Cordinau Orca

[SaberHRE]

Or basically the Scordiscii

They are still monsters:dizzy2:
Anyone who thought the Naked Bastards are tough, try fighting the Scordiscii. They are basically such a versatile and perfect unit. After getting armour upgrade they have 30 armour. I had them fight the Hetairoi and Galatikoi Tindonae, at the same time... :laugh4:, and they won, after a cavalry charge and intimidation from naked men.

I really recommend them to anyone interested in super infantry unit.

[Elmetiacos]

See the "Materia Celtica" thread... the Scordisci were indeed one of the toughest Celtic tribes, but I'm of the opinion that this unit, like some others, does get a bit too much armour, even for a tribe coming from a region famous for iron.

[Watchman]

The only thing different from the usual Celtic mailed inf in their panoply is the greaves, you know...

[Barry Soteiro]

is orca related to orcs ? but where are the olog hai ?

[Elmetiacos]

Again, see the Materia Celtica thread. In my (humble?) opinion, the phrase "Cordinau Orca" is completely made up with no basis any known Celtic language, current or extinct. Whether or not Tolkien's orcs were in the mind of whoever invented it is impossible to say.

[Uticensis]

That's funny, when I first saw them in EB, their name reminded me of shamu the killer whale.

They do make great infantry. I played a Makdonian campaign in 1.0 where I recruited them en mass in order to fight the Romans. My only complaint was that you can only recruit them in one territory, which means you can only recruit one per turn and sending them home for retraining is a nightmare. Also, they don't carry javelines, which gave the roman soldiers a bit of a leg up on them, before melee started at least.

[QuintusSertorius]

They do make great infantry. I played a Makdonian campaign in 1.0 where I recruited them en mass in order to fight the Romans. My only complaint was that you can only recruit them in one territory, which means you can only recruit one per turn and sending them home for retraining is a nightmare. Also, they don't carry javelines, which gave the roman soldiers a bit of a leg up on them, before melee started at least.

I fought against a unit of them in a massive battle against rebels in my 1.0 Roman game. They didn't last long under a hail of slingshot and pila. Easier to deal with than those Gaesatae, certainly.

[Uticensis]

As for the basis in a Celtic language, well, let me say first that I have no knowledge of any Celtic language. None whatsoever. That being said, the decription said their name means "battle boars." I wikipedia'ed "boar", then went to the gaelic version of the page: http://gd.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torc_fiadhach.
They are called "Torc fiadhach." Minus the t, and its orc, which is similar to "orca." Again, I have no knowledge of gaelic, so this could be incredibly wrong and was just an experiment.

[cmacq]

There actually is sort of a basis for the use of Orca, but its not Torc and its really not too Kelt either. However, I guess that all depends on what one wants to call Kelt? If its a non-Keltic basis for a Kelt use of Orca, then, ya theres a Kelt basis? Or is that, no??? Still, yes, Orca is related to Tolkien's orcs, the whales, the personage, and oh yes, the place (which may have been considered her abode and a doorway to the underworld).

To over-tax the tonge, I fear a fallacious etymology for Torc can indeed only be a wee bit mor Ungulated, taut, and twisted.

[Elmetiacos]

Torc means "boar" in both Irish and Scots Gaelic, the Welsh being twrch, iirc. That's not related, as cmaqc says, to "orca", which is the Latin name for some sort of sea creature, nowadays applied to the killer whale. Both words are said to be derived from a proto-Celtic root *turko- which is why my proposed name for them was Korioturkoi.

[cmacq]

For we all in laymen read again, please? Torc = Pork...

are we clear?

Actually, not to make too fine a point...

there's this island thingy, as its not just one but many, that we've all heard of, named after a certain mythic personage, called; what the hell was that name? I think it used to be the habit of these poor alde sods to name their islands after these things, as this is the island of 'so and so', so bu**er off, or they'll strike ya down with boils or somesuch and lots of pain, yea lots o'pain.

And it seems at some point in the distant past these killer whale thingys, used to hang here in the water eating seal, in great numbers (and the occasional unlucky passer-by). So somehow, they kind of picked up the name, like 'santa's little helpers.' Except boys and girls, the cosmology here wasn't about hanging angels on a Yule Tree, sneakin oranges out a Horn of Plenty, or opening a bright-wraped gift xmass-morn. Ohhhh no, not in the sweet little world view I'm referring to; all dressed up in sugar and spice and whatnot.

What the hell was that name???

[cmacq]

Right, Orkades/Orcades, or known as the Orkneys today. The old Gaelic name is 'Innis Orc' or 'Orc Island.' Still, the names not Kelt, per se.

[Slim_Ghost]

It took a damn long time to finish them off with my Getaic armies, even when I had all my units having double silver chevron experience and armor upgrades, making them on par with a Roman Legionnaire.

[cmacq]

Orc is taken from Latin, literally meaning 'the dead, death,' or the 'underworld.' Orcus can mean both 'the underworld' and 'the god of the underworld.' I believe Orcades/Orkades, refers to the island off the coast of scotland as being the abode of one Orcos, ie. a god of the dead; and to a door to the underworld, or as I like to call it, the gateway to the deepest, darkest, blackest of hells there ever was. And of course, the whales as Orks/Orcas are just death's little helpers. As far as Orc being Kelt, maybe some type of IE, but Kelt per se, only if hell freezes over? I hear it gets very cold there, but it never ices up.

[blitzkrieg80]

There actually is sort of a basis for the use of Orca, but its not Torc and its really not too Kelt either. However, I guess that all depends on what one wants to call Kelt? If its a non-Keltic basis for a Kelt use of Orca, then, ya theres a Kelt basis? Or is that, no??? Still, yes, Orca is related to Tolkien's orcs, the whales, the personage, and oh yes, the place (which may have been considered her abode and a doorway to the underworld).

To over-tax the tonge, I fear a fallacious etymology for Torc can indeed only be a wee bit mor Ungulated, taut, and twisted.
provide some evidence that Old English orcnēas which makes its way into Beowulf at line 112 is from Latin loanword traffic, please. This is the word from which all Tolkien and derivative fantasy orcs are based, as stated by Tolkien himself a professor of Old English aka Anglo-Saxon, so you cannot argue anything in that regard until this claim is substantiated with some sort of valid proof, academic or otherwise.

Or are we to claim next that Smaug's name does not mean 'to squeeze into a hole'?

[cmacq]

provide some evidence that Old English orcnēas which makes its way into Beowulf at line 112 is from Latin loanword traffic, please. This is the word from which all Tolkien and derivative fantasy orcs are based, as stated by Tolkien himself a professor of Old English aka Anglo-Saxon, so you cannot argue anything in that regard until this claim is substantiated with some sort of valid proof, academic or otherwise.

Or are we to claim next that Smaug's name does not mean 'to squeeze into a hole'?


No latin in OE?
On the one hand, I suppose that would depend on which side of the fence one sets. Then on the other hand, I for one don't judge, as I set on the fence. Was Orcus not known as Pluto's evil brother, yet its all very strange as I never saw the two together? It was either one or the other, but never both together at the same time, ach sehr seltsam?

[blitzkrieg80]

Your proof is the existence of Latin itself, or that Old English has other Latin loanwords when the very language as it is recorded is based on Roman Catholic scribes? Is English therefore based upon a bastardization of Latin (a bastardization of Greek) as was taught so long ago?

[cmacq]

Slow down, there Tonto. Didn't we read somewhere about how english, seems able to glaum on to every diminutive morsel that it contacts? Did you mean Welsh or English, as I've seen this agrument in that backyard, as well?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Your proof is the existence of Latin itself, or that Old English has other Latin loanwords when the very language as it is recorded is based on Roman Catholic scribes? Is English therefore based upon a bastardization of Latin (a bastardization of Greek) as was taught so long ago?

Beowulf is written in Alfred's Christian Wessex English. It's not an ancient pre-Christian manuscript even if the story is pre-migration. It's very clearly a Christian version of a pagan legend. I'm afraid your arguement eats it's own tail, because the actual English of Beowulf is already Christianised.

In any case sharing between various Indo-European languages is common. Look at Hittite, the first word they translated was actually water "wata".

So if an English word can turn up in Hittite a Latin word can certainly turn up in English.

[blitzkrieg80]

who is saying Beowulf is written by pagans? (i find this amusing, since I wrote a thesis paper on Beowulf in my Beowulf university graduate class, concerning the parallels between Beowulf and Christian influence/themes, such as a magic number of 12 followers) please read what i actually said. just because it might be possible, does not make a thing possible. evidence is required for such. Indo-European cognates are NOT loanwords until proven so, whether you want to believe it or not. You may not believe in Proto-Indo-European but that doesn't make you right because of the mere existence of loanwords.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So the "Roman Catholic scribes" comment was just a jab? What if it is a loanword? It's a reasonable supposition, that doesn't make it right but it had to come from somewhere and the "Old" English is not that old and already it has picked up a lot of Latin, even the Germanic Futhark is based on Latin script.

So, what's your objection? Just that you don't like it being a Latin loanword?

Edit: In any case your objection seems to be against Orcs and Anglo-Saxons which doesn't have a direct bearing on Celts in the Baltic.

[blitzkrieg80]

This is an excerpt from one of my textbooks obtained in a university class on English literature, topical author- Tolkien :


"Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English [I]orc 'demon,' but only because of its phonetic suitability) are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin" (Tolkien 177-178). The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. Edited by Humphrey Carpenter. Houghton Mifflin Co., 2000.


My objection is the comment that Tolkien's orcs are based on Latin, which he clearly says is not the case. He was a reputable scholar, so I'd like to see some evidence saying he was a liar or incorrect in his authority.



Edit: In any case your objection seems to be against Orcs and Anglo-Saxons which doesn't have a direct bearing on Celts in the Baltic.
You're right- feel free to get back on the subject of how wrong the Celtic translation [dunno who did it] is (unless you can suppport it or have some other comment on the subject), rather than lauding Latin because of personal taste or historical influence. I have nothing to contribute on the subject since I have so little knowledge of Celtic languages, which I hope to remedy someday.

btw, don't you mean Balkans- Cmacq might eventually get us to the Baltic, but not just yet ~;)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This is an excerpt from one of my textbooks obtained in a university class on English literature, topical author- Tolkien :


"Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English [I]orc 'demon,' but only because of its phonetic suitability) are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin" (Tolkien 177-178). The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. Edited by Humphrey Carpenter. Houghton Mifflin Co., 2000.

My objection is the comment that Tolkien's orcs are based on Latin, which he clearly says is not the case. He was a reputable scholar, so I'd like to see some evidence saying he was a liar or incorrect in his authority.

Well, "as far as I am concerned" sounds like typical Tolkien defensiveness really, much of his work is now recognised to be a bit flawed and certainly nationalistic. He was good but as a writer and scholar he had serious shortcomings, which is a shame because his essays are very lucid even fifty to sixty years after they were published. I assume in that passage he's talking about the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings etc. and not some other form of Orc, in any case he changed his mind on their origin in his own work anyway


You're right- feel free to get back on the subject of how wrong Ranika's translation is (unless you can suppport it or have some other comment on the subject), rather than lauding Latin because of personal taste or historical influence. I have nothing to contribute on the subject since I have so little knowledge of Celtic languages, which I hope to remedy someday.

btw, don't you mean Balkans- Cmacq might eventually get us to the Baltic, but not just yet ~;)

Yes I mean Balkans.:embarassed:

[Elmetiacos]

I think Prof. Tolkien was entitled to say where he got the word from that he made up!:yes: Whether it was ultimately loaned from Latin isn't really the point; it isn't Gaulish for "boar" nor is it Gaulish for "battle" and it doesn't have either of those meanings, come to that, in Old English or Latin.

[blitzkrieg80]

Both valid points. ~:thumb:

I'm not claiming the word is Germanic, merely that we do not know. The high volume of the word in Latin as well as the lack of cognates could easily be a clue to it being a loanword. I just want to see some evidence, which prob. won't happen since the word barely occurs... so my point is that it's more of 'possibly' than 'certainly'.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I don't think anyone was really saying otherwise, at least not intentionally. In any case, Orca in Latin would be feminine, Orcus would be masculine.

[cmacq]

I wasn't going to bring this up, but since this subject is being beat like a rented mule, I suppose it wouldn't do anymore harm?

As I may have hinted above, there are those that claim an IE origin for Orco, yet another school suggests a non-IE source, into Latin/Italic from the Tyrrhenians. In this case, Orco provides the other face, or aspect, of the 'god of the dead's' duel nature. Herein, Pluto, as the Greek Hades plays good cop, while Orcus was the totally cruel and wickedly evil cop. Orcus was often associated with the Gallic Dispater (the Roman title), as the aspect outlined above. Now, I'm not sure if its use for the name of a divine patron of an island off the northern coast of Scotland supports or detracts from a non-IE genesis theory?

Still, talk of its association with OE in this case, is all one bloody huge Red Herring (as some may say he was indeed, if not in fact a Kelt, please see its use in Vergilius' Georgics). And again, I might say it, that is of course Orc, is not of a Kelt origin, per se. And right, I remember reading that the use of Orkades suggested a female (the lady of the dead) aspect for the islands' patron. A simular usage may be seen in Skye, as in Latin Scitis. Which, although very famous in its own right, may not be from any Kelt tongue, as well?

[Elmetiacos]

Wait - orc actually means a piglet in Old Irish: http://www.dil.ie/results-list.asp?mode=BAS&Fuzzy=1&searchtext=orc&findlet=+&findcol=&sortField=ID&sortDIR=65602&resperpage=10&bhcp=1&respage=3
It can also mean the young of other domestic animals. This originally comes from a PIE *pork'o- meaning a litter of piglets, a "farrow" (I learnt some English there...) which would become *φorko- in proto-Celtic and *orcos in Gaulish.

In this website about Orkney as well as elsewhere on the web:
http://www.orkneyjar.com/placenames/orkney.htm
Irish orc is given the looser (some might say "wrong") translation of "pig" which is probably where the Cordinau Orca name comes from, with the piggy element changed again slightly to mean "boars".

[cmacq]

I thought that you knew that? I didn't want to muddy the water even more with the OI orc as its use was somewhat very limited. It seems to be about the tonal measure of a name, and that's why the latter Gaels (early Medieval) called the Island of Orkhades/Orcades the 'island of the piglets,' as the even latter Norse called it the 'island of seals,' or Orkn. Yet, the Norse use of Orkis may have been another survival of Orcus. Right, evidence that dates to the late neolithic, of swin and seal; as well as ox, sheep, dogs, red deer, eagles, and other raptors have been found on the Orkneys. Yet, as we know all too well, Scotland abounds with place names changed only slightly in sound, but greatly in meaning, passing from one ethnos and lingo to another over thousands of years.

[Elmetiacos]

The orc- element in Orkney goes back to before the Vikings and before the Scots. Unless someone finds a hell of a load of piglet bones in an Orcadian archaeological site, I'll remain dubious about this etymology. But I do think it's probably why "Orca" was included in the unit name, not because anyone knew the Old Irish word independently of its use here.

[Watchman]

Given that domesticated pigs usually dwelt half-wild in the vicinity of the human habitation, and even today readily enough can "go feral" and begin to revert towards their ancestral boar heritage, I wouldn't be so sure the difference between domestic pigs and wild hogs was necessarily regarded as particularly conclusive though...

Just pointing that out.

[cmacq]

I think we agree, that on the island, Italy, and France; Orca was a vestigial feminine form of some early IE or non-IE tongue. And its EB use with men of war in the Keltic Balkans seems a bit off base.