U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

[ICantSpellDawg]

yes that is true...

Either will make history...either Obama is the first President with black descent or a woman crashes through the ceiling and becomes vp.

but on the other hand..if McCain kicks the bucket in the next 4 years this could be a poisoned gift for her.....she´ll be seen as having been picked just to get the feminist vote and not really deserving of the Presidency.....will she be taken seriously if that happens?

She was chosen because she is the way in which the GOP should move. She has also shown extreme fortitude and professionalism and her youth will excite voters. There were other women in discussion who would have fit the bill nicely, but McCain picked the one with the best personality, the most promise and the most powerful spirit of reform and vision.

Whitman, Rice, Hutchison, and Palin were in the runnings. Whitman represented corporate America which wouldn't have helped as much with independents. Rice represents the Bush administration and is pro-choice. Hutchison was too old and had white hair - any man who was too old or had white hair would'nt have been picked either because they would have looked absurd with McCain. Palin represents the right mix of conservatism, grassroots appeal, executive experience, ethics reform, and personality. She also happens to be a woman. They are half of the population you know...

[Ronin]

She was chosen because she is the way in which the GOP should move. She has also shown extreme fortitude and professionalism and her youth will excite voters. There were other women in discussion who would have fit the bill nicely, but McCain picked the one with the best personality, the most promise and the most powerful spirit of reform and vision.

let´s not kid ourselfs....she was chosen because she´s gonna pick up the vote of the women that are pissed off that Hilary isn´t on the ticket.

I am not saying that McCain could have picked any woman....he obviously selected the most competent one he could find, but the base reasoning he is using is more than obvious.

[Strike For The South]

the utter comedy of it cheers you not at all?

it does until I remember these people make decisions that affect me.:thumbsdown:

[ICantSpellDawg]

let´s not kid ourselfs....she was chosen because she´s gonna pick up the vote of the women that are pissed off that Hilary isn´t on the ticket.

I am not saying that McCain could have picked any woman....he obviously selected the most competent one he could find, but the base reasoning he is using is more than obvious.

How? She is pro-life and a member of the NRA. It is rather shallow to suggest that women will vote for her because she has a vag, tossing out all of their political stances. I think that this targets anyone who was going to vote for Obama just because he is black, conservatives, women who are ideologically neutral and on the fence, and fair minded men who might not want want to be called bigots or feel like cavemen for voting McCain. How many birds did he kill with this one stone? It is simple demographic algebra.

[Tribesman]

This is really wierd , we have all the usual suspects praising such a great choice and how Palin is wonderful and untainted , yet the woman is currently involved as a subject in two seperate ongoing investigations into corruption and abuse of office .
Still at least she is adaptable , she adapted her denials once evidence was presented .

[ICantSpellDawg]

This is really wierd , we have all the usual suspects praising such a great choice and how Palin is wonderful and untainted , yet the woman is currently involved as a subject in two seperate ongoing investigations into corruption and abuse of office .
Still at least she is adaptable , she adapted her denials once evidence was presented .

Tribesman, had you even heard of Palin before today? A bit amateurish to present dirt on her without knowing much about the specifics, eh?

I praise ethical conservatives. She is helping to bring down Alaskan republicans like Don Young and Ted Stevens. Any time i hear that a conservative is being accused of something despicable and the rumors are serious and show a record - I condemn them. God forbid that I defend and promote decent ideological comrades who seem genuine.

[Louis VI the Fat]

This is all a joke, I hope? Paying for college on a grant for winning second place in a beauty contest, twenty months of gubernatorial experience, and you can become VP? :inquisitive:

I understand the strategical considerations and all that. In fact, I marvel at it, even more so than with Biden. But what a joke.

This all really is American Idol.


My money's on a Jack Bauer / David Lee Roth ticket for 2012. :yes:

[Big_John]

david lee roth is older than mccain.

[ICantSpellDawg]

This is all a joke, I hope? Paying for college on a grant for winning second place in a beauty contest, twenty months of gubernatorial experience, and you can become VP? :inquisitive:

I understand the strategical considerations and all that. In fact, I marvel at it, even more so than with Biden. But what a joke.

This all really is American Idol.


My money's on a Jack Bauer / David Lee Roth ticket for 2012. :yes:

Again:


I love how democrats have started calling her unethical because she is associated with oil and corruption. The only problem is that she is on the other side of big oil and corruption. That is like calling Elliot Ness a mobster because he carried a gun and was associated with mob activity in the early 20th century.

Debbie Wasserman, the clueless congresswoman from Florida called her unethical and a slave to big oil on fox news - just because Palin is a Republican she is the devil. I want to hear more from Wassermann.

Divinus - unless you think that McCain will die within days of taking office - by the time Sarah Palin would be president she would have;
-Years of experience as Vice president
-2 years of experience as the governor of the largest State in the Union - bordered by 2 massive foreign nations while being pregnant (with an approval rating of between 80%-90%)
-2 years as the Ethics Commissioner of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission (where she would be the whistleblower of breaches in ethics among her own party)
-Many years as the Mayor of Wassila (where she served as the president of the state council of mayors)
-Many years on the town council of Wassila

She also has normal experiences with private sector work (sports journalism and commercial fishing). Aren't you the kind of guy that complains about rich/corrupt people running the country? Who would you have supported for the vice-presidency? Mitt Romney had 4 years experience as governor of Massachusets with years of private sector experience. That was enough for serious consideration for the presidency and I support him. Do you mean to tell me that because Sarah Palin has had 2 less years in her governorship but an even longer career in government that she is ineligable for the number 2 spot? C'mon.

Give her the old once over and you'll like what you find: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin

Who would have thought, the posters furthest away from U.S. politics and the most characteristically unreasonable - are being unreasonable?

[drone]

I meant pro life Im sorry that was a typo. Im sure she is a nice lady. She had her nice little state and did all sorts of nice little things with it but the Russians Iranians and Chinese dont care for nice and the EU doesn't hunt moose. She is makeup and nothing else. A social conservative who got elected because of her looks could now be talking with ruthless leaders. Im so sad right now

Not really familiar with the way things happen in the upper left hand corner of the country, so please forgive the ignorance here. As a governor in a state isolated from the Union, how much interaction would she have had with the Canadian and Russian government? Fishing disputes, border issues with Canada, that kind of thing?


How do you vilify a beautiful and nice soccer mom?
She's a hockey mom, not a soccer mom. ~;)


I can only hope that McCain's people did some serious research into her past. Biden has already been through the wringer, she is a relative unknown and you know the Dems will dig deep.


My money's on a Jack Bauer / David Lee Roth ticket for 2012.Jack Bauer tortures for sure, and people will not soon forgive David Lee Roth for subjecting us to "Van Hagar".

[discovery1]

This is all a joke, I hope? Paying for college on a grant for winning second place in a beauty contest, twenty months of gubernatorial experience, and you can become VP?

I guess McCain wants a vp and not an intern.

[Ronin]

How? She is pro-life and a member of the NRA.

well..she is a republican...you wouldn´t expect him to choose a hippy :laugh4:



It is rather shallow to suggest that women will vote for her because she has a vag, tossing out all of their political stances. I think that this targets anyone who was going to vote for Obama just because he is black

so let me make sure I am understanding you right....

It is rather shallow to think people might vote for her just because she´s a woman...but she might take votes away from "anyone who was going to vote for Obama just because he is black".....I see the logic :juggle2: :laugh4:




Tribesman, had you even heard of Palin before today?


isn´t the fact that nobody had heard of vp candiate before the point that is under discussion here? :smash:

[Devastatin Dave]

.

Sorry, but Commander and Chief of the Old Guy Boy Scouts is not good enough to command the most powerful military in the history of human existence.

And Obama/Biden ticket is more qualified? Who you going to vote for then?:help:

[ICantSpellDawg]

Most people haven't heard of Biden either (my mentally deficient roomate needed to be told that Obama had picked his running mate this morning - needless to say he had no idea who Biden was). The ignorance of the majority doesn't mean much. Go back to my earlier posts or the many on various bi-partisan websites. I wrote numerous ones about Sarah - I guess people feigning ignorance neglected to read them. She was part of McCain's B-team VP prospects since he clinched the nod (which I had thought were more likely than the A team).

[PanzerJaeger]

This is all a joke, I hope? Paying for college on a grant for winning second place in a beauty contest, twenty months of gubernatorial experience, and you can become VP?

Versus the top of the democratic ticket... she has oodles of experience.



This is really wierd , we have all the usual suspects praising such a great choice and how Palin is wonderful and untainted , yet the woman is currently involved as a subject in two seperate ongoing investigations into corruption and abuse of office .
Still at least she is adaptable , she adapted her denials once evidence was presented .

Versus the top of the democratic ticket.... she didn't get a house from Tony Rezko. :laugh4:

(..and she's not a plagiarist..)

[Devastatin Dave]

Drone I will accept that talk from Dev Dave as midgets are known for their short tempers but as a native you should know better :laugh:

Excellent!!! My kind or retort. By the way, I loved you in Broke Back Mountain.:beam:

[Tribesman]

Tribesman, had you even heard of Palin before today? A bit amateurish to present dirt on her without knowing much about the specifics, eh?

What specifics ?
Is she a subject of the federal investigation of corrupt payments to Alaskan politicians , the same politicians people seem so happy that she fought against for their corruption , but politicians that were getting money from the same people who were giving her money ?
OK she didn't get money from them on the same scale as the other politicians , but at that time she was only a very small cog in the political machinery
Hasn't she long denied any wrongdoing at all whatsoever in any way by either herself her family and her staff around the issue with her brother in law and his employers , denied any involvement by anyone in the slightest .....until it turned out the police had recorded the phone calls and detailed the meetings ?

[Lemur]

david lee roth is older than mccain.
That had me laughing, so I had to check it out. Seems Johnny Mac has twenty years on DLR, so no-go to your talking point. And Jack Bauer is fictional, so we can make him whatever age we like.

-edit-

As to the inevitable comparisons to Obama, I'll just quote that right-wing sex symbol, Karl Rove (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuh7DM7JWSk):


With all due respect again to Governor Kaine, he's been a governor for three years. He's been able but undistinguished. I don't think people could really name a big, important thing that he's done ... [Kaine] was mayor of the 105th largest city in America. And again, with all due respect to Richmond, Virginia, it's smaller than Chula Vista, California; Aurora, Colorado; Mesa, or Gilbert, Arizona; North Las Vegas, or Henderson, Nevada. It's not a big town.

As a blogger (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/rove-on-veeps-a.html) so rightly puts it:


Palin has been governor for less than two years of a state with 600,000 people, compared to Virginia's 8 million. Before that, she was mayor of a town with 6,000 inhabitants, compared to Richmond's 200,000. Someone able to become president of the United States at a moment's notice? Politically, I have no idea how this will play. As an act of presidential governing, as McCain's first real presidential decision, it was and is fundamentally unserious.

[KukriKhan]

This is really wierd , we have all the usual suspects praising such a great choice and how Palin is wonderful and untainted , yet the woman is currently involved as a subject in two seperate ongoing investigations into corruption and abuse of office .
Still at least she is adaptable , she adapted her denials once evidence was presented .

I have to concede that the media vetting of Gov Palin will be an important factor in the next 2-3 weeks. Johnnie Mac has to be hoping she has no other skeletons in her closet right about now. If his search committee did a thorough job, no sweat, and he's made a bold move. If not, and some significant dirt comes out, then shame on them, and McCain can kiss the election good-bye.

The one local (Alaskan) newspaper source I've heard interviewed didn't like Gov Palin very much, but didn't levy any specific criticisms.

I guess we'll see.

[Crazed Rabbit]

What specifics ?
Is she a subject of the federal investigation of corrupt payments to Alaskan politicians , the same politicians people seem so happy that she fought against for their corruption , but politicians that were getting money from the same people who were giving her money ?
OK she didn't get money from them on the same scale as the other politicians , but at that time she was only a very small cog in the political machinery
Hasn't she long denied any wrongdoing at all whatsoever in any way by either herself her family and her staff around the issue with her brother in law and his employers , denied any involvement by anyone in the slightest .....until it turned out the police had recorded the phone calls and detailed the meetings ?

Links, info, etc? I want to see the exact info you claim to be presenting.

CR

[PanzerJaeger]

That had me laughing, so I had to check it out. Seems Johnny Mac has twenty years on DLR, so no-go to your talking point. And Jack Bauer is fictional, so we can make him whatever age we like.

-edit-

As to the inevitable comparisons to Obama, I'll just quote that right-wing sex symbol, Karl Rove (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuh7DM7JWSk):


With all due respect again to Governor Kaine, he's been a governor for three years. He's been able but undistinguished. I don't think people could really name a big, important thing that he's done ... [Kaine] was mayor of the 105th largest city in America. And again, with all due respect to Richmond, Virginia, it's smaller than Chula Vista, California; Aurora, Colorado; Mesa, or Gilbert, Arizona; North Las Vegas, or Henderson, Nevada. It's not a big town.

As a blogger (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/rove-on-veeps-a.html) so rightly puts it:


Palin has been governor for less than two years of a state with 600,000 people, compared to Virginia's 8 million. Before that, she was mayor of a town with 6,000 inhabitants, compared to Richmond's 200,000. Someone able to become president of the United States at a moment's notice? Politically, I have no idea how this will play. As an act of presidential governing, as McCain's first real presidential decision, it was and is fundamentally unserious.


Its funny how your comparisons have nothing to do with Obama, but a guy he didn't even pick!

Lets compare her executive experience to someone... anyone... actually on the dem ticket, shall we? :laugh4:

[woad&fangs]

Links, info, etc? I want to see the exact info you claim to be presenting.

CR

ditto. I've seen the stuff about her brother in law but I haven't heard about any corruption charges.

[yesdachi]

I think she is a fine choice and even if McCain kicks the bucket she couldn’t do worse than what we have seen the last few years.

The fact she is a woman will sway some of the female voters and because she is a decent conservative it will keep the party faithfuls content and maybe even draw some of the conservative swing voters. Maybe the choice is a little on the American Idol side but I can not think of a better choice if the goal is getting elected.

If we were actually picking the 2 best candidates to run our country none of the contenders we have seen in the last 30 years would have ever made it onto the ballots.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I just realized that neither McCain nor Palin are lawyers. Obama and Biden are both lawyers.

[Tribesman]

Links, info, etc? I want to see the exact info you claim to be presenting.

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
The link and all the info have already been posted .
What you do rabbit is click on a link , then follow the links stories to their source by clicking on them where they are listed at the bottom , then at those sources you click on the updated and related stories links they convieniently provide .
Its easy isn't it:yes:


I have to concede that the media vetting of Gov Palin will be an important factor in the next 2-3 weeks. Johnnie Mac has to be hoping she has no other skeletons in her closet right about now.
One advantage of choosing a young candidate is that they have less of a past to contain skeletons .

[Crazed Rabbit]

Ah, I see. Being obtuse again.

CR

[KukriKhan]

Palin's 'trooper-gate' AK investigation (http://www.ktva.com/ci_10026165?source=most_viewed)

Havn't found a Fed investigation yet.

[drone]

http://vpilf.com/

:laugh4:

Edit->Safe for work.

[Incongruous]

This is all a joke, I hope? Paying for college on a grant for winning second place in a beauty contest, twenty months of gubernatorial experience, and you can become VP? :inquisitive:

I understand the strategical considerations and all that. In fact, I marvel at it, even more so than with Biden. But what a joke.

This all really is American Idol.


My money's on a Jack Bauer / David Lee Roth ticket for 2012. :yes:

Jesus, isn't your bloody horse high?
Get off for God's sake, so what if she could pay for a uni education by utilising her assets? What angers you so much about it? Not enough experience in cafes? What a load of crap.

Twenty months as a fairly successful politician, yeah how bloody awful, at least she hasn't drawn a bloody halo round her head.

[Tribesman]

Ah, I see. Being obtuse again.

Obtuse ?
Possibly , you should know by now that I will usually only post a direct link once you have well and truly dug yourself into a hole .
Its more fun to see how far people will go in insisting that they are right before they actually check to see if they are wrong .

[ICantSpellDawg]

Palin's 'trooper-gate' AK investigation (http://www.ktva.com/ci_10026165?source=most_viewed)

Havn't found a Fed investigation yet.

The investigation is starting TODAY. Coincidence? Hmmmmm.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Obtuse ?
Possibly , you should know by now that I will usually only post a direct link once you have well and truly dug yourself into a hole .
Its more fun to see how far people will go in insisting that they are right before they actually check to see if they are wrong .

Haha. Showing his flimsy off the cuff arguments off to be well thought out, deeply backed up masterpieces.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Obtuse ?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/obtuse


Possibly , you should know by now that I will usually only post a direct link once you have well and truly dug yourself into a hole .
Its more fun to see how far people will go in insisting that they are right before they actually check to see if they are wrong .

Alternatively, you could post a link so people can make sure that your argument is or is not based on fact. You also need to look at the possible option that you are not always right. :bow:

[CountArach]

I'm going to say it - I'm a little scared. In my head I know that there aren't enough moronic Clinton supporters out there (I'll get pollin on that later... I'm sure) to really swing too much, but still...

This certainly means CLinton will be far more visible on the campaign trail.

[KukriKhan]

Still coming up short on a Fed Investigation on Palin, tho' there is plenty of Fed activity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_political_corruption_probe) on a large number of other Alaskan poli's.

-edit-
On a separate issue: I keep hearing the TV talking heads saying: "America chooses a President, not a Vice President", to reduce the importance of VP picks in general. I wonder if that's true. Has anyone seen polls on previous elections to support this so-called "common sense" assertion? Maybe I'm weird, but I've always considered the VP when casting my ballot.

[Crazed Rabbit]

[Edit: For dear old CA]
*maniacal laughing*
Haha!! Know fear, socialist! Your creed shall fail!

CR

No offense ~;p

[Tribesman]

Alternatively, you could post a link so people can make sure that your argument is or is not based on fact.
Why should I make it easy ?
If people want to find out if my arguement is OK or bollox then surely the onus is on them to find out the facts .
And of course since my post was about peoples opinions they had stated then surely it would be normal to expect them to have reached that opinion by establishing the facts in the first place intead of just plucking an opinion from thin air .

So then you can take comments like this....

Haha. Showing his flimsy off the cuff arguments off to be well thought out, deeply backed up masterpieces. ....
and know that that poster is actually making a post without any thought at all and has not even considered checking their pre-concieved "ideas" . So while my post is obtuse as it is rather blunt , that post is obtuse as it is rather dim and lacking in intellect .:yes:

Keep digging there Kukri , you are onto the right investigation , though as I said Palin recieved a lot less money from those executives than the others did

[Devastatin Dave]

What's wrong guys, are you a scared of a girl?

[Devastatin Dave]

One more point, then I check back later...
This COMPLETELY erases Obama's "I have a Scheme" speech from last night. Do a little channel surfing (atleast here in the good ol US of KKK A as Obama's old spiritual advisor so famously said) and there is NO coverage of it at this time. Even you Obama worshipping Zealots out there have to love this master stroke of political timing. :beam:

[woad&fangs]

As an Obama worshipping Zealot I completely agree with you:jester:

[seireikhaan]

Mkay...

Hold on. Dear conservatives on this board: what is it about her that you like so much in comparison to Obama? What has she done that has set her so far apart from people like Romney that make her more able to rule in Johnnie Mac's stead? The only thing I've seen that's without doubt positive is taking on the old crooks that lurked around Alaska politics. However, I have found nothing else that shows me she's got anything that makes her so much more qualified than Obama to govern this country. Just because you like how her beliefs align doesn't mean she actually would know what to do if, God forbid, something happened that resulted in her graduating from VP to Prez.

As for the obvious reason she was chosen: I see a couple of ways this could backfire badly. One- (and I'm coming from what I believe to be the perspective of the average frothing Hillary supporter) "Where's this woman come from? Look how hard Hillary's worked during her life for women! She endured this whole campaign, and this woman thinks she can just become the first woman in Prez office just by getting picked by some old guy! She hasn't been fighting for us this whole time! She's done nothing! We can't sacrafice Hillary's efforts for her!"
Two- People look at this whole thing as clear hypocrisy on Johnnie's part, and he then subsequently lays off the 'experience' card in case of backlash, thus removing his greatest advantage over Obama.


PS- If Obama becomes President, I propose we all refer to him as Obama-Sama.(Just because it'd be appropriate, and rhyme to boot ~D)

[KukriKhan]

What's wrong guys, are you a scared of a girl?

https://jimcee.homestead.com/files/xena_20020307_fight.gif

[Redleg]

So if I were to say to you that the property tax is unfair and only in place because liberals hate rich people and want them to pay more taxes on their mansions what would you say? Your argument defeats itself when you argue in favor of property tax.

If you were to say it was unfair, I would say you are incorrect, property tax is far more fair of a tax then income, since it is a direct tax on ownership not wages.




The simple fact is that a rich businessman benefits more financially from infrastructure than a poor person does and so taxing them to a higher degree is not unfair.

Hence you missed the arguement about property taxes. Property taxes indeed tax the rich to a higher degree then the poor. Especially owners of commerical property




I drive to work and make money at work, which I pay taxes on. The businessmen drives to work and tells 5,000 truckers where to deliver their goods that day all over the country, and pays higher taxes. Usage is clearly not the same :dizzy2:

Yep hince the use of property tax on the trucks and the property that the businessman owns. So as portioned to his income tax the usage is clearly the same. Income tax does not equate to usage tax, property and sales taxes are what constitute that usage tax. For instance that same businessman pays more in fuel taxes to support the infrastructure of the highways that he has more use of.




If society became unstable my income would drop by thousands and the businessman's income would drop by millions.


Which does not support your arguement at all

[Ice]

Why should I make it easy ?
If people want to find out if my arguement is OK or bollox then surely the onus is on them to find out the facts .


I should try to that with my next term paper. I wonder which mark I would receive? :dizzy2:

[ICantSpellDawg]

Mkay...

Hold on. Dear conservatives on this board: what is it about her that you like so much in comparison to Obama? What has she done that has set her so far apart from people like Romney that make her more able to rule in Johnnie Mac's stead? The only thing I've seen that's without doubt positive is taking on the old crooks that lurked around Alaska politics. However, I have found nothing else that shows me she's got anything that makes her so much more qualified than Obama to govern this country. Just because you like how her beliefs align doesn't mean she actually would know what to do if, God forbid, something happened that resulted in her graduating from VP to Prez.

She isn't running for president! Like I've said - Obama will be president with little experience and zero executive experience / If Palin ever becomes president it will be after she is vice president for a while and has already had a nice amount of executive experience. The main point is that we have someone thin on experience in the backup spot, the Democrats have someone thin on experience in the top spot. Those things are not really that similar.

On your first point - what do we like better about her - nearly everything! Why are we conservatives? She doesn't seem like an ideologue in the areas where Republicans have been failing in the polls.

I was listening to David Gergen lambaste Palin because he has said she has no economic experience. What? What economic experience does Obama have?

[Tribesman]

I should try to that with my next term paper. I wonder which mark I would receive?
Wow thats a good one , a good example of dim thinking anyway .
Since the person marking the paper should have a good knowledge of the facts then your mark would be fairly good if you found out what it was you were writing about before you wrote it .

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Why should I make it easy ?
If people want to find out if my arguement is OK or bollox then surely the onus is on them to find out the facts .

When you make a point, it is up to you to back it up.

[ICantSpellDawg]

When you make a point, it is up to you to back it up.

Don't get into it with him. Tribesman prides himself on citational incompetence and meaningless games that make him (and only him) laugh. I believe that most viewers on this board have come to the correct conclusion regarding both his nihilistic wit and irritating argumentative style.

Neither of those judgments are meant to be offensive (except the one about his citations) - I am open to better adjectives to describe his wit and style (which I agree that he has).

[KukriKhan]

One thing is clear: org backroom is interested in the topic; over 100 posts in less than 12 hours since CountArach first noted the rumored Palin pick.

Nice job, fellas. :bow:

[Devastatin Dave]

One thing is clear: org backroom is interested in the topic; over 100 posts in less than 12 hours since CountArach first noted the rumored Palin pick.

Nice job, fellas. :bow:

And a even better job by the Republicans!!! I've hardly seen anything from the "Ihave a Scheme" speech that Obamamessiah preached to his flock last night.

[Tribesman]

When you make a point, it is up to you to back it up.

Is it ?
I thought it would be up to those who wish to challenge the point to show it to be untrue .
That should be easy enough , it would only involve showing that Palin is not involved with the reciept of money from VECO executives and that her staff did not pressure the police using her name over her ex brother in law and that the police have not produced tapes of the phone calls or that she has not changed her story over that event .
Though of course you do run into a slight problem there Mars , as when you try to find such evidence to show that my point is invalid and untrue the facts will contradict you .
But its OK , you are free to maintain that I am wrong and that you despite not trying to learn anything about the subject are right .

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Is it ?

Yes, it is. What did they teach you in school during debates and essay writing?



Though of course you do run into a slight problem there Mars , as when you try to find such evidence to show that my point is invalid and untrue the facts will contradict you .
But its OK , you are free to maintain that I am wrong and that you despite not trying to learn anything about the subject are right .

I couldn't care less whether you were right or wrong, and I'm not arguing the issue with you. You're assuming something untrue. What I would like you to do, and I'm sure much of the .Org would agree with me on this, when you make a point, you back it up, unless it is considered very common knowledge (sky is blue, Germany had Nazi government from 1933 to 1945, London is in Britain, etc.).

[ICantSpellDawg]

The fact is that she is under investigation - one that started today that links the removal of a state employee with the Palin administration's frustration that the state employee wouldn't fire a former in-law who abused his wife (Palin's family member). The person making the claim insists that his refusal to fire that person is the reason for his termination while the Palin administration insists that the employee was terminated for poor performance in his job.

Anyone speculating about "what really happened" would probably be best served to avoid such accusations, particularly if they had no idea who Sarah Palin was before this morning (especially if they hate citation.)

[Xiahou]

She isn't running for president! Like I've said - Obama will be president with little experience and zero executive experience / If Palin ever becomes president it will be after she is vice president for a while and has already had a nice amount of executive experience. The main point is that we have someone thin on experience in the backup spot, the Democrats have someone thin on experience in the top spot. Those things are not really that similar.Yup. If a VP comes to power, they're stepping into a role they should, by then, be familiar with. Most or all of the machinery, appointments, ect. would also already be in place. I like Palin (so far), but I wouldn't have wanted her in the top spot on the ticket yet. Similarly, I think Obama would've been much better off as a VP candidate this time around.

Frankly, I think failure to at least bring Hillary in on the ticket was a fatal error on the part of the Obama campaign. McCain exploited this by choosing a successful female for disenchanted feminist Hillary supporters to vote for and at the same time energized the GOP base by picking a gun-toting conservative with strong anti-corruption credentials for his running mate.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Frankly, I think failure to at least bring Hillary in on the ticket was a fatal error on the part of the Obama campaign. McCain exploited this by choosing a successful female for disenchanted feminist Hillary supporters to vote for and at the same time energized the GOP base by picking a gun-toting conservative with strong anti-corruption credentials for his running mate.

I was hoping that the democrats would fall for the "you don't need Hillary, she will be poison for the ticket", angle. I was so profoundly afraid of that ticket. Good job, dems.

[Tribesman]

Yes, it is. What did they teach you in school during debates and essay writing?

School ?????:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

School ?????:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

What, you didn't go? ~:confused:

[KukriKhan]

School ?????:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

LOL.

Let's stay on topic please. Personal communication is best served by our Private Messaging feature.

[ICantSpellDawg]

LOL.

Let's stay on topic please. Personal communication is best served by our Private Messaging feature.

Personal tit-for tat should be ok as long as it doesn't cross any lines. I'm not talking about his hideous back-hair or body odor - I'm talking about his style in argument. I have stated that Tribesman can be witty.

[KukriKhan]

Personal tit-for tat should be ok as long as it doesn't cross any lines. I'm not talking about his hideous back-hair or body odor - I'm talking about his style in argument. I have stated that Tribesman can be witty.

...and amazingly well-informed, and quickly so, you must admit.

As you may have noticed, we (mod staff) look the other way at non-rules-violating personal sparring for 4, 5, 6 posts, because such is part of the normal give-and-take in a conversation; but we step in when it takes over a topic, driving the subject aside while posters discuss each other in depth, instead of the subject at-hand.

Likewise, we try to not derail topics by too much mod interference in-thread. A quiet word to the wise is our preferred method, to re-rail topics, as it were.

Anymore discussion of personal tit-for-tat policies here should go to the backroom watchtower subforum.

[ICantSpellDawg]

We should have a sub-forum for personal bashing.

[Marshal Murat]

This is one of the best moves by McCain.

He has stopped the rolling tide of congratulations for Obama in it's tracks. When I went to school today (where I get my edjumacation education) it was all "Did you watch the Obama speech last night?" By the last bell, it was "Did you hear about McCain's Vice-Presidential pick?" That is how you start a Labor Day weekend, with plenty of drinking, football watching, and meeting. Everyone will be talking about Sarah Paulin.

He chose a dark-horse, someone with anti-corruption credentials, and someone who began as a town mayor! It seems to invoke the 'American Dream' and the underdog like Obama did. Hillary began as a 'favorite', and American voters dislike a 'sure thing'. (Maybe that's why I don't like the All Blacks?) Choosing a female also allows us 'anti-feminists' to say "It's the candidate stupid!" That's why I didn't want to vote for Hillary, because she is a monster, not because she is female.

Those two, combined, mean that she, McCain, and the McCain Staff will practically be running through the networks, talking about the pick, about Sarah Paulin, about what McCain is thinking, about her stances, her history. Unless Obama does something to up-the-ante (will he declare himself son-of-God?), McCain will be on the Sunday talk-shows.

It does raise the question of McCain's age, and that is a very dangerous topic in and of itself. His age will definitely make some of us voters wonder 'How long until he croaks'. It's like that ABC drama about the first female president.

So one wonders who would be the Senate President?

[Devastatin Dave]

We should have a sub-forum for personal bashing.

Now that's a forum I would LOVE to moderate!!! Please Mods, make it happen. I would call it "The Pit"
Tuff, you are the man!!!

[Devastatin Dave]

Unless Obama does something to up-the-ante (will he declare himself son-of-God?)

No need, the main stream media and foriegn outlets have done that for (H)im.:laugh4:

[CountArach]

[Edit: For dear old CA]
*maniacal laughing*
Haha!! Know fear, socialist! Your creed shall fail!

CR

No offense ~;p
:laugh4:

*Desperately attempts to change topic*

A newly published poll of Latinos (http://www.democracycorps.com/strategy/2008/08/consolidating-the-hispanic-vote/?section=Analysis) shows Obama with a 45 point lead, the best for a Democrat.

Gallup daily has Obama with +8 and Rasmussen tracker has him at +4, but most of those interviews were before Obama's acceptance speech. The acceptance speech was watched by 38 million people, doubling John Kerry's amount.

*Hopes that he can bombard people with numbers so that they will stop mocking him* :wink:

[PanzerJaeger]

Hold on. Dear conservatives on this board: what is it about her that you like so much in comparison to Obama?

Well thats easy enough. She's conservative and he's liberal. :idea2:



What has she done that has set her so far apart from people like Romney that make her more able to rule in Johnnie Mac's stead?

Nothing. Romney would have been a good pick as well. However, passing over one good pick for another doesn't really bother me. Look for Romney in Mac's cabinet.


The only thing I've seen that's without doubt positive is taking on the old crooks that lurked around Alaska politics.

Do some research. She embodies everything that the Republican party should be about... the anti-Ted Stevens.



However, I have found nothing else that shows me she's got anything that makes her so much more qualified than Obama to govern this country.

Govern is the key word. Which one has actually done it?


Just because you like how her beliefs align doesn't mean she actually would know what to do if, God forbid, something happened that resulted in her graduating from VP to Prez.

I'm happy that the bottom of our ticket has almost 20 years more experience administrating government than theirs combined. Of course, thats not hard to do when Obama and the old plagiarist have a grand total of 0 years, months, days or even seconds in any sort of executive government position. :dizzy2:

I don't know about Hillary voters, but I can tell you this has energized the base. :yes:

[CountArach]

Did anyone consider what will happen in the VP debate (Apart from DevDave :wink: )? Palin is going to get SLAUGHTERED. A 2 year Governor vs one of the most experienced Senators...

Also... the LOLPalins begin...
https://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r44/CountArach/wrinklez.jpg

[PanzerJaeger]

Did anyone consider what will happen in the VP debate (Apart from DevDave :wink: )? Palin is going to get SLAUGHTERED. A 2 year Governor vs one of the most experienced Senators...

Apparently she's very good, while Biden is known for being aggressive, personal and mean spirited. I wouldn't count her out.

[Devastatin Dave]

Apparently she's very good, while Biden is known for being aggressive, personal and mean spirited. I wouldn't count her out.

Not only that, but his "Obama the first CLEAN BLACK MAN" to run for office comment, his "you have to have an INDIAN ACCENT" at any convenience store comment, I simply can't wait to hear what assinine thing he will say to the woman. This should be very revealing. I wonder how long will it take him to say "sweety" or honey" to her. Ah, the true face of the democrat party...:laugh4:

[ICantSpellDawg]

Apparently she's very good, while Biden is known for being aggressive, personal and mean spirited. I wouldn't count her out.

I like that she isn't being given much debate credit. I can't find a gubernatorial debate which she has been in, but I hope they keep underestimating her.

[CountArach]

There is no way she can compete with Biden on stuff like Foreign policy:

"I've been so focused on state government, I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq." - Sarah Palin, March 1st, 2007

[GeneralHankerchief]

If Palin even comes close to holding her own, she will be pronounced the winner just because of the expectations factor. Anything less than a complete destruction of Palin's arguments by Biden will be a loss for him.

[Divinus Arma]

This nonsense about Alaska being the largest, geographically, state in the union has got to stop.

As the old saying goes, size doesn't matter... :laugh4:



Stupidville. Population: McCain.

[ICantSpellDawg]

This nonsense about Alaska being the largest, geographically, state in the union has got to stop.

As the old saying goes, size doesn't matter... :laugh4:



Stupidville. Population: McCain.

I just hope that impossible-former-marine-conspiracy-theorists aren't a strong voting bloc.

[CountArach]

Palin is a fan of Obama's energy plan (http://www.gov.state.ak.us/archive-59841.html)

August 4, 2008, Fairbanks, Alaska - Governor Sarah Palin today responded to the energy plan put forward by the presumptive Democratic nominee for President, Illinois Senator Barack Obama.

“I am pleased to see Senator Obama acknowledge the huge potential Alaska’s natural gas reserves represent in terms of clean energy and sound jobs,” Governor Palin said. “The steps taken by the Alaska State Legislature this past week demonstrate that we are ready, willing and able to supply the energy our nation needs.”

In a speech given in Lansing, Michigan, Senator Obama called for the completion of the Alaska natural gas pipeline, stating, “Over the next five years, we should also lease more of the National Petroleum Reserve in Alaska for oil and gas production. And we should also tap more of our substantial natural gas reserves and work with the Canadian government to finally build the Alaska natural gas pipeline, delivering clean natural gas and creating good jobs in the process.”

Governor Palin also acknowledged the Senator’s proposal to offer $1,000 rebates to those struggling with the high cost of energy.

“We in Alaska feel that crunch and are taking steps to address it right here at home,” Governor Palin said. “This is a tool that must be on the table to buy us time until our long-term energy plans can be put into place. We have already enjoyed the support of Alaska Senator Ted Stevens, and it is gratifying to see Senator Obama get on board.”

The Governor did question the means to pay for Obama’s proposed rebate — a windfall profits tax on oil companies. In Alaska, the state’s resource valuation system, ACES, provides strong incentives for companies to re-invest their profits in new production.

“Windfall profits taxes alone prevent additional investment in domestic production. Without new supplies from American reserves, our dependency and addiction to foreign sources of oil will continue,” Governor Palin said.
Errr... and big oil, apparently.

[woad&fangs]

awsome...
https://img98.imageshack.us/img98/741/sarahpalinvikings3ki6.jpg

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Haha, McCain is such a sucker. He's that afraid of the post convention poll bump that he throws in a surprise VP--a ditches his ace card of experience. You'll all be saying palin is a bad choice in a few weeks.

I'm not sure what Tuff means when he says the investigation started today--remember that august is the eight month of the year.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

It'll be fun to watch as we learn more about palin.


At the end of her mayorship, Palin was behind the construction of the Wasilla Multi-Use Sports Complex, a $15 million multi-use indoor ice arena, as her legacy. However, developer Gary Lundgren acquired the land before Palin could. Without the deed, Palin decided to build the arena there anyway, and attempted to acquire the land through eminent domain, but a federal appeals court ruled in favor of Lundgren. The case is in the process of being resolved in the courts.[13] It will cost Wasilla at least an additional $1.67 million to acquire the land[14] and Wasilla is still attempting to cover the budget shortfall by cutting library services, postponing capital improvement projects, and raising fees.[15]



My bet is she'll really help McCain out for a few weeks, but how can he criticize obama on experience when palin had troubles running a small town?


Excellent ~:)

[Marshal Murat]

Sasaki, who else has been involved in shady land dealings?


My bet is she'll really help McCain out for a few weeks, but how can he criticize Obama on experience when Palin had troubles running a small town?

I think that experience is a two-way street. It seems to me that it invalidates Obama's lack of experience. If he 'deserves' to be President, why can't someone with executive experience but lack of foreign affairs experience also try for Vice-President? Obama now needs to run on policy, because he can't run on change, because the Republicans can now bat against his change with change.
This is turning into an even more enjoyable season than I ever imagined.

[PanzerJaeger]

There is no way she can compete with Biden on stuff like Foreign policy:

The art of debate is all about mental pace. Anybody can be prepared, but if you can't point-counter-point with speed and effectiveness, its all for nought. I heard from a reporter who covered Palin's run for governer that she is very good.

Hell, you and I probably know just as much about Iraq as Biden.. and soon Palin will too.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Sasaki, who else has been involved in shady land dealings?


The quote doesn't make any reference to shady land dealings?



I think that experience is a two-way street. It seems to me that it invalidates Obama's lack of experience. If he 'deserves' to be President, why can't someone with executive experience but lack of foreign affairs experience also try for Vice-President? Obama now needs to run on policy, because he can't run on change, because the Republicans can now bat against his change with change.
This is turning into an even more enjoyable season than I ever imagined.

McCain can't make a big deal out of obama's experience when he's 72 with an inexperienced vp (funny quote from someone on his staff "most doctors think he'll live at least four more years"). Obama can still compare McCain to bush.

[CountArach]

Sasaki, who else has been involved in shady land dealings?
McCain :yes:

The art of debate is all about mental pace. Anybody can be prepared, but if you can't point-counter-point with speed and effectiveness, its all for nought. I heard from a reporter who covered Palin's run for governer that she is very good.

Hell, you and I probably know just as much about Iraq as Biden.. and soon Palin will too.
Hmmm, that's very true, but most debates aren't in that format. Most are 60 seconds of answering with a 30 second rebuttal. Of course, your second paragraph means that experience should never be an issue for a candidate.

More Palin goodness... Couresty of Politico (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12987.html)

— Palin didn’t back McCain in the primary. She stayed neutral in Alaska’s January primary — perhaps on account of McCain’s opposition to drilling in ANWR. “A lot of us are sitting back and waiting to see if there will be new players in there," she said in 2007. "That’s probably why that box that says ‘none of the above’ is so popular right now."

— Mayoral performance. Palin, who portrays herself as a fiscal conservative, racked up nearly $20 million in long-term debt as mayor of the tiny town of Wasilla — that amounts to $3,000 per resident. She argues that the debt was needed to fund improvements.

— Stevens and Young, redux. Palin has distanced herself from the state’s two most popular politicians, but both appeared at Palin fundraisers during her 2006 gubernatorial bid.

— The environment. As governor, Palin vetoed wind power and clean coal projects, including a 50-megawatt wind farm on Fire Island and a clean coal facility in Healy that had been mired in a dispute between local and state governments.

— And, maybe, censorship. According to the Frontiersman newspaper, Wasilla’s library director, Mary Ellen Emmons, said that Palin asked her outright if she "could live with censorship of library books.” Palin later dismissed the conversation as a “rhetorical” exercise.
Also how could I resist this (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12969.html)?

In an interview just a month ago, she dissed the job, saying it didn’t seem “productive.”

In fact, she said she didn’t know what the vice president does.
I can see myself having a lot of fun with this pick :laugh4:

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Here's some stuff that I don't have a source for at the moment:

McCain only met palin once before selecting her
Palin thinks abortions should be illegal even in the case of rape or incest

****

The ethics investigation is interesting...seems it will wrap up just days before the election. Originally she denied that her office had pushed to have the state trooper fired and then later retracted that denial after some incriminating phone call records were uncovered. Oops.




Hmm, this a good quote also:


Q: Would you continue state funding for the proposed Knik Arm and Gravina Island bridges?

Palin: Yes. I would like to see Alaska's infrastructure projects built sooner rather than later. The window is now - while our congressional delegation is in a strong position to assist.


Palin's government accepted the federal money would have been spent on the Gravina Island Bridge, had Palin not canceled the bridge because the federal government wanted Alaska to pay for part of it. This gained the state of Alaska over $200 million, which it could spend however it wants. In 2008, the state gave each resident $1200.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The art of debate is all about mental pace. Anybody can be prepared, but if you can't point-counter-point with speed and effectiveness, its all for nought. I heard from a reporter who covered Palin's run for governer that she is very good.

Hell, you and I probably know just as much about Iraq as Biden.. and soon Palin will too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XberX_t-WvI

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Wheeeeee!


State Senate President Lyda Green said she thought it was a joke when someone called her at 6 a.m. to tell her the news.

"She's not prepared to be governor. How can she be prepared to be vice president or president? said Green, a Republican from Palin's hometown of Wasilla. "Look at what she's done to this state. What would she do to the nation?"

Green, who has feuded with Palin, brought up the big oil tax increase Palin pushed through last year. She also pointed to the award of a $500 million state subsidy to a Canadian firm to pursue a natural gas pipeline that's far from guaranteed.

House Speaker John Harris, a Republican from Valdez, was also astonished at the news. He didn't want to get into the issue of her qualifications.

"She's old enough," Harris said. "She's a U.S. citizen."

[CountArach]

Palin believes Global Warming isn't man-made (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/08/palin-global-wa.html)

In an interview for the September issue of the conservative magazine Newsmax, Gov. Sarah Palin, R-Alaska, said she does not believe climate change is caused by human behavior.

“A changing environment will affect Alaska more than any other state, because of our location. I'm not one though who would attribute it to being man-made,” Palin said in the interview, which was posted online Friday.

McCain, R-Ariz., by contrast, has broken with his party’s dogma by supporting a mandatory program to cap carbon emissions -- a point of pride for McCain as he burnishes his independent reputation.
Oh and Biden debating:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpPR4VPt47I&feature=related

[ICantSpellDawg]

Wheeeeee!

Palin enjoys between an 80 and 90 % approval rating. She is the most locally popular governor in the United States currently. One lady says something nasty and that must mean she stinks as a governor.

[Xiahou]

Palin believes Global Warming isn't man-made (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/08/palin-global-wa.html)Awesome, I like her even more now. I had her figured for one of the global warming faithful- Im glad to be wrong.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Palin enjoys between an 80 and 90 % approval rating. She is the most locally popular governor in the United States currently. One lady says something nasty and that must mean she stinks as a governor.

Ted stevens just won a primary in alaska.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Palin believes Global Warming isn't man-made (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/08/palin-global-wa.html)

Out of all the people pointing out positives about the Republican canidates, I didn't think it would be one of our local socialists.

[CountArach]

Awesome, I like her even more now. I had her figured for one of the global warming faithful- Im glad to be wrong.
Yeah I thought you might appreciate that one.

Unfortunately for you, America does not.

[Strike For The South]

Excellent!!! My kind or retort. By the way, I loved you in Broke Back Mountain.:beam:

lovin is lovin my fellow hillbilly

[ICantSpellDawg]

Yeah I thought you might appreciate that one.

Unfortunately for you, America does not.

What do you know about America - I forgot?

[Xiahou]

Yeah I thought you might appreciate that one.

Unfortunately for you, America does not.
Most Americans (http://www.gallup.com/poll/106660/Little-Increase-Americans-Global-Warming-worries.aspx) don't think it's a serious problem.

[CountArach]

Most Americans (http://www.gallup.com/poll/106660/Little-Increase-Americans-Global-Warming-worries.aspx) don't think it's a serious problem.
"While 61% of Americans say the effects of global warming have already begun"

"This is not to say that Americans totally dismiss global warming. About two-thirds say they worry a great deal or a fair amount about it, and only 17% say they don't worry at all about it."

A Gallup Poll question asks Americans whether "additional, immediate, and drastic action" is necessary concerning the environment, and in this year's update, about a third answer "yes."

EDIT: I also found this (http://www.gallup.com/poll/107569/ClimateChange-Views-RepublicanDemocratic-Gaps-Expand.aspx), also from Gallup:

There has nonetheless been a sizable increase over the past decade in the percentage of Americans who agree that "most scientists believe that global warming is occurring," from 48% in 1997 to 65% this year. Republicans, independents, and Democrats have all become more likely to see most scientists as believing in global warming.
...
The IPCC has not only asserted that global warming is occurring, but that to a large degree it is caused by human activities such as burning fossil fuels rather than being a natural phenomenon. Gallup has tracked Americans' views of this issue only since 2003, and the results have been relatively stable since then. This year, 58% see global warming as due more to human activities than to natural causes, similar to the 61% in 2003.
Within the Margin of Error.

[ICantSpellDawg]

"While 61% of Americans say the effects of global warming have already begun"

"This is not to say that Americans totally dismiss global warming. About two-thirds say they worry a great deal or a fair amount about it, and only 17% say they don't worry at all about it."

A Gallup Poll question asks Americans whether "additional, immediate, and drastic action" is necessary concerning the environment, and in this year's update, about a third answer "yes."

EDIT: I also found this (http://www.gallup.com/poll/107569/ClimateChange-Views-RepublicanDemocratic-Gaps-Expand.aspx), also from Gallup:

Within the Margin of Error.

Most people believe in global warming
Many believe that humans contribute to it.
Some believe that humans cause it.

Even if we were the single drivers of global warming - most scientists say that even if we cut our emissions by 75% today it would do nothing to stop the trend. Sounds pretty straightforward to me. No matter how you feel about global warming - nothing that man could do or not do will be able to change it. What we need to focus on is how to adapt to any changes (man made or not) and ween ourselves responsibly off of foreign energy as much as we can.

Some people would rather that we slow down our economy even though lower emissions will have no effect on climate change. Just to do it in principle? Great idea.

[KarlXII]

This is going to be great. I'm going to grab a big bag of pop corn and a 24 pack of soda when the VP Debates come around. Way to go McCain, at least Obama picked someone who had experience where he lacked it.

[Xiahou]

CA, none of that refutes the assertion in the poll that most Americans don't think it's a serious threat- 58 to 40%.

I don't really want to get into parsing all the rest here....

[CountArach]

Serious Threat + Fair Threat = 66%

@ TuffStuff - All I'm saying is that the majority of Americans disagree with the assertion that Climate Change is natural. I don't want a Climate Change debate - there is already one in the Backroom.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Serious Threat + Fair Threat = 66%

@ TuffStuff - All I'm saying is that the majority of Americans disagree with the assertion that Climate Change is natural. I don't want a Climate Change debate - there is already one in the Backroom.

It is such crap. It is the perfect argument because even if Democrats win it - who cares? Find me a scientist who thinks that we can lessen climate change through recycling and switching energy sources. Then find me someone who is prepared to pay 20k more for a car or up their heating bill for no benefit. Pure, unadulterated turd burger.

[CountArach]

Now you're blowing it out of proportion. 20k more for a car? Give me a break...

[Xiahou]

Serious Threat + Fair Threat = 66%I dont see those numbers...

[CountArach]

I dont see those numbers...
"This is not to say that Americans totally dismiss global warming. About two-thirds say they worry a great deal or a fair amount about it, and only 17% say they don't worry at all about it."

From the link you posted.

EDIT: My mistake, I should have put 2/3 instead of 66%...

[Xiahou]

You can worry about something without thinking it's a serious threat. They're different questions that were asked. Americans are good about worrying about things. :yes:

[Tribesman]

Oh dear , Palin it seems is a cretinist and wants cretinism taught in schools as science:dizzy2:
Its so nice that she is really convinced about the wonderful accuracy of the old testament and doesn't really like them crazy scientists . Then again if she loved the OT so much she wouldn't be saying that her childs "defect" is a chromosone thing at all , it would be a curse from god , perhaps she prefers the NT version instead where it isn't a curse its just one of them things god does .

[JR-]

oh dear god, she's not a creationist is she? :(

phew, but she's cutting it close with my idiot-o-meter:

"While running for Governor of Alaska she was asked about the teaching of creationism in public school science classes. Palin answered that she thought it was important to teach creationism in the schools; although she clarified the next day that she meant that open debate between the two ideas should not be prohibited if it came up in discussion, but that creationism did not need to be part of the curriculum. She also added that she would not appoint State Board of Education members based on their opinions on evolution or creationism.[83] Since her election she has appointed three of the seven Board members, who serve five-year terms: Patrick Shier, Phillip Schneider, and Geraldine Benshoof. None of these appointments attracted criticism on this issue."

also:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/31088_Sarah_Palin_and_Creationism

[Lemur]

It's good to see that not every right-winger is in a blissed-out love fest. Frum (http://www.nationalpost.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=756704):


Ms. Palin's experience in government makes Barack Obama look like George C. Marshall. She served two terms on the city council of Wasilla, Alaska, population 9,000. She served two terms as mayor. In November, 2006, she was elected governor of the state, a job she has held for a little more than 18 months. She has zero foreign policy experience, and no record on national security issues.

All this would matter less, but for this fact: The day that John McCain announced his selection of Sarah Palin was his birthday. His 72nd birthday. Seventy-two is not as old as it used to be, but Mr. McCain had a bout with melanoma seven years ago, and his experience in prison camp has uncertain implications for his future health.

If anything were to happen to a President McCain, the destiny of the free world would be placed in the hands of a woman who until the day before Friday was a small-town mayor.

Ramesh Ponnuru: (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MWY0YmM3N2JhMTVkYmI0ZjU0OTBiYTY3NmUyMjgxNTc)


Inexperience. Palin has been governor for about two minutes. Thanks to McCain’s decision, Palin could be commander-in-chief next year. That may strike people as a reckless choice; it strikes me that way. And McCain's age raised the stakes on this issue. [...]

And it’s not just foreign policy. Palin has no experience dealing with national domestic issues, either. (On the other hand, as Kate O’Beirne just told me, we know that Palin will be ready for that 3 a.m. phone call: She’ll already be up with her baby.)

Tokenism. Can anyone say with a straight face that Palin would have gotten picked if she were a man?

Compatibility. It doesn’t seem as though McCain knows Palin well. Do we have much reason to think they would work well together

[CrossLOPER]

Enjoy yer airhead veepee.

[CountArach]

This sums up my thoughts on Palin's effect on the race (http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/08/gop_strategists_mixed_reviews.php):

A few [Republicans] are cautiously optimistic that it'll turn out OK, but most of the strategists and consultants I've spoken to, e-mailed with, or read/watched are struggling with it. They expect her to have a good week... and then to crash and burn when she hits the campaign trail as scrutiny catches up with her.
It seems likely to me that this is what will happen. Her inexperience will show through and if Obama hammers home how bad she is on 'women's issues', then her pick will ultimately be a horrible choice for McCain. I suppose this is the ultimate test of identity politics.

[Ronin]

Oh dear , Palin it seems is a cretinist and wants cretinism taught in schools as science:dizzy2:
Its so nice that she is really convinced about the wonderful accuracy of the old testament and doesn't really like them crazy scientists . Then again if she loved the OT so much she wouldn't be saying that her childs "defect" is a chromosone thing at all , it would be a curse from god , perhaps she prefers the NT version instead where it isn't a curse its just one of them things god does .

look at the positive side....the late-night comedians are gonna have a field day...

this is really amusing....."the world is a dangerous place, and the al qaeda wolf is at the door and all that....but who is McCains second line of defense if the worst happens?...a hockey mom that is the governor of the less densely populated state in the country....

you just can´t make this kind of stuff up :laugh4::juggle2:

[Devastatin Dave]

This is obviously a great choice and good for the US, judging by the individuals attacking her in this thread so far.

Lemur, when did you start using "neocons" like Shrum to back up your arguements. You should be more like Tribesy and just use crazed incoherant rants with no shred of proof to argue your points, it works for him and myself for that matter!!!:laugh4:

[Lemur]

I wouldn't say I have anything so cohesive as an "argument" about the VP pick just yet. Still assimilating the stuff being written about her. I just find the reflexive joy-thumping a little irritating, so I'm posting some contrary thoughts.

To be perfectly honest, I haven't yet formed an opinion.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Following a tangent if I may, I would interested in US orgahs' analysis of why "executive experience" seems to be such a touchstone for the race.

Looking back over the post-war presidents, pretty much all of them had some sort of executive experience by the definitions referred to in previous posts: vice-president, governor or in one case, general. Only Kennedy came straight from legislature. The current President Bush was a four-year governor of the great state of Texas, yet almost no-one nowadays (even from his own side) would much dispute the notion he has been one of the worst ever occupants of the White House. For balance's sake, President Clinton was two-time governor of Arkansas yet one might be safe in saying that conservatives might feel this did not make him a good president. :shrug:

To my mind, pretty much half of these made fairly useless presidents: Both Bushes, Clinton, Carter, Ford and maybe Johnson. Only Eisenhower, Reagan, Nixon and Kennedy stand out: and Dickie probably had too much "executive" experience :wink:, whilst JFK didn't have long enough to truly blot his copybook, if that was destined.

Now, of course we don't have a control experiment to judge how much more of a disaster "non-experienced" presidents might have been (the pre-war ones had perhaps, significantly different challenges and are clouded by historical distance) but being a governor or veep doesn't seem to help make one a good president necessarily.

My guess is that the office of president is so singular, nothing - not even the vice-presidency - can prepare a person for the burden. That is why - quite rightly - the voters focus on issues of character, fortitude and accurate, timely decision making in candidates.

Both Governor Palin and Senator Obama might surprise us all with their abilities in these areas. Senator McCain has the further interesting quality for a president of being to work effectively across partisan boundaries.

Just a thought from an observer. As noted, I'd be interested on your views as to how wrong my analysis might be. :embarassed:

[ICantSpellDawg]

Following a tangent if I may, I would interested in US orgahs' analysis of why "executive experience" seems to be such a touchstone for the race.

Looking back over the post-war presidents, pretty much all of them had some sort of executive experience by the definitions referred to in previous posts: vice-president, governor or in one case, general. Only Kennedy came straight from legislature. The current President Bush was a four-year governor of the great state of Texas, yet almost no-one nowadays (even from his own side) would much dispute the notion he has been one of the worst ever occupants of the White House. For balance's sake, President Clinton was two-time governor of Arkansas yet one might be safe in saying that conservatives might feel this did not make him a good president. :shrug:

To my mind, pretty much half of these made fairly useless presidents: Both Bushes, Clinton, Carter, Ford and maybe Johnson. Only Eisenhower, Reagan, Nixon and Kennedy stand out: and Dickie probably had too much "executive" experience :wink:, whilst JFK didn't have long enough to truly blot his copybook, if that was destined.

Now, of course we don't have a control experiment to judge how much more of a disaster "non-experienced" presidents might have been (the pre-war ones had perhaps, significantly different challenges and are clouded by historical distance) but being a governor or veep doesn't seem to help make one a good president necessarily.

My guess is that the office of president is so singular, nothing - not even the vice-presidency - can prepare a person for the burden. That is why - quite rightly - the voters focus on issues of character, fortitude and accurate, timely decision making in candidates.

Both Governor Palin and Senator Obama might surprise us all with their abilities in these areas. Senator McCain has the further interesting quality for a president of being to work effectively across partisan boundaries.

Just a thought from an observer. As noted, I'd be interested on your views as to how wrong my analysis might be. :embarassed:

That is a fair and balanced viewpoint.

[KukriKhan]

I don't think you're very wrong, or even a little wrong. The focus on executive experience, I think, is a product, this round of elections, on it's relative absence, plus a concern on the part of the electorate (well, me anyway) that we want the next 'big guy' to be able to effectively and decisively deal with international leaders - both 'good' and 'bad', elected or self-appointed, immediately upon assuming office.

Of course, being able to accurately predict the candidates' decisiveness is a bit of a crap-shoot. All four have shown the ability to deliver a rousing speech from prepared text. Senators (3 of 'em) are well-practiced at that skill. Some of us are betting (rather, hoping) that someone accustomed to a leadership mantle (vs a legislative, all-talk background) will be effective sooner.

Point taken on 'surprise' candidates. Sometimes the job "makes" the man (JFK = prime example; he stumbled early and often, but grew into the role), sometimes the job overwhelms him (Carter).

[ICantSpellDawg]

Now you're blowing it out of proportion. 20k more for a car? Give me a break...

Countarch - I'm saying 20k more for a car because: Who buys new cars? A number of people can't afford to buy new cars UNLESS they buy the really inexpensive ones. Hybrids won't be a viable option for the average American until they slash the prices. New cars are a major reason why the American economy is hurting right now - people have been buying and leasing what they can't afford.

People will need to spend and average of 20k more on cars to buy a hybrid - and that is an unfeeling killer.

[Devastatin Dave]

Following a tangent if I may, I would interested in US orgahs' analysis of why "executive experience" seems to be such a touchstone for the race.

Looking back over the post-war presidents, pretty much all of them had some sort of executive experience by the definitions referred to in previous posts: vice-president, governor or in one case, general. Only Kennedy came straight from legislature. The current President Bush was a four-year governor of the great state of Texas, yet almost no-one nowadays (even from his own side) would much dispute the notion he has been one of the worst ever occupants of the White House. For balance's sake, President Clinton was two-time governor of Arkansas yet one might be safe in saying that conservatives might feel this did not make him a good president. :shrug:

To my mind, pretty much half of these made fairly useless presidents: Both Bushes, Clinton, Carter, Ford and maybe Johnson. Only Eisenhower, Reagan, Nixon and Kennedy stand out: and Dickie probably had too much "executive" experience :wink:, whilst JFK didn't have long enough to truly blot his copybook, if that was destined.

Now, of course we don't have a control experiment to judge how much more of a disaster "non-experienced" presidents might have been (the pre-war ones had perhaps, significantly different challenges and are clouded by historical distance) but being a governor or veep doesn't seem to help make one a good president necessarily.

My guess is that the office of president is so singular, nothing - not even the vice-presidency - can prepare a person for the burden. That is why - quite rightly - the voters focus on issues of character, fortitude and accurate, timely decision making in candidates.

Both Governor Palin and Senator Obama might surprise us all with their abilities in these areas. Senator McCain has the further interesting quality for a president of being to work effectively across partisan boundaries.

Just a thought from an observer. As noted, I'd be interested on your views as to how wrong my analysis might be. :embarassed:

Actually this is a very good observation. Look at Lincoln. He failed running as a senator, if my history is correct, and then was the president who, though this can be debated as well, kept the Union from falling apart. Some would say that Lincoln was one of the greatest presidents in our nations history, others would say he was a tyrant that caused the death of over 600,000 troops and countless civilians along with in today's money standards billions if not trillions of dollars in national infrastructure damage. The arguement can be the same with Bush. In 20 years or perhaps 100, the view of "disastorous" might change. Its all in the eye of the beholder. I like Palin. I think she's agood choice. But I could possibly be in the same boat as the Obamamessiah flock and only be captivated by a flashy politician that has the same secret moral compass as Stalin. I beive that she is more experienced than Obama. I live in IL, and now that he's basically ran for president since he was elected here. Out of the 3 years he's been in Washington, 2 of those have been spent on the campaign trail. Then again, Mrs Palin has only been governor for 2 years and was a mayor in some eskimo infested tundra town in the middle of nowhere. But she has shook up the corrupt republican establishment in Alask and that has to be admired. In a way I feel like some of the blacks that I know that say to me that they can point to the screen on the tube and show there kids what they can accomplish. I found myself doing that with my 3 year old daughter last night. Shallow? Perhaps, but I have a better unserstanding of many of the black Obama supporters (not as intense I'm sure).

Again, BG, thank you for your post, it helped me look in the mirror.:2thumbsup:

[ICantSpellDawg]

In a way I feel like some of the blacks that I know that say to me that they can point to the screen on the tube and show there kids what they can accomplish. I found myself doing that with my 3 year old daughter last night. Shallow? Perhaps, but I have a better unserstanding of many of the black Obama supporters (not as intense I'm sure).

Again, BG, thank you for your post, it helped me look in the mirror.:2thumbsup:

I ended up talking to my little cousins about what this means for them. Of course my sister is black, so I did the same when Obama was nominated. Double whammy for her, huh?

Female integration into politics should be even keeled. For too long the democracts have made women feel like there is only one option for them. The way in which they have been responding to Palin has been informative. "Gimmick", "Puppet", etc; if anyone else said those things people would cry sexism. It is important that there is an even split - even Clinton recognized that.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

"While running for Governor of Alaska she was asked about the teaching of creationism in public school science classes. Palin answered that she thought it was important to teach creationism in the schools; although she clarified the next day that she meant that open debate between the two ideas should not be prohibited if it came up in discussion, but that creationism did not need to be part of the curriculum. She also added that she would not appoint State Board of Education members based on their opinions on evolution or creationism.[83] Since her election she has appointed three of the seven Board members, who serve five-year terms: Patrick Shier, Phillip Schneider, and Geraldine Benshoof. None of these appointments attracted criticism on this issue."


I don't see anything wrong with this. There is no reason that debate between the two should be prohitibed at all.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I ended up talking to my little cousins about what this means for them. Of course my sister is black, so I did the same when Obama was nominated. Double whammy for her, huh?

Female integration into politics should be even keeled. For too long the democracts have made women feel like there is only one option for them.

:laugh4: Yes, dang those democrats for forcing the republicans to be pro-life and support poor education plans!




The way in which they have been responding to Palin has been informative. "Gimmick", "Puppet", etc; if anyone else said those things people would cry sexism. It is important that there is an even split - even Clinton recognized that.

Palin was clearly chosen to pander to female voters--that's why she's being called a gimmick:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122006180529385397.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

You're saying that the republicans should choose a woman just because hillary ran this year, that's silly.

As for clinton's statement, it's obvious that the democrats are just going to be nice to palin for a while and let the media go after her for a while.

[KukriKhan]

If it comes down to a 50-50 split in November, let them settle it on the court, instead of in the courts.

https://jimcee.homestead.com/posl05_obama0803.jpg

Barak O'Basket, vs.

https://jimcee.homestead.com/sarahheathstatebb1982_1.jpg

Sarah Barracuda

Half court, all baskets 2-pointers, best 5 games out of 7.

[ICantSpellDawg]

:laugh4: Yes, dang those democrats for forcing the republicans to be pro-life and support poor education plans!


Limits on the current abortion laws are favored by the majority.





Palin was clearly chosen to pander to female voters--that's why she's being called a gimmick:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122006180529385397.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

You're saying that the republicans should choose a woman just because hillary ran this year, that's silly.

As for clinton's statement, it's obvious that the democrats are just going to be nice to palin for a while and let the media go after her for a while.

Republicans needed to include women at the highest levels of their party. I don't believe that women should support Palin just because she is a woman - but I did hear a few Hillary supporters condemn women who were voting against Hillary as "gender traitors". Most women are not "liberals" or "conservatives" - they are in the middle. The choice of Palin as VP opens new doors for women in the GOP.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Limits on the current abortion laws are favored by the majority.

That's nice, limits like not allowing abortions in cases of rape and incest?






Republicans needed to include women at the highest levels of their party. I don't believe that women should support Palin just because she is a woman - but I did hear a few Hillary supporters condemn women who were voting against Hillary as "gender traitors". Most women are not "liberals" or "conservatives" - they are in the middle. The choice of Palin as VP opens new doors for women in the GOP.

But see, a lot of people voted for hillary because they thought she was qualified to be president and not because she was a woman. Palin on the other hand...


Obama's comment on McCain's vp choice:


(CBS) In his first reaction to the choice of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as John McCain's running mate, Sen. Barack Obama tells 60 Minutes correspondent Steve Kroft that she is an "up-and-coming public servant." Of his own choice for running mate, the Democratic presidential nominee says Sen. Joseph Biden "can step in and become president."

Obama and Biden sat down with Kroft Friday night in Pittsburgh for an interview to be broadcast on 60 Minutes this Sunday, Aug. 31, at 7 p.m. ET/PT.

"Let me tell you the reason I picked Joe Biden," Sen. Obama told Kroft. "Number one, he can step in and become president. And I don't think anybody has any doubt about that. Number two is that if I'm in the room making the kinds of tough decisions that the next president's going to have to make both on domestic policy and on international policy, then I want the counsel and advice of somebody who's not going to agree with me 100 percent of time - in fact, somebody what's independent enough that can push back and give me different perspectives and make sure that I'm catching any blind spots that I have. And Joe Biden doesn't bite his tongue.

"Number three, is somebody who I know in his heart cares about the American people and the American dream, and is willing to fight for them as hard as he can. And Joe Biden fit that bill," Obama added.

"What do you think of Senator McCain's vice presidential choice? And how does it change the dynamics of this campaign?" Kroft asked.

"Well, I don't know Governor Palin, I have not met her before. I had a brief conversation with her after she was selected to congratulate her and wish her luck - but, not too much luck! - on the campaign trial. And she seems to have a compelling life story. Obviously, she's a fine mother and a up-and-coming public servant," Obama said. "So, it's too early for me to gauge what kind of running mate she'll be.

"My sense is that she subscribes to John McCain's agenda. And ultimately, this [election] is going to be about where I want to take the country and where Joe Biden wants to take the country, and where John McCain and his running mate want to take the country."

[JR-]

I don't see anything wrong with this. There is no reason that debate between the two should be prohitibed at all.
i agree, it was posted in response to Tribesmans post; "OMGOMGOMG she isa creationist OMGOMGOMG!!!!!!111111

here is another article on the same issue of overreaction:

Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin wants creationism taught in science classes.

In a 2006 gubernatorial debate, the soon-to-be governor of Alaska trotted out the usual creationist education canard: “Teach both. You know, don’t be afraid of education. Healthy debate is so important, and it’s so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both.”

Teaching evolution and creationism in a scientifically balanced way is simply impossible. Evolution is accepted by scientists as driving the development of life on Earth. Creationism, which puts a (Christian) God in the engine room of life, is unsupported by science. Its arguments have been roundly dismissed by scientists — many of whom, it should be noted, believe in God. They’re just sensible enough to understand where science ends and religion begins.

In an interview Thursday, Palin said she meant only to say that discussion of alternative views should be allowed to arise in Alaska classrooms:

“I don’t think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn’t have to be part of the curriculum.”

She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state’s required curriculum.

Members of the state school board, which sets minimum requirements, are appointed by the governor and confirmed by the Legislature.

“I won’t have religion as a litmus test, or anybody’s personal opinion on evolution or creationism,” Palin said.


does she actually believe the LORD created the world in seven days five thousand years ago?
that is an important question to me, i cannot support idiocy of that stripe.

[Tribesman]

i agree, it was posted in response to Tribesmans post; "OMGOMGOMG she isa creationist OMGOMGOMG!!!!!!111111

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
OMGOMGOMGOMG !!!!!!!!1111111:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
slightly different from oh dear the GOP have chosen an idiot to be one heartbeat away from serious power and descision making .

[Strike For The South]

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
OMGOMGOMGOMG !!!!!!!!1111111:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
slightly different from oh dear the GOP have chosen an idiot to be one heartbeat away from serious power and descision making .

If, at this point, we can call it that

[Kralizec]

does she actually believe the LORD created the world in seven days five thousand years ago?
that is an important question to me, i cannot support idiocy of that stripe.

I couldn't care less about the beliefs of creationists, but their ideas should be kept out of science classes. Religious beliefs shouldn't be an issue but when a candidate calls him or herself a creationist that usually spells trouble. The position in that text you quoted is a good one, I hope she doesn't change (TM) it.

[KukriKhan]

Whew! Finally, the 'other' investigation (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jiV2WBHEmiS0_TAkxcdOD_WFHDkAD92S4MS04) the Tribesman referred to.


...Campaign contributions Palin collected earlier in her political career could also provide fodder for Democratic campaign ads, tying her to an Alaska Republican political scandal from which she has tried to distance herself.

Palin raised at least $4,500 for her unsuccessful 2002 campaign for lieutenant governor from executives of VECO Corp., an oil services contractor at the heart of a massive influence-peddling investigation. Alaska Republican Sen. Ted Stevens is accused of accepting more than $250,000 in home renovations and gifts from VECO executives and failing to disclose them on his annual financial statements; the senator says he is innocent.

Palin received $500 each from nine VECO executives in December 2001, including then-CEO Bill Allen, who last year pleaded guilty to federal conspiracy, bribery and tax charges and agreed to cooperate in the corruption investigation.

Just throwing it out there to keep us informed. Looks like the media is still digging. I anticipate seeing stuff on the Palin hubby next.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I don't think the mccain group did a very good job vetting her at all. I wonder if it was a last minute panic choice.

[KukriKhan]

I don't think the mccain group did a very good job vetting her at all. I wonder if it was a last minute panic choice.

I guess we'll see in the next 2-3 weeks. I would say 1-2 weeks, but the Repub convention will bury/divert the media for next week, I think.

If you're right, and they poorly vetted her, and presuming they'd be the same folks vetting future cabinet appointments, military posts, etc... again: if you're right, the organization would deserve to fail.

O'course the same applies to the Dem camp.

Individual leadership skills aside, the top guy also needs to know how to attract and get top-notch help - personnel skills are almost as important (to me) as personal skills.

[Devastatin Dave]

O'course the same applies to the Dem camp.
.

Not really, so far the media has done an excellent job burying all the stories to Obama's dirty little secrets. This is the most biased election coverage in the history of politics. They sure love them some Obama. Has anyone watched MSNBC during this election? Even Bill Mahr said that Chris Matthews and Kieth Olberman want to have sex with Obama.

[CountArach]

Here's (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/08/women-more-skeptical-of-palin-than-men.html) a bullet in the theory that women will migrate to McCain/Palin en-masse, at least initially.

Women are 1 point LESS LIKELY to vote for Palin. They also have a far less favourable view of her than men (Though it must be admitted that a +18 Favourability rating is nothing to be sniffed at...

[Crazed Rabbit]

Apparently a former chairman of the DNC (http://www.redstate.com/diaries/absentee/2008/aug/30/fowler-fouls-hurricane-is-gods-favor-to-dem) thinks that hurricane Gustav pounding New Orleans is a sign God likes the democratic party, by again destroying a city full of democrats. I'd hate to see what He'd do if he disliked the dems.

CR

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Apparently a former chairman of the DNC (http://www.redstate.com/diaries/absentee/2008/aug/30/fowler-fouls-hurricane-is-gods-favor-to-dem) thinks that hurricane Gustav pounding New Orleans is a sign God likes the democratic party, by again destroying a city full of democrats. I'd hate to see what He'd do if he disliked the dems.

CR

The fact that someone video taped a conversation he overheard on a plane and posted an angry blog about it is way more entertaining than the fact that someone commented on gustav being good for the democratic party.

[Big_John]

Following a tangent if I may, I would interested in US orgahs' analysis of why "executive experience" seems to be such a touchstone for the race.

Looking back over the post-war presidents, pretty much all of them had some sort of executive experience by the definitions referred to in previous posts: vice-president, governor or in one case, general. Only Kennedy came straight from legislature. The current President Bush was a four-year governor of the great state of Texas, yet almost no-one nowadays (even from his own side) would much dispute the notion he has been one of the worst ever occupants of the White House. For balance's sake, President Clinton was two-time governor of Arkansas yet one might be safe in saying that conservatives might feel this did not make him a good president. :shrug:

To my mind, pretty much half of these made fairly useless presidents: Both Bushes, Clinton, Carter, Ford and maybe Johnson. Only Eisenhower, Reagan, Nixon and Kennedy stand out: and Dickie probably had too much "executive" experience :wink:, whilst JFK didn't have long enough to truly blot his copybook, if that was destined.

Now, of course we don't have a control experiment to judge how much more of a disaster "non-experienced" presidents might have been (the pre-war ones had perhaps, significantly different challenges and are clouded by historical distance) but being a governor or veep doesn't seem to help make one a good president necessarily.

My guess is that the office of president is so singular, nothing - not even the vice-presidency - can prepare a person for the burden. That is why - quite rightly - the voters focus on issues of character, fortitude and accurate, timely decision making in candidates.

Both Governor Palin and Senator Obama might surprise us all with their abilities in these areas. Senator McCain has the further interesting quality for a president of being to work effectively across partisan boundaries.

Just a thought from an observer. As noted, I'd be interested on your views as to how wrong my analysis might be. :embarassed:if i understand you correctly, you think that i should run for president.

point well made. big_john in 2012! :unitedstates:

[Tribesman]

Nice link Rabbit thanks for the laugh .
It makes you wonder though , when a site can put something like this......


WARNING -- As is common on leftist sites, some of the language that follows is profane. (Not to mention filled with bad spelling and grammar)

...at the bottom of one of their articles when their own article is filled with bad spelling and grammar just how far they have their heads up their own backsides .
And of course considering that the article I mention moans about people being stupid reading and believing made up stories about Palin just how far up their own backsides they are when they and their readershipdo exactly the same about Obama .
BTW I like the way they moan about "leftist" conspiracy theories and in the same line throw out their own consipracy theory .

[Lemur]

That's pretty foul, CR. Yet another example of people putting party before nation. Still doesn't hold a candle to the wholesale politicization of the GWoT by the Bush Admin, but nasty nonetheless. (Based on evidence, though, can we all agree that God hates Florida?)

Meanwhile, politicos in Alaska are saying, "Was Palin vetted? Nobody called us (http://www.adn.com/politics/story/510249.html)."


State House Speaker John Harris, a Republican from Valdez, was astonished at the news. He didn't want to get into the issue of her qualifications.

"She's old enough," Harris said. "She's a U.S. citizen."

Former House Speaker Gail Phillips, a Republican political leader who has clashed with Palin in the past, was shocked when she heard the news Friday morning with her husband, Walt.

"I said to Walt, 'This can't be happening, because his advance team didn't come to Alaska to check her out," Phillips said.

Phillips has been active in the Ted Stevens re-election steering committee and remains in close touch with Sen. Lisa Murkowski and other party leaders, and she said nobody had heard anything about McCain's people doing research on his prospective running mate.

"We're not a very big state. People I talk to would have heard something."

[JR-]

apparently the mcain team went to fantastic lengths to keep her selection secret, possibly why the politicos knew nothing about it:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/johnmccain/2651828/Cloak-and-dagger-operation-by-John-McCain-camp-to-keep-Sarah-Palins-name-a-secret.html

[CountArach]

That could be because he only picked her the night before (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/08/how-palin-came.html).

[Tribesman]

St. Paul is just soooo gay .
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/oliverburkemanblog/2008/aug/30/uselections2008.johnmccain1

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I have to laugh at the democratic party that concerns itself with the plight of the poor and then want to take away the one economic advantage the poor in third world countries have. So I'm supposed to tell a poor person making clothing I"m not going to buy what they make for their own good, until their costs to make it are so high there's no reason to buy it from them anymore?

Eh, don't you think we should look out for our own? I mean, would you support a bill that provided health care for countries overseas?


And I don't think trade workers are stupid or need to go to college; I think they could get new jobs based on their skills, instead of democrats who seem to think they'll never find work again.

Ah yes, the "just get a job" school of economics.


Take a look at China; for decades they made the junk of the world.

Pretty soon their toys won't contain toxic paint anymore.


Finally, I don't see you talking about how Obama wants to dramatically increase the capital gains tax and seriously hurt the economy. That would be increasing the tax on every American who owns stocks, and take a good deal of reward for risky investment away.
Oh, not to mention, Bush's rate cut for the capital gains tax drastically increased revenue collected from that tax.
A bigger look at how harmful it would be:
http://www.nysun.com/business/obama-capital-gains-tax-hike-would-hit-new-york/81902/

Your last statement indicates that you don't quite understand the issue. Of course cutting the rate increases revenue collected from the tax. It's simple. Let's say you make over 250k and have a tax rate of 35%, with the capital gains tax being at 15%. You sure as hell aren't going to cash out an investment and pay the huge markup. You'll hold onto it for a year, and pay the capital gains tax. But if the tax is at 28%, you're much more likely to cash it out early and pay income tax on it instead.

I love how you think increasing the tax on people who own stocks is a bad thing--"just leave warren buffet alone"! :laugh4:

[discovery1]

I love how you think increasing the tax on people who own stocks is a bad thing--"just leave warren buffet alone"!

You know that slightly more then a majority of people own stocks right?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

You know that slightly more then a majority of people own stocks right?

You do know that a small minority of people make over 250k, right?

[KukriKhan]

So, Gee-Dub and Shotgun Dick will be no-shows (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article4647103.ece) at the Repub convention. Reports also indicate that about a third of scheduled speakers have sent in "regrets", due to Hurricane Gustav or other pressing business.

The RNC has the XCel Center booked for 2 weeks +.

Monday the gavel opens the convention. At 0600, the mainstream media should be on-hand in New Orleans (not Minneapolis) to photograph Johnny Mac and Sarah Barracuda, with hardhats and shovels, filling sandbags - and McCain suggesting that storm refugees are welcome to stay at the convention site (or any of his 7, 8, 9 homes), with a smile.

Got lemons? Make lemonade; and furniture polish, and airfreshener, and...

Gustav is not a "problem", it's an opportunity.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

So, Gee-Dub and Shotgun Dick will be no-shows (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article4647103.ece) at the Repub convention. Reports also indicate that about a third of scheduled speakers have sent in "regrets", due to Hurricane Gustav or other pressing business.

The RNC has the XCel Center booked for 2 weeks +.

Monday the gavel opens the convention. At 0600, the mainstream media should be on-hand in New Orleans (not Minneapolis) to photograph Johnny Mac and Sarah Barracuda, with hardhats and shovels, filling sandbags - and McCain suggesting that storm refugees are welcome to stay at the convention site (or any of his 7, 8, 9 homes), with a smile.

Got lemons? Make lemonade; and furniture polish, and airfreshener, and...

Gustav is not a "problem", it's an opportunity.

I'm sure all the secret service, extra security requirements, and press photographers won't interfere with the preparation efforts at all...

[ICantSpellDawg]

I'm sure all the secret service, extra security requirements, and press photographers won't interfere with the preparation efforts at all...

They are staying in Mississippi because they won't be as distracting there. Louisiana will most likely be much harder hit.

[KukriKhan]

I'm sure all the secret service, extra security requirements, and press photographers won't interfere with the preparation efforts at all...

Hehe. I guess that's why I'm merely a humble public servant, and not a political strategist.

But you gotta admit: It would score big PR points. Then he and she show up in Minn dirty, sweaty, and late for the hoopla, and give their acceptance speeches in shirtsleeves.

-edit-
woo-hoo, 1400 posts.

[Xiahou]

I'm sure all the secret service, extra security requirements, and press photographers won't interfere with the preparation efforts at all...And if they don't go, they're uncaring snobs. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. :shrug:

Lemur, she got the state party chairman and the AG thrown out of office over corruption and you're surprised that the good ole boys in the state party don't like her? I'm surprised you give so much credence to what the Alaskan Republican party thinks of her. I think an 80+% approval rating might be more telling than the grumblings of the party bosses who's cages she's spent her time in government rattling. Gail Phillips is busy trying to get Ted Stevens elected- we know she has good judgement. :smash:

[ICantSpellDawg]

And if they don't go, they're uncaring snobs. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. :shrug:

Lemur, she got the state party chairman and the AG thrown out of office over corruption and you're surprised that the good ole boys in the state party don't like her? I'm surprised you give so much credence to what the Alaskan Republican party thinks of her. I think an 80+% approval rating might be more telling than the grumblings of the party bosses who's cages she's spent her time in government rattling. Gail Phillips is busy trying to get Ted Stevens elected- we know she has good judgement. :smash:

Unless they are wearing the blue tie, they are the bad guy.

[JR-]

Palin on Polar:
http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/alaska-govenor-sarah-palins-op-ed-on-polar-bears-and-climate-change-in-the-nyt/

[ICantSpellDawg]

Palin on Polar:
http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/alaska-govenor-sarah-palins-op-ed-on-polar-bears-and-climate-change-in-the-nyt/

Eminently reasonable argument.

[Lemur]

Lemur, she got the state party chairman and the AG thrown out of office over corruption and you're surprised that the good ole boys in the state party don't like her? I'm surprised you give so much credence to what the Alaskan Republican party thinks of her. I think an 80+% approval rating might be more telling than the grumblings of the party bosses who's cages she's spent her time in government rattling.
I'm terribly sorry if I'm not jumping straight into the lovefest. Nor do I mean to rain on your besotment. Reading some quotes, she certainly sounds like less of a rabid partisan that I had feared (http://www.newyorker.com/talk/2008/09/08/080908ta_talk_gourevitch?printable=true):


But she said she recognized that “the Democrats also preach individual freedoms and individual rights, capitalism, free market, let-it-do-its-thing-best, let people keep as much of their money that they earn as possible. And when it comes to, like, the Party machine, no one will accuse me of being partisan.”

So the possibility that Obama might win Alaska did not worry Palin: “Turning maybe purple in the state means, to me, it’s more independent, it’s not the obsessive partisanship that gets in the way of doing what’s right for this state, and I think on a national level that’s what we’re gonna see.”

TuffStuff, what's with the "ties"? If you're going to take a swing, at least let us know what you're aiming at.

[ICantSpellDawg]

TuffStuff, what's with the "ties"? If you're going to take a swing, at least let us know what you're aiming at.

really? (http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/10/election.main/index.html)

https://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w215/coatandtie/July1207.jpg

I'll save you a space on the "Palin Lovefest express" for whenever it gets too crowded up Obama's bus for you.:hippie::clown:. I'm just kidding - I know that you are perfectly unbiased.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I love how you think increasing the tax on people who own stocks is a bad thing--"just leave warren buffet alone"!

As disco said, over half of people own stocks. Decreasing the possible reward while the risk stays the same will discourage people from investing in the stock market, which would have a ripple effect on the whole economy.

If Warren Buffet and other limousine liberals are bothered that the rate they pay is too low, nothing is stopping them from paying more taxes.

CR

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Some leftist websites are accussing Palin of not actually having her last child. Apparently they think it was her daughter's... (http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/259222)

[Crazed Rabbit]

Wow, those people are freakish.

I mean, seriously, who thinks of that? The child has down's syndrome; much, much more common in children of women over 40.

CR

[ICantSpellDawg]

Some leftist websites are accussing Palin of not actually having her last child. Apparently they think it was her daughter's... (http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/259222)

I hope that one gets out big time.

http://alaskareport.com/images31/palin_pregnant.jpg

Lets let voters decide. She was probably just wearing a fat suit and lying to an entire state for 9 months as the governor.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

As disco said, over half of people own stocks. Decreasing the possible reward while the risk stays the same will discourage people from investing in the stock market, which would have a ripple effect on the whole economy.

If Warren Buffet and other limousine liberals are bothered that the rate they pay is too low, nothing is stopping them from paying more taxes.

CR

So, neither you nor EMFM have read obama's plan. Same reply to you as I gave to him.

Btw, what else are people going to do with their money? Put it in a savings account? As long as stocks are still a better investment.

[Devastatin Dave]

And if they don't go, they're uncaring snobs. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. :shrug:

Lemur, she got the state party chairman and the AG thrown out of office over corruption and you're surprised that the good ole boys in the state party don't like her? I'm surprised you give so much credence to what the Alaskan Republican party thinks of her. I think an 80+% approval rating might be more telling than the grumblings of the party bosses who's cages she's spent her time in government rattling. Gail Phillips is busy trying to get Ted Stevens elected- we know she has good judgement. :smash:

Face it Xiahou, the only way the lefties in our backroom would respect her is if she had gutted her Baby a few second before he was born like she would an Alaskan salmon. I guess I would be upset too if the top guy on my ticket that I was supporting had less experience than the bottom ticket of the opposition!!!:laugh4:

[Devastatin Dave]

So, neither you nor EMFM have read obama's plan. Same reply to you as I gave to him.

Btw, what else are people going to do with their money? Put it in a savings account? As long as stocks are still a better investment.

Sasaki, you do realise that a LOT of 401 K's, thrift savings, and other pension funds come from stock inested in those evil oil companies and such right? You are aware that those "rich" evil bastards that make over 250K are often small business owners that hire people, right? You should consider an economics class instead of getting you economic lessons from Marxists like Obama and his buddy Biden.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

So, neither you nor EMFM have read obama's plan. Same reply to you as I gave to him.


When was this?

[CountArach]

Face it Xiahou, the only way the lefties in our backroom would respect her is if she had gutted her Baby a few second before he was born like she would an Alaskan salmon. I guess I would be upset too if the top guy on my ticket that I was supporting had less experience than the bottom ticket of the opposition!!!:laugh4:
Wow... you really think she has more experience than Obama?

Some leftist websites are accussing Palin of not actually having her last child. Apparently they think it was her daughter's...
This goes to show that morons can be found on both sides of the aisle.

There... I said it.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Here is a great article comparing Obama to Palin in terms of their experience. We can feel even better knowing that our interesting prodigy is going to be in the #2 slot (which can stand a bit more "on the job" training) while yours will be in the drivers seat from day 1.

Before anyone might complain about this arguments bias (which is has, as the authore admits 5 paragraphs down), I must say that the question was asked "do we really feel that Palin is more experienced than Obama?". Here is your answer.

Sarah Palin vs. Barack Obama
By Gerard Baker
Link (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/09/sarah_palin_vs_barack_obama.html)

Democrats, between sniggers of derision and snorts of disgust, contend that Sarah Palin, John McCain's vice-presidential pick is ridiculously unqualified to be president.

It's a reasonable objection on its face except for this small objection: it surely needs to be weighed against the Democrats' claim that their own candidate for president is self-evidently ready to assume the role of most powerful person on the planet.

At first blush, here's what we know about the relative experience of the two candidates. Both are in their mid-forties and have held statewide elective office for less than four years. Both have admitted to taking illegal drugs in their youth.

So much for the similarities. How about the differences?

Political experience

Obama: Worked his way to the top by cultivating, pandering to and stroking the most powerful interest groups in the all-pervasive Chicago political machine, ensuring his views were aligned with the power brokers there.

Palin: Worked her way to the top by challenging, attacking and actively undermining the Republican party establishment in her native Alaska. She ran against incumbent Republicans as a candidate willing and able to clean the Augean Stables of her state's government.

Political Biography

Obama: A classic, if unusually talented, greasy-pole climber. Held a succession of jobs that constitute the standard route to the top in his party's internal politics: "community organizer", law professor, state senator.

Palin:A woman with a wide range of interests in a well-variegated life. Held a succession of jobs - sports journalist, commercial fisherwoman, state oil and gas commissioner, before entering local politics. A resume that suggests something other than burning political ambition from the cradle but rather the sort of experience that enables her to understand the concerns of most Americans..


Political history

Obama: Elected to statewide office only after a disastrous first run for a congressional seat and after his Republican opponent was exposed in a sexual scandal. Won seat eventually in contest against a candidate who didn't even live in the state.


Palin: Elected to statewide office by challenging a long-serving Republican incumbent governor despite intense opposition from the party.


Appeal

Obama: A very attractive speaker whose celebrity has been compared to that of Britney Spears and who sends thrills up Chris Matthews' leg

Palin: A very attractive woman, much better-looking than Britney Spears who speaks rather well too. She sends thrills up the leg of Rush Limbaugh (and me).

Executive experience

Obama: Makes executive decisions every day that affect the lives of his campaign staff and a vast crowd of traveling journalists

Palin:Makes executive decisions every day that affect the lives of 500,000 people in her state, and that impact crucial issues of national economic interest such as the supply and cost of energy to the United States.

Religious influences

Obama: Regards people who "cling" to religion and guns as "bitter" . Spent 20 years being mentored and led spiritually by a man who proclaimed "God damn America" from his pulpit. Mysteriously, this mentor completely disappeared from public sight about four months ago.

Palin: Head of her high school Fellowship of Christian Athletes and for many years a member of the Assemblies of God congregation whose preachers have never been known to accuse the United States of deliberately spreading the AIDS virus. They remain in full public sight and can be seen every Sunday in churches across Alaska. A proud gun owner who has been known to cling only to the carcasses of dead caribou felled by her own aim.


Record of bipartisan achievement

Obama: Speaks movingly of the bipartisanship needed to end the destructive politics of "Red America" and "Blue America", but votes in the Senate as a down-the-line Democrat, with one of the most liberal voting records in congress.

Palin: Ridiculed by liberals such as John Kerry as a crazed, barely human, Dick Cheney-type conservative but worked wit Democrats in the state legislature to secure landmark anti-corruption legislation.

Former state Rep. Ethan Berkowitz - a Democrat - said. "Gov. Palin has made her name fighting corruption within her own party, and I was honored when she stepped across party lines and asked me to co-author her ethics white paper."


On Human Life

Obama: Devoutly pro-choice. Voted against a bill in the Illinois state senate that would have required doctors to save the lives of babies who survived abortion procedures. The implication of this position is that babies born prematurely during abortions would be left alone, unnourished and unmedicated, until they died.

Palin: Devoutly pro-life. Exercised the choice proclaimed by liberals to bring to full term a baby that had been diagnosed in utero with Down Syndrome.

Now it's true there are other crucial differences. Sen Obama has appeared on Meet The Press every other week for the last four years. He has been the subject of hundreds of adoring articles in papers and newsweeklies and TV shows and has written two Emmy-award winning books.

Gov Palin has never appeared on Meet the Press, never been on the cover of Newsweek. She presumably feels that, as a mother of five children married to a snowmobile champion, who also happens to be the first woman and the youngest person ever to be elected governor of her state, she has not really done enough yet to merit an autobiography.

Then again, I'm willing to bet that if she had authored The Grapes of Wrath, sung like Edith Piaf and composed La Traviata , she still wouldn't have won an Emmy.

Fortunately, it will be up to the American people and not their self-appointed leaders in Hollywood and New York to determine who really has the better experience to be president.

[CountArach]

LMAO. If I wanted Republican talking points I would have gone to the Republican site myself...

[Devastatin Dave]

Wow... you really think she has more experience than Obama?




Yes I do. She's been to Iraq and stayed there more than Obama, she has a history of working with other political parties, which Obama has none, and she has taken on the corruption within her party which Obama never has. She's the real "change" that Washington needs. Obama has basically hypnotised the masses in to believing that he's more than just a good teleprompter reader. Did you hear her acceptance speech with no teleprompter? When Obama speaks without guidance, he saounds like George Bush after a stroke. Umm, uhhh, mmmm... I mean, Come on guys...:wall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDJSVPAx8xc&feature=related

(collective farming, where have we heard this before!!!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5QxTxUbUoc&feature=related

[CountArach]

Palin on Iraq (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/palin-on-iraq.html) - this is why she would be a dangerous CiC.

Alaska Business Monthly: We've lost a lot of Alaska's military members to the war in Iraq. How do you feel about sending more troops into battle, as President Bush is suggesting?

Palin: I've been so focused on state government, I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq. I heard on the news about the new deployments, and while I support our president, Condoleezza Rice and the administration, I want to know that we have an exit plan in place; I want assurances that we are doing all we can to keep our troops safe. Every life lost is such a tragedy. I am very, very proud of the troops we have in Alaska, those fighting overseas for our freedoms, and the families here who are making so many sacrifices.
Anyway, that's all from me for today. Bloody timezones...

[Ronin]

I´ll make a prediction right now....if the republicans win we´re gonna be treated for a long "banging in the white house" MIL* PRON series.....

I might just convince myself that republicans are the right choice! :laugh4:

[Devastatin Dave]

Not only this, but this guy is NOT the racial uniter messiah that all the libs want us to believe he is..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI77cU3jsFs&feature=related
Can you imagine, if this guy gets elected, how are we as citizens going criticise him at all without being labeled racist. This guy is not good for our country.

[Ronin]

http://sinfest.net/comikaze/comics/2008-09-01.gif

Slick for PRESIDENT!!! :laugh4:

[Lemur]

Yes, DevDave, anyone who isn't instantly thrilled at Palin is a godless Communist. And any Republicans who question the choice are corrupticrats who can't appreciate a good thing (http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/08/josh_green_amid_the_stunned_re.php).


Most Republicans have never met Sarah Palin and are processing the news of her selection as VP with the stunned-but-well-meaning emotions you might feel toward an acquaintance who just came out of the closet. Those given to caution when discussing such things at a brunch with journalists put a hopeful, might-be-a-stroke-of-genius spin on their astonishment. Those less inhibited--who are also better people--generally see the pick as irresponsible and politically motivated (and not in a good way). No one believes Palin was fully vetted. And no one has any idea how this will play out.

[KukriKhan]

Yes, DevDave, anyone who isn't instantly thrilled at Pain is a godless Communist. And any Republicans who question the choice are corrupticrats who can't appreciate a good thing (http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/08/josh_green_amid_the_stunned_re.php).


Most Republicans have never met Sarah Palin and are processing the news of her selection as VP with the stunned-but-well-meaning emotions you might feel toward an acquaintance who just came out of the closet. Those given to caution when discussing such things at a brunch with journalists put a hopeful, might-be-a-stroke-of-genius spin on their astonishment. Those less inhibited--who are also better people--generally see the pick as irresponsible and politically motivated (and not in a good way). No one believes Palin was fully vetted. And no one has any idea how this will play out.

What an unfortunate typo. :laugh4:

[m52nickerson]

Palins experience and background is not better or even equal to Obama's

Education:

Palin - BS degree in communications-journalism from the University of Idaho.

Obama - BA in Political science from Columbia, Law degree from Harvard. He also taught Constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School for a number of years.

Political Experience:

Palin - Wasilla City Counsel 1992-1996, Major of Wasilla 1996-2002, Governor of Alaska 2006-current.

Obama - Illinois state senate 1996-2004, United States Senate 2005-current.

Other applicable experience:

Palin - 2003-2004 Chair Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission.

Obama - 1985-1988 Director of the Developing Communities Project (Chicago), 1990-1991 President of the Harvard Law Review, 1992-2004 Member of numerous neighborhood boards, and city charitable organizations.

Obama's education dwarfs that of Palin's. His state senate experience is equal to or better then her time in Wasilla, and the same can be said regarding his US Senate experience vs. her single year as Gov. Not to mention that Obama has been almost always been in some form of public service role since 1992.

His pedigree is far superior.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Palins experience and background is not better or even equal to Obama's

Education:

Palin - BS degree in communications-journalism from the University of Idaho.

Obama - BA in Political science from Columbia, Law degree from Harvard. He also taught Constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School for a number of years.

Political Experience:

Palin - Wasilla City Counsel 1992-1996, Major of Wasilla 1996-2002, Governor of Alaska 2006-current.

Obama - Illinois state senate 1996-2004, United States Senate 2005-current.

Other applicable experience:

Palin - 2003-2004 Chair Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission.

Obama - 1985-1988 Director of the Developing Communities Project (Chicago), 1990-1991 President of the Harvard Law Review, 1992-2004 Member of numerous neighborhood boards, and city charitable organizations.

Obama's education dwarfs that of Palin's. His state senate experience is equal to or better then her time in Wasilla, and the same can be said regarding his US Senate experience vs. her single year as Gov. Not to mention that Obama has been almost always been in some form of public service role since 1992.

His pedigree is far superior.

She has been governor for 20 months. It gets shorter and shorter depending on whom you speak with. Obama has been a Senator for 4 years, 2 of which he has been running a national campaign for the Presidency. During her time in Wasilla she at least had executive experience and learned how to run things - this is . She did such a good job that she became the President of the Alaskan council of mayors. This led to her beating the long run establishment candidate for the highest State office.

Do you really believe that her being the mayor of Wasilla from 1996-2002 (after being in the city council since 1992) is inferior to Barack's 13th district? Here is a map of the Illinois State Senate breakdown.Link (http://www.illinoisatlas.com/illinois/political/political.htm#). The differences between Biden and McCain on experience are similar in scope to the difference between Palin and Obama. In addition to that seeming equality Palin has had executive experience RUNNING things, while Obama up until this year has run nothing but an office in a massive building.

And to top it all - Palin isn't running for president - she knows she would be better in the #2 spot at the moment. If Obama could get past the hubris he'd see that it might be more appropriate for him to be in the second spot. Obama has started competing in the minds of voters with the Republican vice president. When they come out favorably in his favor (which is a 50-50 chance), he still has to compete with the presidential nominee. You'll have him run 2 elections, Count.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Actually, the Dems would LOVE for the campaign to take an Obama v Palin tone for a while. The only person forgotten in such a focus would be.....John McCain.

Palin's experience is dwarfed by Biden's. Yet she can play the "I'm not a Washington Insider" card against him. It's Obama v McCain in reverse.

The real truth, however, is that -- barring a MAJOR gaffe by one of the Veep nominees -- it will all come down to Obama and McCain's appeals in those 12 or so "swing" states. I think it will be pretty close, but still stick with my original prediction of a modest/marginal win for Obama in the EC (and somewhat larger win in the popular).

[JR-]

His pedigree is far superior.
it kind of has to be given that he is going for Potus and she VeeP.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Actually, the Dems would LOVE for the campaign to take an Obama v Palin tone for a while. The only person forgotten in such a focus would be.....John McCain.

Palin's experience is dwarfed by Biden's. Yet she can play the "I'm not a Washington Insider" card against him. It's Obama v McCain in reverse.

The real truth, however, is that -- barring a MAJOR gaffe by one of the Veep nominees -- it will all come down to Obama and McCain's appeals in those 12 or so "swing" states. I think it will be pretty close, but still stick with my original prediction of a modest/marginal win for Obama in the EC (and somewhat larger win in the popular).

Yea probably, but it was supposed to be a landslide for Obama in February. We all know how unlikely it is that we'll win, but lets see if we can make some more ground.

Republicans are now selling investment in change rather than the Democrats message of immediate leftist change. With Obama you get a radical leftist departure with a black man at the helm. With McCain you get a proven reformer with a history making woman in the number 2 spot. Sure he is a white guy, but we can trust him more easily for lasting change, as seen by his willingness to rock the establishment boat without capsizing it and his years as a game changer in the Senate. That is a viable argument that Americans might prefer - we love middle ways between two currents.

[KukriKhan]

Meanwhile, what kind of Congress are we gonna give the eventual POTUS winner to work with?

Dem - Dem - Dem? (WhiteHouse - Senate - House)

Dem - Dem/Rep - Dem?<---(if I had to place a bet today, I'd put $5 on this one).

Rep - Dem/Rep - Dem?

For six years, we gave GWB a rock-solid no-veto-required Majority. Will we do the same for the Obama?

[ICantSpellDawg]

Meanwhile, what kind of Congress are we gonna give the eventual POTUS winner to work with?

Dem - Dem - Dem? (WhiteHouse - Senate - House)

Dem - Dem/Rep - Dem?<---(if I had to place a bet today, I'd put $5 on this one).

Rep - Dem/Rep - Dem?

For six years, we gave GWB a rock-solid no-veto-required Majority. Will we do the same for the Obama?

"Haven't we learned our lesson from a rock solid majority? It will be more important than ever to check any one party that has the Senate and the House. Dems are slated to expand their hold on the House and Senate. I can't control how people vote on Senators in Minnesota, but I can vote for the President. I'll vote for a reasonable Republican who can work with a Democratic congress."

They should make a commercial paraphrasing my little sentiment. It is a winning argument, especially since we have a McCain/Palin ticket of Maverick Reform.

[KukriKhan]

"Haven't we learned our lesson from a rock solid majority? It will be more important than ever to check any one party that has the Senate and the House. Dems are slated to expand their hold on the House and Senate. I can't control how people vote on Senators in Minnesota, but I can vote for the President. I'll vote for a reasonable Republican who can work with a Democratic congress."

They should make a commercial paraphrasing my little sentiment. It is a winning argument, especially since we have a McCain/Palin ticket of Maverick Reform.

I won't be surprised to see such an ad around October 20th, when both sides really scramble to pick up the remaining Indys/Undecideds. :bow:

[ICantSpellDawg]

Daily Kos bashes Palin for being a Governor and a mother at the same time. (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/31/112023/479/620/581122)

I love these guys. I thought we were meant to be after they started spreading the rumor that Sarah Palin is was lying about giving birth to her newborn son, Trigg.
Their new headline is:
Palin leaves infant disabled son to jetset around the country

Operation: Attack Sarah using her child who has downs syndrome. I thought the left only went after people with downs syndrome before they were born? Scum.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_syndrome

A 2002 literature review of elective abortion rates found that 91–93% of pregnancies with a diagnosis of Down syndrome were terminated.[24] Physicians and ethicists are concerned about the ethical ramifications of this.[25] Conservative commentator George Will called it "eugenics by abortion".[26] British peer Brian Rix stated that "alas, the birth of a child with Down's syndrome is still considered by many to be an utter tragedy" and that the "ghost of the biologist Sir Francis Galton, who founded the eugenics movement in 1885, still stalks the corridors of many a teaching hospital".[27] Doctor David Mortimer has argued in Ethics & Medicine that "Down's syndrome infants have long been disparaged by some doctors and government bean counters."[28] Some members of the disability rights movement "believe that public support for prenatal diagnosis and abortion based on disability contravenes the movement's basic philosophy and goals."[29]

A 1998 study of Finnish doctors found that "Only very few, pediatricians somewhat more often, thought that Down's syndrome is not a good enough reason for pregnancy termination, but more (15-21%) thought that current prenatal screenings in general are (partly) based on eugenic thinking."

Also - if Trigg is her daughter' and was born in April - how is Bristol 5 months pregnant now? (http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/01/1318541.aspx) She would have had to have gotten re-pregnant a month before she had her child...?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Obama's education dwarfs that of Palin's. His state senate experience is equal to or better then her time in Wasilla, and the same can be said regarding his US Senate experience vs. her single year as Gov. Not to mention that Obama has been almost always been in some form of public service role since 1992.

His pedigree is far superior.

I must laugh at your comparison between the state senate and being a mayor.

It seems to me, in a machine politics state like Illinois, that being elected as a cog of that machine while facing no real opposition because you kicked them out of the race on technical grounds is very easy; you simply vote as the machine tells you to.

A mayor, on the other hand, even of a small town, has to think.

And what he's mainly done after being elected to the US senate while facing a carpet bagger republican is campaign for President. That seems to be most of his public life; using his current role to step up to a bigger one. His 'community organizer' role was merely organized political extortion.

It's inconceivable to me how the dems can say Palin has zero experience, with Obama at the top of their ticket.

Obama has no executive experience. In the Senate he's hardly passed any legislation of his own. He's done nothing, really, but thinks he can run the USA.

In world diplomacy he'd get hammered worse than Kennedy did in his first meeting with the head of the USSR.

CR

[Strike For The South]

I like how the woman goes on to say she left her 3 month infant to go back to work to, she just had emotions about it. Whose to say Palin didn't? Im all for ruining these peoples lives and railroading them into the ground but Im sure the dailykos can do better than that.

[m52nickerson]

Do you really believe that her being the mayor of Wasilla from 1996-2002 (after being in the city council since 1992) is inferior to Barack's 13th district? Here is a map of the Illinois State Senate breakdown.Link (http://www.illinoisatlas.com/illinois/political/political.htm#). The differences between Biden and McCain on experience are similar in scope to the difference between Palin and Obama. In addition to that seeming equality Palin has had executive experience RUNNING things, while Obama up until this year has run nothing but an office in a massive building.

And to top it all - Palin isn't running for president - she knows she would be better in the #2 spot at the moment. If Obama could get past the hubris he'd see that it might be more appropriate for him to be in the second spot. Obama has started competing in the minds of voters with the Republican vice president. When they come out favorably in his favor (which is a 50-50 chance), he still has to compete with the presidential nominee. You'll have him run 2 elections, Count.

Yes, I believe his experience in a state level position is greater then her experience at a city level position. Just as I believe that experience at the federal level is better then experience at the state level.

No, she is not running for president, but she is running for VP under a person of 72 years of age.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Yes, I believe his experience in a state level position is greater then her experience at a city level position. Just as I believe that experience at the federal level is better then experience at the state level.

No, she is not running for president, but she is running for VP under a person of 72 years of age.

????

You believe that a Senator is more suitable for the Presidency than a Governor just because of the State/Federal Divide? I don't. My State Senator has hardly anything to do with how my town is run on a day to day basis.

A Mayor/State Senator ratio is similar to the State Governor/Federal Senator ratio.

Ironically but not directly related:
Obama was a smoker up until this year and is going to be the first minority in the Presidency - maybe his statistical likelihood of surviving into his second term isn't much greater than McCain's...? He could die in office, but he probably won't. By the time Palin took over the presidency she would have a 95% chance of having much more experience when she takes the reigns than Obama will entering the same position at the top of his ticket.

It is safe to say that she has much more immediately applicable experience and is perfectly suitable to be a VP candidate.

[JR-]

isn't all this blather about Obama being more experienced really just ignoring the elephant in the room, i.e. that Palin is just the VeeP and McCain dwarf's them both?

[Lemur]

And McCain's experience is almost entirely legislative as well, he hasn't been mayor of anything. And none of them have been President before, so you could legitimately say that they're all unqualified, and the only people with real experience are George W. Bush and Jimmy Carter. Maybe they can rule together?

[ICantSpellDawg]

isn't all this blather about Obama being more experienced really just ignoring the elephant in the room, i.e. that Palin is just the VeeP and McCain dwarf's them both?

When brought to its logical conclusion it is. Thanks, Obama campaign for bringing this up for discussion.

[ICantSpellDawg]

And McCain's experience is almost entirely legislative as well, he hasn't been mayor of anything. And none of them have been President before, so you could legitimately say that they're all unqualified, and the only people with real experience are George W. Bush and Jimmy Carter. Maybe they can rule together?

...And HW Bush (CIA Director, Vice President for 2 terms, ambassador to the UN, Liason to China, U.S. Congressman), And Regan (Governor, Actor) and Clinton (Governor, Attorney General)... Why would you pick the two least popular presidents in modern history?

[m52nickerson]

????

You believe that a Senator is more suitable for the Presidency than a Governor just because of the State/Federal Divide? I don't. My State Senator has hardly anything to do with how my town is run on a day to day basis.

A Mayor/State Senator ratio is similar to the State Governor/Federal Senator ratio.

Depends on the senator, but overall I think experience at the federal level as a senator or a representative is better then that of a Governor. Yes, a governor does gain executive experience, but that experience is at a state level, and lets not pretend that each state governor seat in this country is equal.

No executive experience is any were near that of the Office of the President.

Experience at the federal level persons get to see first hand how the executive branch is run and how each decision affects not only that level of government, but the ones below.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I always thought LBJ was a Governor from Texas. Oops

[Lemur]

A couple of miniature, bite-sized scandalettes:

Palin apparently believes that the Founding Fathers wrote (http://eagleforumalaska.blogspot.com/2006/07/2006-gubernatorial-candidate.html) the Pledge of Allegiance. She also believes that marriage is defined in the Constitution.


Do you support the Alaska Supreme Court’s ruling that spousal benefits for state employees should be given to same-sex couples? Why or why not?

SP: No, I believe spousal benefits are reserved for married citizens as defined in our constitution.

Are you offended by the phrase “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance? Why or why not?

SP: Not on your life. If it was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me and I’ll fight in defense of our Pledge of Allegiance.

She also belongs to the Alaska Independence Party (http://www.akip.org/), a group with secessionist aims. From their 2008 platform:


The Alaskan Independence Party's goal is the vote we were entitled to in 1958, one choice from among the following four alternatives:

1) Remain a Territory.
2) Become a separate and Independent Nation.
3) Accept Commonwealth status.
4) Become a State.

[...] The call for this vote is in furtherance of the dream ... to achieve independence.

Oh, and her opposition to the "Bridge to Nowhere" was just to the physical bridge itself. The money was okay by her (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CVN_BRIDGE_TO_NOWHERE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2008-08-31-15-28-19), and she made sure Alaska got it.


Gov. Sarah Palin was for the infamous "Bridge to Nowhere" before she was against it, a change of position the GOP vice presidential running mate ignored Saturday when she bragged about telling Congress "thanks but no thanks" to the pork barrel project. [...]

"If our state wanted a bridge, I said we'd build it ourselves," she said.

She didn't talk that way when she was running for governor. The Anchorage Daily News quoted her on Oct. 22, 2006, as saying yes, she would continue state funding for the bridge because she wanted swift action on infrastructure projects. "The window is now while our congressional delegation is in a strong position to assist," she said. [...]

According to the Ketchikan Daily News, the bridge issue came up on Sept. 20, 2006, during an appearance the gubernatorial candidates made in Ketchikan.

"The money that's been appropriated for the project, it should remain available for a link, an access process as we continue to evaluate the scope and just how best to just get this done," the newspaper quoted Palin as saying. "This link is a commitment to help Ketchikan expand its access, to help this community prosper."

The newspaper also reported that she said "I think we're going to make a good team as we progress that bridge project."

None of this is a deal-breaker, but it's also stuff McCain would have known had he properly vetted Palin.

[m52nickerson]

Now, how much does experience matter?

I think that there is a certain level of experience and or education level needed for someone to be trusted in the Oval Office. I see McCain, Obama and Biden having that level. I don't think Palin does.

I don't see 20 months as governor of the a state with less then a million people and a degree in communications as enough.

[Lemur]

Mmm, and don't forget that Alaska has so much oil money that they never have to worry about balancing their own budget. It's unlike any other state in that way. A well-groomed schnauser could govern Alaska and not do much harm.

[ICantSpellDawg]

She also believes that marriage is defined in the Constitution.

[I]Do you support the Alaska Supreme Court’s ruling that spousal benefits for state employees should be given to same-sex couples? Why or why not?

SP: No, I believe spousal benefits are reserved for married citizens as defined in our constitution.


She meant the Alaskan Constitution - which recognizes marriage as between a man and a woman.
http://ltgov.state.ak.us/constitution.php?section=1

Here's a funny article on some of the many Obama Gaffes.

Link (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MWZjY2YzZWVkMjdkMDEzMGQ0MjJkNTUyN2FkNmMzYTc=)
Barack Gaffes
The Obama machine.

By Michelle Malkin

All it takes is one gaffe to taint a Republican for life. The political establishment never let Dan Quayle live down his fateful misspelling of “potatoe.” The New York Times distorted and misreported the first President Bush’s questions about new scanner technology at a grocers’ convention to brand him permanently as out of touch.

But what about Barack Obama? The guy’s a perpetual gaffe machine. Let us count the ways, large and small, that his tongue has betrayed him throughout the campaign:

Last May, he claimed that tornadoes in Kansas killed a whopping 10,000 people: “In case you missed it, this week, there was a tragedy in Kansas. Ten thousand people died — an entire town destroyed.” The actual death toll: 12.

Earlier this month in Oregon, he redrew the map of the United States: “Over the last 15 months, we’ve traveled to every corner of the United States. I’ve now been in 57 states? I think one left to go.”

Last week, in front of a roaring Sioux Falls, S.D., audience, Obama exulted: “Thank you, Sioux City. ... I said it wrong. I’ve been in Iowa for too long. I’m sorry.”

Explaining last week why he was trailing Hillary Clinton in Kentucky, Obama again botched basic geography: “Sen. Clinton, I think, is much better known, coming from a nearby state of Arkansas. So it’s not surprising that she would have an advantage in some of those states in the middle.” On what map is Arkansas closer to Kentucky than Illinois?

Obama has as much trouble with numbers as he has with maps. Last March, on the anniversary of the Bloody Sunday march in Selma, Ala., he claimed his parents united as a direct result of the civil rights movement: “There was something stirring across the country because of what happened in Selma, Ala., because some folks are willing to march across a bridge. So they got together and Barack Obama Jr. was born.”

Obama was born in 1961. The Selma march took place in 1965. His spokesman, Bill Burton, later explained that Obama was “speaking metaphorically about the civil-rights movement as a whole.”

Earlier this month in Cape Girardeau, Mo., Obama showed off his knowledge of the war in Afghanistan by homing in on a lack of translators: “We only have a certain number of them, and if they are all in Iraq, then it’s harder for us to use them in Afghanistan.” The real reason it’s “harder for us to use them” in Afghanistan: Iraqis speak Arabic or Kurdish. The Afghanis speak Pashto, Farsi, or other non-Arabic languages.

Over the weekend in Oregon, Obama pleaded ignorance of the decades-old, multibillion-dollar massive Hanford nuclear-waste cleanup: “Here’s something that you will rarely hear from a politician, and that is that I’m not familiar with the Hanford, uuuuhh, site, so I don’t know exactly what’s going on there. (Applause.) Now, having said that, I promise you I’ll learn about it by the time I leave here on the ride back to the airport.”

I assume on that ride, a staffer reminded him that he’s voted on at least one defense-authorization bill that addressed the “costs, schedules, and technical issues” dealing with the nation’s most contaminated nuclear-waste site.

Last March, the Chicago Tribune reported this little-noticed nugget about a fake autobiographical detail in Obama’s Dreams from My Father: “Then, there’s the copy of Life magazine that Obama presents as his racial awakening at age 9. In it, he wrote, was an article and two accompanying photographs of an African-American man physically and mentally scarred by his efforts to lighten his skin. In fact, the Life article and the photographs don’t exist, say the magazine’s own historians.”

And in perhaps the most seriously troubling set of gaffes of them all, Obama told a Portland crowd over the weekend that Iran doesn’t “pose a serious threat to us” — cluelessly arguing that “tiny countries” with small defense budgets can’t do us harm — and then promptly flip-flopped the next day, claiming, “I’ve made it clear for years that the threat from Iran is grave.”

Barack Obama — promoted by the Left and the media as an all-knowing, articulate, transcendent Messiah — is a walking, talking gaffe machine. How many more passes does he get? How many more can we afford?

[ICantSpellDawg]

Mmm, and don't forget that Alaska has so much oil money that they never have to worry about balancing their own budget. It's unlike any other state in that way. A well-groomed schnauser could govern Alaska and not do much harm.

You are funny. You play un-biased in order to sound reasonable when you are just as partisan as the rest of us, but more coy about it.

[Strike For The South]

You are funny. You play un-biased in order to sound reasonable when you are just as partisan as the rest of us, but more coy about it.

But he right. It was just like running Texas in the 70s when opec decided to get uppity. money makes allot of social ills go away.

[m52nickerson]

You are funny. You play un-biased in order to sound reasonable when you are just as partisan as the rest of us, but more coy about it.

....but his point does go to the point that not all the Governor offices are equal.

[Lemur]

And if my partisanship is all you've got left to argue about, Tuff, I'd say you're clicking on an empty magazine. Time to reload.

-edit-

Oh wow, Michelle Malkin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt_YcQlYxyY) has a hit piece on Obama? Shocking, I say! Boy, it sure is a good thing that two seconds with Google doesn't turn up the exact same thing for McCain. Oh, wait, it does (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/11939.html). Funny that. And it's not even from a partisan hack's blog! Quality stuff!

McCain gaffes pile up; critics pile on
By: Mike Allen and Jim VandeHei
July 22, 2008 01:10 PM EST

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) said “Iraq” on Monday when he apparently meant “Afghanistan”, adding to a string of mixed-up word choices that is giving ammunition to the opposition.

Just in the past three weeks, McCain has also mistaken "Somalia" for "Sudan," and even football’s Green Bay Packers for the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Ironically, the errors have been concentrated in what should be his area of expertise: foreign affairs.

McCain will turn 72 the day after Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) accepts his party’s nomination for president at the age of 47, calling new attention to the sensitive issue of McCain’s advanced age three days before the start of his own convention.

The McCain campaign says Obama has had plenty of flubs of his own, including a reference to "57 states" and a string of misstated place names during the primaries that Republicans gleefully sent around as YouTube links.

McCain aides point out that he spends much more time than Obama talking extemporaneously, taking questions from voters and reporters. "Being human and tripping over your tongue occasionally doesn't mean a thing," a top McCain official said.

But McCain's mistakes raise a serious, if uncomfortable question: Are the gaffes the result of his age? And what could that mean in the Oval Office?

Voters, thinking about their own relatives, can be expected to scrutinize McCain’s debate performances for signs of slippage.

Every voter has a parent, grandparent or a friend whose mental acuity declined as they grew older. It happens at different times for different people — and there is ample evidence many people in their 70s are as sharp and fit as ever.

In McCain’s case, his medical records, public appearances and travel schedule have suggested he remains at the top of his game.

But his liberal critics have been pouncing on every misstatement as a sign that he’s an old man.

Late-night comics have made McCain’s age an almost nightly topic, with CBS’s David Letterman getting a laugh just about any time he says the words “McCain” and “nap” in the same sentence.

Last week, McCain tried to defuse the issue by pretending to doze off during an appearance on NBC’s "Late Night with Conan O’Brien."

Republicans would like to make the case that McCain is seasoned and Obama is a callow newcomer to the public stage. But that’ll be harder if he keeps up the verbal slips, which make it easier for comedians and critics to pile on.

“First Gaffe of Obama Trip ... Goes To McCain,” blared Monday afternoon’s banner headline on the left-leaning Huffington Post, accompanied by a photo of McCain appearing to slap his forehead.

That referred to an ABCNews.com posting asserting that McCain appeared to confuse Iraq and Afghanistan in a “Good Morning America” interview with ABC’s Diane Sawyer, who asked whether the "the situation in Afghanistan is precarious and urgent.”

McCain responded: “I'm afraid it's a very hard struggle, particularly given the situation on the Iraq/Pakistan border." The ABC posting added: “Iraq and Pakistan do not share a border. Afghanistan and Pakistan do.”

Unfortunately for McCain, that wasn’t an isolated slip. Among the other lapses:

• “Somalia” for “Sudan”: As recounted in a reporter’s pool report from McCain’s Straight Talk Express bus on June 30, the senator said while discussing Darfur, a region of Sudan: "How can we bring pressure on the government of Somalia?"

Senior adviser Mark Salter corrected him: “Sudan.”

• “Germany” for “Russia”: A YouTube clip from last year memorializes McCain referring to Vladimir Putin of Russia — following a trip to Germany — as “President Putin of Germany.”

• This spring, McCain said troops in Iraq were “down to pre-surge levels” when in fact there were 20,000 more troops than when the surge policy began.

• Also this spring, McCain twice appeared to mistake Sunnis and Shiites, two branches of Islam that split violently.

• In Phoenix earlier this month, McCain referred to Czechoslovakia, which has been divided since Jan. 1, 1993, into the Czech Republic and Slovakia. He also referred to Czechoslovakia during a debate in November and a radio show in April.

• In perhaps the most curious incident, McCain said earlier this month that as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, he had tried to confuse his captors by giving the names of Pittsburgh Steelers starting players when asked to identify his squadron mates. McCain has told the story many times over the years — but always correctly referred to the names he gave as members of the Green Bay Packers.

[ICantSpellDawg]

....but his point does go to the point that not all the Governor offices are equal.

They aren't all equal, you're right. Look how great a job Bush did with his population of 23 Million Texans.

Lemur, Is it your position that Sarah Palin is unsuitable for the office of VP?
Are you for Obama now, can you admit that he is the candidate that you have chosen in this election?

[Lemur]

An excellent point, Tuff. Bush was, by most accounts, an acceptable governor of a large, diverse and difficult state. Admittedly, he liked to execute retarded people, but nobody's perfect.

So how does this reflect on this long, tedious argument about experience? Shouldn't George W. Bush have been a fantastic President with that pedigree? And who had more experience than Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld? By the yardsticks you're using, surely the last eight years should have been a triumph of seasoned, mature, reasonable, stable leadership.

The lesson I take away is to beware of ideologues and idealists. They'll **** you every time. Stick to pragmatists and moderates, and you'll make out okay.


Lemur, Is it your position that Sarah Palin is unsuitable for the office of VP? Are you for Obama now, can you admit that he is the candidate that you have chosen in this election?

My point is that I don't know, neither do you, and neither did McCain when he picked her. This politico from Northern Exposure was not fact-checked, was not vetted, and represents a large gamble on the part of McCain. It's ballsy, but also risky as hell. She makes the base as happy as catnip, sure, but there are a mountain of unknowns about her.

As for how I'm leaning, let me tell you a little something, kid. I was 100% for McCain in 2000. I gave him money, put out a yardsign, pretty much devoted myself to him. I liked who he was and what he was doing. I thought Bush was an unserious person who should not be allowed within 100 miles of the White House.

Anyway, that's ancient history. The McCain I'm seeing now is bearing less and less resemblance to the man I gave money to and campaigned for. This is kind of sad to me. Seems like every jerk and parasite from the George W. Bush admin is latching onto him. Just look at how the authoritarians in the Backroom have flocked to his standard.

I'm not thrilled with Obama. He has real weaknesses, and he's a gamble. Not anything close to the gamble George W. Bush was, but a hedged gamble nonetheless. I'll admit though, I found the never-ending parade of nonsense attacks on him nothing short of infuriating. This should be a serious election, not another silly one.

That's a peek inside my head. If it would make you more ... comfortable to decry me as a fanatical Obama believer who can't walk straight because I have so many stars in my eyes, go right ahead.

[Strike For The South]

They aren't all equal, you're right. Look how great a job Bush did with his population of 23 Million Texans.

Lemur, Is it your position that Sarah Palin is unsuitable for the office of VP?

yea he did damn good job as governor. He took a Texas education agency which was horrible and made it actually kind of respectable, We had a surplus, He was one of the leading proponent of wind energy and natural gas extraction which is weaning west Texas of oil. Texas was a better state when he left it. All this goes to show is experience doesn't mean jack. For Obama or Palin or anyone

[ICantSpellDawg]

The lesson I take away is to beware of ideologues and idealists. They'll **** you every time. Stick to pragmatists and moderates, and you'll make out okay.

Do you believe that Obama is a moderate? I believe that McCain is a moderate, but I believe that Obama is an ideologue and an idealist.

[Lemur]

I believe that Obama is an ideologue and an idealist.
Keep reading your National Review, watching Fox News and clicking on Michelle Malkin, and that's all you're ever going to believe. If that's what makes you comfortable, have fun.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Keep reading your National Review, watching Fox News and clicking on Michelle Malkin, and that's all you're ever going to believe. If that's what makes you comfortable, have fun.

You believe that he is a moderate? Even though he has never voted against his party interest. Maybe he will transform in his presidency because he just used the Democratic party to get into power. I wouldn't mind that, it happens all the time.

When I call you partisan, I don't mean that you are a Democratic Party die-hard. I mean it in the strictest sense. You are firmly in the Obama camp, not because he is a democrat or that you are a hardcore liberal, but that you have picked your side in a clash between two "parties" - those for Obama vs. those for McCain. Democrat/Republican is irrelevant in the strict definition.

I am partisan - I am for McCain in this contest unless he does something unconscionable. Can you admit who you are for yet? That is a part of honesty and truth too.

PS - I don't like or read Malkin since she attacked the Pope relentlessly for going against the war and a bunch of other things. Her article just summed up a few of the gaffes going around so I posted it. I also don't read the National Review unless one of their articles is on RealClearPolitics. I am a conservative I freely admit, but I don't just go after the talking points.

[Lemur]

Yeah, fair enough. I've decided against McCain, and it's not for any of the reasons that have been discussed here. It's age. I just don't like the risk of a man that age being asked to do that big of a job. The problem is that you can get nutty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dementia) in your seventies and not even know it (http://www.injuryboard.com/national-news/cognitive-decline-may-begin-15-years-before-death.aspx?googleid=246462).

2000 was McCain's year, and if Bush/Rove hadn't slimed him out of it, he would have been a fantastic President. We'd be celebrating the end of his final service to the nation right about now. But in 2008 I think he's too old.

This, for me, is the deal-breaker.

-edit-

P.S.: That said, I still would have taken him gladly over Clinton or Giuliani. That would have been a no-brainer. I'd take the risk of a mentally declining President over an authoritarian any day of the week. But since I have a high estimation of both McCain and Obama, I'll take the man at he peak of his powers as opposed to the man in decline.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Hot damn, Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant:
http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/20080901/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_palin_daughter_10


Palin says 17-year-old daughter is pregnant

ST. PAUL, Minn. – John McCain's running mate Sarah Palin said Monday that her 17-year-old unmarried daughter is five months pregnant, an announcement campaign aides said was aimed at rebutting Internet rumors that Palin's youngest son, born in April, was actually her daughter's.

A statement released by the campaign said that Bristol Palin will keep her baby and marry the child's father. Bristol Palin's baby is due in late December.

"Our beautiful daughter Bristol came to us with news that as parents we knew would make her grow up faster than we had ever planned. We're proud of Bristol's decision to have her baby and even prouder to become grandparents," Sarah and Todd Palin said in the brief statement.

The disclosure of the pregnancy came on the opening day of the Republican National Convention, scaled back because of Hurricane Gustav, and three days after McCain named Palin as his running mate. Other news was likely to overshadow the disclosure.

The internet blogs fired off a shot of crazy and actually came in the vicinity of the truth. This will only make them more crazy. Reminds me of a Dilbert cartoon.


And McCain's experience is almost entirely legislative as well, he hasn't been mayor of anything. And none of them have been President before, so you could legitimately say that they're all unqualified, and the only people with real experience are George W. Bush and Jimmy Carter. Maybe they can rule together?

What about slick Willy? And yes, I don't like the fact that the rest of the candidates are Senators.

CR

[Xiahou]

Hot damn, Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant:
http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/20080901/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_palin_daughter_10I guess Sarah is the mother of baby Trig afterall, who'd have guessed? ~:handball:
It'll be interesting to see what track the Democrats take with her daughter's pregnancy. I think they had better be careful about using a 17 year old girl in their attacks. The risk of backlash would be high.


I'll admit though, I found the never-ending parade of nonsense attacks on him nothing short of infuriating. This should be a serious election, not another silly one.Look in the mirror lately? Go read your last few posts. Trolling up Palin attacks from liberal blogs and then having the stones to criticize others for referencing conservative ones...:laugh:

[Lemur]

Ah, I was wondering when we would hear from our resident True Believer. Feel free to note the "liberal blogs" I've been linking to to support my points, friend.

[Xiahou]

Ah, I was wondering when we would hear from our resident True Believer. Feel free to note the "liberal blogs" I've been linking to to support my points, friend.Nevermind, you've obviously googled up all of your petty attacks independently and didn't pick them up from blogs. It's just a coincidence- Im certain. :yes:

Of course, then there are the one's you don't even source at all- like the Alaska Independence Party claim. Newsflash, she's a Republican. :dizzy2:
Following your previously stated logic, I expect you'll soon start sticking up for Palin as you play Devil's Advocate in response to your own "nonsense" attacks.

[Lemur]

My point is that I don't know, neither do you, and neither did McCain when he picked her. This politico from Northern Exposure was not fact-checked, was not vetted, and represents a large gamble on the part of McCain. It's ballsy, but also risky as hell. She makes the base as happy as catnip, sure, but there are a mountain of unknowns about her.
That is the reason all of these micro-scandals are important, devoted rightwing footsoldier. Admit it -- McCain didn't vet her, didn't check her background, etc. If you're willing to 'fess up to that, what does it say?

And you're right, of course, how could anyone ever tie Palin to the secessionist Alaskan Independence Party (http://www.akip.org/conv08.html)? That's just left-wing crazytalk.

[ICantSpellDawg]

That is the reason all of these micro-scandals are important, devoted rightwing footsoldier. Admit it -- McCain didn't vet her, didn't check her background, etc. If you're willing to 'fess up to that, what does it say?

And you're right, of course, how could anyone ever tie Palin to the secessionist Alaskan Independence Party (http://www.akip.org/conv08.html)? That's just left-wing crazytalk.

Well; McCain said that he knew that her daughter was pregnant, The FBI did a background check and his counsel consistently pushed Palin for VP behind closed doors, she has a public record, etc. What do you mean by "vetted"?

Also, she consistently refers to the party as "your party" and how it is good to have competition between parties in Alaska. Did you watch the video? She is clearly a Republican. She was a member of the party before she became mayor of Wasila. The "party platform" does not include secession. Some democrats want Gay marriage. Is it fair to say that they all do? It is essentially a state's right party. Are they radically racist, violent or horrible in some way? Are you going to try to make the party into the KKK or the Communist party?

[Xiahou]

That is the reason all of these micro-scandals are important, devoted rightwing footsoldier. Admit it -- McCain didn't vet her, didn't check her background, etc. If you're willing to 'fess up to that, what does it say?I have no idea how well the McCain campaign vetted her. Unless his staff is completely incompetent, I would imagine that they did quite a bit.

I think I see where you're coming from though- Since you don't think she was vetted, you see it as your civic duty to throw all the mud you can at her in the hopes that some of it sticks. How noble of you. That's totally different than people making wild claims about Obama. :yes:


And you're right, of course, how could anyone ever tie Palin to the secessionist Alaskan Independence Party (http://www.akip.org/conv08.html)? That's just left-wing crazytalk.So what part of the following is true again? :inquisitive:

She also belongs to the Alaska Independence Party (http://www.akip.org/), a group with secessionist aims.

[Lemur]

I have no idea how well the McCain campaign vetted her. Unless his staff is completely incompetent, I would imagine that they did quite a bit.
"Quite a bit" is an interesting phrase. Could mean something, could mean nothing.


So what part of the following is true again? :inquisitive:
She may not claim them, but they claim her (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHFY1otOWjQ). It's an arguable point, and I'm not going to defend it to death, but I wasn't spouting complete nonsense, as you seem to believe.

So have you contributed to McCain/Palin yet, Xiahou?

[Crazed Rabbit]

I guess Sarah is the mother of baby Trig afterall, who'd have guessed? ~:handball:


Uh, actually I don't think she is.

CR

[ICantSpellDawg]

Uh, actually I don't think she is.

CR

Yea me neither. If it wasn't Bristol's maybe she got the baby from somewhere else? Maybe Trigg is her mothers baby and Sarah jealously wanted another baby and used her gubernatorial power to steal her new brother and erase her mother's memory. I'm sure this can be corroborated by fact or at the very least outright lies and disturbing conjecture.

[Xiahou]

She may not claim them, but they claim her (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHFY1otOWjQ). It's an arguable point, and I'm not going to defend it to death, but I wasn't spouting complete nonsense, as you seem to believe.Congratulations, I watched almost 5 minutes of that looking for where they claimed her as a member before stopping it.... It is nonsense, because she isn't a member. She's a member of the Republican party- it's not like this is privileged information or anything. The only thing anyone has come up with is her addressing their party via video where she tries to point out common ground on love of the state and respect for the Constitution, ect. Seeing as the AIP actually had their candidate as governor previously, I think I could understand a politician making at least some effort to woo a few of their voters.

I had thought, just maybe, after all of your bemoaning of "baseless" attacks against Obama that you might be willing to dig just a little bit deeper before trotting out attacks on another candidate. But, you're free to act however you want.


So have you contributed to McCain/Palin yet, Xiahou?Nope, nor will I. I've never donated money to any political campaign. If I'm going to give away my hard earned money, I can think of many other more worthy causes than a politician. However, if Palin holds up over the next couple months, I may end up voting for the ticket.

[Lemur]

They talk about Palin at the 6 minute mark. Claim her as theirs at 6:20.

ABC's Jake Tapper (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/just-askin.html) asks an amusing question:


What would the response be if Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois, and his wife Michelle had a pregnant unmarried teenage daughter?

Would it be possible for me to get a simulated response from DevDave?

[ICantSpellDawg]

They talk about Palin at the 6 minute mark. Claim her as theirs at 6:20.

ABC's Jake Tapper (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/just-askin.html) asks an amusing question:


What would the response be if Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois, and his wife Michelle had a pregnant unmarried teenage daughter?

Would it be possible for me to get a simulated response from DevDave?

I would freak because his daughters are like 10 and 13. Obama mentioned the reality that his own mother gave birth to him at 18. It'd probably not be the best decision to consciously make at that age, but it is much better than the alternative of killing the child.

I'd probably give them credit for not suggesting that their daughter kill their grandchild. I'd only make a big deal out of it if their parents encouraged them to have sex or put the baby there...

You can't control your kids - they make their own choices in life. Sometimes those choices are big and bring children into the mix. You can speculate all you'd like that the pro-lifers on this board would ridicule Obama and make him seem like a degenerate. Maybe we'd even post the story in all of our callous and low class taste?

[Lemur]

Here's another one of them liberal blogs (http://frum.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTkyNjQ4MTYzMmY1NTkzNDlmMzQ3OGQ4ODJlNTVkZTU=) that gets Xiahou's dander up. Good advice, though, for some of the conservatives on this board who like to bang on about the "empty suit."


Can we conservatives please stop kidding ourselves about Barack Obama's "qualifications"? Yes, if I had been a Democratic donor back in 2006, I'd sure worry about whether Barack Obama had what it took to be president. That was before he took on the toughest political operation in America, before he beat Bill and Hillary Clinton, before he won 18 million primary votes.

Obama's nomination was not handed to him. He fought hard for it and won against the odds. "Qualifications" predict achievement. Once you have achieved, it doesn't matter what your qualifications are. Who cares whether the guy who built a big company from nothing didn't have much of a resume when he started? But if you are applying to run a big company built by somebody else, the resume matters ...

The worst mistake in any fight is to under-estimate your opponent's abilities. Look what happened to the people who under-estimated Reagan. If conservatives are to have any hope in the coming weeks, we should wake up to the fact that we face in Barack Obama a formidable man, who appeals to something important and deep in the American electorate. He's not a superman, he has vulnerabilities, he can be beaten. But he won't be beaten until we who are trying to beat him understand why and how he has come so far ...

[KukriKhan]

Obama mentioned the reality that his own mother gave birth to him at 18.

Just to expand a bit on TuffStuffMcGruff's observation, HERE's (http://embeds.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/09/01/obama-says-palin-pregnancy-off-limits/) the text of his statement on the matter:


“I have heard some of the news on this and so let me be a clear as possible: I have said before and I will repeat again, I think people’s families are off limits, and people’s children are especially off limits. This shouldn’t be part of our politics,” the Democrat said forcefully. “It has no relevance to Governor Palin’s performance as governor, or her potential performance as a VP. And so I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories,” he continued.

The candidate who himself was born to a teenage mom, reminded reporters, “You know my mother had me when she was 18, and how a family deals with issues and you know teenage children, that shouldn’t be the topic of our politics and I hope that anybody who is supporting me understands that’s off limits.”

When asked about an “unnamed McCain advisor” accusing the Obama campaign of spreading despicable rumors surrounding Bristol Palin online, Obama interrupted the reporter mid-question. “I am offended by that statement. There is no evidence at all that any of this involved us,” he said directly. “Our people were not involved in any way in this, and they will not be. And if I ever thought that it was somebody in my campaign that was involved in something like that - they’d be fired,” he added.

With that, Obama boarded his airport-bound bus to head to Milwaukee for a rally.

Gets high marks from me for that, although, if I'd been him I'd have added: "... - they'd be fired and referred for possible prosecution ." Such a sentence would have nailed down his 100% opposition to the tactic, so he wouldn't sound like GWB a year or so ago with "Scooter-gate".

[ICantSpellDawg]

Here's another one of them liberal blogs (http://frum.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTkyNjQ4MTYzMmY1NTkzNDlmMzQ3OGQ4ODJlNTVkZTU=) that gets Xiahou's dander up. Good advice, though, for some of the conservatives on this board who like to bang on about the "empty suit."


Can we conservatives please stop kidding ourselves about Barack Obama's "qualifications"? Yes, if I had been a Democratic donor back in 2006, I'd sure worry about whether Barack Obama had what it took to be president. That was before he took on the toughest political operation in America, before he beat Bill and Hillary Clinton, before he won 18 million primary votes.

Obama's nomination was not handed to him. He fought hard for it and won against the odds. "Qualifications" predict achievement. Once you have achieved, it doesn't matter what your qualifications are. Who cares whether the guy who built a big company from nothing didn't have much of a resume when he started? But if you are applying to run a big company built by somebody else, the resume matters ...

The worst mistake in any fight is to under-estimate your opponent's abilities. Look what happened to the people who under-estimated Reagan. If conservatives are to have any hope in the coming weeks, we should wake up to the fact that we face in Barack Obama a formidable man, who appeals to something important and deep in the American electorate. He's not a superman, he has vulnerabilities, he can be beaten. But he won't be beaten until we who are trying to beat him understand why and how he has come so far ...

So the argument in favor of Obama's lack of experience is that we gave him a chance and he exceeded our expectations? Don't you think it would make sense to extend the same courtesy to Sarah Palin, since she is only going for the number 2 slot? I was in the pro-Obama camp because I recognized his talent and hated Clinton. I just think Palin has some serious talent and maybe we should wait for a few more speeches before we go into onslaught mode against her, Lemur. You really haven't given her a chance at all for such a fair minded guy.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Here is a pretty fair article about what McCain is doing. It's like Jay Cost is in my brain and laying out my arguments better than I ever could...

What the Heck is McCain Up To?
By Jay Cost
Link (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/horseraceblog/2008/09/what_the_heck_is_mccain_up_to.html)

That seems to be the question this Labor Day. The Palin pick surprised everybody, and the reaction to it has not been moderate. Analysts tend either to be pleased or pissed.

I want to move beyond their back-and-forth. Too much of it seems to depend implicitly upon whether picking Palin makes McCain a hypocrite, given his attacks on Obama. I don't think that is a particularly helpful discussion, as everybody will probably answer it based upon which candidate they had been supporting. So, in an effort to analyze the Palin pick without getting into the scrum, I offer a few considerations.

First, this pick is not a Hail Mary pass, as was Bob Dole's selection of Jack Kemp. Kemp fit on a Dole ticket as well as Ronald Reagan would have fit on Gerald Ford's '76 ticket. Unlike the '96 ticket, there is a natural affinity between McCain and Palin. Both stand athwart the same forces in their party, both do so for the professed sake of the public interest, and so both are insurgents. Palin challenged the powers that be in the Alaska Republican Party. McCain challenged the powers of the national GOP.

In other words, Palin appears to be a younger, female version of John McCain. She embodies his best qualities. This is why the pick cannot be dismissed as mere pandering. There are compelling reasons to pick Palin in addition to her being a woman. Was her gender a factor? Sure, but I don't think it was the principal factor. If it were, he would have gone for Meg Whitman, Carly Fiorina, Kay Bailey Hutchison, or others.

In fact, of all the candidates mentioned at various points in time for McCain, only Bobby Jindal fits the maverick/reformer image as well as Sarah Palin. This is why Jack Kelly - an incisive columnist at my hometown paper and certainly no fan of identity politics - was trumpeting her back in June.

Second, the issue of Palin's qualifications is complicated. The left is enthusiastically attacking her credentials. The right is just as enthusiastic in its defense. There's no clear-cut winner here. If she were clearly unqualified, McCain would not have selected her. If she were clearly qualified, she probably would have been the GOP's presidential nominee.

Here's my take on her qualifications. Historically speaking, she has enough experience to be veep. We can talk about what happens if McCain drops dead on day one, but that sounds tendentious to me - like asking what President Obama would do should Vladimir Putin declare World War III on the day of Obama's inauguration. It sounds smart to people already set upon voting against Obama, but everybody else will probably just roll his or her eyes.

Does this mean her qualifications will be a non-issue? Not necessarily. She has fewer qualifications than most veeps, that's for sure. Her thin resume could hurt her if and only if she performs badly on television. This, and nothing else, is what matters. The people who could vote Republican this year will give her a chance. Jonathan Alter, Andrew Sullivan, and other pro-Obama commentators in the MSM are not going to sway these people, at least not directly. These analysts could frame the persuables' reactions should they decide they don't like her. So, it's up to Palin.

For those who are skeptical that she can pull this off, remember - Obama did! While Obama might be special, he's certainly not singular. Lots of people can give good performances on television, even if they have had little practice. Furthermore, unlike Obama as of a year ago, Palin has already been through a real statewide election. Two, in fact - first against incumbent governor Frank Murkowski, then against former governor Tony Knowles. Obama managed to look so poised without such practice.

The key word for Palin, as it was (and is) for Obama, is poise. She appeared poised at her announcement, which was her most important day. If she appears poised during her nomination acceptance address, poised on the stump, and poised in the debate - her qualifications should be a non-issue, and she'll help McCain deliver his message.

Third, I think many people are surprised to discover that McCain intends to carry a positive message into the fall. Many of us had assumed that this election would be a referendum on Barack Obama, with McCain serving as an inoffensive backup for those too unsure of the junior senator from Illinois. Just a few weeks ago, I used this logic to argue that McCain should select Mitt Romney, as he was the best among the viable picks to go after Obama.

John McCain clearly does not share this view of the race. By picking Palin, he is signaling that he intends to win this election not just by attacking Obama, but by offering an affirmative message of his own.

What is that message? It is that he represents change, too. It's not the "drastic" change that Obama represents, but rather "common sense reform" (scare quotes reflect what we will hear from McCain-Palin, not non-partisan reality). McCain is indicating that he, too, is a candidate whose election would alter the status quo - not as much as Obama's election would, but alter it nonetheless.

Indeed, it is interesting to consider the two tickets. The fresh but inexperienced candidate is at the top of the Democratic ticket; the experienced pol who, even after all these years, "calls it like he sees it" is at the bottom. With the GOP, it's reversed. These tickets are mirror images of one another. The message to voters from McCain? If you're unhappy with the status quo in Washington, but are worried that Obama-Biden would be too drastic a change, vote McCain-Palin.

So, the public gets a pretty sophisticated choice this year. It's not a choice between change versus more of the same. It's a choice between degrees of change. I like this. And while I have no idea how Palin will play, I like that McCain believes he has to offer something positive and new to win.

I still think Obama would have been best served by selecting Hillary Clinton as his nominee. However, given the choice not to select Hillary, I think he made a wise move by picking Joe Biden. As I noted above, Biden is a guy who tells it like it is. So, he adds heft without damaging Obama's core message. The Democrats have a well-balanced ticket. John McCain responded by balancing his ticket well, too.

All things considered, I like these tickets. Together, they give the public a clear choice. Plus, neither offers the public what it certainly does not want, the status quo. People complain all the time about how our two-party system stifles real debate and fails to offer the public a distinct choice. I am optimistic that, when all is said and done, Obama v. McCain will be one that the naysayers won't point to. When they whine about our "failed politics," they'll have to conveniently forget 2008.

[Lemur]

Excellent article, TuffStuff -- thanks for sharing!

[Louis VI the Fat]

Biden is 65, a nationally known politician, and has been operating in the Washington limelight for decades. Everything that's to be said about Biden, for better or for worse, has been said and is out in the open.

Palin is a big question mark, unbeknown to all outside of Alaska until a few days ago. Surely, it is to be expected that every aspect of her life and career will be scrutinised now? That she will be subjected to a close scrutiny of a level and perseverence she never had to endure as mayor of six thousand Polar bears in the arctic? Lots of stories, rumours, half-truths are emerging, and the dust has yet to settle on her past. None of them have had time to be resolved.

So I see no bias in sharing the goods? More specifically, in sharing countless links about Palin?

When Biden was announced, I said in this thread that I had never heard of him before, and that I looked him up in Wiki and CNN. Nothing has emerged since then to expand on what I gathered right there and then. Palin I wiki'ed and CNN'ed too. However, it appears that I didn't even get to know half of her back then as I do by now.


I think we can all agree that she was chosen for political-strategical considerations. She may be perfectly qualified, or not, that fact remains. If she was a 71-year old male from Texas she wouldn't have been vp-candidate.
Whether one approves of her views and political choices is a matter of personal political preference. More important is the question whether McCain made the right judgement call with her. Did he get all the information, and did he get it all correct? Or did he stop at 'female, anti-abortion, young, socially conservative, hunts' ?

[Louis VI the Fat]

As an aside, I think - at least, I hope - that McCain's strategists are sorely mistaken if they hoped Palin would attract Democratic 'Clinton orphans'. Palin is the ultimate insult to Clinton voters. It's Thatcher versus a beauty queen. Fighting for your votes versu getting your position handed to you on a silver platter for being female.
Call me a stopped clock or a broken record, but I wil never cease to be amazed at the difference between racist and sexist sensitivities. Would they have dared to pit an obedient negro boy against Clinton if Obama had lost?
'Looky here negroes! We've got ourselves a little negro too! Surely there's no need to vote for Clinton now that we found you a clean negro to vote for!? Washed and shaven too! Doesn't our boy remind you of Obama? '

[Lemur]

'Looky here negroes! We've got ourselves a little negro too! Surely there's no need to vote for Clinton now that we found you a clean negro to vote for!? Washed and shaven too! Doesn't our boy remind you of Obama? '
Ah, but we have in on record from Joe Biden that Obama already is clean. And Joe stands close enough to smell, so he would know. So they'd have to find something else to sell about a new negro.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Fighting for your votes versu getting your position handed to you on a silver platter for being female.

Palin got the governorship of Alaska by bringing down a member of her own party. She's fought Big Oil up in Alaska. She's reform minded in the same vein as McCain.

Hillary's hardest job in getting elected Senator was finding a house in New York.

I think you need to realize there are actually women other than Hillary more qualified to be political leaders.

CR

[Xiahou]

Here is a pretty fair article about what McCain is doing. It's like Jay Cost is in my brain and laying out my arguments better than I ever could...
That sums up my thinking pretty well too. I would only add (just half-jokingly) that while McCain and Palin have both made a name for themselves by standing up to their party, Palin did so by speaking out against corruption, whereas McCain all too often did so by sandbagging the GOP base. :beam:

On experience, I would say Palin and Obama's experience is somewhat equitable. We could argue about how has more, or more relevant experience, but I would still put them both at least in the same ballpark. The obvious difference, of course, is that one is running for president and one is running for VP. I would not support Palin for president as things stand currently. But if she doesn't fold under the pressure of the campaign and the office of VP I think she could have the potential to be a fine president some day. I could say the same thing of Obama, except being the liberal he is, I would never support him or his policies. :wink:


As an aside, I think - at least, I hope - that McCain's strategists are sorely mistaken if they hoped Palin would attract Democratic 'Clinton orphans'. Palin is the ultimate insult to Clinton voters. It's Thatcher versus a beauty queen. Fighting for your votes versu getting your position handed to you on a silver platter for being female.Based on my own anecdotal observations, I would disagree. My area, in fact my entire state went heavily for Hillary in the primaries. You have no idea how furious some of them are that she was not included on the ticket. I've heard probably dozens of self-proclaimed Hillary supporters react enthusiastically to the Palin announcement. Of course, I don't think all Hillary voters will vote McCain because of Palin, but I don't think the numbers will be as insignificant as most seem to think. There seems to be a strategic thinking at work on their part- they don't like Obama and wanted Hillary to be prez(and seem to think she was used badly by the Obama campaign). By voting for McCain/Palin, they can see the first woman in the Whitehouse and in 4 more years they get a chance to give Hillary the nomination again.

I, for one, will be very interested in the polls in the coming weeks.

[Devastatin Dave]

Would it be possible for me to get a simulated response from DevDave?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbZJYWjkAPo
Well, he wouldn't want his girls "punished" with one of those parasite things attatcked to their uterus, in fact, I'm sure your messiah would cut that growth right out himself... Bow and worship Lemur, He hath spoken...:beam:

[CountArach]

Nevermind...

[Lemur]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbZJYWjkAPo
Well, he wouldn't want his girls "punished" with one of those parasite things attatcked to their uterus [...]
Hmm, he then also says he doesn't want to see them "punished" with an STD either, so it sure sounds like he's talking about condoms, O devastating one. Abortion doesn't prevent STDs. (I have to tell you these little facts, since you probably only received abstinence education.)

Come on, if Barack Hussein Obama had a seventeen-year-old daughter who was pregnant and unmarried, I know you'd have some zingers to throw out there. It ain't like anything's been off-limits so far, right?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I think you need to realize there are actually women other than Hillary more qualified to be political leaders.Rubbish! :furious3:

Besides, did I ever mention that Hilary bears an uncanny physical resemblance to my mother? My father's short and dark. My mother is the spitting image of Hillary. Go ahead, be as Freudian about it as you dare. ~;)

[Louis VI the Fat]

I've heard probably dozens of self-proclaimed Hillary supporters react enthusiastically to the Palin announcement.


By voting for McCain/Palin, they can see the first woman in the Whitehouse

I, for one, will be very interested in the polls in the coming weeks. I am looking forward to the polls myself. Am very curious to see what female voters of Clinton will do.

I am not a female voter (well, technically, not a voter at all in this election), it may be different for them. I don't necessarily need to see a woman in the White House. Last time that I had the opportunity over here, I didn't vote for the female candidate myself. I must say that I did appreciate the historical significance of Hillary's candidacy.

But the vastly more important consideration was that I approved of her political choices. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I would also support a male Clinton in the White House. ~;)

[Sasaki Kojiro]

When was this?

I meant disco.


When brought to its logical conclusion it is. Thanks, Obama campaign for bringing this up for discussion.

The Obama campaign has pretty much avoided talking too much about palin. Does having her as the vp candidate make any of you more likely to vote for McCain? Her experience level is irrelevant, the poor positions she supports, the lack of judgment in her record and her ethics investigation is what's significant. Along with the fact that in McCain's first real presidential decision he did poorly.


The new obama ad is hilarious:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNzieebcXvM

[Marshal Murat]

Wasn't there some rabid feminist who accused all men of being sexist because they wouldn't vote for Hillary? I am savoring the irony right now. It's the politicians stupid!

[Lemur]

I, for one, will be very interested in the polls in the coming weeks.
Ramussen had a poll yesterday that showed Palin very favorable with the base, bleh with undecideds. Here's a focus group from today (http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/08/focusedthe_sequel.html). Dang it, I can't find that Ramussen data. CountArch, since you're now the resident Poll Smoker, can you help a brutha out?


Another week, another Frank Luntz/AARP focus group of undecided voters--this one in Minneapolis and with some bad news for John McCain: they don't like the choice of Sarah Palin for vice president. Only one person said Palin made him more likely to vote for McCain; about half the 25-member group raised their hands when asked if Palin made them less likely to vote for McCain. They had a negative impression of Palin by a 2-1 margin...a fact that was reinforced when they were given hand-dials and asked to react to Palin's speech at her first appearance with McCain on Friday---the dials remained totally neutral as Palin went through her heart-warming(?) biography, and only blipped upwards when she said she opposed the Bridge to Nowhere--which wasn't quite the truth, as we now know.

Confounded pay-only polling data. The best I can do at the moment is a blog (http://www.bluemassgroup.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=12745) quoting the Ramussen data, which is lame, I know, so don't bother telling me how lame it is:


But among the critical undecideds, the Palin pick made only 6 percent more likely to vote for McCain; and it made 31 percent less likely to vote for him. 49 percent said it would have no impact, and 15 percent remained unsure. More to the point: among undecideds, 59 percent said Palin was unready to be president. Only 6 percent said she was.

[CountArach]

By voting for McCain/Palin, they can see the first woman in the Whitehouse and in 4 more years they get a chance to give Hillary the nomination again.

I, for one, will be very interested in the polls in the coming weeks.
I posted this many pages back, but it got buried:

Women more sceptical of Palin than men (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/08/women-more-skeptical-of-palin-than-men.html)
https://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r44/CountArach/2810618377_1d08f2d3f6_o.png

Women are 1 point less likely to vote for Plain and men are 6 points more likely. These can be explained by the partisan identification, where Democrats are slanted more towards women (Largely because of issues like Abortion) and Republicans have more men. However, what I find more interesting is that Palin looses the "ready to be President" question by 23 points. There is also this one:

"Indeed, among voters already committed to one or the other candidate, her choice would seem to do little bit entrench partisan feelings: just 6 percent of McCain voters say they're less likely to vote for McCain with Palin on the ticket, while just 9 percent of Obama voters say they're more so."

Assuming that the Obama supporters is where Clintonistas comes from, then there probably won't be a great deal of movement.

EDIT: Haha Lemur, that was great timing :laugh4:

[Devastatin Dave]

Just to expand a bit on TuffStuffMcGruff's observation, HERE's (http://embeds.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/09/01/obama-says-palin-pregnancy-off-limits/) the text of his statement on the matter:



Gets high marks from me for that, although, if I'd been him I'd have added: "... - they'd be fired and referred for possible prosecution ." Such a sentence would have nailed down his 100% opposition to the tactic, so he wouldn't sound like GWB a year or so ago with "Scooter-gate".

He stays "clean" as his buddy Biden would say, as his subject do the dirty work for him. Big deal...

[Xiahou]

Ramussen had a poll yesterday that showed Palin very favorable with the base, bleh with undecideds. Here's a focus group from today (http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/08/focusedthe_sequel.html). Dang it, I can't find that Ramussen data. CountArch, since you're now the resident Poll Smoker, can you help a brutha out?Yeah, I heard some of that. But honestly, I don't really think your average person knows her that well at this point, so I think these day-after polls are a bit premature. If these numbers continue, so be it, but I don't buy into them completely just yet.

[Devastatin Dave]

Come on, if Barack Hussein Obama had a seventeen-year-old daughter who was pregnant and unmarried, I know you'd have some zingers to throw out there. It ain't like anything's been off-limits so far, right?

Thanks Lemur...

a Stoning, a stoning!!!

Whew, I feel batter now, time for a, well I quit smoking, what can I do Lemur to occupy my mouth after such satisfaction?:laugh4:

[CountArach]

Yeah, I heard some of that. But honestly, I don't really think your average person knows her that well at this point, so I think these day-after polls are a bit premature. If these numbers continue, so be it, but I don't buy into them completely just yet.
August 29th (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/sarah_palin_unknown_nationally_popular_in_alaska) - 67% of people had no opinion on Sarah Palin (Including 78% of women).
August 30th (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/palin_makes_good_first_impression_is_viewed_more_favorably_than_biden) - 21% of people don't know enough about her.

Isn't the 24 hour newscycle wonderful? :2thumbsup:

[Xiahou]

These can be explained by the partisan identification, where Democrats are slanted more towards women (Largely because of issues like Abortion) and Republicans have more men.While I addressed the polls earlier, I wanted to pull this comment out in specific as I believe it may be inaccurate.


The balance between pro-choice women and women who say abortion should be outlawed or severely restricted is shifting toward the pro-life side, bumping that group into the majority in the debate over reproductive rights, according to a new national poll.

Fifty-one percent of women surveyed by the Center for the Advancement of Women said the government should prohibit abortion or limit it to extreme cases, such as rape, incest, or life-threatening complications.

The findings, with a 3 percent margin of error for the 1,000 women surveyed, tips the scale from the last sampling in 2001, when 45 percent of women sided against making abortion readily available or imposing only mild restrictions. Only 30 percent support making it generally available, down from 34 percent in 2001, the survey found.

The New York-based center that sponsored the survey is a nonpartisan advocacy group for pro-choice women's rights. The center's president, Faye Wattleton, headed the Planned Parenthood Federation of America for 14 years. link (http://www.washtimes.com/news/2003/jul/01/20030701-115636-9509r/).I realize that evidence is dated by a few years, and if the numbers have shifted the other way since then, I'd love to see the polls.

[Lemur]

I quit smoking, what can I do Lemur to occupy my mouth after such satisfaction?:laugh4:
As a fellow ex-smoker, I recommend the chew of kings:


https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Lemurmania/drsoda_2006_165025096.gif

The original flava keeps it real, yo.

[Devastatin Dave]

I would freak because his daughters are like 10 and 13.

No offence or to sound racist, but they are and African American family. I'd be a little surprised but not exactly shock. Teen pregnancy happens at a hire rate in African Americans than any other racial groups in America. He's just keepin' it real.

[Ronin]

I think you need to realize there are actually women other than Hillary more qualified to be political leaders.

It´s true that Hilary had no job running for the presidency....hell...her entire political career is based on the fact that she is married to Bill Clinton, who was Hillary before she become first lady?..nobody.

But to claim that this woman, that was drafted out of Alaska just so that McCain could look modern and progressivism for the feminists, is any better is a joke.

I don´t have problem with women in politics...but they have to pull their weight just like everyone else...what we are seeing here is more than just being given a free ride.

I don´t deny what Palin has done..but to equate that as her being up to the task of being the vice president to a 72 year old cancer survivor is quite frankly pushing it.

This issue just goes to show how far you guys in America are so entrenched in your party lines that you can´t see anything past them.

If the McCain campaign had made public a list of 5 people that they where considering for the vice president slot and Palin was amongst them the same people that are here defending her would be looking up dirt on her and finding reasons why she should be vetoed out....

but since McCain said her name as a done deal those very same people are stuck with here and are here defending her just because they want to stick it to the democrats....

it´s damn ridiculous.

[Devastatin Dave]

As a fellow ex-smoker, I recommend the chew of kings:


https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Lemurmania/drsoda_2006_165025096.gif

The original flava keeps it real, yo.

Did you not hear my toe tapping, big boy?:belly:

[woad&fangs]

No offence or to sound racist, but they are and African American family. I'd be a little surprised but not exactly shock. Teen pregnancy happens at a hire rate in African Americans than any other racial groups in America. He's just keepin' it real.

"Compared to teens from higher income families, poor and low-income teens are somewhat more likely to be sexually active and somewhat less likely to use contraceptives or to use contraception successfully. Poor and low-income adolescents make up 38 percent of all women ages 15 to 19; yet, they account for 73 percent of all pregnancies in that age group"

source (http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/PUBLICATIONS/factsheet/fsprechd.htm)


and if you scroll down this page a bit you'll see a nice graph of median income by race in the midwest.
http://www.ibrc.indiana.edu/ibr/2006/fall/article2.html

In the end people are separated more by class then by race:7teacher:

[CountArach]

While I addressed the polls earlier, I wanted to pull this comment out in specific as I believe it may be inaccurate.

link (http://www.washtimes.com/news/2003/jul/01/20030701-115636-9509r/).I realize that evidence is dated by a few years, and if the numbers have shifted the other way since then, I'd love to see the polls.
Its a bit hard to find polling on single issues that isn't completely biased (I found a NARAL poll, but that was phrased so poorly that there is no way it could be even remotely balanced...). What I did find, however was Gallup's 'Values' poll from 2008 (taken in May). Here (http://www.gallup.com/poll/107458/Abortion-Issue-Laying-Low-2008-Campaign.aspx).

According to Gallup's annual Values and Beliefs survey, updated May 8-11, Americans as a whole are slightly more likely to call themselves "pro-choice" on abortion than "pro-life," 50% to 44%. This is nearly identical to where Americans stood on the issue a year ago, and is similar to the close division seen since 1998. Prior to that (from about 1995 to 1997) Gallup found a stronger pro-choice tilt.

The current poll finds no difference between men and women in the percentages calling themselves pro-choice and pro-life. Americans 55 and older are a bit more "pro-life" than those aged 18 to 34 and 35 to 54. Much greater differences are seen by personal ideology and party affiliation. Three-quarters of liberals and 6 in 10 Democrats call themselves pro-choice, compared with only about 30% of Republicans and conservatives. Independents and moderates fall closer to the Democrats in their views.
It then breaks down women as 50-43 pro-choice.

EDIT: Wow, 1500 posts in the thread.

[Lemur]

Daily Show had a very amusing take (http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=183521) on the whole Palin thing. Worth watching if only to hear Samantha Bee declare herself to be "a proud Vagina-American."

-edit-

To spare Xiahou any unnecessary pain, the "Vagina-American" moment comes at about 3:00.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I thought this (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2f78b52e-7827-11dd-acc3-0000779fd18c,s01=1.html?nclick_check=1) was an interesting take on McCain's foreign policy experience, given his penchant for gambling in vegas.


The world has been moving John McCain’s way over the past year. The success of the “surge” in Iraq has helped his cause. So has the Russian invasion of Georgia. On both issues, the Republican candidate for the presidency took positions that now look prescient and courageous.

More generally, the sense that the world is getting more dangerous helps Republicans in general – and a tough, experienced, military man such as Mr McCain in particular. Why take the risk of electing a neophyte such as Barack Obama, the Democratic candidate?

Opinion polls consistently show that the American public has more faith in Mr McCain as commander-in-chief. He looks like the safe choice for dangerous times.

But this is wrong. Mr McCain will not run a “safe” foreign policy. He adores rolling the dice. His decision to select Governor Sarah Palin of Alaska as his running mate typifies the man. It is a big risk. It could turn out to be inspired. Or it might turn out to be a disaster. But it is not “safe”.

Mr McCain approaches international affairs in the same spirit. His instinct is always to take the radical option and to march towards the sound of gunfire.

It was indeed courageous to back the idea of sending more troops to Iraq, at a time when the war was going so badly. But it was the same instinct to choose the bold, aggressive option that made Mr McCain such an enthusiastic backer of the Iraq war in the first place. Indeed, he was arguing for the invasion of Iraq well before the terror attacks on New York and Washington. That now looks reckless.

The Georgian crisis also looks, at first sight, like a vindication for Mr McCain. He has been a longstanding critic of the Russian government. He saw the crisis in Georgia coming a long time ago.

When I visited Georgia last April I discovered that President Mikheil Saakashvili counted Mr McCain as one of his closest friends and allies. Mr Saakashvili told me (with a laugh) that the South Ossetians – whose rebel enclave he later attacked, with such disastrous consequences – had even shot a missile at a helicopter carrying Cindy McCain, the Senator’s wife. And the Georgian president told me proudly that Mr McCain had given him a gift – a bullet-proof vest.

Even at the time, this struck me as an ambiguous present. Was it saying, I’m behind you all the way; or was it saying, best of luck, I’ll be cheering for you – from a safe distance? Now that Georgia has been so severely mauled by Russia, the dangerous ambiguities in the policies pushed by Mr McCain and the Bush administration are even clearer. The Georgians were flattered, hugged and trained by the Americans. But when the Russian tanks rolled in, there was little the west could do.

Mr McCain says that President Teddy Roosevelt is one of his heroes. But Mr McCain’s proclamation in the aftermath of the Russia’s invasion – that “we are all Georgians now” – was the opposite of Roosevelt’s famous advice to “speak softly and carry a big stick”. It was tough talk, with very little to back it up.

Mr McCain’s failure to spell out the implications of his strong rhetorical support for Georgia may mean that he has failed to think things through – or just that he does not want to alarm voters. But the Republican needs to answer some difficult questions.

Is the US really prepared to fight Russia to protect Georgia and Ukraine – as Mr McCain’s firm support for swift Nato membership for these countries implies? Are we entering a new cold war, as his determination to isolate Russia suggests? If the tough talk is not backed up by tough action, what does that do to American credibility?

Mr McCain’s instinct certainly is to confront Russia – and indeed China. Even before the conflict in Georgia, he was arguing for throwing Russia out of the Group of Eight and forming a new League of Democracies.

Mr McCain’s confrontational instincts are even more to the fore when it comes to Iran. He has said that the only thing worse than a war with Iran would be a nuclear-armed Iran. Taken at face value – and given what we know of Iran’s nuclear programme – that sounds like a commitment to attack Iran within the first term of a McCain presidency.

The Obama camp argue that Mr McCain will simply continue with the policies of President George W. Bush. The comparison is certainly interesting. In some ways, Mr McCain is a more reassuring figure – because he is curious and has thought hard about foreign policy for many years. But in other respects, Mr McCain might make Mr Bush look like a cautious softie. It was Mr McCain, not Mr Bush, who was the favourite of the neo-conservative wing of the Republican party, when the two men ran against each for the Republican nomination in 2000. Mr McCain’s policies on Iran, Russia and China are more hawkish even than those of the Bush administration.

Then there is the matter of temperament. Mr Bush is a sunny and optimistic person. Mr McCain is funnier, darker and angrier. Mr Bush steered clear of Vietnam. Mr McCain really is a warrior, whose autobiography begins “I was born into a tradition of military service” – and whose books are full of brooding reflections on the nature of honour.

In international crises, the character and instincts of the American president are critical. Mr Obama is by temperament a cautious, pragmatic conciliator. Mr McCain is aggressive, unorthodox and radical.

Sometimes, of course, the radical choice is the right one. Mr McCain would be an interesting choice for president. But safe? Forget about it.


It's becoming increasingly clear that palin was not vetted. Obama's line of attack seems to be saying a few nice things and ignoring her while letting the media go after her. Although I did see that he'd said something about how his campaign's monthly budget is three times the yearly budget of wasilla and that it has 2,500 people.

The republican tactic seems to be accusing anyone who criticizes palin of sexism. Mostly they just seem to be getting cut up by the media though:

McCain staffer desperately trying to defend palin's foreign policy experience (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYYiw_y2qDI)

You can see the republican line of defense a few minutes into this one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYYiw_y2qDI)