Monglos and Timurids

[yogol]

Hi, I am playing Egypt on VH/VH and here are some questions...

When the Mongols spawned in northern Russia, they swarmed my citadel in Sarkel and kept on trying to take it. They spend like 40 turns trying to take it, never changing targets.

Eventually they took it, of course (it immediatly rebelled, lol).

Then the Mongols ignored it, ignored my armies around there and went all the way west.

Are their targets always set in stone like this ?

And will it be the same for the Timurids ?

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I have heard that they move near the border of the map just because they are waiting for other stacks to arrive.

And because there are 3 invasions IIRC then they would just sit near in the province where they spawned in the first place.

But FH might know it better..

[FactionHeir]

It has to do the default horde parameters are set up. Quite wonky actually and most of the time they don't work at all.
Feel free to try my mod though where I fixed it (original post on how to fix horde factions was by me in the ORG modding wiki forum ~:))

[TheLastPrivate]

When the city immediately rebels, they didn't take the city. They pillaged it and left it in anarchy.

[phonicsmonkey]

ah, the famous Mongol shuffle...:clown:

[The New Che Guevara]

Playing Russia on easy (NOOOOOOOB), refused to take the easterly provinces 'cos i was aware of the mongols coming,

Eventually, they came to me, as I was defending Chernigov (I think, It's the one below Moscow), seiged me for a turn, and then walked off,

mean while, the heir apparent had sent me a mission for regicide, which I did, and then killed the new faction leader, and then tried killing more, but I've lost where the faction leader is now, on all of the armies, I can't find him.

and they haven't taken a single province yet... losers. I'd take them out, but currently, I'm working with the HRE by declaring war on them, asking for a ceasefire, If they'll give me a province, It's actuslly working quite well... I got frankfurt and prague!

[yogol]

Well, they are dead... Apperently they thought is was a good idea to continue trying and trying and trying to take a useless bridge somewhere, guarded with a bunch of Tabardariyya. they just keep on running up to it, die, get broken and run !

But then came the Timurids and they are simply unstoppable, lol : 3 times 5 full stack with super-elephants are simply unstoppable.

[Eikon the Magistrate]

Is it possible that you can shoo them off by having more troops in the area than they do? Ive had similar exp. when I was defending Antioch I had 5 stacks in the province and they would not engage over the bridge,instead they turned back to Sarkel which they took easily.

A suggestion Yogol for the Timurids is to make small anti-elephant stacks and engage them offensively, no particular need for generals, the point of these small forces is to attack and kill elephants. A Timurid stack minus is elephant escort is not much of a problem.

[yogol]

A suggestion Yogol for the Timurids is to make small anti-elephant stacks and engage them offensively, no particular need for generals, the point of these small forces is to attack and kill elephants.

Hmmm... With javelins ? Gunners ? Cannons ? I'll see how to do that. I never got this far in the game, I always win my long campaigns before these Timurids show up, but this time I turtled, just to see what they are like, hehe.

I've been training those few camel untis that you can hire around Baghdad, but something tells me those 5 units won't kill alot of elephants, even with their golden stripes, hehe.

[TheLastPrivate]

Hmmm... With javelins ? Gunners ? Cannons ? I'll see how to do that. I never got this far in the game, I always win my long campaigns before these Timurids show up, but this time I turtled, just to see what they are like, hehe.

I've been training those few camel untis that you can hire around Baghdad, but something tells me those 5 units won't kill alot of elephants, even with their golden stripes, hehe.


Siege weapons with flaming ammo + javelin cavalry.

The idea is to have a vanguard unit that draws fire, while javelin cavalry take out elephanzers.

P.S. Run-amok elephants do more dmg to them than your loss of stack..

[Old Geezer]

I am having problems getting the Mongols to attack. I have built forts at choke points and river crossings around Antioch and filled them with low grade units. The Mongols have been wandering back and forth for about 50 years and finally attacked one of the forts. They won! Well, they took the fort but lost 3 generals and over 1275 of their best troops and I lost 1203 low level men and 1 mortar. (It looked like a fireworks display over the fort's center as the thousands of flaming Mongol arrows descended upon my vailant Scots.) The next turn I attacked the 350 men that they had left in the fort with no reinforcements because the rest of the horde wandered back over to Edessa to besiege another fort. The Mongols lost all their men and I lost about 150 (I used a culverin and mortar to pound them and had some heavy pike militia with single chevrons, a few feudal knights, and a general.) The Portugese were much more difficult; I had to use top qualtity units to defeat them.

[TheLastPrivate]

It seems well-armored archer/xbow is the key to beating them on even ground, especially with the cavalry nerfs it's very doable.

[Old Geezer]

I have rented as many pavaise xbows but they are all in central Europe and I hope I can get them over to have a field battle against the Mongols before they self destruct. I had the Mongols attack a second fort and they did better; I had 5 or 6 spear militia so my Scots lost 1150 men to the Mongols 800 and one general. Not a bad trade. The Scots lost a little finger, the Mongols lost a big toe. I had 2 mortars which did not seem to be very effective at counterbattery so I switched to firing on the Mongol archers which wasn't noticeable effective. The Mongols have too many archers and can fire all over the inside of the fort. They just rain fire arrows all over my poor mortar crews.

[The New Che Guevara]

Is it possible that if the Mongols are in the right position, the Timurids will fight them?

[Old Geezer]

Why not?

[cassu]

it happend to me :beam:, i played a really slow game with the france and just before i quited the save i checkd the world with toggle_fow and noticed that the mongols had all of turky, holy cities and egypt. the timurids had arrived just a couple turns before and were attacking the mongols :dizzy2:. i think i have the save somewhere stashed

[seireikhaan]

For those who might be unaware; Its actually quite historically accurate for the Timurids and Mongols to engage each other. It was Timurlane who ironically shattered the power of of the Golden Horde, though he never actually got to conquering the Russian steppes. Timurlane and Tokhtamysh, the Khan of the Golden Horde, both rather wanted what's now Azerbaijan, and in the end, Timurlane, as he so often did, came out on top.

[Galain_Ironhide]

yes I have had games where the mongols and Timurids have fought each other. Thats on the lucky occasions when they don't just wander aimlessly around the desert.

[yogol]

yes I have had games where the mongols and Timurids have fought each other. Thats on the lucky occasions when they don't just wander aimlessly around the desert.

The Mongols wandered around aimlessly with me too for a long time, but that stopped more-or-less once the last stacks came on board : after that they just switched targets twice. Their target went from Sarkel (I won three battles against them attacking Sarkel) to Bulgar but they switched targets from Bulgar to Kiev before they ever got to Bulgar. They did conquer Kiev from the Russian tough.

The Timids I don't know : they are wandering back and forth now, but their last stacks haven't come on. I bet it's the same as the Mongols !

[oz_wwjd]

At least you haven't had them get bugged or something cause that's what happened to me:for some reason the mongols never appeared after the accouncement so I assumed that they have attacked russia and began finishing off the egyptians and ventians as the byzantines.Shortly after approx 14 mongol stacks appeared and went straight for Antioch, I was shocked to see that many appear at once,to say the least

[PBI]

There is a gap of a few turns between the "Mongols are coming" announcement and the appearance of the first wave. Also, the first wave is just a single stack which rarely attacks anything, it's not until the three subsequent waves appear that you're in trouble.

[Yaropolk]

For those who might be unaware; Its actually quite historically accurate for the Timurids and Mongols to engage each other. It was Timurlane who ironically shattered the power of of the Golden Horde, though he never actually got to conquering the Russian steppes. Timurlane and Tokhtamysh, the Khan of the Golden Horde, both rather wanted what's now Azerbaijan, and in the end, Timurlane, as he so often did, came out on top.


Not quite...the Golden Horde was a Khanate initially ruled by Batu Khan, Chingis Khan's eldest son in the steppes or Russia.
The Chagatai Khanate was formed in the middle east by Chingis Khan's second son Chagatai.

Ethnic mongols represented a minority of the population in both Khanates. 150 years later, Timur, the leader of the Chagatai Khanate conquered the lands around him including those of the Golden Horde, his distant relatives.

The Golden Horde are as far from Chingis Khan's mongols as the Timurids.

[Emperor of Graal]

A few years after the Mongols and the timurids came i did toggle_fow
To find egypt destroying turkey And the Mongols and the timurids fighting over Baghdad!
When the Mongols took it with all their men the timurids take it back with all their men
Until their army's were near useless
I called a crusade and destroyed the timurids and the Mongols with spear and pike militia!!
Army of the apache!!
:indian_chief::indian_chief::indian_chief::indian_chief::indian_chief::indian_chief::indian_chief:
:indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave:
:indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave:
:indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave:
:indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave::indian_brave:
:indian_chief::indian_chief::indian_chief::indian_chief::indian_chief::indian_chief::indian_chief:

[seireikhaan]

Not quite...the Golden Horde was a Khanate initially ruled by Batu Khan, Chingis Khan's eldest son in the steppes or Russia.
The Chagatai Khanate was formed in the middle east by Chingis Khan's second son Chagatai.

Ethnic mongols represented a minority of the population in both Khanates. 150 years later, Timur, the leader of the Chagatai Khanate conquered the lands around him including those of the Golden Horde, his distant relatives.

The Golden Horde are as far from Chingis Khan's mongols as the Timurids.
Indeed. My reference to Mongols was a slip of tongue that tends to happen when one's played MTW for as long as I have, now M2. Naturally Mongols were a minority, seeing as there were only roughly one million in the entire world at that point, and many of the native populations would have been many times that size, particularly China, which would have been any Khaan's top priority in stabilizing.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

There is a gap of a few turns between the "Mongols are coming" announcement and the appearance of the first wave. Also, the first wave is just a single stack which rarely attacks anything, it's not until the three subsequent waves appear that you're in trouble.

The first wave is not one stack. It is usually between 3 to 5 stacks as are all the other two waves.

@oz_wwjd
The Mongols appear either near Baghdad or near Yerevan or near Sarkel. Those that appear near Baghdad always head to Antioch. Those that appear near Yerevan usually head to Antioch and those that pop up near Sarkel tend to travel to Kiev. If you let them wander in the desert too long the three waves will join and head to wards one of the horde targets Antioch or Kiev. In your case you waited to long and didn't destroy them before the next wave appeared. Three wave combined is a nice challenge :laugh4:

[oz_wwjd]

That many waves all on the field at once,causes my computer to run insanely slow-so I just started again.Seeing I didn't know they had decided to wander aimlessly,well not much I can do about it, I'm not big to taking them on in field battles anyways,I prefer city battles,or river crossings. Also I've seen the mongols ally with the Timurids once and well,both of them at once are a challenge and a half..

[Proserpine]

In my current campaign, as Spain, I lost three Middle Eastern cities to the Mongols :oops:after a successful crusade to Antioch not long before they appeared. I was unable, hwat with war agianst the Egyptians and the Turks to build a solid defensive position in the Middle East.100 years or so later :no:, 4 stacks of Mongols appear in Spain (having apparently come by land through Europe (they definitely didn't come up through Africa) and, after some manouevering, they head for Lisbon :dizzy2: where a Moorish Jihad stack has been hanging about for a bit. Right behind the Mongols, a single Timurid stack appears having followed the same route as the Mongols.

[The story I tell in my head is that my many European enemies allowed passage to the Mongols and Timurids, in hopes they will weaken the growing power of Spain, or at least halt our Eastward expansion. The Moors and Mongols are co-operating in Jihad. The Mongol Khans plot their vengeance on Spain for their temerity in defying Mongol power]

I gather a relief army (1 & a half stacks) from Toledo, Cordoba and Granada and head West, hoping to force a bridge battle. The besieged in Lisbon:wall:, lead by King Herman (the Mad) sally out with 2 bombards. I haver seen to many units of the field. The city is invested closely and the Spanish crossbowmen (until ammo is exhausted) and towers wreak havoc, especially on the Moorish reinforcements who choose to march in front of the walls and in range of the towers and x-bowmen in order to kill the bombards, and then fail to withdraw to safe range, insteading engaging a - very disadvanteous for them - missile duel. In the end, the first battle of Lisbon is a draw, but the besiegers lose 1,300 men out of 2,500 while the defenders lose less than 150.

Eventually the half stack (mainly Jinetes and milita infantry) draws most of the beseigers away, without getting crushed, to somewhere which in real life would be near Badajoz and we have my first field battle against the Mongols. My crossbows (mixed milita x-bows and pavise x-bows) and artillery (1 culverin, 2 bombards and a ballista) destroy 2 stacks before withdrawing in good order after exhausting almost their entire ammo. Not a single spanish rout! Another 1,000+ of the enemy die. 2 Mongol generals are killed. The Moorish jihadi are defeated.:sweatdrop: Wailing and gnashing of teeth in Baghdad and Cairo.

The defenders in Lisbon (now reinforced by the 1/2 stack cavalry army) sally for the second time. The spanish cavalry wipes out 2 weakened stacks (mauled in the battle of Badajoz and 1st Lisbon), then the x-bows kill most of the last stack befre a final charge destroys the Mongol field artillery and wipes out or routs the remaining foot and mounted units. Lisbon is saved! The jihad fails. Hurrah.

But next the Timurid stack beseiges the city. 5 elephant units, including 2 e-artillery. So Herman (the Mad, remember) sallies again and the 3rd battle of Lisbon occurs. A newy recruited ballista manages to sneak out the side door, and fires on the elephants with burning missiles. First one, then another, then all five elephant units rout, causing massive casualties in teir own ranks. The x-bows once again fire from the walls into packed enemy units, causing carnage. Finally, the spanish cavalry issues forths and routs the remaining Timurid units. Soain is saved!

*

Comments: The Mongols and Timurids heading straight for Lisbon, which was a jihad target. However, the King was also located there - would they have gone after the king if he had been elsewhere? I had excellent results using enfilade fire from Artillery in sieges. The Timurids in particular lost all the best units in short order. As has been noted elsewhere, ballistae vs elephants has only one winner if the artillery gets a good shot.

The Moorish Jihad seemed to hang about outside Lisbon for ages without losing any units to desertion. Does the AI get off lightly in this regard?

This series of battles has been the best I have played in SP MTW2. In particular the battle of Badajoz and 1st Lisbon matched some of the epic struggles in MTW, for the first time in MTW2. I loved it! It encouraged me to keep playing MTW2, which I was beginning to think wasn't worth it. It finally justifies the tag "epic".

[Old Geezer]

I found that my Scots pikemen, if you can get them to make contact, will take down Elephants well; much faster than anything else. I am not sure why the Timurid Elephants are so powerful. When I hire one of them as mercenaries their performance is not stellar. I hired one and took it by ship over to fight the Aztecs. What a disappointment. The first two battles the stupid elephants got hosed and even ran amok after being attacked by the Aztec bodyguard. I tried charging with the elephants and after the first charge they would not reform properly and milled around getting cut to pieces. The third battle I just parked them in the rear protected by two units of pikemen and they took no losses, killed about 85 Injuns and didn't even get a promotion. Maybe the Timurids Elephants do better because they have chevrons or because the AI is a much better elephant general than a highlander.

[Proserpine]

A couple of well-aimed flaming balllista bolts to the side will rout 'em double quick. there is nothing like seeing your fellow pachyderms turned into well-done elephant steak to make the grey ones decide this mankind war-thing is not their cup of tea.

[Old Geezer]

The only problem that I have found with using ballista is that it can be difficult to get the ballista in range before the Mongols destroy them. This is especially true if you are attacking the Timurids. If you are defending on a hill it is easier. The AI is normally very competent at handling its elephants. If it could do as well with all of its other units, there would be a lot of whining here about the AI being too god-like.

[Old Geezer]

I can not believe it! A whole day and no one has flamed me for declaring the AI to be competent in some respect! Come on y'all, stop watching the stupid Oldlimpics. Look what happened to the Greeks who started the stupid games.