The Curia

[Potocello]

the messenger smiles and bows at Cotta

"Those are merely the words of my master, sir."

[/Bean\]

Cotta laughs...

Haha, a self proclomation...how...shall we say, narcissisitic?

[SwissBarbar]

Avlvs laughs. Don't try to be foxier than the fox himself, dear messenger. He laughs again. We acknowledge that your master defeated a mere band of lightly armed rebels with an army of heavily armed, well trained and - most important of all - roman legionnaires, outnumbering them 3:1. He won't get a laurel wreath, if you expected that. May he be granted the honour he deserves. A friendly bottom smack and a free night in the vestal virgin's chambers.

[Potocello]

Ah yes, a night which he is sure to enjoy!

the messenger laughs

[Mjolnir]

After hearing Dux Cotta's plans, I find them sound and whole heartedly support them. I eagerly await this campaign in Illyria.

Also, congratulations are in order for my cousin and fellow Senator over his new rank. May you serve the people of Rome well.

[/Bean\]

Cotta stands.

I will now be leaving to take command of the Legio II Latium. We will cross into Segestica and move down the coast, whereupon we will meet the fleet before heading inland to Dalminion. I trust the other Legates are ready to move also? And that the Consul of the Legions has ordered the acquisition of the merchant ships.

[SwissBarbar]

I'll accompany you right away

[everyone]

After his daily routine to the Campus Martius for his tasks as the Consul of Legions, Cicero enters the Curia
"Good day senatores; I am here to announce that a few merchants from Umbria have decided to allow us to rent their ships for as long as we need it, also for a rather reasonable price, however as Legio III is still retraining and replenishing, I have not enlisted the ships and their crews for service yet, so as to save costs in paying the merchants. "

(OOC: since I have not taken the save yet, I'm going to add the ships to Ariminum's recruitment queue once Legio III has finished retraining, which is next season.
and Potocello, if you think that you are not able to take the save or have doubts on whether you could on the day where Legio III sets off, I suggest you update your SOT post on who should move Legio III and to where, so that it could keep up with the Dux campaign.
and bean, you should have allowed some buffer time of a season or two in your dux campaign, the campaign's running a little behind scheldule)

[/Bean\]

(ooc: I did, that was why I brought out the plan 2 or 3 seasons before we were planned to set off.)

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

a man walks into the curia
Greeting senators, and aids. I am Sextvs Cornelivs Svlla here to serve out my military tribune and then to assist in the glory of roma.

[/Bean\]

A middle aged Senator rises, a representative of Dux Cotta. He has a foreign look, perhaps he derives from Celtic or Greek stock. He has a bushy beard, with a single streak of grey running through it.

Greetings, Sextvs Cornelivs Svlla. I am Dextvs Horatia Barbatvs. I represent Dux Caivs Avrelivs Cotta in his absense abroad. I would like to formally welcome you to the Senate house.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

thank you Dextvs Horatia Barbatvs, I am sure your lord is proud to have such a fine man represent him in the Curia.

[SwissBarbar]

Lvcvllvs rised and started to speak as effusive as always


O Sextvs Cornelivs Svlla, welcome, welcome to the curia. May the gods lead you on higher paths in order to serve Roma, splendid city of Ivpiter and Mars, mother to heroes ..... His enthusiastic speech continues until some senators start roll their eyes. Lvcvllvs composed himself. Well, in the name of my good friend, Avlvs Aemilivs Mamercvs, whose representative I am, and who is on the great campaign, together with our brave and heroic Dux to subjugate those filthy, unworthy, smelly ..... The senator at his side coughed slightly, some others began to grin. Well.... I bid you welcome. With that he sat himself down

Good old Lvcvllvs. A loyal roman but, different to his fellow senator Avlvs, he never could control his mouth and tended to hold exalting speeches at every occasion.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

thank you for the warm greeting Lvcvllvs, I hope to be of some use to great Roma in my time.

[Mooks]

Legio III has not left for the shores of Illyria yet, so im happy to greet you.


(OOC im a huge Salvatore fan too. Though Bruenor is my favorite character)

[everyone]

A messneger arrives.
"Senatores, I bring word from Consul Cicero:"

he unrolls a piece of parchment

"Fellow Senatores,

I have been informed by our allies at Massilia that a sizable Punic force has been at their borders for a few seasons now and may threaten our allies with an invasion; though they may be merely scouting, it may also lead to an invasion of our allies and eventually war.
some action must be taken in the case that the Poeni attempt an invasion of our allies

Consul Cicero"

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

And I happy to greet you


[ooc: I love pretty much anything to do with R.A. Salvatore books, but yeah Drizzt does have the lead by just a hair, for me at least]

[Mooks]

A messneger arrives.
"Senatores, I bring word from Consul Cicero:"

he unrolls a piece of parchment

"Fellow Senatores,

I have been informed by our allies at Massilia that a sizable Punic force has been at their borders for a few seasons now and may threaten our allies with an invasion; though they may be merely scouting, it may also lead to an invasion of our allies and eventually war.
some action must be taken in the case that the Poeni attempt an invasion of our allies

Consul Cicero"

Maybe increase the nearby garrison? If the Poeni were attempting to invade they wouldve already, they are not mindless gauls that are plaqued by indecision.

(OOC Drizzt is nice. But Salvatore makes him out to be too emotional or sympathetic sometimes. Though I understand completely why, I prefer bruenor's "Kill and eat em" attitude)

[everyone]

Cicero's representative rises to respond to Scipio

"Our treasury is now nearly empty, if we continue to raise troops, we wouldn't have enough money to pay them, and it takes a year for troops to march from northern Italia to Massilia.
however I believe the consular Legio IV Roma is stationed in the Northern frontier, and perhaps Princeps Blasio wishes to move it to make camp at a place which could easily access Segesta and Massilia, so that whenever either cities are directly threatened, the legion may move quickly to relieve those cities"

[Mooks]

Cicero's representative rises to respond to Scipio

"Our treasury is now nearly empty, if we continue to raise troops, we wouldn't have enough money to pay them, and it takes a year for troops to march from northern Italia to Massilia.
however I believe the consular Legio IV Roma is stationed in the Northern frontier, and perhaps Princeps Blasio wishes to move it to make camp at a place which could easily access Segesta and Massilia, so that whenever either cities are directly threatened, the legion may move quickly to relieve those cities"

I completely agree and praise you for your foresight into this area.

[/Bean\]

Dextvs Horatia Barbatvs rises.

Another delegation should be sent to the Cathaginians. If they refuse to withdraw their army or at least fail to give a reasonable explanation for their growing presence on the edge of our sphere of influence, we may have to take more direct action.

Dux Cotta is anxious to avoid war with Carthage for as long as is possible. We may need to resort to other areas of influence, maybe a new treaty, or a show of coins, may be enough to divert their attention away from war.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

A messenger enters the Curia and briefly speaks to a soldier standing guard over the hall. He does not boast the colorful livery of most professional couriers, but instead the light leather armor of a cavalry scout. He is covered head to toe in dust and stinks of horse to the point that those Senators closest to him actually get up and move away. The rider walks quickly, with purpose in the direction the guard had pointed.

The young cavalryman stops before Quintus Flavius and the two share a brief conversation and smiles. Letters are exchanged between the two and after a few brief comments the messenger turns and leaves the Curia, no doubt in search of a meal and a bath. Quintus breaks the seal of the letter and gives it a perfunctory glance and clears his voice to address the legislative body.

"Honored Senatores of Roma, this letter has just arrived from the Legio III Campania, penned by my master Tribunus Tiberius Claudius Marcellus shortly after their successful landing in Illyria Hellenike. With permission I shall read my master's words to you."


Ave Senatores, greetings from the Greek mainland!

The Legio III Campania has arrived ashore and sent scouting forces abroad to determine the amount of enemy resistance. I confidently state that our target city of Epidamnos is terribly undergarrisoned, and save a large relief force shall fall within the year. Both the Legatus and I have fallen terribly ill. Even as I write this to you I am bedridden. I pray the gods will spare us an untimely demise and keep the ravages of plague from decimating our men so far afield.

While our landing was successful, I regret to inform you that I have it on good word that two separate fleets of Leisterion pirates annihilated our supply fleet of merchant ships and drove them out into the Mediterranean itself. I fear that most men and vessels were lost to the deep. I assure you that my family shall not seek recompense for the ships donated to the Res Publica; but while we shall seek to allay the rage of the other merchants, I cannot speak for them. I trust the Senate will deal justly with those who risked their livelihoods to help this campaign.

In regards to pirates and other scofflaws, I hear told that two separate bands of rebellious Aphistamenoi are ravaging the country side of Italia. I am sure the Senate is aware of these trespasses; but I must state my abject horror that the citizens of Umbria, Latium, Apulia, and Campania should be threatened so. I suggest the Consular Legio IV Roma be dispatched immediately if not already sent northwards, and recalled if they have been.

I grow weary from this exertion and must rest for the upcoming battle if I am to be any good to my men or to the Legatus. Strength and Honor sons of Roma.

T. C. Marcellus

"That is all the word that my master sends."

Quintus returns to his usual spot and continues taking notes for his benefactor, preparing to pay special attention to any comments regarding this newest letter.

[navarro951]

Word from Princeps Blasio...

"If the senate demands it, Consular Legio IV will dispatch all rebels in Italia as it is their rightful duty."

[/Bean\]

Dextvs Horatia Barbatvs rises.

I second this motion. These scoundrals cannot be allowed to multiply and cause further unrest and damage. They must be dealt with the only way they know how; force and brutaility. I suggest a contingent of the Legio IV be dispatched, rather than the entire legion, and then once the rebels are dealt with, station themselves in the south of Italia. It will be a sign to the Cathaginians that although our armies are abroad, we can still defend ourselves, and more.

[SwissBarbar]

Yes, those bandits threaten the rural population with violence and murder. They have to be contained.
I second this too, with the addition that those trouble makers be crucified all the way from the Harbor of Brundisum to the strait between Italy and Sicilia!

[everyone]

Spurius Claudius Cicero, M.C. Cicero's cousin (OOC: and now Cicero's future representative and allied senator in the Curia) rises.

I don't think our legions would have to force to dispatch those bandits now. perhaps a tribunus skillful or brave enough, with the help of nearby garrison forces, could be sent to dispatch the bandits. right now the three main legions of Roma are on a campaign and the Consular legion is required in the north to protect our domains and allies from foreign threats, such as a distrustful ally.

[/Bean\]

Balbatus rises again

We also need forces in the south, Cicero. We need to show these Carthaginians that we are not afraid of them. It will do good to give at least some of the new legion a taste of combat.

[everyone]

I do not see how would defeating bandits show that we're not afraid of the Poeni. unless those bandits were incited by them to loot.
and what if our northern border is overrun while Legio IV is in the south? wouldn't that just show to other nations that we're incapable of managing threats even with military force?

(OOC: S.C. Cicero [new representative, refer to previous post] is not a consul)

[/Bean\]

As I said before, young Cicero, we need a force in the south. Moving half the IV legion will provide us with a force in the south. We also need to destroy these rebels. It just so happens we need both, and both can be achieved in one procedure. By destroying the rebels, we restore order to Italia, but also show the Poeni that we can deal with any threat at either end of our Republic.

[everyone]

would that not be too insignificant a way to show them? I don't think much would be achieved with almost half a consular legion crushing a small group of rebels numbering around 300; besides I doubt Punic intelligence is as informed as to know that there are bandits looting Campania; they are probably more concerned with their Iberian colonies or whatnot.

[/Bean\]

Barbatus looks down upon Cicero.

Ah, you are young, and naive, Senator. The Poeni have informants, spies and sympathises all over the Middle Sea. Not only that, but talk of the rebellions are all over Italia. Any half witted merchant could pick up upon their presence. Gossip spreads fast.

As for a show of strength, I do not see how showing just how easily we can crush any rebellion is a bad point. If we want to show how strong we are, then we dont send a small force do we?

[everyone]

'talk of rebellion'? madness! however is that possible, our republic is prosperous, how could there possibly be many people speaking of rebellion?
but apart from that, I think you have convinced me that sending a few regiments (OOC: 3 or 4, yes?) to crush the rebels would be prudent. Initially I had interpreted your words as referring to sending half or more of the troops there.
But who would command them?

[/Bean\]

'talk of rebellion'? madness! however is that possible, our republic is prosperous, how could there possibly be many people speaking of rebellion?


Uh...beacause they are rebelling...? It is nothing more than a few Samnites that do not know when they are beaten. But it is rebellion. It should be put down as such.

And I think you are missing the point here. Yes, send half the legion. It is designed not as a military decision, but as a politic one. I have said everything I have needed to already; I wont repeat myself. You have a lot to learn about politics, young Cicero.

[everyone]

at this moment Cicero mumbles something unintelligible that sounded like "bloody political nonsense" and takes his seat.

(OOC: I have yet to decide S.C. Cicero's age, so for the moment I think he'll be 'young'; also I think most of the characters I RP would mumble unintelligibly often; just look at Asina)

[/Bean\]

Balbatus smiles slightly, but not cruely. True wisdom only came with age and experience, he knew, and he was satisfied that the discussion had blown into a fit of rage due to a lack of knowledge, that was so common with the youth of today.

(OOC: Balbatus is reasonably old anyway, so he would refer to this Cicero as young whatever.

[everyone]

After a long while of silence, Spurius Claudius Cicero decides to speak on the same matter as previously again.

"Senatores, I have received word that there is another group of bandits looting areas around Umbria; and I think many would think that we should probably send men from the consular legion south to deal with them. however may I be so bold as to suggest that what if we are to recruit some of our allies and peoples recently subjugated, to dispatch those rebels? It could also be seen as a political move; other nations would know that the Italian allies and subject peoples still support our Republic, making us lesser of a target for other nations to invade. what are your opinions?"
(OOC: I suddenly got that idea when I noticed we could recruit Samnite spearmen in Capua)

[/Bean\]

Recruiting those who rebel against us? It is a dangerous idea. If it is truely your wish, then I strongly suggest we do not use them for garrison duty.

[everyone]

well if they were recruited, they would not be likely to rebel against us anyway; and yes, I don't think they should be used for garrison duty; it's rather risky considering that they are better armed than our usual garrison forces.

[The Celtic Viking]

A messenger comes into the Curia.

"Senators, I have a message from Legatvs Regvlvs."


To the Senate and People of Rome,

I have assaulted Segestica and although we lost many men, we fought bravely and proudly as true Roman soldiers, giving more than we took. Thanks to the valour of Legio I Apvlia the city is now ours, and the region is secured. I have thus completed my objective in this campaign, and I will stay in Segestica until a garrisoned has been summoned forth or a congressional session is called, whichever comes first.

While I've been away though I've had people taking notes of all happenings in the Curia and that way keeping myself updated, and though I through this letter can only express my opinion on the matter and not enjoy any debate, I feel it is in my obligation as a Roman senator to let it be known. To be specific, it is about those rebels in Italia.

My stance is quite simple: they must be taken care of as soon as possible. Letting a rebellion go on unchecked and unchallenged would be dangerous indeed, because it would send a message to our enemies that we are weak, and ripe for plunder. However, it is also foolish to leave the northern gates unguarded, so to speak, so sending our whole northern forces south just to deal with this is a pointless risk. I am unfortunately not updated on our fiscal status right now, but if we have the money for it, I say we should levy a force to deal with them. So far I agree with young Cicero's proposal. However, I am a bit worried about the idea of recruiting our allies to do it. They're not reliable people, and how can we trust they won't just desert and join the rebels immediately, adding to the trouble?

That is why I say we levy Roman troops instead. Them we could trust.

Legatvs Pvblivs Atilivs Regvlvs
Commander of Legio I Apvlia

The messenger salutes.

[navarro951]

A magistrate, well known and well liked, rises and asks for the floor.

"The following advancements in title shall be made!

Pvblivs Atilivs Regvlvs is discharged of the rank of Legate, and hereby noted a Dux. An Applause Breaks Out!

Caivs Aemilivs Mamercvs is discharged of the rank of Tribune, and hereby noted a Legate. Another Congratulating Applause!

Decimvs Cornelivs Scipio is discharged of the rank of Tribune, and hereby noted a Legate. More short clapping...

Avlvs Aemilivs Mamercvs is discharged of the rank of Tribune, and hereby noted a Legate. A short mumbling begins...

Yes on the removal of our Tribune of Plebs, election will begin soon with all Tribunes as canidates."

[navarro951]

Message from Princeps Blasio...

"Good friends in the senate, I hope we all extend our gratitude toward Dux Cotta and the men who fought with him in his campaign. It was finely executed.

Now, we must decide, take the Epirote capital? Declare a truce? Or wipe them out? I will deal with the rebels in Latium and return to Roma to debate this issue. All representatives of members not currently in the council speak freely of your senators opinions."

[/Bean\]

Balbatus stands.

We should keep one army in southern Illyria to keep the Epirites at bay and weakened, but we should consolidate our new holdings rather than invade Greece itself. We should hold off any plans of a treaty for now.

[Potocello]

Dux Longus' aid, Decimus Arrius Scurra stands and addresses the senate.

"I think that we should wipe out all of Epiros. We have come so far, fought so hard that letting these vile people live would make us Romans look like cowards and fools. I think that we should recruit another Legio and give it to one of our newly appointed Legatii. Perhaps Tiberius or Scipio? Both have proven themselves as worthy tribvnii in the Legio III, why not see what they can do on their own. While we train more Legios we could retrain the Legio I, II, and III and prepare to destroy the rest of the Epiros. What say you senators?"

[/Bean\]

A messenger enters the Curia and heads for Balbatus. Balbatus scans the letter, and thanks the messenger, who departs.

Fellow Senators, I have a here a letter from Dux Cotta. It reads:


Dearest friends and members of the Senate, the people and spirit of Roma, and the Consuls. I proclaim victory in Illyria for Roman forces. We took them by surprise, overwhelming force and spirit, and we have liberated those under the heel of an evil tyrant. The people of Illyria have thanked us in their own way, giving us many riches, slaves and land in return for their independence.

I ask the Senate one last favour as commander in Illyria. Many units of Legio III need evacuating back to Italia, and reinforcements have still not releaved the legions. The Legio I Apulia is far to the north. However, the Legio II is still active and ready to fight. We have Epirite incursions across our new borders. I ask the Senate permission to use Legio II as a border party, protecting our new holdings until the Legio III can be safetly taken back to Italia and sufficient forces arrive in Illyria. I will not be using Legio II to attack Epirite holdings in Makedonia or Epirus itself. It is purely a request to protect our new holdings. Will the Senate grant me this request?

Now, onto other matters....

[Mooks]

I second Longus's proposal.

[/Bean\]

Balbatus looks up, slightly annoyed.

Yes, thank you Senator Scipio. That proposal was made a while ago. What is your opinion of the matter raised in the letter which I read only moments ago?

[SwissBarbar]

Hopefully the same as mine, for I agree with Dux Cotta. Lvcvllvs said

[/Bean\]

Another messenger arrives in the Curia, rather dark skinned and adorning a light beard. He looked slightly lost, as if he had never entered the Curia before, though he wore the clothes of a Senate Envoy. He looked round in wonder as he strolled in, then at the staring senators, as if he was unsure of who to deliver the message to. Thinking this was yet another message from Dux Cotta, Balbatus rose to take it. However, accoring do the insignia it was from a Roman official in Massilia. Balbatus questioned the messenger, who instead of replying simply gave the scroll to Balbatus and turned to leave quickly, having not spoken a word. Frowning after the man, Blabatus read it, before speaking.

Gentlemen, it seems our delegation to the Carthaginians seems to have worked. They have turned away from the city of Massilia, and are marching back towards Iberia. We must be wary of Carthage. They are beginning to poke their toes over the line.

[navarro951]

Blasio makes his way into the Curia tired from the long march down Italia...

"Good men I will have a few days to spend some time here in Roma before I return to deal with our rebel problem.

I would like to speak more on the matter of this completed Dux campaign. Dux Cotta, I think we can all agree executed his plan skillfully and with as minimal casualties as possible. I believe that a few honors should be bestowed upon him.

First, when he and Legio II return I ask as Consul that they be allowed to perform a Triumphus in his honor.

Second, I ask that he be declared Dux Caivs 'Illyricus' Cotta.

Finally, in preparation for him becoming a Quaestor, that a Provincial Governorship be granted to him. I think the province of Illyria Hellenike is fair enough."


(OOC: I will leave this open for debate. If there is two sides of opposition a poll will be opened so we can keep the Republic in order. See TCV....:laugh4:)

[/Bean\]

Balbatus puts down the letter upon Blasio's arrival.

I wholeheartedly agree with all the proposed. Dux Cotta fully deserves these honours. The Triumphus will let all in Roma see the glory and riches gained by the campaign. The name Illyricus will let us all remember the honours Dux Cotta received for all time. And the provincial dictatorship will help sturdy our new borders and further honour Roma's greatness.

A wise choice, Consul. I hope the rest of the Senate agree. However, I do believe the other commanders should receive honours also. Not quite as grand, of course. Although their new ranks as Duxii are indeed splendid, they should be noted for their successes in the campaign. After all, one man cannot do it all by himself.

[Potocello]

Deciumus, aid to Dux Longus stands

"Wait a minute gentlemen, let us not be too hastey with these awards yet, Ilyria is still a work in progress. What are we to do about the rest of Epiros? I think it would be better if we used these newly acquired riches to create more Legios rather than flaunting them about in the streets of Roma. Also, what of our countryside? Have you people not noticed the bands of rebels which are roaming about our lands, threatening our farmers? I think a triumphus would be unwise and reckless at this point in time, we need to retrain and put down these rebellions. I do think Dux Cotta should receive these rewards, but i do not think he should get them now."

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

A deep voice rumbled his agreement with Deciumus, "Indeed, let us not be hasty in bestowing honors, especially such high honors and to those to whom they do not belong."

Senators in the back of the Curia strained their necks to see who spoke such words. Down on the speaking floor a rather large man struggled to stand up from his seat. This garnered quieted chuckles from the elder statesmen who were in better shape, causing the younger legislators to lean and whisper, asking who was this portly fellow. Caius the Fat finally came to his feet and hobbled out to the middle of the floor with the aid of a crutch, his ragged breathing echoing through the chambers. He blinked his eyes several times to bat away the diziness that came upon him from this rare exertion and bellowed,

"A Triumphus should be held only for those conquerors who have defeated a powerful enemy. Dux Cotta has done no such thing. In his own words, he sought to erradicate nests of pirates on the shores of Illyria. While his campaign was successful in its goals, all praise be to the gods, it was fought mostly against those same pirates and uncivilized barbarian tribes!."

Caius stopped speaking to catch his breath. An aide came forth and mopped his brow of the sweat that was beginning to bead. When he had regained his composure he continued,

"Our intelligence reported that Dalminion was just that, a client kingdom of Pyrrhus, while Epidamnos was their home soil. The Legio III Campania also readily defeated two forces and took a city from the Epirote Greeks - a true blow dealt to the enemy, not the acquisition of outlying, loosely "allied" tribes and provinces! The Epirotes are not even broken! They are instead reeling from a good blow; but are still in the fight. At most, Dux Cotta deserves a Corona Ovalis, for his campaign has earned him nothing more than an Ovation, in this senator's eyes."

Caius took a few sips from a cup of water brought to him by an aid and continued,

"And you, Blasio, what is this of offering the territory taken from the enemy - by a force not his own - to Cotta? Illyria Hellinike was not paid for with Roman blood to be gifted away to the latest passing fancy, as a schoolboy would give a flower to his love! Should, then, this legislative body bestow an honorific agnomina to a man who shooed away goat herders and peasants from their hillside hovels? I should dare say not. No, honored sons of Roma, not during my lifetime. I will not see it done, that a warrior be granted such excesses when he has but begun what could be a lifetime of glory and honor. In time, perhaps; yet now is not that time.

Caius hobbled back to his seat and turned around to address the Curia before he sat,

"Nay to a Triumphus!
Nay to a provincial dictatorship in an unearned land!
And nay to a titular honor, unearned!

What would we bestow upon a general who had performed greater deeds under greater adversity if we grant our finest and greatest honors for such trivial accomplishments as these?"

Caius heavily plops down into his stone chair and lets out a sound more akin to the bellows of a forge. As an aide brings him more water and daubs a damp cloth to his neck and forehead he nurses and rubs the stump of his right leg - the last physical reminder of a once renowned Roman commander.

[desert]

Hey senators, it's Mars again. Been a long time, hasn't it? I remember some of you were kind of, well, scared ****less by my appearance, and you sent some Augurs to sacrifice a bull to me (yeah, I could tell that what you wanted was for me to leave:no:).

So I was just here to say that the Marcellus kid, what was it...Tiberius, was using Jedi Mind Tricks on the fat guy to make him act as his messenger. That's all for now.

OOC: In other words, back in the early days we decided that you can only portray yourself, or a runner carrying a message of yours in the Curia.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert
For roleplay purposes, I am not yet a Senator - if I ever even become one. So just pretend that was the voice of a god.

In the game you are your character and your character only. You can't be your character + Mars.

I will make my IC entrance tomorrow, I think. It is my opinion though that the typical army should have enough and the right units to allow for the tactic that... err... "Mars" told us to use. It seems much more correct to have it that way. I also have a slight problem with the whole "dictator" thing. Why not consul and co-consul? I do not know what those dudes did historically (Rome is really not my favourite area), but in Camillan times I think "dictator" would be worse no matter what the consuls actually did. -.-

(I am aware that they could become dictator, but this was if I have understood things correctly only for a limited time, and not something they wanted to be permanent. Perhaps adding a rank of dictator that can be held by X person Y time and giving Z benefits, or just have it as it is but with changed names. That's my opinion, at least.)

[SwissBarbar]

OOC: WTF :inquisitive: :inquisitive: :inquisitive:

[/Bean\]

Balbatus looks astonished at the Fat's outbursts.

Excuse me? So commanders are no longer rewarded for their accomplishments nowadays? We are to break hundreds, nay, thousands of years of tradition for your jealousy of this Roman Commander? No, I won't have it. You cannot deny the praise, rewards and justifications always go to the commander, and from hence to the lower orders. It has always been that way, and will forever remain that way.

Everyone knows the price of failure, yet many seem to not know the rewards of victory. Should this campaign have gone wrong, Dux Cotta's career would have been over. Like him as a man or not, that is a big risk to take. He asks only for what he deserves, as commander of the expidition that he planned, commanded and won! I saw no input from you, Caivs. As I see it, you don't look fit enough to comment on such matters.

Cotta asks for a triumphus to show his victory in Illyria, not against the kingdom of Epirus. The idea was never to directly attack Epirus, but to rid them of strong, supporting allies to the north, strangling their manpower and their wealth. The fact that their manpower was depleated and they did not leave a substantial defence force, alongside their failures at governing these new tribes, is no fault of Dux Cotta's. You are suggesting he be denied prizes for the enemie's failures. There is no sense in that.

Even now, Cotta toils in the mountains in the north of Epirus and Makedonia, protecting the Legio III, who did do a fine job indeed in taking the lightest garrisoned target, although the relief force was unprecidented and dealt with well, I must say. I do praise the commanders of the other Legions, and wholeheartidly agree with their respective promotions. But would you have the lower commanders granted these rewards, these honours and new powers, and that Dux Cotta receive nothing? Don't even bother to answer; it's propostrous.

In a letter sent to me, Dux Cotta assured me he wanted the Province of Illyria Hellenike simply due to the fact it would need a strong leader and protection in this time of need, when it is at it's weakest. The Illyrian kingdoms to the north do not require such attention as of yet; they can be governed by Roman puppet kings for now, guarded by a mixture of Italian and Illyrian loyalists.

This attack is nothing more than jealousy and regret that you could not be there yourself, Caivs, and for whoever else you may speak for. I beg you, Senators, do not get sucked into this way of thinking.
Thank you.

[The Celtic Viking]

Dux Regvlvs re-enters the Curia.

"Senators, I have heard news that a triumphus has been proposed for Cotta. May I ask why King Blasio seeks to make such a prestigious reward bleak and honourless? If we're giving out a triumphus for killing some rag-tag pirates, where is my triumphus for taking out the rebels in Massalia? When will Blasio's triumph be held for taking out those rebels he's aiming to put down? If he had hiked from town to town all alone by himself, then the proposal would at least make sense, but when using three whole legions, it's an affront to the gods to even utter the word.

I wholeheartedly agree with Tiberius, in other words. He should neither get a triumph, nor should we give him the land. He has not deserved it, and I will not accept that my men died in their great feats of valour only for him to take all the credit. All he did more than me or Dux Longus was to plan the operation - a plan that was too tightly scheduled and which caused a lot of tired legs and unnecessary casualties in The First, I may add. My three year old son could have done that."

[SwissBarbar]

Lvcvllvs rises and adresses Regvlvs highly indignant

It's for planning and leading an operation with 3 legions, don't forget, Regvlvs, you were under his command and fought for him, not for yourself.

First you say it's only a bunch of pirates and easy to defeat, and in the same breath you speak of the high losses you suffered? So what is it. Are you just a bad commander who let a few crappy pirates slaughter his brave soldiers or were the Illyrians, who fought in the armies of Philipp and Alexander, stronger adversaries than you admit and you are just jealous of Cotta?

I say yes, you are. You all are jealous cretins, not worthy of the Roman Republic. Shame on you! Shame on you all! You don't need to be jealous, for you'll never reach the glory of Cotta anyway!

Lvcvllvs voice got louder as he spoke the last sentence. This had to be said!

[/Bean\]

Balbatus speaks again.

Thank you, Lvcvllvs, but remember we all fight for the glory of the Republic. Cotta does not want to take any kind of power away from other men. He simply wants what he deserves; some recognition.

[SwissBarbar]

Yes yes, I know. They fought under Cottas command but for the republic. It's just pathetic how obviously jealous they are.

[/Bean\]

May I propose a compromise? Dux Cotta does recognise the other commanders' skill and sacrifice in this campaign. I am sure he would agree for them to join him on his Triumphal procession through Roma. A shared Triumph, gentlemen. How about it?

[The Celtic Viking]

"On the way here I squashed an ant with my boot. I demand some recognition for it, and I think I deserve no less than a triumphus. Will you support me now, or can we safely call you jealous?

Yes, you laugh. I would too, if someone came here and made this claim in full sincerity. It is a preposterous suggestion to throw a triumphus for such a thing as squashing an ant, and you'd oppose it because of that, not because you're jealous. It is an obvious false dilemma we can all find humour in. Yet, that is exactly what Lvcvllvs and Balbatvs are doing here."

Pvblivs sighs and turns to Lvcvllvs.

"I have a very well understanding of how a Dux campaign works, Lvcvllvs, so spare me the lessons. The only thing he did that I or Longvs didn't do was to plan the campaign, and he planned it poorly, causing unnecessary deaths of strong, Roman soldiers. If you think that warrants a triumphus, then I don't want to know how low you regard triumphs. They must be worthless in your mind, only a sign given to vane people for not falling on his sword.

As for your insults, you can spare me them as well. Many of my men died because they were tired from the forced marching I had to put them under to keep up with the insane and impossible schedule Cotta had given me, hungry from the lack of a proper supply line that I was not given time to set up and even pirates can do much damage when you are forced to assault prepared positions. That is why I say unnecessary casualties happened, and if you do not get the meaning of that, then perhaps you should get an aid who can explain it to you separately. Everyone else know what that means anyway."

[SwissBarbar]

Congratualtions for killing an ant. At least something.....finally


Bad supply is a foul excuse for your incompetence. Unnecessary losses indeed, because if your three year old son had commanded the army, the result would've been much better. We should consider that for the next time.

[The Celtic Viking]

Pvblivs laughs, sincerely and loudly.

"Is that the best you've got? More insults based on absolutely nothing, and not even a single argument?" He chuckles. "Then you concede that there really is no support for your position, and that the support for mine is sound. All you've managed to do here is to make a fool out of yourself, my dear Lvcvllvs."

[Mooks]

I agree with Cotta, He should be named Illyrica and stay in Illyria with a provincial dictatorship for a minamun of 5 years.

[SwissBarbar]

If you didn't understand my arguments before, I cannot help you, jealous friend.

[everyone]

Cicero (M.C.) calmly enters the Curia

"what is this I hear of a Triumphus and Dux 'Illyricus' Cotta?"

"surely it is foolish to celebrate over something which is not completed yet? even this moment Epirus is preparing themselves to retake the lands they once held, and we are already thinking of spending those resources we took from them, instead of using it to secure our position there? What is there to celebrate when the cities there are taken from us and the legions stationed in them destroyed?"

"And why the need for a Provincial governor now? The region isn't even established or secured yet, the governor would have nothing to govern, or nothing to govern properly. Also, the legion meant to protect the province would only puncture our recently-revived economy; it would be better if a new legion was set up to protect our ill-defended northern border, whom Legio IV is currently squishing some rebels which could be squished in a manner more effecient; for example dispatching them using a few replenished regiments from legions which have been shipped back for retraining."

[/Bean\]

Cicero, Legio II will protect the province, as it is doing now. There is no need to darft a new one until we secure enough funds to so do. In hope of a conclusion to the matter and to let Dux COtta know of our proceedings, should I draft a letter to him that the decision be postponed upon a later date? Would it please, or at the very least help certain senators if Dux Cotta would not receive these honours until Epirus has been defeated unarguably in battle, and a peace treaty resumed?

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Caius the Fat harrumphs loudly, drawing the attention of the Senators. He remains seated for what he has to say, the previous exertion having taken its toll on his large frame,

"Lucullus, Balbatus, no one here is jealous of Cotta's and Blasio's mutual suckling at each other's teat, attempting to win favor and presitge from the other. The campaign met its goals; but is simply not worthy of the great honor of a Triumphus. I would not take all glory from the commander - and indeed stated I would support an Ovation for his efforts. If that, Balbatus, is not recognition enough, then your friend is too greedy.

Focusing a sudden darker, sinsiter glare upon Lucullus, the entire being of Caius the Fat seemed to change, taking on the bearing of the man he used to be,

"And Lucullus, my size may not reflect the strong, young man I once was; but I will not be told that I shall never meet the 'greatness' and 'glory' of Cotta when I had my right leg hacked off fighting Samnites before both of your fathers were suckling at their mother's breast! Do not dare to speak to me of what warrants recognition on the field of battle. Though I am well-advanced in years, I hail from a time when hard work was its own reward. I brought numerous armies to heel and many people and lands under the purview of the SPQR. Do not, presume, to speak to me of jealousy towards this mewling infant of a commander; he has but a handful of victories under his belt.

Visibly cooled, Caius' demeanor returned to that of the cantankerous, blustery old fat man that he was. He sipped on a cup of water and continued,

"The land of Illyria Hellinike certainly requires a stronger Roman presence than the northern provinces, being as it lies in the heart of Epirote territory, yet why should Dux Cotta be the man for that job? Because Blasio wishes to appease him so? Let the Senate vote upon it, for there are men equal and greater in various regards who are apt for the job as well. We do not need Blasio to spoonfeed us that which he believes is good for us. I say let they who conquered the land protect it. Let the Legio III Campania under Dux Longus guard us from the Epirotes as a garrison force, not a governorship!. They, afterall, championed the original decision to venture in to Greece years ago."

Caius raises a heavy arm towards Dux Regulus, but lets it drop before reaching the full height.

"Dux Regulus and now Cicero here speak words of wisdom, words beyond their young years. We as representatives of the people would do well to hear their defense of the Res Publica, and listen. Let us take a vote on this matter, that is, afterall why we are here. The grandiose plans of some are ill-advised and do not bode well for the Res Publica."

[/Bean\]

Let us leave this until the congressional session. Then we should decide what happens to Illyria.

[Potocello]

"I agree with Cotta, the Congressional Council is so close, it would be wise to save this bickering for the council."

[/Bean\]

Balbatus remains standing.

Now, in other news gentlemen, I have received word that the messenger that delivered me news of Carthages agreement to leave southern Gaul and northern Hispania was indeed false. Having returned an answer to the official who supposedly reported this news, I found out that he had sent no such letter. I believe this to be the work of the Punics; their agents in Roma. We should be wary of such characters.

I strongly suggest we send a man of influence that we can trust to meet with the commander of the Punic force that was camped near Massilia. I suggest Consul Cicero, a man of strength and integrity.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Many Senatores break into hushed whisperings and even outright shouting of their various support, or lack thereof of this turn of events. The rancour begins to swell as Senator questions Senator, aides deliver conflicting reports from the library alcoves, and the strong-headed demand to be heard above their peers. More than once shouts of "Send in the Army!", "Betrayers!", "Lies!", and "Allies" can be heard distinctly over the clamourous debate.

One middle-aged, unassuming Senator stands up at his seat and in a moment of relative quiet shouts,

"On whose word have you received this message? Anonymous couriers in the night seeking to stir hatred amongst allies are dubious in the least!"

[navarro951]

"I find it funny, to once more have this king title thrown at me. Did i not ask? Did i say i would simply bestow these rewards on my command no! It seems some people cannot forget the past..."

[The Celtic Viking]

"No, some people just won't close their eyes for the reality for some empty gestures. If anyone here have a doubt of your continued position as king, he need only take a quick glance at the constitution. Has it been changed, as the senate voted it should be? No. It is the same as before, keeping Blasio here as a firm dictator. His propositions and pretensions of re-establishing the Republic, false as they were yet still better than what is, have been shown as mere promises you never intended to realise. Some may be fooled by this, but not I.

My calling you for what you are has thus nothing to do with what happened here - a front by which you wish to hide behind - but all with what you do, haven't done and what illegal perks you allow yourself, and even wished to keep for yourself in your fake propositions. So, your unlawful highness, until you actually give up being a king I will keep calling you out as one, and changing the title for reasons of propaganda won't be enough."

(OOC: By "constitution" I'm of course referring to the rules, which still haven't been updated, despite my PM quite a while ago reminding you of precisely that.)

[/Bean\]

Balbatus rolls his eyes.

These acusations against Blasio are getting tiresome, Regulus. He is one of our two Consuls-one of the two most powerful men in the Senate for his term. Of cours ehe has greater sway for the time being. When his office is up, and possibly he is replaced, someone will get their turn. But I'm afraid that if you don't begin to drop this continuted and quite frankly now empty attack on our Consul, you will not be receiving my vote come the elections.

[SwissBarbar]

He wouldn't participate anyway, for he wouldn't want to become "king", does he

[The Celtic Viking]

"Oh Balbatus, you senile old fool, do you not understand anything that I have said - ever? If anything, I have always argued for more power to the Consuls! What he gets from being one is not what I'm objecting to, it has never been a reason for my dissent.

If you didn't hear me before, I will say it again: Blasio has not changed our laws, even when the Senate almost unanimously in most cases and unanimously in some, voted for that to be done! He has completely ignored the Senate's decisions, refusing to do what it decided must be done - and that is the illegal actions of a tyrant, not a lawful Consul! Don't you see? He pretends to care what the Senate says, but then gladly disregards it in action. If that doesn't get your lips away from his ass crack, then I don't know what will. Or perhaps you want a king, and that's why you defend him like this?

Furthermore, even if he had gone through with the changes he by law is forced to make, it would still not change the fact that he's still reigning king. It would change the name from what he really is - a dictator - to "Princeps", but what is that if not just an attempt to avoid the bad connotations that come with the word dictator? He still gladly points out through it that he is superior to you, superior thanks to birth. Even if the latter once to replace him would be chosen by the senate - fat chance he would care about those anyway, since he as I just proved only pay lip service to our votes - there would still be no way to remove him once "elected", save through death. That's not a republic.

If you are not loyal to the Republic, then shame on you, and may the gods show you no mercy. I, however, will not be silenced simply because I am."

[/Bean\]

Balbatus smiles at the insult.

I'm afraid you must have me mistaken for someone else, Regulus. I harbour no connection with the Consul whatsoever, especially within his toga.

So, he has need to visit the House of the Republic to rewrite part of the Constitution. And what then? What would you have him do in order to have you lift these curses against him?

[The Celtic Viking]

"You say it as if it's a small thing. I have just proven to you that he does not care what the Senate thinks, and you just shrug it off as if it was nothing?! Where in Rome can I find a senator who actually cares about the Republic?!

If he harbours any intent of being a legit Roman senator, he should renounce both the Dictator and Heres part that is now, and the "Princeps & Promagistrate" and take his rightful rank of Tribune. This, of course, means that he cannot be a Consul either. The Consular legion should go to someone it rightfully belongs: a Consul. Whether that means Cicero or whomever the Senate decides is to replace Blasio as the Consul of Finance doesn't matter to me. That is up to the Senate as a whole to decide.

Shortly put, for me to lift my curses he must return Rome into a Republic. There is no other way."

[SwissBarbar]

Your attempt to turn everyone who is not your pet into an opponent of the republic not only is ridiculous, it also makes it obvious what you really intend to do... making the others look bad, because it's the only way you can distinguish yourself. I'm quite sure, after having said this, I'm also an enemy of the republic, right? Please don't confuse the republic with your person, my dear friend

[/Bean\]

We all care for the Republic, Regulus. We are the Republic, its body and soul. The fact that we disagree and have different priorities and ideas for the Republic is what makes it great and strong.

When does the current Consul period end? Blasio has done a good job as Consul of Finance, and as Consul of the Legions previously, even you can not deny that. I suggest that he is allowed to continue his current office, and then following the end of the Consul term new Consuls be choson.

[The Celtic Viking]

"What I'm telling you is that the Republic... isn't. Blasio's actions prove that. If you do not care about taking Blasio off his throne, then you do not care about the Republic. It's as simple as that.

Regardless of what he has done as a Consul, he holds the position illegally. Do you not care about the law, or do you think you can just pick and choose which ones to follow? Just waiting for the next election and electing a new one will not do. He should be impeached immediately."

[desert]

In a mighty, booming voice, Mars cries out:

Pvblivs Atilivs Regvlvs, you WILL show respect to a man who has 20 years seniority over you (and has been a senator since before you suckled at your mother's breasts!), has held the praetorship, and has fought in more battles against the enemies of Rome than you!

https://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr309/desertSypglass/qw5.jpg

[/Bean\]

Perhaps you would care to bring this up as an Edict in the upcoming Congressional Session, Regulus?

[The Celtic Viking]

"You mean through an amendment? Yes, I intend to do just that."

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Caius the Fat begins to laugh a deep, rumbling sound that turns into coughing, then wheezing, and almost choking. His face turns a bright red and his eyes bulge as he attempts to catch his breath. Aides swarm to his side with cups of water and wet cloths; but he waves them off as he regains his composure. After taking several deep breaths he speaks in his booming, deep voice,

"Whoever the son-of-a-harlot is who imitates Mars like that, I assure you I've had better representations of the god of war come from my ass in the middle of the night! As for those who deny that our Charter remains unedited, I've had aides retrieve the most recent copy from the alcoves, and as of this moment it still retains some of the original language referring to "the princeps" rather than "the senate". Regulus is correct, and should be applauded for his vigilance.

"At the next Congressional session I and other senatores of like mind shall form a commission and propose an edict that we review the Charter and if it is not entirely corrected, that it be done at that time as well as declare a suitable punishment for Blasio. We certainly must have sequential term limits on these posts. Let all who would, bear the burden of governance and leadership."

[navarro951]

Blasio smirks...

"Propose what you will, I will of course vote against it and the fact that you would consider punishing me disgraces yourself even more. I will no longer argue this. We waste so much time debating whether or not I am a king instead of deciding the direction this Republic is heading in. If I am a tyrant to you, in the end, give me one thing I have ever demanded or forced any of you here to do. I rest my case senators, gentlemen, but some of you here sicken me with your own quest for imaginary inequality and equality."

[navarro951]

"I here by declare the fifth Congressional Council open! It will remain open for debate and legislation until February 21, 2009 at 22:00 PACIFIC ; at which point there will be 48 hours allotted for voting."

"I leave the floor open for debate, all I will announce for now is that I am running for Consul of Finance."

[/Bean\]

Cotta walks into the Curia, amidst a mixed reception. All Senators rose upon his arrival, as per custom to a man holding the Corona Civica. However, some were slow to rise, or with twists of annoyance on their faces. Others smiled broadly, and clapped Cotta on the back as he strolled pas tto his seat. Polite, but unengaging, Cotta simply made his way past his fellow Senators, and to the Curia floor, signalling for the clatter and applause to calm down, amidst the grumbles and sighs.

Gentlemen, thank you for your reception. Yes, I have been long away from Roma. I am here only for the time the congressional session and the voting is in place. My army is camped across the valley from the enemy, and although I doubt not the abilities of my subordinates, I would prefer to be there myself.

I have been informed of the reaction to the question of the aftermath to the Dux Campaign in Illyria. I am well aware of everything said, and I am not here to defend myself or attack others. I am here to push for the Provinical Dictatorship of Illyria Hellenike, and the city of Epidamnos, for a term of two years (OOC: 8 Turns). I plan to use the Legio II to hold it for that length of time, whereupon we should be safe enough to construct a Provincial Legion to hold our interests there.

Therefore, I propose EDICT 5.1-Dux Cotta to be granted the Provincial Dictatorship of Illyria Hellenike (Epidamnos) for a term of two years.

[SwissBarbar]

Avlvs enters the Curia.

Greetings my friends!

He sits on his seat and watches around.


Well, what's going on?

[/Bean\]

Greetings, Avlvs. I have just proposed EDICT 5.1. We are also discussing the next Consuls.

Speaking of which, I will also be running for Consul of the Legions.

[The Celtic Viking]

"Blasio, it is an affront to the gods that you call this a "republic". I thank Marcellus for his support and I fully agree that a punishment is in order. You do not seriously think such criminal offences you have committed would go unpunished, would you?

But first and foremost the important stuff. I have an amendment I'd like to make."

Charter Amendment 5.1: The ranks of Princeps Senatus and Promagistrate in Rule 2.4 should be completely removed. The ownership of Consular Legions should thereby pass to the Consuls.

Pvblivs turns to Cotta.

"You know, I used to be one of your silent supporters, all up until the last Session I believe. I used to think that Marcellus' accusations of you were unfounded and unjust, but the more I learn about you, the more I see that he has actually been right all along. Why do you think you would get to be a dictator, even if "only" over Illyria?

Why is it also that you think you can decide what Legio II is to do? That is all up to the senate. If the senate says it is to march to Hades and back, then that is where it will march, Cotta - regardless of whether you lead it there or not! It is an ever increasingly important distinction to make in times such as these."

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Sulla rises
ahh how typical for Cotta to propose his own ascandence. I have to, well, strongly disagree. Cotta acomplished nothing to make him worthy of such honours. infact the only thing he did do was tell others a plan they could have come up with in their sleep. Tiberius is right cotta deserves no such honour.

[SwissBarbar]

Ah, thanks for the information Dux Cotta.

I second your "EDICT 5.1-Dux Cotta to be granted the Provincial Dictatorship of Illyria Hellenike (Epidamnos) for a term of two years"


Friend Regvlvs, as a member of Legio II, i tell you now, that this legion indeed will march into Hades arse and back, if the senate decides it. But the senate is not only you, but all of us, and we will decide what's best together.

Sulla, if something here is not worthy of any honours it's the words you just spat out. Of course Cotta deserves the highest respect and honours from the senate of rome, on whose command he had spilled his blood! That's beyond question.

[/Bean\]

Cotta angrily steps up.

I am a part of this Senate, Regulus. Do not dare to tell me I have no say in where this legion goes or what it does. If you would even bother to read back over the minutes taken in this Senate, you will see I have said nothing about having overall say in where Legio II is going or what it will be doing I have said I ask for the Senate to agree to allow me to take it to Illyria, to protect our borders.

A Provincial Dictatorship is but a name containing the word Dictator. That does not automatically label me as some sort of deranged tyrant who will stop at nothing until he gets complete power over the world. I am no Emperor, nor do I harbour any thoughts of mutiny against the Republic. It's pathetic that you do nothing but cry over Blasio, and now myself, when you are too dumbwitted to see your just as blind as the rest of us. Your as bad as Tiberius.

However, I do support Charter Ammendment 5.1 , but I do not support the man behind it. You have made too much of a scene with these accusations. Regulus. You have lost my respect. You are an able commander and a stong character, and I comend you for it. However, you have strayed from your path so far that I do not see a way back for you. You are not fighting for the Republic we all savour, no matter how much you think you are right. You complain about everything, and propose how you would make it all better if you had your way. Your no better than anyone else I have encountered.

Cotta stares heatidly at Regulus, before reseating amidst mixed reception.

[The Celtic Viking]

"Mamercus, if you for once opened your ears you would've heard how Cotta explicitly told us how "he had plans for Legio II to stay in Illyria..." That is why I said exactly what exactly what you now try to turn against me: that the senate makes the plans, not he.

Why is it that you are so intent on attacking whatever argument I make, even if you have to do it with the very same one? Cotta must be very happy to have such a loyal minion as you."

Pvblivs turns to Cotta.

"You spoke of your plans for Legio II, as if it was in your power to just command that. I have not implied you are not a part of the Senate, and that you do not have a part in deciding what Legio II is to do. I have objected to how you have implied that the rest of us do not.

As for what you doubtlessly intended as insults, I couldn't take them as anything else than compliments. Tiberius is a fine fellow, a loyal Republican and I am very happy to know I'm regarded "as bad as him". It means I have done something right."

[SwissBarbar]

I don't attack you, I just said that I agree with you, that legion II will march where ever the senate tells it to, didn't you listen?

The Senatores (like you and cotta) make plans. It's the senates task to decide about those plans!

[/Bean\]

I see nothing in this but an attack of jealosy and on me as a potential rival.

[everyone]

Cicero rushes in to the Curia apparently looking busy.

he clears his throat for a short announcement:

"I announce that I shall be running for Consul of the Legions again. there are still some tasks I have yet to complete."

after which he takes his seat and proceeds with scribbling something on a long piece of parchment

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Jealosy? I see a point that needs to be brought up Regvlvs has a right to say what he wants and bring forward topics that could be key to the republics health. even if that talk may be detrimental to you.

[Mooks]

Jealosy? I see a point that needs to be brought up Regvlvs has a right to say what he wants and bring forward topics that could be key to the republics health. even if that talk may be detrimental to you.

Very good point.

[The Celtic Viking]

"Thank you for the support, Sulla."

Pvblivs turns back to Cotta, with occasional sweeping looks around the Curia.

"I must also remind you, Cotta, and all the senate: who was it that, upon hearing my wish to have Legio I improved, refused only because my proposal said nothing about Legio II? Who was it that opposed that proposal of mine, only because he perceived it would give Legio I "an unfair advantage" over the other legions? And who is now accusing me of petty rivalry?

It is you, Cotta."

[/Bean\]

And I stand by that decision. If we all serve the Republic, and we are all supposedly equal, as you keep ranting on about, why should your legion be stronger than the other legions?

[The Celtic Viking]

Pvblivs Atilivs sighs.

"So you admit yourself to being a hypocrite. How... unexpected then, that you would present my argument in a false manner as well.

I have never ever argued that Legio I should be stronger than any other legion just because. I have in fact never said it should be stronger than any other legion period. As I explained to you in the last session, I only suggested an improvement for Legio I because I did not know of the status of Legio II or III, and for that reason I couldn't make a statement about them. I thought that if they needed improvements as well, their commanders, who had better information on their armies than I did, could use their edicts for that.

I can't see how that's unreasonable."

[/Bean\]

Cotta looked afresh at Regulus.

Perhaps we can rediscuss that previous arrangement?

[everyone]

after a few moments of writing and remembering something, Cicero stood up.

"it seems amidst these political arguments, fellow senators have forgotten an issue of greater concern: the Carthaginians."
Cicero's retainer whispers something to him
"what?" Cicero replied.

"oh, my apologies; I had been busy with my tasks that I had forgot to announce something grave: Carthage has declared war on us; they had demanded that we break all ties with Massilia except trade; but that's something every senator here would fiercely oppose, I had refused, though I had attempted a compromise, the Carthaginian ambassador did not change his demands.
I presume some here has already heard the news, but for the sake of those who have not, I have just done so"

"The carthaginians are sure to increase their military presence in areas which we border; which is why I suggest edict 5.2: Legio I be sent to southern Gaul to secure the province of Volcallra and repel the Carthaginian troops there. since Legio I Apulia is the only legion currently which does not face any immediate threats or action; unlike Legio II and III which are operating in Southern Illyria, protecting our newly-acquired lands from the Epirotes and Legio IV which is dealing with the Italic rebels."

Cicero sighs...

"for the sake of protecting the concept of a republic, I am seconding Charter Amendment 5.1, it is better to direct our republic back onto the path of a true republic now, rather than realise, that in a far future, when the title causes civil war, it is too late to act."

(OOC: for those who are not yet aware that we are at war with carthage, please refer to this post: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=2142450 (event 2: The 1st Punic War)

[/Bean\]

I agree, Consul. I am truely sorry to hear about the failure of the Carthaginians to agree to your compromise. However, they have been growing greedy as of late. Although I was against a war on them previously, we must adapt to new situations. Carthage has declared war on us, not the other way around. We must defend ourselves. A strike into southern Gaul would work for us; we would stop their growing sphere of influence. I second Edict 5.2.

I also suggest we send delegations to the cities of Messana and Syracuse. If we can gain their support, we may be able to stop the Carthaginians threatening the Italian mainland, for they will doubtless attempt to attack from their base at Lilybraem.

[SwissBarbar]

I also second edict 5.2 , we need to show strength. It's a shame that we are forced to do so against our own "former" ally, but it's necessary

[everyone]

the strike into Volcallra is so as to defend our western borders more efficiently, our allies' current border at Massilia has few natural defences which only protect the city and not the countryside.
As for Sicilia, I think the tyrant of Syracuse, a man named Hiero, should be viewed with suspicion, his recent activities such as supporting the Carthaginian's troops are of some concern; however I'm not sure about the Messanans.

[The Celtic Viking]

Pvblis Atilivs shakes his head.

"So it has come to war, then? So be it. It has come to Legio I to, alone, enter southern Gaul? So be it. It has come to me to defend the Allies I first helped to secure? So be it. However, if I and Legio I Apvlia is to safely achieve this, I must again request that Legio I be strengthened, in only a slightly modified version of my last proposal:

Edict 5.3: A unit of hastati from Legio I Apvlia should be disbanded and replaced by two units of triarii, and a unit of of accensi from the same replaced with leves.

Neither the Carthaginians nor the Gauls themselves are any laughing matter, and we need any swinging man we can get. If Caius Aurelius or Servivs Sempronivs wish their legions improved as well, they should propose what edicts they can asking for that, and I will give what support they give to my proposal."

[everyone]

"Pardon, Publius Atilius, I think your recent edict may not be valid, for you have already proposed an amendment of our charter; however I think whoever becomes Consul of the Legions next should see to it that all three current legions receive certain improvements requested when they are sent for retraining in Italia."

[SwissBarbar]

As Tribvnvs Plebis and by the power delegated by the Senate of Rome I hereby propose

Edict 5.3.: In Legio II Latium the promotion of 1 unit of Hastati into 1 unit of Principes and one unit of Principes into 2 units of Triarii be accomplished. In addition the Legion be reinforced with 1 unit of leves.




(OOC: please note that I wrote edict 5.3 again, because the number 5.3. from TCV unfortunately is not valid)

[/Bean\]

I second EDICT 5.3

(OOC: Oops, I almost forgot :sweatdrop:)

[Potocello]

"I second CA Amendment 5.1 and I would like to edit Edict 5.3. I think that each Legio should turn 1 unit of Hastati into 1 unit of Principes and one unit of Principes into 2 units of Triarii. In addition the Legion be reinforced with 1 unit of leves.

Each Legio has fought just as hard as Caivs Avrelivs (Cotta) and so should receive the same amount of compensation."

[/Bean\]

Well, aside from that contradicting mine, does that also apply to Legio IV? Their soldiers have seen very little action.

[Potocello]

"Sorry for not clarifying, not the Legio IV"

[/Bean\]

Very well then, I (re)second EDICT 5.3.

However, gentlemen, there is something we've overlooked. We may be superior to Carthage on land, but we don't even have a poor excuse for a navy, let alone a good one. I'm afraid we're going to have to find some solution, or we will be outmanouvered at every turn.

[Potocello]

"I would also like to place my vote for Consul of Legions with Cicero, it is clear he can run the position well."

[/Bean\]

We should do the Consul voting with all the other voting.

[Potocello]

We should do the Consul voting with all the other voting.

I agree, it would certainly make it easier to tally to votes.

I would also like to propose Edict 5.4: The Legio V be commissioned under the command of one our newly promoted Legatii. I would vote that Tiberius Marcellus or Decimus Scipio get command.

[SwissBarbar]

I second Edict 5.4: but vote for my cousin Caivs Aemilivs to be the commander of this army. I request to take him onto the list of possible commanders too

[The Celtic Viking]

"Another legion? Cnaevs Cornelivs, as you have been acting as Consul of Finance, can we really afford that at the moment? This incessant raising of one legion after another is starting to worry my a little."

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Enjoying the lively debate and vitriol being spewed by the members of the Senate, Tiberius gew tired of the bickering, when no clear path was being made through the mess. Freshly dressed in attire suitable for a member of the Curia with his new rank and status, he stood from his seat and walked slowly down the steps, dramatically accentuating words as each foot fell heavily on his way to the Senate floor.

"Fellow Senatores, it is good to be back in your company. While I have been away, growing, learning, fighting, I see that some things, however, never change. There is much talking being done, but little said. You argue without listening, much like children fighting over a new bauble, or women clucking away at the wash. Hear now, what I have to say, and listen, for they are words supported by many senatores of this legislature.

"We would do well to guard against all threats to this Res publica, both foreign and domestic."

Tiberius arrived on the main floor, and bypassed Cotta and Regulus as they watched the events, Cotta's mouth partially open in a twist of confusion and dumbstruck awe at such strong and irreverant words from an established; yet junior member of the body. Tiberius placed a hand on the shoulder of his good friend Caius the Fat and gave it a reassuring pat as he continued to speak,

"Gentlemen, Cauis here voiced many strong opinions - the opinions shared by many here in this room. He is but one who has the courage to speak his voice against the tide of syncophantism. Caius is a good and noble Roman who fought before many of us were born, and who has forgotten more about battle, he casted a gaze at Cotta, and then slowly shifted it to Balbatus, than many of us could ever hope to learn.

"I also have a voice, one that, like Caius' is strong. I also stand here against the tide of syncophantism and nepotism. The time for the conjoined rule of Blasio and his obvious heir-apparent Cotta is at an end! I must therefore second Charter Ammendment 5.1 Let Blasio's reign of terror be over! On the related topic of this dangerous duo, I must speak against Edicts 5.1 and 5.2 They are nothing but self gratification and an obvious grab at kingship. Roma needs its heroes, but it does not need villains - we've enough enemies outside our borders!

"That I might contribute something to this debate, rather than simply inform you all of what is wrong with what you say, I propose to combine Edicts 5.1 and 5.2 with the following changes: Edict 5.5: "That Dux Regulus and Legio I Apulia be granted the ability to remain inside Illyria Hellenike, based in Epidamnos as a military garrison, with the Legio II Latium as a roaming reinforcement against Epirote incursions. Also, that the Legio III Campania be sent to Massalia to guard against Carthaginian attacks. Let the Consular Legio IV Roma continue to fight the rebels in Italia and then station themselves in Rhegion to guard against Carthaginian influence there." I believe this to be a safer alternative, for the Res Publica, as Regulus is always attentive to inform us of abuses in power - more so than any man here. Who can then say that this new territory is in danger of being usurped? Surely no one. Our borders shall remain secure and we will have multiple armies to engage them on every front."

Tiberius paused a moment to bask in the eyes of the Senatores appraising his edict. There were many for it, yet some decidedly against it for one reason or another. It was the undecided ones that he needed to sway. He turned to the other Senators on the floor and continued,

"I also second the new version of Edict 5.3. It is wise that we strengthen our military as a whole, and do not show fvoritism - our enemy certainly won't. As for Edict 5.4, I second it as well, though I will not comment on who should command the Legio, as I am a contender. I, unlike Dux Cotta, do not presume to promote myself. We of the Gens Claudia are better than that. The Senate as a whole should vote on this matter.

"Gentlemen, the times grow dangerous for our Res Publica. Let us not trust our fate to chance, or to men who would make us slaves," Tiberius deliberately raises his arms towards Blasio and Cotta. "I could have used my first Edict to benefit myself or my friends, yet I have chosen to defend the Res Publica with my appointed authority. Stand with me now, Sons of Roma. Stand with the side of right! Stand with freedom! Let us keep power divested amongst many, that all may have the ability to grow and live unmolested by tyrants. Vote for Edict 5.5 and save our Res Publica!"

[Potocello]

"Well Pvblivs Atilivs if we cannot afford another legion then so be it and let Edict 5.4 not pass. However, if we can afford another legion what is stopping us from creating one? It would surely help us in the war to come against Carthage.

I second Edict 5.5"

[everyone]

this is ridiculous, does Tiberius Claudius expect legio I to just sit around in Illyria hellenike just to replace Legio III so that you and your commander may go to some place you have never set foot on before?
For what purpose does Edict 5.5 serve? Legio I is the only legion that could be mobilised instantly, and is the closest to the target stated in Edict 5.2.
But, if you are truly convinced that edict 5.2 is an attempt at attaining "kingship" or whatever you think it means, and think that both your allies and enemies desire kingship, then you must be foolish, and your opinions clouded; Publius Atilius clearly opposes a monarch; unless you also wish to attain kingship, and now feign that you oppose it just to rid off your opponents and change your stand in the future when there are no more 'competitors'.

furthermore, it would be rather wise to create a new legion from the denarii from Illyria, but what exactly should the new legion do? if it has no clear task, it would only be a waste of denarii, since we already have Legio IV available for campaigning, unless Cnaeus Cornelius decides to continue fighting rebels.

(OOC: for some reason, I just thought this debate would get extremely pointless and retarded once Tiberius Claudius Marcellus arrived, and it did.)

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Tiberius turns to face this quite unforseen attack on his character. Deeply shocked at such ridiculous charges, he dramatically feigns having been shot by an arrow.

"Et tu Manius Claudius? I see it has become vogue to throw charges of king-seeking on anyone who disagrees with another. You would do well to listen to your commander Dux Publius Atilius. He knows the truth of the words I speak regarding Dux Caius Aurelius and Consul Cnaeus Cornelius. Your youth and inexperience in matters of the world may excuse your naive outburst with some; but I shall not allow you to run your mouth unabated. I suggest you return to your papers and scrolls concerning unit supply requests and training regimens. You do a fine job there; but in matters of state, you are short-sighted.

"Gentlemen, my proposal of Edict 5.5 is most assuredly completely selfless. More than one Senator agrees that Dux Caius Aurelius' motives are about as pure as a midden heap. We also know that Dux Publius Atilius is a man of honor who seeks no glory for himself, save what the Senate graciously bestows upon him. He is a true son of Roma and when you cut him he bleeds the Res Publica. I have proposed that he and the First Legio protect Epidamnos and its surrounding lands not in any attempt to remove them from the minds of the Senate in some obscure banishment, but instead to be Freedom's guarding savior against the unhealthy schemes of Caius Aurelius Cotta Cnaeus Cornelius Scipio.

"The First Legio is ready, willing, and able to defend Roma, so let her stand guard against our enemies from Epiros .....and our enemies from within. It is by keeping the Legio II Latium within sight of the Legio I Apulia that I feel most comfortable with the safety and continuity of the Res Publica. Is that such an ignoble task, Manius Claudius? Is that beneath you? Though, if you're not up to the task, if you feel yourself incapable, I agree that your masked admission of it here is a manly step from one such as yourself. Thank you for your honesty up front regarding what an incapable officer you are and the lack of faith you have in your men. Publius Atilius, you know him better than I; but I must send my condolences that your subordinate feels so negatively about you and your command.

"Getting back on track to my reasoning for stationing the Legios I and II in Illyria, the entire Senate is up in arms about Caius Aurelius' desire to be a king over us, let us prevent him from obtaining any sort of Provincial Dictatorship until he has improved his ignominious stature with us. Yes, he led a successful campaign; but he is not the conquering hero so many of you imagine him to be.

"In proposing that the Legio III Campania be sent to guard Massalia, I hoped to earn more combat experience for the men who serve under Dux Servius Sempronius. We acknowledge having fought fewer battles than the other legios, but it is in doing, that one becomes stronger. It is most unwise to let one leg be stronger than the other lest you walk with a limp. It is for the good of the Res Publica that the Third Legio meet our enemies from Carthago. If you doubt our skill at arms or our will to fight, then shame on you. I invite you to address our men in person when they reach Italia and you can look them in the eyes and tell them that they do not meet the expectations of a "Senator".

Tiberius paused, taking a drink from a cup of water that was set off to the side. He thought of the flow of events in his mind and it struck him that he had not touched on an important matter.

"The commisioning of a fifth legio is indeed an imortant decision, and, should it be made, I suggest that it be sent to the south with the Consular Legio IV Roma to invade Sicilia with feint maneuvers and cut off our Carthaginian enemy's supply routes and confuse them. With that added pressure from the south, they will have more decisions to make regarding their forces in the north. Each time a decision is made, so too can a mistake be made. By cutting off grain shipments - or at least causing them to go around Sicilia to the west rather than through the straights of Messana we will deprive our enemy of vital food stores. We also have the potential to increase our coffers and control a greater portion of the Middle Sea, placing us in a more opportune spot, should the day ever come, on launching an attack into Afrika and assaulting Carthago itself! Yes, those are plans for the future; but good planning is necessary well in advance of any great undertaking."

[everyone]

"matters of state?" Cicero nearly spat "I see edict 5.5 as mererly a tool you use to further the political ambitions and standing of yourself; though you may not wish to be 'king'"

"and Are you not a better person to trust when dealing with 'king seekers'? you have already accused around a quarter of the men here to support the idea of a monarch, surely you could put your abilities to better use defending Illyria from being brought under the rule of a king both within our midst and foreign ones?"

"Yes it is a rather ignoble task, awaiting to spill the blood of a fellow Roman, though he may wish to be 'king'; you speak as if Legio II was an army of Epirus. But if Legio I were to sent there with the task of solely repelling Epirote troops, it would be more noble; but the way you're phrasing its rationale, makes it not sound very reasonable."

"The idea that Legio IV and Legio V, if the latter is to be commissioned, invade Sicily is a reasonable idea, but what would happen to our border at Liguria, would we leave it unguarded and allow Gaulish warbands to freely pass through it, raid a town or two, and wander back north?"

[Mooks]

If war is to be declared on Carthrage, I want all to note that we have extensive trade with Carthrage. And that might put us in the hole a little bit on the finance side, even with the new mines in Illyria.

And on the "who gets to go where" side. I propose a compromise. Legio I goes to Massilia if Legio III is able to retrain as soon as possible and renew the war on Epirus, take the fight closer to her homeland.

[everyone]

"War is not declared on Carthage, Carthage had declared war on us; nobody in the Curia could have foresaw that. We have been forced into war by what was once our 'ally'
and as I stated before (OOC: darn, I didn't say it here but in the OOC thread, anyway) Legio III would be the first to be retrained, followed by Legio I or II, depending on the circumstances."

[The Celtic Viking]

Pvblivs laughs a little, with a friendly smile on his face.

"Tiberius Claudius, with your breath you blow the scent of sweet honey on me, but with your hands you would plant the equivalence of manure under my feet. Surely you don't think I would let such sweet talk cloud my mind that easily?

It was a good attempt, though: you almost had me for a minute there. Regardless of your political concern, Legio I is the only feasible choice for meeting the Carthaginians, and though I did not wish for this war - as I made clear to Consul Manivs Clavdivs before he set out to negotiate - I am not one to back down from my duties to Rome, as I believe I have shown here in the Curia plenty already. Legio I is the only logical choice when Legio II and III already have their own duty in Illyria, so I will have to trust your own vigilance to keep Rome safe. It is not so much inferior to that of my own so it won't cover my absence."

Pvblivs bows to Tiberius Claudius, and then turns to Decimvs.

"Ah, but Decimvs Cornelivs, that's not really a compromise, is it? That is just trying to use one situation to justify a completely different one: it's trying to use the existence of one edict in an attempt to sneak in a completely unrelated, so to say. What you and Tiberius Claudius seem to be doing is a typical example of bait and switch, and it's a fraud."

[/Bean\]

For what reasons should the Legio II suddenly be banished from the theatre of war? Exactly what have we done to deserve such a turn of events? Asked for a province to govern in the name of the Senate, no less? Is that such a crime? Fine, I would withdraw my request if I thought it would get me anywhere.

Pvblivs Atilvs, I am glad you do not fall for this man, Tiberius Claudius. He is little more than a lying snake, who in one breath denounces all that I do, only to copy it in a more disguised manner. I may not have developed a sense of embelishment and garnish in what I say or ask for, but why should that mean anything less. I am a soldier, I do not need pretty words and sweet nothings to ask for the things I want.

And as you, Pvblivs Atilvs, believe, the legions should not be used as political tools for enhancement and recognition. If we look past the commanding officers for a moment and see just the legions, where is the idea spring from that it would be better to bring Legio III back to Italy, retrain it and then send it to Illyria for the frontlines, when Legio II is already there. This is nothing more than your attempt to raise yourself higher than anyone else. Your not even the commander of said legion for the Gods sakes!

I hope you realise I have received absoultely nothing for the success of the Dux Campaign last year. No riches, no promotions, and the only recognition I received was that I only could have done better. I am not asking now for riches and promotions; I have no need for such mental strains on my body and mind. What I want is recognition, a little respect for the success of our first large scale overseas invasion. Can you not grant me that?

[The Celtic Viking]

"I am... surprised, to say the least, of this new speech of yours, Caivs Avrelivs. Was it all directed at me? Because I do not see how much of it applies to anything I have said.

But as for the part about keeping Legio III in Illyria, I think that is the wisest because Massalia could be better covered by Legio I, and Syracuse by the Consular Legion, so I see no reason to abort their current objective to keep Illyria firmly secure from any intrusion from Greece. Legio II is there already, but if that is a valid objection, then the very same goes for every other front as well!

But I do see your argument, though, and it brings one thing to my attention: the Boii. We cannot forget the Gauls! If Legio I goes past Massalia, Legio II stays in Illyria, Legio III either stays in Illyria or invades Greece while Legio IV makes sure the Carthaginians don't come through Sicilia, who will be covering the northern border? It would be completely open for the Boii, or any other of those barbarians! Perhaps it's better if Legio III gets stationed in Bononia to guard against such an incursion?"

Pvblivs is about to sit down again, but quickly rises.

"Oh, and as for your wish for recognition, if I have forgotten to congratulate you, then you must forgive me. There has, after all, been a lot of my mind lately, and it's hard to keep trace of every small thing. I have never meant to diminish what you have actually done, but only tried to keep the praise at sensible levels. And", Pvblivs adds, "I don't think you could call the spoils in Illyria "nothing". It may not be as much as you would get from Greece, but it should be enough to satisfy any pirate's greed."

[/Bean\]

My last speech was directed in anger at you, Pvblivs Atilvs; rather I was thanking you for not falling for Tiberius Marcellus' flowery words.

I agree that Legio III should be sent north. The Alps are only a barrier for those over the other side. We still have the Insurburgs, the Boii and other Gallic tribes within our midst. They do not honour treaties or ceasefires. They raid, kill, sleep, whenever they want to. If we refuse completely to station men in the north, whats to stop them sweeping down the length of Italia and attacking Roma herself? Our legions will be at opposite ends of the Republic. We cannot have that.

It should be Legio III's job, seeing as they need to travel back to Italia for retraining anyway, whereas Legio II is able to stay in Illyria for a while yet. Once retrained, Legio III can set about contructing forts at the rivers and bottlenecks to the north, and any other natural defensive position. If we shall we are strong, our enemies will look elsewhere for easier raiding targets.

And upon my acquring of riches in Illyria, yes, I received the same amount as every man in the Legio II. I do not make differentiate between rank and birth as Legion Commander, and will not allow my officers to do so either. Extra rations or pickings go to those who have fought the best, the bravest and the most sacrificial. Any extra hoardings acquired in the pirate expidition go to the people of Roma and other cities in Italia. We are a nation of citizen soldiers-the citizens should share in their soldiers' victories.

[The Celtic Viking]

(OOC: please note that I wrote edict 5.3 again, because the number 5.3. from TCV unfortunately is not valid)

OOC: After seeking counsel with Navarro, it appears that mine was, in fact, valid as I do have one amendment and one edict as a Dux. Since so much confusion arose, I will quote it here and anyone who wish to second it can second it now. SwissBarbar's is, unfortunately, invalid for this reason.


Edict 5.3: A unit of hastati from Legio I Apvlia should be disbanded and replaced by two units of triarii, and a unit of of accensi from the same replaced with leves.

[/Bean\]

Cant one of them just become Edict 5.6?

[The Celtic Viking]

OOC: Of course. Once SwissBarbar changes that, his edict will be correct and "secondable" too.

[/Bean\]

But Servivs Sempronivs has already modified Avlvs Aemilius' Edict, which, if resubmited, would contradict your Edict 5.3. Is that agreeable with you?

[The Celtic Viking]

"Avlvs Aemilivs has not allowed the change, so if he resubmits the edict correctly in the way it is currently stated, it does not contradict mine at all. However, I have decided to edit my own, in an attempt to get it all in one:


Edict 5.3: The following changes should be made:

Legio I Apvlia and Legio III Campania should have 2 Hastati changed into 2 Principes, 2 Principes into 2 Triarii, 1 Accenci to 1 Leves, as well as one unit of Rorarii recruited.
OOC: IG terms, this is 1 Hastati and 1 Accenci disbanded and 2 Triarii, 1 Leves and 1 Rorarii raised.

Legio II Latium should have 3 units of Hastati made into 3 units of Principes, 2 units of Principes made into 2 units of Triarii and 1 Accenci replaced with 1 Leves. 2 new units of Hastati should also be raised.
OOC: IG terms, this is 1 Hastati and 1 Accenci disbanded, and 1 unit of Principes, 2 units of Triarii and 1 unit of Leves raised.

This way Legio I, II and III will all consist of 2 Hastati, 2 Principes, 2 Triarii, 1 Accenci, 1 Leves, 1 Eqvites and 1 Rorarii. I think that is the best way to have it, and no Legio will get a greater reward than the other."

(Edit OOC: Edict put in a quote box to more easily separate it from the rest of the post.)

[/Bean\]

I agree, and reresecond Edict 5.3

[SwissBarbar]

OOC: I wasn't here the whole day, so I couldn't allow the change of number. But it's obvious that I would want my edict to be valid so most obviously I'd allow the change of the number (please, let's not be excessively bureaucratic). But TCV's solution is fine as well. thanks


Patres Conscripti, I withdraw my edict for obvious reasons, and also second edict 5.3 which kindly was overworked by Pvblivs Atilivs. Accept my thanks.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

"In regards to Publius Atilius' Edict 5.3 being re-clarified I second it. We also have yet to hear from the junior Senatores who have recently been elected. Gentlemen, speak your minds. Do not let old windbags and raised voices deter you. You are one of us, and your input is desired and needed so that we have a better picture of what the body thinks.

"Caius Aurelius, asking for rewards and to be assigned certain ranks is not a crime; but it is not the behaviour of a noble man. You act as a beggar on the street corner eeking out alms in the muck by feigning blindness or lameness. You are a Dux of the Res Publica, act like one! It is one thing to run for a publicly elected office and quite another to place yourself in the nomination process for a position of political appointment. You, like each of us, are to be granted what the Senate and the People of Roma deem fit for you. To request anything personal at all is ungracious and reveals your greedy character.

"While I do not speak for Dux Servius Sempronius, the Third Legio is more than capable of handling the barbarians to the north, and is willing to assist the First should they require aid against the armies of Carthago. However, Dux Caius Aurelius and the Second legio must be watched, for I do not trust him as far as I can throw him. It concerns me greatly that a man who was so opposed to our intial idea to invade Greece now demands that he be stationed there, ready to continue 'the good fight', as it were. Where was your support when we needed it to begin with, Caius Aurelius? Fellow Senatores, he witheld it to advance his own proposition to bring himself further glory and honor - honors which I and others believe are only worthy of an Ovation. No triumphus indeed!" Multiple Senatores, including Caius the Fat, cheered their agreement. Tiberius looked up into the seating and raised his voice that it could be heard adequately in the cavernous hall, "Servius Sempronius, what say you of the destiny of the Legio III?"

[/Bean\]

I still do not support an invasion of Greece. Greece has conducted no wrongs on Roma, and how can we punish one that has commited no crime? It is Epirus that holds my eyes, and it is in Illyria that I intend to fight him. Only on the will of the Senate or if a crisis befitting such an action would arise would I turn the Legio II to invade Greece. They are not our enemies.

(OOC: Greece is still only the Peloponesus [I know thats spelt wrong], Attika and Aietolia. Epirus, Thessaly and Makedonia are seperate from Greece. Therefore, attacking Greece would be attacking the cities held my the KH, who are not enemies.)

[navarro951]

"Dux Regvlvs, apart from our many disagreements, I do agree that Legio I is very suitable with taking the fight to the Carthaginians. However, it saddens me that you have shown a bit of doubt towards the men of Legio IV. If you legio is to march from massilia into say, Iberia, then why not allow Legio IV to take sicila. At our hands, we could pinch the Carthaginians into chaos and they would be easily defeated. That would leave their great trading ports at Sardin and Corsica to be taken as well. What say you?"

[Potocello]

"I too resecond Edict 5.3

As for the fate of the Legio III. It is clear that the men of the Legio III are more than capable of defending against the barbarians in the north, yet i do not feel that our fight lies in the north. It seems to me that we ought to apply our assets to the defense or continued conquest in Ilyria or the war with Carthage. Rather than sending the Legio IV to Sicily send the Legio III. The Legio IV could then be in charge of defending the north as well as putting down the rebel uprisings, which seem to be popping up all around our state. With the combined experience of the Legios I and III sicily would fall easily to our forces. Also, if we vote to commission another Legio, defense of both Ilyria and the north would be made even easier. However, where the Legio III ends up fighting is in your hands."

[/Bean\]

It is now obvious that each Legion commander wishes his legion to be in the thick of the action. We must, however, remain practical. I am no friend of Tiberius Claudius, that much is well known. I do not, however, have any argument with Servivs Sempronivs or Pvblivs Atilivs. Although the north is not a promising tour of duty for the moment, it is the Legio III who are the most practical legion to be sent there. The rebels will soon be dealt with, and I dare say an entire consular legion would have no trouble in defeating the Carthaginians in Sicilia, even if they did reinforce their ranks with more troops from Afrika or even allied themselves with the city of Syracuse.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Speaking to Servius Sempronius,

"Well said, sir, well said. Quite the interesting proposal, one that I must say could bear much fruit. If the Legio I is garrisoned in Massalia, with the Legio IV as added defense in Bononia, then the Legio II and a newly created Legio V could defend Illyria from Epirote counter attacks, leaving the Legio III to guard the southern border of Italia, possibly even conducting feints into Sicilia in order to draw Carthaginian attention away from southern Gaul. If opportunity presented itself, we could even annex the good people of Messana and offer them protection from the Carthaginian menace.

"Senatores, this proposal bears much merit and should be considered as a proper replacement and compromise to the conflicting opinions of how we should wage this uninvited war. I beseech you to not listen to the plans of Dux Caius Aurelius Cotta. He is not to be trusted. Why is the Third Legio the most practical to be sent to the north? The Consular Legio IV is already in Italia, they are closer. Let the Legio III Campania sail back to Italia and march southwest to Rhegion. We've enough man power to hold off the Carthaginians, especially should the people of Messana welcome us as their protectors. It is nonsensical to follow Caius Aurelius' decision."

[desert]

"Do you refer to those vile brigands who slaughtered all of Messana's original inhabitants and took the city for their own, Tiberivs Clavdivs? Although, I suppose they ARE your kind of people!" jeered an anonymous senator from within the crowd.

[/Bean\]

Cotta laughed

Not to be trusted? Because I don't agree with you? Be realistic, Tiberius Claudius. You can't make these senators turn against me just because your not always getting your way due to me not agreeing with you. Anyone can see through that.

And I have to agree with the Senator who shouted out just now. Would you really wish to ally yourself with vile criminals? These man aren't trustworthy. They acquired the city of Messana through bloodshed and trickery. Romans do not ally with scum like that. They're just as likely to stab us in the back.

And who else is there? The Syracusians? Bah! What would they have to gain with an alliance with Roma? True, they have fought with Carthage before, but we are a dangerous third part to them. Whose to say who they will side with.

[The Celtic Viking]

Pvblivs speaks quietly for himself while shaking his head gently.

"This session is unendurable with all these false accusations..."

Pvblivs stands up and looks at Cnaevs.

"When have I ever commented on how Legio IV would fare in Sicilia? Please do not presume my stance on something before I have even gotten a chance to speak for myself of the matter.

However, I think you seriously underestimate the Carthaginians. Your men have only fought one battle against some petty bandits, and though I do not wish to diminish what they actually did, they are still green troops, and you have to take that into consideration. What makes you think it would be easy to defeat the Carthaginians? They aren't weak, what with their mercenaries and elephants, so don't take claim victory in a battle you have neither won, nor even persuaded the senate should happen!

Before you misrepresent my words again, I am not saying the senate shouldn't allow Legio IV to enter Sicilia, not at all. I do think it would be foolish for any of our legions to enter there before proper defence has been established in the north, however, and when we do enter Sicilia - for at some point we must - then we should not enter it with freshly raised troops thinking we're going to an easy fight. "Pride comes before fall", as they say, and many a general have lost only because he didn't take proper precautions against the enemy he thought to be inferior. Don't make the same mistake they did.

Also", Pvblivs turned to Tiberius, "Legio I is not to be garrisoned in Massalia, that is not what the edict says, nor do I think the Massalians would allow it. It calls for us to march beyond Massalia and take Tolosa, in the province of Volcallra and defend them there. You may just have misspoke, but I think it's important to be completely sure everyone's in the clear of what has been put forth, especially since we all have responsibility in voting for - or against - them."

[/Bean\]

We seem to all be forgetting the most important issue. How are we to combat the Carthaginians' undeniable superiorty in naval power?

[SwissBarbar]

A strong navy unfortunately is even more expensive than a legion. We really have to think about economic supply before we think about deploying warships. Not to forget our lack of experienced admirals..

[/Bean\]

Without any form of navy, how can we even discuss invading Sicilia? We would be completely outmatched. It would be a repeat of the Peloponnesian War, except Athens, or in this case Carthage, would have a much greater land power and possible allies than Athens ever had. A stalemate would be the best we could possibly hope for.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

"To the anonymous coward, supported by Cauius Aurelius, I say that 'Right, as the world goes, is only in quesition between equals in power; while the strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must.' " Gentlemen, we are at war, a war we did not ask for. For those of you who have fought, you know that war is unforgiving and often requires doing unsavory things or dealing with unsavory people. I say that this is one of those times that we must get dirty and deal with the inhabitants of Messana to help fight our mutual enemy. Let the Legio III Campania and Consular Legio IV Roma do just that. The new legio, when it is created, can come to defend the northern border.

"As far as a navy is concerned, we absolutely will need one in the future; but I propose that we use small fishing vessels to ferry the forces by cover of darkness onto Sicilia. We won't need an extended fleet to transport any supplies and we won't run the risk of pirates smashing our volunteers. The entire maneuvers would be completed before anyone knew they had begun, with those who supplied the vessels risking nothing."

The map allows us to walk there so we don't really need a navy to get there. IRL the crossing is only 6 miles and easily doable in a single night

Turning to Publius Atilius, "Thank you, good friend. I was not as aware of the suggested plan of battle as I had thought. I still support the decision to send the Legio I out from Massalia to aid our allies against the Carthaginians in southern Gaul."

[desert]

'Right, as the world goes, is only in quesition between equals in power; while the strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must.'

"Said the Athenians 6 months before they invaded Sicily...and we all know what happened to them!

A very grave statement to make just before Roman soldiers set out to do the same..."

[/Bean\]

Crossing to Sicilia is not the issue, Tiberius Claudius. How can we fight an enemy properly when they can move anywhere on water faster than we can on land? What would the main objective of the campaign in Sicilia be? Taking Lilybraem? How do you propose we do that? We cannot starve them out; they can effortlessly resupply themselves with food and men from their port unchallenged, while Roman soldiers, far from home and any help, stuggle and die in the field. Our coast will be ravaged and villages and towns pillaged by Punic fleets, just as the Illyrian Pirates did on our eastern coast. The people would denounce this war, and then where would we be?

Unfortunately, we have neither the skills nor the funds to construct a navy able to deal with this threat. I don't have many answers, but I can safely say that invading Sicilia is either going to be an unlikely victory, or a victory at such a high cost we may not recover.

(OOC: Although factors like this cannot be represented in the game, we must do them here for roleplay reasons. I don't really see how Lilybraem or Syracuse would have to worry too much when we have no navy whatsoever. They could endlessy resupply and land troops behind us to cut off our supply lines, which would defeat any land based army we sent. An impossible to win situation, really. We're better off stopping them invading Italia, while our main attack happens in Iberia.)

[Mooks]

I say we scour the beaches for downed Carthaginian ships and attempt to replicate them.

(Please, please get the historical reference.)

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Tiberius rubs his hand down his face in frustration, he doesn't know how to make what has already been said any more simple. He takes a deep breath and tries again,

"Caius Aurelius, the objective is not to necessarily conquer anything in Sicilia. As I said before at the beginning of this argument, the maneuver would be a "feint" - any teenager beginning proper military schooling knows the definition of the word. We would send the armies forth to draw attention away from the north, alleviating the situation in Gaul. With Carthage forced to fight on two fronts, it opens the opportunity for mistakes on their part. If we were to be so fortunate as to be able to annex Messana and its surrounding lands without a fight by offering those people protection from Carthage then we would have won quite a victory without shedding a drop of blood."

Tiberius paces as he speaks, accentuating his words with hand and arm movements, demonstrating the principles he is discussing.

"Should we be able to convince the city of Messana to ally with us and close the straights to Carthaginian shipping then they would be forced to go the long way around Sicilia to the west and add months to any journey into northern or middle Italia or to reinforce or resupply their armies in southern Gaul. Remember, the Syracusians are no friends of Carthago and would prefer if Carthaginian influence were removed from their area. If they will not directly ally with us at this time, they most certainly won't stand against us - for the time being. If our armies actually came into conflict with the limited forces already on Sicilia, we could certainly handle them and still have time and strength to strategically redeploy to Italia - or Messana - and rearm. It is nearly impossible that we could be surrounded or cut off from retreat as long as we don't stray too far inland, and remember that we are there as a distraction."

[The Celtic Viking]

Pvblivs clears his throat.

"Gentlemen, Consul and honourable members of the Senate; I'd like to announce that I will be running for Consul of Finance for the next term."

Pvblivs bows.

[/Bean\]

Cotta sighs and looks wearily at Tiberius.

I see what you want to happen, Tiberius Claudius, but it's not plausible. One move from the Punic fleet, and the straits will be cut off. Messana or no Messana, our legion will not have access to enough supplies or shelter. They will be whitled down and destroyed. This cannot be allowed to happen. If we are to move against Sicilia, we should prepare this distraction of yours on our side of the straits only. Make it appear as if we are planning to cross. We would also be able to defend against any Punic attempt to cross the straits themselves.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Tiberius stops as he was about to speak and looks at Publius Atilius, clearly confused

"Publius Atilius, you seek a post - which I believe you would be excellent in - when you plan to lead your Legio against a determined enemy? While I don't doubt your vigor or your determination; but can it be so? I fear you would be torn assunder from the burdens. I admit that we have a shortage of capable senators at the moment, yet there must be another way?

For RP purposes, even though we don't have lots of players, shouldn't we limit the roles our avatars take to be more realistic. E.G. if you're CoF or CoL you would be in Roma and therefore not out with your legion fighting battles because of all the beuracratic work that would consume your time. Thoughts?

"Caius Aurelius, I do not believe that simply keeping troops on our side of the border will do anything to deter the Carthaginians. We have kept them on our side since the treaty was signed and look where we are now. There should be an incursion to draw their attention away. One small victory, or even simple field burning and pillaging of small towns will cause stories to spread and to grow. Before you know it, all of Carthago will think Sicilia itself is sinking into the sea while being overrun by Romans on their way to raze their capitol. If we cannot send an entire legion, then let us send one or two smaller, dedicated forces who will be better able to obtain their own supplies and keep themselves hidden more easily. These guerrillas will pester and harass the enemy, causing them to think we are more numerous than we are. If we ambush Carthaginian patrols we will leave their bodies in plain site to be found by all, hacked mercilessly to death.

"I volunteer to lead such men."

[/Bean\]

An interesting proposal. But I'm not sure you would be fit to lead men on such a mission. There will be no cusions and honey glazed meat for you, Tiberius Claudius. No slaves, dancing girls or musicians. You'd be living in the roughest of the rough. No city on Sicilia will offer Roman troops protection at night, especially just simple raiding units. The Carthaginians are in their own territory in Sicilia, guarded by money, alliances and knowledge as well as men and walls. I do not doubt your courage, Tiberius Claudius. But I say let us waste men on some other erranc. It's a pointless exbidition that would result in all the Romans' deaths. I cannot vote for that.

[The Celtic Viking]

"Tiberivs Clavdivs, I am well aware of the problems, though I believe I could work through them. After all, Manivs Clavdivs managed to be Consul of the Legions when we were in Massalia, and when we were fighting in the Illyrian campaign. He did a splendid job, in my opinion, so I see no reason why I couldn't work through it all.

Regardless, I will have you know I stand up in this race out of necessity, not for any other reason. Besides me now, the only other contestant for the position as Consul of Finance is Cnaevs Cornelivs, and if CA 5.1 goes through, he will become a tribune - and thus ineligible for it. If no one else than him had stood up for the job, and CA 5.1 goes through, then we would've stood without any candidate for the position. That is why I waited so long to announce it.

Is here anyone who would take the responsibility, stay in Rome and devote his time to the consulship, and who would be unaffected by said CA?"

OOC: It like the idea, but it shouldn't be necessary. A plus, at best, since we may not always have someone active enough, as well as eligible for the position, who's also not currently leading an army.

[navarro951]

Council will go on for 24 more hours.

[navarro951]

I second edict 5.5.

[mini]

Qvintvs Aemilivs followed the debates in the house with devotion, yet did not speake due to his junior status.
Having received a weeks leave from the military arena, he had intended to spend as much time as he could in the political arena, as a man should be an able fighter in both if he wished to reach the curule chair of the consul.

For days he has watched the constant bickering. Being raised with the eminent stories any young Roman hears about the heroes that perpetrate Rome's history, this week of sitting in the senate had quickly disillusioned Qvintvs Aemilivs.
Instead of a noble body of men, amicable and respectful to a man's peers, he found the Senate more like a bucket filled with crabs. Instead of cooperating to get out, everyone who got anywhere near getting out was hauled back by the majority.
It was each man's Dignitas & Auctoritas for himself. Disgusted of the situation, he stood up.

"Conscript fathers present today, both consuls permit me these words" he said rising, waiting for a nod from the presiding consul. Whom gave one ever so slightly to one so young as Qvintvs Aemilivs.

"I do realise I am only a young man. To some I might be greener than the vast grass plains of Galatia. Nevertheless I am a Roman senator. As I have been taught, a Senator is the shining example of what a Roman should be." He gazed around the curia. He wasn't considered a great rethoric, yet he spoke an impeccable Latin.
"Intelligent. Brave. Determined. Educated. CIVIL" the last word being pressed. "The kind of senator we present to the foreign world as to why Rome has thrown out her kings, and continues to thrive nonetheless." A slight pause, his throat drying up. Being his first speech, he knew he had to make a good effort here, or his political carreer was over before it began.
"To the world, the Curia stands for the majesty of the senate. Has been doing so for centuries."With a movement of his arm, he indicated the building he was standing in.
"However, to those who actually enter the senate, the truth is revealed. The Curia is a dry, muf building, long surpassed by it's purpose. And today, I have realised it is the same for those that enter it" he finished his preoration.

"DRY. MUF. BITTERED. VENAL." he thundered. "Whereas the senate should vie for the advancement of Rome, the most of what I've seen here is for the advancement of ones self, ones friend or preventing the exact same advancing of others." He took a deep breath.

"I will not mention names, nor will I point a finger. I realise I am still young, and should not teach lessons to men more senior than me. Yet I felt it my duty to speak of what has transpired here lately, as I am brought up by my father to be my best for the sake of Rome. I would call on everyone's sense of honour here, to do the same. To conclude my speech, I owuld like to second edict 5.3."

Qvintvs Aemilivs sat down, almost panting

[/Bean\]

Cotta stands.

Ah, young Qvintvs Aemilivs, the second cousin of my good friend Avlvs Aemilivs. I have had little chance to get to know you yet, and I would take the chance now to welcome to the Curia; but it seems it is not somewhere that seems welcoming to you.

I'm afraid there is more to the Curia than the simple minds of Roma perceive it to be. Great men do indeed reside in this hall, young Aemilius, but it is a consequence of freedom that we argue. Far better to argue than to suffer in silence, do you not believe. That is why I love the Republic; any man, no matter his status or position, may speak his mind freely and without worry, and more often than not he is listened to. There are even the occasions when that man's words affect us so greatly that we completely change our perspective of something. This is the gift of freedom.

So do, please speak your mind in here, Qvintvs Aemilivs, and be sure that your opinion will always be welcomed, if not always appreciated fully. Without speakers, we are dumb to the world. Without ears to listen and eyes to see we are ignorant, and without minds free to imagine and the power to act we are useless. We, as a Republic, have all these things, and we must be thankful for it.

[SwissBarbar]

Qvintvs Aemilivs, my dear cousin, welcome to the Senate! Don't hesitate to say your opinion, that's the way of the Aemilii

[mini]

"Your welcome warms me Caivs Avrelivs, and it is much appreciated. I do not deny that arguements are a necessity in order to reach decisions. I was merely pointing out that discussions should be about what's good for Rome, not what's good for oneself. I mean no offence to any of these august senators present here today. I just felt the comment should be made"

[/Bean\]

And that is the subject of my speech, Qvintvs Aemilivs. The trouble is, each Senator has a different idea of what is the best of Roma. Although this is not always commendable and can seem to be a vain attempt to elevate oneself above the rest, it is also out main strength above other, lesser nations of man, and certainly beast.

We can provide a wide array of questions and theories, and an equably wide array of answers to these questions with our unique and elite grouping of Senators here in this house.

[mini]

"Let us not talk about the subject no more, and concentrate on what matters! My thanks again for the welcome everybody"

[navarro951]

Council will end in one hour!

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Tiberius rises from his seat and turns to face the Pinceps Senatus, trying hard to conceal the surprised look on his face.

"Cnaeus Cornelius, many thanks are owed to you for giving my proposed Edict 5.5 the necessary number of secondings, that it might reach the ballot for voting. I will admit that this is an unexpected turn of events and am greatful."

With a bow, the humbled senator takes his seat, obviously lost in thought.

[/Bean\]

Gentlemen, let us make sure we have made all the edicts we wish to, and that they have all be sufficiently seconded

[navarro951]

"Good Tiberius, despite all political opposition, I am always open to thoughtful planning. I see your idea a sound plan, and also believe all our proposals here should at least be allowed a proper voting. And i have one last CA to propose.

CA 5.2:That if there is no standing praetor to give sponsorship, a Quaestor may start a family/house with a voting by the senate.

OOC: We have 3 players who will be Quaestors soon im sure as new conflicts will be arising. So I think it is for the best as we are now about sure where we will all stand as far has political alliances go. This CA will probably be added to the "Forming a House/Family" rule.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Tiberius quickly stands up and eagerly announces,

"I second Charter Ammendment 5.2. Come Senatores, let there be another who still remains in the chambers to support this idea."

[navarro951]

Also on that note, the senate may hate for this, but I will support my good friend Cottas edict 5.1.

[/Bean\]

Thank you for your support, Blasio, and I also second CA 5.2

[navarro951]

I hereby declare that the time for proposing legislation has passed! Voting will begin shortly. There will be a two day period allocated for voting. Voting will end at 2pm PAC on Wednesday, February 23 or upon the time all senators have voted.

[/Bean\]

Cotta returns from the votings, and seeks out the figure of Blasio.

Consul, I thank you for your support in Edict 5.1, but I cannot help but notice that you have also seconded Edict 5.5, that states that Legio II and I (OOC: myself, not Legio I) will not be positioned in Edpidamnos, but are to remain as a reserve legion. You seem to be contradicting several edicts that you have supported with 5.5. It would also stop 5.2 from happening for one. How can you answer this?

[navarro951]

"Well there are two ways I would go about it. You could simply switch the plan. (OOC: Legio I is the roaming force and Legio II is the garrison.) I also had to factor in that you would be allowed a Provincial Legio as well, should it pass, meaning you would have extra forces. In the end I dont see how they completely contradict each other."

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Tiberius, also having just returned from voting laughs out loud, the hearty sound echoing throughout the mostly-empty Curia

"Because by doing so he can publicly claim no favorites, thus keeping us divided. I am sure he supports your motion more than mine; but he knows the game too well. We shall see whose proposal holds the most water."

OOC: Navarro got a post in before I did.

[/Bean\]

Well, you have voted to push Legio I into Gaul, while also wanting them to go to Illyria...what with Dux Regulus' complaints at the pace I set in the Illyrian campaign, I don't think he will be best pleased with the amount of walking your giving him here

[navarro951]

"To be honest, I am indeed seeing whose Edict holds most water. I have chosen to strip the titles of Princeps, Promagistrate, and I seconded a political opponents Edict. The senators here call me unfair, well they can chew on that. If they should both pass, the senate should simply let the commanders discuss who will do what. Mixing the plan will not make things any worse. Legio I can leave to Gual or stay in Illyria. Legio II can stay with you if you get your Provincial Governorship. We cant assume that edict will pass so we must also be aware it could be Legio II being sent to Gual should you not get your province." Blasio Smiles "Be patient my friend, let us see what the senate truly wants, and then decided what is truly best"

[/Bean\]

Should the province not be passed to me, then I will gladly draw a lot with the other commanders. This is what we have always done.

However, should it be passed, I do not want the issue of having to control a province from the other side of the world.

[navarro951]

"yes, obviously a fine point. I think if it passes then Legio II can roam Illyria as a defense. You prov.legio can defend Epidamnos, as they are not for offensives on the most part. Legio I can also defend Illyria or go to Gual while Legio III marches to Massalia. If I am still Consul when the voting is over, I will take Legio IV to Rhegion after dealing with the rebels and watch over the Carthaginian border in Sicilia."

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Tiberius returns to the chamber, several aides in tow, all of whom are laden with scrolls and parchments

"Gentlemen, Edict 5.4 is at an impasse, if there are any Senatores who have yet to cast their vote, I invite you to do so now in favor of commissioning a fifth legio, lest the legislation fail for being tied in votes."

[/Bean\]

I'm afraid I have yet to here a plausible reason for deploying another legion, besides certain young men wanting to pursue paths of glory for their own ends.

[The Celtic Viking]

"Neither can I see a reason for emptying our coffers like that. We are not made of gold, and even with the added weight we got out of our newly conquered territories, we can't jolly well just throw it all away if we are to seriously compete with the deep coffers of Carthage. Even assuming that we had endless amounts of denarii, if we kept on raising a legion every time we got a new man eligible for leading one we would soon run out of spaces to place them, if we didn't run out of soldiers first! Some would have us arm women and children before they'd stop levying armies.

Me, I'm quite happy that it failed. Next time, at least try to justify it."

[navarro951]

Blasio stands...

"If the senate would quiet down. I would like to extend my congratulations to still Consul Cicero, and our new Consul Regvlvs. A fine man for the job indeed. My command of Legio IV will pass to you Consul Regvlvs. And if the senate, and yourself will allow it, I will take command of Legio I. It would do me a great honor to command my good friend Consul Asina's original command along with my son."

[SwissBarbar]

And I congratulate my cousin Qvintvs Aemilivs to be elected as the new Tribvnvs Plebis. Thank you, senatores, that you deem our family trustworthy.

[/Bean\]

I, too, extend my congratulations to all in new office. I expect fine things from each of you.

[mini]

Qvintvs Aemilivs rose to speak.

"Thank you Avlvs Aemilivs, Thank you my fellow senators. I shall not shame thy trust."

Content, he sat down again.

[The Celtic Viking]

"Thanks to you all, but does it not make more sense - since we only have one consular legion - to let the command of Legio I Apvlia go to Consul Manivs Clavdivs? He knows the soldiers himself as he has fought with them for a long time, and if he would challenge Cnaevs Cornelivs, I would certainly put my vote on him.

Do not mistake my words as distrust in the command of Cnaevs Cornelivs, but rather as a concern for how we would be treating Manivs Clavdivs. He has spent so much time as a second in command under me there, and to have someone else and take it over when I leave would be a direct insult to him, if he does indeed wish to command it now. Has he not earned his turn do that now, if it's what he wants?"

[/Bean\]

What command would you allow yourself then, Consul? Or would you keep from commanding a legion entirely for your term? I do not share your concern for the leadership of Cnaevs Cornelivs in Legio I Apulia. He has proved himself a capable commander in the past under Consul Dentatvs. I do not believe we should disown his ability when we have yet to experience it.

[mini]

Qvintvs Aemilivs rose quickly

"Conscript fathers, consul Pvblivs Atilivs, esteemed consular Caivs Avrelivs." Qvintvs Aemilivs opened his address to the senate.
He refolded his toga while gazing around the ancient Curia Hostilia. If he had had any doubt, he could be sure that his carreer was of to a good start now he got elected as Tribunus Plebis.

"Caivs Avrelivs, do not misinterpret consul Pvblivs Atilivs' words in a negative way. He did not intent to minimalise Cnaevs Cornelivs capabilities as a Legate or even general in any way." He shot a quick glance to Pvblivs Atilivs, sitting on the dais in his curule consul's chair to see if he had interpreted this in a right way.
"The only way we should interprete the consul's words, my fellow senators, is a matter of LAW. A matter of the MOS MAIORVM." he thundered now to the whole house.

"We pass here no judgement upon a man who has had no chance to prove his salt as a commander. That is not our style. I have every confidence in Cnaevs Cornelivs abilities." He acknowledged the latter with a nod.
"Yet I say again: THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE AT HAND. Then what is my point, conscript fathers?" He asked, gazing throughout the Curia Hostilia.

"The issue at hand, is the CONSULAR LEGIO I and who is to command it. The answer is simple Conscript Fathers. The answer is already given. The answer, my fellow senators, is in the name itself. CONSULAR Legio I. The Legion that belongs to the consul!. I bare no ill feelings to Cnaevs Cornelivs, nor do I doubt his abilities. But the consular legion belongs to the consul." and he pauzed.

"Durex lex, SED lex!" he finished, and sat down.

[SwissBarbar]

Avlvs rose

Of course the consular legion belongs to the consul, that's beyond question. Why do we even discuss it here? There are many young Legatii who like to prove their ability in commanding armies but have no experience. No one doubts Cnaevs Cornelivs.

[/Bean\]

I feel you are confused somewhat, young Qvintvs Aemilivs. For one, Cnaevs Blasio has proved his worth and battle competence in past commands serving under Consul Dentatvs, our once esteemed Dictator. He has had many chances to 'prove his salt', and has come out highly praised.

Also, we have one Consular Legion: the Legio IV Roma, of which Consul Regvlvs is now in command. The Legio I Apulia is not a Consular legion. Perhpas you were mistaken?

[mini]

Qvintvs Aemilivs pondered over that.

"It seems you are correct Caivs Aurelivs. Nevertheless, if our only consular legion is already under the command of one of the consuls, Manivs Clavdivs should by rights be able to choose what legion he wants to command in the field.
I also intend to use my trunicial powers to propose a new law to the people. That a consular legion should be created, of a normal legion size instead of a double-sized for being consular, and that this shall always fall under the command of the Consul of Finance. This will be the only legion allowed in our heartlands, to quell any rebellious Italian states.
This results in the fact that the consul of finance should by all times be in Rome, or in it's vicinity when marching with the legion. I shall soon consult a map to draw the lines in which this legion may operate.

This will also prevent future issues where a consul of the Legions will not be in control of the consular legion, which is currently defending our Roman heartland, while it could better be used where our enemies are the most numerous and the threat the biggest."

[/Bean\]

I fear this is just a repeat of the failed Edict concerning the creation of a fifth legion, which was voted against in this congressional session. If you wish to bring that edict up once more you will have to wait until the next congressional session and propose this again.

[mini]

"Dear Caivs Avrelivs. You over-simplify what I have in mind. But this is not the time. You will find I have a few new nifty laws in mind, which should be given consideration, but I do wish to present them to this house when I have fully worked them out! So I ask you to be patient"

[/Bean\]

It is a shame you did not bring these ideas to light during this last congressional session.There were many senators able to produce more edicts and CA's.

[mini]

"As a mere tribunus militum, I was not entitled to promulgate any laws Caivs Avrelivs."

[/Bean\]

Hence why such tribunes approach legates or higher ranking officials, and ask them to produce such edicts. Hence why there were plenty of legates that were able to use their edictorial powers.

[mini]

"I am my own man, Caivs Avrelivs, my dignitas would not allow others promulgating the laws that are the fruit of my intellect. "

[/Bean\]

It is not a question of intelect, Qvintvs Aemilivs. A tribune does not have the power to promote edicts; so it is the norm for them to approach those who can. I see it as a blond spot in your intelect that you do not see the wisdom in this. It has been practiced since the Curia was created.

[mini]

"If you inspect my words more closely, Caivs Avrelivs, you will notice that I do not say this is a question of intellect. This is a question of my dignitas not permitting me to let other men promulgate any laws that are the fruit of my intellect."

[The Celtic Viking]

Consul Pvblivs Atilivs stands up, raising his right hand and looking around the Curia.

"Qvintvs Aemilivs was quite right, Caivs Avrelivs, when he said I never intended to scoff at Cnaevs Cornelivs. Indeed, I specifically warned you not to interpret my words that way! As I thought I made clear last I spoke, I was only voicing my opinion that Consul Manivs Clavdivs is more than capable as well, and with the time has spent in Legio I behind me he deserves to take the command of it if he wish to do so.

So I summon you, Consul Manivs Clavdivs! Make your own statement and let us know what your decision on the matter is. My words lose their point if you don't want to lead Legio I, in which case I wouldn't deny Cnaevs Cornelivs his chance to command it."

[everyone]

Consul Manius Claudius returns to the Curia, appearing wearied.

"Ave all, I have received a message that my opinions are required here, and so I have arrived."

Manius Claudius Hurries to his Consul's seat, before proceeding,

"I would lead a legion if required to, and since the edict passed in the recent congressional session proposed by myself requires legio I to march on; I would request that I am given permission by the rest of the senate to lead the legion to accomplish the task; as I would not be as selfish as to request another fellow senator to risk his life to do something I had proposed and the rest of the senate had approved in favour of, though the senator may also agree on risking his life.

(OOC: though I had appeared online the past few hours, that was because I left my browser on while typing an essay :sweatdrop: )

[navarro951]

"Good Consul Pvblivs Regvlvs, and all senators, I simply asked as is the law to do so. No one here decides the command of legion simply by first raising their hand. I thank you for noting my skill in command, and I am aware of my sons service, so if it his command you will have, then very well. I would ask that, if I am to be away from military service for now, that I be allowed the Provincial Governing of Rhegion. I feel I had done my job as Consul up to par, and if I can finance and run a nation, then I would do fine to finance and govern a city."

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

The senator from Taras, licking the wounds of having his first Edict proposal defeated in honest debate, stands to address the senate. His clean, crisp toga sports a vivid blue hellenic design around the trim, clasped together with a brooch signifying his rank of Legatus.

"Noble sons of Roma, we are all descendants of great familial lines, each with great history and traditions. Our ancestors made the Res Publica what it is today and it falls upon us to defend it and everything it represents. It is in honor of those traditions that I wish to press the need for Dux Cnaeus Cornelius to remain a strong part of the affairs of the Res Publica. While I am satisfied that he has been removed from office, after serving so nobly, though perhaps for too long as Consul of the Legions, it would be a grievous error on our part to allow him to waste away as if he were a rotten vegetable cast upon the midden heap. His length and success of military service, as evidenced by his rank of Dux, in this Senator's mind makes him the only acceptable choice for command of the Legio I Apulia.

"I say "only" acceptable choice because the legios belong to the Res Publica and not their commanders or officers, no matter how long they served with that legio or no matter how much the men are endeared to him. While not belittling the accomplishments of Consul Manius Claudius, he is still only a Legatus and Cnaeus Cornelius is a Dux. And yet, while Manius Claudius is a Consul, he is the Consul of Finance - which, in this Senator's mind, since the edict to raise another legio was defeated, means that he should forego commanding a legio until such time as law dictates we raise another Consular Legio. Let the Consul of the Legions continue to command the Consular Legio IV Roma as has been our established practice, and allow Dux Cnaeus Cornelius Blasio assume command of the Legio I Apulia.

"But, fellow Senatores, if you insist upon ignoring Cnaeus Cornelius' rank for the familiarity that Manius Claudius has with the men of the First Legio, I implore you to allow the former Consul a governorship, that he may continue to aid the Res Publica for which he has fought his entire life. Again, I believe it would be a dishonor to military tradition and individual merit to deny Cnaeus Cornelius the command of the Legio I Apulia, but if it is so decided, then Rhegion, as he suggested, is a fine place for one of our greatest warriors to keep vigil over our newest enemies, the Carthaginians."

[The Celtic Viking]

"Cnaevs Cornelivs, I do recognize that you only asked, but that does not mean no one else can do the same. I was merely looking out for good Consul Manivs Clavdivs here, and it seems it was the right thing to do."

OOC: By the way, I think you meant Pvblivs Atilivs. ~;)

Pvblivs turns to Tiberivs Clavdivs.

"You are quite confused, I see. For one thing, Cnaevs Cornelivs served as the Consul of Finance, not Consul of Legions, and I am the current Consul of Finance. Manivs Clavdivs here is in his second, I believe, term as Consul of the Legions. If Manivs Clavdivs was to command Legio IV, this issue wouldn't be discussed since I would still be the commander of Legio I!

Be that as it may, men are usually more willing to fight and die for someone they know, love and respect, such as they do with Manivs Clavdivs, while Cnaevs Cornelivs, though the wound is healing, have a more scarred reputation amongst them since the days of dictatorship. I am certain he could mend it with time, but we need quick action: the Carthaginians won't wait for him to gain the trust and happiness of Legio I before attacking, nor will the Volcallra wait with defending themselves either! We need someone who can step in and right from the start command them without question or further complications.

This matter must be settled quickly, so I call for a vote now. If someone else wants to challenge for the command, speak up quickly."

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

"Publius Atilius, you are quite right that I have confused the posts to which these men have filled or are filling. I apologize that I mispspoke in my fatigue from late nights reviewing the laws proposed by Tribunus Pleibeus, Quintus Aemilius. Still, I maintain that, as is our tradition, you, as Consul of Finance assume command of the Consular Legio IV Roma and that Dux Cnaeus Cornelius Blasio still be appointed to command the Legio I Apulia. He has higher rank and military standing than Consul Manius Claudius.

"Our soldiers are volunteers and are professional to the core. Ideally, our men fight for the Res Publica, not individual glory or commanders. True, while they may not yet be 'warmed up' to Cnaeus Cornelius in the manner that they were to you, Publius Atilius, or even are to Manius Claudius, in the end, all ideals are cast aside and it is for their brother in arms to their left and to their right for whom they fight in order to simply stay alive when the time to spill blood arrives. When men are killing each other at close interval, who leads them is the furthest thing from their minds, I assure you. I am quite convinced that Cnaeus Cornelius will be able to muster their hearts as they march to the north west to confront the Carthaginians. Accomplishment and tradition must be recognized and honored. It is the way of our ancestors, it is the Roman way."

"As for the argumentum ad hominem against Cnaeus Cornelius, I believe that the 'wound' you speak of is felt only here in the Senate. Now that he has most graciously stepped down from the post in accordance with election results, I have no disagreement with the man. He is cleared of any wrongdoing in my mind, and I am sure that most citizens couldn't even name him as having been the Consul of Finance, let alone the soldiers he would command care that he held a position of governance longer than some of us would have liked."

[The Celtic Viking]

"Are you implying that I have not seen combat, or do you have another reason for trying to school me on how the mind work in such conditions? I know it all too well myself, and it isn't as simple as you would have us believe. Like it or not, who commands the army does matter a lot on whether a man will stay, fight and possibly die or run away. If they do not trust the commander, if they do not respect him, they will run, regardless if that's the "ideal case" or not. Fighting under a general they have come to love, trust and respect through acts of courage and valour, that gives the extra motivation to make that extra strike, even though your arm is bloody and exhausted, and your sword heavier than a great rock. Such is the reality of battle, and we should make our decisions based on what is, not what ought to be.

I have also no idea what you're talking about when you accuse me of an ad hominem. I have made no such argument, so please explain yourself."

[navarro951]

"Gentlemen gentlemen, good senators, I have already laid down my argument. I am fine with my son, our Consul Manivs Cicero, taking command of Legio I. While yes it is indeed true that loyalty is not what decides command, I feel it appropriate if those men are in the Consul's favor than it should remain that way. As I have said and requested, I look to govern the provinces of Roma for now if it can be arranged."

[navarro951]

A magistrate rises...

Due to his achievements in battle and accordance with our laws, Caivs Cotta is discharged of the rank of Dux, and promoted to the rank and office of Quaestor.

Also, the Edict 5.1 of our recent legislation is in effect. (OOC: it was never announced) He will now be Provincial Governor of Epidamnos and its surrounding province for a period of two years."

[Potocello]

"Ha, a rank and dictatorship he does not deserve!" shouted an anonymous senator from the Curia.

[desert]

Another anonymous senator, speaking into a voice scrambler while wearing a Guy Fawkes mask, reproached: "What's the point of whiny petulance now that the whole affair is over with? He won, the majority favored it, there's nothing you can do about it, so get over it already!"

Having completed his expostulation, the senator sat down in slow motion whilst reciting the creed:
"Anonymous is legion. Anonymous does not forgive. Anonymous does not forget. Expect us."

[everyone]

Consul Manius Claudius enters the Curia and takes his seat, moments after a few anonymous senators spoke, he stood up.

"Before I start, I would like to congratulate Quaestor Caius Aurelius on his recent promotion and victories over the Epirotes.

As you may have known from my report this season, one of our agents, Spurius P(somethingwhichIforgot) has made a survey of the lands around Epirote-controlled Ambrakia and Pella, and reports that those regions have no standing military force left; because of Quaestor Caius Aurelius's victories.

Furthermore, the garrison of Ambracia has been severely depleted, and if we strike now, the region would definitely be taken and the Kingdom of Epirus would be severely crippled; for without Epirus, their kings would have no claim to their throne and their presence nearly removed from Greece.

Threfore I suggest that Legio II be allowed to be sent down to take the city of Ambracia and the region of Epirus; though there may be no recent edict instructing that course of action and that if Quaestor Caius Aurelius's actions are perfectly legal; I still seek the support of the Senators so that we may agree that the security of our republic from the destruction of our enemies, is of much greater importance than our individual grudges, selfish ambitions and jealousy.

The Kingdom of Epirus may be weakened now, but they still have a chance to stand up and continue fighting us in Illyria, but with the conquest of Epirus, we would be able to secure the regions of Illyria and make them safer from the risk of another attack by Epirus."

He glances through the Curia silently after completing his speech.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

"First we give Caius Aurelius a title and a governorship of a province, now there are whisperings of transferring the Legio II Latium over to become his own personal army, and even unbelievably further, now we wish to have the governor lead an assault into yet another province whilst abandoning the post he was just awarded! What is this madness? Is he Heracles himself reborn? Has Achilles returned from Hades and become an unvanquishable heroe anew?! This is insane!

"If Caius Aurelius is to be a governor, then let him govern. He should sit and rot in Epidamnos as far as I am concerned; let him govern the goats, and the hill people, and the wild asses since he has been deemed so worthy. It would be grossly tactically imprudent of us to transfer an entire legio of the Res Publica over to his personal whim and fancy. As a governor, by law, he is permitted to command one, so let us raise a new one, augmented with local men who know the territory and who are willing to fight against the Epirote Greeks. We are fighting a war on two fronts now. To reduce our available numbers would be criminal activity. Let Legatus Caius Aemilius Mamercus command the Legio II Latium to face Pyhrrus. I am sure that the reinforcements from Italia and the Legio III Campania to assist would be even more than enough to break their backs once and for all."

Tiberius swallows a mouthful of water and continues his speech, pacing the floor

"And why should the Legio III Campania be sent back to Italia to fight rebels? Is that not what we have decided was the role of the Consular Legio IV Roma while Dux Cnaeus Cornelius was in command? Is that task to be abandoned? What sort of precedent is that to be setting, that we have no focus or ability or desire to complete what we start? If we continue in this manner then our enemies from within and without will see that we are weak and fractured. The Res Publica will become the lauging stock of the civilized peoples of the earth! Do we really want for the days when Gauls pillaged Roma at will? Senatores, let us get our affairs in order.

"I summarize thusly:"


The Epirote threat must be met - I suggest by the Legio II Latium led by Legatus Caius Aemilius Mamercus, augmented by the Legio III Campania until a proper provincial legio can be recruited.

The rebellions in Italia must be violently suppressed - and the men for the job are the Consular Legio IV Roma, who can also act as a deterrent or intercept force against Carthaginians should they invade the penninsula through the south

The main Carthaginian threat in Vocralla should be met by the Legio I Apulia as we already voted on in the Senate.

[The Celtic Viking]

"I agree with Tiberivs Clavdivs: Legio III is not needed in Italia. I and the Consular Legion will be strong enough to deal with those rebels, even though Legio IV is practically just a big rabble of levies as is.

Caivs Avrelivs should remain in charge of Legio II until a provincial legion has been spawned from him, so that he can fulfil his duty as a provincial governor there and protect Epidamnos. The logical choice for taking Ambrakia - if it is to be taken at all - would thus be Legio III.

However, there has not been an edict for it, so neither I nor Manivs Clavdivs, nor anyone else here, is obliged to support any such action. Of course, since it was Manivs Clavdivs who proposed it I'm sure he would offer you his help, but I'm not completely sure I would."

[/Bean\]

Balbatus rises.

Where, may I ask, exactly is the Legio I Apulia? Should they not be protecting our allies in Massilia? And yet they do not seem to be anywhere near?

[The Celtic Viking]

"It still stands in Segestica. It has all been a mess: no reinforcements have been able to come there, so if Manivs Clavdivs had left earlier, he would've either had to leave without full strength, or left Segestica not only undefended against attacks, but ready to revolt. I believe that's the cause for his delay."

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

"Consul Atilius Regulus, thank you for your clear-sightedness into the matter of Legio II Apulia. I am, however, confused as to exactly what you meant by what you said about Consul Manius Claudius?"

[The Celtic Viking]

"What, exactly, is it that confuses you? It was, as far as I know, Manivs Clavdivs who first proposed that we should take Ambrakia."

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

"I was unsure of to whom you were speaking when you said that 'Manius Claudius might offer you his help'. I understand what you meant now."

[everyone]

Manius Claudius rises after a while. He appears to be preparing to leave.
"Since Legio II has recently been running low on supplies; I think it should currently return to Illyria to resupply itself before the men start deserting.
However I still stand with the proposal that we should strike Ambrakia, and quick. It is not a matter of personal glory, but a matter on destroying our enemies. If possible, and if Dux Servius Sempronius is willing, Legio III should immediately move and take Ambrakia; for the reasons I mentioned earlier.
And about Legio I, it is because of reinforcements being delayed which is why I have been unable to move the legion until this season. However I shall be heading for Massilia with the men who are to join the army very soon."

[SwissBarbar]

Lvcvllvs spoke:

As far as I know, the Legio II already is on friendly territory, friend Manius Claudius.

[everyone]

good

(OOC: probably the shortest IC post ever)

[mini]

Senator Qvintvs Aemilivs walked from his modest house near the palatine towards the Forum. Though early in the morning it was, the great city of Rome was already buzzing with activity.
As shopkeepers used the nights to get their goods delivered, stocks were updated and shops prepared to receive customers in the early morning.

The Forum Romanum itself however, contained as yet not many forum frequenters. Most people would be presenting themselves to whomever they were client to, so they could either follow him as he went about his public bussiness or being dismissed for today.
A man always had some or more clients in his wake, to show his importance to the world.

Yet not so for Qvintvs Aemilivs. His recent adoption by Caivs Avrelivs had certainly rocketed his career, though from any form of clientele could be no question for a member of the Aemilian gens.
His own clientele was small but forming.

He only had come in from Illyria the evening before, on leave for 2 days to visit the wedding from his younger brother.

Of course he would be taking the advantage of being Rome to finally use his term of Tribvnvs Plebis. He would have to make himself known to the plebs, so they would remember him with the next election for office further down the line of his career.

To this extend he was up early, walking to a small shop near the Forum. There housed the Scribe's House of Marcus Scribianus, one of Rome's better scribe's houses. No better place than to get ones notes enscrolled.

Though the arena for the tribune of the plebs was the Comitia, where The People traditionally had their voice and no patrician was allowed to speak, he thought it best to first announce his laws to the Senate. Although he did not need their consent to push laws though the Comitia, he thought it best to atleast notify his peers.

By the time he arrived on the forum, he could already see men entering the Curia Hostilia. Few were talking on the steps, not in a hurry to enter. Qvintvs Aemilivs strolled up, answering greetings left and right, ensuring enquiring senators that the front in Illyria was stable, yet never halting. Qvintvs Aemilivs was a reserved man, not anti-social yet not an outgoing man.

He took a seat on the Tribvnvs Plebis' bench down in front of the floor, as magistrates in office always were seated in the front, patiently awaiting the start of the Senate session, arms folded across his toga.

It wasn't before long that the senate got underway with it's daily bussiness, Qvintvs Aemilivs listening interessed yet only speaking when spoken to on the matter on the Illyrian front.
"Dear princeps senatus, both consuls and fellow conscript fathers. Since my arrival yesterday, I have not done anything else but answer questions about the front. Though it my pleasure to answer these questions, I see that sometimes the information discussed in this venerable house is more often than not, based on secondhand information.
Therefore I'd like to announce that I will present a law to the people, which will oblige any general to frequently update the current status and position of their legions, possibly with a report on any intelligence they may have concerning the lands nearby. Should we concentrate this information in one place, the senate could deal more accurately on emergancy situations in a swifter way."

He gazed around, seeing many faces approvingly discussing with their neighbours this propisition for a War Intelligence of some sort. Yet a few faces were also not looking so happy.

"Now I do have the floor, I also wish to announce I have a few other laws I would like to present to the People. First of all, I would like to talk about the name of our laws. In the time of our ancestors, laws were given the name of the men who made them, therefore showing to the world their attribution to the Roman world, and their dedication to it.
I believe this to be a part of the Mos Maiorum, and would like to see this implemented again.

Third of all, fellow senators, we have to do something about our policy concerning our armies.
Right now, we have capable men serving in the field, doing their terms as instructed by the Senate and People. Yet what do we do when they change offices? Or when other people take their place? One legion is not the other. Resentment and strife can come of this when some senator of the future thinks his honour is being slighted because his Legion is being disadvantaged compared to the others.
Therefore it is my opinion to regulate the compositions of a legion, creating a solid framing yet leaving options to adjust the composition to area and need.
Also these regulations will eventually ease the drain on our Treasury, as we will be able to estimate the costs for a new legion better, along with the upkeep the current legions will generate.

As to this last regulation, I have ensured a great number of scrolls with every details concerning this Lex Aemilia Reformata Legiona Minius, so that most senators will have a copy. Please do not hesitate to share your copy with our numerous backbenchers. I think these reforms are for the better, and I hope these will be implemented as such.

He gestured his three slaves to start passing out the scrolls from their buckets in which he had picked them up this morning.

As my free time on the Illyrian front is short, I have not yet had the time to complete severaf drafts of laws to come, but you may rest assured these will be presented to the house in their due time."

He took his seat again, while his slaves handed out scrolls. Though he knew some furor would come of this, he had not relented to propose these laws he saw as necessary

Lex Aemilia Intelligentia Bella Minius
Creating of a form of War Intelligence, easily to be checked by all senators.

(OOC:Seperate thread/sticky to be created where all commanders should update their legions whereabouts+composition every ingame year by preference, 2 years maxium. This can be done with 1 screenshot of the legion with picture-in-picture of the unit bar. The amount of land shown on the surroundings may be determined by the general. Please do include atleast a few inch of screen :p)

Lex Aemilia Lexnomen Minius
(OOC: as my examples: Lex + Gens name + somethign that resembles latin containing the point of the law. Ending with your forum name latinized :p PS: not sure if it is Lex Amilia or Lex Aemiliae. Must consult my sources.

Lex Aemilia Reformata Legiona Minius
Legion composition

1 Leves or Accensi
1 Rorarii
1 Hastati
1 principes
1 triari
In addition, to be raised from Local allies based on area of operation for the legion:
1 skirmisher type
2 units of allied infantry (OOC: different pair of Samnite, Lucanian, Bruttium, Ligurian or Gallic infantry or just any local stuff if the real distant cities)
1 unit of pedites extraordinarii
1 unit of classical hoplites
1 unit local cavalry

The amount of Tribunes has no restrictions.

The Consular Legion exists of the same, but adding 1 local cavalry, 1 hastati ,1principes ,1 triarii and 2 local melee infantry units.

Should the Treasury be unable of sustaining the same amount of current legions in its new form, current legions will be merged and adapted, until we have (re-)created all legions to this guidelines, to an amount as bearable to the Treasury.

Furthermore, the use of allied cohorts results in only the General being able to command the roman part. Should the legion split for a small amount of time (cleaning up rebels) the second in command will only be able to command allied troops.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Tiberius Claudius Marcellus perked up when he saw who was on the floor, ending the conversation he was having with several other senatores while the Tribunus Pleibius had been speaking. He thought it mildly amusing that the newly elected senator did not know the proper rules and traditions of the legislative body, let alone the standing laws of the Res Publica which he was either casting aside or shamefully ignorant. Tiberius looked over the scroll handed to him and briefly conversed with the men around him, each pointing out something of interest or chuckling at one passage or another. After getting the general consensus of the men, he stood up and spoke,

"Tribunus Quintus Aemilius, your ideas are noble and refreshing, though perhaps somewhat naieve in certain areas. It is good to have senators who are interested in the law and the betterment of the Res Publica and her beuracracy. However, the proper time to propose these laws of yours is, in fact past. According to the standing laws of the Res Publica, a law maker may only propose laws to be voted on during the Congressional Session. While it is excellent for you to be prepared and to introduce your ideas to your peers that they may have time to look them over. It will be a very long time before the men of the Curia sit again, together, to debate the future of our glorious people. I pray you have not performed a disservice to your own proposals by coming forth too strongly and too far in advance.

"Additionally, your sweeping reforms, I believe, lie beyond the scope of a man in your station. You, as Tribunus Pleibeus are entitled to propose one single Charter Amendment per congressional session, that is to say permanent, long lasting laws which fundamentally change the way our Res Publica functions. Yet you have proposed what appears to be three. You will require the support of several individuals of the rank Dux or higher to pass these all in one session. The benefit of your junior station is that you may propose many short-lasting edicts, that is to say laws which are in effect only until the next congressional session. If you can obtain the necessary backing to have others propose your laws for you, then so be it - we shall vote on their merit when that time arrives. I, however, suggest that you start getting your feet wet by utilizing your true power: Edicts, rather than trying to drink up the whole sea yourself."

Quiet laughter broke out amongst the seasoned legislators at the closing comment. Everyone began to speak amongst themselves, discussing the various merits of the proposed laws and what needed to be changed or ommited. Tiberius Claudius Marcellus and about twenty five other men rose from their seats and filed out the exit, merrily figuring out what they would all eat for the midday meal. As they walked past Quintus Aemilius, each man dropped his copy of the scroll into the buckets held by the slaves; each one landing heavily, sending an empty, hollow sound throughout the cavernous hall.

[mini]

Qvintvs Aemilvs walked casually past Tiberivs Claudivs Marcellvs.

"I'm a tribune of the plebs, my good friend. It might be true I am too junior in the senate. But the People in their Comitia are not your domain but mine, and as such I can promulgate any law I wish to push through the People. Such is my right as Tribune of the plebs. I need no permission from the senate. I am inviolate, and if you obstruct me in my duty, I will have you thrown off the Tarpeian Rock" he said casually, giving Tiberivs Claudivs Marcellvs a feral grin.

"Vale"

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Sextus stands
Perhaps threatening everyone who opposes you is not the best way to discuss this Qvintvs, I think I speak for everyone when I say that if you try to muscle your way into whatever you want. you, well, may find yourself muscled into a dark alley with some unsavory characters. And by that I mean simply you are not a tyrant, you do not decide the rules that Res Publica by just stating it, the senate decides, we ALL decide. Do not make this into a unpleasent, and violent discussion Sextvs smiles dryly

[mini]

Quintus Aemilius arched an eyebrow questioningly.

"Are you threatening a Tribune of the Plebs, Sextus? You do realize that I am inviolate and sacrosant? Be about your bussiness before I have the People throw YOU of the Tarpeian Rock."

Qvintvs Aemilivs went home, muttering about arrogant incompetants, more worried with their own prerogatives then the good of the Republic. They would keep, all of them, in due time they would.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Sextus rolled his eyes at Quintus muttering and looked at the other senators
would-be tyrrants do not deserve to talk about what is for the good of the republic.

[/Bean\]

Blabatus sighed loudly and rudely, and turned to a fellow senator, whispering loudly, meaning everyone to hear.

There goes another one. Honestly, its like they have nothing better to do than search for people to call would-be tyrants. Do we employ these people? Is it a profession?

[SwissBarbar]

If yes it must be a well paid profession. laughs

[/Bean\]

Perhaps we should seek out said teachers. I'm always on the lookout for a bit of extra cash.

[The Celtic Viking]

"Caivs Avrelivs, are you really that big a fool? Qvintvs Aemilivs here thinks he's above the law and the letter, and you don't see anything wrong in that? Avlvs Aemilivs, are you so unquestioningly blind in your loyalty to Caivs Avrelivs that you follow anything he says, no matter how intelligence-bereft it is?

If it were for people like you, we'd still have our kings of old. Sextvs Cornelivs is quite right in this matter."

[/Bean\]

Balbatus looks around, then realises he is being addressed.

I think, Consul, you are having bad dreams. Caivs Avrelivs is in Illyria Hellenike if I am not mistaken, as is Avlvs Aemilivs. You do think that my bushy beard covers the face of the Quaestor do you? And I feel you have had too many sleepless nights, for it must be hard for you to hear the blatent sarcasm in my voice.

(OOC: This is Balbatus talking, not Cotta. And I know its very hard to decifer sarcasm on forums, so please excuse that. Anyways i'm late, gotta dash)

[The Celtic Viking]

"Right, I apologize for my mistake, but then you can just change those names in my speech and you still have the truth of it. May I enquire the name of he who spoke in agreement with you? He spoke quickly and I did not see him, but he sounded just like Avlvs Aemilivs, and thinking you were Caivs Avrelivs gave me the knee-jerk assumption when he agreed with you like that."

[Mooks]

Quintus Aemilius, I for one appreciate your forthcomingness (Is that a word?) about new laws. If you think you can change something and make it for the better, then keep on proposing. And dont heed whoever says your too lowly of a station, you are a tribune of the plebs after all.

I need some clarification, as it is early in the morning and im still a bit asleep. Are you proposing to change the laws to latin names and then make a formal legion composition? I thought we had a adequate system of law naming, and already a legion composition!

If you do however change the legion composition, I say we call it the "Aemilius reforms" :2thumbsup:

[mini]

"My thanks, Decimvs Cornelivs. It is true I am a Tribvnvs plebis, but that doesn't count to these august senators. They see the People as a threat to their prerogatives, so they try to block me anyway they can.

As for a clarification, laws should bear the names of the ones whom conceived them, so their name lives on in history.
As for the legion composition, we have now no clear and solid composition, which leads to the current situation that every legion is as different from the other as day and night. This should end."

[Mooks]

"My thanks, Decimvs Cornelivs. It is true I am a Tribvnvs plebis, but that doesn't count to these august senators. They see the People as a threat to their prerogatives, so they try to block me anyway they can.

As for a clarification, laws should bear the names of the ones whom conceived them, so their name lives on in history.
As for the legion composition, we have now no clear and solid composition, which leads to the current situation that every legion is as different from the other as day and night. This should end."

Mmm, names on laws? Thats a tricky one, no other precedent has been set beyond legion reforms. Ill have to withhold judgement on that.

With the legion composition, I can see your view on it and appreciate it. Although I can see how attaching legions at the front with more auxiliaries then legions at home is practical.

[mini]

"I do not say that legions should not contain any auxiliaries. Yet a Roman Legion is to be composed out of a standard amount of each unit. This will result in one legion having 2 halves:
one half with pure roman units, and always the same composition
one half with allied units, which composition may very along certain lines depending on where the legion is operating.

On the laws receiving names: currently we have our laws numbered: edict 5.5;3.1 etcetera.
I would like to see the brilliant minds who conceived these laws, being rewarded for their efforts by naming those laws to them. That way, senators of the future will remember his name with respect.

For example Decimvs Cornelivs, if you would propose a law declaring that sessions in the senate should be held naked, the name of your law would be something like Lex Corneliae Nudus Senatus Mux"


(OOC: Mooks in Latin being Mux, I think it looks nice and latin :D)

[SwissBarbar]

"Caivs Avrelivs, are you really that big a fool? Qvintvs Aemilivs here thinks he's above the law and the letter, and you don't see anything wrong in that? Avlvs Aemilivs, are you so unquestioningly blind in your loyalty to Caivs Avrelivs that you follow anything he says, no matter how intelligence-bereft it is?

If it were for people like you, we'd still have our kings of old. Sextvs Cornelivs is quite right in this matter."

1. Avlvs is in Epeiros, I'm Lvcvllvs as you could read before.
2. No, I just found his comment funny and laughed to bring a better mood into the curia. Now don't try to accusing me not to take the curia for serious. I do.

If you want a statement from me, as I said before: I think we should not be too bureaucratic, but in the end the rules have to be followed at any cost! If we urgently have to vote upon these new laws, then we should make an emergency session.

Though he's a cousin of my master I don't endorse Qvintvs threat to throw several Members of the Curia from whatever rock. But the "tyrant"-matter of some of you just is - as it always was - ridiculous and stupid.

Concerning the laws themselves: if the laws finally would be put to a vote, I would vote yes.

Have you further questions, my intelligence-bereft friend?

[mini]

(OOC: the tarpeian rock was a cliff of whic roman citizens were thrown off as a death sentence on various occasions. Most notably, when obstructing a Tribune of the Plebs in his bussiness, he could orders the Plebs to throw you off there. Also when you used violance on a tribune of the plebs, you could count on being thrown off this cliff. I just wanted to add some historical flavour by using references to this fact.
Wiki for the ignorant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarpeian_rock . Not entirely complete info, but gives you an idea ;-) )

[SwissBarbar]

(OOC: Thanks, I know the tarpeian rock very well :yes: when I said "whatever rock" i meant, that you can't throw them from any rock at all, be it this certain one or another rock or cliff of your choice :beam: )

[The Celtic Viking]

"Lvcvllvs, I have already apologized for my mistake, and explained it: whenever I hear a mindless fool talk, I automatically think Avlvs Aemilivs, but from now on I shall not be so hasty: it could be you too. I find it interesting how the one clown works for the other."

[SwissBarbar]

I trust you to recognise every mindless fool from the first minute, since you're one yourself. At least one improvement. Now there's a new title called "clown" besides the "king", "usurper", "tyrant". Let's see if we can teach you one more word until next week.

Very characteristic, that you again did only respond to the part you could say something stupid, and not to the rest I had to say about laws, throwing people from rocks and stuff

[The Celtic Viking]

"I forget why I even bother talking to you; it's like fighting over a desert: you can do it, but it's just not worth the effort. I leave you to your tomfoolery."