Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 40

Thread: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

  1. #1
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ukraine
    Posts
    837

    Default shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Ships are universally known to be a very special kind of units: they disappear when the faction is reduced to the rebel status, you can't command them in a battle, you can't hire them as mercenaries or bribe them, you can't re-train, disband or ransome them or appoint their captains governors. I wonder if anything of these has been altered in mods? I mean it would be cool to take two cogs of your own, add a couple of hired baggalas, bribe a dozen of carracks and go buccaneering at will.

  2. #2
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Moral High Grounds
    Posts
    8,688

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Some of the ships have era/faction settings for mercenary status in the unit prod file, I don't build inns so I can't say I've ever seen a ship on offer though. With respect to the bribing/retraining, I'm guessing the problem is the sea region. You can't move a ship into a province for retraining, and you can't move agents onto sea regions to do their abilities.
    The .Org's MTW Reference Guide Wiki - now taking comments, corrections, suggestions, and submissions

    If I werent playing games Id be killing small animals at a higher rate than I am now - SFTS
    Si je n'étais pas jouer à des jeux que je serais mort de petits animaux à un taux plus élevé que je suis maintenant - Louis VI The Fat

    "Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur

  3. #3
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ukraine
    Posts
    837

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Quote Originally Posted by drone View Post
    Some of the ships have era/faction settings for mercenary status in the unit prod file, I don't build inns so I can't say I've ever seen a ship on offer though. With respect to the bribing/retraining, I'm guessing the problem is the sea region. You can't move a ship into a province for retraining, and you can't move agents onto sea regions to do their abilities.
    I build inns and hire the mercs pretty often but I never saw a ship wanting to be hired. As for bribing, you don't need to send the agent to a province to bribe the army, you just point him at the army from any neighboring province of yours and then you are asked for a confirmation of you desire to further corruption in alien countries. Why can't you do the same with a fleet dispatching your spy from an adjacent maritime province?

  4. #4

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    You need to understand from the start that ships are a special type of agent and don't really have much in common with army stacks.

    Ships function almost exactly like agents, have a specific mission and specific targets, with the same valour stat (called "command" for ships). Ships differ in their ability to be grouped and in their Range, Attack, Defence and Speed stats. The stats are fairly simple to understand - range should need no explanation - if a ship attacks, it uses it's attack stat, if it's being attacked it uses it's defence stat. If while being attacked, it moves to another province, it uses it's speed stat to determine it's chances of escaping. The last one is more useful to the AI as it sees your moves when you click "end turn" and can react to them... this all involves the usual seed number, "dice roll", with the "command" stat improving the chances, etc.

    Sea regions are like another set of land regions (provinces) in a completely different "zone" to the land regions. Nothing can access sea regions apart from ships - which only appear there via being produced from a shipwright in the adjoining province. Definitions in the startpos file determine which sea region is used for a particular coastal province to spawn it's ships. This is how ships get into the "sea zone" and there is no way for them to move out of it (it's hard-coded).

    There has been a lot of discussion in the past as to exactly how ship/fleet vs ship/fleet engagements work. We still don't know exactly, but due to the random nature of some battles (who hasn't lost a whole stack of Baggalas to a solitary Galley?), it's not clear exactly what stacks do or if stacks vs individuals are better.

    In most campaigns in the vanilla game I usually achieve naval superiority early on (far too early) by grouping ships in twos or threes (solitary ships are too tempting for the AI to attack and mean that in the event of a storm your shipping lanes are broken). When attacking I usually break the fleets into individual ships - grouping them back together the following year.

    All ships are specific to major or minor factions, so if you want "pirates" then you need to add FN_REBEL to the faction association column for the ships you want the pirates to use. I would advise against this as the AI is hopeless at shipping as it is and most AI factions will be at war with the rebel faction meaning they will have even more difficulty establishing trade routes.

    As for mercenaries, I've never tried it - nor mercenary agents for that matter... I doubt it would work - but perhaps try it.

  5. #5
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ukraine
    Posts
    837

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Quote Originally Posted by caravel View Post
    You need to understand from the start that ships are a special type of agent and don't really have much in common with army stacks.

    Ships function almost exactly like agents, have a specific mission and specific targets, with the same valour stat (called "command" for ships). Ships differ in their ability to be grouped and in their Range, Attack, Defence and Speed stats.
    Does it mean that they are unmoddable? So modding amounts to introducing new units, new factions and new provinces, does it not?

  6. #6
    VictorGB Member Trapped in Samsara's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Dystopia
    Posts
    192

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    ...you can't re-train, disband or ransome them...
    Hi Gilrandir

    I think you can disband ships.

    Best regards
    Victor

    Sapere aude
    Horace

    PS Will you be making an appearance in The Hobbit, which is due out shortly?

  7. #7
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Moral High Grounds
    Posts
    8,688

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Does it mean that they are unmoddable? So modding amounts to introducing new units, new factions and new provinces, does it not?
    Depends on what you mean by "unmoddable". You can't alter the skills/limitations of the "Ship" agent type, but you can create new ships or modify the stats and prereqs of existing ones.
    The .Org's MTW Reference Guide Wiki - now taking comments, corrections, suggestions, and submissions

    If I werent playing games Id be killing small animals at a higher rate than I am now - SFTS
    Si je n'étais pas jouer à des jeux que je serais mort de petits animaux à un taux plus élevé que je suis maintenant - Louis VI The Fat

    "Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur

  8. #8
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ukraine
    Posts
    837

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Quote Originally Posted by Trapped in Samsara View Post
    Hi Gilrandir

    I think you can disband ships.
    Well, it's been long since I played MTW so I'm not sure about this one. You may be right.
    It's about time to start a new campaign, me thinks. French in high, attempt 3.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trapped in Samsara View Post

    PS Will you be making an appearance in The Hobbit, which is due out shortly?
    You are getting it wrong. Do you think it's Orlando Bloom aka as Gilrandir who visits this forum now and then? But if you mean an appearance in a movie theater where it is going to be shown then with all likelihood I will. I only hope they haven't done anything nasty to the book. It is quite short, so I can't imagine how they might have extended the plot to make two movies out of it.

  9. #9
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ukraine
    Posts
    837

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Quote Originally Posted by drone View Post
    You can't alter the skills/limitations of the "Ship" agent type, but you can create new ships
    So, you can create new agents? Muslem princesses? Mendicant monks? Leprous beggars? Individual Holy Grail seekers? Peripatetic troubadours? Any other legendary characters who purport to have filled medieval roads? If so the campaign map can really become way too overcrowded.

  10. #10

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    There are set agent types with set abilities. You can create an agent called a "leprous beggar" and base it on the assassin, but it will still function as an assassin...

    Muslim princesses are kind of possible but you have to set a building up to train them as the game won't spawn them automatically. This is what I did with agents in my mod ( as far as I can remember ):

    1) Harem women (muslim princesses)

    2) Experimented with spies/assassins who spread heresy (you can change the faith propagation for all units and buildings)... (this was interesting as it forced the player to use bishops to counter it and made the abuse of spies more difficult - it was only a small percentage and I think churches/mosques were enough to reverse it).

    3) Invisible Papal Inquisitors (these were interesting because they removed the Inquisitor agents from the player and turned them papacy only - an unplayable AI only faction by default - thus making them more of an uncontrollable natural disaster - but more importantly because they're invisible counterspying keeps them under control - I can't remember how well it worked...).

    So you could have your "leprous beggar" spread heresy and add a support cost (alms), but he would still be an assassin or whatever agent you based him upon...

    //edit: The most versatile agent type is the "priest" types. With these you can create some rebel only pagan priests, rabbis, etc, to add flavour and a bit of randomness if nothing else.
    Last edited by caravel; 12-07-2012 at 16:08.

  11. #11
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Moral High Grounds
    Posts
    8,688

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    It is quite short, so I can't imagine how they might have extended the plot to make two movies out of it.
    They are making 3 movies out of it. I believe they are adding in the Necromancer (Sauron at Dol Gulder) plot line to pad it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir
    So, you can create new agents? Muslem princesses? Mendicant monks? Leprous beggars? Individual Holy Grail seekers? Peripatetic troubadours? Any other legendary characters who purport to have filled medieval roads? If so the campaign map can really become way too overcrowded.
    You can create new agents, but not agent types as these are hardcoded. So theoretically you could make a heretic priest that spreads heresy, but it would still need to be given an existing unit type name like BISHOP. You could create a ocean-going dreadnought with 3 range, 9 attack, 9 defense, 4 speed, but it would still be a SHIP unit type.

    Edit-> yeah, what caravel said.
    Last edited by drone; 12-07-2012 at 16:08. Reason: not fast enough...
    The .Org's MTW Reference Guide Wiki - now taking comments, corrections, suggestions, and submissions

    If I werent playing games Id be killing small animals at a higher rate than I am now - SFTS
    Si je n'étais pas jouer à des jeux que je serais mort de petits animaux à un taux plus élevé que je suis maintenant - Louis VI The Fat

    "Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur

  12. #12

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    I did mess with the faith propagation of buildings as well. I remember adding a heretical penalty to the brothels and taverns - increasing as the levels increased. The idea was that the happiness bonus would offset it somewhat as would the effect of the church - I also liked the idea of a province with the highest level tavern and brothel turning into a hive of vice and villainy meaning that large garrisons would be needed to keep it in check. The main reasoning behind this was that though a campaign starts with religious diversity, it's often easy enough for the player to convert provinces and ensure they stay converted. In the end it was all too complex and the AI was oblivious to it all - since then I've erred on the side of simplification rather than adding more toys and complex features which only the player can exploit...

    If I had some spare time (and enough drank) I'd create an invisible, rebel faction only, "heretical pervert"... if only just to read "a heretical pervert has been caught and executed" every once in a while...

  13. #13
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Moral High Grounds
    Posts
    8,688

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Just curious, have you tried putting negative numbers in for the faith/zeal propagation for buildings or agents?
    The .Org's MTW Reference Guide Wiki - now taking comments, corrections, suggestions, and submissions

    If I werent playing games Id be killing small animals at a higher rate than I am now - SFTS
    Si je n'étais pas jouer à des jeux que je serais mort de petits animaux à un taux plus élevé que je suis maintenant - Louis VI The Fat

    "Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur

  14. #14

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Haven't tried it as far as I can remember. When you consider that zeal/faith is a percentage thing, I'm not entirely sure what a negative value would do. When a Catholic Bishop is in a province which is 10% Catholic, 80% Orthodox 5% Muslim and 5% Pagan, he's slowly but surely turning the 90% of Orthodox/Muslim/Pagan to Catholic. If it's negative, then he's turning Catholics into what? Without even testing it I'd say that negative numbers would do the same as zero... but it needs to be tested (though if you delve through the archives perhaps someone has).

  15. #15
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Moral High Grounds
    Posts
    8,688

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Maybe a negative faith value would just decrease other existing bonuses down towards zero. I was mainly thinking about zeal though, your brothel/tavern idea might work better reducing zeal than increasing heresy.

    edit-> of course, you can't affect zeal with buildings...
    Last edited by drone; 12-07-2012 at 17:13. Reason: i'm an idiot
    The .Org's MTW Reference Guide Wiki - now taking comments, corrections, suggestions, and submissions

    If I werent playing games Id be killing small animals at a higher rate than I am now - SFTS
    Si je n'étais pas jouer à des jeux que je serais mort de petits animaux à un taux plus élevé que je suis maintenant - Louis VI The Fat

    "Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur

  16. #16
    Member Member LordK9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Eastern Washington, USA
    Posts
    141

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    This being a historical (sort of) game, that the beliefs of the times should be at least (and maybe they were) considered. Not sure about the Catholic belief on drinking then but prostitutes were considered good thing and thought to make marriages happier so negative zeal or the increased crime may not be historically realistic. I think the religion against drinking thing was more of a Anabaptist/fundamentalist thing starting during the reformation.

  17. #17
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ukraine
    Posts
    837

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Quote Originally Posted by caravel View Post
    If I had some spare time (and enough drank) I'd create an invisible, rebel faction only, "heretical pervert"... if only just to read "a heretical pervert has been caught and executed" every once in a while...
    I wonder what methods of execution would be used? Would the powers-that-be stick to the old eye for eye approach to punish the perverts?

  18. #18

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Quote Originally Posted by drone View Post
    Maybe a negative faith value would just decrease other existing bonuses down towards zero. I was mainly thinking about zeal though, your brothel/tavern idea might work better reducing zeal than increasing heresy.

    edit-> of course, you can't affect zeal with buildings...
    On occasions you get that anomaly where a province is e.g. 99% orthodox and 1% nothing... I saw that recently. In that case it did eventually go to 100%, but not through normal conversion. As I recall the GH invaded (it was Kiev) and then I forgot all about it, but when I checked again some time after retaking the province it was back to 100%.

    So it's either some bug or it may prove that negative faith could work... It may also be that it's a fraction and thus cannot be represented (e.g. 99.9% Orthodox and 0.1% Pagan)... or it may be that it's the result of a bug which has left 1% without any faith and that priests and religious buildings cannot convert those who are of no faith (this makes sense if you think about it) - but something does correct it - possibly the change in ownership of the province.

    In STW there was only one faith - Christianity - and priests and churches would propagate it. Emissaries and Buddhist temples would impact it negatively, so they probably used a negative value. So it would be interesting to see if in MTW a province could be e.g. 90% catholic and 10% nothing - if the same code from Shogun still remains.

  19. #19

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Quote Originally Posted by LordK9 View Post
    This being a historical (sort of) game, that the beliefs of the times should be at least (and maybe they were) considered. Not sure about the Catholic belief on drinking then but prostitutes were considered good thing and thought to make marriages happier so negative zeal or the increased crime may not be historically realistic. I think the religion against drinking thing was more of a Anabaptist/fundamentalist thing starting during the reformation.
    You may well be correct about that, but it's not really a historical game, but loosely historically based. Increased crime from the tavern or brothel is "realistic" within the parameters of the game itself. In game terms there are a few ways of representing this:

    1) So called "Negative Income" - i.e. money lost to corruption and crime
    2) Propagate heresy - i.e. people are less interested in religion - not keeping to the scriptures, etc, etc.

    Negative provincial loyalty would not work well, as the brothel line already give a bonus from the first level due to the "entertainment effect". It could be applied to the tavern but then they'd just negate each other, due to how their tech trees are tied together.

    The scum of the earth, hang out at both establishments, so I would say it's entirely feasible to have a small trickle of both heresy and a negative income for both, or e.g. heresy for the tavern and negative income from the brothel (i.e. corrupt officials. It's interesting as it's a "trade off" scenario.

  20. #20
    Member Member LordK9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Eastern Washington, USA
    Posts
    141

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    RE:

    You may well be correct about that, but it's not really a historical game, but loosely historically based

    Yeah, that's what I mean by "sort of"

  21. #21

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Quote Originally Posted by LordK9 View Post
    This being a historical (sort of) game, that the beliefs of the times should be at least (and maybe they were) considered. Not sure about the Catholic belief on drinking then but prostitutes were considered good thing and thought to make marriages happier so negative zeal or the increased crime may not be historically realistic. I think the religion against drinking thing was more of a Anabaptist/fundamentalist thing starting during the reformation.
    AFAIK the Catholic church considered all sex outside of marrage sinful, including prostitution. They did, however, consider going to a prostitute better than seducing (or raping) a nice Catholic girl or a married woman, so prostitution was often tolerated, and even used as a means of church revenue. (The Bishop of Winchester owned brothels.) It seems pretty wierd from our point of view, but made some kind of logical sense in terms of the assumptions made at the time.

    AFAIK, drinking was not considered a problem, but drinking excessively was.

    Still, if you want to talk history, I see no reason to link brothels and taverns with heresy. In fact, the Cathar "heresy" (which emphasized purity) might have objected to taverns and brothels more than the Catholic church did. Brothels and taverns as a means to stamp out heresy? :)
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

  22. #22
    Member Member Plato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Magnesia
    Posts
    34

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    It also depends what sort of brothel is being represented. English bagnios were bath-houses and so played a useful role in sanitation. However, cleanliness wasn't necessarily next to godliness.

    Quote Originally Posted by caravel View Post
    I also liked the idea of a province with the highest level tavern and brothel turning into a hive of vice and villainy meaning that large garrisons would be needed to keep it in check.
    I'd have thought that's more likely to provide a steady stream of customers to both establishments.

    I do concur with you that high-level establishments should have a negative impact on income - a few well-placed bribes will mean the competition gets taken down a few pegs.

  23. #23

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    It's a game...


  24. #24

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Quote Originally Posted by caravel View Post
    It's a game...

    How dare you? Its a way of life, a love interest and probably a religion as well. Also, when history and MTW disagree, you may take it for granted that the historians have erred.

    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

    Member thankful for this post:



  25. #25
    Member Member Axalon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Sverige
    Posts
    662

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Quote Originally Posted by caravel View Post
    It's a game...

    As if Plato (or anybody else) did not know its a game...

    - A
    Last edited by drone; 12-14-2012 at 01:57. Reason: clean up, aisle 6

  26. #26

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Last edited by drone; 12-13-2012 at 17:43. Reason: now, now

  27. #27
    VictorGB Member Trapped in Samsara's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Dystopia
    Posts
    192

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Hi All

    I nominate Drone as the next UN secretary-general when Ban Ki-moon decides he's had enough.

    Who will second this motion?

    Best regards
    Victor

    Sapere aude
    Horace

  28. #28

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    I beg to differ - the UN don't take sides...
    Last edited by drone; 12-13-2012 at 22:50.

  29. #29
    Member Member LordK9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Eastern Washington, USA
    Posts
    141

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Quote Originally Posted by caravel View Post
    Good answer (now I don't have to reply to Axalon about missing the point).

  30. #30
    VictorGB Member Trapped in Samsara's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Dystopia
    Posts
    192

    Default Re: shipwright or shipwrong: mod 'em if you can

    Quote Originally Posted by caravel View Post
    I beg to differ - the UN don't take sides...
    Last edited by drone; Yesterday at 22:50.

    Hi

    Damn but it's frustrating not being allowed to see all the punches being thrown here.

    Drone
    Couldn't you 'put your telescope to your blind eye'? Please.

    Beast regards
    Victor

    Sapere aude
    Horace

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •