Removing Armourer's as a build requirement

[Kaidonni]

I know how to remove buildings as a build requirement for units, but I'm just wondering if doing this to the Armourer line of buildings would unbalance the game? I haven't changed the other requirements for units or anything, or increased them, just removed the Armourers. Should that be enough? I'm doing this for the fear that the AI won't be able to build some units due to their requirements, but I also fear them getting too easy access to units. HOWEVER, I don't want to be forever modding, I haven't played a Total War game proper in ages...so, should I just take the plunge and remove the Armourers as pre-requisites, and see what happens? I suppose it could be fun (I'm playing Expert as the Swedish, fortunately the changes show up in my current game - although it is only turn 1, LOL!). But then there are the other buildings, too, such as Inns...I suppose I should leave the Armourers in...

[bondovic]

This certainly is a delicate matter. Getting the AI to field better armies is easy enough - simply remove every bad unit from the game and lower tech reqs and cost to something merely symbolic. Maintaining gameplay while using this strategy, however, is, at least for me, inconcievable.

How to balance it out? TBH I feel that the XL crew has come pretty darn close. Better infrastructure from the start, bumped farm income and tuned AI preferential values combined make for better armies.

Personally, I feel that most units should be obtainable from castle-level. Only some really elite bad boys should need the citadel (which will be worthwhile still, since there's a valour bonus from master level buildings). Thus all guild-level troop producers should be available at castle-level. The fortress should be given something extra, like a farm 100% bonus, aside from the benefit of the military academy. Perhaps also even more money attached to the special fortress-level buildings.

Removing the armourer line? Remove the effetcs of the line, I'd say. But it can serve it's purposes still. Like Muwahids at Spearmaker2 and Saracens at Spearmaker2 + Armourer1. This way you don't have to go to castle to get Saracens but still need a little more effort to go beyond Muwahids.

[caravel]

If you remove the armourer building line from the build prod file, then you need to remove all references to it in the unit prod file as well.

I have found that the best way to deal with armourers is to remove the bonuses they confer, but to keep them as a prerequisite for units. Adding a small income to the "smith" type buildings is also a good idea and it means that a faction gets a return on it's investment. This also compensates from the AI's poor trading.

[Kaidonni]

Hmmm...some factions don't always get units from the Armourer line...is it complicated to limit the availability of specific Armourer levels to certain factions? Or would it simply be best to eliminate the bonuses they confer and leave it at that?

EDIT: I'm gonna eliminate the bonuses and provide a financial incentive. Metalsmiths gone entirely, and the Armourer bonuses will be 75, 150, 300 and 600 florins, respective of level (they cost 400, 600, 800 and 1000 in Tyberius' mod).

EDIT 2: Okay, problem. I have figured HOW to get the game to make Armourer's produce income, but I've used CATHEDRAL_INCOME as the, er, building type. It doesn't output the income I want. I'm beginning to think it's an integer? Or something special?

Here is the entire entry:


3 ARMOURER "Armourer, Armourers Workshop, Armourers Guild, Master Armourer" "NON_PRODUCER, CATHEDRAL_INCOME" " 400, 600, 800, 1000" "2, 4, 6, 8" "{{CASTLE4,BOWYER},{CASTLE4,SPEARMAKER}},{CASTLE7,ARMOURER},{CASTLE10,ARMOURER2},{CASTLE13, ARMOURER3}" "Workshop Level 1, Workshop Level 2, Workshop Level 3, Workshop Level 4" "POVERTY_STRICKEN(155), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(450), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(450), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(450), CATHOLIC_TRADER(450), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(450), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(450), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(450), POPE(450), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(450), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(450), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(450), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(450), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(450), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(450), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST(450), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(450), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(400), REBELS(100), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(0), POVERTY_STRICKEN(7.5), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(225), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(225), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(225), CATHOLIC_TRADER(225), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(225), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(225), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(225), POPE(225), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(225), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(225), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(225), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(225), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(225), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(225), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST(225), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(225), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(275), REBELS(200), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(0), POVERTY_STRICKEN(11.25), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(250), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(250), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(250), CATHOLIC_TRADER(250), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(250), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(250), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(250), POPE(270), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(250), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(250), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(250), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(250), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(250), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(250), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST(250), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(250), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(112.5), REBELS(225), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(0), POVERTY_STRICKEN(16.875), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(337.5), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(337.5), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(337.5), CATHOLIC_TRADER(337.5), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(337.5), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(337.5), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(337.5), POPE(405), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(337.5), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(337.5), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(337.5), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(337.5), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(337.5), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(337.5), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST(337.5), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(337.5), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(168.75), REBELS(337.5), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(0), " "{SWORDSMITH(50),HORSE_BREEDER2(50),ROYAL_COURT(50)},{SWORDSMITH2(75),HORSE_BREEDER3(75),ROYAL_COURT2 (100)},{SWORDSMITH3(100),HORSE_BREEDER3(100),HORSE_BREEDER4(100),ROYAL_COURT3(100)},{HORSE_BREEDER4( 100),SPEARMAKER4(100)}" NO "2,3,4,5" "75, 150, 300, 600"


Also, removing the Metalsmith seems to result in CTDs...I'm figuring I end up doing something wrong there, just deleting the Metalsmith entry in the build_prod.txt. Fortunately, all other changes (that don't result in a crash) show up in my current Swedish campaign. I also figure that, whether there are spaces after the commas in the income line or not, it doesn't seem to make any difference, it doesn't crash the game.

Heh, look at me, I'm actually modding MTW, and I never knew I'd be going that way. At least it works (unlike my attempts in M2TW...:no:).

[bondovic]

EDIT 2: Okay, problem. I have figured HOW to get the game to make Armourer's produce income, but I've used CATHEDRAL_INCOME as the, er, building type. It doesn't output the income I want. I'm beginning to think it's an integer? Or something special?

Here's the deal. I haven't actually changed income on buildings, but it looks kinda straight forward. In the build_prod just modify the value in column 23 to get what you want from your buildings. It does seem, though, that "cathedral income" is the kind of income that doesn't work for generation type buildings such as the armourer line. Or at least that's what I imagine.

Instead I think you should try rolling with the "Lev1_income", the same that is used for mines. I could be wrong, with the Lev1 just working with 2-level-lines. But try it and report back. I'm curios if not anything else. :yes:

[caravel]

it's best not to delete buildings from the build prod, just change the faction association so that no one can build it.

The metalsmith line is useful. I renamed it to the blacksmith and used it as a prerequisite building for peasant class, axe and all cavalry (shoes, bridle and bit etc) units.

Edit: also the income you enter in the build prod is not the income you get, I'm not sure how it's worked out as I haven't modded the game now for quite a long time.

[Kaidonni]

LEV1_INCOME doesn't work at all. It seems I have to have CATHEDRAL_INCOME included, there doesn't seem to be any other building type available for income generating buildings (unless I try the trading post type line, but that might not be a good idea, I suspect it'll act exactly like any trading post). Also, I just had a thought, and am in the process of experimenting. A value of 100 equals 52 florins, and 200 equals 104 florins. It seems that the income values in the build_prod.txt files are percentages, and it is possible that 52 florins equals 100%. 52/100x75 = 39 florins, exactly what I got when I set the income value to 75. :idea2:

EDIT: Just experimented with Byzantines in Early, changing the construction time for the Armourer line. It seems that it works for a generational set of buildings. Armourer=52 florins, Armourer's Workshop=104 florins, Armourer's Guild=208 florins. Gonna just do one more test, changing Fortress construction time too...

EDIT 2: Yep, Master Armourer=416 florins income per turn. Seems that it works fine now. It doubles every year. A value of 800 seems to be equal to 52 florins*8, and so on and so forth.

EDIT 3: Er...how do I ensure no one can build the Metalsmith? Or shall I give that a similar financial bonus, and still allow people to build it? On second thoughts...no, I want to remove it. I try NO_FACTION, but it seems that the Iron Mine is still stated as a pre-requisite to the Metalsmith+, and I was figuring it wouldn't say that if no one could build it...or if I couldn't build it.

[caravel]

LEV1_INCOME is where your mining income comes from, so yes it does work, but it doesn't seem to work in all cases, particulary for buildings that also train units.

There is no "Iron Mine" in MTW unless you've added one in? You need to remove the metalsmith's depedence on Iron and simply change it to "NO_FACTION", that should do it. If you've added an Iron Mine then you also need to remove the Metalsmiths dependence on that.

[Kaidonni]

It's Tyberius' 2.2 plus XL that I'm using at the moment.

Also, I've tried "NO_FACTION", removed any need for Iron Mines (I've limited it to "CASTLE" and relying on it's own upgrades), but it still shows up. Saved game and new campaigns...it refuses to remove them. :no:

I'm gonna edit the game so Metalsmith's are needed for specific units - all Cavalry and all Axe, like you mentioned. Shouldn't be too hard, just need to ensure the Metalsmith is available from the same levels as the Armourer...I don't know, should it be reliant on anything first, like the Armourer? Just concerned that I'm also giving the AI far too much to build...

I'd like to do what you did, renaming it to Blacksmith and all that, but then there's deciding what units need to rely on it, etc, and what level they rely on, and what the line of buildings should rely on...and now, I don't know if I'll be able to get into my campaign unless I mod this in, with all my fussiness and such...it's like opening a Pandora's box...:lam:

EDIT: Been trying to edit in the unit requirements. Each Metalsmith will support the unit requirements from the next level of Castle. So, a Metalsmith will support requirements for both Forts and Keeps, but built at Fort level. Built at Keep level, the workshop will support the Castle units. Built at Castle level, the Guild will support Citadel units. The Master building, built at Citadel level, will support any units from the Fortress. Plus a small financial bonus at all levels. Need to work on renaming, because I'm having does not translate!!! pop up in-game for descriptions, especially of my building...then, how to set the AI to want to build these buildings? Should I incorporate them into the campaign map beginning, what files do I alter there? And so on...it's likely just the renaming and placing them in the campaign that I need help with now.

[bondovic]

Had a thought on this matter of getting income from requirement buildings (possibly every other building as well, like spearmakers, bowyers, swordsmiths and horse breeders). Anyone tried using "Farm_income"? Could be seen as realistic that certain provinces generate more income than others in all respects, not just land fertility. And that farm income could be seen as the sum of average land fertility + population working agriculture? If the population is thought to be a part of base farm value then it's concievable that the concerned province consumes more goods, thus generating more money from smiths, breeders and makers.

If possible one could attatch a very small amount of farm bonus to the buildings. Something in the range of 5,10,15,20. It would add up nicely though, making turtling games a lot different, one being able to create large incomes from a small number of highly teched provinces without having to indulge in extensive trading. If possible, that is.

Or is this simply completely outlandish?

[Kaidonni]

It's not a bad idea at all, but my main concern is that Cegorach reports CTD issues with Pike & Musket, with all the income generating buildings, and I'm worried that any attempt at adding extra income generating abilities here will lead to the same problems.

I'm deciding that the Armourer and Metalsmith lines will be available to factions based on what units they provide. If a faction doesn't get any units AT ALL from the Armourer's Guild or above, for example, they won't be able to build it. I won't apply the same philosophy to Horse Breeders, Spearmakers, and what not, just the Armourer and Metalsmith lines. Also, no income bonus from them (it seems awfully odd that they'd give income but none of the other buildings).

Seems to be the best way to go, more or less. Turns out Scotland, in Early, will only have access to the Metalsmith and up to and including the Armourer's Guild. This will symbolise, in a way, the advancement their buildings provide. Since as higher buildings provide no advancement to them, they have little use for them.

Also, I still need to rename the Metalsmith to the Blacksmith...any tips and advice on that? Plus, should I assign all units with 'AXE' as their weapon type the unit_prod.txt as also requiring the Blacksmith? Some of those units seem awfully un-axe-like, such as Swabian Swordsmen...:laugh4: (and yes, I am aware it's not really to do with the weapon they yield, but the damage it can cause ~;p)

[caravel]

I'm deciding that the Armourer and Metalsmith lines will be available to factions based on what units they provide. If a faction doesn't get any units AT ALL from the Armourer's Guild or above, for example, they won't be able to build it. I won't apply the same philosophy to Horse Breeders, Spearmakers, and what not, just the Armourer and Metalsmith lines. Also, no income bonus from them (it seems awfully odd that they'd give income but none of the other buildings).
Most factions require those buildings for something or other. Also what about the master level valour bonuses, would you do away with those to balance it out? Personally I think they're a nice touch and give some incentive/reward for teching up to that level. All other bonuses excluding morale bonuses do imbalance the game and provincial unit specific valour bonuses confuse the AI.

For the Pocket Mod I worked on a flattened tree model for the smithies. The vanilla tree was something like this:


horsebreeder
horsebreeder2
horsebreeder3
horsebreeder4


Fort
-> speamaker, bowyer

Keep
-> spearmaker2, bowyer2, swordsmith, armourer

Castle
-> spearmaker3, bowyer3, swordsmith2, armourer2

Citadel
-> spearmaker4, bowyer4, swordsmith3, armourer3

Fortress
-> swordsmith4, armourer4





The PoM tree is more like this:


Fort (cheap structure, every single province starts with at least one of these)

Keep
-> spearmaker, bowyer, swordsmith, armourer, horsebreeder, blacksmith*

Castle
-> spearmaker2, bowyer2, swordsmith2, armourer2, horsebreeder2, blacksmith2

Citadel
-> spearmaker3, bowyer3, swordsmith3, armourer3, horsebreeder3, blacksmith3

Fortress
-> spearmaker4, bowyer4, swordsmith4, armourer4, horsebreeder4, blacksmith4

*formerly the metalsmith line

This tree works exactly as you see it, without any extra dependencies such as the swordsmith depending on the spearmaker. None of the buildings produce any kind of armour or attack upgrades. The master level produces the +1 valour bonus to units that depend on it. All buildings also produce a small income using cathedral income.

[Kaidonni]

I've decided that the Metalsmith (still need to rename) will be built at Fort level, and combines with the Horse Breeders for cavalry units. The Metalsmith's Workshop and above are available at the Castle, Citadel and Fortress, respectively. I felt needing the workshop for Royal Knights, etc, and numerous cavalry units at Keep level was a bit much, and decided to keep them relying only on the the first level building there. But the more advanced ones are still needed for the units that require more to be built, like the Feudal Knights. I just figured that I'd end up over-thinking the whole situation. Metalsmith deals with Fort and Keep units, Workshop deals with Castle units, Guild with Citadel units, Master with Fortress. Didn't want to spend forever racking my brain with thinking what the metalsmith requirements for units should be...could get overly complicated fast.

I'll keep the valour bonuses in, and will look into using Cathedral income for all of those buildings. That said, limiting the Armourer and Metalsmiths to the highest any particular faction requires seems awfully silly...unless the income isn't a great deal, so...

[bondovic]

The master level produces the +1 valour bonus to units that depend on it.

So the Kwarazmian cavalry, for example, requires the master h.breeder + master s.maker but gets the valour bonus?

[caravel]

So the Kwarazmian cavalry, for example, requires the master h.breeder + master s.maker but gets the valour bonus?

Nope I should have rephrased that sorry. What I mean is that units that depend on the line gain the valour bonus from the master level building, but any unit that actually depends on a master level building itself does not gain the bonus from it.

[Kaidonni]

I want to try to keep the tech tree in XL Tyberius similar to the original, so I've removed the dependencies of the Armourer and Swordsmith on other buildings, but I haven't changed their placement on the tech tree. It'd mean messing with lots of unit requirements, which I, er, really don't fancy doing...:laugh4:

EDIT: Okies, that part is done. Town Watch...er...okay, will remove that dependency too. The Bowyer, Spearmaker, Swordsmith, Armourer, Metalsmith and Horse Breeder line of buildings also produce income (15 florins, 31, 46, then probably 62 or something).

EDIT 2: Can someone please tell me how to bypass that damned can_not_translate!!! issue? It appears it only happens for the Blacksmith's Workshop and Blacksmith's Guild. I've tried editting DESCRIPTIONS.TXT in Loc\Eng...:no:

Besides, ALL cavalry units now need the Blacksmith...or is that excessive? I think it isn't, really, considering...shoeing of horses and all that...unless I put the Blacksmith to begin from Keep, and all units below are free from Blacksmith requirement? Ooooh...decisions, decisions, decisions...shoot the person who decided not to release MTW back in 2002 like I'm modding it to be! :laugh4:

EDIT 3: I've decided that any AXE units that don't require the Bowyer, Spearmaker or Swordsmith (or any combination) will require the Blacksmith. Urban Militia, Militia Sergeants and Halberdiers for example. Chivalric Foot Knights also fit the bill (before they only needed ROYALCOURT3 and ARMOURER3, according to the unit_prod.txt for XL Tyberius...not many foot units will require the Blacksmith, then. The starpos for early will feature plenty of these Blacksmiths, so no worries there.

EDIT 4: Okay, decided to keep dependencies in. Metalsmith needed for Townwatch line and Horse Breeder line. Townwatch needed for Spearmaker and Bowyer line, either for Armourer line. Spearmaker needed for Swordsmith line. Nice progression, forcing the player to build the Metalsmith to get the other buildings and units. Startpos has been altered for Early so that anywhere with a Townwatch or Horse Breeder at the very least has a Metalsmith. Siege Engineer doesn't need any special pre-requisite (except a Fort ~;p). Just need to get that damned translation error sorted (it includes the description not being translated...).

Are there any guarantees the AI will build the Metalsmith line properly, or at all? I would like the AI to prefer to build it so it doesn't...sit there and do nothing at all. That's my thing.

[Kaidonni]

I need help on the translation error thing. I've tried fixing it, and it doesn't seem to work. For some reason. Otherwise, the entire idea behind this modification is ruined...:help:

[bondovic]

I need help on the translation error thing. I've tried fixing it, and it doesn't seem to work. For some reason. Otherwise, the entire idea behind this modification is ruined...:help:

Couldn't help you with that, sorry. I'm only doing tweaking and balancing, not construction.

Some other thoughts, though:

Why the need for a blacksmith line? If horse units in general require that line can't it just be "imagined" to be an inherent part of any fort, therefore making actually building them a non-matter? For the purposes of adding or, simply, rearranging unit dependancies wouldn't the armourer line alone fulfill that function?

[caravel]

Did you rename the building? IIRC It should only be renamed in "names.txt" and nowhere else. If you've renamed it elsewhere then it won't work.

[Kaidonni]

In my musings when I went to bed last night, I've decided my Blacksmith will act like mines and farms - purely an income building. Might tie it into farm income if possible... Plus I'm going to keep in the dependency of Siege Engineers on the Bowyer (in testing it in -ian mode, it seems the AI loved siege equipment...:inquisitive:).

And thanks for the help. Hopefully it's fixed now (only just got up, want my breakfast, haven't got time to test it immediately). It was one of those things that made no sense at all.

EDIT: Yep, fixed. I'd also tweaked the names in the build_prod, and I'm assuming that I shouldn't have done so. I believe that is a reference to the other files where the name is encompassed in square brackets, and the review panel graphics, etc...now to only allow the rebels to build the Guild and Master Metalsmith (which I haven't bothered renaming, just have a 2 level line for all other factions, the Blacksmith and the Blacksmith's Workshop).