Your ideal stack and how you use it

[BananaBob]

What is your ideal stack and how do you use it? What is the perfect combination of units that make up your unbeatable "dream stack"?

Mine perfect stack consists of

4 pikes
2-4 heavy infantry
4 muskets/crossbows
2 heavy cav
2-4 Light cav/ missile cav
the rest as gun powder artillery

I have my pikes make a wall around my muskets and artillery, one heavy cav unit
on either side of the line for flanking, and I rush my missle cav behind the enemy line and harass. The mass musket and culverin/basilisk fire coupled with groups of reiters doing the shoot'n'charge is pretty much an instant route and the light cav clen up the fleeing enemy effortlessly. MANY a heroic victory hath come from this strategy. :yes:

[Flavius Merobaudes]

Welcome to the Guild, BananaBob.

Although your tactic might work, I find it a little unrealistic to put the muskets behind the pikes, as they can never get a clear shot. And I don't think pikes are a good frontline unit. They should be, but are severely bugged. Instead, I place my muskets in between the lowered pikes to blunt the charge before it penetrates to the pikemen causing them to switch to their swords, which is when they will die like flies.
Concerning the reiters, the enemy unit often stands still to receive the charge. At this point, stop the charge and you can shoot them in detail while they stand there waiting what happens next...:dizzy2:

There's some other tactics threads here you might be interested in, e. g. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=88758

[Grombeard]

This is my standard formation i use in singleplayer games:

I usually use a line of Spearmen (Armoured Sergeants or similiar units) as my frontline to hold off the initial blow if the enemy charges (with cavalry). To backup these troops after contact, heavy infantry (like DFKs) wait right behind this line. They also take care of enemys approaching around my flanks when my cavalry is busy. Next comes my missile crew (Archers or Xbows, though on flat ground i find archers are often better because i usually place them behind my lines and xbows need longer range to fire over the frontline, but usually i use them anyhow when they become available) to decimate the enemy before impact or harass the enemy general if he lurks around behind his men. Finally, on either side of the formation a few heavy cavalry units wait until they can flank the enemy and charge in their backs, chase down the enemy general, kill ballista/catapult/cannon crews and whatever duty has to be done. If i'm fighting against eastern factiosn i usually bring 50/50 heavy/light cavalry instead of only heavy, to be able to chase down these horse archers...

That's it... well, ok, if one is around, my general waits behind the middle of the front line so he can jump in and save the day whenever the front line soldiers can't hold it (the enemy ;)) any more or when flank support is required.

So heres the rough army composition in short:
6-8 Spearmen
4-6 Heavy Infantry
4-6 Missile Troops
4-8 Heavy Cav
(or 2-4 Heavy Cav and 2-4 Light Cav)
1 General ;)

[Galain_Ironhide]

welcome to the org BananaBob :holiday:

Hmmm... Lets See

English

3 x Spears
6 x Retinue Longbows
4 x Dism. Armoured Swordsman / dism. English Knights
4 x Heavy Cav
1 x General
2 x treb's

Turks

3 x Dism. Sipahi Lancers
2 x Naffatun
3 x Saracen Militia / Halberd Miltia
5 x Ottoman Infantry (Archers)
1 x General
4 x Sipahi's
2 x Catapaults

or

20 x Sipahi's

Plus a few variants of this. When facing the Mongols/Timurids I will normally increase my Spear units and archer units for the stand off and decrease my other infantry units. When playing as the Turks, flanking with Sipahis are very good for countering the Mongols' horse archers, drawing fire away from the main infantry lines allowing a more effective strike on the Mongols centre, which will usually consist of the General unit.

By the sounds of things I will be getting a re-education in how the Mongols conduct themselves in Broken Crescent though:smash:

[Zaleukos]

I often use the following Scottish stack, which is available fairly early:

4 highlander archers in a thin line
4 highlander nobles/order knights (border horse until nobles become available) in two groups, hidden at the flanks
6-7 highlander pikemen or scots pike militia (use ordinary highlanders until pike is available) behind the archers
4 highlanders in two groups to cover the flanks of the pikemen (later replaced by noble swordsmen).
General
1 bombard if sieging.

Not very sophisticated, but:

- Position yourself in a forest
- the archers pelt the advancing enemy and retreat behind the pikemen
- Pike holds the enemy (the militia will take huge losses if used)
- any enemies who try to flank you are dealt with by the highlanders
- pinned enemies are charged by the highlander nobles from the flank or back
- Archers are either put at the flanks for continued pelting or set to a dense formation (skirmish off) and used as an extra "charging reserve" (scottish archers are better at melee than at archery)

The general takes out enemy archers.

Obviously this setup has deficiencies on the attack (where I'd at the very least want to bring some border horse along) and would probably get eaten alive in MP, but against an advancing AI it works fine. The highlander nobles have the same charge bonus as feudal knights. I could use order knights instead of nobles, but prefer not to as I find that the lack of knights adds to the flavour of the scots.

[Eikon the Magistrate]

Depends on the army your are fighting against but my run of the mill standard late army is as follows (exception unhorsed knights)

x8 Portugese Abrequeser (PORTUGESE not reg!)
x4 Unhorsed Knights
x3 Tercio Pikemen
x2 Heavy Horse (chiv knights or the like)
x2 Musketeer
x1 Officer

of course there are exceptions... alot of time ill make a gun only stack

x10 Portugese Arbs
x6 Musketeers
x1 Culverin
x2 Heavy Horse
x1 Officer

against the tims/mongols alot of archers ,spearmen of all types and qualitys and light horse ..all of them spammed in abundance and without regard

theres many other combos tho that im sure are just as or more effective.... few as pretty to watch tho =)

[Monsieur Alphonse]

Playing as the Turks and fighting the Mongols:
1 general
5 heavy cavalry (Quapukulu)
14 HAs (Sipahi and Turkoman)

As the English:
1 general
7 longbows of any kind
4 heavy cavalry
4 armored swords
4 spears

As the Moors:
20 Camel gunners

[BananaBob]

Welcome to the Guild, BananaBob.

Although your tactic might work, I find it a little unrealistic to put the muskets behind the pikes, as they can never get a clear shot. And I don't think pikes are a good frontline unit.
Concerning the reiters, the enemy unit often stands still to receive the charge. At this point, stop the charge and you can shoot them in detail while they stand there waiting what happens next...:dizzy2:


I find that If you have any hills/ mountainous regions (Iberia especially) You can place the pikes so that they are in front of the muskets while at a lower elevation, and put a unit of heavy infantry in between. When you see infantry approach you lines, rush your infantry up and engage, followed by a quick cavalry charge from the heavy cav. Once the enemy routes, move your cav and infantry behind the pikes, and loose your skirmishers on the routers. If your playing the Spanish/Portuguese or have Swiss/Landersnekt (sp?) The pikemen can do a lot of damage with the swords, and you can usually get away with only minimal amounts of Heavy infantry.:yes:



They should be, but are severely bugged. Instead, I place my muskets in between the lowered pikes to blunt the charge before it penetrates to the pikemen causing them to switch to their swords, which is when they will die like flies.

:inquisitive:
Regarding the pikes, I have never had them not work out for me. They just keep the pikes out and keep the enemy at a distance until one enemy worms their way toe to toe with a pikeman. Only that pikemen switches to their swords and defends himself, the rest of his unit keeps the pikes out. It looks cool when to pikes slowly close in on each other. Like that "bad war" painting from the Italian wars.

Also, what is the current patch? I thought it was 1.3, but when I installed kingdoms it says patched to 1.4? :dizzy2:

[Rhyfelwyr]

Also, what is the current patch? I thought it was 1.3, but when I installed kingdoms it says patched to 1.4? :dizzy2:

Maybe you won some special patch for being the 1,000th person to install Kingdoms, because I have never heard of a patch 1.4 and if it has fixed your pikemen then I really want it now!

Pikemen have always been bugged as far as I have seen. The kill charging cavalry head-on, otherwise to me they appear useless. Anyway, my armies...

Turks:

As the Turks I like to vary things a bit. Playing as these guys has made me appreciate how deadly all cavalry armies are. However, representing the Ottomans in the late game I also like building some armies of Dis. Sipahi Lancers, Janissary Hvy Infantry, Janissary Archers / Ottoman Infantry, with some cavalry, artillery, and if available Janisarry Musketeers thrown in. However, my favourit earmy is:

1x General's Boyguard
5x Qapukulu (their maces will take down even the heaviest opponents)
2x Sipahi Lancers (bye-bye enemy foot archers)
6x Turkomans (round one flank, got speed and stamina which Sipahis lack)
6x Sipahis (round the other flank, got the armour and the punching power)

I'll just leave it at the Turks right now, since I can remember them best as I'm at Turn 190-something with them in my current campaign.

[Vladimir]

1 Bodyguard
6 Spears (any)
4 Sword (any)
4 Archer (any, archers are simpler but you can work in two crossbowmen)
2 Heavy/med Cav (or light)
3 Missile Cav (or light)

It's assumed that all unit categories are of the same type.

We're doing full stacks right? This one is perfect because by the time all you people get up to your high tech "ideal" armies I'll have conquered Asia minor and Africa while you're stuck, bankrupt, in your little corner of the map.

This army can do anything, and is all I need.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well I could just get an army of 20 Turkish Horse Archers / Turkomans...

Or Italian Spear Militia and Pavise Xbows as the Italian factions...

Or Mailed Knights with some others as anyone else...

Any of those armies can pwn the world. But they're not quite the 'ideal' stacks.

[BananaBob]

Maybe you won some special patch for being the 1,000th person to install Kingdoms, because I have never heard of a patch 1.4 and if it has fixed your pikemen then I really want it now!


I certainly hope so! :beam:

[Monsieur Alphonse]

Also, what is the current patch? I thought it was 1.3, but when I installed kingdoms it says patched to 1.4? :dizzy2:

Kingdoms is version 1.4. Pikes still suck in Kingdoms unless you remove their secondary weapons.

[Flavius Merobaudes]

If only the single guy - not the whole unit - would switch to swords, that would be a dream. But I have never seen that in my game. It works in RTW, why not in MTW2?:wall:

Playing Kingdoms from Gold Edition, version is 1.4, pikes are still bugged... Hoping the final patch will fix it...

[PBI]

My "ideal" stack would be equal parts musketeers, pikemen and late-period fast cavalry such as conquistadores or demi-lancers, to make an army roughly resembling an English Civil War era army. "Ideally" this stack should demonstrate any similar sized medieval army of knights, archers and swordsmen to be thouroughly obsolete.

Of course practically, this army doesn't really work very well given its hefty price tag. Therefore more ideal practical army at the moment would have to be:

10 Polish Nobles
10 Strelzcy

This army can be built from a wooden castle and seems to be very cost effective against the militia stacks seen in the early period, and seems to be quite effective against horse archers too. In fact I can't really think of any cheap and efficient way of defeating such a force.

Of course, this refers only to my ideal field army. My ideal siege army looks very different.

[Vladimir]

Well I could just get an army of 20 Turkish Horse Archers / Turkomans...

Or Italian Spear Militia and Pavise Xbows as the Italian factions...

Or Mailed Knights with some others as anyone else...

Any of those armies can pwn the world. But they're not quite the 'ideal' stacks.

Spam is far from ideal. Every time you overspecialize like with your horse archers you set yourself up for defeat. The army also shouldn't be faction specific. The army I use is ideal because it requires little infrastructure to raise and support, is maneuverable, flexible, and can be easily upgraded to incorporate new technology. Even as powerful as the Italian militias are, their relatively limited number of cities would be hard pressed to field enough men.

[Askthepizzaguy]

My dream stack is Ultimate light cavalry. Works against everything besides a full stack of Ultimate heavy cavalry or a full stack of Ultimate camel gunners.

Ultimate light cavalry:

My king's bodyguard unit (x1)
My king's personal heavy cavalry companion unit (x1)
Gold chevron, armour and lance upgraded light cavalry (x13)
If applicable, horse archers (x5), or heavy cavalry (x5)

More maneuverable and fast than any other unit, still equipped to deal a devastating charge, can do hit and run and doesn't tire easily, can outrun anything and keep up with horse archer armies.

Horse archers versus ultimate light cavalry = pwned.
Heavy infantry divisions and archers versus ultimate light cavalry = pwned
Standard assortment of cavalry and infantry versus ultimate light cavalry = pwned
Artillery versus ultimate light cavalry = pwned
Gunpowder versus ultimate light cavalry = pwned

Tactics: Surround and flank any infantry or cavalry to make them rout. If the general then exposes himself to prevent his troops from routing, surround him completely and continue pounding his troops from all directions to make them unable to envelop your cavalry without taking severe charges from the rear. If the general attempts to run away, light cavalry destroys him. Perfect general slayer when upgraded and used en masse.

When facing the Mongol horde, or any other "Ultimate heavy cavalry" combination, I don't put all my eggs in a single stack. I could probably come up with a single stack combo that could toe to toe slug it out with the mongols, but that would be a big bother and would destroy a lot of good troops needlessly. Thats why for anything the Ultimate light cavalry brigades cannot kill, I bring in my spammed heavy infantry and cavalry to surround and pound mercilessly from all directions. That is how you isolate and bring the fight to every single Mongol stack, even if their army is bigger than yours, your local numbers advantage will decimate stack after stack of troops and slowly destroy them with fewer losses on your part.

For the other 98% of battles, Ultimate light cavalry pwns. Other than seiges of course. The best seige force is any two stacks of infantry. If the enemy has reinforcements, thats what the ultimate light cavalry is there to slay first.

Ultimate light cavalry own the battlefield outside of seiges, and also own sally battles on both the defender and offensive side. Their only weakness is offensive seige situations where the enemy doesnt sally and I need to take the city by force, or when the Mongols arrive with their spammed heavy cavalry.

Everything else, light horse will own. Especially you horse archer lovers. I salivate at the thought of pounding your miserable cowardly horse archers into oblivion with my light cavalry. Since heavy cavalry is more expensive to recruit and maintain, and is more difficult to recruit outside your main recruitment centers, light cavalry is much easier to spam in greater numbers, from almost any captured castle from anywhere in the world.

Note: haven't actually used the Ultimate light cavalry spam as the main tactic in my campaigns, but I love, love, love using them in battles and am considering doing an Ultimate light cavalry campaign.

My critics:

"But any unit is more effective when upgraded. Why couldn't I do ultimate heavy infantry and slay your light cavalry?"

Light cavalry is available since the very beginning of the campaign, costs little to produce and maintain, can rout and destroy more enemies than any infantry army ever could, and I can recruit them from anywhere. Which army are you more likely to see spammed all over the campaign map, heavy armoured infantry with gold chevrons, or light cavalry with gold chevrons?

"What about ultimate heavy cavalry?"

Too expensive to maintain and costly to recruit. Requires more specific buildings to recruit, making them less available. By the time you churn out your gold heavy cavalry, my vast armies of light cavalry have already destroyed your empire. While if they were used in practice, heavy cavalry comparable to my light cavalry would win, they are just much more difficult to create and would be greatly outnumbered by my light cavalry spam.

[Vladimir]

Mountains and/or forest = cold pizza :thumbsdown:

spam = loss

You do have a strong argument though. Maneuverability is what you need on the battlefield. Low costs help too.

[Askthepizzaguy]

mountains:

this is where your troops go to hide from the wrath of my armies. You think you have a win, but it's a standoff. I don't have to attack you. I can just go around a different way, take your cities, and eliminate your faction.

Unless you're defending mountain passes from the Mongols, mountains don't come up very much. I only use them when defending against the suicidal ai, rare cases that I am on the defensive.

So the situation is rare, and a stalemate, not a loss.

Next: Forests.

Bwahaha! I could easily win. The only things I fear are archers and heavy cavalry, neither are effective in forests.

But neither are light cavalry, right?

That's debateable. I can outrun, outflank, and generally outmaneuver infantry even in dense forests. And once they move, they expose their position. There will be no ambush, as I will send in a scouting unit who can quickly get away. Once your position is exposed, I fear no ambush. Then it's just a matter of quickly striking infantry with lance charges and running away until their general exposes himself, which then exposes him to flanking maneuvers. With the general dead, hit and run tactics will win the day. Eventually the infantry will get tired of chasing the cavalry.

The only solution I see that works with unmaneuverable infantry is the Giant Schiltrom formation, with the general in the middle, on a hill in the forest. With no exposed flanks, I cannot win. But then again, I don't have to charge to my death in this case either, and we have the same situation we had on the mountain. You have a defensive advantage, and I don't have to fall for it.

You cannot force me to attack you unless you're besieging me, so these particular exceptions are moot.

[Vladimir]

You'll take my city with your all light cav stack? I don't think so.

You may win in heavily forested areas but I believe the attrition rate would not be in your favor.

In my mind a good summary would be: Heavy units hold the ground that light and medium units take. Move light and fast! :charge:

[Galain_Ironhide]

Spam is far from ideal.

I'm sure my 600 or so Sipahi's wouldn't like you calling them spam! :clown:

You are definately right though. But when you are bored, sometimes creating all same-type stacks can just spice up the game a little.

[Askthepizzaguy]

You'll take my city with your all light cav stack? I don't think so.

You may win in heavily forested areas but I believe the attrition rate would not be in your favor.

In my mind a good summary would be: Heavy units hold the ground that light and medium units take. Move light and fast! :charge:


Oops!

Please go back and see my first post. I call for two stacks of basic infantry to take cities I can't starve to death with my perpetual anti-sally seige stack of light horse.

They are also great for slaying relief forces and maintaining the seige.

Only for actually taking the city would I use infantry.

[ArtistofWarfare]

Oops!

Please go back and see my first post. I call for two stacks of basic infantry to take cities I can't starve to death with my perpetual anti-sally seige stack of light horse.

They are also great for slaying relief forces and maintaining the seige.

Only for actually taking the city would I use infantry.

How would you go about attacking in forested areas with that all light cavalry army?

Pikes, Spears, some Militias and Armoured Sergeants, Missile Units...etc...All hiding in the woods, concealed.

How do you go about that one? :smash:

[PBI]

I think possibly there are two different questions being asked here. I believe the OP was asking what your idea of the best stack you could possibly assemble would be, i.e. which would be most effective in battle, irrespective of cost and availability.

There is a separate question to this, which is "what is the most cost-effective stack you could produce, i.e. a stack which although it may ultimately lose the battle to the above stack, would win the war through its abundance and cheapness.

Perhaps we should have two different categories, a "best budget model" stack, and a "best in show" stack. Of course, my favourite stack falls into neither category; it is neither particularly effective, nor is it very cheap. I just like it.


You are definately right though. But when you are bored, sometimes creating all same-type stacks can just spice up the game a little.

Agreed, I find sometimes it is fun to take on an enemy army with a totally unsuitable army. Like trying to take on an eastern horse archer army with an all pikemen stack. After all, Alexander did it, so it must be possible.

[Vladimir]

I think possibly there are two different questions being asked here. I believe the OP was asking what your idea of the best stack you could possibly assemble would be, i.e. which would be most effective in battle, irrespective of cost and availability.

My counterpoint was that my ideal stack would prevent others from creating their ideal stack, and therefore is better than theirs. I'm sure Sun Tzu had a saying about defeating an army before it even takes the field.

Everyone was focusing on the end and not the opening game. Your ideal stack should be so because it ensures victory in the opening moves.

I also thought it good to remind people that ideal /= ultimate. Your force structure should be able to adapt to changing technology.

[YankeeDoodle14]

I developed my original formula for R:TW. It can be adapted for M2:TW though by using the best corresponding units you can find.

1 bodyguard.
4 legionary cavalry.
1 legionary first cohort.
8 legionaries.
2 auxilia spearmen
2 auxilia archers
2 auxilia skirmishers

The legionaries would be drawn up in two lines with the legionary first cohort in the place of honor on the front left. Two units of cavalry would be in column formation on either side, and the general would be in the rear of the lines. All of these men would be put in the flatest ground available.

The auxilia units would be place either into a nearby forrest or on top of a nearby hill.

The enemy would be forced to strike the legionaries and their cavalry first. The legionaries would throw their pillae and hold the line with their swords for quite some time. If the front line got in trouble, line two would assist and the general would blow his horn. Then, when the enemy had been bloody, the auxilia would come rushing in to attack either their flank or their rear. The enemy would almost always break, and if they didn't I would still usually be able to slaughter them from my improved position. Classic hammer-anvil.

It never once failed my, except when i made stupid mistakes. It even stood up to a stack of all Parthian generals. Although the medieval troops aren't quite as strong as their roman counterparts, and there's more variety, the same basic stratagy is remarkably effective.

[YellowMelon]

As much cavalry as I can afford. Let's the armies move around quicker and basically ... the ai is stupid. All you have to do is execute an effective charge and they are decimated.

[Eikon the Magistrate]

Late units for the most part are better than any early unit. In that sense an ideal stack would have to by definition be composed of primarily late period units.

Theres standard and ideal..An "ideal" stack is not usually possible since that unit would require the necessary improvements in a city to create the unit, then created,moved and committed to enough battles and retrained accordingly to achieve the proper xp lvl (ie: 1 gold chevron)then placed in a stack with its similar brethren. Or perhaps the ideal stack contains mercs or another factions units, or is to expensive to actually create.

Standard is pretty much the same,at least for Catholic factions, and its standard because it works. (Except for ATPG of course)

x5-6 spearmen
x4-5 sword
x4-6 archer/xbow
x4-5 any cav u have
x1 officer


I guess you could go for more archers/cav. And of course,this isnt exactly what Id always send but it will get the job done campaign-wise.

[Callawyn]

Try increasing all these ideal stacks from 4 to 6 archer/xbow units. Placement is key, put these archers directly in front of your main line of infantry. Direct fire is far more deadly than indirect. You just have to be sure to withdraw them behind your infantry (and/or charge your infantry forward) just prior to the start of melee combat. Also, firing downhill is incredibly more effective than firing uphill or even firing across level ground. Look around for the biggest hill when placing your army, line up your archers to be able to fire downhill towards the likely line of advance of the enemy. With a gradual incline, the enemy will be just about ready to rout by the time you hit them with your infantry, with a big hill you can rout their entire army before they reach your lines. Also, I've found that lots of archers/xbow are an effective counter to enemy horse-archers, and are effective in sieges as well. Finally, in some of my most disastrous field battles, I've snatched victory from the jaws of defeat more often than not by setting all my missile units to 'skirmish' when my infantry line routs. If the enemy has few/no cav left, half doz skirmishing missile units can defeat a seemingly overwhelming number of infantry, especially if your bodyguard is still around to deliver the occassional charge vs exhausted/weakened/exposed enemy infantry units.

4-6 Cavalry, any type, for flanking/harassment/pursuit. Helps to have at least 2 of these be 'fast'. As for all cav stacks, I'm not a big fan. You can't use them for sieges unless you want to starve the enemy. Field battles are generally just speed-bumps on the way to my next siege, even when the AI manages to field full stacks. I much prefer balanced armies. However, having one or more mini-stacks (6 or so units) of cavalry/HA to run around crushing rebels or the occassional enemy incursion is pretty useful.

7-9 Infantry, best that you can get. I like to have 2 'shock' type for flanking (high attack/charge) with main line being defensive types. BTW, pikemen properly used are nearly invincible, improperly used they're pretty much useless. Try playing Scotland single player, read some posts on how to use pikes, and use them as your main battle line. Try various tactics and pause/zoom in a lot 'till you get the feel for how to use them. Once you get the tactics down, you'll love them. Admittedly, it does take a good bit more micro-management than it really should. The main thing is to figure out how to get them to keep their spear-wall up rather than switching to swords. Learn how to keep them from switching to swords in the first place, how to get them to switch back to pikes when their using swords, and how to maneuver them in close proximity to the enemy while still keeping their pikes down. If you take out enemy archers/artillery with your cavalry and keep a couple hvy infantry to protect your flanks, your pikemen should be able to destroy just about anything.

Not much difference having 4 rather than 6 cavalry, while 6 instead of 4 missile units is very noticable. 9 rather than 7 infantry can be essential against certain enemies.

[Gray Beard]

My favorite stack depends on what I have. The Byzantines have some good units that are very hard to reach. So Mostly I have to use what I can get.

A normal early army looks something like this.

Spear Militia X 6 Used as a shield wall
Byzantine Spearmen work but don't get the free upkeep in a city

Archers X 6 Trebizond Archers are my favorite

Infantry X 4 Byzantine Infantry/Spearmen/Mercenaries/ Spear militia
I don't have much to choose from here.

Cavalry X 3 HA's

General X 1

If I really need to win the battle I'll put 4 family members as the cavalry because those are the only heavy cavalry the Byzantines can reach for a long time.

[PrestigeX]

My ideal army would include.

half horse
half foot

Half of the horse would be missile cav
the other would be Heavy Cav

Foot army would include half pike/spear units
2 archer units
and then some heavy infantry , i think it would be 3.. sometimes no archers and more heavy infantry, and vice versa

[Henry707]

Hey All,

In terms of game play vs realism, it is always interesting to see people listing "10 Polish Nobles" etc.

A few people have pointed out that they like to adopt more realistic armies & these certainly make the games more challenging. For example, ensuring that you have a certain number of peasants in there.

I must admit I love ranged weapons like the crossbow & it is so tempting to get 6 decent units in there, smash the AI & declare myself an equivalent of Napoleon in terms of generalship!!

Maybe an ideal stack should include 4-6 peasant units, 2-4 militia units, a few professional units etc etc. I think jamming in over-powered super units really is pushing it!

Henri

[PBI]

What's unrealistic about an all-horse-archer army? That's pretty much what the Mongols were and they were surely the "ideal" army to have during the Middle Ages, certainly the most effective.

Admittedly 10 Polish Nobles is pushing it a bit... but I wasn't trying to suggest a realistic army, merely an effective one. I did also suggest a realistic army which I do try to use, but as I pointed out it's expensive and not very effective so hardly ideal.

[Askthepizzaguy]

You'll take my city with your all light cav stack? I don't think so.

You may win in heavily forested areas but I believe the attrition rate would not be in your favor.

In my mind a good summary would be: Heavy units hold the ground that light and medium units take. Move light and fast! :charge:

Ok, it's true. Technically.

An ALL cavalry stack cannot take cities unless the enemy sallies.

However, I think this shows you that once the defenses have fallen, little infantry cannot withstand the mighty cavalry armies.

https://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh137/askthepizzaguy2/Turk0030.jpg


As for forest battles, the next time I fight one with light cavalry I will post the devastating results. The only defense is the Giant Schiltrom, which reveals no flanks. In such a case, it's a standoff, because Giant Schiltroms are like turtles with iron shells. They can't attack you, so what's the point?

[Eikon the Magistrate]

Is there actually still a cav-in-tree penalty? In mtw1 there was of course, as there was for missles in the rain. But I havent noticed any such penalties in mtw2. obviously the trees break up the formations abit but they dont seem to die any faster/shoot any worse in their assumed adverse conditions.

Why would ne1 shiltrom an entire army of pikemen? putting ur eggs in 1 basket means that they all get crushed together. wouldnt it be better to have em in depth and at least a couple in reg form as a counter to your opponent flanking/surrounding ur force?

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think you misunderstand my meaning of Giant Schiltrom.

The troops are not actually in Schiltrom formation, but they are lined up in a circle with all their spears facing out, this removing ANY exposed flanks. In a forest versus light cavalry, that would be impossible to defeat without the use of ballistics.

[TheLastPrivate]

20 vardariotais @ 1.0 Vanilla XD

[Henry707]

Sure, all cav for the mongols but I think it is unrealistic for a European power. I was just pointing out that my preference is for a more realistic army rather than a 'games console' style affair with all elite units.

Still, each to their own - I also enjoy using loads of horse archers too!

Henri

[MerlinusCDXX]

My Ideal stack changes depending on the type of armies I'll face. This is for non-HA factions

vs melee inf/cav armies:
4x Armored spears
2x Light/fast spears
2-4x Melee inf
2-4x Shock/AP inf
2-4x Foot archers (light or melee capable)
3x "volley" Horse Archers
2-4x Melee cavalry (mix of light and heavy)
1x General

vs Horse Archer armies
3x "trash" Infantry
3x Armored Spears
4x Heavy foot archers
2x "light" foot archers
4x FAST light cavalry
3x Cataphract type cavalry
1x General

I'm playing Broken Crescent these days and haven't touched vanilla for a while, so I'm at a loss for perfect stacks in Western Europe. Hell, I don't even remember who gets what units in vanilla anymore.

[Old Geezer]

My ideal stack (for the moment) has become an improved cavalry bodyguard general, 6 or so silver chevron Hospitalers, and the rest gold or silver Border Horse (with upgraded armor and weapon. If I only have the 6 Hospitable Knights then I have to be more carefull in attacking elephants and make sure I stick them in the posterior packyderm place. A pleasant secondary aspect of said army is that it often produces heroic victories, which is what the Scots are all about. (This is a very frugal army.) For fun throw in a unit of any kind of pikes (with secondary weapon removed) and watch the silly AI general charge them straight on with elan. It takes a while, but the pikes will shred the knights and kill three fourths of them before the general is killed and/or the knights route. I have baited the AI general with Border Horse and drawn him near pikes; when he gets near the pikes he'll charge or more wisely sometimes walk over to thrash the peasant pikes. If you have 2 pike units and make a wedge the effect is catastrophic and quick with almost no pike losses.

The Border Horse can easily destroy the heavier Mongol cavalry by using 2 together or in combination with an Hospitaler (or even mailed knights). The trick is to charge the heavier Mongol cavalry in the flank or rear - sometimes repeatedly which is easy usually because the Border Horse are so fast and disengage fast.

[Eikon the Magistrate]

AS a disclaimer I thot Id add this about gunpowder troops. They are primarily offensive. They work great as attackers, but can easily become fodder in a defensive situation. Their nemesis is obviously a cavalry charge. So in a defense of 2/1 odds or greater... it may be expedient to have a true "front line" for the AI to charge instead. I experienced this first hand late last night when the Moors attacked with @ 3/1 odds against a full gun stack (no officer) I won still...(covering fire!!!) but it was way to close and I had less than 200 left afterwards.

PS I found out how to take screenshots! (only a decade behind e1 now hehe)
so Ill try to put those up once I get home.

[Ed TW]

5 pipes
5 swords
I alternate the pipes and swords moving them into whatever the enemy throws at me (Rock, Paper, Scissors) Have to have pipes at the ends.
2-3 archers behind infantry (not much of a missile guy there always getting mangled. I especially don't like to use them on the offense-however I do like to use flamming arrows. The victims look like they got disintergrated by a nuclear blast. I keep them behind infantry for protection. Only put them in the front if it's uphill for the enemy. The rest I'll use are calvary.
I send 2 or units of fast calvary way out at a distance to the flanks and forward. then start walking them toward the back of the enemy of the enemy when they pass. I'll take out missles or smash into the back of enemy infantry where I need it. I'll also try to pin down their general until I can get pipes or my general on him.
2 units of calvary on the close flanks and back behind the lines for maneuverability - Like Grombeard said - I keep my general in the back center to plug up holes- also keeping a spear or calvary unit to protect him. It's pretty vanilla.

P.S. Besides all the b*!l $h!t I just wrote. My favorite situation is when I have artillery at a bridge crossing.

[Ed TW]

LC............................................................LC
.........................PSPSPSPSP.......................
......................P...A....A....A..P....................
...............HC.............G (C or P).....HC.......

[jepva]

Five units Spearmen - not the militia kind (SP)
Four units Heavy Infantry (HI)
Four units archers - preferably the stake setting type (AR)
Two units crossbow (CB)
General (CC)
One unit heavy cavalry (HC)
Three units artillery (AT)

I can use this offensively, defensively, and for besiging.


................CB AR AT AR AT AR AT AR CB
........................SP SP SP SP SP
.....................HI.....................HI
.................HI..........CC.HC..........HI

Defensively - Just before the enemy is in sword range, the archers are moved behind the spearmen and artillerymen are routed then moved behind archers; if the enemy is inferior or equal in cavalry, CC and HC are moved to their respective flanks; once enemy infantry is in contact with SP, HI moves forward to attack on their flanks; if enemy is superior in cavalry - HI, CC, HC are used to defend against cavalry flank attacks.

Seiges - the force is divided into three sections, attacking three sides of the city/castle, simultaneously, thus spreading out the defenders (which are always far fewer numerically - if not, lay seige until they are forced to attack you. Note: If you have good missile cav, such as Polish Strelczy - lay seige with six of these, one general and one HC - if the garrison is six or more units, the garrison will sally out on the next turn and be annihilated.

[_Tristan_]

My ideal stack :

Whatever is at hand...

I never manage to build a stack acoording to some guidelines... I usually make do with what my nearest training center is able to provide and what mercs are available as a complement...

Plus any "ideal" stack will depend on what kind of armies I'll be facing or the type of fight I will be getting into (field, bridge or siege/sally...)

Mainly I use to rely a lot on missile infantry (with long range attribute if possible) and a mix of light and heavy cav plus some spears or other infantry in support of the missile units...

I rarely use a full stack anyway but may combine 2+ half stacks depending on the opposition...

[Askthepizzaguy]

My ideal stack :

Whatever is at hand...

I never manage to build a stack acoording to some guidelines... I usually make do with what my nearest training center is able to provide and what mercs are available as a complement...

Plus any "ideal" stack will depend on what kind of armies I'll be facing or the type of fight I will be getting into (field, bridge or siege/sally...)

Mainly I use to rely a lot on missile infantry (with long range attribute if possible) and a mix of light and heavy cav plus some spears or other infantry in support of the missile units...

I rarely use a full stack anyway but may combine 2+ half stacks depending on the opposition...

There is something to be said for keeping your forces small and maneuverable and in seperate stacks: It's called the Multiple General Benefit

Your forces are at least led by several captains. If one of them dies, a portion of your troops might rout, but the rest remain to fight. It's called not putting all your eggs in one basket.

However, I never do such a thing when my vulnerable family members are at stake. I always surround them with supreme defensive troops to prevent them from dying. In terms of fighting the enemy's most secure defenses, that is.

If you can take your single stack and divide it into two or three light, maneuverable forces and surround your enemy, but set the battle so the AI does NOT control reinforcements, it is as though you still have your one stack to begin with, plus 2 captains to boost morale!

If you need the AI to control your forces, Try to make your other captains infantry units, so they don't bum rush the enemy and die on spearpoints. I trust the AI to handle captains when they aren't mounts.

If you have several generals, for god's sake, split them up and control them, if possible. What's the point of having a general when he has no morale boosting capability? If thats the case, bring heavy cavalry instead, because thats essentially all he is.

Even if he's ALONE as a support unit, he won't rout when your first general does, as he is now his own general. I don't think reinforcement generals can use the rally command, but it would be sweet if they could.

Also, sometimes people say: 20 (insert favorite mounted unit) and declare victory.

Well hold on, there, hotstuff. That's all well and good IF you know how to HANDLE that many horse.

They are useful when outnumbered and given formed charges to work with... when THEY outnumber or equal the enemy, they stop being as useful because they end up crossing into each other's path and breaking each other's formed charges and generally being unwieldly to use.

Once your formed charge has been successful, with that many cavalry, often times people will just sit there and melee, or if they are somewhat smart, they use a few mounts to pull back and charge again... but in the meantime you have the equivalent of a unit of mounts dying every 15 seconds.

Not very smart use of your horses. Try this:

Break them up into 3 seperate stacks, give them each a general if possible. Now, lead your horse archers onto the battlefield first to impale the enemy and wear them out from chasing you. Soon, your reinforcements will arrive and you've run out of arrows. You can either have your HA leave the battle entirely without losing any men to casualties, or charge them in a suicide attack into the enemy rear when already engaged with your reinforcements.

I prefer having them leave the battle entirely, so you can reuse them over and over again.

The enemy will be wounded, perhaps exhausted from your initial horse archer raid.

The benefit of having only HA on the field for a while is that you have no other vulnerable targets, and they can strike and evade quite well. So you can wear out and damage the enemy without taking any other casualties and you have the entire battlefield to run around unimpeded. In fact, if your reinforcements take a while to show up... GOOD!!!

You could have 3/4 stack of horse archers, and a full stack of other cavalry and other kinds of troops. Lead with your horse archers, and command the reinforcements yourself.

By "routing" your own forces when they are done, you can bring more troops under your direct control. Bring all your horse archers and skirmishers on first, and then the heavy infantry and cavalry. Once they are wounded, shaken, and depleted by your missiles, charge into them with your cavalry from the flanks with a formed charge, to get them to stop advancing towards you, and then charge your heavy infantry into them while reversing your cavalry.

Hammer, THEN anvil, then hammer until they all die. It's a nifty strategy. However, I've yet to come across a predicament which would call for such effots or drastic measures.

Still, it's far more powerful than a single stack, or 2 stacks, one under AI control, and it's a great way to decimate the enemy without losing too many troops. Those danged horse archers...

[Yesugey]

Hey All,

In terms of game play vs realism, it is always interesting to see people listing "10 Polish Nobles" etc.

A few people have pointed out that they like to adopt more realistic armies & these certainly make the games more challenging. For example, ensuring that you have a certain number of peasants in there.

I must admit I love ranged weapons like the crossbow & it is so tempting to get 6 decent units in there, smash the AI & declare myself an equivalent of Napoleon in terms of generalship!!

Maybe an ideal stack should include 4-6 peasant units, 2-4 militia units, a few professional units etc etc. I think jamming in over-powered super units really is pushing it!

Henri


I am totally agree with you, Henry707.

Ofcourse 20 units of Heavy Cav., Horse archers or 20 units of Polish Nobles would be ultimate army, but it cant be realistic. Even Mongols have large number of Cavalry, but lots of support troops (from their slave factions) as well. I always thought; Changing the "Mongol Rocket Launcher"s name to "Chinese Rocket Lunchers" and create Chinese looking engineers, or even add some "Chinese auxilary Militia" would be really realistic. (Remember "Korean Spearmen" from STW.)

But we talking about also costs of troops, and more of and realism. (I like to call it "Total War spirit")

So thats my main army, with the realistic facts:

* 3 of General's unit. They are good for charges, and refreshing themselves every turn, and i like to think as anyone of them commanding a part of the army like in real battles.

* 4 units of archers, or xbows. i actually prefer to not use any archers, but horse archers making me do it.

* 3 units of siege equipment. Trebuchets or Late cannons are preferable, but im ok with Mangonels as well.

* 6 units of Spearmen. Medieval armies generally based on Spearmen, even for horse archer factions.

* 2 units of swordsmen. On medieval ages, swordsmen were special troops, and you cant produce much of them. I wish there can be a top limit of trained units for every region.

* 2 units of Light Cavalry. (to catch the runners, or distract the lines of enemy archers while my men apporaching.)

Heavy Cavalry?.. Horse Archers?.. Nah, i am ok with my cheap army.

But its ok to put one of "Knights With Shining Armor" unit, to represent the noblemen of my faction on battlefield.

Yes, that army could take heavy casualties against horse archers or Heavy Cav. But im ok with that, because thats exactly what happened on medieval age.

Im also ok with losing a battle, flee my general and back for vengeance ^^

[Old Geezer]

I noticed that the OP (B"Bob) included 4 units of pikes. I love pikemen but if they have not been modified I'd just as soon have drunken peasants. If their secondary weapons are removed then about all you need to defeat any other army, including Timurids are some very fast horsies -as in border horse or Alan (but I always have severl Hospitallers in such fights too). If you are attacking a city or citadel full of Timurids you don't even need the horsies - just about 10 units of Noble Pikemen will suffice. Well, you still need a general, just in case (a very rare one) that one of the pikemen will break - break and run that is, they break wind all the time even they are nobles.

An army composed of a general and jinetes in a field battle with few trees is another fun time. But, I admit it is very wearisome for me to micro manage these guys. The AI is much better at controlling them than I have been.

Nobody ever mentions fanatics do they? These guys are pretty fun and can pack a whollop. If you could just get them some experience and put armor on them they would almost be beserkers. I love to open gates with spys and have some fanatics run in to take out the archers on the walls and the spearmen near the gates and when all is safe send in the pikemen.

[Sebastian Seth]

2 Generals
2 Heavy Lancers
2 Horse Archers
4 Spearmen
2 Pikemen
2 Heavy Infantry
2 Shock Troops
4 Archers or Crossbowmen

Theres shifts between...
...Heavy Lancers and Horse Archers.
...Pikemen, Spearmen and Heavy Infantry.
...Heavy Infantry and Shock Troops

- The army can be easily divided to two and then brought back together for bigger assaults.
- Because theres many types of units theres usually new "half army" available for recruiting fast.
- In russian and middle east you can get the whole cavarly from mecreneries.
- In europe you can get the whole infantry from merceneries.