So, how fast CAN you complete a short campaign?

[Breetai]

Crusades completed as Egypt - 8 turns.

BEHOLD!
https://img292.imageshack.us/img292/3617/m2twlm8.jpg



The entire thing was a complete blitzkrieg, complete with very dicey battles where I took out multiple stacks with single stacks of 'junk' units, and abused the crap out of the siege distance trick*.

Any other takers?





*(The trick is as follows. Ever try to attack/besiege a city with a stack of troops, only to find yourself JUST outside the city walls and unable to lay seige or start building equipment? Simply select a single cav unit, click and beseige the city with it, THEN move the rest of your army and merge with the cav unit. Behold - you've managed to essentially squeak out an extra single square of movement in a turn, and can take the city in one more turn instead of 2 more.)

[Askthepizzaguy]

You can bet your bottom dollar I will be trying this myself.

Can you complete Medieval 2 Total War, the Long Campaign in just 9 turns? Myself and one other have accomplished this feat.

[Quintus.JC]

You can bet your bottom dollar I will be trying this myself.

Can you complete Medieval 2 Total War, the Long Campaign in just 9 turns? Myself and one other have accomplished this feat.

The long campaign! seriously that's unbelievable. Did you really do that? :inquisitive:

[_Tristan_]

Yes, he did...

I sure hope it was only bragging... It would mean the AI had some punch...

[Quintus.JC]

Yes, he did...

I sure hope it was only bragging... It would mean the AI had some punch...

Wow! ~:shock: 9 turns... :speechless:

[SirRethcir]

Wow! ~:shock: 9 turns... :speechless:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=85054&page=2

[Quintus.JC]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=85054&page=2

:applause: :applause: :applause: :bow:

[ArtistofWarfare]

You can bet your bottom dollar I will be trying this myself.

Can you complete Medieval 2 Total War, the Long Campaign in just 9 turns? Myself and one other have accomplished this feat.

Obviously, using exploits.

Let's say you start with 5 provinces. You conquered 40 provinces in 9 turns? 4+ provinces per turn starting at turn 1?

I don't quite see how that's even physically possible unless of course, there are some exploits/tricks used.

Just like the OP here. He claims he completed the short campaign in 9 turns, and then explains how he used an exploit and cheated the system to do so. In my opinion, I don't see what's so exciting here.

[Warmaster Horus]

Ever tried the Crusade button, ArtistofWarfare? That's the exploit. Read ATPG's story about his Turks blitz game (where he got 106 provinces, the one advertised in his sig). Well explained.

[ArtistofWarfare]

Playing using exploits would be so utterly boring and pointless to me I would wind up turning the game off in under 5 minutes.

That's why some of us don't do it - It's not playing the game, it's beating the coding with an exploit.

To each their own, but I find it to be a total, total waste of time.

I just can't find these "feats" impressive, when the player cheated the game royally to accomplish them. I mean, I don't see that as a total war feat - I see it as a circumvention feat. It's just...not very interesting to me.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Since the Crusade option is available to both AI and human player then it is not an exploit.
Exploits would be merchants in a fort or the 8+1 trick..

Also.. considering how **** the AI is then even moving your units could be seen as an exploit by some.

[Ethelred Unread]

It's not so much as using the exploits that is amazing in ATPG's campaign, it's that it's done so quickly. As he says, make one mistake and you're screwed.

If you wanted to be hardcore about it , you could try to do it without save/reload.

Try a complete blitz campaign Artist and see how fast you can do it. It's not certainly not "easy" and with only vanilla it's probably the best way to make the game challenging.

[Ferret]

I bet if I used all the exploits I knew I could take over every province, including the new world, on turn one...

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I bet if I used all the exploits I knew I could take over every province, including the new world, on turn one...

Actually you just need the following console commands to do that - create_unit, character_reset, toggle_fow, auto_win

Using those you can take 106+America in turn one..
Now that is an interesting idea :idea2:

[FactionHeir]

Nope. For that you also need move_character :laugh4:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

You are right.. I forgot that move_character is the only way to get to America :juggle2:

Edit: Well.. after I conquer everything in turn 1 then will the game continue? I will have some 80-90 turns to the Mongols I think then. :juggle2:

[Ferret]

Then you can use med manager to change the game date to the turn before the Mongols could first possible arrive, you could theoretically own the whole world and beat the Mongols and Timurids in about 5 turns :laugh4:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Ok.. it took me 4 hours to win the game in 1 turn. :clown:

https://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh311/ibnkhaldun/TW%20games/spain_cheat_victory.jpg

I admire those who can conquer the world or finish campaign without cheats and exploits as fast as ATPG and Breetai have done. So this here is not mockery.

[Carlos Matthews]

4 whole hours lol.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

4 whole hours lol.

I would have done it faster but was distracted a lot :clown:

[Ferret]

AND WE HAVE A NEW BLITZMASTER!!!!! ATPG IS NO MORE, ALL HAIL KING IBN THE BUILDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All your blitz are belong to Ibn :yes:

[Askthepizzaguy]

Someone must be bored.

At least my win was legitimate! :laugh2: Impressive that you'd spend that kind of time on it though.

[decimator22]

His fingers most hurt LOL a lot of typing:laugh4: as copy paste doesn't work:book: in TW games

[Ratwar]

His fingers most hurt LOL a lot of typing:laugh4: as copy paste doesn't work:book: in TW games

Just press the up arrow, and the console automatically retypes your last command. ;)

[SirRethcir]

I bet if I used all the exploits I knew I could take over every province, including the new world, on turn one...With all due respect, but that's not correct.
Exploits are exploits, but using the console has nothing to do with playing the game.

Do you know Speedruns?
That's what these blitzing campaigns are all about. To show what's possible within the ruleset the game gives us.
Speedruns are a very special way to play a game. Noone expect you to play it that way, nor do I play the games in that way - for most of the time. And Speedruns demand planing and some insight in game mechanism.
That said, yes, these people deserve some kind of respect.

So, be kind and excuse my first sentence. :shame:

[uanime5]

Someone should record these speed runs using FRAPS and send them to http://speeddemosarchive.com/ . It'd be fun to show everyone just how fast this game can be completed.

[Askthepizzaguy]

With all due respect, but that's bullshit.
Exploits are exploits, but using the console has nothing to do with playing the game.

Do you know Speedruns?
That's what these blitzing campaigns are all about. To show what's possible within the ruleset the game gives us.
Speedruns are a very special way to play a game. Noone expect you to play it that way, nor do I play the games in that way - for most of the time. And Speedruns demand planing and some insight in game mechanism.
That said, yes, these people deserve some kind of respect.

So, be kind and excuse my first sentence. :shame:

I believe they were just kidding around. Both Elite Ferret and Ibn-Khaldun are my loyal zombie slaves... I mean fans.

They mean you no harm. They just want to tear your flesh from your body with their ravenously cannibalistic fangs... I mean, give you a warm, friendly hug.

:saint:

[SirRethcir]

They mean you no harm.
No problem from my side, but I had (have?) the feeling that they don't know what they are talking about.
By the way, there are 'Smilies' for that purpose. :clown:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Well.. I found out in my '1 turn campaign' that I was able to call a crusade 3 times!!
Looks like if I end the Crusade in the same turn it was called then I am able to call another one again in the same turn.. :inquisitive:

Edit: Why just 3 times? Well.. because I run out of settlements to conquer :laugh:

[Ferret]

With all due respect, but that's :daisy:
Exploits are exploits, but using the console has nothing to do with playing the game.

Do you know Speedruns?
That's what these blitzing campaigns are all about. To show what's possible within the ruleset the game gives us.
Speedruns are a very special way to play a game. Noone expect you to play it that way, nor do I play the games in that way - for most of the time. And Speedruns demand planing and some insight in game mechanism.
That said, yes, these people deserve some kind of respect.

So, be kind and excuse my first sentence. :shame:

:brood:

Guess there's no point in replying to a post that breaks forum rules....

But yeah you should feel shame, I was joking and judging from the fact that everyone else knew that was clear, which means you don't have any reason to swear at me...

[Thermal]

blitzing against computer isnt even fun, its actually agonizingly boring unless against human

[SirRethcir]

Guess there's no point in replying to a post that breaks forum rules....

But yeah you should feel shame, I was joking and judging from the fact that everyone else knew that was clear, which means you don't have any reason to swear at me...
Ah, well, perhaps I was just joking too. :dizzy2:

[ArtistofWarfare]

blitzing against computer isnt even fun, its actually agonizingly boring unless against human

It's not fun after you've played 3,200 campaigns and know every single mechanic in the game.

It's not fun when you reload save games to "retry" battles and events.

That's why I just find these huge threads on blitzing to be boring at this point. It's exactly like someone else mentioned: It's like playing Madden football against the computer for 3 years straight and being able to win 88-0 every single game - and when you don't, you replay that game until you do. After you've attained the results you want, you come on the forums and say "omgz I just beat teh computers again!".

What do you want...a cookie? Download a mod.

I'd be personally shocked if someone with literally hundreds or thousands of hours of game time couldn't just steamroll the AI all across the map. It's to be expected after you've played to the point that the keys on your keyboard have holes burned through them.

[Askthepizzaguy]

LOLZ at ArtistofWarfare


I've downloaded plenty of mods, and they are all too easy. As mentioned in other threads, that's why I've designed the Askthepizzaguy_Mod, to give myself and other blitzers and anyone else whose spent a thousand hours on this game a chance to have a challenge.

Otherwise it's hotseats against other human players and that takes a long time.:laugh2:

[FactionHeir]

And you have yet to try mine. I'd want to see how fast you can blitz that :laugh4:

That said, please allow each other's opinions. There is no need to bash each other in over them. If you want to do that, there's the backroom.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I just downloaded your mod, in fact.

If it works as well as you say, then perhaps I could combine elements of the Askthepizzaguy_Mod in order to bring the Horde in quicker. Mmm... Horde...

I will give your mod a fair shake, at least 24 hours worth of gameplay with a few factions before giving you my opinion.

:bow:

:focus:

[ArtistofWarfare]

LOLZ at ArtistofWarfare


I've downloaded plenty of mods, and they are all too easy. As mentioned in other threads, that's why I've designed the Askthepizzaguy_Mod, to give myself and other blitzers and anyone else whose spent a thousand hours on this game a chance to have a challenge.

Otherwise it's hotseats against other human players and that takes a long time.:laugh2:

Again - Once you've played the game for THOUSANDS of hours - there's not going to be any challenge.

This game, any game.

There's not much that can be done about that. I don't think the developers could have ever been prepared for your dedication and level of expertise ATPG. I mean, you've just totally overwhelmed them with your brain power to beat their worthless AI. They've definitely met their match.

Let me forewarn you: When Empire comes out, it will be relatively challenging to even you for the first ...I dunno, 850 hours or so. Beyond that point, you'll probably start to get better at the game (hopefully) and find the AI to be less of a challenge. When this happens, realize it's the same AI that you're playing against, you've just played the game for more time than Michael Jackson has spent with children and gotten pretty good at it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Before your posts get you some warning points, I would ask you to chill out. You're sounding kind of bitter, and I have no idea why you would feel that way. Have I offended you in some way?

I even complimented you on your signature logo. What's the deal?

[ArtistofWarfare]

The deal is well explained in the posts.

I never mentioned "warning points" in regard to your posts though. Please, try to remain mature here.

"LOLZ" "I NEEEEED TO ZERRRG it shakes my CORE!!!" is completely off topic and borderline trolling to me - yet again, fact remains I've never mentioned anything about a warning point. Seems silly and childish to me.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I defer to the forum rules here about flame posting and personal attacks. I'd appreciate it if you would do the same. This is my final word on this matter; for anything further you may private message me, and be civil when doing so.

:focus:

[ArtistofWarfare]

I find that rather rude - to respond to someone indirectly by citing "forum rules".

I repeat - I have done absolutely no such citation when corresponding with you.

You're a man right? So am I - Let's act like it. We can govern ourselves here.

Let the forum moderators do their jobs - I don't think they've displayed any evidence that they're incapable of doing so , and I'm actually offended at such an implication. I think members like FactionHeir keep things quite orderly around here for the most part.

I'll spare you the "back on topic" sign because I don't really think it's my job to dictate that since I'm not a forum moderator. Correct me if I'm wrong: But neither are you.

[SirRethcir]

It's not fun after you've played 3,200 campaigns and know every single mechanic in the game.

It's not fun when you reload save games to "retry" battles and events.Let me correct you on something. I don't know what others do, so I'm talking just for my part.

As you can read in the thread I linked, I wrote:

Well to be frankly, that was my first time I saw the victory movie.
And yes I also thought there is enough 'room' for 19 or 18 turns, but that I guess would be more work than fun. I just thought, well, it's a good reason to play through a campaign and see the end movie.
I finished an English short campaign and played a grand HRR campaign. But never came past turn 50. Since then I played just for research. -> trading mechanism and so on
As you can see I played two campaigns before I tried a blitzing campaign. Not because I'm eager to blitz or be a blitz maniac, or something, but to break the boredom of the game (this is just my opinion, so no offends). That trial was a 20 turn victory. And after that I can guarantee I had not played the game much before I eventually tried a 10 turn victory which became a 9 turn victory.

As you can see, it is not necessary to be a 1,000 campaigns maniac.
Blitzing is just an other way to play that game. As is turtleing or play with some other house rules. Some play that way, others play the other way, and I think, most try different ways and have fun with all of them.

Concerning reloading:
Well, the two reasons you named for reloading carry no weight in my case.
First, I try to autocalculate every battle to save time. If I lose that battle then I reload and solve it by hand. Second, if I have forgotten to move an army or the user interface wrecks a move then I reload. Both occasion to reload are vital for the blitzing game style, or one can dump hours of gameplay for no good.

Conclusion:
Blitzing is a way to play. It's fun for some or an task to fulfill for others. It can be a competition or even a kind of a scientific endeavour - "What's possible?".

You find it boring? Hm, have you tried it? I, myself, found it rather exciting, because every move had to be carefully thought of. I had no detailed grand plan, so I made it up by the way. So it was fun, but sometimes work too. ;)

Don't be so bitter as Askthepizzaguy presumes, have fun and ignore the blitzing threads. :2thumbsup:


PS: If I have overlook a ingenious joke once again, I apologise. :laugh4:
PPS: It is possible to finish a HRE campaign in 8 turns, so have a try.

[pevergreen]

Just dropping in to say that:

1) ATPG is staying within the rules, he is being the nice ATPG. (Come back to LotR!)
2) I find blitzing boring, but maybe thats because I love the idea of having a single army of the best units, and having all my towns and cities fully upgraded. Before I attack.
3) AoW, I have received warning points in this sub-forum for much less than what you are doing. Taking a neutral look at it, you are expressing your opinion, but also degrading everyone who doesnt agree. The tone is getting a bit too personal. Play the ball, not the person/Attack the point, not the player. I really don't want to have to make sapi get off his butt and actually come in here, he has exams to study for people! (He lives across town and is the same age as me. That's presuming he is still a mod in here :laugh4:)

[Martok]

Easy does it, gentlemen. While there haven't been any personal attacks -- yet -- a couple posts in this thread are definitely skating right along the knife edge. Dial it back please.


I'm sure few people will be surprised when I say that blitzing has never been my style, as I've always been a turtler at heart. ~;p That being said, however, I agree when ATPG and others state that blitzing is simply a different way to play. While it is easier in a manner of speaking, there's also definitely a great challenge in pulling off a blitz campaign, as a good deal of both careful planning *and* clever improvisation is necessary to succeed. While it's not my cup of tea, I can certainly understand the appeal -- as SirRethcir pointed out, it's the challenge and excitement of finding out "what's possible". :yes:

[Askthepizzaguy]

Unfortunately I don't have the screenshots because they were on my previous hard drive, the one that overheated...

Due to my hellish blitzery! ZERRRGGG!!!! :clown:

:laugh4:

But doing the Turkish blitz, I had to take Trebizonid with only 1 unit of horse archers, and no other units. Reason: I was flat broke and this was all I could afford to send in that direction given the time frame, and given how far behind the front lines this straggler province was.

So the AI sallied of course. And they had a unit of light cavalry, 3 battalions of spearmen, and a unit of peasant archers. The light cavalry was fast enough to keep up with me and I eventually ran out of arrows. The battle, although small, was epic in difficulty.

I highly encourage anyone to start a Turkish campaign, and send one unit of Turkish horse archers (the cheap kind) to beseige Trebizonid, and win the battle and claim the city outright.

If anyone would like a hint as to how to win, go ahead and private message me. You seriously might find this one a challenge, given you are equal in cavalry strength, vastly outnumbered by spears, and you have archers after you as well.

This is not like the "2 Horsemen" battle replay I posted, where I had to defeat 20 units of dismounted knights, crossbowmen, spearmen, and other assorted hellish armoured goons with two units of light cavalry, then claim the city for myself. This time I had enemy cavalry and that makes it all but impossible.

There is a way... try it out and get back to me. Or post your successful results.

This pertains to the topic because it involves tactics for completing a short campaign quickly, defeating garrisons with fewer troops.

______________

Hint: You can't claim the city center because the other unit of cavalry will relieve the 3 minute warning well before it expires.





Finally, if I may be so bold as to add; "Me pizza man, me like blitzing."

[Thermal]

LOLZ at ArtistofWarfare


I've downloaded plenty of mods, and they are all too easy. As mentioned in other threads, that's why I've designed the Askthepizzaguy_Mod, to give myself and other blitzers and anyone else whose spent a thousand hours on this game a chance to have a challenge.

Otherwise it's hotseats against other human players and that takes a long time.:laugh2:

all to easy, how about deus lo vult?
also if its to easy for you simple editing can balance things or unbalance, and then you can go more techical, im sure your a capable modder

[Ferret]

Deus Vult is still easy, just takes twice as long because of the midget movement points. M2 doesn't have the capabilities to be a hard game, even if you give the AI limitless resources and hige armies it's too stupid to use them...

And this thread has some bad trolls in it, how is warning someone that they may have broken forum rules immature? :dizzy2:

[pevergreen]

p.s.- This post has been copied. If it magically disappears again, it will come right back up. I guess we'll just play a little game here.

I LOVE this game. I call it "Who wants to bet how long it is before AoW is given even more warnings?"

Sorry FH/sapi

[Askthepizzaguy]

all to easy, how about deus lo vult?
also if its to easy for you simple editing can balance things or unbalance, and then you can go more techical, im sure your a capable modder

Actually I have no idea how to mod the game. None whatsoever. I'm more of an "idea" man!

:idea:




Deus Vult is still easy, just takes twice as long because of the midget movement points. M2 doesn't have the capabilities to be a hard game, even if you give the AI limitless resources and hige armies it's too stupid to use them...

And this thread has some bad trolls in it, how is warning someone that they may have broken forum rules immature? :dizzy2:

I disagree. I think the game can be made more difficult. What the computer needs is a more aggressive personality (when at war), a better use of agents like spies and assassins and priests, a money boost relative to the difficulty level, and a preference for building more balanced armies and massing a large amount of troops before sending them off to war. It should also prefer to land on defensible map squares like river crossings, forests, and mountains.

I think the battle AI, when coupled with enough troops, is formidable enough to present a fun challenge. It will never be at the level of a human player, but it's adequate for this purpose. The only thing that needs work is the passivity in certain situations.


3rd time I have to post this. FactionHeir keeps deleting it- which is totally unfair. It violates nothing and responds to this post that I'm quoting.

If his last line isn't in violation of off topic, neither is this:

This post disappeared for some reason. Guess I have to post it again. It certainly violates no forum rules and if it disappears again, I'm going to have to find out who is doing it.

I'm not a police officer. If I'm driving my car tomorrow afternoon and see someone speeding, following them and flagging them down to tell them that "what you're doing is illegal!!!" would be pretty immature, yeah.

"Grow up" or "Mind your own business" would certainly suffice.

For the record, when you spam/trolled my personal message page, I didn't report you - I just deleted it. See how simple and easy?

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black though.

p.s.- This post has been copied. If it magically disappears again, it will come right back up. I guess we'll just play a little game here.

:focus:


I LOVE this game. I call it "Who wants to bet how long it is before AoW is given even more warnings?"

Sorry FH/sapi

You know those mythical creatures that you're not supposed to feed?

[El Diablo]

Okay just a quick few points of clarification for one and all.

If there are two ways to take the way someone has written a post and one of them is bad. In the .Org it is usually a safe bet to assume it was the other way..:yes:

Elite Ferret is to be never taken seriously at all. We all know that he is the greatest blitzmaster with all provinces conquered on turn one with the Spanish. We know and accept this as I also know that ATPG was smiling and laughing out loud that anyone would do something so funny silly.
I have my clown watching you EF and he never sleeps (apart from when he is tired) :clown:.

ATPG posting style is never to be taken serious either. His claims of blitzmaster this and god of death that are nothing more than the persona he has taken on whilst on the .Org. Also his constant offers to gut and disembowel your children and your childrens children are just his style. It may appear rude and blunt but it is hard to get his type of sarcasm and humour across over written word. I have found him to be a very polite, curtious and helpful member here who is also a very skilled multiplayer player and his skill at the blitz is unquestioned. If blitzing is not your cup of tea - cool. No need to comment or berate, just think "to each their own".

Particularly when in a thread that is about blitzing. (Other) people want to know what is possible and go "wow". You may not want to so don't open the thread or even just don't post.

ATPG finds turtling boring - he still comments in these threads and possitively as well.

AoW please keep it civil here. Don't reply to this with examples of how you have been wronged. Just think "clean sheet" start again and be nice. I am not picking on you and I am also not a moderator, but I am a nice guy here and have always tried to be nice even if I don't agree with the post. Positive comments are welcome. CONSTRUCTIVE criticism can also help. But hey - just word it nicely. Not too much to ask really.

Now eveyone kiss and make up and back to "kingdom of love and peace".

[mousestalker]

I think the major change that needs to be addressed in any mod is the tendency of the AI to start wars with inadequate forces. I do not object to betrayal in game. I expect it. I object to stupid betrayal. My very first game I was playing England and had just conquered the British Isles. I had an iron alliance with France (double wedding) who was at war with Milan and Spain. Portugal was at war with the Moors. Neither Portugal nor France were allied with each other. On the same turn Portugal lands its entire frickin army next to Caernarvon and France attacks Rennes (one of my cities) with two peasants.

Five truns later there is no Portugal (the Moors took Lisbon, the Spanish took Pamplona and I had a massive stack of rebels on my turf) and three turns after that France is out of business. I blew handling the Pope, which cost me dearly at the time, but still, the AI just played stupidly. If you want a genuinely challenging mod, just have most, if not all, of the factions allied to each other against the human player.

I actually agree with the rest of ATPG's ideas (more cash, balanced armies etc)

[Askthepizzaguy]

Another neat idea would be to program the campaign AI's to sometimes agree to secretly conspire to destroy a faction.

Imagine France and the HRE are allied, and England is at war with Scotland. France and the HRE both engage in troop buildups, and then sail to England and attempt to destroy them.

It would require programming something like:
a chance_of_conspiracy value,
a troop_buildup mode,
an assault_enemy_settlement_at_coordinates mode,
an aggression_versus_faction mode.

Basically 4 little bundles of code dedicated to generating random plotted attacks, generating invasion armies, targeting the enemy capital or main recruitment center and invading until that settlement is taken, and an aggressive persuit of warfare against the rest of their entire faction after the first assault is successful.

There can be modifiers, such that factions with atrocious reputations will not gain co-conspirators except for very rare instances, and ones where those with good reputations will be more likely to gain co-conspirators, especially if war was declared on one of the allies involved, or if the intended target has deplorable reputation.

You'd really have to know a lot about program design to modify the game this way, though, and it's likely to cause bugs or game breaks, I'd suspect.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Elite Ferret is to be never taken seriously at all. We all know that he is the greatest blitzmaster with all provinces conquered on turn one with the Spanish. We know and accept this as I also know that ATPG was smiling and laughing out loud that anyone would do something so funny silly.
I have my clown watching you EF and he never sleeps (apart from when he is tired):clown:

It was ME who conquered the world in one turn as Spain.. not EF! :brood:

[El Diablo]

Of course it was. My mistake :shame:.

Appologies.

Hail Ibn-Khaldun Blitzmaster.

Some times I wish I could read properly.

ED

[Askthepizzaguy]

I believe Ibn-Khaldun's "feat" is a category all its own.

I dub thee "Cheatmaster", Lord of Console Victories!

:bow: :charge:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Oh.. Thank you ATPG! :clown:

Cheatmaster is a nice title I have to say :laugh4: