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Thread: Teachers say no-one should 'fail'

  1. #1
    For England and St.George Senior Member ShadesWolf's Avatar
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    Default Teachers say no-one should 'fail'

    I have actually found something I agree with the government on.....

    Education Secretary Ruth Kelly has dismissed suggestions that the concept of "failure" should be removed from school in favour of "deferred success".
    She said she gave the idea - which will be discussed at a teachers' conference - "nought out of 10".

    The Professional Association of Teachers will be told at its meeting next week that the label of failure could undermine pupils' enthusiasm.

    Delegates will also hear a condemnation of the phrase "happy slapping".

    The term is used to describe bullying where assaults are filmed on mobile phones.

    Liz Beattie, a retired teacher, will call on the association's annual gathering in Buxton, Derbyshire, to "delete the word 'fail' from the educational vocabulary to be replaced with the concept of 'deferred success'".

    Demolish

    She argues that repeated failure, such as in exams, can damage pupils' interest in learning.

    She told the Today programme on BBC Radio Four she had deliberately made the motion provocative to spark a good debate, but said it reflected the way the education system was developing.

    "We have made so much development in recent years in making examinations more flexible, doing them in modules so you can concentrate on different parts of them at different times," she said.

    "What happens when an exam is failed but, for example, three-quarters of it is perfectly satisfactorily done? It should be possible to do the other bits as add-ons afterwards and to defer the success of the exam."

    Wesley Paxton, a member of the association's council, is supporting the motion.

    "Elsewhere we applaud those who persevere, like marathon contestants who take days to complete. It's time we made the word 'fail' redundant and replaced it with 'please do a bit more'," he said.

    Education Secretary Ruth Kelly told the Today programme on BBC Radio Four: "For that particular proposal, I think I might give them nought out of 10.

    "It's really important for young people to grow up with the ability to get on and achieve, but also to find out what failure is.

    "When young people grow up and enter the adult world they have to deal with success and failure, and education is about creating well-rounded young people who can deal with these sorts of situations."

    The association, one of the smaller organisations for teachers, will also hear a call to block the use of the term "happy slapping" - when the attacks recorded on phones should be labelled as either an assault or bullying.

    And there will be a call for "the producers of children's programmes to consider and address the presentation, language and diction of those programmes".
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Teachers say no-one should 'fail'

    see the "Are we raising a nation of wimps ?" thread for related material.
    As far as removing "fail" goes, I say it's just plain stupid. It diminishes the kids' interest in learning ?? Surely they didn't fail because they had a lot of interest in learning to begin with ...
    And besides, why on earth does everybody assume kids have to _enjoy_ school ?
    I never did, and did a pretty good job. And since when are kids so damn sensitive ??
    I'm sure the 14-year-olds' that smoke and do pot and bully others would be highly affected by being told that they failed an exam, and it would certainly stunt their self-esteem and capacity for becoming an esteemed pillar of the community...
    Therapy helps, but screaming obscenities is cheaper.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Teachers say no-one should 'fail'

    Western society is systematically eliminating the concept personal responsibility. Nothing is ever anyone's fault and feelings come before results and productivity.

  4. #4
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teachers say no-one should 'fail'

    I was hurt so badly when I failed,
    it made me to learn it again!!!!
    no really, most fail because they did'nt do their best so it's their own bloody fault!
    what kind of person will you get if they never have to bare the consequences. I'll tell you he'll do whatever he wants, then once grown up he can't handle it and will be a major pain in the ass and you'll not be able to change that anymore. it wouldn't even be it's own fault he's like that, a kid learns and gets prepared by this.
    note: I'm going to school myself.

    Edit: I must say I really agree with PJ
    btw: love your sig Blodrast.
    Last edited by Moros; 07-22-2005 at 20:57.

  5. #5
    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teachers say no-one should 'fail'

    Thanks PazerJager. You're right. But where does the idea of ‘it is societies fault’ come from?

    But more to the point, sure, I was a smart kid in school. It took until college for me to fail at anything academic. But what is wrong with some people just being dumb? Some people are born stupid. Some people are born smart. The stupid work at Dillons/Wal-Mart/McDonalds for their whole lives, and are happy. The smart go to college and then become ‘skilled’. Both types of people are needed. Telling someone they failed is a statement of fact.

    I failed in my project for my job. Am I happy about it? No. My boss understands and he does not mind. But I’m not going to sue him because he destroyed my self-esteem.

    Maybe I am hardened by high-school and the crap I went through. Maybe I’m not in touch with my feelings. But when exactly did that become the most important thing for a man to aspire to? What about knowledge, wealth, happiness? Why must I care what other people feel? I may care what some other people think, but I don’t give a rats-a** what most anyone feels. The only feelings I care about are those of my friends and loved ones.

    Azi
    "If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse."
    Mark Twain 1881

  6. #6

    Default Re: Teachers say no-one should 'fail'

    Well, I think Panzer has a point saying it is "society's fault", even though it may not be 100% accurate - but I can't think of a better way to express it either.
    If not 'society's fault', then whose fault is it exactly ? (I'm not arguing, it's an honest question)
    And what I think would be interesting to try and figure out is, why is this happening ? What is the real reason why the various people in authority and related to this are going down this path ? Mind you, I'm not talking some conspiracy theory here - not in the least; I'd like to know some real explanation or justification of the reasons why this is happening. Why now ? What has changed, or what has been discovered, that makes _this_ the better way ? Why (if at all) did they (who's they, anyway ?) come to the conclusion that the "older" ways (i.e., 10 and 20 years ago, and before that), are no longer good enough, or are wrong altogether ?

    I'd sure like to know the answers to some of these, because I'd sure like to know how my kid is treated in school, and what kind of mentality is going to be promoted in the place where he/she is supposed to get an education...

    edited for clarity...
    Therapy helps, but screaming obscenities is cheaper.

  7. #7
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Post Re: Teachers say no-one should 'fail'

    The university I went to had a 65% graduation rate (65% of students eventually graduated). I can only imagine how emotional scarred some of these "deferred success" children would be after going through that meat grinder. It was tough enough as is, students that coasted with A's in high school had to actually work for the grades, and there were a few suicides. I "survived", and am a better person for it.

    How are universities and employers supposed to determine who has the right qualifications if the grading system is watered down? I have to interview new grads for jobs at my company, and it seems like even the universities are dumbing down. This seems like a good way to end meritocracy and head straight into communism. If you get the same reward no matter how well you do, you eliminate competition and the desire to do well, and that's communism.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Teachers say no-one should 'fail'

    OT: hey, drone, you didn't by any chance go to GMU ? asking because Fairfax, VA appears in your location.
    /OT

    edit: English must be my 72nd language... 'cause I sure as hell can't write it properly. My English teachers must be cringing their teeth into a fine powder and rolling around in their graves... if they're dead, that is. Or buried, anyway.
    Last edited by Blodrast; 07-22-2005 at 23:37.
    Therapy helps, but screaming obscenities is cheaper.

  9. #9
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Post Re: Teachers say no-one should 'fail'

    Quote Originally Posted by Blodrast
    hey, drone, you didn't by any chance went to GMU ? asking because Fairfax, VA appears in your location.
    Nope, I'm just another DC-area migrant. I grew up in Atlanta, went to Georgia Tech. I work with a bunch of GMU grads though.
    The .Org's MTW Reference Guide Wiki - now taking comments, corrections, suggestions, and submissions

    If I werent playing games Id be killing small animals at a higher rate than I am now - SFTS
    Si je n'étais pas jouer à des jeux que je serais mort de petits animaux à un taux plus élevé que je suis maintenant - Louis VI The Fat

    "Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur

  10. #10
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teachers say no-one should 'fail'

    This is why Asia will catch up with western nation in a few generations....

  11. #11
    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teachers say no-one should 'fail'

    In what exactly bmolsson?

    Azi
    "If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse."
    Mark Twain 1881

  12. #12
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teachers say no-one should 'fail'

    Quote Originally Posted by Azi Tohak
    In what exactly bmolsson?

    Azi
    The competitive attitude.....

  13. #13
    Member Member Efrem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teachers say no-one should 'fail'

    China's competitive attitude is rediculous, they don't actually learn anything just study meanlingless figures till the know it off by heart.
    Viva La Rasa!!!

  14. #14
    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teachers say no-one should 'fail'

    Not allowing for failure will only teach student that is not ok to fail. People should fail and have some humble pie now n then. And when you fail it should br called fail. Its not the end of the world. All Ambitious ppl have found a few or a lot doors closed before they made it.

    I come from Greece and its bad there too. In elementary school kids CANNOT fail. Really...if you just write your name in an exam you get 5/10 and pass. Nothing destroys a students enthusiasm more than that since, you know for a fact, that no matter how much you try, there will be someone going' why should I try? I ll pass anyway'. Needless to say these people later usually become Civil Servants ( Its almost the same there, you CANNOT be fired )
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    Narcissist Member Zalmoxis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teachers say no-one should 'fail'

    Parents will do this because they need to blame something for their "deffered succes" in teaching ther children morals, while teachers do it because sometimes they just don't teach kids, but now they just have a lot of free time in the summer...
    "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." - John Kenneth Galbraith

  16. #16

    Default Re: Teachers say no-one should 'fail'

    Maybe we need to scare the kids into trying. I remember in the fourth grade no one would do anything. the police station wasn't far away so the teacher had a cop come yell and threaten us unless we behaved better....... it was kind of cruel but it worked.
    Formerly ceasar010

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    Floating through the net... Member King Edward's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teachers say no-one should 'fail'

    Victory is empty, their are lessons in defeat.

    Bonus point for the song those lyrics are from.

    It makes a serious point, by failing at something you can learn a hell of a lot more than being mollycoddled until you get it right. Life is hard, part of being a kid is learning to deal with the hardships you will face as an adult, and many hardships you will face alone there will be no 'deffered success' on these issues.
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  18. #18
    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teachers say no-one should 'fail'

    Check out the Can America Compete thread and article for an example of how this coddling is going to hammer us.

    Azi
    "If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse."
    Mark Twain 1881

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