View Full Version : BtSH The Curia
navarro951
01-18-2009, 22:13
"For now, no other title is necessary, to us he is now Heres Cicero or Consul Cicero."
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
01-18-2009, 22:18
Tribunus Tiberius Claudius Marcellus enters the Curia having just come from the Pomoerium, the somber mood of the legislative body echoing that of the people on the streets of Roma. What is there to be said when someone of such import dies? Quietly, he retires to his favorite alcove in the library off to the side of the Curia and absent-mindedly examines a parchment.
Deciumus Cornelius Scipio stands up
The former dictator was a wise and efficent leader. One for all romans to look up too and strive to emulate. He led our glorious nation in retaking the land from the barbaric Epirotes, to crushing the rebellious slaves at Rheggon, then making the barbarians north afraid of Roman might once more. His leadership will be missed, hopefully we can take his initiative and use it wisely in making Rome even stronger!
The Celtic Viking
01-18-2009, 22:33
Pvblivs stands up with a jerk.
"Cicero? Cicero?! With all due respect, Blasio, is this a joke? Not too long ago he was just a minor officer in my Legion, and now he's the heir? He may be your son by adoption, and a good man as I know from my own experience, but he's hardly qualified for the position. He's still just a tribunus..."
Pvblivs shakes his head.
"I wish to let it be known that I strongly disagree with this decision. With no offence meant towards Cicero, I think that this position is just too important and require qualifications that Cicero cannot meet up to."
navarro951
01-18-2009, 22:59
"Very well Pvblivs, I am grateful for your opinion as i did ask for it."
(OOC: I must OOC this. Well I looked at it like this, Roka (Scipio) is about to be placed on the inactive list, and Baen (Cotta) is very young...and he seems to be okay with the choice. If you would like, we can vote on it without an emergency session. Just a simple 2 option poll for Cotta or Cicero. Idk, but my options here are very limited.)
I 2nd Publius. He is too unqualified. Even the Casse, a little known tribe, is recieving much notoriety for its stupid prince. Prince Henry I believe, every trade season gallic merchants come down telling of his stupidity and dumb remarks, making the casse monarch look foolish.
(little bit OOC, but I thought it would be funny).
I think a elder statesmen, would be fine. Not Cotta or Cicero, but someone with experiance at head of state to take the title for the time being. Maybe a elder governor. If noone is available I will concede and support your decision for cicero to be heres.
(OOC: maybe we can get rid of the office of faction leader/heres completely? Make it so we dont even recongize it, and its just a useless ingame thing. We are roleplaying here after all, and romans despised monarchys.)
everyone
01-19-2009, 08:02
Cicero walks into the Curia, composed. After a momentary absence from mourning, travelling, paperwork and miscellaneous tasks.
"Noble Dictator, I am humbled and grateful that you have announced me as your heir, but like a few senatores, I do not think I have the reputation to show that I deserve the rank. Though you have already bestowed it on me, I shall fulfill my tasks nevertheless. I think if Consul Asina were still alive, he would have been made heres and all would accept him, but I am not him, however I can prove that I can live up to the title. I have aided Consul Asina in his duties as a Consul before, I shall use what I have learned to complete my new tasks."
Cicero bows and addresses the rest of the Curia
"if you may excuse me, I have some tasks to finish, as appointed by the dictator"
SwissBarbar
01-19-2009, 08:22
When Cicero turns to go out the Curia, Avlvs rises
Well spoken, Cicero. A philosopher would say, self-awareness is the path to wisdom.
Also I go now, to join the Legion. Senator Lvcvllvs (OOC: no player, my representative) will represent me in the curia, till I return.
Avlvs lifts his hand to salute in the old roman fashion.
Extract from a letter, addressed to the Senate from Legatus Cotta.
...of dire attention. Our contact in Patavium was discovered recently; he escaped with his life, however, which is how I come across the information-personally from our man. He brings terrible news from the city. The enemy king has heard of our intentions, and has readied his forces for war. The supplies are being brought in, the men are being drawn in from around the kingdom. His forces are centering on protecting their capital of Patavium. It is with an increased sense of urgency that I order our forces to move at twice the pace, lest the enemy have too much time to prepare. However, I am still confident that with two glorious legions we can still dominate this kingdom, and the city...
Extract from a letter, addressed to the Senate from Legatus Cotta.
...of dire attention. Our contact in Patavium was discovered recently; he escaped with his life, however, which is how I come across the information-personally from our man. He brings terrible news from the city. The enemy king has heard of our intentions, and has readied his forces for war. The supplies are being brought in, the men are being drawn in from around the kingdom. His forces are centering on protecting their capital of Patavium. It is with an increased sense of urgency that I order our forces to move at twice the pace, lest the enemy have too much time to prepare. However, I am still confident that with two glorious legions we can still dominate this kingdom, and the city...
Send legio 1 and 2 up there at once!
(OOC: and make lots of screenshots for your stories.)
navarro951
01-20-2009, 00:48
Blasio stands...
"Legio I and II will proceed to attack Patavium simultaneously. Legatus Cotta will be the overall commander. Legio III will be ready next season, Legatus Longvs be prepared to march north. Drill your men to the bone."
Blasio stands...
"Legio I and II will proceed to attack Patavium simultaneously. Legatus Cotta will be the overall commander. Legio III will be ready next season, Legatus Longvs be prepared to march north. Drill your men to the bone."
Surely your not going to insult Romans like this are you? To say that we need a whole 3 legions just to crush one measly tribe of barbarians is tantamount to saying the gauls are stronger then us! Even if they do call their brethren across the mountains 2 legions should be more then enough. 1 legionarre is worth 3 measly gauls!
That, and theirs also the logistical problem. Do the barbarians north even have the farming infrastructure in place to support so many soldiers? Do they even have official granarys at all? Even an uncompleted legio III has had to buy grain all the way from taras to support its belly.
(OOC theres a reason Caesar didnt keep his army in one place while in Gaul. The local communities just couldnt support so many soldiers at once)
Perhaps Legio III can be sent towards Massalia to begin the siege of that city? If necessary one of the other legions can be shifted to their support after Patavium is taken.
navarro951
01-20-2009, 01:41
"Excuse me? But if you had any sense of things you wouldn't put words in my mouth fool! I didnt say Legio III would march for Patavium. Just to march north. That could mean Massalia, Mediolanium, or anywhere else for that matter. Mind your tongue!"
"Excuse me? But if you had any sense of things you wouldn't put words in my mouth fool! I didnt say Legio III would march for Patavium. Just to march north. That could mean Massalia, Mediolanium, or anywhere else for that matter. Mind your tongue!"
Yes Basileus.
*Scipio sits down. The rest of the senate realizing they have a new king*
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
01-20-2009, 04:09
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus carefully observes Tribunus Scipio from the corner of his eye and their glances meet. Much is said in that brief connection. Surely this new tension with the Dictator could not bear well for Legio III Campania. He considers saying something to calm everyone involved but thinks better of it. Tiberius would let this game play out a while longer.
Potocello
01-20-2009, 05:12
Servivs Longvs stands to address the senators. He pauses, and prepares himself for what he is about to say.
"Noble dictator, please excuse my Tribvnvs he is a good man and means well. But perhaps a march north would not be best for the Legio III Campania. The Legio III Campania is not pleased with the idea of going north and we feel that the means do not justify the ends and continued conquest north would not be in Roma's favor. We have lost too much in the northern campaign, we do not want more Roman blood spilled at the hands of those naked barbarians. And for what? The lands in the north are hard, tough, cold, and the natives will do anything to keep us out.
This is why I propose, with the support of the Legio III Campania, that instead of sending us north, send us east to besiege and take Sparte. There, we will crush the weak and divided Greeks and establish shipping routes from the provinces that favor Roma. In Greece we shall find fertile soil as well as profitable shipping routes which expand all throughout the Mediterranean. By taking Greece we would tap into the wealth and culture of the east.
Consider the benefits of this, senators, provinces in Greece would be very profitable for Roma. Send me with the Legio III Campania to Greece."
Servivs sits down waiting for the debate to commence.
*Scipio sees Mercellus, and concluded that he needs to be less hostile. No need to get everyone against him. He listens intently to Servus, and decides to support it, for nothing bad can come of it and only good can be reaped*
*Scipio stands up*
I second this proposal. Though not out of cowardice. The Gauls are mighty foes, and worthy enemies on the battlefield. I will personally congratulate any of the senators here if they go to fight with such a foe, and will vote yes on a triumph if they are victorious.
The greeks in the east are divided, and weakend. Not only that, but they are openly hostile to our merchants. Our ships are booted out of their harbors only because trade between them and the rest of the easterners are deemed more important.
I reccomend changes to my commander's proposal. We setup friendler goverments in their cities. People willing to trade and communicate with Rome, people who will be our eyes and ears in places away from Rome. Let them govern themselves, but with Rome's friendly shield protecting them, and them giving us tribute.
(OOC client kings).
*Deciumus Cornelius Scipio takes his seat. The senate is silent, whether about to agree or shout down the proposal; Scipio does not know*
Potocello
01-20-2009, 05:37
*Scipio stands up*
I second this proposal. Though not out of cowardice. The Gauls are mighty foes, and worthy enemies on the battlefield. I will personally congratulate any of the senators here if they go to fight with such a foe, and will vote yes on a triumph if they are victorious.
The greeks in the east are divided, and weakend. Not only that, but they are openly hostile to our merchants. Our ships are booted out of their harbors only because trade between them and the rest of the easterners are deemed more important.
I reccomend changes to my commander's proposal. We setup friendler goverments in their cities. People willing to trade and communicate with Rome, people who will be our eyes and ears in places away from Rome. Let them govern themselves, but with Rome's friendly shield protecting them, and them giving us tribute.
(OOC client kings).
*Deciumus Cornelius Scipio takes his seat. The senate is silent, whether about to agree or shout down the proposal; Scipio does not know*
"Your changes are appropriate, Scipio, let them be added to the proposal.
Let it be known that i too do not want to go to Greece out of cowardice. I have fought in the north under Asina and i know the challenges each Roman faces when fighting in the north and i respect any that does. I just think that lives are being wasted with continuous conquest in the north while Greece remains open. I beseech you senators, send the Legio III to Greece.
navarro951
01-20-2009, 05:55
Blasio remains seated, with a puzzled, but interested look on his face...
"Your plan is sound, and I carry no grudge against your Tribune let us pass that. But I think invading Greece is a near impossibility. We have just sent diplomats on a two year voyage all the way to Asia minor. We haven't the money for a navy to get our troops their. And besides the Hellons were all kind to us, Makedonia, the Koinon Hellenon, the Selecuids, and the small kingdom of Pontos all granted us trade rights and their map information of the world. It seems all that would be a waste if we just march our legions through new found friends.
Only Phyrros, who is my standing rival in this world, would I consider to attack. My mentor and father figure, our great Dictator Dentatvs, pushed the idea of peace with the Epirotes and focus on economic prosperity here in Roma. But, while I don't disagree with filling our coffers, I only spoke for Dentatvs but do not feel the same. I will listen to the debate on this topic, an emergency council may be needed, but I stand firm and will only cast my vote towards re-inviting the bloodshed of vile Epirote soldiers."
Remaining seated, Blasio opens the floor for discussion and nods toward Legatus Longvs.
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
01-20-2009, 06:06
Tiberius could not believe his ears, it was all happening so fast. Tiny beads of sweat broke out at his hairline and he downed a cup of water while he gathered his bearings. Now the Legatus had shown his hand along with Tribunus Scipio. Two senators, though commanders of a Legion, would not be enough to convince the Dicator and the other members of the Curia that Greece should be the new jewel that Roma set its eyes toward. This would require rhetoric and solidarity of an unparalleled level. They were confident that there were two more senatores who would side with them on this issue; but there would certainly be opposition, mainly from those in command of Legio I and II. Tiberius could only hope that the plans laid out during the discussion he had had at dinner with Scipio were in place.
He stood up, cleared his throat and began,
"Senatores, it is with great respect and humility that I address this legislative body as not only a seasoned senator, but also as a Tribunus and Second in Command of the Legio III Campania. As you well know, though a member of the Gens Claudia my family hails from Tarentum for the past three generations. While Latin, we have great ties to the Hellenes in culture, language, and many other ways of life. Allow me the honor of addressing the advantages of sending the Legio III Campania into Hellas in stead of journeying to the north.
"First and foremost, the Res Publica has two separate Legions already campaigning in that territory. While there is yet work to be done, the peoples of that land have not proven to be united enough to be a threat to us in recent times. Other than garrison duty or defense against an unprecedented well-coordinated invasion from a combined force of both Gallic tribes and possibly even their northern Germanic neighbors, there is nothing that would require a third Legio to be sent to the north. It is highly dubious that the uncultivated lands could even support several extra thousands of fighting men for any sustained period of time without depriving the citizens and the local inhabitants of the towns that we seek to bring into our fold. Surely that would not make them feel amicably towards us, their new masters?
"Additionally, allow me to speak of the pro-Romani attitudes of many of the Hellenes on the Occidental coast of Hellas. Having been raised in a Hellenic town until my family - well-connected merchants, mind you - aided the spy sent into Tarentum by the Senate several years ago, I am very well versed and still up-to-date in on these matters. Romani culture, goods, religion, and law are all exported to the Greek isles with each ship that reaches their ports, and I attest that those are in an ever-increasing demand. While our forces would undoubtedly be forced to fight some battles, there are many amongst the countryside who would aide us in our fight. Verily, once the local population centers are captured, it would take little coersion to supplant the Hellenic government with one that was decidedly pro-Roman.
"With these friendly governments joining our ranks, the more stubborn of the cities would be weakened considerably while our own coffers and legions were strengthened. The fertile lands of Hellas also provide us the benefit of being rather close together in the mountainous terrain. Once a city was captured, it would be less than a season's march to lay seige to the walls of the next. This geography would speed our total control of the region, which, once properly subjugated, would enrich the Res Publica tenfold. We would then have enough denarii and able-bodied men to take on Carthago full-on, as well as advance into Gaul, and have forces ready to defend against any incursions from Aegyptus who have their eyes set upon the Greek jewel as well."
Tiberius takes a moment to down another cup of water and continues,
"Senatores, the lands to the north of Italia are exceedingly vast, frozen wastelands inhabited by viscious savages and unpenetratable forests. Even if all three armies were sent north they would become separated and subject to ambush from any amount of roaming savages. Our men would most assuredly suffer unnecessary casualties from exposure during the long, harsh, and unforgiving winters as our supply lines would undoubtedly be constantly harassed and intercepted by the enemy. Is that the fate you would send the sons of the Res Publica to? I should hope not. There will be a time when the whole of Europa will fall under the rule of the Senate; but men of Roma, this is not yet that time.
"I thank you for your attention and implore you once more, let Legio I and II finish pacifying the lands south of the Alps and consolidate their holdings. They have bled much and are in much need of a well-deserved rest. Let them begin to raise families in these new territories and Romanize them. Legio III Campania is more than capable and ready and willing to head to Greece, with the permission of the Senate, of course, and bring greater glory, wealth, slaves, and fighting men into our armament!"
*Senator Scipio rises, obviosly knowing what the dictator was going to say. Perhaps he already knows what most people are going to say and has planned responses for them?*
Invading Greece is not a near impossibility. We shall 'borrow' what transports we need from our merchant class. Of course we will compensate them for it, but they should be happy about it! We are expanding their profits 10 fold, for the markets of Greece are more numerous then Italia.
The easterners gave us trade rights like they would infants candy. Us romans are not a seafaring culture, and they know that. There is barely any room in their harbors for the ships we do have! They get their olive oil and wine from other places.
Please senators, realize this opportunity! The Greeks and Macedonians are now as we speak engaged in a fierce war. The Hellens army will be experianced, but depleted. Legio 3 has complete confidence in itself for quick and decisive victorys. If you send the legio III to Greece, our coffers will refill, the slave markets will refill, our ships will travel farther then they have ever gone before. How long have we gone without a scraping the bottom of the barrel that is the treasury? How long have we went without greeks to tutor and educate our young sons of Rome? Too long I say.
*Scipio sets down abruptly.*
(OOC me and marcellus posted at the same time. Hate when that happens)
navarro951
01-20-2009, 06:21
"Your telling me, and senators I would never doubt the might of a Roman legion, but you are telling me that the new Legio III which has not yet been tested in battle could easily, as you've put it, smash against the military strength and tactical genius that is the Spartan hoplite?"
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
01-20-2009, 06:26
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus stands again with an arm extended out towards Scipio.
"Honored members of the Senate, my fellow Tribunus and senator speaks the truth. Hellas is divided and ripe for conquest. Noble Dictator Blasio, your anymosity towards the Molossian is well-placed. As an ammendment to this proposal, I suggest that to deal with the Epirote menace, we allow one of the Legions in the north to harass and possibly even take the region of Dalmatia to draw Pyrrhus' attention off of our subversion in the south. There will not be many large battles to be fought against the Koinon Hellenon or the Makedonians. They are concerned with their own individual agendas rather than unite against us. This plan cannot fail.
"I have trained many years with a former commander of the armies of Taras. He is my aide de camp and an honest and capable man, true. I assure you that our legions are more mobile than any hoplite or even a phalanx, and the best way to annihilate them is to flank and surround them. Again I state that we will not fail."
navarro951
01-20-2009, 06:33
"I am a man of the senators , of the republic, if this topic truly suits some of us,and others are against it, it may be time for an emergency council. Give me a bit of time to make this decision."
"Your telling me, and senators I would never doubt the might of a Roman legion, but you are telling me that the new Legio III which has not yet been tested in battle could easily, as you've put it, smash against the military strength and tactical genius that is the Spartan hoplite?"
I admire the spartan hoplites. But its been decades, maybe even centurys before they were ever in sufficent numbers to actually be a winning force. Makedonia and Greece have been in a war for decades now, the polis in the south of greece will be lightly defended.
If Rome decides to lead another legio against the Epirotes, I will not agree or disagree. Its a sound plan, and the Dalmation pirates are really bad this time of year.
Senator Caivs stands, fury in his eyes.
What madness is this? Even after their plans to attack our allies in the south have been voted down, some members of this Senate insist upon proposing yet another folly. There are edicts passed by this Senate that are yet undone, but you begin push "daring" new plans before the ink is even dry.
The Celts and Gauls may not be united, but they are numerous. There are three major settlements yet to be taken by our legions in Cisalpine Gaul, something that makes the use of Legio III in the north a necessity. It is not cowardice, but prudence to say this and it is arrogance to say otherwise. We are Romans, YES, but not gods. As I have said before, the north is large, sending three legions there will cause no great difficulty for food stores, especially if we send Legio III to Massalia Caivs' voice rises and hardens as this Senate ordered be taken. There is business for us in the north, business that the Senate felt was more important than ill-conceived forays in the south or east.
And yet you would have us sail across the sea in boats we don't have and can't afford, to a land filled with the battle hardened sons of Megos Alexandros, and take the legendary city of Sparta with a legion of green untested soldiers. And then what? What will we do then surrounded by Greek armies and cut off from reinforcements and supplies in a land turned against us by our unprovoked hostility. Sirs your plan is madness without any help from my tongue. And this is without even mentioning the loss of trade and friendship our diplomats have just secured for us. Should that be tossed aside so lightly?
And finally, for those of you who spent too much time with your Greek tutors growing up, there are plenty of boy-lovers in the Greek colony of Massalia with which for you to make friends.
Senator Caivs Aemilia casts a meaningful glance at Senator Tiberius a small mocking smile playing at his lips.
I say that this proposal is self-apparent foolishness, let us discard it as such and speak no more of an attack on Hellas at present.
Senator Caivs resumes his seat
navarro951
01-20-2009, 06:45
"And what if it does fail gentlemen. Say we do take Sparte, Corinth. And then what??? You think Makedon and Greece are just going to accept a peace then? NO! They will come down on us with their most elite troops and massacre us. Xerxes was stopped at Thermopylae, then they will fight with everything they've got to beat us as well. We are speaking so far ahead of ourselves it gives me a headache"
Potocello
01-20-2009, 06:50
"Your telling me, and senators I would never doubt the might of a Roman legion, but you are telling me that the new Legio III which has not yet been tested in battle could easily, as you've put it, smash against the military strength and tactical genius that is the Spartan hoplite?"
"As Scipio has said, the Spartans have not truly been a formidable force for quite some time, the same
can be said for Greece as a whole. They stand a shattered nation of another time.
As you all know, i have fought the vicious barbarians in the north. It can be said that their ferocity can
rival that of the Spartan hoplite. I am confident that Marcellus' loyalty and wisdom and Scipio's fiery
passion will translate well to the battlefield. I am confident that we can lead the Legio III Campania to
victory against the Spartans. It is true, Roman might may be tested in the battle against the Spartans
but it is a battle we cannot lose.
Senators, the wealth of Greece is bleeding from their disunited land. Let us stop the bleeding with
Roman influence. Let us sail to Greece."
navarro951
01-20-2009, 07:00
"Let us sail to Greece? Tell me what do you plan to sail on? Planks, logs, or are you willing to swim? We haven't the money for a standing navy. If it was a navy to simply leave the legion on the Greek territory, which would be insane, then sure. But we would have to keep a standing navy to pull the men out of their. It is too costly, and risky aside from what you believe. We've no idea the strength of their armies divided or not. And no naked, idiotic barbarian will ever amount to what the Spartans have accomplished in their time. Our legions have proven their worth, but we are yet to face an enemy as monstrous as the Greeks have faced. Yes they are divided, but in times of war they can come together as one formidable foe."
Potocello
01-20-2009, 07:00
"Senator Caivs, plans to attack Carthage were foolish because they are united. They have the
wealth, the power, and the territory to defeat us while the Hellen do not. We would take Sparte
leaving the Koinon Hellenon with only two territories. From there, we could build our forces, retrain
and prepare to take Korinthos if we desire to. Makedonia is strong but will be to preoccupied with
fighting Epeiros and the remaining Koinon Hellenon that they will not be able to route us from Greece.
And how dare you insult senator Tiberius. His education has turned him into one of the best men i
have ever known."
Servivs stands there, furious at Caivs for the insult
OOC: ah i hate responding after someone has said something new while i was writing
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
01-20-2009, 07:02
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus and a handfull of senatores stand up and pound the desks in front of them with their fists repeatedly, accompanied by just as many repeated grunts of agreement as is the custom of parliamentary bodies. Various shouts of "Death to Greece!", "Eastward!", and "Legio III will succeed!" intersperse the commotion and jubilant concurence.
Senator Caivs stands, fury in his eyes.
What madness is this? Even after their plans to attack our allies in the south have been voted down, some members of this Senate insist upon proposing yet another folly. There are edicts passed by this Senate that are yet undone, but you begin push "daring" new plans before the ink is even dry.
The Celts and Gauls may not be united, but they are numerous. There are three major settlements yet to be taken by our legions in Cisalpine Gaul, something that makes the use of Legio III in the north a necessity. It is not cowardice, but prudence to say this and it is arrogance to say otherwise. We are Romans, YES, but not gods. As I have said before, the north is large, sending three legions there will cause no great difficulty for food stores, especially if we send Legio III to Massalia Caivs' voice rises and hardens as this Senate ordered be taken. There is business for us in the north, business that the Senate felt was more important than ill-conceived forays in the south or east.
And yet you would have us sail across the sea in boats we don't have and can't afford, to a land filled with the battle hardened sons of Megos Alexandros, and take the legendary city of Sparta with a legion of green untested soldiers. And then what? What will we do then surrounded by Greek armies and cut off from reinforcements and supplies in a land turned against us by our unprovoked hostility. Sirs your plan is madness without any help from my tongue. And this is without even mentioning the loss of trade and friendship our diplomats have just secured for us. Should that be tossed aside so lightly?
And finally, for those of you who spent too much time with your Greek tutors growing up, there are plenty of boy-lovers in the Greek colony of Massalia with which for you to make friends.
Senator Caivs Aemilia casts a meaningful glance at Senator Tiberius a small mocking smile playing at his lips.
I say that this proposal is self-apparent foolishness, let us discard it as such and speak no more of an attack on Hellas at present.
Senator Caivs resumes his seat
*Scipio rises calmly. Emphasizes his cool head and calmness. Next to Aemilia's fury he might appear more intelligent and coolheaded then he actually is*
Thats quite a arguement there but I respect it, and debate it one by one in order.he
The 3 settlements yet to be taken can be taken by Legio 1 and 2. The glory is all theirs. If needed, legio 3 can stay behind until they can be taken. I shouldve made this more clear. Pardon that.
The edict just failed for the attack on Carthrage, yet it wasnt because they were our allies. Dont let that fool you, it was because the north isnt taken yet, and that was in the past. The north gets closer and closer to being taken. Its also because we didnt have a extra legion on hand.
The land of Greece is not the land it was when Socrates, Homor, Pelicles, or when Thermoplye happened. The land is just as rich as it was back then, but its soldiers are mercenarys in the far east, its military traditions have been outdated, and the war with Makedonia have depleted the armies it does have.
And the question not what would we do when encountered by a superior force, but what would they do.
*Scipio takes his seat. A fellow senator behind him sais to him "Did you see his Aemilia's face?*
(OOC I know what you mean ;)
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
01-20-2009, 07:15
"Legatus Longus, Tribunus Scipio, thank you for your defense of my character. These hallowed halls have indeed been defiled with such a personal insult as the one made by Senator Mamercus. But I shall accept his disrespect with calm and refuse to acknowledge it further. Indeed, it is beneath those of the Gens Claudia to be dragged into public feuds like commoners. His arguments have been refuted by you, Scipio; and, should any doubt remain, let it be made clear that Senator Mamercus is but a pawn of those in league with Legatus Cotta. He and those like him are as wolves: bold in numbers, cautious by themselves, going whichever way the wind blows."
"Let us sail to Greece? Tell me what do you plan to sail on? Planks, logs, or are you willing to swim? We haven't the money for a standing navy. If it was a navy to simply leave the legion on the Greek territory, which would be insane, then sure. But we would have to keep a standing navy to pull the men out of their. It is too costly, and risky aside from what you believe. We've no idea the strength of their armies divided or not. And no naked, idiotic barbarian will ever amount to what the Spartans have accomplished in their time. Our legions have proven their worth, but we are yet to face an enemy as monstrous as the Greeks have faced. Yes they are divided, but in times of war they can come together as one formidable foe."
As I said before, Ships from the merchant class. In case you never saw one before, they are perfect transports.
Legio III will capture a city within 2 seasons, if the transports get raided before that then we can gather another fleet of merchants or the remnants of the defeated fleet with the gold we take from the Hellenes. It will all pay for itself.
Yes, in Sparta's TIME. Not now, not since our great grandfathers lived. What have they acheived of note? Very few of their warriors are trained like they were of old.
navarro951
01-20-2009, 07:20
Blasio shoots up and storms in anger...
"How dare you speak of Legatus Cotta in that way! He is brother of Roma and a brother to me! You are but a tribune, and have not proven yourself to even half of what Legatus Cotta has. You speak as if you have been through the bloody battles they have. Wolves! You disgust me!"
Blasio shoots up and storms in anger...
"How dare you speak of Legatus Cotta in that way! He is brother of Roma and a brother to me! You are but a tribune, and have not proven yourself to even half of what Legatus Cotta has. You speak as if you have been through the bloody battles they have. Wolves! You disgust me!"
*Scipio shoots a look at Macellus. Macellus understands and gives a wink*
Please excuse Macelllus for that remark. He is...overly agressive sometimes. Something the Greeks shall come to fear, unless Aemilia and the dictator have their way with it.
(OOC his traits coincide with his last post
https://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z132/mstgnymike/BtSH-3/TiberivsMarcellvs-266.jpg
navarro951
01-20-2009, 07:38
"I do not feel I can forgive this remark...Legatus Cotta served in Taras, Rhegion, Bononia, Segesta, and will lead the attack on Patavium. He is our most proven commander at the moment. And Tribune Tiberius should learn to show respect where it is due regardless of political difference."
Potocello
01-20-2009, 07:42
"For the time being, I feel you must forgive this remark or at least let it go. Let this not get sidetracked with useless
bickering for we are here to discuss the issue of attacking Greece."
I want to remind the senate that we are not exactly conquering Greece. But installing friendlier goverments. The people will rule themselves by people they know and trust. In the end we are helping the greeks out. No longer will they have to fear Makedonian retribution or a reconquest by the Epirotes. In the end peace and prosperity will reign over the sections of greece we help, and that is what we all want correct? Peace and Prosperity.
Caivs stands to speak again
Senator Marcellus, you criticize the passion of my words and yet refuse to respond to my arguments; a quite convenient way to dodge the truth of my statements. Is that a Greek trick perhaps? You say that I am only brave in numbers and go whichever way the winds blows and yet I only stand against the three of you; although I am sure others will speak in agreement with me when the rest of the Senate learns of your mad proposal. It is again convenient that you choose to bring this up when Legatus Cotta and my cousin are in the north with the legion and I only happened to be here to procure supplies, else you would be unopposed. Was that your plan?
Caivs turns
Senator Scipio, you say the edict to go south failed because the north had yet to be taken and that is in the past now; yet that is at the very least an ill-informed statement since we are no closer now to securing the north than we were 3 months ago. What has changed exactly? You say two legions can secure the north, I agree. However three legions would make the process go much faster and make doubly sure our victory. I say we should use our legions where the Senate voted to use them and not on some unauthorized foolishness.
As for Greece you have yet to answer any of my points, save one, and that with a bad assumption. Do you really think that the Greeks who went all the way to the Indus have backsliden so far as to no longer be a threat? Do you really believe that when faced with an outside threat they will not drop their petty bickering to face us with a united front? And even if they don't, do you think Macedonia would not see our invasion and weakening of Koinon Hellenon as the chance they've been waiting for to seize all of Hellas?
No, you have left much unanswered and continue on only on high unfounded rhetoric and ill-conceived dreams.
Caivs stands to speak again
Senator Marcellus, you criticize the passion of my words and yet refuse to respond to my arguments; a quite convenient way to dodge the truth of my statements. Is that a Greek trick perhaps? You say that I am only brave in numbers and go whichever way the winds blows and yet I only stand against the three of you; although I am sure others will speak in agreement with me when the rest of the Senate learns of your mad proposal. It is again convenient that you choose to bring this up when Legatus Cotta and my cousin are in the north with the legion and I only happened to be here to procure supplies, else you would be unopposed. Was that your plan?
Caivs turns
Senator Scipio, you say the edict to go south failed because the north had yet to be taken and that is in the past now; yet that is at the very least an ill-informed statement since we are no closer now to securing the north than we were 3 months ago. What has changed exactly? You say two legions can secure the north, I agree. However three legions would make the process go much faster and make doubly sure our victory. I say we should use our legions where the Senate voted to use them and not on some unauthorized foolishness.
As for Greece you have yet to answer any of my points, save one, and that with a bad assumption. Do you really think that the Greeks who went all the way to the Indus have backsliden so far as to no longer be a threat? Do you really believe that when faced with an outside threat they will not drop their petty bickering to face us with a united front? And even if they don't, do you think Macedonia would not see our invasion and weakening of Koinon Hellenon as the chance they've been waiting for to seize all of Hellas?
No, you have left much unanswered and continue on only on high unfounded rhetoric and ill-conceived dreams.
I said we are getting closer and closer to taking the northern cities. If we are not, then what are they doing up there? I shall disregard this, but maybe your tutor didnt teach you enough on the latin language.
And how is my proposal to go liberate parts of Greece unauthorized? Exactly when im trying to authorize it?
Your right though that I didnt recongize all the points you made earlier. How dare you accuse me of trying to eliminate the cash flow we are receiving from trade with them, when I was the senator that proposed we send emmisarys to start the cash flow in the first place? And how stupid can you be if you do not consider that the very 2 cities we intend to capture from the time we land in Greece are the ones that are trading? The ports will be reopened very soon.
The Greeks as of now are not the greeks of old. They have no generals of great note and alot of their warrior class has went east to look for work in the Successor States. They are embroiled in a war with Makedonia, which by the way its important to note that Alexander was a Makedonian, not a Greek.
Their are plenty of boy lovers in both Greece and Massilia. Perhaps I will send you the best one to tutor you in comprehension. You need it.
SwissBarbar
01-20-2009, 08:53
Avlvs Aemilivs Mamervcs, who came back from the legion's camp together with his cousin and cotta, has been calmy listening to this debate , but now i was enough
Decimus Cornelius Scipio, DON'T YOU INSULT MY COUSIN, you miserable maggot. I divest you of my friendship. Shut up and listen AGAIN, to what you should know already. He sighed.
Senatores, I am no friend of the greeks at all, and would rather see them crushed sooner than later. But IT IS TOO EARLY FOR THAT. Did you all, who pledge for war, forget, that we just voted and accepted an Edict, which contains to send diplomates to Epeiros, and seek trade and peace, and now you come with war? Do you think the Epeirotes and Makedonians, who - other than our legions yet - already have conquered a gread Empire once? What, do we just fight everone at the same time now? Celts, Greeks, Carthaginians..? Come on, lets fight the Seleukids and the Ptolemaioi too. One more legion should do, right?
Senatores! War with Greece will be brought upon us soon enough. Should we take a Greek city like Massalia or even Syrakousai, not only the Carthaginians will march against us, but also your beloved Spartans. Don't rush with it! Lets finish the southern Celts, before taking the risk of getting slaughtered at many fronts.
Our legions are strong and well equipped. But even the greatest warrior needs to eat and espeacially be paid. 3 legions, as strong as our fellow Roman brothers may be, are just not enough to face all our neighbour's armies at once
navarro951
01-20-2009, 09:30
"Well said Avlvs, on another note...I think some of you nay-sayers need to rethink the way you speak of our men who at this very moment march for war. Our legionaries are not cattle to be wasted and thrown from this front to that. On this Greek issue, as I said before...it is risky and some of you speak as if we can walk through Greek lands without a scratch. Know this, regardless of whether or not they are the old Greece, they will band together in times of desperation and they will fight with a ferocity we have not even seen fighting barbarians."
SwissBarbar
01-20-2009, 09:44
Hear! Hear! True are your words, the Barbarians may be brave, but we even can beat them, when they outnumber us, because their tactical skills are not too well. The greeks are equiped at least as good as us, and not only they could outnumber us too, if they worked together with the Epeirotes and Makedonians, they also know about tactics. Yes, we have beaten them. But remember at what cost! Here in Italy. Think of what they could do to us when we invade their homeland now.
everyone
01-20-2009, 11:48
Cicero enters the Curia after a private discussion with Dictator Blasio away, he appears calm.
most of the senators expect him to speak and voice an opinion, however Cicero remains silent.
Apparent that Cicero does not want to makes his opinions known now, the rest of the Curia carry on debating.
everyone
01-20-2009, 13:27
after a few moments of senators chattering with the neighbours, Cicero finally decides to voice his opinion.
"Firstly, I am unclear of where everybody desires our troops to be sent. It is obvious that a few support them going to Greece, while another few supports the taking of Massilia, however the targets of the rest are not known.
Secondly what we are discussing here is what is to happen after Patavium is taken, yes? If that is the case, we may have two more legions which are ready to campaign after that, would that not give us the ability to attack multiple weak targets, or a single united foe? and on the issue of Greece, which region do the senators who wish for an invasion towards there refer to? is it Peleponessos? is it Macedonia? Eprius? Aetolia? or somewhere further north? I see Legatus Servius is referring to Peleponessos, how about the rest? If we are to invade Greece, I would suggest we take Epirus (the region, not the kingdom) first; from my intelligence reports, they are rather weakly garrisoned, and are within a short sail from Italia."
"That said, it would seem the most clear option here is Epirus, though that may change anytime soon, since taking Patavium might re-ignite the war with the Gauls, or the Poeni may decide that our alliance, trade and treaties are no longer valid to them and force us to have no choice but to declare war on them."
before taking his seat, Cicero interrupted his actions
"Though I may support expanding into Greece, I do not wish to accomplish it by completely taking over their lands. If possible, we may annex a region or two and establish our culture there, to encourage cooperation rather than resistance; and only launch a full invasion when it is necessary, which is not sometime in the foreseeable future. Or eventual expansion there may continue taking the form of annexing the lands there slowly and more peacefully."
(OOC: of course by 'annexing' I refer to the way Massalia is supposed to be taken as according to edict 3.2; though FD might need to be used once we 'annex' the region to restore peace)
I have a reply for all at once.
It seems to me my opponenents, im not going to call them enemies, have 2 points in mind.
1)Too soon
2)Romans need not go to the slaughterhouse that is war.
All these are noble sentiments and I respect them entirely. Though I do not share them. Im more of a city type of person, get up and go I say, but that's just me. If the majority of the senate body demands that we wait, then wait we shall. For this is a senate body and a republic first and foremost, and I respect everyone's opinion and disagreements, no matter if its against mine.
The other point, that Roman soldiers are not aplenty and that we need to wait. For the Roman soldiers to go back to their farms and live with their family again. I have a radical idea. Bare with me now...we recruit our Italic Allies. Samnites, Campanians, Lucians, Mendolians, have them serve in our legion. If you want have the whole legion be Italian allies then thats fine by me, for most of you think this is a suicide mission. And who better to go on a suicide mission then people who thirst for war? People who have been excluded in our last battles, people who have to go elsewhere to practice their skill at arms, people who have to think of being bandits and pirates just to use their skills theyre fathers and grandfathers passed down from generation to generation?
Have units of legio III reinforce legio I and II, but replace whatever went with Samnites, who are equipped in the same manner and fight in the same way as us. This should satisfy Aemilia, who wants legio III to help the other legions, which they will. And Blasio along with Avlvs who dont want romans to die.
Avlvs, I would not have insulted your cousin so if he hadnt went on the offensive with me. It is he who threw the first stone, and I couldve responded much more hotly then I had. As for the friendship thing, I would ask you to reconsider, for you are a honorable and valuable senator. I shall take back my words against your cousin if it offends you so.
I have made my proposal to change the proposal without the consent and foreknowledge of my commander. I hope he agrees with me, its not my place to change the composition of the army. Also please note we do not with war with the Epirotes, though the invasion of southern greece will help greatly if we ever do decide to get those bastards back. For its southern greece we are proposing to invade.
(OOC have the legions take the last 3 settlements, then reinforce legio III with italic allies on the extra money we have from that)
*Scipio takes his seat, and looks around to see senators flabberghasted by the proposal to use the allies. How will samnites behave in Greece? Will they loot or pillage with abandon? Or maybe this is a good time to get rid of any potential rebels so close to home, for it wasnt too long ago they were marching with Phyrrus himself.*
(OOC Edit: I posted same time as Cicero.)
As said before Cicero. I do not wish to conquer the Greeks, for running foreign lands is expensive and not what we Romans have ever did outside Italia. Just replace their heads of state with friendlier ones. They are used to tyrants, and we shall not be tyrants from afar. Their own people will rule their own, even if they are not popular nothing will change.
SwissBarbar
01-20-2009, 15:13
"Decimvs Cornelivs Scipio" Avlvs calmly said. He repeated. "Decimvs Cornelivs Scipio. A noble name you have. The family of the Cornelii has served rome almost as well as us Aemilii, so we should not argue" Avlvs gave a quiet smile, well aware of the fact, that like the Aemilii also the Gens Cornelia envisioned themselves as the oldest and greatest Roman family. "Your thought is interesting, but yet there are points that must not be overseen.
1. Italian Allies are a well support in our armies, we should recruit them more often, I agree.
2. I disagree, that we should recruit a pure Italian-Legion. They should NEVER outnumber roman troops in a legion, or they may run over to the enemy. The last thing we need if we want to conquer Greece, is to send them 10'000 samnites, that gladly join them destroying us.
3. Even if they used to fight us, they are our allies now and are not to be wasted. When they attack us, ok, then we exterminate them, but as long as they serve us, there's no need to be cruel. If many men of our Italian Allies die in Greece or somewhere else, who pays tribute, carries for commerce with our merchants and till their fields? Their women?" Avlvs laughed. Or you, Scipio? He raised an eyebrow.
If we waste our own soldiers or our allies makes not much difference, it still would raise our enemies courage and moral, and instantly lowered the loyality of our allies, who of course would fear soon to be sent to death too.
A Cornelius - as a true Roman - surely knows the valour of our confederation - system. We cannot afford to shake it. Should we be invaded, it MUST be steadfast!"
Turning to the senators
"So I repeat, senatores, we have to proceed step by step. Let us conquer the southern Gallic cities, let us force the by this weakened Gauls to peace, and then decide what'd be best: IF we expanded our sphere of influence to Sicily, OR if we went to Iberia, OR if we subjugated the Greeks OR if we took the lands of the Illyrioi.
The safety and prosperity of the Roman people must be our ultimate ambition!"
Aemilivs looked around stony-faced and and waited a moment to bring the influence of his words to bear. Then he seated himself and whisepered something to another senator, who began to smile and nodded.
The Celtic Viking
01-20-2009, 16:05
"Good senators of Rome! Listen to Avlvs words and mark them well, for they bear the hallmark of wisdom. Folly it would be to let Italian soldiers outnumber our own Romans, for they would fight us if they thought they could win. By sending them to Greece, we would only bolster the enemy's numbers!
But as for war in Greece, it has long been my opinion that we should follow Pyrrhos and kick his Molossan ass as soon as we have the chance. When Cisalpine Gaul and Massalia are secured, the time for it will be ripe. We will be able to afford enough ships for the operation by then, and we will have Legios freed up from their current mission in the north. But this can and should be debated later; lets all focus on the task at hand for now."
All good points you have indeed. But you should note that I said I would not mind a pure itallic army, not that I reccomend one. And the confederation is not secure as you might think. The samnites went to Phyros side as soon as he landed troops on our shores, and they will go again if another army lands a army on our shores. The only place where they can be secure, loyal troops to Rome is in foreign lands.
If many troops die in Greece, the trading will be carried on by their sons, and the farming carried on by the slaves we send back. Numbers are not a issue.
*his tone turning more somber, he turns his focus to the senator's cousin*
Aemilus, would you support sending legio III to greece AFTER the business in the north is finished?
SwissBarbar
01-20-2009, 19:01
Avlvs answers
The first part of what you said is contradictory, you say they fought with Phyrros - which is true - but you still consider them loyal enough to fight for us in foreign countries. So the enemy does not even have to send diplomats to bribe them, because we send them to the enemy as a present, so he can send them back as a part of his army.
Numbers ARE an issue, because in war its not the fathers but its the sons, that die!
Apart from that: Yes. If business IS finished in southern Gaul, and the borders are secure, then I would not mind an armed holiday in Greece. But if we go there, not only with one legion. If we invade, we do it properly.
The Celtic Viking
01-20-2009, 20:40
"Blasio, there have been some misfortunes in Legio I's preparations for war - sabotage by spies, no doubt - which has delayed us while Legio II has marched on.* It is, however, my firm belief that they do not need our help to take Patavium. That's why I ask for permission to move west instead, and take it on me to secure Massalia instead."
*OOC: There seems to have been a misunderstanding since I in a PM asked Baen to move Legio I as well, but it would appear that he forgot about it or something. That's the real reason for Legio I's current inactivity. :shame:
navarro951
01-20-2009, 20:42
"Blasio, there have been some misfortunes in Legio I's preparations for war - sabotage by spies, no doubt - which has delayed us while Legio II has marched on.* It is, however, my firm belief that they do not need our help to take Patavium. That's why I ask for permission to move west instead, and take it on me to secure Massalia instead."
*OOC: There seems to have been a misunderstanding since I in a PM asked Baen to move Legio I as well, but it would appear that he forgot about it. That's the real reason for Legio I's current inactivity. :wall:
(OOC: ARRGHH ya i know i was going to move it for you as Baen may not of seen that SOT, i did. Okay well were using force_diplomacy on Massalia...so I guess you could go their as a RP thing?)
*Scipio rises slowly, barely hearing Avlvs's speech.He remembers the comment he made earlier, insulting the Cornelius house. Scipio makes a note to hire the local boys to egg his villa*
The samnites want only one thing, their land back. They care nothing for foreign gold, or foreign interests. Away from our soil they are strangers and will fight just as well as our legionarres do.
On your other point: The proposal by Servus was not a invasion of the whole of Greece, such a thing would require much more then 1 legion. But merely taking southern greece. Which we firmly believe is possible. If you personally think we will need more, perhaps adding extra hastasti or skirmishers for garrison duty will be enough for you?
The Celtic Viking
01-20-2009, 20:50
(OOC: ARRGHH ya i know i was going to move it for you as Baen may not of seen that SOT, i did. Okay well were using force_diplomacy on Massalia...so I guess you could go their as a RP thing?)
OOC: Oh, I didn't know that. Well, yeah, we could make it RP, something like "they will become our allies, but wish us for our presence ensure their safety: taadaa", or the more mafia-stylized "ally with is or else...". Yeah. If you read this before ending the turn, please move me towards Massalia then.
Potocello
01-20-2009, 21:09
*Scipio rises slowly, barely hearing Avlvs's speech.He remembers the comment he made earlier, insulting the Cornelius house. Scipio makes a note to hire the local boys to egg his villa*
The samnites want only one thing, their land back. They care nothing for foreign gold, or foreign interests. Away from our soil they are strangers and will fight just as well as our legionarres do.
On your other point: The proposal by Servus was not a invasion of the whole of Greece, such a thing would require much more then 1 legion. But merely taking southern greece. Which we firmly believe is possible. If you personally think we will need more, perhaps adding extra hastasti or skirmishers for garrison duty will be enough for you?
"What Scipio says here is true. I think that the objectives in going to Greece were severely
misunderstood. The plan would be to sail to the Peloponnese, land, and take Sparte. There, we would
establish friendlier and more profitable shipping routes to Roma. I do not want to go to Greece for
greater personal glory or for conquest, i want to ensure better shipping and more wealth is reaching
Roma.
I would also not mind waiting to go to Sparte until things are finished in the north but i will not be in
approval for continued conquest in the north, when Greece could be so beneficial now."
SwissBarbar
01-20-2009, 21:10
Unlike Scipio, Avlvs very carefully listened to what his opponent said, and answers.
"Well, in my opinion a Legatvs should make an official proposal here in the curia, when it is the time to think about the Geeks. He should define exactly what his targets are, what regions and cities he intends to take and of course what Legions he wants to take with him, how strong these legions are, what garrison troops are needed, how many soldiers from our allies he intends to recruit and by what time he will have fulfilled the task.
Then I can say if I'm satisfied. I will not let you pin me down in this matter here, by already making a decision.
Turning to Longvs
Dear Legatvs Servivs Sempronivs Longvs, with all due respect, what you are proposing here is an invasion, and nothing else, no matter how few settlements you intend to take."
Potocello
01-20-2009, 21:22
Turning to Memercvs, Longus speaks.
"Call it what you must, Memercvs. But as i said before, going to Greece would be be both beneficial to Roma and Greece. We would bring wealth to Roma while also uniting Greece under Roman rule. Both nations would be able to experience the diverse cultures and riches of each of our nations."
I am against incorporating Greece into the empire. Let them govern themselves for the time being, and over time even let them have their own hellen troops as guards,merely replace their heads of states, and extract a alliance. With the Might of rome guarding them the makedonians and Epirotes will no longer terrorize the Greek Polis. Of course the current tyrants will never support this, but I agree that the people will once they see the benefits. All of this will benefit Rome and Greece.
I agree with you Avlvs, I shall confide privately Longus to formulate a official proposal.
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
01-20-2009, 21:53
Having listened to the countering opinions of the Greek plan, Tiberius Claudius Marcellus stands slowly and paces about the floor of the Curia while he postures, dramatically showing off the thought process he had completed last night when he retired from the chambers. When enough of the private deliberation had quieted down, he began:
"Legatus Cotta and Legio I Apulia have been sabotaged by spies? How could this have happnened within our own sphere of influence? This brings to the forefront many of the questions so many of us have had in these past few months pertaining to the readiness and effectiveness of that command. A grumbling of support broke out amongst the senatores that this indeed was an issue that must be addressed. Tiberius waved his hand asking for silence. He continued, "Be that as it may, Heres Cicero was wise to remind the hotter heads, he markedly turned to face the Aemilii cousins and even gave a brief glance to the Dictator, "that contest our planned subversion of Greece towards a more open support of Roma, that this plan was not to take effect until after Patavium and the north were secured, as voted on and approved by this council.
"This proposed idea was simply, and purely, a desire to enlarge and enrich the Res Publica with all that Hellas has to offer. If those in league with the command of Legio I and II are troubled by such selfless desires because of greed or short sightedness, and wish to continue arguments against our grandiose plan, then please, continue. Allow the record to show that you stand in the way of greatness and destiny in order to better your own stations at the expense of the Res Publica and the people you represnt.
At that statement most of the Senate erupts into arguing amongst themselves. Clearly this is a hotbed issue. Tiberius takes it in and relishes every moment of seeing this discord, this disharmony amongst the various 'leaders' who seek nothing but glory and riches for themselves. He sips from a cup of water allowing his controlled chaos to continue. From somewhere in the back a voice rings out, "And what are your motives, Greek?" Tiberius looks up suddenly, his eyes darting to the faces of each member of the Senate to see who had uttered such an offense. The faces of the men were unrevealing and no one seemed to even be looking toward the direction the voice had come from. He needed to regain control, and regain it now. He placed his cup upon the table, clasped his hands behind his back and began to walk to floor.
"Such bold words from one who would hide in the shadows. If you've not the testicular fortitude to insult me to my face, then I suggest you find a differrent line of work. I hear told there is a shortage of pig farmers in Apulia, perhaps you would find comfort amongst your own kind there?"
There was much laughter yet no one came forward as the offending senator. Tiberius would extend his network of informants to catch the insect who did this and then destroy them when the time was right. Until then, there was still the issue of persuading the Senate to accept this foray into Greece.
"Noble Senatores, let us not be distracted by such childish outbursts, surely spurred on by those who contest this plan. As you all know, I am of the Gens Claudia, nobile Romans all. Though my particular branch of the family tree had resided in Tarentum for the past three generations there is no Greek blood in my veins. Though I am accustomed to and familiar with the culture, language, arts, and politics of Hellas, I and my family are Latins to the core. Any statement to the contrary is a lie. A filthy, unsupported lie. And if anyone here suggests or openly states that I or my family are of anything but Romani lineage, then they and their house shall answer to me. I expect no further deliberation on this matter.
"As my fellow Tribunus, my Legatus, and I myself have stated multiple times within this debate, this is not a conquest of Greece. The common people are of like mind that in Roma lies the future. It is simply their leadership in the various poli that need convincing. When they are toppled, the people shall rejoice and overthrow the last remnants of Greek leadership and support the Res Publica entirely. Some of this can surely be accomplished through diplomacy and diplomacy's lubrication: gold. Our Legio III Campania is simply there to assist those who would do our work for us, as well as to show the Greek peoples that Roma is sincere in its desire to have firm relations with them.
"The legion could be supported by various levies and auxilliary forces from the country side to augment our own troops, often fighting the battles themselves - a testament to their devotion to Roma and all that we embody. The fleets needed could indeed be supported by local merchants, and my family will be the first to offer ten such vessels to assist this endeavor. (ooc: use the command line to create one ship). Our first goal will be to help change the governments of the closest port towns, so that trade and resupply can be established immediately. As one who knows, the Greeks will not stand united against us. Each polis will attempt to consolidate its own holdings, and when faced with the threat of a powerful legion and the threat of rebellion of its own populace will crumble as a tower of unbaked bricks.
"Senatores, this plan cannot fail. The three commanders who have created this plan are the ones going to lead it and put their very lives on the line. There is much to gain through this course of action and little to lose. And for those who would twist my words and callously interpret them as having complete disregard of the soldiers we would lead, let me tell you that those who serve in our armies are volunteers. They seek out danger and battle purposely, and risk their lives for fortune and glory of their own volition. They know the risks but chose so accordingly. I ask you to not disregard the free-made decisions of our fellow citizens out of an unfounded hatred of those who would command them or out of a desire to obtain glory and riches for yourself. You, as their elected representatives owe them much more than that."
SwissBarbar
01-20-2009, 22:02
"My name is Mamercvs, Legatvs Longvs.
Tribunus Tiberius Claudius Marcellus, a nice speech you held. And i agree that Greece is rich, and that we could profit from it. But why Sparte? I don't understand, that respectable commanders like you, do not see this:
Sparte is not the richest town in Greece, but the one with the most redoubtable warriors, so our direct benefit would be minimal.
What concerns your indirect benefit, for example taking our culture there and trade..."
Avlvs almost shouted, but contained himself
"DO YOU.... do you really think, that if we took naught but Sparte - THE Sparte - the Greeks would just watch, and say: "Oh, the Romans are here, well, let's trade and make them rich." Not even the Gods could make that happen. They would gather and attack and attack again, the costs alone to defend the city would reach heaven, and we would not gain a single dirty Drachma out of Greece, but most likely even come to grief! I say, we may go to Greece if the time is right, yes! But when we're there, we have to take their land and their rich cities, like Athenai.
Fellow Senatores, we are Romans! We don't do things by half-measures!!! What say you?"
If we didnt take sparta then we would be in between greek armies previosly fighting the Makedonians, and greek levys from sparta. In short, we would be sandwiched.
The official proposal is being worked at currently. All questions will be answered, all details examined, the costs ledged in the ledger, the speculations speculated, and the plans be planned.
SwissBarbar
01-20-2009, 22:15
Did you not listen to me AGAIN? Avlvs smiled I said take ALL of Greece, which includes Sparte.
The Celtic Viking
01-20-2009, 22:27
"Tiberivs, Legatvs Cotta has no blame in this. I fully take the blame for allowing agents to delay me and my army, so though your critique is just, it should be aimed at me, not him: and I take it, for I know I deserve it. My fullest apology to Blasio, and the whole Senate, for failing to stop this misfortune. Rest assured though that this problem has been taken care of: the spies have all been cought, and they were prudently punished for their crimes.
However, I am quite confused and disgusted by the rest of your speech. I am not against an invasion of Greece: in fact, I think I have made it quite clear here that I for a very long time have wanted one! While I accept blame for that which I am responsible of, I will not have you badmouth me for something I do not stand for! Your rhetoric is shameful, and far below that which should be the standard in these halls. Juno's cunt! Have you no honour? Show some respect! Your actions here is a disgrace for this great Senate you so unworthily call yourself a part of!" As he said that, a lot of clamour began, and loud agreements was heard from many a senator.
navarro951
01-20-2009, 22:34
"Legatus Regvlvs, I understand. Men who are rats, vile rats, such as the spies you caught are an inconvenience we military men must deal with.
On this continued proposal for taking Greece, I stand firm, it cannot be allowed. So many of you who opposed my idea of invading Sicilia, now want to invade Greece. The hypocrisy of some of you makes me laugh. There was so much more to gain from Sicilia as it is closer, and the jewel of the Mediterranean trade routes. But no, many of you shot the edict down. And as a good leader, Dentatvs allowed a fair and balanced vote instead of overriding you younger senators.
If an invasion is what you want, I pray for the wives and children whom you leave widowed and orphaned on some unjust cause that you all wish to put into motion only for personal glory. You speak for yourselves not Rome."
Potocello
01-20-2009, 22:41
"Legatus Regvlvs, I understand. Men who are rats, vile rats, such as the spies you caught are an inconvenience we military men must deal with.
On this continued proposal for taking Greece, I stand firm, it cannot be allowed. So many of you who opposed my idea of invading Sicilia, now want to invade Greece. The hypocrisy of some of you makes me laugh. There was so much more to gain from Sicilia as it is closer, and the jewel of the Mediterranean trade routes. But no, many of you shot the edict down. And as a good leader, Dentatvs allowed a fair and balanced vote instead of overriding you younger senators.
If an invasion is what you want, I pray for the wives and children whom you leave widowed and orphaned on some unjust cause that you all wish to put into motion only for personal glory. You speak for yourselves not Rome."
"Tell me dictator what was just about attacking Sicilia. We would betray a very strong relationship with Carthage that need not have been broken.
You talk about the jewel of the Mediterranean trade routes. Greece will give us the same jewels PLUS the wealth and culture of the east.
It has been made clear that sending the Legio III Campania to Greece would be extremely beneficial for Roma AND Greece. How do you not see it?"
Servivs sits, adrenaline pumping from this poke at the Dictator
You fail to note, dicatator, that Greece wont be nearly as fortified as Sicily. The City of Syracuse and the Mammertimes are not easy enemies, they have been fighting eachother for years and unlike Greece, have not a reduced military. They will stay behind their walls also. The Poeni also have a very strong navy, and the war with them will take years! (29 years in fact OOC)
You speak of Rome's maidens and children. Perhaps you should look in the mirror before you judge so blindly.
navarro951
01-20-2009, 22:47
"Just? How about the Carthaginians harassing Messana. Their forces constantly scouting Rhegion for starters. When has Greece ever imposed their forces near our border. When has Makedonia treated us as a foe. Carthage's alliance with us is as strong as an ant is to my foot. You know full well when that alliance was made it was made on rocky terms that stand unfirm today."
navarro951
01-20-2009, 22:49
"I think of our women and children, so if husbands, sons, and brothers must die...they die for at leas one reason that carries truth. Greece is no enemy, cept the Epirotes, they are just a divided people whom you all have your money grubbing hands after."
The Celtic Viking
01-20-2009, 22:51
"Thank you for your forgiveness and understanding, Blasio, but I must agree with Servivs. Carthage are our allies, and we have agreements with them. It would be disgraceful of us to just throw that to the wind and break it. There is thus no hypocrisy in being against violating agreements and going to war against the allies we have and then supporting a continued war against an enemy. Yes, an enemy I say, for where I disagree with those wanting to take Sparta, is that I want to pursue Pyrrhos and take his holdings there instead. Surely you can appreciate my point without giving me names I do not deserve?"
"I think of our women and children, so if husbands, sons, and brothers must die...they die for at leas one reason that carries truth. Greece is no enemy, cept the Epirotes, they are just a divided people whom you all have your money grubbing hands after."
Carthrage is no enemy! The many navies it would take even to reach the mainland of Carthrage is unconceivable compared to Greece! My fellow tribunes and me ask for 1 legio, and yet you stand before us today moaning about the orphans and maidens, sentiments on my heart also, when you dont understand that there would be thousands more if we went through on the attack on Sicily!
Perhaps you do understand, perhaps you are bitter about your failed edict.
*Scipio finishes the last sentence quietly, the other senators strained to hear it if they did at all*
navarro951
01-20-2009, 22:58
"If it is war you want with Phyrros, that I will fully allow. If it weren't for my respect for Dentatvs while his health was failing, I would of proposed a full-scale invasion last year. But whats done is done. I have put my plan for Carthage down, I will not support attacking the Makedonians or Koinon, but I will march with any man to slit the throat of Phyrros."
SwissBarbar
01-20-2009, 22:58
Avlvs leaped to his feet and shouted
It has been made clear that sending the Legio III Campania to Greece would be extremely beneficial for Roma AND Greece. [/I]
Made clear? MADE CLEAR? I hoped you just understood why sending only one legion would be nothing but stupid. Your intransigence is outrageous and not worthy of a roman Legatvs!
We send far more than one legion and take all of Greece, or not only our soldiers will die for NOTHING, but also your so called "benefits" would go under compared with the costs keeping the city and defending it against the thousands of other non-spartian Greeks who will not just watch us taking their capital and do nothing.
Avlvs leaped to his feet and shouted
Made clear? MADE CLEAR? I hoped you just understood why sending only one legion would be nothing but stupid. Your intransigence is outrageous and not worthy of a roman Legatvs!
We send far more than one legion and take all of Greece, or not only our soldiers will die for NOTHING, but also your so called "benefits" would go under compared with the costs keeping the city and defending it against the thousands of other non-spartian Greeks who will not just watch us taking their capital and do nothing.
It is my fault that we have not made it CLEAR that we do not intend to take all of Greece. I am merely waiting for the scribes to finish writing the official proposed edict so I can hand it personally to every senator here.
(OOC we are getting the nuts and bolts on it and it should be done shortly. Please Potocello answer your forum msgs)
"If it is war you want with Phyrros, that I will fully allow. If it weren't for my respect for Dentatvs while his health was failing, I would of proposed a full-scale invasion last year. But whats done is done. I have put my plan for Carthage down, I will not support attacking the Makedonians or Koinon, but I will march with any man to slit the throat of Phyrros."
And where should we attack first in Epira? The north end or the south end? The middle maybe? The Epirotes will raise a vicious guerrila war against us. The Dalmatian coast is covered in pirates that are already good at this. They shall recall their armies from abroad and harass any city Rome captures. Our armies will have to go back and forth relieving seiges. And then what after we conquer Epira? We would have to leave a substantial garrison their to fend off any Makedonian attacks, barbarian raids, bandits on the roads.
Your plan is a shortsighted one bent on revenge. It would be costly too, the illyrian coast is not rich.
SwissBarbar
01-20-2009, 23:21
Since the second legion soon reaches its target, I have to go now. My representative shall continue for me.
(OOC: since every turn has 3 months, he will be there in time ;-) )
Since the second legion soon reaches its target, I have to go now. My representative shall continue for me.
(OOC: since every turn has 3 months, he will be there in time ;-) )
May lady fortuna look down upon you.
*Gives a roman salute*
Potocello
01-21-2009, 01:28
Avlvs leaped to his feet and shouted
Made clear? MADE CLEAR? I hoped you just understood why sending only one legion would be nothing but stupid. Your intransigence is outrageous and not worthy of a roman Legatvs!
We send far more than one legion and take all of Greece, or not only our soldiers will die for NOTHING, but also your so called "benefits" would go under compared with the costs keeping the city and defending it against the thousands of other non-spartian Greeks who will not just watch us taking their capital and do nothing.
"Avlvs have you even been listening to what has been said here?! The Greeks are WEAK! They are locked in civil war with each other, they are too preoccupied with fighting each other that they will not have the resources to start a war with us. I require only one Legio because that is all that is needed to beat these weakened people.
And how dare you say that i am not worthy of my rank, tribvnvs . Have you experienced as much as i have? Have you felt the hot blood of your foe spirt onto your face? Have you watched your own commander slain at the hands of naked, crazed maniacs?! When you are a Legatvs you may come back and make judgments, but until then hold your tongue where rank is concerned!"
navarro951
01-21-2009, 02:44
Blasio, tired from the heated debate, raises another issue...
"If there is any senator, rank will not matter for this, who wishes to be Aedile of Segesta then speak now. I will take any candidate, preferably ones who are not serving in a legio, who is willing to do the task.
Segesta is a city that is primed for boosting trade so I will require someone with expert governing ability. (OOC: Please read the rank info in the rules as to what it will require, for this time only, if you do not have the 1 management point I will grant an ancillary for it.) All applications should be sent to me personally (PM). I will consider each application and select the finest candidate."
Here is the official proposed edict draft, ratified by the main 3 people who are pushing for it. Discussion on the 6 points will continue for around another day, small changes can be made if fellow senators think there are inherent flaws in them. After the allotted time the proposal will be submitted to the dictator for a senate vote.
Notice it does not say WHY the edict is in place, just what actions it proposes. Legio 3 and its officers have complete confidence in its abilities to accomplish these tasks.
1)Send Legio III to southern Greece, below the Polis of Athens, with ships acquired from the merchant class. Legio III will land at a appropriate spot and will acquire the city's of Greece it see's fit, and if possible have the Greeks attack us when we are strategically positioned on a hill.
2)Legio III requests extra troops for garrison. Levys or skirmishers will suffice. If
Rome's treasury can not afford it at the time then disregard point 2.
3)When legio III gains control of a greek polis, it will immeditely stabilize it. Then proceed to pick a prominent citizen that is friendly to Rome out of its population. Immediate reopening of trade with Rome (OOC a client state). Taxes will be set as see's fit by the tribunes or by special command of the consul or dicatator. Levy troops will be raised as soon as possible for garrison duty to free up legionnaires.
4)All spoils will be sent back to Rome immediately. Estimated amounts are in the thousands of talents. All cash made by the sell of slaves will be the general's as per tradition (OOC historically accurate, the general got the money made from slaves). Majority of slaves will be sold in the slave markets of Taras or to the east.
5)Legio III is willing to wait until the capture of northern celtic settlements until the official order to march is given.
6) If this edict is passed. Legio 3 will proceed to forts outside of Taras to await eventual transportation to the greek mainland.
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
01-21-2009, 05:41
Tiberius rubbed his eyes with the palms of his hands and yawned. The final draft of the legislation had been put forward to the Senate and his clerks were straightening up his work area while he sat with a blank expression on his face. The debate and maneuvering had been exhausting. It seemed as if all sides were to the point of being beyond anger and impulsive outbursts of emotion and were finally willing and able to sit peacefully and exchange ideas. How it would work out in the end was up to the Fates. For now, he needed a drink. On second thought, several drinks would be better. A visit to a local courtesan afterward would be best of all. Surely, he joked to himself, combat could not be as demanding as arguing with a roomful of opinionated old men.
Potocello
01-21-2009, 06:01
Servivs too was tired. He stretched his legs out and reclined slightly. This bickering and debate had been exhausting; amusing, but exhausting. He shut is eyes, enjoying the silence and peace in the Curia. All was done, the legislation will be officially proposed soon. "I will have to make this speech" he thought to himself "to make it official." Servivs was weary from the insults thrown around the room. He would have hoped that these would not be necessary in such a debate. As he let himself doze off for a minute, he thought of his nice quiet home. His new misstress would be waiting, ready to relieve the stress from the Curia. He would enjoy this time with his misstress. Servivs' mind began to drift even further into sleep and soon he was asle---
SwissBarbar
01-21-2009, 08:37
"Avlvs have you even been listening to what has been said here?! The Greeks are WEAK! They are locked in civil war with each other, they are too preoccupied with fighting each other that they will not have the resources to start a war with us. I require only one Legio because that is all that is needed to beat these weakened people.
And how dare you say that i am not worthy of my rank, tribvnvs . Have you experienced as much as i have? Have you felt the hot blood of your foe spirt onto your face? Have you watched your own commander slain at the hands of naked, crazed maniacs?! When you are a Legatvs you may come back and make judgments, but until then hold your tongue where rank is concerned!"
Avlvs already was in front of the door, when the Legatvs spat this words towards him. He answerd sharply
Have you been ever to Greece? They fight the Makedonians, yes? Do you REALLY think the Makedonians or the Epeirotes will tolerate Roman presence in Greece? Do you? I tell you what:
THEY WOULD RATHER THROW THEIR OWN BALLS TOWARDS OUR CITYWALLS UNTIL THEY'RE SMASHED, THAN LET US HAVE ONE SINGLE INCH OF THE LAND THEY REGARD AS THEIR OWN.
The Makedonians are in war with the Koinon Hellenon, because they want their land, so they'll never leave it to us just like that. We only would unify them with the Epeirotes. If you were the great tactican and warrior you say, you would see that. Yes, I dare question your intentions, Legatvs. I say you don't seek the best for rome, but only a chance to distinguish yourself. You better profile yourself by cleaning the latrines of my family's villa, instead of sending Roman brothers to unnecessary death! Don't YOU underestimate MY skills, for warfare and honour are in my family's blood. What is in your blood? The skill to get honourable men to lose their rag, maybe. You better watch, that it's not YOUR balls one day that are smashed into our City walls.
After this very sharp speech, he listened to the proposal of Decimvs Cornelivs Scipio and comments it calmly.
Very well, Decimvs. Congratulations. Thats how a proposal should be built, even if it is a bad one. This is what I think about these points.
1)Send Legio III to southern Greece, below the Polis of Athens, with ships acquired from the merchant class. Legio III will land at a appropriate spot and will acquire the city's of Greece it see's fit, and if possible have the Greeks attack us when we are strategically positioned on a hill.
- Not Legio III is to be sent, but NEW Legions or at least Legio III without its current commander Legatvs Longvs, to prove, that its not Legatvs Longvs liability to distinguish himself, that makes him propose this. Important: Minimum TWO Legions
2)Legio III requests extra troops for garrison. Levys or skirmishers will suffice. If
Rome's treasury can not afford it at the time then disregard point 2.
- Agree with the extra tropps
3)When legio III gains control of a greek polis, it will immeditely stabilize it. Then proceed to pick a prominent citizen that is friendly to Rome out of its population. Immediate reopening of trade with Rome (OOC a client state). Taxes will be set as see's fit by the tribunes or by special command of the consul or dicatator. Levy troops will be raised as soon as possible for garrison duty to free up legionnaires.
- And while you are raising Levys the Macedonians, Epeirotes and Hellenons will send their heavy Phalangites and chop them into fish bait. I say we take Sparte, then Korinthos and then Athenai. So we have our backs free from enemies as we advance, and can defend the two straitened passages into our new lands. Possible, for we will have TWO legions there.
4)All spoils will be sent back to Rome immediately. Estimated amounts are in the thousands of talents. All cash made by the sell of slaves will be the general's as per tradition (OOC historically accurate, the general got the money made from slaves). Majority of slaves will be sold in the slave markets of Taras or to the east.
- They are, if we take all of their cities, yes. If we stick to your plan, then estimated amounts are in the thousands of Roman bodies.
5)Legio III is willing to wait until the capture of northern celtic settlements until the official order to march is given.
- And there in the north it shall stay, and defend our northern border against the Barbarians, for Legatvs Longvs is SUCH a GREAT fighter and is very experienced in fighting those Barbarians, right?
6) If this edict is passed. Legio 3 will proceed to forts outside of Taras to await eventual transportation to the greek mainland.
- You better prepare for cold winters in the north.
He turned to the senators
Senatores! I agree, we go to greece. But not in a suicide operation. Think about my words and make yourself clear, whats at stake here. Don't send our fellow Roman brothers into death, just to satisfy ONE mans greed!
With that he went out the door and rode to his Legion, hoping, that the other senatores were no fools and would see how unnecessarily dangerous this proposal was.
(OOC: Please note, that our Roman legions are not yet those tough chaps as they were in Caesars army 200 years later. They lost extremely many men against the Epeirotes, and though they won at the end, they respected Greek phalanx formation. And actually they did not know, that the AI will be stupid, and not unify against invaders ;-) )
.
Potocello
01-21-2009, 21:30
Avlvs already was in front of the door, when the Legatvs spat this words towards him. He answerd sharply
Have you been ever to Greece? They fight the Makedonians, yes? Do you REALLY think the Makedonians or the Epeirotes will tolerate Roman presence in Greece? Do you? I tell you what:
THEY WOULD RATHER THROW THEIR OWN BALLS TOWARDS OUR CITYWALLS UNTIL THEY'RE SMASHED, THAN LET US HAVE ONE SINGLE INCH OF THE LAND THEY REGARD AS THEIR OWN.
The Makedonians are in war with the Koinon Hellenon, because they want their land, so they'll never leave it to us just like that. We only would unify them with the Epeirotes. If you were the great tactican and warrior you say, you would see that. Yes, I dare question your intentions, Legatvs. I say you don't seek the best for rome, but only a chance to distinguish yourself. You better profile yourself by cleaning the latrines of my family's villa, instead of sending Roman brothers to unnecessary death! Don't YOU underestimate MY skills, for warfare and honour are in my family's blood. What is in your blood? The skill to get honourable men to lose their rag, maybe. You better watch, that it's not YOUR balls one day that are smashed into our City walls.
After this very sharp speech, he listened to the proposal of Decimvs Cornelivs Scipio and comments it calmly.
Very well, Decimvs. Congratulations. Thats how a proposal should be built, even if it is a bad one. This is what I think about these points.
1)Send Legio III to southern Greece, below the Polis of Athens, with ships acquired from the merchant class. Legio III will land at a appropriate spot and will acquire the city's of Greece it see's fit, and if possible have the Greeks attack us when we are strategically positioned on a hill.
- Not Legio III is to be sent, but NEW Legions or at least Legio III without its current commander Legatvs Longvs, to prove, that its not Legatvs Longvs liability to distinguish himself, that makes him propose this. Important: Minimum TWO Legions
2)Legio III requests extra troops for garrison. Levys or skirmishers will suffice. If
Rome's treasury can not afford it at the time then disregard point 2.
- Agree with the extra tropps
3)When legio III gains control of a greek polis, it will immeditely stabilize it. Then proceed to pick a prominent citizen that is friendly to Rome out of its population. Immediate reopening of trade with Rome (OOC a client state). Taxes will be set as see's fit by the tribunes or by special command of the consul or dicatator. Levy troops will be raised as soon as possible for garrison duty to free up legionnaires.
- And while you are raising Levys the Macedonians, Epeirotes and Hellenons will send their heavy Phalangites and chop them into fish bait. I say we take Sparte, then Korinthos and then Athenai. So we have our backs free from enemies as we advance, and can defend the two straitened passages into our new lands. Possible, for we will have TWO legions there.
4)All spoils will be sent back to Rome immediately. Estimated amounts are in the thousands of talents. All cash made by the sell of slaves will be the general's as per tradition (OOC historically accurate, the general got the money made from slaves). Majority of slaves will be sold in the slave markets of Taras or to the east.
- They are, if we take all of their cities, yes. If we stick to your plan, then estimated amounts are in the thousands of Roman bodies.
5)Legio III is willing to wait until the capture of northern celtic settlements until the official order to march is given.
- And there in the north it shall stay, and defend our northern border against the Barbarians, for Legatvs Longvs is SUCH a GREAT fighter and is very experienced in fighting those Barbarians, right?
6) If this edict is passed. Legio 3 will proceed to forts outside of Taras to await eventual transportation to the greek mainland.
- You better prepare for cold winters in the north.
He turned to the senators
Senatores! I agree, we go to greece. But not in a suicide operation. Think about my words and make yourself clear, whats at stake here. Don't send our fellow Roman brothers into death, just to satisfy ONE mans greed!
With that he went out the door and rode to his Legion, hoping, that the other senatores were no fools and would see how unnecessarily dangerous this proposal was.
(OOC: Please note, that our Roman legions are not yet those tough chaps as they were in Caesars army 200 years later. They lost extremely many men against the Epeirotes, and though they won at the end, they respected Greek phalanx formation. And actually they did not know, that the AI will be stupid, and not unify against invaders ;-) )
.
"Avlvs I find your lack of respect disgusting not worthy of even a Roman tribvnvs! You criticize my leadership and yet you have never experienced it. You speak of your FAMILY'S warfare and honor but how come i do not see yours? You vile piece of pig shit, you have not proven yourself on the battlefield for if you had, you would be able to speak to me eye to eye as a legatvs. I have lost all respect for you and i am ashamed that you are even called Roman. he mumbles under his breath so only few can hear him. Perhaps the Greeks were onto something by ostracizing people, I would surely cast my vote for this...child.
I find it despicable that us civilized Romans have sunk to such extremes as this. The order and respect of this Curia has gone right out the window. The Legio III Campania has made a simple proposition and instead of discussing it like the noble Romans we are, we have all trashed our honor with these insults. How would the rest of the world feel if they saw us in this pitiful state? We would be a Joke! I will lose faith in our political system if this is the way the Curia continues to operate."
Servivs sat down with fiery fury in his eyes. He wished he had his gladius to run this man through.
Legatus Nero has been in and out of the Curia for the better part of a day now. There has been a heated argument regarding the future plan for Hellas-- the Senate has decisively split between two "factions"... those (including many veterans) who are opposed to such early incursions on Greek lands, and those (including many naive young senators) who wish to march upon Sparte itself. He remains seated when he speaks in his signature whimsical, satirical style to the ever fiery Servivs Sempronivs Longvs
Oh, sit down you old donkey. What have you done so recently as to warrant such a vile mouth? Sit on your fat ass all day and order people around? Under the leadership of Legatus Cotta, the first army of the two original legions have been fighting a campaign so your legion could have enough coin to even exist. You make these petty threats to senators who oppose your precious idea of a grand campaign yet are utterly shocked when the same senator disagrees with your dream.
You speak of going to war as though your one legion of men who have most likely never seen combat shall conquer all of the arche that Alexandros once held. What you don't realize in your naive haste is that mother Roma can not begin to afford an oversea campaign against a world power. The greeks have long lost the glory they once had during the homeric epics, but these are not a group of uncivilized spear-throwing sheep herders either. Your own selfishness is the problem, my friend. You wish to leave as soon as possible, jealous of Legio I and II's glorious victories in the north and wishing to capture the fame for yourselves. I am loyal to the Repbulic and wish every Roman honor and glory on the battlefield, but when leaders are so childish to throw a temper tantrum because they must wait but a few years to go to war, I can only hang my head in shame.
Do not question our great Dictator in his plans, our greatest leader Cotta in his forethoughts, or even the youngest senator in his own doubt of your grand scheme. I hope you stand atop Mt. Olympia itself and slay that incestuous pig of a god Hercules himself some day... but it shall not be tomorrow my friend. Wait patiently, then capture glory and be remembered in the history books as Servius Sempronius Longus, the great scourge of Hellas. If you do not, you will be remembered in history as that damned fool of a dead general.
Potocello
01-22-2009, 00:03
"Good Senator Nero, the whole point of the Curia is to decide on such matters as these. We vote, and discuss our
next actions and if asked to, the Legio III will follow Roma loyaly, to wherever she may send us.
You tell me that i wish to leave as soon as possible. You tell me that i question Cotta when he is not here to speak.
And yet, i do not remember ever doing such things, you are putting words in my mouth senator. You also question my
motives saying that I am lusting for glory. But what of Cotta and Regulus? Are their intentions so pure? It seems you
all think that i must go to Greece when this is not so. I will gladly go wherever you vote to send me. I also find
it interesting that you insult my anger at Avlvs. Were you listening to what he had said? You mock me with
your indescisions, is it my fault that i am stuck in Capua? I don't think so, I would much rather be fighting
at the side of the Legios I and II or in Greece.
As was said by Scipio, this proposal is subject to change, so if you feel that I would personally gain too much from it,
change it. If you want to wait, change it. If you want to have support from the Legios I and II,
change it. It is the privilage of every Roman to do so."
Servivs sat, exhausted from this topic it had dragged on for too long...
Well Servius, if you claim you represent Legio III and their wishes then why don't you simply tell your men what I told you. Do not campaign so aggressively for orders into Greece when you say you don't mind where you go, as it insults us Senators who ere on the side of logic. You complain of being in command of a Legion, and then insult the Romans under your rank. It is sad to see you are displeased with what is a once in a lifetime opportunity.
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
01-22-2009, 07:15
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus had heard enough. This blasphemous son of a harlot Nero had extended the final insult against Legatus Longus and all of Legio III Campania. His constant twisting of words and random, inane cursings towards the heavens had on more than one occasion caused more than one senator to turn to his neighbor and ask, "Is this man mad or practicing for the theatre?" to which, "Perhaps Iocasta bore a second son?" was often the reply.
"I shall stand for these insults no longer. I hereby vow that whenever Legatus Nero speaks in this chamber, I and a bloc of fellow senatores who share a disdain for such affrontery to common decency shall turn our backs upon him and abstain from voting for any legislation proposed by him 'till such time as a public apology be uttered by him towards Legatus Longus and the entirety of Legio III Campania. Shall he continue to abuse the privilege of speaking as a member of this chamber I shall push a referendum to shame him with a nota censoria.
"He glorifies our dictator as one would a king! He suckles at the proverbial teat of greatness by pandering to the fancies of Legatus Cotta, wishing to be thrown scraps from the table should he beg, heel, and fetch! And Nero demands that all submit to his skewed interpretation of reality that Greece is an impossible target but that it be done in the manner he suggests! I say that if Nero desires to rule Roma himself, does it follow that we wish to be slaves? While you men may have higher rank in the field, we are all, so far, equal in the Curia. Speak not to me of how many bodies you have slain if you cannot do so as a Roman."
navarro951
01-22-2009, 07:34
"Tribunus...Blasio replies, I say this not in a position of power, but in trying to keep this senate together. Political debate and division is one thing, but to ask us here to cast out a legatus whom, may be a bit cocky, but has served Roma indeed is preposterous. There will come a time, as we all have learned, that you too will demand proper respect as to the rank you have been endowed. For now though you must know your place. Not that it is last, but it is subordinate.
To the good men of this senate, I ask that you disregard this notion to simply ignore Legatus Nero. Continue your debate, as you have demonstrated yourselves to be wise in defending you opinions on both sides.
Also, this constant speak of Legatus Cotta and his rumored power hunger, or whatever it is some of you have against him, I ask that it also cease. Right now men like him and his tribunes, and Legatus Regvlvs and his tribunes, are performing the highest honor of expanding our good influence and rule upon barbarian an independent alike.
So please, debate like sentors, do not be at each others throats like dogs."
SwissBarbar
01-22-2009, 09:34
Lvcvllvs, a senator loyal to the Aemilii and representative of Avlvs, raised. He was older than the Aemilii, and not such an impassioned speaker, but still he could not hold back his tongue.
Appivs Clavdivs Nero is right. Legatvs Longvs is too inpatient and seeks only his own glory. But in this Curia still only a Legatvs or a man of higher rank can propose an edict or amendement, and still it was a Tribvnvs that proposed YOUR edict, Longvs.
Either you are not man enough to do such things yourself or you just wilfully pass over the holy laws of this Senate! How far will you go? Maybe its YOU, who wants to be king one day? However, I do question now .... are you the right man in the right place?
He sat down, and whispered something to another senator, who stood up and went away.
SwissBarbar
01-22-2009, 11:41
A messenger came in, and whispered something in Lvcvllvs' ears. He raised again.
Senatores, I add one more criterion that has to be considered. Carthage made peace with Epeiros. This not only means, that Epeiros will be able to raise more funds if we invaded Hellenic territory, but also the fact that Carthage declares peace with our enemies makes me feel extremely distrustful. Carthaginian scouts have been discovered sailing near our shores. If we invaded Greece, we most likely could not count on their support trough trade. Today ally, tomorrow maybe foe? We don't know.
For this threat is real, we MUST be swift and strike hard IF we went to Greece, in order not to let them even find the time to ask Carthage for help and prepare defending themselves.
So again, in the name of the Gods, I beseech you: If we went greecewards, let us send at least TWO legions and take - in this chronological order - Sparte, Korinthos, Athenai and Chalkis, and then install defend lines along the isthmus of Attike between Athenai and Demetrias and the strait between Peleponnesos and Aitolia, that easily could be traversed by an army.
If we secured these strategically most important points, we could hold all those cities with no further problems!
He added, with a deep, strident and ferocious voice and dramatically gesticulating:
If we'd send only one legion, the sound of bemouring wifes, fathers, mothers and children will be in the air over Roma, for no single man would return from this suicide operation! Looking upward and even more dramatical he said: May the Gods in their dark sense of humour never let our wisdom fail and make such a cataclysmal decision.
With that he took a seat again.
Would Avlvs second the proposal if his legion (Whatever that legion is, cant remember) went with legio III? The document is not set in stone, yet, there is still time to revise it so it can be agreeable to all senators.
SwissBarbar
01-22-2009, 14:14
WHICH Legion is up to the Legati, as a Tribvnvs Avlvs will not propose what Legions should go. We need at least 2 Legions in Italy, one in the North and one in reserve, before we go, so maybe we should (be able to) recruit one more Legion who can accompany Legio III.
But this is up to the Legati of the Legions.
WHICH Legion is up to the Legati, as a Tribvnvs Avlvs will not propose what Legions should go. We need at least 2 Legions in Italy, one in the North and one in reserve, before we go, so maybe we should (be able to) recruit one more Legion who can accompany Legio III.
But this is up to the Legati of the Legions.
I was just asking, no need to get yelling like a old samnite lady. I hear that the dictator wants to recruit his imperial legion anyway. Perhaps the Legati could send II and III, keep the Ist in reserve, they deserve a rest after they take the settlement up north. Then recruit his legion from the spoils we send back from Greece.
Thoughts? Im trying to compromise here.
SwissBarbar
01-22-2009, 14:32
You must have a very sensitive ear, since I did not yell at all ,my friend.
You must have a very sensitive ear, since I did not yell at all ,my friend.
(OOC you used caps. Same thing)
SwissBarbar
01-22-2009, 14:51
(OOC: Nope, if I yell, i'll write "And he yelled at the bastard: And then the text in bold or caps" ;-) ONE OR TWO (like this) Words in Caps mean he only that he points that out. Thats how I did it in every post. )
Lvcvllvs stood up and added
Also Legio II is at war in the north, maybe we should consider sending the new legion and Legio III. Fresh troops. But as I said.... its up to the Legati.
(OOC: Nope, if I yell, i'll write "And he yelled at the bastard: And then the text in bold or caps" ;-) ONE OR TWO (like this) Words in Caps mean he only that he points that out. Thats how I did it in every post. )
Lvcvllvs stood up and added
Also Legio II is at war in the north, maybe we should consider sending the new legion and Legio III. Fresh troops. But as I said.... its up to the Legati.
(OOC Iv been using forums since I was 11 years old, when you use caps it means your yelling. This is pretty much universal)
I dont see how the Roman treasury could handle a extra legion. Though we do need to work something out before long. Perhaps make multiple proposals and see which one passes?
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
01-22-2009, 15:22
"Lucullus speaks soundly in regards to Carthago and a course of cities to attack. Perhaps he and Aulus Mamercus should switch roles as speaker and messenger. I accept the changes proposed by him, as it recognizes the change in the political winds that has come with the Carthaginian storm alinging themselves with the Epirote Greeks. However, Lucullus, you do not know the mind of Legatus Longus. You are overly loyal to one family, who in turn, is overly loyal to another man. You show us all your colors by coming out into the open to attack Sevius' manhood and position in the legions.
"I remind you all that Servius Longus has fought in battle and has been weighed, measured, and found fit. This aging senator Lucullus who has not served with the legions one day, or we would know his name and rank without hesitation, seeks to sow discord as is the popular thing to do amongst the Aemili and those they serve in 'secret'. Hear not his insults, lest you hear the ravings of a mad man."
SwissBarbar
01-22-2009, 15:23
(OOC: Sorry if it was unclear. I handle it that way, i thoug that was clear since I did it in my old posts too. I mean, why should I yell 1 word and then continue normally)
Yes, i agree that our treasury could be much better. With the new legion, I meant the Imperial Legion you mentioned. Such an Imperial Legion should not consist of fledgelings, they need battlepractice. Should be veterans! This would be a great occasion to ensure that they are real badasses - if I may say so. I'm sure you would agree, that we killed two birds with one stone by doing it that way.
As for the treasury. When Massalia or Mediolanum AND Patavium are under our command, we should earn JUST enough for one more Legion. Therefore the task in Greece MUST suceed. If it does, we will have enough Mnai for 5 more Legions.
everyone
01-22-2009, 15:23
Losing his temper after a few hours of listening to senseless debate and argument, Cicero shot up from his seat, pounding the desk in front of him; bellowing,
"Bah! is everything 'up to the Legati'? If so, why are you even proposing it should be done, when it need not! Also if I may remind you, only the dictator decides the target of the Legions, not the Legatus who leads it!"
"As for your 'edict', Decimus Cornelius Scipio, I find it to be a load of rubbish! Why attack Athens? why make war with the Koinon Hellenon? have they insulted our envoys? have they cut off trade with us? have they attacked our allies? I don't see the reason why should the Koinon be invaded, if we are to make our presence more known in Greece, why should we make new enemies there?"
"Also, that 'strategy' which some intend to invade Greece with is also completely invalid! Do you know how long the campaigns to unify the north and south of Italia took? it took 5 years, starting with the taking of Taras! how fast do you think we would take to capture those regions you proposed? a year? with a single legion, unwisely led? without a constant supply of reinforcements? your proposed campaign is doomed to fail!"
Cicero calms himself down and says something resembling "Bah! fools!" before taking his seat, and preparing a more ferocious rebuttal at the next person who rebuts him
OOC edit: gah! TTCM and swissbarbar posted before I completed this!
SwissBarbar
01-22-2009, 15:27
And may I remind you, that the Legati "decide" because a Tribunus may not make a proposal, but he may VOTE, and therefore not the Dictator says where the Legion goes, but the Senate. This is a Republic, not a Kingdom, never forget that!
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus , I don't understand your offense, since I'm trying to cooperate and find a solution? Do you think 2 tiny battles make a your Legatus a great hero and beyond question? How dare you tell me, I did never serve in the Army? Not everyone did here serve as a high officer, yes, but I was a soldier too when I was young.
everyone
01-22-2009, 15:29
May I remind you, as stated in our Republic's charter:
Dictators will decide who commands it, where it is to move (if at all), and whom to attack.
Also what you had stated earlier about Carthage's ceasefire with Epirus is nearly invalid; for the past 8 years, has any battle, or skirmish happened between both nations? that ceasefire was merely a delayed declaration to an already-concluded war; if we were to attack Epirus now, it would have made no difference to that when we attacked them a month, or a year ago.
SwissBarbar
01-22-2009, 15:35
So why do we even have a curia? Are we clowns that vote for unimportant stuff, but business of war ist only upon the king? eh... dictator? OURAGEOUS (<---- yelled)
everyone
01-22-2009, 15:46
What? do you expect the commander to be given the freedom to move his legion wherever he pleases? The legion doesn't belong to him, he has been given the ability to lead it in battle and on campaign according to instructions, not to take the legion on an ill-conceived campaign and eventually have it destroyed.
SwissBarbar
01-22-2009, 15:50
(OOC: and how play we civil war, if the legions do not belong to the commander? do we have to wait til the marian reform, where the legions were bound to the commander?)
Thats why we VOTE where the legions should go.
Extract from a letter, addressed to the Senate from Legatus Cotta.
...for my return to Roma. I intend to oversee the complete subjigation of this kingdom, the acquiring of the legions food supplies and the last exports of slaves and spoils before returning to Roma in the Spring. I intend to distribute my portion of the wealth to the plebs of Roma, that they may benefit from the victory their men have won this day. I extend my complete apprasial to my two tribunes, Caivs and Avlvs Aemilii, for their outstanding skill, bravery and leadership in the siege. But this victory belongs to the men of the legion; the blood spilt this day will forever stain the earth beneath the city red, and never shall these fallen heroes be forgotten. Those fortunate survivors shall rejoice in their victory, and will mourn our fallen brothers.
I also require an immediate garrison force-the kingdom is not yet secure, and those who remain spark trouble and riots whenever possible. More force needs to be shown in order to bring these people fully to heel.
As stated, I will return to Roma in the spring, and will be attending the Curia meetings once more. My aides and contacts have kept me well informed of the Curia dealings, and I intend to make sure further splits in the Curia do not happen....
Blah blah blah...it continues...
SwissBarbar
01-22-2009, 20:22
Lvcvllvs jumped on his feet Hooray! Long live the Roman Republic!
Potocello
01-22-2009, 21:31
"Ah yes, Cotta's presence has been missed here, it will be nice to have him back.
As it pains me to say, I must agree with Avlvs. This is a republic we have the Curia to vote on Roma's next actions as loyal citizens. If we are to still call ourselves the Roman republic, some power must be taken away from the Dictator. I mean, what was the whole point of this debate about Greece if in the end, the Dictator decides where we go? For that matter, what is the point of this Curia? This system? An amendment must be made that limits the power of the Dictator for this is becoming a monarchy, not a republic.
Avlvs I am glad that you are concerned with this, regardless of our past differences."
Cotta walks into the Curia unannounced, as was his style. It took a moment or two for the Senators to notice, then rise from their seats, as was the custom for those rewarded the Corona Civica. A chorus of applause echoed around Curia walls for Cotta's victory. At his side walks Caivs and Avlvs Aemilus, and all three take their seats.
Thank you, Senators. Patavium has been captured, and the blood thirsty king lies dead. The north is far safer now.
In context of the decisions of the Dictatorship, I think it is now dangerous to not give up at least some of the Dictatorial powers, at least until an emergency emerges. I am in support of having a figure head of the Senate, to gather the decisions and put them into effect. Every gathering needs a leader. But I also suport the idea that the Senate exists for a reason, and should hold real power, not be for simply humouring or humbling the position of Dictator.
I think a Dictator should be nominated for emergency times, when we cannot afford to bicker in the Senate. I am however a supporter of Blasio, I believe him to be a strong and influential character that has been tried and tested. He has made mistakes, though havent we all, being only as we are, human?
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
01-22-2009, 21:46
Tiberius raises an eyebrow while leaning back in the seat at his desk
"Long life to the Res Publica indeed, Lucullus. Yet from the letter sent by our victorious Legatus, he sounds quite ready to end the Res Publica and install himself as king. As he stated himself, he intends 'to make sure further splits in the Curia do not happen....'. How can one do that but through force? Perhaps, as stated in the beginning of the letter itself we see his true, thinly veiled intentions, ' I intend to oversee the complete subjigation of this kingdom'. Does he refer so nobly to the areas around Patavium, or does he secretly mean Roma itself?
"I say too much power is invested in this one man. Let him stay in Roma while others command his legion. While Legatus Cotta may indeed be pure in heart - as pure an any mortal may be - all men are corrupted over time, as familiarity with giving orders breeds contempt for accepting them. It is for the good of the Res Publica that Legatus Cotta be recalled indefinitely."
EDIT: to account for Cotta walking in before I submitted my post! :-)
Slightly surprised, Tiberius stands and turns to face Cotta.
"Ahh Legatus, praise and salutations to you. We are blessed by the gods for your safe return. Surely your men deserve a Triumphus! I must say that you have read my very thoughts in suggesting that the Dictator surrender some authority to us Senatores. Perhaps you, as well, may lead by example and surrender some authority yourself? I pray, stay in Roma a while and allow others to gain experience in battle. You have been away from home for so long that surely your house forgets your face. We would not want so noble a Roman to succumb to the barbarous nature of the very people he conquers should he remain exposed to their lifestyles too long."
As eyes turn towards Cotta, attempting to guess his reaction, he simply stands, looking around the Senate.
Woe to victorious Generals of Rome, if this is how success is celebrated.
SwissBarbar
01-22-2009, 21:53
Avlvs spoke: Don't mind him, he sees a potential king in everyone
Cotta chuckles along with the rest of the Senators. Marcellus and his friends simply stare coldy at the three of them
Potocello
01-22-2009, 22:17
"Senators, as you all know, Carthage has been camped out on our borders for quite some time. They have made an
alliance with the vile Epeiros and they spy on us with their ships. Although i have been pushing for an invasion of Greece,
I am concerned with their increasing presence around our territories and their alliances with our enemies. What are your
thoughts on this issue? Are you as concerned as I am? If Carthage attacks us, I will gladly take the Legio III against
them and will trash this propsal to attack Greece.
What say you, senators?"
SwissBarbar
01-22-2009, 22:28
"Ask Tribunus Tiberius Claudius Marcellus, he gave an answer to that, when my friend and representative Lvcvllvs also was as concerned as you."
navarro951
01-23-2009, 00:06
"Legatus Cotta is now Dux Cotta, congratulations!"
Potocello
01-23-2009, 00:08
"Congradulations Dux Cotta, you deserve it."
SwissBarbar
01-23-2009, 00:17
"I agree with Legatvs Longvs, you really do deserve it!" Avlvs raised and applauded
Ave DUX Cotta, I look forward to many more great things from you.
navarro951
01-23-2009, 00:58
"Good men of the senate, have I ever once imposed myself on you? I simply believe my self as a figure head here. Rightly delegated by Dentatvs himself. I believe in nothing but the senate and Roma. I have allowed debate. I argued my point, never once did I shut anyone up to an opinion. Never once did I say that you argument is done now! The reason our charter demands that I control where legions go is exactly the reason Cicero explained. I cannot allow our legions, which are very expensive, to wander around obviously making war in what ever path it chooses. And as this curia divides itself and we do nothing but bicker on useless arguments, it would take ages for us to decide where we shall move legions or whom is in command. It would be useless."
Completely frustrated, Blasio eyes the curia.
"Good men of the senate, have I ever once imposed myself on you? I simply believe my self as a figure head here. Rightly delegated by Dentatvs himself. I believe in nothing but the senate and Roma. I have allowed debate. I argued my point, never once did I shut anyone up to an opinion. Never once did I say that you argument is done now! The reason our charter demands that I control where legions go is exactly the reason Cicero explained. I cannot allow our legions, which are very expensive, to wander around obviously making war in what ever path it chooses. And as this curia divides itself and we do nothing but bicker on useless arguments, it would take ages for us to decide where we shall move legions or whom is in command. It would be useless."
Completely frustrated, Blasio eyes the curia.
Scipio eyes him back, unfaltering.
Or it would merely take a vote.
*Scipio takes his seat. Obviosly exhausted. His education ended years ago yet hes stuck in Rome, wasting his time because the senators wont send Rome's legions abroad. Why recruit them then? Shouldnt they be at home, farming their fields and making babies, then in the drilling fields? What kind of nation recruits armies then keeps them at home? Scipio decides to relax his throat, and start making friends and alliances to get his rank above a mere legatus. First he needs to get out of this city though.*
SwissBarbar
01-23-2009, 08:16
Blasio, no one doubts your heart, but this is a republic, it's far too dangerous if only 1 man has the power to move the armies wherever he chooses to. How do I know - when you die one day at high age - your heir won't be an enemy of mine? Every other senator must ask himself the same question.
The senate's job is to debate and to vote. We could say, the Dictator is in Charge over the defense. If our homeland is attacked, then he decides quickly what do to. As for war, which needs good preparation anyway, the senate needs to decide! With a vote of course, thats just as quick. Everyone rises his hand, and it's done.
navarro951
01-23-2009, 08:26
"This i can agree on, in offensives, the senate can decide targets for attack"
Thank you for your delegation of my promotion. I will continue to serve Roma loyally in the best way I know how; through her legion's might.
To be honest, I believe the Senate has had say in where the legions have been moving to so far. It is, however, up to the commander of the legion to decide how to get there, and to some extent how long to take. It has merely been Blasio's, and his fathers, job to make sure this happens, to carry out the Senate's votes. Blasio and Cicero are simply part of the Senate, just like the rest of us. We're all equal, though others simply have different jobs to do.
As for the future of Rome's conquests, I do have my ideas and opinions, though I believe the north must be secured before we can think of sending any legions anywhere else. Patavium is captured, though not yet secured. Massilia is divided in talks of our alliance, and it may take a show of strength to convince them. The Celts still control a large part of the Po plains, and it is my intention to carry out the full campaign in the north, as decided by the Senate, to unify Italia under Roma. This requires capturing Mediolanium, and the consequent garrisoning of the north by at least one legion, in case our neigbours past the Alps have any ideas of their own.
The Celtic Viking
01-23-2009, 14:40
Pvblivs, who had been quiet for a long time while thinking for himself, rose to speak - and was almost surprised himself, as he did so nearly automatically. He cleared his throat a little and turned towards Cotta.
"If we are all indeed equal, as you say, then why does he call himself "dictator"? Why does he act like one? Why does he name an heir, like his father did, who will become the new dictator once he dies? Why is it once again his own son? I'll tell you why: because we are not equal. We are, in fact, no longer a republic, for we have a new king on the throne."
Let us not get hostile, gentlemen. I am sure that Blasio will gladly give back some of his powers to the Senate, while we all remain civil and do not damage anyone's reputation.
The Celtic Viking
01-23-2009, 15:24
""Damage anyone's reputation"?! By pointing out the facts?" Pvblivs laughs. "So if I committed a crime right here in front of all of you in the senate", Pvblivs looked around as he said it, "you would be wrong to "damage my reputation" by calling me a criminal? My dear Cotta, what I'm saying is that the moment Blasio accepted the position of dictator instead of reforming this back to a republic, he damaged his own reputation. I am just doing my duty as a senator to remove the blinkers other senators so gladly seem to wear."
So what do you propose, Legatus? What do you wish Blasio and Cicero to do now? How will they stand in the future of the Republic?
The Celtic Viking
01-23-2009, 15:48
"I would at first suggest that Blasio renounce the title of dictator, and not only in name but in action as well. There shall be no difference between him and the rest of us, we shall truly be equals. Finances and military matters should not be the province of the king and his prince, but by the two senators that the senate elects through regular votes, and the senate should be able to impeach either of those at any time they choose.
It is quite simple what I'm asking of them: to step off the throne, and never set foot on it again. I want them to reinstall our old Res Publica."
Pvblivs sighs rather loudly.
"But if you'll excuse me, I have to leave for my army now. I have lingered here far too long already, and I've said my piece. I hope that when I come back, this will have been done."
Pvblivs storms out the Curia.
Cotta calls after his retreating form.
I see your point, but what will happen to the practicallity that the Dictatorship offers us? The figurehead of which the republic, the man who does not make the decisions by himself, but carries them out. Perhaps we need to keep the postion of the dictatorship, though obviously change some of his powers, and make him the Senate clerk or secretary, that physically makes sure the actions proposed by the Senate are carried out.
(OOC: Kind of like the Speaker in the House of Commons, and whatever the American equivalent is...we're going to need someone to speal to, if you like, and someone to carry out the decisions we make.)
The Celtic Viking
01-23-2009, 16:11
Pvblivs, slightly annoyed, runs one hand across his head.
"I've already addressed that. There would be two senators appointed by the senate itself at each meeting, who would carry them out and answer directly to the senate. If the senate feels that either of them is mistreating his position, isn't doing his job or have simply lost their trust in him, they should at any time be able to impeach him and elect a new one to take his place for the remainder of the term.
Unless there is anything else, I must leave."
Can't the Consuls do such a thing, Legatus? The consuls change every two and a half years (12 turns), meaning they would hold office in the Senate long enough to carry out the meetings and make the necessary changes.
The Celtic Viking
01-23-2009, 16:48
"Yes, but at this point they're not elected, as the law calls for. They're illegally appointed by the king. This must of course change, and the rule that you must be at least Dux must be removed, since we must have options to choose from. That too is broken as it is anyway."
Possibly, though these thought require the accused to be in our company. I ask that we at least wait until Blasio arrives for us to begin denouncing him as an enemy of the state.
The Celtic Viking
01-23-2009, 16:57
Pvblivs laughs once again. "Of course!" He continues to laugh, then finally takes a break. "Faithfully you need the king to tell you he's a monarch before you realize it. Have fun getting an honest answer from him!" Laughing even more, Pvblivs salutes and leaves the Curia again.
Thank you for your agreement, Legatus. I wish you the best of luck in your negotations with the Massilians.
*Scipio eyes the curia curiosly. He was making these arguements years ago. Perhaps these neo-rebels will decide to attack Greece sooner or later, if history repeats itself*
navarro951
01-24-2009, 00:04
"Yes, but at this point they're not elected, as the law calls for. They're illegally appointed by the king. This must of course change, and the rule that you must be at least Dux must be removed, since we must have options to choose from. That too is broken as it is anyway."
Blasio replies, Legatus, the only reason the consuls have been appointed is that no one is of rank able to become a consul. However, do not worry, for I am proposing a change in law next session allowing even legatus to run for the job. At that session, I will also step down as dictator and we will elect two new consuls. And as the rules already state, yes they can be impeached.
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
01-24-2009, 00:40
Tiberius stand and applauds slowly and deliberately, nodding to both Tribunus Scipio and Legatus Longus.
"Dictator Blasio, it is good of you to renounce these powers in due course. We understand that when the Res Publica was young we had not enough experienced men to govern her; but with each passing year those numbers are growing. I support Legatus Regulus' statements and your acquiesence."
navarro951
01-24-2009, 00:46
"Thank you, and new plans have been drawn up already has to how things will be run here in Rome which will be unveiled in 263 at the Congressional Council."
Potocello
01-24-2009, 03:37
Servivs joins Tiberivs in applause for Blasio.
"Dictator, I respect your decision to return some of these powers to the Senate. It is an action truly worthy of an honorable Roman such as yourself. My respect for you has grown tremendously, and i am eager to serve with you further in the Roman republic."
navarro951
01-24-2009, 05:37
"Thank you Legatus Longvs, I too believe in the Republic."
navarro951
01-24-2009, 05:46
"On another note, while I support securing the north, there has been a bit of talk about taking the Gallic city of Mediolanium. For my remaining time as dictator, I do not wish to allow an attack on their lands. The barbarians, as they are nothing more, have still been civilized enough to honor the truce we have with them.
However, I do ask that support here be rallied for an attack on Sicilia. Call me a hypocrite if you will, but they have blatantly harrassed Messana with their forces and their truce should not be upheld any longer as it disgraces us, and we now know they have been spying on our business in Rhegion."
Potocello
01-24-2009, 06:27
"Blasio, I must agree with you. Recently, the Carthaginians have essentially violated our alliance with their most recent military presence in our territory. Perhaps a preemptive strike would not be such a bad idea, as Blasio suggests. I am in favor of an attack on Sicilia now, and i am against more fighting in the north. It is too costly at this point in time, and as Blasio says, they have not violated the truce, so let's not violate it instead. Turning our attention to the south would be best right now, as of Carthage's most recent maneuvers."
Cotta stands.
Gentlemen, although I personally am in favour of completing subjication of the entire north, I suppose I will bow down to what seems to be a majorityive (?) feeling among the senators. We have taken Patavium, and have secured an alliance with Massilia; that is enough for now. However, the enemy is still numerous enough to worry me. I suggest we post a legion in the north for protection against these Celts, lest they see that these newly conquered territories are no longer stoutly defended, and decide to have a quick shot at them.
As for Carthage, I think it's a big leap to just declare war on them with no warning. I suggest sending a diplomat to the Carthaginians on Sicily, demanding that they remove their troops from Messana territory, on pain of cancelling our alliance. Should they not comply, I regret it may be necessary to show them our threats are real.
(OOC: Send a diplomat to Lilybaeam (sp), leave him there for a turn or so as if he was in talks with them, and then if the Carthaginian force has not retreated, then cancel our alliance with them using the diplomat. The turn after that, (so once the alliance canelling has taken effect) we can begin to invade Sicily-though I suggest attacking the Carthaginian force first, before thinking about taking cities.
SwissBarbar
01-24-2009, 14:06
Avlvs rised
We should not just go to war with Carthage without diplomatic negotiations, I agree with Dux Cotta. A good part of our wealth is brought by Carthaginian trading ships. A war on Sicily would be long and brutal. And we'd need to build up a naval fleet that can match theirs, or they would pillage our coasts.
(OOC: I agree with Bean, and furthermore I'd suggest, when the first Punic war is brought upon us, we RP it also by creating ships. I suggest again: IF we intend to attack Carthage in Afrika in remote future, our ships need to win at least 3 naval battles against the Carthaginians.)
(OOC I agree with barber's roleplay suggestoin)
The Celtic Viking
01-25-2009, 13:28
A message is brought into the Curia, and is read out loud for the senate.
To the senate,
As I closed in to Massalia I was attacked by some rebel scum, who apparently did not approve of our impending alliance with the city. They were soundly defeated, and upon entering the city, I decided to relocate all people in power, big or small, who still opposed our deal. It was absolutely necessary to do so, for there were quite a lot of them, and the only other option would have been an outright massacre - and I do not think that would look right in the eyes of our new allies. Failing to do either of them would surely have meant more people taking to arms against us in staunch and foolish opposition. The majority, however, were for the alliance and they have greeted me and my soldiers with open arms.
For now I suggest that I and Legio I Apvlia stays in Massalia to keep the city safe from the surrounding barbarians, as well as internal enemies whom we may not have been able root out, and until further orders are issued, this is what I will do.
With glory and honour for Rome!
Yours truly,
Pvblivs Atilivs Regvlvs
Legatvs and commander of Legio I Apvlia
everyone
01-25-2009, 13:34
Cicero begins writing a message as a reply to Regulus' letter
"Dear Legatus,
my apologies, I had received news of your decision late, and therefore have already begun transporting some depleted units over to the nearest available city to re-equip and re-supply.
However a horseman dispatched from Roma could reach the captain temporarily in charge of the depleted force quickly enough to notify him to return to massilia and await reinforcements to arrive
Consul Cicero"
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
01-25-2009, 17:42
"What of the Italic rebels in Kalabria? Send forth Legio III Campania to deal with them as we are the furthest south at this time."
Senators, it is time to decide where to send our armies next.
SwissBarbar
01-25-2009, 20:24
Yes it is.
navarro951
01-25-2009, 22:39
(OOC: Before these orders are carried out, I will use the rebels to kill off one of the RGBS whose gotten too old.)
"Legio III, march in force against the rebels, it will be easy hunting to raise the moral of your men who may be getting tired of waiting. Forgive me, but at the moment we have not had a place to send them. The next congressional sessions is only four seasons from now, I think we can wait till new objectives are brought up. For now we can continue to discuss this Carthage issue."
(OOC: I agree with the diplomat idea for attacking Carthage)
Cotta stands, and clears his throat, ready for a lengthy speech.
I agree that Legio III should be used to quell these rebels. My sources tell me they are a band of Samnites that have chosen to bring their well known disagreements with Roma into the military arena. However, there is no doubt in my mind that any Roman force need worry about a few petty mountain boys that don't know when they have been beaten. Though, of course, if the Legate of the Legio III thinks he needs an entire legion to put them in their place, so be it.
Let us move on to future matters of state, gentlemen. The Senate, as always, seems to be split down the middle, the phrase used in it's most lose form anyhow. We still harbour grievances against Pyhross in Epirus, and of course we can all see some benefits from sending good men to their deaths in a foreign land for a simple purpose of revenge. Who couldn't? But there is also the delegation against the maritime empire of Carthage, of which many of the Senate argue that we should declare national war upon for disregarding our treaty made some years ago. This is, of course, where the loose use of the phrase 'Down the middle' derives. It is well known that some Senators who voted for a war with Carthage last congressional session also wanted a war with Epirus. Aside from feelings of inactivity, power lust, or a true patriotic but rather short-sighted view that Roma can afford multiple foreign wars against several existing or potential allies, I can see no good reason why these certain figures expressed their views this way. We must choose one path to follow, regardless of whether it may be the 'right' one; we must strive to better ourselves for the good of the Republic, so that we may strengthen our truest power-belief in Roma and the Republic for which it stands.
And so, this brings us to a renewal of the debate of who to go to war with. I think we can all agree on at least one issue. This is a simple choice; Epirus, or Carthage.
For the moment, I stand as first speaker, thus I will conduct myself in the manner of said position and for now give both sides of each argument, so that every Senator can decide for himself who Roma makes war with next.
First of all, however, let me sum up our militaristic and economic standing. We have at this present moment in time, three active legions in service. Legio I Apulia is stationed in Massilia, and may be required to stay for perhaps the rest of this year, possibly longer. Legio II Latium is stationed in Patavium, and will be ready to deploy anywhere within the Republic within a matter of weeks. Legio III Capua is marching south to dispatch a few farmers of their lives and freedom in Kalabria. It is therefore plain to see our military strength is, for the moment at least, spread out across the Republic.
Our economy is the richest it has been in history, with gold literally flowing into our coffers daily. We do have enough to create a fourth legion should the Senate see fit. However, that is a separate discussion. What is slightly worrying, though, is the amount of wealth Roma gains through trade with Carthage and her territories. It would have a noticeable effect on our economy should we break trade agreements with them and declare war.
This, of course, brings me on to the discussion between Carthage and Epirus. Carthage is a great maritime power, and it is more than foolhardy to disrespect the absolute ability it gives them to supply, transport and raid against us; a luxury we cannot enjoy at this time, gentlemen.
We may be able to enjoy victory on land, should an invasion of Sicily be voted for. However we cannot hope to protect our coastal settlements, or even our legions' backs, to an enemy fleet movement. Our people would suffer beyond measure, completely at the enemy's mercy; as helpless as we are to help them.
But then again, Carthage has completely disregarded our agreement with them. We all know of their movements around Messana, their diplomatic agreements with our one time mutual enemies in Greece, and the complete monopoly in trade they enjoy with our port cities; the tycoon merchants taking full advantage of our lack in even the most basic fleets. We should send a representative to threaten them with war, and not be afraid to carry out our threats should they not heed our warnings.
The alternative is Epirus. For this it is doubtless we may require at the very least to requisition a fleet of merchant ships to be able to deploy our forces across the sea. This would also majorly affect our income, due to the loss in profits the merchants, followed by the state, would receive, and the subsequent insurance we would have to pay to the merchants for the loss of their profits. I also believe that by deploying into Greece at such an early stage in our Republic’s history may bring us into a much wider theatre of war that we cannot yet hope to handle. War with Epirus, supposing we are victorious, will doubtlessly lead us to war with Makedonia and the free Greek city states. We will also most likely attract attention from the semi-civilised barbarians to the north, the Thracians, Dacians and Getai, who may sweep into Greece, decivilising and exhausting its remaining resources, or they may threaten to invade Italia itself, which our armies fight on in a foreign land.
Of course there are good points. Should we be victorious, we will greatly improve Roma’s standing in the world; militarily, economically and politically. It will provide new riches, fighting ground and glory for Roma’s soldiers and plebs alike, and will improve the life of every citizen under our influence. However, I feel invasion of Epirus may be a step too far at this stage. I would prefer to denote their influence in Greece by invading and attacking their supporters and allies in Illyria. We would hit two birds with one stone this way. Attacking Epirus indirectly by removing them of soldiers and funds, along with their influence and strength in Greece, leading to a far less likely future invasion of Italia, and also we would be able to root out bases of the Illyrian pirates that plague our eastern coast.
All in all gentlemen, we must be realistic. Although we have recently reached a boom in our economy, we must face the fact that Roma can no longer hope to exist as a land power only. We must expand our forces and knowledge of battle as well as our territory and influence. Although we may not hope to compete immediately with giants at sea such as Carthage, we can learn, and learn fast, from our mistakes, and will one day be all the better for it.
I thank you for your patience, gentlemen. Let you all now cast out your own opinions.
Cotta sits, drinking a little wine to wet his throat, and waits for the first Senator to reply.
Potocello
01-26-2009, 01:26
"Dux Cotta, you speak with such wisdom, you are a man to be admired and trusted. The Legio III has made it clear that we would rather not fight in the north. We do not agree with the benefits, but if we are required to we would fight there with the boldest determination. However, eliminating these rebels would be good for my Legio. We have been sitting in Capua for far to long, my thirst for battle.
As for our next target, I think Carthage. As you said, they have completely disregarded our agreement with Messana. This should not be tolerated. But, as you said, their navy is incredible and surely a war with Carthage would be expensive. At this point in time, my vote lays with Carthage."
navarro951
01-26-2009, 02:05
"Thank you to both Dux Cotta and Legatus Longvs as well, you support puts you very much in my graces. I too am tired of this blatant disrespect the Punics have shown us by imposing forces, no matter the number, so near to our border.
Come next congressional session, I will lay down many of my powers to the senate and take on a different title, rather then dictator that is. We must all come to agreement on this issue, as I have said before, whether it is now or later Rome and Carthage cannot share this world!"
It is clear that a fourth legion is needed, I propose the Consul of Legions begin recruiting at once.
I support an attack into Illyria. Our old enemy Pyrrhus even now is expanding towards our borders in the northeast, his forces have siezed Dalminion and even now my sources inform me the Epeiros raiding parties have made it as far as Segestica, but a month's journey from our border. Illyrian pirates raid our eastern coastline with impunity. It is time we dealt with this situation before it gets out of hand. Epeiros must be driven back from Italia and the Illyrian pirate bases must be neutralized. Not only would we secure our eastern border, but we will gain control of the vast Illyrian mines making this expedition self-funding.
I therefore propose the following:
1) Legions II and III be dispatched to Illyria.
2) Segestica, Dalminion, and Epidamnos be captured and Romanized.
3) A Legion be permanently stationed in Illyria to guard our eastern border.
I completely agree that the Carthaginians' actions are troublesome, but it would be even more troublesome to be heavily engaged in Sicily and have a Epeiros army sweep down into Italia again. The Illyrian mines will give us the income to build a navy to deal with any future Carthaginian aggression.
March east!
navarro951
01-26-2009, 03:34
"As I have said before, I agree with action against both Carthage and Epeiros. As I am soon going to restore power to the senate, I will side with what the majority believes is best, and give my own opinion as well. If taking Epeiros to gain money means holding off to attack the Carthaginians then so be it. But for now let us discuss, no action can be taken until the next session."
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
01-26-2009, 06:32
"Senatores, I've little time to remain in Roma to discuss these matters, as I must attend to the final preparations of the Legio III Campania to restore order to Kalabria. Dux Cotta, you have stated our situation in the world most accurately, and your appraisals of the enemies of the Res Publica are succinct. Nevertheless, I feel quite strongly that your statements in regards to the Third Legion bode ill for the Res Publica and reveal, yet again, your true intentions and your disdain for those who command Legio III - as I have argued before these fine Romans here in the Senate.
"First and foremost, I shall lead whence the Senate commands the men of the Third Legion, be it Carthago or the forces of Anax Pyrrhus. Secondly, I feel that you insinuate that Legatus Longus is either ill-prepared for his duties or lacks the confidence required to lead men into battle with your statement,
Though, of course, if the Legate of the Legio III thinks he needs an entire legion to put them in their place, so be it.
"Furthermore, you continue to assault the honor of the men of the Third Legion and our senate-appointed mission by stating,
Legio III Capua is marching south to dispatch a few farmers of their lives and freedom in Kalabria. Is silencing insurrection and rebellion beneath you, Dux? Why would you infer that our fine soldiers are murderers on the loose unless you either wished to diminish the importance of their Commanders for your own glory, or you secretly wish the traitors success, that they might overthrow the Senate and install you as their new king? You know first hand the fate that befell the traitors of Rhegium. Do not hesitate to think for one second that the Senate lacks the will or the power to issue that end yet again to these or any future insurrectionists."
Tiberius begins to pace as he speaks, his hands gesturing to the members of the Curia, turning to look them in the eye, and occasionally walking over to those close to the floor to place a hand on their shoulder and speak as a confidant, winning their trust.
"This is not the first time I have brought forth evidence from your own mouth that you wish to be our King, Dux Cotta. Nor shall it be the last. I submit for the appraisal of the Senate yet another exerpt of the speech you just gave as further proof.
For the moment, I stand as first speaker, thus I will conduct myself in the manner of said position and for now give both sides of each argument, so that every Senator can decide for himself who Roma makes war with next.
"For now Dux Cotta? For now? Just what do you mean by that? The last man to install himself as our ruler was dealt with accordingly. Our noble Dictator is on the verge of surrendering his powers back to the Senate that the will of the people of the Res Publica might be better served, and here you have the audacity to all but claim the title Rex....or shall I dare say it, Imperator!?!?!?"
Tiberius is visibly angered, his breath coming fast and furious. The malaise towards the would-be usurper of the Res Publica is palpable, and other senatores begin to talk loudly amongst themselves of the potential evil that stand before them. Remembering the sanctity of the hallowed halls in which he stands, Tiberius takes a glass of water and downs it. He recomposes himself, takes a long, deep breath and continues.
"Dux Cotta, you have proven your worth to the Res Publica through your campaigning. You have attained the rank of that which your predecessor, may the gods nestle him in their bosoms, had attained. I implore you to rethink your actions and scheming. The Res Publica can not withstand turmoil from within, should you dare presume to make yourself a king over us. Indeed, the Res Publica will not stand for it. It must not, as we are free men, in a free society. Your sage advice regarding our enemies is duly noted and indeed much appreciated; yet heed my advice to save you from yourself. We will have no king."
Visibly cooled, yet still upset, Tiberius Claudius Marcellus takes his seat. The surrounding Senatores lean in toward him and begin speaking in hushed tones, some glancing at the Dux, others placing a compassionate hand on Tiberius' shoulder with a brief rub. Tiberius' eyes never once leave those of Dux Cotta.
navarro951
01-26-2009, 08:19
"Tribunus Marcellvs, I respect what you are saying, but not as a friend, but as a member of this senate I can vouch for Dux Cotta as a good man of Roma. He in no way wishes to be king. Even he is in support of me returning more power to the Res Publica, so lets not take words out of context.
Legio III Campania, nor its leader, is any way looked down upon. I, as do all of us, know it will serve us well in battle. I extend the luck of the Gods toward Legatus Longvs in battle against all our enemies. So let us keep the peace we have returned to now in this Curia young tribune. For if we become enemies to ourselves, what chance do we have at all?"
Cotta, who had drifted off to sleep after the usual dribble that was coming out of Marcellus' mouth, woke with a start.
...sngh..uh..ah! Sorry, I was having this awful dream that someone was...ah...never mind.
Yes, Marcellus, we all know you have an obsession with me; the constant spying on me in my most private chambers in an attempt to hear reckless inner thoughts spoken out loud about how I wish to murder all the Senate and install myself as evil emperor of the world. It's all the same. I grow bored of your tiresome questioning and misinterpretation of my speeches.
For now , quite simply, means, For now I will give both sides of the argument, and not express too much of my own opinion, of which I will relate later. You must work pretty hard to find these lines that can in any possible way be related to me wanting to become king. This is just blatent jealousy; I, a Man of the People, having higher social and military status than you deeply offends you. Well, all I can say is that I am truly sorry, but for the Gods' sake's, grow up. I think everyone is just getting a little bit annoyed with your constant whining and spoilt ways.
Oh, and I am well aware that there are many lines in this speech that you could use to portray me as a rude, unjustifiable Senator that can't handle the powers that he has. But to be honest, go ahead. Everyone expects it.
SwissBarbar
01-26-2009, 08:56
Avlvs spoke
Dux cotta's sight is clear and he speaks the truth. Illyria would be the best target, I said this before and say it again. It's easier to capture than Greece or even Carthage, but still would give us many advantages. Wealth, Soldiers and our enemies are cut off their allies. Also, if we'd intend to invade greece itself, we'd be able to attack from 2 sides.
As for Marcellus' speech, it does not bear witness to great wisdom. Do you really see a king in everyone, are you that paranoid? Don't look at my hair, maybe it has the shape of a crown. He rolled his eyes. How can you speak of kings, now that our dictator announced to lay down some of his powers. We're a Republic. And a Repubic is what we stay.
A timid young man enters the Curia. He is dressed simply and from his hurried whispering to an older man it is clear that he is nervous and frightened. The older man nudges him and he finally turns to speak.
I am, err, Spvrivs Clavdivs Flamen, of the noble Clavdia. I am sure many of my cousins are here in this room and I bid thee greetings. I have been recently admitted to the Curia as a senator and I have decided today that my appeareance be neccesary. My family retainer will be present at all times, so I hope it bothers no one.
Cotta, smiling at Marcellus' silence, turns to the new comer.
Ah, another Claudii. Take a seat, quickly. We are discussing important matters.
Yes, I will. I trust that a scribe will be appointed to update me.
Who gave Cotta the title of "First Speaker" ? My arse he's objective, he would use his influence to sway the senate one decision or another just as soon as the rest of us. Military victories, however great, which they were great, does not give a person wisdom.
I also do not see the need to change the consuls. I can see no errors with the consuls we have right now, and I plan to re-elect them when they time comes if they decide to.
Perhaps senators, if we decide to bend to plebians wishes, and have our revenge on Phyrros. We can send one legion north of their territory, and one south. As a giant pincer we shall destroy them. (OOC and I dont want another incident like Asina happening)
Welcome Cladius, make yourself at home.
Thankyou for the welcome Scipio. I however do not believe that a pincer move on the Epirotes would work as you say. They have inland provinces as I'm sure you are all aware and war in after the mountain passes would be slow and hard going, not to mention long supply lines. The legion would be cut off without support and would likely be surrounded, not to mention the fact that many more borders with foreign powers would be opened.
SwissBarbar
01-26-2009, 19:35
Spvrivs Clavdivs Flamen, welcome to the curia. I see you're a sharp-witted man, we need that here to compensate Tiberius Claudius Marcellus. He laughed. No sorry, Tiberius, a bad joke at your expense.
Take a seat, Spvrivs, and feel free to confide your opinion whenever you feel like it.
Who gave Cotta the title of "First Speaker" ? My arse he's objective, he would use his influence to sway the senate one decision or another just as soon as the rest of us. Military victories, however great, which they were great, does not give a person wisdom.
Uh...I spoke first in the massive silence...therefore I was the first person to speak. It's not a title. Calm down, Senator. And I have to also say, if one does not learn anything after fighting in wars, when will they ever learn?
I also do not see the need to change the consuls. I can see no errors with the consuls we have right now, and I plan to re-elect them when they time comes if they decide to.
I do not remember having a discussion to get rid of the consuls. The consul elections will come within time. It is not a matter to discuss presently.
navarro951
01-27-2009, 00:49
Blasio, after a brief absence, reenters the Curia, he smiles toward the newcomer...
"Tribunus Flamen? I am a great friend of the Clavdia and it is an honor to have you join our good senate. I trust you have been made to feel welcome. Do not let these senators tempt you in any direction Blasio laughs.
Well then, down to business. I have been discussing our issues with military and financial advisers, and taking your opinions into account, and have been persuaded to attack Epeiros indeed. We will keep Carthage at bay for now with our rocky treaty. And at our next congressional session we will discuss a tactical plan of attack.
If I am so honored as to be elected once more for Consul, then I will be requesting a commission of our first Consular legion. (OOC: Ill also be proposing that Imperial Legions be changed to Consular Legions) If that is accepted, we will have another mighty force of strong Romans to invade them with.
So let us discuss Epeiros and how best to go about attacking them, so that our congressional council can be more speedy."
Should we attack Illyria, I think it would be best to install puppet governments for the time being. It will greatly improve the ordinary people's opinions of us in Illyria. They are not overjoyed at the alliance with Epirus, but they are not particulary against them, seeing as they have largely kept out of their country. I think if we came as conquerers, they may rise up against us. Far better to control the government, which in turn controls the people, than to try and control the people and the government ourselves.
Illyria is rich with precious metals, and we can extract a hefty tribute from the puppet rulers in return for independence and protection by Roma. I also believe Illyria will act as a power buffer between the barbarians to the east. If we can control the rivers and mountain passes, we can hold off an invading forces for weeks; enough time for a legion to be dispatched to deal with the problem.
SwissBarbar
01-27-2009, 09:37
True true. And apart from that Illyrian soldiers would be a good support to our Legions in the future.
Well, even if a diagree with the capture of Illyria for reasobs I wish not to mention I agree that a puppet state there could be of great importance. I'm wondering what this would imply to the other nations of Greek though. The Macedonions are strong and the recently created Greek league a big threats, but even greater trading partners. I am unsure. Anyhow, thankyou once more for a kind welcome Dux.
An old Roman, wisened with age and battles enter the Curia and takes a seat next to Spvrivs. After a whispered conversation Spvrivs stands.
My family retainer has just informed me that a postition of Aedile of Segesta is open. I know not of the private meetings between men but I am wondering if this spot is still open. If so I wish to apply. That is all.
SwissBarbar
01-27-2009, 17:35
For what reasons do you apply and what have you acheived yet, so that you consider yourself worthy of this rank, only a few days after you've been elected to the Senate of Rome? Not, that I had objections, but I wonder....
What have I achieved? Apart from my acceptance to the Roman senate, top marks in the university whilst being a plebian, quelling revolts and serving time in a regional army, (Trait Ex Tribunis Milita, which I take as serving in a small regional force) I am determined and a great public speaker.
I try not to brag but I cannot deny to myself that I have a certain amount of charisma and this would help the citizens of Segesta get used to Roman rule and hopefully recognize them into the Republic. I am unselfish, all profits made would go straight to either the citizens of Segesta or directly to Rome.
My loyalty is unfaltering, you can be sure of no Ligurian uprising in the near future if I do become Aedile. Spvrivs chuckles lightly. I also believe no one else has applied so I wish to fill the spot. If anyone else wants anymore reasons feel free to ask.
Finally, Mamercvs I do not doubt your intentions at all.
SwissBarbar
01-27-2009, 18:21
Well roared, lion. You know, since much Roman blood has been shed on that soil I wanted to be sure, that no wrong man would govern those lands. I see, your appointment to this senate occurred with good reason. Let's hear what reasons others have to allege.
Like I stated before I did not doubt your intentions of asking me in public for my reasons and also like I mentioned before, I do like to speak publicly.
I was wondering when the position was going to be filled.
navarro951
01-28-2009, 00:30
"Indeed well said young tribune. As no one else has offered an application...I hereby appoint Tribune Spvrivs Clavdivs Flamen to the position of Aedile. Governing settlement: Segesta. Serve Roma well friend."
(OOC: Make sure you read in the rules what you are to do, or not do, as an Aedile)
SwissBarbar
01-28-2009, 00:37
(OOC: yeah, especially the part where you lose the rank, when you leave the province...)
Congratulations young Senator
Potocello
01-28-2009, 00:54
On his way from Segesta to rejoin his Legio, Servivs stops in quickly after hearing news of the newcomer's promotion. It was only a quick visit as he had to get his legio and remove the rebels from Roman territory.
"Congratulations Tribvnvs Flamen, I am confident that you will serve Roma well. I look forward to your further involvement in the Republic."
Servivs smiles at him and then leaves. Hoofbeats could be heard as Servivs sped off to his Legio.
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
01-28-2009, 03:11
A man of average height and build steps forward from the front of the galleria. He is dressed perhaps slightly better than your average clerk in the Curia, but nothing particularly stands out other than the Hellenic design along the trim of his toga. He walks toward Aedile Flamen and makes a short bow of his head before delivering a sealed letter. They engage in a brief conversation and the clerk again bows his head quickly, this time with a simle, and returns to his seat in the galleria where he continues to take notes of the proceedings for his master.
I thankyou all for your kind words and especially you Dictator. I will serve over the people of Segesta well and will obviously follow anything the Senate commands of me.
navarro951
01-30-2009, 05:20
"I here by declare the fourth Congressional Council open! It will remain open for debate and legislation until January 31, 2009 at 20:00 Pacific GMT; at which point there will be 48 hours allotted for voting."
navarro951
01-30-2009, 05:42
"I would like to announce I will be restoring power to the Res Publica. Here are the following legislations to promote new law and make the passing of my power so..."
Here are my charters...
CA 3.1: 4.6 House’ Legion/Families Legion
Civil war in Rome may be inevitable as senators are all vying for power here. So in order to not waste away the senate’s legions which the Republic needs to defend itself from foreign enemies, each house/family will be given a legion to call its own. Provincial Legions will be used strictly for defense while these personal legions can be used to defeat your political foes. All personal legions must be kept in a house/families provincial reign until they are involved in a civil war. No offensives on foreign enemies will be made unless it is requested, do not ask to have it put into combat.
In order to gain access to a legion such as this, you must gain cities. All Provincial Governings are granted to you by the Princeps Senatus. Once you have been granted one, you can use your house/families settlement to fund you personal legions. It works like so:
Each city grants a house/family an “invisible” amount of denarii’s. 1 city will give the house/family 1000 denarii’s a season. That’s 4000 denarii’s a year. During times of civil war, each city brings in 1500 a season. That’s 6000 a year. The amount of money a house/family has will be kept track of in a new thread called the Forum Trapezai. (The console cheat, add_money, will be used whenever the purchasing of units is done. So as far as the actual Republic goes, we will not gain nor lose any money as exact amounts per unit will be used. Ex: (Unit Costs: 1000, so only 1000 per one of those units will be added then immediately used.)
Each personal legion can be named however the house/family chooses. All units requested for recruitment will be dealt with by navarro951 through an IC pm so that no one has the power to say “no I won’t recruit them”. Navarro951 will not respond to the message, the recruitment will simply be carried out unless other business needs tending to.
Personal legions have a max of ten units. Each house/family may have 1 legion per city they own. The ten units can consist of any ten units they want.
CA 3.2: 1.4 Game Management
At the start of each turn, the Consul of Finance will post a seasonal report on the events of the last turn, including a save game file for the new turn.
After the seasonal report is posted, players will have 24 hours to download the save, and make their personal moves.
Players can move their avatars, move any army (Consular Legion or otherwise) their avatar commands and fight any battles against the AI that they are capable of fighting with their avatar’s army.
The Princeps Senatus may move any avatar or army that has not been moved in this way as he best sees fit, including moves that result in battles, except that he cannot move a player’s avatar, units on a Provincial Governor’s territory or units under player's control in any manner that player has expressly prohibited.
The Consul of Finance may extend the time limit beyond 24 hours at his discretion, but all players are encouraged to act as swiftly as possible to keep the game moving.
Players may not move avatars or armies into the territory of a neutral or allied faction without the permission of the Senate.Nor may they attack the settlements or armies of neutral or allied factions without a declaration of war from the Senate or an Edict.
CA 3.3: 2.2 Gaining and Losing Provinces
All conquered settlements belong to the Senate of Rome.
A Provincial Governorship can be given to any player by the Princeps Senatus during a Congressional Session as he see fit.
Princeps Senatus’ can take away a Provincial Governorship from the Player only if 2/3 of the 'Senate' agrees with it.
Since the Princeps Senatus is the “primus inter pares” he decides, for the game will be more fluent. The senate has the right to vote about this matter, if a majority of senators wish it.
CA 3.4:
Promagistrate (To Replace Heres)
Requirements: Must be in-game Faction heir. Must be elected by the Senate of Rome.
Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Powers:
(1) Owns one Consular Legion. If he becomes Provincial Governor he can not have Provincial Legion.
(2) Can propose unlimited edict/amendments per 'Congressional' Session.
CA 3.5:
Princeps Senatus (To Replace Dictator)
The Princeps Senatus is the “primus inter pares”. That indicates that the person so described is technically equal, but looked upon as an authority of special importance by his peers.
Requirements: Must be the in-game Faction Leader. Must have been elected by the Senate of Rome to be the Promagistrate before.
Influence: 3 + 2 Stat Influence
Powers:
(1) Can propose an unlimited number of Edicts or Amendments per 'Congressional' Session and their Edicts and Amendments do not need to be seconded.
(2) Can call Emergency Congressional Session.
(3) Owns one Consular Legion
(4) Twice per full 12 turn Consul term, can prioritize one building in any settlement.
(5) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can force a transfer of one retinue member/item from any Player to themselves or any other Senator.
(6) Can veto one Edict or Amendment per Congressional Session
(7) Can ban Senators from a Congressional Session. Banned Senators cannot speak or propose legislation, but they are permitted to vote.
(8) Can give the title 'Provincial Governor' to any Player he wishes during the Congressional Session. Once done that he can take it only if 2/3 of the Senate agrees with it.
(9) Once during his reign, the Princeps Senatus can automatically assume the post of Consul. The Princeps Senatus must declare he is exercising that right at a Congressional session; he will then be appointed Emperor of Rome with no election. This right can only be invoked once.
CA 3.6:
3.6 War
All declarations of war must be authorized by an Edict by the senate during a Congressional Session.
CA 3.7:
3.9 Democratic Republic
Note: For realism purposes the senate rules the people of Rome, however because he is backed by his consular legion and praetorians, the Princeps Senatus may override all powers of all players and claim himself Emperor if he so wishes. Civil war, however, is a possibility.
CA 3.8:
4.2 Standard Legions
Standard Legions will consist of a minimum of 5 infantry cohorts, 2 ranged and 1 cavalry cohorts.
For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ Bodyguard units do not count as cavalry cohorts.
The Princeps Senatus will decide who commands it, but it is upon the Senate to decide where it is to move (if at all), and whom to attack.
Standard Legions can be created only during a Congressional Session by the Princeps Senatus or by the Senate using an Edict for that.
All Standard Legions are marked with a number corresponding to how many Legions stand in Rome and where the Legion was created: 'I Legion of Roma, II Legion of Kyrene , III Legion of Bonnonia etc.'
Standard Legions can be disbanded only during the Congressional Session, by the Princeps Senatus, or by the Senate through an Edict.
CA 3.9:
4.4 Dux Campaign
If so ordered by the Senate, a Dux can lead a Campaign consisting of at least 2 legions or more. A chain of command will be used in commencing this campaign. It all plays out like so:
(1) Senate declares war on Averni and requests Dux Gaius Julius to lead the I Legion under Legatus Flavius Julius and the II Legion under Legatus Marcus Julius in an invasion into their territories.
(2) Both Flavius and Marcus are now under complete control of Dux Gaius if he agrees to lead the campaign. The Dux will be aloud to form his own strategy for both his legion as well as the two player’s legions now placed under his command.
(3) He will then report to the Consul of the Legions and the Senate which settlements he wish’s to conquer. (2 settlement min. and 5 settlement max.)
(4) The Dux will have this command until he has completed his goals or determined he can no longer continue the campaign. Should he utterly fail in his campaign, he will be stripped of the title of Dux and be demoted to Legatus.
(5) If at anytime the Senate and Consul of the Legions feels the campaign is no longer needed or is destined to fail it will be called off with no harm to the Dux.
In all to be in command of such a campaign as a Dux is one of the highest of military honors in Rome and if you fail you will be punished accordingly, but should you succeed, you may see yourself as consul or dictator yourself one day.
CA 3.10:
4.5 Forming a House/Family
Once you have gained the rank of Quaestor and have been granted a Provincial Governorship, you will want to befriend a standing Praetor and create a family/or house. A house must consist of at least three members including the Quaestor. To form a house, you must be given a Praetors “sponsorship”, announce the name of the house and which region it hails from, and what it stands for. Have your sponsoring Praetor announce the fact that he is sponsoring your House/Family in the senate and then you can get creative. Explain what your House/Family will stand for politically, militarily, and economically.
A house will create huge advantages for the players in it. You will all be able to vote more powerfully during Congressional Sessions and also will be to place your members in better seats of power through your influence. Each house will have its own thread to discuss its own agenda.
(Confirmation with the dictator removed from rule 4.5)
ALL CHANGES IN BOLD!
CA 3.11: That the following Rank be Made
Tribune of the Plebs
Speaks for the Plebs and lower ranks of the legions.
Requirements: Must be elected to position.
Influence: 1+1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one edict/charter amendment per congressional council; plus one more edict per actively serving tribune.
(2) Can veto one edict/charter amendment per congressional council.
(3)The Tribune of the Plebs term is two Consul Terms long. (6 years)
Penalties:
(1) May not lead an army of any sort as he is still a tribune.
(2) Cannot Run for Consul
For the Tribune of Plebs, Tribunes may also run in this council here and now.
CA 3.12: That it be changed so Legates can run for Consul. For the purpose of this, legates may be able to run for Consul this turn.
CA 3.13: That Provincial Dictators now be Provincial Governors.
Edict 3.1:That the commissioning of Consular Legio IV Roma be proclaimed under my own leadership if the senate will have me.
Edict 3.2: That an invasion be mounted to take the major economic points of the Epirote kingdom.
"Lastly, if I may have the honor, I will be running for another turn as Consul of Finance. And I nominate Consul Cicero for another term as Consul of the Legions. I feel we have done our jobs to the best of ability and will continue to better Roma."
Potocello
01-30-2009, 08:09
A messenger comes into the Curia, he carries a letter bearing the seal of the Legio III.
"A letter from Legatvs Longvs, commander of the Legio III." He proclaimed. The messenger broke the seal and looked down on the letter. Raising it slightly so he could better project his voice, he read:
"Good senators of Roma. As you know, the Legio III has been sent to remove some rebels from our lands in the south. It has been many days and finally, we have cornered the rebel farmers at the coast. Several times they have fled from us, their complete lack of honor is despicable. The Legio III has worked long and hard for this moment to kill these rats, and yet, the Republic beckons us back for the Congressional Council. With your permission, senators, I would like to keep the Legio III here so we can squash the rebels. It would be such a waste to have come this far and have to turn back, my men need blood on their swords. Give us a few more days, senators, these rebels have no where else to go.
Legatvs Servivs Sempronivs Longvs, Commander of the Legio III Capua."
The messenger stands awaiting the reply of the senators, Longvs was getting frustrated with the rebel cowards for running like little children.
SwissBarbar
01-30-2009, 08:30
Avlvs rised
Very well! Long live the republic, the senate and people of Rome!
I second CA 3.1, CA 3.2, CA 3.3, CA 3.4, CA 3.5, CA 3.6, CA 3.7, CA 3.8, CA 3.9, CA 3.10, CA 3.11, CA 3.12 and CA 3.13 - which are all CA, but for reasons of officialism I just wanted to make it clear.
Concerning the Edicts:
Edict 3.2: That an invasion be mounted to take the major economic points of the Epirote kingdom.
It's a good proposal, but at the wrong time. I think we should take Illyria first, to realise your edict more efficiently, provided a Legatvs proposes it.
Concerning Legio III:
I agree, those rebels are to be exterminated, and since it won't take long it would be just unreasonable not to chase them down.
Avlvs sat himself.
I also second the complete list of CA's and Edict 3.1.
I would like to proclaim the edict, or rather expand on Edict 3.2, that we conduct a Dux Campaign in llyria. I propose that we should take the cities of Segestica, Dalminion and Epidamnos and their surrounding kingdoms. Once completed, we should build a wall of forts to protect the crossings over the rivers to the east, to prevent surprise incursions by the Dacians, Thracians and Getai tribes there. We should also protect the mountain passes into Epirus and Makedonia, to prevent a strong counter attack while we solidify our hold on the conquered regions. Personally, I would like to take Legio II Latium into central Illyria, to attack the kingdom of Dalminion. Legio I Apulia would move to take Segestica; the two legions would hopefully reach their targets at the same time. Legio III Capua would cross the straits between Italia and Epirus, and besiege the city of Epidamnos. Legio IV Roma will, once completed be able to protect the Republic's borders.
Therefore, I proclaim Edict 3.3-Conduct a Dux Campaign in Illyria, targetting the kingdoms of Segestica, Dalminion and Epidamnos, using the Legio's I, II and III.
SwissBarbar
01-30-2009, 09:28
That's what I'm talking about, thank you, Dux Cotta. I second your Edict 3.3
*Scipio returns after being summoned back after having marched all the way to eradicate the bandits on the via appia. The bandits are still there. He proceeds to read the newest charters, obviosly wanting to discuss them as much as possible, and not blindly agree to them*
While the CA may or may not be up for debate. I wish to add my input or questions or maybe some suggestions of improvement to them. If you are inclined, feel free to ignore them.
CA 3.1: 4.6 House’ Legion/Families Legion
While I agree with the overall content of this. I do not think that just because you are in a house you have to serve in that particular legion/region of the houses sphere of influence. Thats not my main point though, how does a house initially gain a region? Say 4 legions gain control of Spain and a house wants to call it their own, how do they proceed to do that and what if another starting house wants it also?
CA 3.2: 1.4 Game Management
I agree on this one. Im only commenting on it because I think it'a good that you need a following in the senate to say....do what Caesar did or something to that degree.
CA 3.4:
The only use for a heir I see is that you own one legion and can make unlimited edicts. Is this merely a legislative advantage? Would a character have to return to Rome to be a heres?
CA 3.5
I think the dictator should only be there when there is intense political strife/or someone declares themselves a dictator by being overly powerful through influence in the senate or army. I do however see the good navarro does this early on. With the consul of finance and army though I dont see much of a point in having one pretty soon though.
CA 3.8:
4.2 Standard Legions
If a commander is ordered to say, attack the mainland of Carthrage. How much control will the senate have over its actions? Will it be guided step by step by the senate? That seems stupid to me.
CA 3.11
Werent the tribunes of the plebs the wild card of ancient roman politics? I think it would be cool if you gave them more power over legislation and the like, but penalties on future careers. Just a thought
*Scipio is finally done with his comments on the charters. No doubt boring the majority of the senators, but he feels its necessary to establish whats what in case of future snags. He goes on to say what he thinks of the edicts*
I agree with edict 1.1. Though what are the limitations to the movement of the 4th legion. If its under the dictators personnel command, how far is it allowed to go? Only inside Italia? Is it going to be in a fort near Capua? How is a dictator going to serve his primary purpose if hes on a campaign?
Edict 1.2 is going to be passed whether I agree on it or not.
I agree with edict 3.3 as proposed by Cotta. Though I ask for legio III be on the eastern spear of the attack, as it has yet to prove itself in battle and is eager to do so against the Epirotes.
Cotta frowns.
I misunderstand, Scipio. Legio III will be in the most southern attack; on Epidamnos, near to the Epirites homeland. It is a most dangerous area of attack, and if the legion feels it is in too much danger it may wish to swap with another legion. However, the attack on Epidamnos, and the subsequent job of that legion to protect the mountain passes will be a difficult, and thus most noteworthy of honour and celebration should they succeed.
I have devised a necessary plan of action and strategy in Illyria; I only await complete confirmation by the Senate of this edict before I share my plans with the legion commanders.
everyone
01-30-2009, 13:23
Cicero returns to the Curia after a rather long absence up north with Legio I Apulia.
he enters without attracting much attention and has a short chat with his clerk over what has happened in the Curia for the past few days.
he then rises.
thank you Princeps Blasio for nominating me as the Consul of the Legions again, I shall do my job well if elected to consul and I bid others who also wish to be consul luck.
and I second Dux Cotta's Edict 3.3 (together with the whole list of CA's but I think it has already been seconded enough times), we need the legions to cooperate well if we are to take Illyria quick. However I would like to inquire on the number of legions to be on campaign, which ones would be? And if a naval invasion is required, I think we now have enough funds to send a few transports or so to ship our troops across the Adriatic; however I would think that such an invasion on two fronts would surely leave the Epirotes confused and unable to defend themselves.
Also, I had intelligence reports that those Epirote cities are weakly garrisoned (OOC: by double-clicking the city, I know it's sort of exploiting the FOW), though I have no information on the field armies there; but I can believe most of their troops are stationed in faraway Thrace.
and Sentaor Decimus, I believe that the Princeps Senatus may bestow upon Quaestors or Praetors a province to govern, and those men may eventually request a province or so be brought under their governorship, and a few of those men may wish to band together to form a house. so it is not a house that uses legions under its control to conquer new lands, but it is those lands that have been conquered that may be brought under the house's command.
Personally, I would like to take Legio II Latium into central Illyria, to attack the kingdom of Dalminion. Legio I Apulia would move to take Segestica; the two legions would hopefully reach their targets at the same time. Legio III Capua would cross the straits between Italia and Epirus, and besiege the city of Epidamnos. Legio IV Roma will, once completed be able to protect the Republic's borders.
Therefore, I proclaim Edict 3.3-Conduct a Dux Campaign in Illyria, targetting the kingdoms of Segestica, Dalminion and Epidamnos, using the Legio's I, II and III.
I spoke of the outline of my strategy a moment earlier, Cicero. The basic information is here; the legions involved and their destination. Their battle plans, the routes of movements and the deadlines of their movements will come when I release my overall strategy.
everyone
01-30-2009, 13:49
ah thank you, my apologies, my assistant seems to have missed out that part while taking the minutes.
(OOC: actually it's because I read too fast and kept scrolling around the page)
and I would say it seems to be a sound strategy; I believe all our commanders have the competence to ensure all goes as planned if this edict is passed
The Celtic Viking
01-30-2009, 15:45
Pvblivs walks into the Curia, dressed in a toga and looking confident in his strides, yet uncomfortable in his clothes. He walks over to a scribe, shares a few whispers and then stands up to speak, turning first towards Blasio.
"So you're finally doing it, huh? Good... if only a little late. However, I have some points to make regarding some of your Amendments.
First off is CA 3.3. Why should the "Primus Inter Pares" decide himself? Why should the senate have to pass a vote first if they wish to vote on it? Are you trying to engineer a long and complicated process in order to keep your dictatorship but in different clothes? There is no need to be swift when granting provinces to senators, so there's no reason why the senate shouldn't have all the say in it.
Then CA 3.4." Pvblivs snorts. "Why should he own a Consular legion? Shouldn't they, as their name implies, belong to the Consuls?
CA 3.5 suffer the same critique as CA 3.4, and more. If he should truly be equal, as you say he should, then why should he be allowed to make unlimited edicts and amendments when everyone else can not? Why should his edicts and amendments not need to be seconded, when everyone elses need two? Why should he be allowed to mingle in infastructure as he pleases, with no need for the senate to agree? I can go on with this, but it is obvious that you are not willing to let go of being dictator. You wish not the name, but you still act like one.
CA 3.7 just proves my point. You wish to remain dictator while not suffering from the drastic PR that title gives you. Not only should you keep a consular army even if you're not a consular, you wish to legaly be able to use that to install yourself as a dictator the second your front as a "republican" falls. Anyone who opposes your will is to be an outlaw. How ingenious of you.
If there still are people wondering whether he really considers himself an equal, look at how he separates himself from the senate in CA 3.8. "The princeps senatus or the senate can..." Hmpf.
If you have any intention of appearing legit, you will adjust your propositions accordingly.
Now I wish to propose an Edict as well:
Edict 3.4: One unit of Hastati from Legio I Apvlia should be replaced with a unit of Triarii, and one Accensi from the same army should be replaced with Leves.
OOC: The Hastati->Triarii can be roleplayed that one of the Principes became triarii, and one of the hastati became principes.
Lastly I wish to announce that I will be running for the position as Consul of Finance."
Hmm, some good debate. I agree to a lot of the Edicts so far but I will incline to comment untill a later date. Finally I wish to impose that:
Edict 3.5: The Roman Leadership line of traits be removed from the game and then released.
Discuss this in OOC please.
Potocello
01-30-2009, 17:53
Another messenger comes in to the Curia, he to bears a message from Legatvs Longvs
"Senators, due to the situation I am in with the rebels i would like to propose
Edict 3.6:During a Congressional Council, a Legio may attack the settlement/units the senate has ordered them to attack, if they are able to to so in that without starting a new turn. This would save so much time, seeing Legio is required to return Roma.
(OOC: does this need to be a CA if it does, then i can't propose this.)
I do not see the reasoning in this let me explain.
OOC: It doesn't really save any time except you get it done quicker. I do not think it is fair on other people as well and I'm sure a Legion could look after it self for a few days seeing as we roleplay months at a time.
Cotta stands.
I'm afraid I must clash with Legatus Regulus at this edict. Why should the Legio I Apulia be upgraded and not the other legions? We have all fought as hard, if not quite as long. I request that if Edict 3.4 is to be passed, then it be edited to all legions receive new units. As Dux, I am intitled to lead a slightly larger legion. I counter propose that if Legio I Apulia receives new units, then Legio II Latium should also. I have many veterans in my First Cohort who would make a fine Cohort of Triarii, and I can select enough men to replace those who become Triarri from the lower ranks.
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
01-30-2009, 18:24
A rather well-dressed clerk, now known to most as Quintus Flavius, Freeman, enters the Curia and after being directed by a guard, heads directly towards Aedile Flamen. He stands politely in the galleria and awaits to be summoned. After acknowledging a gesture he hands the Aedile of Segesta and the surrounding region a sealed letter. Quintus makes a quick bow of his head and exits as quickly as he came.
The Celtic Viking
01-30-2009, 19:40
"I'm afraid that you can make no such request, Cotta. My soldiers have fought long and hard, and they deserve this - and it doesn't hurt Legio II or III in any way. Your objection to it is silly, because it's based solely on jelousy and not on what's actually best for Rome.
As for your so-called "counter-proposal", it's neither an actual counter-proposal nor is it in any way legally binding, even if everyone wanted it. But I am a very reasonable man, as you will find out. If you tell me which units you would exchange for what in Legio II Latium, I may edit my edict to include them if I find them reasonable. Otherwise my edict proposal stays the way it is, and you will have to find someone else to use his edict for it instead."
All this talk of rearranging units made me thinking. The illyrians will no doubt fight as skirmishers, using hit and run. Perhaps it is for the best if we add more of our own skirmishers, or slingers to our rosters. Just a idea.
navarro951
01-31-2009, 00:29
"Blasio stands.."
"Indeed, the Princeps Senatus and ProMagistrate will now only be allowed 2 edicts/charters and the CA will be revised to make that happen. I will withdraw Edict 3.2."
(OOC: I meant to that anyway.)
I second Edict 3.3.
Also, allow me to answer some questions asked here.
While the CA may or may not be up for debate. I wish to add my input or questions or maybe some suggestions of improvement to them. If you are inclined, feel free to ignore them.
CA 3.1: 4.6 House’ Legion/Families Legion
While I agree with the overall content of this. I do not think that just because you are in a house you have to serve in that particular legion/region of the houses sphere of influence. Thats not my main point though, how does a house initially gain a region? Say 4 legions gain control of Spain and a house wants to call it their own, how do they proceed to do that and what if another starting house wants it also?
You do not have to serve in any legion. It is decided by the House Leader. All of Romes legions are decided by the senate. And a family cannot take settlements and call them their own. They belong to Rome and the senate. The senate will decide who owns territories. In essence, the more prov.governors you have, the more settlements you have in your family/house. Its a political thing.
CA 3.4:
The only use for a heir I see is that you own one legion and can make unlimited edicts. Is this merely a legislative advantage? Would a character have to return to Rome to be a heres?
No he would not. And he is not the heir, just a promagistrate decided by the senate who will be looked on as a wise senator, popular senator, authority figure, pick and choose gentlemen.
CA 3.8:
4.2 Standard Legions
If a commander is ordered to say, attack the mainland of Carthrage. How much control will the senate have over its actions? Will it be guided step by step by the senate? That seems stupid to me.
"Well as usual, the targeted settlements will be chosen and he will take them. After that, as the rules say, you can attack any settlement you want as long as they are already our enemy."
I agree with edict 1.1. Though what are the limitations to the movement of the 4th legion. If its under the dictators personnel command, how far is it allowed to go? Only inside Italia? Is it going to be in a fort near Capua? How is a dictator going to serve his primary purpose if hes on a campaign?
I am no longer dictator, I am a consul/princeps so I will command the army by rank and the will of the senate...as i said, if they will have me.
SwissBarbar
01-31-2009, 00:59
OOC:
We have an ingame faction leader. We cannot change that. So this is the Princeps Senatus, who is primus inter pares. With that we must and we can live.
We also have to have a faction heir. And this exactly is the point, how the senate can choose the Princeps Senatus. We cannot change the faction leader. If one char is faction leader, he cannot be "unfactionleadered", so the senate will have to choose the next Princeps Senatus before the current one is dead, because who is heir, we can decide on our own.
I say, every time a Princeps Senatus dies, the senate votes the promagistrate, who will become Princeps when the old one dies (may be one more reason for civil war), and with that the senate automatically elects the Princeps. For reasons of game limitations this is the most roman republican - like way we can walk on.
The Celtic Viking
01-31-2009, 01:20
OOC: No, there's a much better way: ignore the in-game faction leader/heir thing completely. It wouldn't be there if it wasn't hardcoded anyway, so it makes perfect sense to play the game as if it wasn't.
navarro951
01-31-2009, 01:37
OOC: No, there's a much better way: ignore the in-game faction leader/heir thing completely. It wouldn't be there if it wasn't hardcoded anyway, so it makes perfect sense to play the game as if it wasn't.
OOC: What about when we get MoTHs? what would be the point of accepting them? How would people enter the family tree? If they do not, they couldnt have kids and have an in-game linage which makes for great fun. The Princeps Senatus and Promagistrate returns basically every dictatorial power to the senate. I dont see why there is still opposition.
The Celtic Viking
01-31-2009, 02:04
OOC: What about when we get MoTHs? what would be the point of accepting them? How would people enter the family tree? If they do not, they couldnt have kids and have an in-game linage which makes for great fun. The Princeps Senatus and Promagistrate returns basically every dictatorial power to the senate. I dont see why there is still opposition.
OOC:
1. The adopter decides whether or not to accept. Kind of exactly like we have it now. Why do you think this would need to change at all?
2. If there's absolutely no difference between RGBs and family members, hurray! One inequality that shouldn't be there but have been as a necessity from the current days are gone! That's, uh, something to celebrate, not mourn, you know.
If there are still differences, well, then that.
3. I'm... baffled. How would we simply pretending that the in-game faction leader and heir traits didn't exist in any way change or interfere with the mechanics for this in any way at all?
By the way, Romans in EB were made infertile for a reason: they're not supposed to get kids, they're supposed to adopt.
4. Then there's the motivation for accepting MotHs, and you just answered your second question!
5. Please see Pvblivs' response and comments on your CAs. He clearly sees that you have not.
Why are you so deadset on keeping the heir and FL anyway?
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
01-31-2009, 18:59
But for the rhythmic grating of a custodian's broom against the stone tile floor and the chirping of a cricket keeping time from some unknown, dark recess, the Curia is as a tomb; its eerie silence deafening to those few who dared enter this hallowed hall.
navarro951
02-01-2009, 05:34
More time is needed on legislation, extending the Council 12 hours!
Legatus Regulus, I continue with the idea that it would almost be an unfair advantage to the Legio I Apulia should they have the best armour and weapons, when my legio, and all the legions that have yet to fight in any battle will undoubtebly also need them. Better soldiers make better armies, which in turn serve the Res Republic all the better.
I would settle for no less in my legion than my current First Cohort be upgraded to Triarii, the best men of the other Cohorts to refill the spaces left my the First Cohort, and a new unit of infantry and skirmish recruits for my army.
(OOC:Unit of Triarri, new unit of Hastati and a unit of Leves)
everyone
02-01-2009, 13:37
Dux Cotta, you seem as if you are proposing a diplomatic agreement or bartering with whoever who would become a Consul of the Legions.
Since it has been stated in the charter that "Standard Legions will consist of a minimum of 5 infantry cohorts, 2 ranged and 1 cavalry cohorts"; I suppose it would be allowed if the units you mentioned be added or upgraded.
anyway regarding this and a few other matters, I have a few CA's to propose:
CA 3.14 (OOC: pi):
To be added to Rule 4.2
Commanders of a standard legion may request that their legions be upgraded in any way via an edict once per two congressional sessions, to the limitations their ranks allow (e.g. if you're legatus you can't propose to add a unit to the legion). The orders are to be carried out by the Consul of the Legions after the session, moving units into or away from the target legion if necessary
examples of upgrades: upgrading unit armour/weapons, upgrading one unit to a stronger unit e.g. hastati into principes, adding units to the legion
OOC: this CA is to clarify to what extent legion commanders can upgrade their legions, though I suppose the edict proposed by TCV (Regulus) might also take place this congressional session; there's nothing in the rules which say that it can't
CA 3.15:
Modification of Rule 2.4 (changes in bold)
Tribunus
Requirements: None (Training Stage)
Influence: 1 if at all
Powers: None
Penalties:
(1) The Tribunus is second or third in command of a legion. He is young and therefore must learn how to properly lead and is required to serve in a Legion under a Legatus for at least 2 battles to be promoted, serve as an aid to a Provincial Dictator for 2 years, hold the rank of Aedile for two consecutive congressional sessions or serve under an aedile for two consecutive congressional sessions.
OOC: this is for players such as kipfizh/desert who would probably have no chance of serving as an aid/in a legion throughout his term as aedile
Also, I second Legatus Regulus' edict 3.4, and if Dux Cotta proposes his requests as an edict I would also second it. I think both legions I and II can make use of their upgrades on the next campaign they are sent on.
My reason for not turning my proposal into and edict, Cicero, is that I can only state one edict per congressional session, as my rank allows. I have already proposed Edict 3.3.
The Celtic Viking
02-01-2009, 14:13
"Cotta, you are talking as if Legio I and II are enemies, and not friends. A stronger Legio I means a stronger Roma, and I hope that's a good thing in your book. But as you are so against Legio I getting one slight upgrade, why should I get you three whole new units?
No, you are a hypocrite, Cotta. If you don't want my Legion to have "an unfair advantage" - as if Legio I would ever be the enemy of Legio II - you shouldn't in the same breath trying to make a bigger "unfair advantage" for Legio II."
Regvlvs turns to Cicero.
"With all due respect, Cicero, you cannot propose CAs. It is too bad because they are both reasonable, and I would've seconded them."
Regvlvs now turns to Blasio, with a sly smile on his face.
"What's the matter, your highness? Do you think ignoring my comments will make them go away? Afraid you'd make a fool of yourself trying to come up with excuses, but can't admit that I am right?
The emperor is naked, everyone. He has revealed himself for who he truly is. Your options are clear: oppose him or oppose the republic."
My dear Regulus. My comments were never intended as if we were enemies. I do apologise. Speaking of an unfair advantage, I only mean in the way that Legio I Apulia will undoubtedly become the strongest legion, and I do not think this is fair on the men under my command.
And I do advise, as a friend, to tone down your personal attacks on Consul Blasio.
The Celtic Viking
02-01-2009, 15:15
"That changes absolutely nothing, my dear friend. You are still a hypocrite because you want Legio I kept down so that your men shouldn't feel they are in weaker Legio, but have no shame in proclaiming how you want to make Legio II stronger than Legio I, completely ignoring that my men may not like that Legio II is stronger than Legio I. You speak of equal strengths while attempting to make Legio II the strongest. That is why I will not put what you asked for in my edict.
Oh, and by the way, I see no reason to call a spade anything else than a spade, so until Blasio becomes something else, I will treat him for what he is."
May I have the chance to change my proposal; in the form of retreating from the idea of gaining a further unit of infantry and skirmishes, and simply awarding my bravest men for their service (OOC: A unit of Triarri)
navarro951
02-01-2009, 17:09
I hereby declare that the time for proposing legislation has passed! Voting will begin shortly. There will be a two day period allocated for voting. Voting will end at 8am Pacific on Tuesday, January 3 or upon the time all senators have voted.
Tiberius Claudius Marcellus
02-01-2009, 19:15
Quintus Flavius enters through a side door and briefly runs his hands through his hair and down his clothing to shed the rainwater which has been falling all day. He takes a quick look around and on noticing the Prima Inter Pares, walks over to him, gives a quick bow of his head and hands over a sealed letter, no doubt containing the votes of his master Tiberius Claudius Marcellus.
Cotta looks around at the senators, before standing.
Gentlemen, I will now relay the plan for the impending Dux Campaign in Illyria.
I will keep it brief, and allow you all to ask the questions you need to if my explanation does not satisfy. The overall objective of the campaign in to quickly and painlessly secure control of all Illyria, before spending the time to secure Roman allied control and protecting Italia from invasion. Other objectives include underwriting the power of the kingdom of Epirus by defeating her allies and strangling her trade income, and also to rid the coast of pirate threat.
Firstly, I plan to march the Legio II Latium by spring. We will cross the kingdom of Patavium to the border of the kingdom of Segestica, whereupon we will force our way south, using force, money and diplomacy to make our way along the coast, taking out any pirate hideouts we encounter upon the way. We will be heading towards the kingdom of Dalminion, a strong ally of Epirus. Our supplies will come from a fleet which I intend to have built by the time we begin moving down the coast. They should be safe from pirate attack if the Legion is successful in it's first objective. Once the last of the pirate bases has been eradicated, the legio will head inland, whereupon the fleet will return to Italia. The Legio will now be on it's own. It will head towards the city of Dalminion, accept it's surrender or force it if necessary. This should be completed by the end of the year.
Now for the Legio I Apulia. The command of the legio will remain with Legatus Regulus. He will take the legio from the north of Italia across the kingdom of Patavium to invade the kingdom Segestica. He will enter Illyria by land in the summer, and head inland along the foot of the mountains. The Legio I Apulia will capture the kingdoms largest port-city, before heading inland. He will then head for the capital, Segestica; by the time winter has set in the Legio should be in charge of the city. Once captured, the Legio must secure the kingdom in the spring, capturing the mining and industrial operation centres.
Finally, the Legio III Campania. The Legio III, led by Legatus Longvs, will have to deal with the rebels in the south of Italia before they engage in Illyria. This should be done by the spring. The Legio III will then be resupplied to full strength, before meeting up with the navy in the port of Arpi.
Boarding the fleet, the Legio will then cross the straits between Italia and Illyria, landing on the beaches just north of the city of Epidamnos in the Autumn. There job is to secure this city quickly, thus blocking the route for Epirite reinforcements to Illyria. This, of course, is the danger. The Legio III must hold off Epirite counter attacks not just along the coast, but across the mountains of Epirus and Makedonia also. The winter should be a long enough time for the Legio to secure the region before Epirite forces can mobilise. I will be asking for reinforcements be sent as soon as possible across the sea to garrison the city of Epidamnos, so that the Legio may be at full strength and mobility as quickly as possible. If the Legio III can hold off the enemy for long enough, the Legio II can come to their aid.
Once the Legio's I and II have secured the IIlyrian kingdoms, they will need to construct a line of forts and defences along river crossings and mountain passes into Illyria from the east, north and south. I will require reinforcment units quickly from Italia to man these forts, though not many will be required in each. Once this is done, the legio's can move south towards Greece.
Although the cities of Segestica, Dalminion and Epidamnos are our prime targets, simply capturing these cities will not be enough to secure victory. We must follow up on these captures to secure our influence in the region.
I now open the floor to the Senate.
navarro951
02-02-2009, 22:29
"The plan for the most part is sound. However, I believe each legio should have a designated target. I Legio will take one city II Legio another and III Legio a third. We can use my Consular legio when it is finished to defend the Legios besieging towns from enemy field armies.
Also, with the training of Legio IV, which is much larger, im not so sure a fleet can be built unless it is made then destroyed once III Legio arrives."
I am sorry Blasio, I do not see how you could have missed the fact that each legion has a designated city to take. I believe I made it quite clear. Legio I will take Segestica, Legio II will take Dalminion, and Legio III will take Epidamnos.
And the fleet need only be a collection of acquisitioned merchant ships from the port of Arimium. The spoils, tresuries and and tributes from our conquests in Illyria will easily provide us with the funds we need. I believe we will comfortably have enough for both the Legio IV and the campaign in Illyria. I am against disbanding our makeshift fleet onc ethe Legio III is ashore, as they will have no escape route should one be needed.
navarro951
02-03-2009, 00:09
"Aw yes, well then very well the plan seems sound to me. Other than that, it will do you good to know that my Consular Legio will have all legios in the field covered from any Epirote reinforcement. I hope I can meet Pyhrrus himself in battle!"
Cotta looks curiously at Blasio
You mean to take Legio IV to Illyria as well?
navarro951
02-03-2009, 00:22
Well I have given it thought yes. I will march my men toward any Epirote forces in the field while the other Legios take their objectives. This way, our commanders will not have to worry about being attacked during siege or on there way to their target.
That would surely require a set back in the campaign plans, and most noticebly would leave Italia completely legionless.
navarro951
02-03-2009, 00:36
Yes this is the reason I have only given it thought. However, what are our threats? The Carthaginians are attempting to expand in Iberia so they are occupied. Those barbarians are still dueling with themselves in their own civil war so I believe if Legio IV does some time in Illyria it may not hurt. I will return home with the legio as soon as say, Dalminion is taken.
The Celtic Viking
02-03-2009, 01:21
Pvblivs stands up.
"Blasio, didn't you go on about how we must attack Carthage, because they've been spying us out and planning to attack us anyway? And now when we go to Illyria instead, you turn around saying they're no threat at all, they're busy in Iberia and we can safely leave Italia unguarded?
It doesn't seem very consistent, if you ask me, and it's an interesting observation that these opinion-swings depend fully on what at the moment suits you best."
navarro951
02-03-2009, 01:27
"The fact that Carthage has been a sneaky ally is not far from my mind. But I am also in no place to fear them personally. I am simply saying that times are changing and they may now have other interests at hand. Besides, as I said I will be quick to return to Italia"
The Celtic Viking
02-03-2009, 01:38
"I say no. Leaving Italia open for an attack, even if only for a day, would be sending them an invitation to attack. It's not about being afraid of them, it's all about not being reckless, and to leaving no defence against the Carthaginians now is not only reckless, it's foolishly so."
navarro951
02-03-2009, 02:50
"Well if our fellow senators forbid it then so be it. I ill guard Italia while you are all away then."
everyone
02-03-2009, 10:56
Cicero meanwhile, seems to be calculating or counting something and scribbling some things onto a piece of parchment.
After a few moments, the discussion in the Curia seems to have died down. Cicero rises.
Princeps, even if you mean to take the new consular legion to Illyria, I doubt it could be trained in time. Firstly, we do not have enough facilities to recruit them by the next season, or the season afterwards; my closest estimate would be in the spring of the following year. Also we might not have enough resources, as usual, so completion might be delayed another season; so the earliest Legio IV can be completed is Summer of the following year. and also, Dux Cotta's plan mentioned the use of a fleet; with all that, no doubt Legio IV would not be able to set off until sometime after Illyria has been subjugated. But by then, the men of the other three legions would be depleted, so they might need some help.
But I would rather Legio IV be stationed closer to the north, to guard against the Gauls, who seem to be getting rather restless the past few years. (OOC: actually I have a strange feeling Carthage is going to attack Massalia, because that nearly happened in the savegame I was playing)
Consul Cicero, seeing as we have no naval officer, I can only think of asking you as Consul of the Legions to begin the acquistion of merchant ships, so that we are prepared for the campaign come spring. I also ask that all the legions are ready to depart in the time allotted to them, and that they know their objectives.
(OOC: a CA for the future; new rank, Prefect of the Navy or something similar, in charge of moving naval units once we have a standing navy.)
Leave the ships for the Greeks and Phonecians. Rome has absolutely no naval tradition, and has no record of having a professional navy.
navarro951
02-04-2009, 04:21
"I would like to extend my congratulations to our new Tribune of the Plebs. He is truly a man of the people, proven in study and battle. Young Avlvs, serve Roma well!
Now on the notion of creating a navy whether it be of merchant or war class, I believe that Legio II should take Segestica and then simply wait and rest for the arrival of the other two Legios. Time consuming as it may be it will not take longer than maybe another 6 months. A navy, with the build up of the consular legio, is simply not in Romes best interests. And it is true we have no naval traditions."
I am not interested in having a navy. I require nothing more than a few merchant ships, who will be needed to transport Legio III across the straits anyway. The Legio II is not destined for Segestica, that is Legio I target. You were one of the foremost senators to fully agree to this strategy, Consul Blasio. Do not make a U-Turn now.
SwissBarbar
02-04-2009, 09:13
Thank you for your congratulations! Avlvs said As the first Tribvbvs Plebis of the Roman Republic it will be my ultimate ambition, be it the soldiers in our victorious Legions or be it our Plebs urbana, to advance our Plebs' interest in every aspect of life.
Now on the notion of creating a navy whether it be of merchant or war class, I believe that Legio II should take Segestica and then simply wait and rest for the arrival of the other two Legios. Time consuming as it may be it will not take longer than maybe another 6 months. A navy, with the build up of the consular legio, is simply not in Romes best interests. And it is true we have no naval traditions."
I disagree with this. Force the merchants to loan their ships for a few months. By making the legio's come as one overwhelming wave we lose the suprise advantage.
The Celtic Viking
02-04-2009, 14:19
"Are you out of your mind, Decimvs? We cannot force them to do that! What would the people say? What would they think of us if we just came and took their ships like thieving pirates, giving nothing in return? You are asking for trouble here!
And I'm not quite sure I follow you. Coming as one, quick wave is how we keep the advantage of surprise. If the war is prolonged and they're given time, it would quickly be lost. Perhaps you misspoke?"
I would think we misheard him in the echoes of the chamber, Legatus Regulus.
We should compensate them with money from our coffers. We have done it before. Once they have reached there full usage we can give them back.
Also, Legio II will move out next season. Legio I should prepare to cross the kingdom of Patavium to invade Segestica in the summer. Legio III should deal with the rebels and meet up with the navy late summer or early autumn. No later. We shoul begin requistioning the ships now.
The Celtic Viking
02-04-2009, 18:12
"I know we have, but it doesn't make it right. Give them a pay for it that is so good that they earn more loaning them to us than they otherwise would, I say. Don't force them to do it."
How much would you suggest would be a reasonable price for the ships, Legatus?
The Celtic Viking
02-04-2009, 19:57
"That should be negotiated with the merchants. I, personally, don't know the particulars so I'm no authority on this. All I'm concerned about is that the merchants are doing it on their free will, not coerced to do it."
I do agree. The merchants should always be paid an amount of money that would compensate them for the losses in profits they would receive after losing their ships. However, this should remain a fixed sum, so that we do not end up paying more to some mechants and merchants ordering more money, that sort of thing.
I do express the need for swiftness, though. These ships must be acquired quickly and painlessly, so that supplies can begin to be loaded upon them, ready for the spring.
Potocello
02-04-2009, 22:40
A messenger walks in with a spring in his step.
"News from Legatvs Longus:
The rebels have been destroyed. 17 Romans died in this battle but the other men are ready and eager for retraining and battles to come. Tiberius and Scipio have proven themselves well as commanders worthy of Roma.
Legatvs Servivs Longvs."
Cotta smiles at the messenger...
And I suppose it is common practice for messengers to decide how worthy Roman commanders are?
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