Kastilien and urged him to sack Constantinople. We could hardly expect mercy from the Greeks after that.

    Your followers included Dietrich von Dassel and Wolfgang Hummel, both of whom wrecked Swabia and have brought the Reich to a precarious position.

    You Lutherans are the curse of the Reich; we would be well rid of you.

    Von Hapsburg resumes his seat.

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  19. #49
    Tiberius/Fred/Mark/Isaak Member flyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Unable to remain quiet, Lukas Godwinson stands and speaks.

    The Greeks were not the only ones to have wrought destruction. Internal fighting and...

    Godwinson looks at Luther

    ... Religious conflict have claimed as many, if not more, lives than the actions of the Greeks. Yet, we have agreed to put that aside, and rightly so. And if old grudges against our own can be put aside, perhaps other forms of blind hatred can take a rest too.

    Yes, what has been lost, must be regained. What is a threat must be eliminated. That is clear. But to call for a war of conquest for... revenge, at this hour... is... is...

    Godwinson starts to lose his composure. If he could, he would hate Luther to death! He regains some composure, and finishes.

    Well, Mr. Luther. You were allowed to speak freely in this Diet, the least you could have done is left your violent fanaticism at the door.
    Βασιλεοπατωρ Ισαακιος Κομνηνος
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  20. #50
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    A curious expression falls over Andreas' face at the mention of religious conflicts.

    Herr von Hapsburg, while I do not share the religious...sympathies that Herr Luther professes, I see little point in dredging up religious conflicts that have finally ended while the Reich is imploding. Luther has expressed regret over events in Swabia, and I was in Bruges when I saw the fruits of his penance. He helped raise the army used to free that city from French rule. The War of the Reformation has ended, and guilt can be assigned for it after the Reich recovers.

    The Byzantines have shown no respect for civilian life, exterminating many of the largest cities in the Reich. I, for one, would hardly consider them "tolerable". Even now they march south on Acre, intending to take it and thereby control the Pope. This would be both a blasphemy and a danger to the Reich. If moral or religious reasons are not enough for you, surely the security of the Reich is a good enough reason to support the project of Outremer.
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  21. #51
    Prince Louis of France (KotF) Member Ramses II CP's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    The War of Reformation was explicitly launched by the actions of a German who supported the Unification effort and returned to the Reich with the intent of making war on Father Luther and his disciples. History will not be lied about in these chambers! No one can force another to commit an atrocity, no more than I can force you to say such foolish things as to undermine your own cause. You do that on your own, just as the Byzantines exterminated our cities and slaughtered our citizens on their own.

    Father Luther spoke the truth, revealed the Byzantine treachery, and on hearing it discussed openly the Greeks advanced their plan to destroy the Reich. It is only because of his foresight that the Reich still exists to this day.

    Ask yourselves, gentlemen, what contributions have you made to the Reich, aside from slandering her supporters and applauding her butchers?


  22. #52
    Tiberius/Fred/Mark/Isaak Member flyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    I should clarify my position. I do not care to blame either party for the war, or otherwise engage in historical discussion. What I take issue with is certain persons who bring up their own personal political and religious agendas at this time. Luther proposes that we conquer the entire Greek empire by 1500. Yes, we get it, he hates the Greeks. We've known that for a while now. What he fails to realize is that there may not even be a Reich by 1400, much less by 1500. He brings polarization into this body, when it is of critical importance that the soldiers of the Reich discuss in detail how we are to defend our homelands, which are still under great threat from all sides. I am interested in hearing that; I am not interested in hearing about how much Luther hates the Greeks.

    Well, I shall retire for the night. Hopefully, tomorrow we shall have soldiers discussing important military matters.
    Βασιλεοπατωρ Ισαακιος Κομνηνος
    Basileopator Isaakios Komnenos

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  23. #53
    Peter von Kastilien - RIP Member gibsonsg91921's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Peace, friends. A united Reich is a strong Reich.

    The newcomer Lukas Godwinson is correct. Welcome to the Franconian benches.

    While I am not a closet Lutheran and I believe strongly that the Greeks should be rid of in this world, we must consolidate our own borders before we make our rash vengeance.

    Many years ago, I did what I felt should be done and left Franconia with the intention of sacking Constantinople with my best friend Tancred von Tyrolia. I stand by the fact that what I did was necessary, but I admit I my actions have much consequence. Hopefully in this Diet session my rashness should be repaid in the blood of our foes.

    Not the blood of our friends. This next twenty years, we shall reclaim what was lost!

    Our enemies will tremble at the thunder of our cavalry and the blast of our trumpets!

    We shall be victorious!

    And then, we will conquer the Greeks!
    The late Emperor Peter von Kastilien the Tyrant, Lamm der Wahrheit.

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  24. #54
    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Alexander Luther:

    Squire Godwinson, you question the timing of the Charter Amendment proposed by myself and the Kaiser. You are not sure whether this Diet Session of 1340 is the proper moment to declare to the world that we are ready to strike back.

    Why not? Clearly, the first steps to putting the Greeks in their rightful place once and for all is taking back what was once ours. After the stunning victories wrought by Bavaria in recent months, the Byzantines are now holding a defensive position in Italy.

    The only way that these people would threaten the Reich's very existence now is if we let this line stand and allow them to reinforce themselves from their remaining Italian territories and Greece. Now, they are on the defensive. Why should we not begin the reconquest now?
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  25. #55
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Alexander Luther:

    *nodding to the scribes*

    Apologies for speaking twice in turn, but I request that on the official list of the proposed edicts and Amendments that Kaiser Elberhard's name be listed under "Proposed" for CA 14.4. He was just as much of an architect of it as I was.
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
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    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.


  26. #56
    Makedonios Ksanthopoulos Member Privateerkev's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Dieter just waits as everyone is yelling and insulting each other. He waits for a quiet moment and then raises his hand. When everyone turns and stares at the young man, Dieters asks plainly,

    CA 14.4 dictates that we must turn all loot from captured Byzantine settlements to the Pope.

    But... what if we need the money?


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  27. #57
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Elberhard: Let me clarify my position on CA14.4. I do second it. Alexander Luther approached me with a draft proposing simply the conquest of Byzantium. Like Lukas Godwinson, my first reaction was dismay at the prospect of extending and amplifying the current bloody war we are experiencing. Even to this day, I confess I will not be heart broken if the proposal fails. It is, in part, to provide an outlet for the energies of our many young Electors and if they are content with a more pacific Reich, then I - as an old man - will not send them off to war.

    However, you will note the extremely long deadline for this conquest. It need not interfere with the proper defence of the Reich or imply over-extending ourselves. Think on it - 1500 AD. You may almost consider it an aspiration.

    I insisted on a clause banning extermination of conquered cities, otherwise we would become no better than those damnable sons of whores. Indeed, it was Byzantine extermination of our major cities that convinced me of the need to remove once and for all the threat that they pose to the Reich.

    As to the requirement to donate all loot to the Papacy, that is to ensure that our new Greek subjects recognise that we act from the highest motives. We will not ransack their cities as freebooters and if some of generals are unable to restrain their men, the Reich will make full reparations to the Papacy for such dreadful acts.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    OOC: CA 14.4 is partly "something to do" - a sort of glorious achievement that we can work towards for the rest of the game. If the majority of people don't want it, that's fine by me. The no loot clause is partly to stop us blitzing the AI too easily. Sacking is extraordinarily lucrative and if we restore the Reich to 30+ provinces, we will already be rolling in cash.


    On another matter, I know I agreed to let the past be the past, but yet again I must challenge Fritz von Kastilien's absurd representation of history. He sees nothing, learns nothing and knows nothing. Jan von Hamburg was not crusading against Lutherans. In Swabia, Lutherans were only ever pawns in a secular struggle for power. I humbly suggest Fritz talk to his brother and fellow Lutheran Peter for a proper appreciation of the relation between Lutherism, the War of in Swabia and indeed another most grave matter that we have corresponded privately about.

    The War of Reformation was an unintended byproduct of a grab for power by men who used Luther's teachings for their own ends. The late Jan von Hamburg, like myself, need make no apologies for defending the rightful Duke of Swabia - any Duke alive today would rightly expect such support from all the Diet if a rebel tried to kill them and usurp their position. When it comes to defending the Charter from overthrow by force of arms, one cannot be neutral.

    Finally, I second Charter Amendment 14.3. Discussion has focussed on von Hapsburg's off the cuff opinions of the territorial coherence of Duchies, however, the amendment says nothing of that. It says that a Duke may be replaced if he loses the confidence of most of his Counts. I see some virtue in this. Consider, again, the Swabian civil war. The worst thing Hummel did was show that rebellion was possible - nay, not just possible but that a nobody could by force of arms march in and seize the Citadel of his Duke! Hopefully, Hummel's eventual fate - and that of von Dassel - will give would-be rebels pause for thought about the likely effect of rebellion on one's life expectancy. But the point remains - Electors may rebel and in rebelling gravely weaken the Reich.

    CA 14.3 provides an alternative way of settling grievances. I cannot pretend that - had CA 14.3 existed - I would have forced my brother to step down in favour of Hummel or von Dassel. However, it might have provided an opportunity to intercede and perhaps reach an understanding not unlike that which Duke Arnold negotiated with Count Becker. I see CA 14.3 as strengthening the Reich, not weakening it.

  28. #58
    Makedonios Ksanthopoulos Member Privateerkev's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Dieter gulps before speaking after the Kaiser,

    With all due respect my Kaiser, but the Reich is broke. And part of the reason why it is broke is because of the Byzantines. But they are not only our attackers, they are our neighbors. It is their settlements that are closest to some of our fronts.

    A clause to demand the handover of loot hamstrings us right when we need the money most! How else are we going to get out of a deficit? I understand the spirit of the CA and see some merit in it. But why limit ourselves when we basically need to go all out?

    If we are truly going to completely cut off a possible supply of money, I implore the Diet to think of some other way to make up the short-fall.

    But I say lets fund our rebuilding from the coffers of our enemies. I see a certain symmetry...

    But that's just my opinion sir...

    Fearing he said too much too forcefully, Dieter yields the floor and heads to that new tavern he keeps hearing about.
    Last edited by Privateerkev; 12-15-2007 at 10:53.


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  29. #59
    Chretien Saisset Senior Member OverKnight's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Matthias listens to the debate in the Diet. He is pleased at the Kaiser's endorsement, and smiles when Karl Zirn speaks. When Fritz von Kastilien mentions his torture, a hand unconsciously comes up to the patch covering his ruined socket. Taking notice, Matthias puts it back down. His expression grows grim at von Hapsburg's "The age of Crusaders has passed" comment.

    Rising, he addresses the Diet.


    I thank those of you who have spoken in support of the proposed revisions. As for the one person who has spoken against it.

    He fixes a one-eyed stare at Maximilian.

    It saddens me that you were named after the patron Saint of Outremer. I ask for no more men from Europe for Outremer. If a few young nobles wish to join my cause, I cannot stop them. As for soldiers, we are capable of recruiting what we need in Acre.

    I do not ask for special treatment for the Kingdom. All I ask from either candidate for Chancellor is a fighting chance. I understand that every part of the Reich faces challenges and resources are scarce. In fact in the battles I fought recently, I aimed to conserve my men, as I realize reinforcement may not come even with central authority restored.

    A detailed reading of the proposed revision will reveal that Outremer is only due one army as long as it remains under three territories. After that, it would be two, the same as the Duchies receive and as the Kingdom has been granted in the past.

    Matthias pauses.

    Speaking of new Crusaders, I am heartened to hear that Hugo de Cervole and Dieter von Essen wish to take the Cross. But I must add my own advice to that of my friend Karl. The journey is long, the outcome is uncertain and there may not be Counties or commands waiting for you when you land. I wish to make Andreas a Count, but I cannot as long as I have only Acre. I wish to give Andreas an army, but I cannot divide our forces just yet in face of the large Greek armies. Also, with regards to Swabia, one of her noblemen is already in my service, and I do not wish to deprive the Duchy of another General in these troubled times.

    I know such material things are of little concern when compared to the spiritual rewards of Crusading, but they should be considered. I would advise both of you to speak with your Dukes, consider their counsel and perhaps gain some battle experience before coming to Outremer. This is not a refusal, I will never turn away the faithful, but I do not have much to offer new arrivals just yet.

    If you do come, you have my gratitude, but consider yourselves forewarned.

    Matthias again pauses.

    As for some of the legislation that has been proposed. I find CA 14.3 an invitation to mob rule. Each House should be able to solve any problems internally. I might reconsider if majority was changed to a super-majority of two thirds.

    I agree with the spirit of CA 14.4, as I have good reason to hate the Greeks, but I find the terms of it too binding. The amendment will, in my opinion, require too much of a focus on them. The Reich has other enemies, we should leave ourselves the flexibility to deal with all of them. Also, the Church's financial standing is better than our own at this time. We will need florins to rebuild, and I believe this amendment requires too much money to go to the Pope. Again we should have flexibility in how we proceed in the future.

    I will state that any lost Imperial lands I reconquer will be occupied, not exterminated or sacked. I wish to liberate Antioch and Adana, not destroy them.

    Thank you my lords.
    Last edited by econ21; 12-15-2007 at 12:41.
    Chretien Saisset, Chevalier in the King of the Franks PBM

  30. #60
    King Philippe of France Senior Member _Tristan_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Imperial Diet VII

    Hugo von Holland stands and bows deeply at the Kaiser on hearing his name spoken aloud.

    Mon Empereur, I thank you for your welcoming speech.

    I take this opportunity to point out that I have received news from my network of agents still in that country.

    Our cities there are under threat and though I long to follow in the footsteps of my templar brothers and defend Outremer, I think that my skills would be put to better use in defending the Reich from the French.

    Bowing at Count Matthias Steffen, Hugo goes on.

    Thus, if Count Steffen allows, I will meet him in Outremer once the French threat has been dealt with.

    I know I'm not an Imperial Knight yet but I would request the command of a small force of men and lead them against the French General Roger de Mauchaut who my informers tell me is out in the open with men in his retinue. I have a personal revenge to take on that man and will in doing so further the interests of the Reich.

    I eagerly wait on your authorizing such a foray on French soil.

    Hugo then sits down, visibly content to have made this point.
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