Neverwinter Nights 2/Mask of the Betrayer/Storm of Zephir [Archive]

frogbeastegg

12-26-2008, 18:57

There's no current thread, and given the large number of RPG fans here we should have one, surely? Considering the release of the new expansion.

It appears the ugly duckling has turned into one of those white birds only the Queen is allowed to eat.

Over the last few months I've been experiencing some nostalgia for the old Infinity Engine RPGs. Rather than reinstalling Baldur's Gate 2 and trying to get it to work acceptably on my modern PC I have decided to give NWN2 another go. I place the blame Kek's - and others' - insistence it's not terrible any more. Well, that and my remembering that I never managed to get BG2 working last time I tried.

I've got both expansion packs, and I intend to start with the original campaign. AD&D character creation being a blind spot of mine (dyslexic + numbers, stats and formulae = disaster), my character is going to use the beginner's cleric (http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Beginner%27s_Cleric_-_Ro(2),F(2),Clr(16),SL(10)) template I found on the NWN2 wiki. It's the closest I could find to the type of character I'd like to play.

Hehe, shouldn't be hard for the game to gain a better verdict from me than the first time I played it. All it needs to do is run at more than 2FPS, enable me to use settings above the very lowest on the PC I nicknamed "froggy's beast", not crash constantly, and not fall prey to scripting errors which prevent me getting past the ultra-twee village fair tutorial thingy.

Kekvit Irae

12-27-2008, 01:17

Storm of Zephir

Zephir? Never heard of it. :tongueg:
Zehir is the new god of Yuan-ti. The SoZ expansion basically paves the way for 4th edition, as Zehir is the CE god in the Player's Handbook.

If you want to start a newbie character to play around with without having to muck around with skills and such, said above template is definitely NOT suggested. Pretty much anything that multiclasses and has levels in Rogue are going to give you a dyslexic nightmare.

My suggestion is play a straight Favored Soul. They are like Clerics who receive and cast spells just like a Sorcerer (and uses Charisma for bonus spells and max spell level, AND Wisdom for save DC), they receive Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (something normally reserved for Fighters only) for free, and they get resistance to chosen elemental types. Favored Souls are the only class where picking your deity is a tactical choice, rather than just fluff like Clerics. You only get the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in your god's favored weapon. I personally prefer any god that has Longsword or Greatsword.
The only downside is that they are NOT Clerics or Fighters. They don't get Turn Undead, domains, heavy armor, or high base attack bonus. But if you grab yourself a mithral full plate, you won't need heavy armor, and the massive amount of healing spells you'll be casting more than makes up for the lack of domains and Turn Undead. If you really, REALLY want those domains, grab a single level of Cleric and continue on with Favored Soul (make sure you're a Human, Half-Elf, or Grey Orc since they have the required favored classes).

Oh, and the Yuan-ti Pureblood race is very, VERY delicious! Same ECL as the Drow, but no negatives to stats or any other disadvantages.

frogbeastegg

12-27-2008, 12:59

I blame the fancy writing on the box.

I find that build attractive because it tells me what point to put where, at which levels to multiclass, and so on. It's the forest of numbers effect which causes AD&D to act like a spell of frog confusion + 3. Character stats, derived skills, the other skills, bonuses, saving and attacking throws ... Add in descriptions like "does 6D4 for 5 rounds", and the need to work out the optimal points to shift from one class to another and/or invest in feats and/or boost other skills and my poor little eyes are spinning like a pinwheel.

The creation of a four person party for storm of that dude (:tongueg:) is proving near impossible for me. I know I need a mage/thief/tank/healer combo. There are way too many possibilities to choose from! I have no particular plans for my Storm party, other than my usual guidelines. They would be:

Preferably human characters, or very close to human ones. Playing as orcs, halflings and the like make me feel like a reject from lord of the rings. Strictly no elves because I loathe the pretentious treehuggers. I'm open to playing as tieflings, half angels, half demons and such. Gnomes belong on a garden lawn.

Powerful builds so I don't die every 10 seconds. I have to use many skills to figure out what they do. School of hard knocks, most literally. "1d5 + 1 per 3rd level means ....? :casts, watches it barely dent an orc, which then heads over and thumps the mage in the head with a giant club:"

Good aligned, so no blackguards etc.

I like to have at least one guy in shiny plate armour with a sword and shield. Think knight. Not a paladin because they always turn out feeble for reasons which may or may not be related to my hopelessness. It's a class I have used repeatedly since BG1, and never been impressed with. They also tend to be smug self-righteous annoyances.

If I have to play a mage then I want to blast things into itty-bitty pieces with my awesome power, not wave my hands about and create a shadow of myself so I get hit in the head half as often. My mage needs a good degree of combat survivability because he's going to spend half the game being thumped in the head due to my inability to work out which spell will blast things into itty-bitty pieces. Mage in armour with a sword is a particular style I would like. Fireball, fireball, slice head, win. Perfect.

Thieves. I recognise the necessity of spotting traps, picking locks, etc, but it's a class I have never got on with. They die all the time. Sneak attacking and such is fine in theory. In (Infinity Engine) practise the rest of my party usually charges in and ruins it, or the thief ends up isolated and slaughtered after the attack completes. AFAIK there are some combat rogue types, so maybe one of those would be suitable?

The favoured soul outline above sounds reasonable for the healer/secondary tank. Um, if I knew how to build it :embarassed:

It would be nice to have a red dragon disciple there. I have good memories of using one in hordes of underdark. Mmmm, he and Deekin slaughtered everything in sight.

When it comes to weapons for anyone I have a definite bias towards swords. Doesn't matter what sort. Hitting people with varying types of stick lacks that certain something.

Kekvit Irae

12-27-2008, 15:41

A Favored Soul build is easy.

Race: My personal favorite is always the Human. Extra feat at first level and extra skill points are always delicious. Strongheart Halflings get the extra feat, but they are small and will not be able to wield large weapons, and use medium weapons in two hands.

Stats: 14 str, 12-14 dex, 10-12 con, 14-16 int (if you want more skill points), 8 wis (because you are not an offensive caster, you don't need high DCs), and 16 cha.

Skills: Max out Diplomacy, Lore, Concentration, and Spellcraft. Any skill points left over should go into whatever you feel like taking. Craft: Armor is good, since you'll need a Mithral Fullplate to gain full advantage of the Medium Armor of the FS. When leveling up, don't pick anything else but your maxed skills unless you have the skill points to burn (or you have Able Learner feat).

God: Your choice. Either take one with longsword (so you can use a shield for higher AC) or one with greatsword (for higher damage output).

Feats: If you picked human, Luck of Heroes (saves are nothing to a FS; you need the AC more) and one of your choice. I'd go with either Toughness for more hitpoints, Augment Healing for better healing spells, or Able Learner if you want to put ranks into cross-class skills without paying the extra cost.

Leveling up:
3 - You get your Weapon Focus for free.
3 - Grab either Extend Spell (for your buffs), Dodge, or Power Attack.
4 - +1cha
5 - You get your energy resistance 10 in your choice of elements. I'd pick either Cold or Fire, as they are more common.
6 - Cleave (if Power Attack was taken), or any other of your choice.
8 - +1cha

From that point onward, you should have a feel for your character.

If you want to make a Favored Soul/Stormlord build, same as above except with a few modifications:

The first two stat points you get at 4th and 8th level should go into strength, and then the rest into charisma.

Your deity HAS to be one of the following: Hoar, Lurue, Talos, Gruumsh (Grey Orcs, Half Orcs), Sseth (Yuan-ti Purebloods), Baervan Wildwanderer (Gnomes), or Angarradh (Elves).

If playing a Human, Luck of Heroes and Toughness. If not, take Toughness. You will need to get Great Fortitude when you level up to 3rd level, and your Weapon Focus (Spear) will come naturally to a Favored Soul.

DO NOT TAKE ELECTRICAL RESISTANCE AS YOUR FAVORED SOUL'S CHOICE. You will get this as a Stormlord, as well as immunity later on.

Once you get to the point where you can cast 3rd level divine spells, switch over to Stormlord. Now enjoy the benefits of having an At Will +1d6 electrical damage to all your spear attacks (increases as you level up in Stormlord), and all your spears count as a +1 weapon (again, increases as you level up) which stacks with your weapon's magical enhancement bonus.

TevashSzat

12-27-2008, 19:31

frogbeastegg

12-27-2008, 20:39

I started a game with the build I linked to, more to get a feel for the game than anything else. I've played far enough to reach the first fort. Much better than the first time I played it! The game feels like a worthy entry into the Bioware AD&D 'series' now, and so far it's more absorbing than the original NWN.

Thanks for the build suggestions. I'm level 4 with that cleric template and I'm not quite liking it. It's partly due to the spear; it's slow, rubbish, and I spend most of my time missing. I'm not sure any form of cleric is for me. They are a bit too ... not enough swords and fireballs of deadly death :yes: The two most enjoyable AD&D characters I have played were my kensai/mage from BG2 and my fighter/sorceror/red dragon disciple from HoU. Both characters were hard to hit, ploughed through mobs with fancy swordwork, then blasted tough guys with fireballs.

I'm looking at the eldritch knight and thinking that might be better. Can anyone recommend a strong build with that? I have seen several online and none appeal to me, since they rely on dual wielding scythes and other craziness.

I have Tony K's AI hack. Which settings are people using for close combat fighters? I've played with all the obvious ones and nothing stops the dwarf from sprinting ahead into a mob. Sometimes my other two characters get there in time to save him, others not. He just got my entire party wiped out by singlehandedly charging a massive bandit camp. :wall:

Kekvit Irae

12-28-2008, 00:41

Thanks for the build suggestions. I'm level 4 with that cleric template and I'm not quite liking it. It's partly due to the spear; it's slow, rubbish, and I spend most of my time missing. I'm not sure any form of cleric is for me. They are a bit too ... not enough swords and fireballs of deadly death :yes: The two most enjoyable AD&D characters I have played were my kensai/mage from BG2 and my fighter/sorceror/red dragon disciple from HoU. Both characters were hard to hit, ploughed through mobs with fancy swordwork, then blasted tough guys with fireballs.

If you're looking into a "waggle your finger and they die" type of character, look no further than the Warlock. Their damage output sucks- same progression as a Rogue's sneak attack, +1d6 every two levels, as opposed to a fireball which is 1d6 every level- but their main advantage is they have UNLIMITED spells. Seriously, you will NEVER run out. The d6 hit points and ability to wear up to Medium Armor (with the right feats) without arcane failure makes them a very good choice for survivability. Once you hit 10th level or so, you'll be outdamaging any wizard or sorcerer for the sheer fact that you never need to rest once (except for regaining lost hit points).
You can also modify your Elderitch Blast with both a Blast Shape and Blast Type, which means your lousy 1d6/2lvls can possibly turn into a 1d6/2lvls +2d6 fire damage for several rounds vs every enemy within 10 feet. Ouch. My personal favorite is Noxious Blast, which is undoubtably the most broken spell in the game in terms of balance issues. Any enemy hit by your blast must make a Fort save or be dazed for 10 rounds. TEN ROUNDS. Combine that with Elderitch Chain (modifies your blast to be like Chain Lightning) and Weapon Focus: Ranged Touch Attack (RTA's ALWAYS critical on a 20, no need to roll to confirm it) and Improved Critical: Ranged Touch Attack (ALWAYS crit on a 19-20), and you have a recipe for pain.

I have Tony K's AI hack. Which settings are people using for close combat fighters? I've played with all the obvious ones and nothing stops the dwarf from sprinting ahead into a mob. Sometimes my other two characters get there in time to save him, others not. He just got my entire party wiped out by singlehandedly charging a massive bandit camp. :wall:

Use the voice commands. V-E-E sets your party into Follow mode. They won't attack unless you command them otherwise, for when you're near a hallway of traps and don't want Khelgar doing something stupid like charging in and setting every trap off. V-W-E sets Attack mode.
Muck around with the behavior settings until you find the right combination. Most notably, Switch To Melee Range and Use Melee Attacks (I turn them off for people like Qara when I would rather have them cast spells than attack).

Crandaeolon

12-28-2008, 18:05

frogbeastegg

12-28-2008, 20:54

I'm wondering about a swashbuckler/wizard/eldritch knight. Uh oh. Brace yourself for a froggy effort at character design.

Wizards need high int. High dex will keep me alive. Swashbuckers can add int to their attack rolls, converting it into a stat which powers both physical and magical killing. High dex benefits them too, and they are aimed at being hard to hit and have skills to support this. Swashbuckler has a higher HP base too, so a few levels in that will enable me to take more than one hit. Taking these two classes together will allow me to naturally fill the requirements for eldritch knight, a prestige class which will turn me into a sword-waving fireball-blasting dealer of death.

Because the classes focus on the same stats I will be able to pump int and dex sky high. Um, other than that I'm not sure what else to spend points on. Constitution and a bit of strength?

Skills wise, most of the ones I want appear to be covered naturally by these classes: diplomacy, tumble, concentration, spellcraft. I hear use magical device is one no one should be without; neither class has that one so I'd have to sink points into it or pick up that feat which allows all skills to be treated as class skills. Is UMD worth that? It would have to be pretty good to justify the wastage involved in either method of pumping it. There are so many skills it's hard to tell what I actually need. High int should give me a good amount of points to play with.

As far as the level split goes, it looks like it is the full 10 with eldritch knight or you lose the better benefits. I've seen it said again and again that in such a scenario wizard needs to reach 8 to give me a total caster level of 18 to open up the highest level spells. That means 2 levels left over for swashbuckler, or 12 if I take the character across into Mask. Level 3 is where the swashbuckler gets the feat which adds int onto attack calculations, so I definitely need level 3 ASAP or there's no point in taking the class. If I'm missing a single wizard level at the end of the original campaign it's not the end of the world, is it?

Feats are harder. Martial weapons is a must for eldritch knight, and will be supplied for free by swashbuckler. I'd use a rapier, so I guess some of those weapon focus type feats? Other than that, no idea.

It should be simple to put together. 3 levels of swashbuckler, followed by as many wizard levels as I need to open up eldtritch knight, 10 levels of that and then back to finish off wizard.

In terms of equipment, it looks like I would be limited to light armour or robe types in order to keep the swashbuckler bonuses and the maximum dex bonus. No shields, or again I lose bonuses. As mentioned, I'd use a rapier. There are some decent ones, right?

I don't know if choosing a spell specialisation is a good idea, or if I should remain a generalist.

Race ... I'd prefer human. I wouldn't be crippling myself by not taking air gensai instead? That race has better bonuses for this design. However the -2 charisma could hurt in the campaign since I want to be a smart talkative type.

Someone please point out the incredibly obvious thing I have missed which makes this entire idea a bad one. Should I have managed to create something viable, a little help with my skills, stats and feats, please?

Rapier. Fireballs. One of those white shirts with the big baggy sleeves. Sounds fun.

TevashSzat

12-28-2008, 21:26

I had a fairly intricate build worked out. Basically, my aim was a wizard that could do well in close quarter fighting.

IIRC, it ended up being

10 Wizard
10 Blackguard
10 Duelist

Basically, with 10 Wizard/Blackguard, I could cast all wizard spells. I pumped up Int which allows for higher spell dcs and synergizes with Duelist, giving me +1 AC for every Int + modifier. Basically, I ended up being a wizard that could tank b/c of parry mode.

The feats are really tricky since you have to balance Duelist feats with Wizard ones, but everything worked out in the end. If you need it, i can try to remember a more exact version of what I did

Wow.....I just realized how much of an idiot I am. How the heck did I write Blackguard when I meant eldricht knight????

Basically, your build with swashbuckler is a more offensive (melee wise) but less defensive build for me. Its up to you, but I prefer Duelist to Swashbuckler. The damage difference can be offset by the flourish that you get from Duelist.

Anyways, going for rapier means that you NEED weapon finesse. It will let you use your dex bonus to attack modifiers instead of str, but you won't get any +dmg.

frogbeastegg

12-30-2008, 20:43

Use the voice commands. V-E-E sets your party into Follow mode. They won't attack unless you command them otherwise, for when you're near a hallway of traps and don't want Khelgar doing something stupid like charging in and setting every trap off. V-W-E sets Attack mode.
For that you earn a cookie. A chocolate chip one. Two simple commands and suddenly my party has a survival urge! Not only that, they are pretty smart in their skill usage and weapon swapping.

Wow.....I just realized how much of an idiot I am. How the heck did I write Blackguard when I meant eldricht knight????
I did wonder why you posted a blackguard in response to a request for good aligned builds :winkg:

It looks like a nice, reliable, easy to understand build. I'd use it if it weren't for my total inability to survive the initial levels as a plain wizard. Hehe, I'm so hopeless I managed to die repeatedly as that cleric!

I have started the swashbuckler/wizard/eldritch knight I wondered about. It's a case of making it up as I go along and hoping it turns out ok.

I went with 18 int, 16 (or was that 17?) dex, 12 con, 10 str. I'll just keep dumping extra points into int until I reach 19, then pump dex. Feat-wise, I have luck of the heroes, able learner, weapon finesse and whatever the remaining class freebies are. I have purchased a +1rapier from the blacksmith at the fort, found some boots which add to tumble, and some gloves of greater concentration. Hehe, still no idea what I'm doing with feats; I'm picking whatever seems most useful when offered. I did 3 levels of swashbuckler, and I have gained my second wizard level. The build is handling with ease the areas where I struggled with the cleric.

The swashbuckler part of the build has proven to be very strong. I'm able to handle most fights without needing to buff or blast with spells. I'm hitting more often and killing far more than the spear using cleric. In tough fights I buff up with shield and nothing manages to hurt me. Magic missiles and the ranged damage cantrips provide a bit of ranged punch. Being a level 2 wizard I don't have many uses or much damage, so they are more of a toy than a tool. If a battle gets a bit rough I can turn on combat finesse and parry modes, and sit there blocking most incoming attacks whilst my party do the killing.

With this character the game's proving to be quite absorbing.

TevashSzat

12-30-2008, 21:49

As for survival, one word: stoneskin

Basically, once you get that, you're set and can survive fights. By the time stoneskin wears off, its usually time for your party to rest anyways

Kekvit Irae

12-31-2008, 04:36

As for survival, one word: stoneskin

Basically, once you get that, you're set and can survive fights. By the time stoneskin wears off, its usually time for your party to rest anyways

Taking all five Fey Heritage feats instead is a wonderful choice as well. 5/Cold Iron damage reduction is nothing to sneeze at, especially when combined with other feats/class abilities that grant damage reduction (19th level Warlock with all Fey Heritage feats gets 10/Cold Iron damage reduction, making the Warlock tank almost as well as a Fighter).
And Eldritch Knight needs damage reduction to stay alive, since the whole PrC is a waste except for the Rogue hitpoints and Fighter BAB.

caravel

01-01-2009, 00:37

I haven't played any of the Bioware games since the days of BG, IWD, BG2 and Torment. Is NWN any good? I've seen it on the buget label and thought about picking it up.

Kekvit Irae

01-01-2009, 06:25

NWN1 is only enjoyable with both expansions (the original campaign really sucks, but the expansion campaigns are pure love).
NWN2 is enjoyable with or without the expansions, just be sure to install the player-made AI modifications.

johnhughthom

01-08-2009, 05:36

I'm contemplating giving NWN2 another go, played it when it came out and quite enjoyed it but got very frustrated with the companion AI. I'm not sure how far I got in the game but I played it for quite a while, I hadn't got the stronghold yet. I was attacking some sort of thief den when I got totally ****ed off. I was wondering if anybody could tell me how far into the game I was (not a lot of info to go on I know) as I don't think I'll bother unless I was less than half way through.

Vladimir

01-08-2009, 16:26

johnhughthom

01-08-2009, 16:50

I was actually asking if anybody had an idea how far through the game I was, I had read about the AI mods which was what put me in mind to give it another go. I don't want to tread through the same stuff again only to find I was close to the end.

TevashSzat

01-08-2009, 20:52

johnhughthom

01-08-2009, 21:06

That's great, thanks a lot TevashSzat. My weekend is sorted now.:beam:

Meldarion

01-08-2009, 23:08

Have they fixed the bug that prevented warlocks not being able to overcome spell resistance yet? If they haven't avoid them. When building a mage character, if its for the AI use a wizard.

Favoured Souls - Superb class, best healers in the game and can deal as much melee damage as fighters with the right feat & spell selection.

Kekvit Irae

01-08-2009, 23:21

Have they fixed the bug that prevented warlocks not being able to overcome spell resistance yet? If they haven't avoid them. When building a mage character, if its for the AI use a wizard.

As far as I know, I haven't had (much) trouble overcoming spell resistance when playing a Warlock. Sometimes the spells get through, sometimes they get resisted.

Fixiwee

01-10-2009, 19:37

Btw, do we have a generel D&D thread? I'd like to tell you of some hillarious RPG stuff that happend with my group latley :square:

Kekvit Irae

01-10-2009, 21:28

Btw, do we have a generel D&D thread? I'd like to tell you of some hillarious RPG stuff that happend with my group latley :square:

The powers that be have deemed this forum unworthy of classic gaming. :rolleyes:

Vladimir

01-10-2009, 23:14

The powers that be have deemed this forum unworthy of classic gaming. :rolleyes:

Pfft. It should be fine as long as it is phrased like it happened in game. A little artistic license is good. :2thumbsup:

frogbeastegg

01-11-2009, 18:49

What I said was, the arena is intended solely for video games however

On the very rare occasions someone has posted a topic on a traditional game I've tended let it pass because there is no correct forum for those topics. They show up in the front room too, and fit there equally well

The post is still there (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=107582&page=2) for anyone who doubts.

Here or the front room. Just start a new topic. If anyone wants to delve into artistic license then the Mead Hall would also make a good home.

Lemur

02-01-2009, 17:45

So what's the consensus? Is Storm of Zephir worth the time and bother? I almost always roll up some variation on a dwarven fighter, can't say why, it's hardly the most advantageous character in a min/max sense. I just have a thing for squat, vicious, loveable killers. Note that I own a bulldog and a pug.

So, should I make time in my schedule to try this addition or not?

frogbeastegg

02-01-2009, 18:20

I couldn't say. I'm still working my way through the mammoth main campaign.

If it's any help I've seen quite a bit of discussion of it on the other two gaming forums I read, and it's 95% positive.

Meneldil

02-01-2009, 19:45

TevashSzat

02-02-2009, 01:21

I've recently seen a friend playing NWN2, and it immediatly reminded me of the good old BG2 days, so I'm considering giving it a shot. The thing is, I just bought M2TW+Kingdoms, I am considering getting a few old SNES games on my room mate's WII (Secret of Evermore was such a great game, not sure it's available on WII thou), as well as DoW2 when it's released (even though I uninstalled the beta because I think it was bad).

So well, is the game anything like BG2 ? I played NWN back then, and thought it was just plain bad. From the look of things, NWN2 is much better, but will it kick me in the nuts the way BG did ?

I've tried playing BG2 some times before, but never really got into it because the bad graphics and old school interface just drove me insane.

What do you mean by "kick me in the nuts?"

If you mean really hard, then I have to say that the orginal campaign isn't that hard at all unless you turn up the difficulty and don't really plan your character out.

The MotB campaign, however, can be really tough especially if your character isn't really optimized. I remember that huge fight outside the city took me around 10 reloads to finally beat because so many things were all happening at once.

Meneldil

02-02-2009, 01:29

I've tried playing BG2 some times before, but never really got into it because the bad graphics and old school interface just drove me insane.
Blasphemy !

What do you mean by "kick me in the nuts?"

Basically, something like "as freaking damn awesome as Baldur's Gate".

frogbeastegg

02-02-2009, 11:52

The main campaign does have a BG feel to it IMO. If you staple both BG games together you end up with an outline fairly similar to that of NWN2, in that it's about an innocent person from a backwater being thrown out into a harsh world by mysterious events, then struggling to survive and make sense of what's happening. You collect allies along the way, relish every level you gain, get excited when you finally find some decent gear, run off chasing sidequests, etc etc.

I didn't like the game at all the first time I played it. Now, with patches, expansions and the AI mod, it has become very enjoyable. Far, far better than the lukewarm NWN1.

FactionHeir

02-02-2009, 12:46

I think that while the story of NWN2/MOTB is intriguing, the difficulty level is not adequate.
The difficulty level of the OC seemed pretty well scaled with some fights towards the end a tad too easy (defending CK) but MOTB was a complete walk in the park if you used your OC character, mainly due to the high magic and crafting system employed in both campaigns (you know, starting with a mithril full plate with 30/- cold and electricity and immunity to criticals and sneaks with a praetor shield or custom heavy shield with 3 other resistances buffed with magic vestment +5... add to that your MOTB crafting of 15d6 elemental and +8 enhancement...).
I played those the first time with a human fighter/wm, second time as drow wiz/ek and third time as aasimar fs/bg.

SoZ on the other hand was a nice change of pace where really every skill is relevant at the start for survival, but towards the end, you only really need a few due to your keep income going through the roof (anyone for going afk an hour and coming back to see your character is now a millionaire - or simply resting a bit more for the same effect?). Battles there were scaled nicely though the last act was a bit of a slashfest with nothing being able to stand up to your party (even if you got rid of all your cohorts and played with only 2 PCs as I did for the extra challenge). Was fun to have a few places where sneaking was encouraged though and of course an epilogue that you can dictate.
Played that with a yuan-ti fs/dc though i was disappointed at not having a lot of roleplay opportunities with that race as I should have had IMO outside of a few "I am yuan-ti too" which didn't even elicit a response most of the time.

And a hint:

There are no decent morningstars in the game outside of crafted ones. My FS type characters found that out after a while but luckily there's always flame weapon and gmw5 :grin:

Meneldil

02-02-2009, 17:58

I'll definitely give it a try then. I'm really looking for a good RPG, and playing Secret of Evermore/Mana or Seiken Densetsu for the billionth time isn't that entertaining now.

Hope the difficulty level isn't that easy for a beginer. I really liked the fact I had to load quite often in BG (1, the 2nd became quite easy as your characters leveled), because each NPC group you'd meet could easily tear you a new one :clown:

Vladimir

02-02-2009, 19:26

FactionHeir

02-02-2009, 22:38

Yes, the equipment you find in the OC is reasonable without being overly powerful. You should be able to beat the game just fine with a bit more challenge that way.
As for MOTB, the equipment you find is just about as powerful as your crafted equipment (well, not in terms of 15d6 elemental damage, but in terms of enhancers, immunities and the like), so it can't really be challenging I suppose unless you go around more or less all by yourself with minimum amounts of companions (which means though, that you lose out on some dialogue and RP)

Its reasonable to play the game on Very Hard difficulty for the OC and MOTB.

Vladimir

02-03-2009, 01:55

Ah, thanks. The main reason I drifted away from the Paladin is because in normal campaigns it's too simple to wade through the masses of baddies, hacking and slashing. Maybe I'm too old but I don't understand game developers allowing so much uBer 1337 stuff in what should be gritty, dangerous games. I mean, ya it's fun when every hit has a 50% chance to decapitate but it then becomes a game about stuff and not a party adventure. And really, who the hell can carry around 100,000 gold pieces?

:medievalcheers:

Meneldil

02-03-2009, 07:59

Tried it for a few hours today. Looks okay, though the fellows aren't that bright (I'm gonna have to download the AI pack), and the game is sometimes quite confusing, gameplay-wise. If find it hard to click on characters and items, the camera sometimes go crazy, etc. etc.

Only have two characters now, can't say much about the dialogues and roleplaying between them. The voice acting isn't that bad, but I'm not really impressed by the "farmer who comes out of nowhere and is actually an important dude" plot. I would have prefered a more original begining rather than a copy/paste of BG1 (and a billion other games) starting plot but heh, I guess it's much easier to introduce a story in a RPG that way.

My wizard is already level 3. Kind of surprising, given that it would usually take hours to level up in any other DnD game. I plan to multiclass him Wizard/Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep/something else (Pale Master or Eldritch Knight likely, I'm neutral good so I can't be a Red Wizard of Thay, saddly I must add, I would have enjoyed being as annoying as Edwin was in BG1/2)

FactionHeir

02-03-2009, 08:15

Yeah, I'd go with strategy camera mode (left most one) and ignore the whole target thing. That's how I manage to play it :grin:

Zenicetus

02-03-2009, 20:07

I bought NWN2 a while back, but bailed out about 30% of the way through the OC. It was a combination of things, with these being the most annoying (I've played through all the earlier games by the way; the BG series, IWD, NWN1 so I'm familiar with the format):

* Sketchy system performance that should have been a lot better considering the fairly basic look of the graphics.

* Fussy camera control. In battles and dungeon crawls, it seemed like I was spending as much time trying to get the right view angle on the action, as I was on tactical commands. The camera can't cope with something basic like walking up a hill. I know it's been improved from the first release, but it still seems unnecessarily clumsy.

* Tiny map areas outside. You'd walk your partly for what felt like a few hundred yards and hit the edge, having to pause for another scenery load to another tiny area. If you didn't find whatever you looking for, but knew it was on the current area map, then you'd know it was right over there a few paces away because the map was so restricted. There's a pause for loading when you go into any doorway from outdoors to indoors, and often indoors as well. I could live with the indoor loads, but the tiny outdoor areas just felt very cramped, not like moving through a big fantasy world at all. It kills the incentive for exploration.

* Archery seems useless, due to very short engagement distances for combat.

* The commands to control your party are very limited. If you're playing a squishy class like Wizard as the party leader, there isn't a way to tell your tank to open a dungeon door and go in first, without actually taking over that character and being the new party leader. This leads to a lot of frenzied mouse clicking just to get the whole party through a door and into the tactical arrangement you'd like (casters and archer types to the rear). This has been a limitation in earlier BG/NWN series, but I was hoping for some improvement. There's too much incentive to play a stronger class that can lead from the front instead of the rear. I ended up playing as far as I did into the OC as a Warlock to get around that (i.e. ability to wear medium armor), but Warlock is a somewhat boring class as a caster.

Does the AI pack improve that last complaint? I hadn't heard about it before this thread, since I don't hang out on the NWN forums. I might give it another go, if it does. About the only thing that seemed better than NWN1 was the overall look of the world, with fewer repeating/tiled objects like that first game. In other respects, like the small area maps, it felt like a step backwards.

frogbeastegg

02-03-2009, 21:56

I can answer 3 of those. I don't use ranged weapons so I can't answer that one, and I'm not 30% of the way through the main campagin so you have seen more of the game's maps than I have.

* Sketchy system performance.
I had terrible problems with the game when I first tried it. Now it's smooth as can be with all settings maxed. The two expansions make some performance improving tweaks, and the various patches make a lot more.

* Fussy camera control.
It's a fix which costs money, but the first expansion adds a strategy camera mode. Think Baldur's Gate style top down view. In that mode you can leave the camera alone except to spin it around occasionally to get something which a wall is obscuring from view.

* The commands to control your party are very limited.
The AI mod adds quite a few new options, and makes the in-built commands much more useful. With a bit of experimentation I have been able to find commands for most of my needs. For example, you can set a melee character to guard your character, attack anything which attacks you, and to keep a short engagement range so he doesn't go haring off after an archer on the far side of the map. There are no party formations.

TevashSzat

02-03-2009, 22:15

* Archery seems useless, due to very short engagement distances for combat.

Well, its not so much as the short engagement distances, which won't matter as much if you have a good tank, but that archery itself is underpowered.

In MotB, you can craft these extraordinarily powerful melee weapons, but iirc, you can't craft bows and the ones you find are mediocre at best.

Dexterity doesn't add damage, only strength and mighty does and even then its capped at +5 mighty which is extremely low when you are level 20+.

Basically, you can be a fully maxed out ranger/arcane ranger/bard with all of the feats for improving archery and be perfectly optimized and still won't be able to outdamage a poorly planned melee fighter wielding an incredibly powerful crafted melee weapon

FactionHeir

02-03-2009, 22:35

Well archery is great for SoZ at least :wink:

Zenicetus

02-04-2009, 22:03

The AI mod adds quite a few new options, and makes the in-built commands much more useful. With a bit of experimentation I have been able to find commands for most of my needs. For example, you can set a melee character to guard your character, attack anything which attacks you, and to keep a short engagement range so he doesn't go haring off after an archer on the far side of the map. There are no party formations.

Hmm... maybe I'll try it again with the AI mod and see how it goes. It's a shame there's no party formation; some way to get the party through a dungeon door and into a room of bad guys, while keeping the player at the rear when playing a caster or archer. You'd think that after all this time, and all these games, someone would have figured that out. I wonder how Dragon Age will handle this, or if they'll just follow the same format?

Well, its not so much as the short engagement distances, which won't matter as much if you have a good tank, but that archery itself is underpowered.

(snip)

Basically, you can be a fully maxed out ranger/arcane ranger/bard with all of the feats for improving archery and be perfectly optimized and still won't be able to outdamage a poorly planned melee fighter wielding an incredibly powerful crafted melee weapon

I take your point, but I still think the engagement distance is part of it. You have to get pretty close before combat can begin, so you don't have time to fire a couple of volleys before enemies get in melee range. That's one of the main things you want an archer for. If you can get in several shots before an enemy touches you (or your tank), then it makes up for relatively low damage. And an archer should be able to interrupt or damage casters at the rear of an enemy formation very early in the fight, without having to wade forward to get in range. The use of archers just doesn't feel right. If archers were ginned up for more damage, then they still wouldn't be much different, tactically speaking, than playing a melee character. They don't have a true stand-off function in this game engine.

Not to keep harping on archers... but this really screws up playing a Rogue/archer class, which should be a lot of fun with the sneak attack bonus. It just isn't that much fun in this game. This is another area where I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with Dragon Age. With current equipment specs, they should be able to do larger area maps, and (hopefully) larger-scaled battles instead of these little compact fights we get with NWN2.

Meneldil

02-09-2009, 17:43

So, I'm more or less halfway through the main campaign (not MotB), and I'm already planning my pary for SoZ.

I've always played good guys, and my current character is a lawful good Sun Elf Wizard/Arcane Scholar (I'm planning to pick Eldritch Knight or another caster prestige class later on, too bad I can't be a Red Wizard).

So, now, I want to play some evil dudes.
Obviously, a female drow cleric/warpriest/favored soul/whatever sounds obligatory (Viconia woohoo), just as a Red Wizard does (Edwin ftw).
Then I'm kind of lost. The Blackguard actually seems interesting on paper, but from what I've understood, it's a bit lacking in the pure awesomness department. So either an human blackguard or an half-orc/grey orc Frenzied barbarian with a huge ass sword.
Finally, I have to look for a short range DPS, and there, I'm absolutely lost. The bard seems interesting, for role play reasons, but as for a prestige class? Assassin? Shadow Thief? Arcane Trickster (this one look fun, but not really effective) I want a guy who sneak behind people and hit them with two +8 Katanas for a billion*(1d6 damages).

Damn, I really hope they'd bring the party limit up to 6 characters again. 4 is definitely not enough to make an arse kicking group.

FactionHeir

02-09-2009, 17:51

There's a feat that brings up the number of player characters you can have in SoZ. Plus you can always have 2 or 3 cohorts too I think.

Lemur

02-15-2009, 14:58

I picked up Storm of Zehir, thanks for the recommendations. My all-dwarf party is carving a bloody swathe through the lands ...

FactionHeir

02-15-2009, 15:41

Play with fewer characters then :tongue2: Two characters make a fine challenge. More than two, and the difficult goes down the drain as combat isn't scaled.

Gregoshi

02-15-2009, 16:46

This is all good to hear. I recall less than spectacular reviews when NWN2 came out. I'm watching the price of this game tumble at Circuit City. If the sole copy at my local store survives until the 50%-60% off mark, I may get it.

Meneldil

02-16-2009, 15:53

Yeah, it's afterall, a decent game, that reminds me of BG2.

The conversation options are often too clear cut, but there are definitely more of those than in any BG game.

The only thing that really bothers me is the freaking hideous AI. Allowing customization of the AI was a nice idea, but the basic one is so bad that you can't really do anything with it, no matter how hard you try.
Even worse, I installed the AI pack from Nwn2 vault, but it somewhat screwed up when I installed SoZ, and now, I'm like 'wth ?':

- only one of my character (Neeshka) will follow the leader if I don't ask "Follow me", even though nobody is in puppet mode
- weird behavior each time I'm fighting. Like my tank is actually trying to tank. I click on my wizard to cast a fireball of black death, the tank stop fighting, run to the wizard and wait for new orders.
- the opponents' AI is also :daisy: as hell. While I appreciate the effort made so all mobs don't get stuck hitting on the tank, and actually try to attack weaker characters, it only ends up with monsters running everywhere and getting sneak-attacked to death. Or even worse, casters being killed 5 seconds after the start of the fight, because no matter what happens, the 10 orc archers are shooting at him, even though a paladin, a fighter and a rogue are beating their arses.

frogbeastegg

02-16-2009, 16:08

As far as I remember from when I was installing, there's a specific version of the AI mod for Storm. The expansion definitely makes changes to the base AI files as it contains a cut down earlier version of the mod. Logic suggests that could cause problems with files not matching up correctly, and that would result in the garbled behaviour you are experiencing.

If I were you I'd download and reinstall the mod, checking for a Storm version. If that doesn't help, delete the game and reinstall it plus the expansion, and put the mod on last of all. Just keep your savegame folder somewhere safe so you don't lose progress.

English assassin

02-20-2009, 15:35

Warlock is okay power-wise, but it's a terribly boring class to play - using the same few skills over and over and over and over again gets stale very fast. I'd say that selecting a Warlock as my PC was the single most important thing that turned me off NWN2, haven't been able to touch it since.

That was very much my experience too. Click, wait, repeat.

No one mentioned a Druid yet? Druids rock. A Druid/Stormlord would rock even more, if the prerequisites for Stormlord weren't a bit rubbish. (Specifically, what sort of Stormlord is not allowed to use a warhammer)

For me, NWN2 is like a girlfriend you still quite like, but really ought to have broken up with. The AD and D stuff is comfortingly familiar, but the gameplay is dated, and the story pretty average.

I know I'll wind up getting SoZ, but I'll feel guilty about waking up next to it in the morning.

Meneldil

03-07-2009, 22:21

I'm currently playing MotB, (currently at Act II), and I have a few questions:

- My main character is a Wizard 10/Arcane Scholar 10/Pale Master 5, and well, he feels really underpowered.
First of all, his damage output is quite low. For some reason, most of the level 8/9 spells are 'save or die' spells, and are thus pretty much useless against most opponents, as they're immune to death spells.
So I'm stuck with completely uninteresting spells like Gibsby's Grasping Hand, that deals little damage and might (once every two days) stun the target, or lower level area of effect or multitarget spells such as Fireball, chain lightning, incendary cloud, etc.
Thing is, while these spells were okay, and even everpowered in the main campaign, they now kind of blow. Maximazed chain lightning deals 120/60 (and sometimes 60/30, dunno why). Not nearly as good as it used to be when every random monster has like 300HP.
Secondly, he dies really quickly. Like, even though he has 150 HP and about 20 AC, he will get kill in one or two hit every once in a while. It gets really annoying given that he's always insta-ported to a PNJ when there's a dialogue, making him the first target when said dialogue ends in a fight. And I'm not even talking about the (hopefully few) times he has to fight alone (or with the Red Wizardress only): I spend 5-6 rounds to buff him so he doesn't get instaggibed.
It could be that he's not well optimized, but thing is, the Red Wizardress from the MotB campaign is even worse. Less HP, less AC, only a few (mostly useless) spells.

On the other hand, Okku deals like 150 HP of damage each round, has 440 HP, 38 AC (without needing expensive equipment), and basically can take care of any fight by himself. Even Gann and Kaelyn actually deal probably as much damages as my two wizards (thanks god, Kaelin gets some awesome area of effect lvl 8/9 spells).

So, are casters just plain bad in MotB or am I just doing something wrong?

FactionHeir

03-07-2009, 22:53

Well, my favored soul did just fine :grin:
And I played it before that with a wizard/EK which wasn't too bad either.

IMO maximized spell is rather useless (unless you got that feat which makes it +2 rather than +3).
My 9th level would usually be something along the lines of empowered delayed fireball and wail of the banshee. 8th level is empowered disintegrate and horrid wilting. 7th extended greater heroism and empowered firebrand.
You get the idea :yes:

Meneldil

03-08-2009, 00:18

Yeah, as an Arcane Scholar, I got the Improved Maximize and Empower spell feats. I'm gonna try with level 6/7/8 maximized/empowered spells rather than level 9 normal spells are those are severely lacking in my opinion.
Granted, it's fun to one shot 4 guys with a single power word : death or wail of the banshee, but it happens so rarely that I basically gave up on using these spells.
My main complain is that it looks like a warrior can not only take much more hits, but can also dish as much if no more damages as caster, thanks to the uber MotB gear.

As for the favored soul, how is it different from the Cleric, or from the Spirit Shaman ? I first had the feeling it was a kind of sorcerer class for divine spells, but it looks like the spirit shaman took that role. Or is the Spirit Shaman the sorcerer version of the druid class, while the FS is the sorcerer version of the cleric class? I'm tempted to make one my main character for SoZ, but I can't really get how the class works.

FactionHeir

03-08-2009, 01:07

FS is the sorcerer version of the cleric class with very high saving throws and automatic weapon bonuses :grin:
No spontaneous conversion though.

I would go for PW:D as it requires the enemy to be very low on health at which point you probably won't need the spell anyway. Its great for MP but not so much for SP.
The only level 9 spell worth using is actually meteor swarm and sometimes wail. The targeted meteor swarm in particular is rather devastating.
Outside of these, go for the spells I mentioned.

Fixiwee

03-08-2009, 13:26

One thing that still bugs me with NWN2 even though I dont play it atm is the hardcore rules setting. See I am a pen and paper D&D player and I know the rules pretty good. So I tend to set the rules of NWN on hardcore because I am more used to those rules.
But I somehow feel that the game is not ment to play that way. If you wanna throw a maxed fireball into hordes of evil goons you probably will hit your own people half of the time. After all, NWN is not turn-based like real D&D so it makes it real hard to plan AOE spells. Hence I always feel that my mage is completley useless and is only good for spawning haste or something like that.

FactionHeir

03-08-2009, 13:32

I prefer lightning bolt for that reason. And of course because the higher level decent spells are already fire based

Veho Nex

03-09-2009, 00:38

I'm playing the NWN2 campaign and barely past fort locke I think is the name. But Keep getting my butt handed to me by the undead and bandits. Its like as a Dwarf Swashbuckler I can own them one at a time but after three or four come I get owned :/

FactionHeir

03-09-2009, 01:51

Bandits are quite tough at the start. Chances are you will have 1 person dying at least. Try to attack archers as those deal the most damage. And make sure you use those potions.

Veho Nex

03-09-2009, 07:34

Lol, I just checked my inventory when fighting the lizard in the cave, I have like 30 potions

FactionHeir

03-09-2009, 10:13

Tell me about it. I had a bag full of potion stacks by the end and usually didn't use them because I either rested or used the Heal spell a lot :grin:
For a non caster party like yours, this is of course more difficult.

Veho Nex

03-09-2009, 16:35

Well its complete now, Dwarf monk/fighter Tiefling Rouge and a Druid that I'm pumping up with healing spells, Im still getting my butt handed to me over at the graveyard.

Meneldil

03-09-2009, 16:58

Make sure to use the vocal commands a lot, since they work with AI companions.

The game default AI is terrible (it gets a bit better with the AI hak pack), and if you don't use them, you're gonna end up really frustrated.

IIRC,
'Follow me' is v-e-e
'Attack' is v-x-e or v-z-e (playing with a french keyboard, I use z, but I think it's supposed to be x)
'Hold ground' is v-z-z or v-x-x

It makes things a bit better even if not perfect (like, the selectioned character won't follow vocal commands, so you'll have to use them again if you select another companion during a same fight, and casters who are told to attack while having their caster mode off will lose one round if you cast a spell manually with them).

Overall, playing on hard difficulty, I found the game to be quite easy, apart from the few times I had to fight with my main character only (a wizard). Nothing as challenging as Baldur's Gate I'd say.
Did you hire all the characters possible? At the graveyard, you should have Neeshka, Khelgar, and maybe Eleena, plus your main character. I didn't have Eleena, but it went alright nonetheless. Just be careful of the diseases you'll get. As far as possible, Khelgar should be the only one who melee in the crypt if you don't have Eleena, as he's immune to diseases. Make sure to have some cure potions.

Let Khelgar tank, and if you have the Phoenix Bone (found in the Lizardmen's cave before Fort Lock), he'll probably be able to take care of anything by himself, thanks to Power Attack and Greater Cleave. He's that badass.
Depending on your character class, you may give Neeshka a bow or a melee weapon. With my wizard, I turned Neeshka into a two-weapons stabbity rogue, but having a long-range fighter might prove useful sometimes, so if your main is also a melee character, give her a short bow and make sure she doesn't get into melee range. To be honest, camouflage is too much of a pain to be really effective anyway.

FactionHeir

03-09-2009, 21:53

Elanee has Flame weapon, that should get you through the graveyard/crypt/tower just fine.

Against disease, use healers kits or remove disease spell.

Veho Nex

03-09-2009, 22:03

Im leveling them up. Only level 5 right now for the lot of em. But hope to get better healing spellz. I cant seem to find a place that sells kits though.

Meneldil

03-31-2009, 06:16

I finally finished MotB with my main campaign character (Wiz/Arcane Scholar/Pale Master).

A few things:
- both campaigns are quite easy. Despite the fact that casters are severely underpowered most of the time, I played through them in Hardcore without little difficulty. I had to reload a few times, but that's about it.

- unlike the rest of the game, the 2 boss battles are quite tedious and challenging. While I beat the Avatar of Shadow quite easily (the beginning is the only difficult part: you have to keep everyone alive while being assaulted by former allies and monsters), it took me quite a few tries, and the fight itself is about 30 min long.
As for the Faceless Man/Akashi, he's quite uber. I had to try ~10 times, and when I finally defeated him, I only had 2 spells left (I have a +15 int bonus). Safiya was killed mid-combat, but I couldn't have defeated him without her. I heard you can also have Gann with you, which might make everything way easier (as long as you also keep Safiya).

- the character developement is quite good. Managing the relationships with the rest of the crew is almost a game by itself. Some characters are really hilarious. Kelghar is the cliché dwarf warrior, but his attempt to become monk makes him interesting. Sand is nice as a pedantic & arrogant elf, and Gann's attitude is just awesome. Other characters are a bit less interesting, but interacting with them is still entertaining. Too bad there's only one romance option in each campaign.
I might go through it another time as an evil character, but I fear that roleplaying an evil dude will not be as interesting as I will just have to piss everyone off.

- musics are most of the time quite good, though not really awesome (which is to be expected with Jeremy Soule).

- the plot is entertaining. The original campaign has its flaws, and the big bad guy is actually quite blank (though his motives are uncommon), but it's still much better than Icewind Dale.
As for the MotB campaign, I found it to be really great. Few (somewhat) challenging fights, a lot of dialogues. The plotline starts quite slowly, as it takes sometimes to understand what is going on, but once Akashi, Myrkul, the Wall of Faithless and The Red Woman are brought in, it gets really interesting. It's less light-earthened than the main campaign (Gann is really the only funny character), and the small number of available companions are a bit disappointing, but I think MotB plot was actually a blast.

Here's my wall of text. I've been really saddened by NWN1, hence why I never bothered to check NWN2, and I must thank the authors of this topic. The game was great, and in some aspects better than BG2. I'll now try Storm of Zehir, though it's apparently less exciting than MotB.