Linguistic Question About Getai

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Is it OK for the team to reveal where they took some of the Getai names from? I'm curious on some, mainly the name "mezenai" for horsemen. For what I know it doesn't seem to have a cognate in any other IE language, even though Dacian was supposed to be one.

Example: we have Equus in latin (p turns into q as in *penk --->quinque), cognate with Hippos (Greek) and Epos (Gaulish), but I personally can't find a parallel between them and mezenai. That said the language isn't closely related, but the root for it must still have been different then. Even in English you have something like "Horse" which can be defined as a (quite remote) cognate with these. Do we actually know the Thraco-Getic word for "horse"?

A minor but intriguing question nevertheless.

[blitzkrieg80]

i have no idea what the basis in EB is, but I remember seeing that word concerning a Thracian inscription:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language


Only four Thracian inscriptions have been found. One is a gold ring found in 1912 in the town of Ezerovo, Bulgaria. The ring was dated to the 5th century BC. On the ring is an inscription written in a Greek script which says:

ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕΑΣΝ / ΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛ / ΤΕΑΝΗΣΚΟΑ / ΡΑΖΕΑΔΟΜ / ΕΑΝΤΙΛΕΖΥ / ΠΤΑΜΙΗΕ / ΡΑΖ / ΗΛΤΑ
rolisteneasn/ereneatil/teanēskoa/razeadom/eantilezu/ptamiēe/raz/ēlta

The meaning of the inscription is not known, and it bears no resemblance to any known language. Thracologists such as Vladimir I. Georgiev and Dechev have proposed various translations for the inscription but these are just guesses.

A second inscription was found in 1965 near the village of Kyolmen, Preslav district, dating to the 6th century BC. It consists of 56 letters of the Greek alphabet, probably a tomb stele inscription similar to the Phrygian ones:

ΕΒΑΡ. ΖΕΣΑΣΝ ΗΝΕΤΕΣΑ ΙΓΕΚ.Α / ΝΒΛΑΒΑΗΕΓΝ / ΝΥΑΣΝΛΕΤΕΔΝΥΕΔΝΕΙΝΔΑΚΑΤΡ.Σ
ebar. zesasn ēnetesa igek. a / nblabaēgn / nuasnletednuedneindakatr.s

A third inscription is again on a ring, found in Duvanli, Plovdiv district, next to the left hand of a skeleton. It dates to the 5th century BC. The ring has the image of a horseman with the inscription surrounding the image. It is only partly legible (16 out of the initial 21)

ΗΖΙΗ ..... ΔΕΛΕ / ΜΕΖΗΝΑΙ
ēziē ..... dele / mezēnai

ΜΕΖΗΝΑΙ likely corresponds to Menzana, the Messapian "horse deity" to which horses were sacrificed, compared also to Albanian mëz, mâz "poney" (borrowed into Romanian as mânz "colt"), derived either from PIE *mongw(i)- "virile" or PIE *mend(i)- "to suckle".

I hate to use Wikipedia as an authority, because it IS NOT. Yet, I have not personally researched the basis for this... I do study Thracians and IE as a hobby though... no time to study this one for you, sorry ~:(

[edit]

oh yeah, this site isn't shabby:
http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/thrac/thrac_6.html


3. The inscription on the golden ring from Duvanli

This ring was found next to the left hand of a skeleton in the Arabadzhjiska mould at the village of Duvanli, Plovdiv district. The ring has the image of a horseman and an inscription surrounding the image:

http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/thrac/DUVANLI.jpg

The golden ring from Duvanli

The inscription is only partially preserved – only 16 out of the initial 21 letters are readable:

The text of the Duvanli inscription (on the golden ring)

The interpretation of Vl. Georgiev is the following:

Text: eys, ie … dele, mezenai.
Translation: “(You) powerful, help … protect, (you) horseman!”

The image of the horseman clarifies the word mezena as meaning ‘a horseman’. The Thracian mezena (mezenai in the text) is almost identical to the name (the epithet) of the Messapian deity of (Iuppiter) Menzana, the “horse deity” to which were sacrificed horses. It also corresponds to the Albanian mes, mezi (‘a stallion’) and the Romainan mnz (‘a stallion’). The latter is Dacian in origin from the IE *mend(i)- ‘a horse’. The Thracian mezena and the Messapian Menzana – from the IE *mendiana mean ‘a horseman’.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Very interesting! For what I know it seems Dacian was an IE Satem language. I found a list of cognates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language) here in Wikipedia and it appears "mezenai" is not related to any other IE word known... maybe a loan from pre-IE extinct substrata? Still, though, the wikipedia link fails to attest any particular meaning to the word.

I'm starting to think that attributing the word for "horsemen" was a bit hasty... Based on our knowledge and the intriguing lack of cognates (IIRC) it could be simply a guess based on the figure, but then it might be as well that the "true" word was lost as much as it is really "mezenai". Anyway I will not further touch the issue since I'm not specialized in the Ancient Getics to step the ground confidently. Thanks!

Edit -Yeah, wikipedia is rather a bad source but better than none anyways.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Just saw your second source, it appears "mezenai" has a solid source and a PIE root that can be identified. Well it solved the mystery for me ;).

If you could recommend any books on the Thracians, I would be thankful. I'm seeking a field to delve deeply since I'm not really into Ancient History and they appear interesting enough for a start.

[blitzkrieg80]

maybe a loan from pre-IE extinct substratavery possible - interesting line of thought...


maybe not immediately obvious is the basis for their assumption which is that the expected outcome of palatalization (Satem):

*mend > *menz

[the only reason I think of it immediately (strange thought) is because i had to research it to reconstruct Pre-Balto-Slavic ~:)]

possibly *man+d (derivational suffix; also can be past participle)
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/piet&text_number=2177&root=config

FYI - the various *m(A)nd are stemming from IE ablaut gradation, which you might already know

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/piet&text_number=+732&root=config

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/piet&text_number=+734&root=config > http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/pokorny&text_number=1219&root=config
<=> http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/PokornyMaster-X.html


[edit] sorry i didn't see your other post, but i still wanted to share (i guess i made time, hehe)

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

[maybe not immediately obvious is the basis for their assumption which is that the expected outcome of palatalization (Satem): *mend > menz [the only reason I think of it is because i had to research it to reconstruct Pre-Balto-Slavic ]

Ah, yes, that was a good one. Balto-Slavic was still a cohese group, if we are talking about so long in the past. The wonders of language reconstruction! Just today I was reading about the Schützen-Shooter-Scythian-Saka parallel ;).

Anyhow, that remembers me about another minor detail about the town of Gelonus. It should have wooden walls from the start, IIRC, based on a passage from Herodotus and (maybe) some archaeological excavations, that's it. Though the ethnicity of the inhabitants is disputed, I think they were some sort of proto-Balto-Slavic.

EDIT - Found a source ;):

http://www.customessaymeister.com/customessays/Archaeology/8139.htm



ween nomads and Scythian pastoralist communities. He describes a people he calls the Geloni who were descendants of Greek colonists and native who lived around the city. He also describes the city, Gelonus which they built of wood. Some ate what they grew and other produced for the Greek wheat market. Archaeology in recent yeas has uncovered networks of town sites along the middle Dnepr River. These sites include settlements enclosed and fortified with outside cemeteries and industrial works such as granaries, potteries, and smithies for ironworks. The site of Belsk has ramparts which are 21 miles in circumference and is quite possibly the Gelonus of Herodotus. At the site there was a workshop making the type of human skull drinking cups which Herodotus details. (Ascherson 77)

The web isn't the best place but it seems the archaelogical site properly found vestiges of fortifications. I will try doing something less shallow later, maybe.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

And thanks again for the PIE sources :). I will investigate the lexicon particularly, it might help me with my (amateurish) linguistic analysis. The insight on the *mand root was particularly interesting: given the fact that the Getai spoke a Satem language one might postulate they were a later migration? I don't have the dates for the complete Centum-Satem divergence, but it seems that as far as the date of Tocharian divergence the Satem changes still did not spread to its fullness as in the EB timeframe.

[blitzkrieg80]

also some Eastern European IE dialects have palatalization that is thought to be a direct influence of Indo-Iranian innovation and transmission, rather than natural Satemization, so something to keep in mind. as a fellow amateur linguist, I am glad to share some stuff, you're welcome :bow:

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Hmm, great :2thumbsup:. I really wish we could know more about the Thracians. Given the fact that languages are still disappearing at a fast rate it is greatly disappointing to see we know but little of them and many others. It's exactly the mystery that attracts me :book:, if it weren't for a few unfortunate events that lead to the vanishing of our possible sources (including Ovid) we could have been hearing a Getic voicemod now. But unfortunately, it's all merely conjecture :(.