Random thought: Forgiveness

[Fragony]

Spawned by AdrianII's America threat and don't ask me why because I don't know that's just how it works.

We often hear about what a great thing it is to forgive, but isn't someone who is able to forgive the most dangerous person to have around, if he can forgive what was done to him he could also forgive what was done to you, and probably in a much shorter timespan. Wouldn't it be better if we all hold on to our grudges, a little bit of hostility for the better of all.

[Don Corleone]

The forgiveness ethic I believe comes from Jesus Christ directly, and it's one of the few unique theological tenets of Christianity. That being said, very few Christians actually attain the level of spiritual development to practice it on the scale Jesus said was required.

Your point is that forgiving people are careless people, I'm guessing? I suppose, yes they are. The idea is that through understanding and forgiveness, caution will become obsolete. I'm not entirely certain how to reconcicle what Jesus said not only with my own common sense, but some of His own statements which appear to be self-contradictory.

For example, there is the famous 'unforgivable sin' he speaks of which is generally interpreted to mean somebody who knows better attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to other sources (the devil, science, random chance, etcetera). And he warns his followers if they ever cause somebody to turn away from their Christian calling, it would be better for them if they had never been born (something judgemental priests and ministers would do well to heed). And he warns all of us that if we harm children, the best thing we could do for ourselves is to tie a millstone around our neck and jump in a lake, because that's better than anything he'll have in store for us.

So the question becomes, what did he mean with "7 times 70 times" and what exactly does the forgiveness ethic require.

I personally think it means an openness to forgiveness towards others and for ourselves and a capacity to forgive that should in practice be limitless. I don't think the merit is in just pretending that nothing bothers us, but that should others seek forgiveness, we must be prepared to grant it, no matter what our personal thoughts on the matter are.

[Viking]

Spawned by AdrianII's America threat and don't ask me why because I don't know that's just how it works.

We often hear about what a great thing it is to forgive, but isn't someone who is able to forgive the most dangerous person to have around, if he can forgive what was done to him he could also forgive what was done to you, and probably in a much shorter timespan. Wouldn't it be better if we all hold on to our grudges, a little bit of hostility for the better of all.

When you to consider to forgive, something already happened. Forgiving is not the same as not reacting when something bad happens. Being able to forgive merely means that the whole world will not turn blind, to put it like Ghandi.

[Fragony]

Your point is that forgiving people are careless people, I'm guessing? I suppose, yes they are. The idea is that through understanding and forgiveness, caution will become obsolete. I'm not entirely certain how to reconcicle what Jesus said not only with my own common sense, but some of His own statements which appear to be self-contradictory..

Was in no way attacking christianity, just why forgiving is such a good thing. What if it isn't, things only happen because someone allows them to happen at some point, and what is forgiven today will be forgiven tommorow, isn't a permanent state of hostility preferable. How that would apply on anything and most of all complex issues such as politics and war I wouldn't know just wanted to throw it in.

[Don Corleone]

I wasn't trying to be defensive on behalf of Christianity. I just don't see many other ethical systems that hold 'forgiveness' itself up as a final good, in and of itself. No worries there.

And you're right. Americans like to call their country a "Christian nation", but clearly, we've done some pretty vengeful things. The Spanish American War, even if you believe the Maine was detonated by the Spanish (and I don't) springs to mind.

And I don't think American foreign policy is wrong. If the Japanese had come to the White House on Dec 7th, 1941 and said "Uh, we got carried away. Please forgive us", should we have? Had we, wouldn't we be under their control by now?

*Speaking of which, there's an urban legend in American history circles that due to a miscommunication and secrecy on the part of the Japanese military, even with its own diplomatic corps, the ambassador to the US delivered their declaration of war several hours after the first telegraphs of the attack were arriving from Hawaii. Does anyone know the veracity of such claims?

[Husar]

So basically when I wait in line and someone bumps into me, says "oh, sorry" and I say "hey, it's okay, no problem" that's worse than making a big scene, calling the police or beating her/him up?

Okay, maybe you wouldn't apply it to accidental stuff, but even then, that I can forgive others does in no way mean that I will forgive them on the spot or think that their deeds should not have consequences, especially if they had severe consequences for others.

[Don Corleone]

So basically when I wait in line and someone bumps into me, says "oh, sorry" and I say "hey, it's okay, no problem" that's worse than making a big scene, calling the police or beating her/him up?

Okay, maybe you wouldn't apply it to accidental stuff, but even then, that I can forgive others does in no way mean that I will forgive them on the spot or think that their deeds should not have consequences, especially if they had severe consequences for others.

Well, one important qualifier is the detail that the oaf paused to say "oh, sorry". I think Fragony's questioning what if the guy glared at you and just shoved ahead of you in line, would it be wise to just 'forgive him' and let him get away with it. Is that correct, Fragony?

[Fragony]

And you're right. Americans like to call their country a "Christian nation", but clearly, we've done some pretty vengeful things. The Spanish American War, even if you believe the Maine was detonated by the Spanish (and I don't) springs to mind.

And I don't think American foreign policy is wrong. If the Japanese had come to the White House on Dec 7th, 1941 and said "Uh, we got carried away. Please forgive us", should we have? Had we, wouldn't we be under their control by now?


Wasn't talking about america either, should have left out adrian's threat sorry for confusion. Go America mia muca's. Just forgiving in general and why it is supposed to be such a grand thing, ultimatily nothing changes because it keeps the circumstances where things hatch from alive.

[Don Corleone]

Wasn't talking about america either, should have left out adrian's threat sorry for confusion. Go America mia muca's. Just forgiving in general and why it is supposed to be such a grand thing, ultimatily nothing changes because it keeps the circumstances where things hatch from alive.

Right, I'm just using my own country's history as they're yardsticks I'm familiar with, not because I thought you were pointing the finger at us.

I understand what you're saying, that isn't it better to 'clear the air' then to allow problems to fester. I'm not certain where I stand on that. One thing I am pretty sure of... the ideal of forgiveness cannot simply be a matter of one party repeatedly accepting insults and injury from another party without some manner of redress.

In my mind, effective forgiveness by the victim has a prerequirement of a desire for forgiveness by the offender. What good does it do to forgive somebody who doesn't what you think about they did?

[Beirut]

Grudges are like women; find the right one and hold on to it for as long as possible.

It will keep you warm.

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

Caesar forgave Brutus (and Cassius). It didn't go well for him. Mithradates the Great forgave his son Pharnaces, again he died a horrible death. Anyone else starting to notice a pattern here?

Seriously, it depends on the magnitude of the original transgression. Small things should be easily forgiven, large things (Ie: rebellion, murder, war, etc.) not so easily, or even not forgiven at all.

With the Christian angle its actually quite interesting to note that, as Don Corleone mentioned, very few religions, at least as far as I know, have such a major emphasis on forgiveness (although I believe Buddhism does). Please feel free to correct me on this.

As far as the theology of it goes I believe that Jesus took all the blame for humanity's sins, and thus suffered for it, and then recieved forgiveness for said sins, from God? Jesus also forgave humanity for putting him throught he suffering.

More importantly, and I believe that nobody so far has mentioned this, but penance and remorse are also required before eternal forgiveness can be given.

I'd like to point out at this point that I am an Atheist and thus may be completely wrong.

It is also important to note, that just because a dominant religion accepts these viewpoints, doesn't mean that the majority of people follow them.

For myself, I believe forgiveness should be earned rather than given freely, depending on, as I've said, the magnitude of the transgression.

[Husar]

Well, what I also tried to say was you can forgive someone, yet have her/him go through a bit or a bit more of punishment. I also learned that as a christian, God will forgive you but that does not mean that he will never punish you simply because you learn from punishment. Similarly you could forgive the murderer of your daughter for example yet let him stay in prison so he learns his lecture. I don't really think Jesus ever wanted his followers to make fools of themselves either, he was quite enraged himself when he cleaned the temple of those moneylenders etc. inside it but that does not mean he couldn't forgive them.

Well, that's how I see it.

What happens when you keep a grudge are such stupid things as medieval family feuds etc.

[macsen rufus]

IMHO everyone is missing the whole point of forgiveness -- it is not about the offender, but the forgiver.

An act of forgiveness does not say "You have offended me, but I forgive you, get on with your life", rather "I have been offended against, but I will not carry the burden of hatred and hence get on with MY life". Assuming a religious belief, we could also add "and I trust God to deal with you". Forgiveness is a victim-release act, not a perpetrator-release act. Just letting someone off punishment is not forgiveness.

People who cannot forgive, cannot move on, and cannot recover. They fester and amplify the actual hurt they have suffered, and often damage their own nature in doing so. I believe this is where the spiritual value of forgiveness lies.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

IMHO everyone is missing the whole point of forgiveness -- it is not about the offender, but the forgiver.

An act of forgiveness does not say "You have offended me, but I forgive you, get on with your life", rather "I have been offended against, but I will not carry the burden of hatred and hence get on with MY life". Assuming a religious belief, we could also add "and I trust God to deal with you". Forgiveness is a victim-release act, not a perpetrator-release act. Just letting someone off punishment is not forgiveness.

People who cannot forgive, cannot move on, and cannot recover. They fester and amplify the actual hurt they have suffered, and often damage their own nature in doing so. I believe this is where the spiritual value of forgiveness lies.

Thanks, you beat me to it. Saved my wrists from typing. I would add though that without forgiveness punishment becomes merely revenge.

[PBI]

The problem is, we keep making new enemies all the time. Without some mechanism whereby some of our enemies can stop being enemies society would be impossible, as we would all nurse every grudge to the grave and keep adding new ones. Without forgiveness, for example, the UK would still be at war with virtually every country in Europe and much of the rest of the world. On a personal level, I would have long since disowned all of my family over petty disagreements. Sooner or later you have to simply accept that holding a grudge benefits no-one, it is simply amplifying the repurcussions of the original transgression.

As regarding the criminal justice system, forgiveness is irrelevant. The purpose of the criminal justice system is to prevent the offender from commiting further crimes against society, not to exact vengeance on behalf of the victim, so the question of forgiveness is a personal matter between the victim and offender.

[Husar]

I would add though that without forgiveness punishment becomes merely revenge.
That's what I thought as well, maybe my post wasn't clear enough. :sweatdrop:

[Geoffrey S]

Nothing is wrong with forgiveness. It does however imply two sides - not only that someone forgives, but also that someone asks for it to be given. The latter is the problem. Sure, someone may ask to be forgiven, but do they really mean it? At that point it becomes a matter of personal judgement, which may as with all mortal things be flawed.

In my opinion the decision doesn't matter, as long as the motivation behind it is true. No self-deception. Anyway, religious people may be assured that while we can hold temporary judgement on a personal basis, ultimate judgement won't be given by us anyway. We just make do best we can with the decisions we make.

[LittleGrizzly]

Holding grudges has caused mass slaughter all over Europe, while i would say taken down to the personal level it can help in some circumstances (though mostly its better to forgive and forget) on an international level grudges should hold no place!

Except in the football, especially against Germany!

[PBI]

Well, that's the point of football really isn't it, so that we can harbour all our narrow-minded national hatreds and grudges and exact vengeance in a satisfying way without having to slaughter millions of each other's citizens. So OK, grudges allowed in football (and Eurovision).

[Fragony]

Holding grudges has caused mass slaughter all over Europe, while i would say taken down to the personal level it can help in some circumstances (though mostly its better to forgive and forget) on an international level grudges should hold no place!

One could argue that the english/french grudge is what keeps them in check when dealing with eachother, both prefer to keep meddling with eachother to a minimum making it less likely future hostility's will occur. A permanent state of hostility isn't the same thing as a permanent state of war.

As for football, Germany is our mortal enemy but we are jost poking fun at eachother, I am pretty sure the Germans enjoy the rivalry just as much as we do. The dutch hold no grudge against the germans for what happened in WW2, that probably makes us the most dangerous people in the world.

[Husar]

The dutch hold no grudge against the germans for what happened in WW2, that probably makes us the most dangerous people in the world.

Someone invade them already! :whip:

[Fragony]

Someone invade them already! :whip:

What I mean by that is that is that if we don't care what happens to us we certainly won't care for what happens to others. And if have to invade us do leave the shovel at home please these hole's in the beach are dangerous.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Nothing is wrong with forgiveness. It does however imply two sides - not only that someone forgives, but also that someone asks for it to be given. The latter is the problem. Sure, someone may ask to be forgiven, but do they really mean it? At that point it becomes a matter of personal judgement, which may as with all mortal things be flawed.

In my opinion the decision doesn't matter, as long as the motivation behind it is true. No self-deception. Anyway, religious people may be assured that while we can hold temporary judgement on a personal basis, ultimate judgement won't be given by us anyway. We just make do best we can with the decisions we make.

I think you're confusing forgiveness and pardon. Forgiveness is not conditional.

[macsen rufus]

Forgiveness is not conditional

This time you beat me to it :2thumbsup: I was going to add that like love it is unconditional, or it isn't what it claims to be.

And I've also considered a bit further - where forgiveness is expressly conveyed to the offender, it can, on occasion, have such an emotional power as to induce far greater remorse and repentance than the punishment received (ie in criminal proceedings). In that respect it can also be transformative for offenders, but this is not and should not be seen as a primary focus. Then we start straying into restorative justice programmes, which is probably a whole new thread.....

[Kagemusha]

Dont they say that: forgive, but dont forget.

[Strike For The South]

A grudge will kill you on the inside. It is much eaiser to forgive and smile. Grudges are simply peolpes egos getting in the way youre a big tough guy if you can hold a grudge but if it was good enough for Jesus it was good enough for me.

I do not find puhnishment and forgivness synonmus 2 different things.

[rotorgun]

I found it interesting that many of us, including myself think that forgiveness is solely a christian tenet. This is not really the case it seems. (see link).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgiveness

According to the facts, forgiveness is also a practice of Bhuddism, Islam, Hinduism, and Judaism as well. Does anyone know about Shintoism? Isn't that an offshoot of Bhuddism?

As for my personal view, I try to follow the teachings of Christ. That I miserably fail to attain them at times is true, but having some sort of moral guidline has often led to some surprising results in my relationships. There is nothing like telling one's arch enemy that you forgive him or her, and that you'll be praying for them. It completely blows some folks away sometimes. It's like pulling the rug out from under their anger. Sometimes they will even get a bit more angry at first, but usually leaves them stupified as to how to respond. My favorite example of Christ's attitude toward forgiveness is from his sermon on the mount.

First take the beam out of your own eye, then you'll know how to remove the mote from your nieghbor's (paraphrasing)