Kingdoms SecuRom discussion - forum rules only

[Zenicetus]

A quote from the closed thread:

I'm afraid that this topic is running very close to the line on our piracy rules here at the .org; considering the purpose of this topic was purely informative, I think it's best to slap a lock on it now, before someone posts something that we'll both regret

Personally, I doubt SecuRom's a big issue, anyway - it certainly won't effect my decision to buy the game or not...

Sapi, I don't care if you "doubt it's a big issue anyway". Some of us potential purchasers do care about that. So here's a thread to discuss the issue, and I'm asking that everyone avoid mentioning cracks and just stick to the official release by CA and what it entails.

If this thread is closed just because we want to discuss it, with no overt cracks mentioned, then I will definitely not be buying the Kingdoms expansion, and I'll be spreading that recommendation far and wide across the 'Net. I've enjoyed the CA games and I've tried to contribute to the forums here, but this is getting a wee bit Draconian, when we can't even discuss onerous copy protection as paying customers!

Now, the first question I have is whether or not CA plans to release a tool to remove the hidden SecureRom key after I uninstall the game? Does anyone have any information about that?

[sapi]

Stay away from discussing cracks, as happened in the other thread, and this'll be fine...

Our rules on that are quite clear, however, and aren't something that I can change, or bend...

[Tafferboy]

Now, the first question I have is whether or not CA plans to release a tool to remove the hidden SecureRom key after I uninstall the game? Does anyone have any information about that?

I seriously doubt it. I do know that if Sega/CA feel the dent in their wallets because lots of people boycott the game for its Securom, only then would they seriously consider releasing a removal tool/patch. Once they hit their anticipated sales profit from the game, it's highly unlikely they would release a Securom patch out of goodwill alone and very likely the next TW game comes with the same or worse copyright protection. Vote with your money if you want Sega to know they are not getting away putting invasive protection on their games and that you don't appreciate being treated like pirates. Sorry, CA, I love this series, but I am telling my friends not to get this game until something is done about Securom.

Link to original thread: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=90934

[AussieGiant]

Hasn't it already been cracked??

I mean, what is the point really?

[Heinrich VI]

i have already bought the game even paid 17€ more to get my hands on a us import version. until reading the now closed topic i wasnt even aware that my computer is now infected with securom...

while everything might work as usual and i had no problems playing kingdoms so far (and i use AVG!) i agree with zenicetus. i strongly dislike this bad habit of telling the customer (me) what kind of software i am allowed to run (daemon tools = the devil) by sneaking a trojan horse into my machine.

that said i wouldnt go so far to boycott kingdoms because of this. leaving aside that sega/ca already have my money its mostly the publishers fault and i just love tw games too much to not buy them immediately upon release! ;)

just and remove securom with:

winhex - brutal and risky
killbox - thats what i have used
unlocker
...

back to conquering britannia!

[MStumm]

Yes it's cracked already (although I didn't actually try using the crack).

More importantly I don't see a clear confirmation of SecuRom 7. The guy in the original post doesn't inspire much confidence in me. So if anyone has actual proof they should post it here.

Also there seems to be a general misunderstanding about the whole issue. Some people see "hidden" registry entries and go omg CA uses SecuRom, my computer is screwed. The real thread lies in the UAService7, that is allegedly being used to get ring 3 privileges from a non-administrative account. For XP users I guess it's not a big deal since it runs under administrative account by default and most people don't bother to change that. The threat lies in the ability of malicious programs to exploit the service and get administrative privileges. This threat exists for all system services, but if Microsoft can't sort out all their security issues, how can we trust Securom developer (is it Sony?) to do better, given that the program is not even removed properly after we are done with the game?

[Tafferboy]

More importantly I don't see a clear confirmation of SecuRom 7. The guy in the original post doesn't inspire much confidence in me. So if anyone has actual proof they should post it here.

Completely understandable. Low post count in forums generally correlates negatively with a member's perceived credibility, and vice versa. But I have no reason to lie about something like this if the game's copy protection is just a simple disc check. Maybe someone will back me up on what I said about Kingdoms using Securom v7, but if you want to find out yourself:
1. Install Kingdoms
2. Run RootkitRevealer. It should list a registry entry "hkey_current_user\software\securom\!CAUTION! NEVER ...."
3. Check timestamp to see that it coincides with installation of Kingdoms. (If it does not match and is an earlier time, Securom v7 had already been installed by another game that uses it e.g., NWN2, Bioshock, Overlord)
4. Open registry editor and you find you can't remove the entry.

Posting the address of a certain site offering cracks is against the rules, but you will see it lists the protection used by Kingdoms as Securom v7 and the original M2TW as Safedisc v4.

[Stig]

If it would be so bad and evil, why would companies be using it?

I think it's all blown up.

[Didz]

HANG ON!

Can someone post a link to this other thread for me? (NVM: just noticed that Tafferboy gives the link)

I have no idea what SecuRom is, but it doesn't sound good, and havng just received my two copies of Kingdoms from Play yesterday I want to know before I install them on my PC's.

(I may just send them back, which will be damned annoying)

[sapi]

It's a copy/piracy prevention system (wiki)

[R'as al Ghul]

From Wikipedia on SecuRom_v7

SecuROM v 7.x

Latest SecuROM Versions are all 7.x versions which are released and updated continuously.
SecuROM 7.x, if run under a non-admin user account, installs its own service called UAService7.exe — (ring 3), which works in ring 3 of the computer's operating system.
Securom has said: "it has been developed to enable users without Windows™ administrator rights the ability to access all SecuROM™ features"[1]

Known problems

* The version of SecuROM that comes with Armed Assault, S.T.A.L.K.E.R (European release only), Neverwinter Nights 2, Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars (patched to v1.04), Tomb Raider Anniversary (demo and full version), Overlord and Bioshock (demo and full version) prevents the game from running at all if Process Explorer, a free tool offered by Microsoft, has been run since the previous reboot, however a workaround for this Process Explorer v10.xx bug (v9.25 is not affected) can be found here[2].

* Certain games installed using SecuROM will prevent other select games from working correctly, and will continue to do so even after game is uninstalled.[citation needed]

BioShock game and Rootkit controversy

BioShock has been incorrectly accused of installing a Rootkit, as Securom is not a rootkit. An official announcement was even made stating that no rootkit is installed[3]. Users unfamiliar with computer security have taken to use a Microsoft tool known as RootkitRevealer, which flags issues on a computer that indicate areas needing additional scrutiny. Further scrutiny indicates that this flag was raised improperly on account of a null byte in a string of characters (a perfectly legal piece of data) being found in a registry entry. Null bytes in value strings are improperly interpreted by common registry visualization tools (RegEdit) as end-of-string characters; such tools then fail to display the whole string. This is a limitation of those tools, and not a problem in itself.

Bioshock/SecuROM also accesses the internet and attempts to bypass firewall permissions at some point during its installation, and installs files in a hidden directory[4] that cannot easily be deleted [5]. Users have stated that in order to install the game, their firewalls and antivirus programs needed to to be turned off and active virus monitoring services needed to be shut down with XP restarted with these programs and services properly disabled.[6]

...

[Stig]

Users have stated that in order to install the game, their firewalls and antivirus programs needed to to be turned off and active virus monitoring services needed to be shut down with XP restarted with these programs and services properly disabled.

From what I heard on .com loads of people didn't have problems installing, so this is not a real issue.

[Darkarbiter]

Stay away from discussing cracks, as happened in the other thread, and this'll be fine...

Our rules on that are quite clear, however, and aren't something that I can change, or bend...

Hasn't it already been cracked??

I mean, what is the point really?

[Didz]

OMG! I've just read through some of this stuff on SecuRom, including their official website.

Isn't it illegal to secretly instal software on equipment owned by another person?

I thought that was the very basis on which the law prosecuted hackers and virus writers?

Why would that law not apply to a commercial enterprise that hacks my system?

Having never in my life downloaded pirated software or films, I am now in the ironic situation of seriously contemplating just that in order to be able to play this game without compromising my system, as it seems to me that even if SecuRom's motives are honourable the fact that it exists on my PC means it can be exploited by others with less honourable intentions.

[Swiss Halberd Pike Landsknecht]

btw

am I right in saying that M2TW (main game) doesn't have any Securom?

I've only had the demo, but in a few days will buy the full version

[sapi]

OMG! I've just read through some of this stuff on SecuRom, including their official website.

Isn't it illegal to secretly instal software on equipment owned by another person?

I thought that was the very basis on which the law prosecuted hackers and virus writers?

Why would that law not apply to a commercial enterprise that hacks my system?

Having never in my life downloaded pirated software or films, I am now in the ironic situation of seriously contemplating just that in order to be able to play this game without compromising my system, as it seems to me that even if SecuRom's motives are honourable the fact that it exists on my PC means it can be exploited by others with less honourable intentions.

I suspect there's a clause in the EULA which indicates what Securom is installing (and which, by clicking 'okay' to, you are accepting and waiving your right to challenge).

btw

am I right in saying that M2TW (main game) doesn't have any Securom?

I've only had the demo, but in a few days will buy the full version

M2TW uses Safedisc v4, iirc - I haven't heard of any complaints about it.

[FactionHeir]

Kingdoms has SecuROM, M2TW has SafeDisc.
Using (illegal) methods to bypass SecuROM checks will still not get rid of the entry, as this is (as far as I understand) installed during the game's actual installation, so merely installing the game will create said entries.

As for someone exploiting SecuROM entries, you wouldn't be able to sue SEGA or CA for it, according to the M2TW EULA.

In no event shall Sega or its licensors be liable for special, incidental, or consequential damages resulting from possession, use or malfunction of the Game Software, including without limitation the risks connected with lost profit, damage to property, lost data, loss of goodwill, console, computer or handheld device failure, errors and lost business or other information as a result of possession, use or malfunction of the Game Software, or personal injuries, even if Sega has been advised of the possibility of such loss or damages.

As SecuROM supposedly would be part of "Game Software".

I do agree with the person who posted in the earlier topic, that corporations should reward good behavior instead of punish bad behavior.
Afterall, if they were to include a great, illustrated, colored and detailed manual as well as say some bonus material like figurines, fancy CD packaging or cloth maps, there would be more incentive to buy the game.

[Swiss Halberd Pike Landsknecht]

ah OK

I was looking again at a trailer for Kingdoms, and just feel upset that I might not be able to use those new units, i.e byzantine flamer thrower troops, if I can't get the expansion due to the securom

[barvaz]

As for someone exploiting SecuROM entries, you wouldn't be able to sue SEGA or CA for it, according to the M2TW EULA.
...
As SecuROM supposedly would be part of "Game Software".

Well, I don't know about EULA's. Software vendors tend to put loads of crap in there of which half probably will not pass any sane court.

I am pretty sure that if you can prove that an intrusive software that was installed on your computer caused you real damages and you can clearly show what was the damages made, a stupid one-click agreement that no one ever reads won't convince a judge with half a brain that everything is alright.

Software vendors can put anything they like in those EULA's (and they often do) there got to be some line drawn to what these EULA's entitle them to. What about sending your credit card and then wiping your hard drive? That is allowed according to some EULA's

On the other hand, I can put a softwarevendorlicenseagreement.txt in the root of my c: drive saying that by installing software on this computer, the computer owner (me) is granted the permission to bypass any copyright protection and send the software to any of my friends...

- barvaz

[sapi]

Well, feel free to take it up in court - I can't see the expense being worth it, though

[madalchemist]

Maybe sapi is right.

I'll simply avoid to buy and play Kingdoms.

[alpaca]

SecuROM will most likely not stop you from being able to play the game. It can happen in rare cases, though.

Anyways, this is the wikipedia short definition of a rootkit:

A rootkit is a general description of a set of programs which work to subvert control of an operating system from its legitimate operators. Usually, a rootkit will obscure its installation and attempt to prevent its removal through a subversion of standard system security.

Looking at what SecuROM does: Installing without you noticing, stopping you from removing it, it exactly fits the bill and is a rootkit in itself even if it might not necessarily mean any direct or immediate harm to your system, the breach of integrity can already be seen as abusive behaviour. I actually wonder if one should sue computer game companies because of this and if I had enough money I probably would try it (the German courts are a bit more on the side of people's rights than e.g. the US ones)

As for EULAs: I completely agree, it's the same case as the disclaimers that a lot of sites used to put up that they're not responsible for content of links. They are, as has been ruled by courts from different countries (although there may be some where they aren't). So writing any ape**** in the EULA doesn't help. I could even argue that a one-click agreement is no binding contract if the content of said would-be contract is 90% useless junk.

FactionHeir: Very good point, I totally agree. Instead of buying a copy protection, SEGA should invest the money into a good manual and high-quality packaging. That'd be more of an incentive to buy the game. I guess a SecuROM license costs well more than 100,000 dollars.


Besides, the worrying tendency of only being able to install your game on one machine that came up with BioShock is actively driving me crazy. This alone is enough reason for me to not buy the game (because my computer won't be able to handle it very well anyways, so why bother). If I buy the game I should have the right to play it on more than one machine, or with a few friends. If they like it, they'll buy it afterwards. If they never get to try it they won't buy it at all, it's that simple.

[Daveybaby]

Besides, the worrying tendency of only being able to install your game on one machine that came up with BioShock is actively driving me crazy. This alone is enough reason for me to not buy the game (because my computer won't be able to handle it very well anyways, so why bother). If I buy the game I should have the right to play it on more than one machine, or with a few friends. If they like it, they'll buy it afterwards. If they never get to try it they won't buy it at all, it's that simple.

Its not so much that, as the fact that if you upgrade your hardware (e.g. new mobo or new HDD), or buy a new machine, that counts as one of your installs. In theory, if you uninstall the game from the previous machine first, it's supposed to give you that install back. However, people have been testing this and finding that it doesnt work. Also, if you suffer a HDD crash, you arent going to be able to uninstall the previous copy first anyway.

Apparently due to customer complaints the publishers of bioshock have extended the total number of installs from 2 to 5. Big deal.

Publisher: "Thanks for buying our game, now we're going to count to 10, and then kick you in the balls"
Customer: "Can i have my money back please?"
Publisher: "Since we value you as a customer, we are happy to announce that we are going to wait until we have counted to 20 before kicking you in the balls"
Customer: "Um.... thanks?"

I am getting slightly off-topic, admittedly, since this limitation doesnt (as far as i know) apply to kingdoms. But its a very worrying trend. Maybe by the time empires is released that sort of thing will be the norm.

[Tafferboy]

Publishers should really be compelled by law to provide information on the kind of copy protection (and if there are limited installs, as in Bioshock) they are using on their software, at least in print on the box itself. Customers have the right to know first-hand if a product is going to be bundled with intrusive software, not learn about it themselves the hard way or on a forum.

In short, if people's decision on whether to purchase a game is at all influenced by the copy protection it uses, I think publishers owe it to us to convey that information clearly. I myself will not knowingly buy any game using Starforce and Securom v7 no matter if it's the best ever, so my decision very well hinges on type of copy protection alone.

That said, I'm not hopeful at all on Sega or CA releasing a patch to remove Securom from Kingdoms. Unless a whole lot of people are refusing to buy the game because of Securom, I don't see that happening. Not many even know Kingdoms is using Securom in the first place or would care if they did.

[Dutch_guy]

But basically the only thing this SecuRom does is add some not important line to your registry, and make sure you can only install the game an x number of times? Giving you back an install, if one un-installs the game ?

If that's all it is, what's the big deal really ?

[King Bob VI]

But basically the only thing this SecuRom does is add some not important line to your registry, and make sure you can only install the game an x number of times? Giving you back an install, if one un-installs the game ?

If that's all it is, what's the big deal really ?

That's only for Bioshock, Kingdoms doesn't have an install limit, as far as I know.

So it's even less of a big deal, unless someone can provide proof of Securom itself actually damaging a computer or making a game unplayable.

[Red Spot]

glad to see this topic

I've neglected some warnings before and I'm simply not putting my tool-heavy system at risk cause of some copyprotection system.

All I can do is hope publishers feel this where it hurts them most and eventually change their ways ...

(I have like €200,- worth of games here that could just as well be binned as if I install them I can do a OS-reinstall afterwards, in certain cases without even being able to play the game without installing from a fresh OS-install, fun ....)


G

[nameless]

Hmmmm is it just me or is this being blown out of proportion?

I mean games like Bioshock can be an issue but there aren't tons of people out there that are having trouble installing/uninstalling the game now are they?

Plus I suspect a large number of the people who post and complain here want to pirate the game instead of buying it.

[barvaz]

Plus I suspect a large number of the people who post and complain here want to pirate the game instead of buying it.

Hmmm...no, not really. That is what so ridiculous about copy protection. The people who want to pirate the game have absolutely no reason to complain, they go and get the crack and are done with in about 5 minutes.

The people who have reason to complain are those who want to do the right thing and have a 100% legitimate system and are punished with this crapware sitting on their systems without the ability to remove it.

But most people don't care and call those who do "paranoids" and "blowing things our of proportions". It is the same with copy protection, DRM, DMCA, patents, privacy concerns, fair use, etc etc. Most people don't care as long as their systems/gadgets/games/movies/music appear to be working reasonably for them. Thing is, there is a thin line between this "it works for me" attitude and the point when your game stops working, your rights being violated or your privacy being breached. Some choose to take more active approach and protest before it reaches that point.

- barvaz

[Daveybaby]

Plus I suspect a large number of the people who post and complain here want to pirate the game instead of buying it.

Way to miss the entire point. If i wanted to pirate the game the copy protection wouldnt be causing any problems because the it will have been removed from the game entirely. It wont have cause any inconvenience to the pirates because the game will have been cracked within a few hours of release, if not before release.

The whole point is that the copy protection only hurts the paying customers. In other words: THE PIRATED VERSION IS A BETTER PRODUCT. More likely to work, less hassle, less intrusive crap on your hard drive. Publishers should be giving us incentives to buy their products, or at the very least not putting us off buying them.

I preordered kingdoms and its sitting on my desk next to my PC as i type this. If i'd known about the securom issues i'd certainly have thought twice about ordering the game. I'm holding off installing it until i've checked out the situation more (meh, i dont have time to play it this week anyway ). I'm definitely not buying bioshock - but i hear the pirated version doesnt have the 2 install limit (not saying i'm going to download it, just illustrating my point).

If somebody buys a game and it wont work on their machine because of the copy protection - or it stops something else working - or they upgrade one too many times and it wont install any more - or the company goes bust and the license server goes down and thus they cant play it any more - thats basically going to drive that person into the arms of the pirates. They'll download a crack to get the game they paid for working. And next time maybe they'll think "why bother buying the game if all its going to do is give me hassle - i'll just download the cracked version, at least i know it'll work"

Note: none of the above is an endorsement of piracy - i just think the game publishers are shooting themselves - and us - in the foot.