Question: Kingdom of Massilia

[Skullheadhq]

How do you say that in Greek? Kingdom of Massilia? Basileion Massalias?

[tapanojum]

I'm more wondering on, what the historica boundaries of Massilia was, for a new Massalia campaign. My good and trusty GOOGLE has failed me to provide anything of value.

Was it ever anything more than a Colony/City-State?

(Sorry for hijacking the thread :D )

[Skullheadhq]

nope

[keravnos]

I'm more wondering on, what the historica boundaries of Massilia was, for a new Massalia campaign. My good and trusty GOOGLE has failed me to provide anything of value.

Was it ever anything more than a Colony/City-State?

(Sorry for hijacking the thread :D )

Actually, it was. It had managed a tidy little state in the south of France and Spain. Unfortunately all we know of it is from other peoples' accounts. Therefore its own part seems to get diminished a bit.

What I read of it, seems to suggest that it was a much bigger force than people seem to think. Much like an iceberg, much smaller on the surface, and bigger beneath.

Its expansion was all along the southern coast of France,
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/shefton-museum/greeks/france.html
and it also founded Kallipolis, which was under its control at EB's start, now known as Barcelona.
Emporion was another city in spain, and the last one was called Hemeroskopeion, or "Divining place" as "Hemeroskopoi" were a type of oracles.

In Greek it would be...
Μασσαλία (Massalia).

As it would have a republican system of government, I would hesitate to call it a Kingdom. Maybe a "Republic of Massalia" would fit it.

So far as I know, there was never a king of Massalia but if that is what you wish call them "Basileion Massalias" and you would be correct.

[KozaK13]

http://http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_300bc.jpg

The 1 in the south of france is Massilia...it has a mch larger area than the greek cities in the pelponese and this is close to the campaign start.

http://http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_200bc.jpg then again in 200 bc it is still decently sized..

[keravnos]

http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_300bc.jpg

The 1 in the south of france is Massilia...it has a mch larger area than the greek cities in the pelponese and this is close to the campaign start.

http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_200bc.jpg then again in 200 bc it is still decently sized..

fixed.

[Skullheadhq]

Actually, it was. It had managed a tidy little state in the south of France and Spain. Unfortunately all we know of it is from other peoples' accounts. Therefore its own part seems to get diminished a bit.

What I read of it, seems to suggest that it was a much bigger force than people seem to think. Much like an iceberg, much smaller on the surface, and bigger beneath.

Its expansion was all along the southern coast of France,
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/shefton-museum/greeks/france.html
and it also founded Kallipolis, which was under its control at EB's start, now known as Barcelona.
Emporion was another city in spain, and the last one was called Hemeroskopeion, or "Divining place" as "Hemeroskopoi" were a type of oracles.

In Greek it would be...
Μασσαλία (Massalia).

As it would have a republican system of government, I would hesitate to call it a Kingdom. Maybe a "Republic of Massalia" would fit it.

So far as I know, there was never a king of Massalia but if that is what you wish call them "Basileion Massalias" and you would be correct.

So it would be Basileion Massalias, But what's Republic in greek?

[keravnos]

Republic=Demokratia in greek, but if a state was to proclaim that it was a republic it wouldn't write it as "Republic of Massalia" but as its people or "Republic of Massaliotai". No one would use "Republic" as such in the ancient world as its literall meaning was "rule of the Demos(Demos being the free men of a city)".

As such the correct way for it to be written would be "Demos Massalioton" or plain "Massaliotai"

The ancient way to express was the following: People living in a state rather than state.

In the current scheme of things, we often speak of the "Athens" VS "Sparta" when the ancients would speak about it as "Athenians" VS "Spartans".

The examples that I have seen, as the following coin is clear...
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos9/Massalieton.jpg

it reads "Massalieton" which is genitive for "Massalians". It is Ionian greek from 150 BCE, which is indicative of how they called themselves as a people.... "Massaliatai". The attic greek (which became standard) version of that would be "Massaliotai".

So, what you are looking for would be either "Massaliatai/Massaliotai". Both are correct. If you have to use "repubic of..." format then "Demos Masallieton"

[tapanojum]

Thanks, tons of great information.

If I were to role play this Republic, what direction of expansion would seem historically reasonable? If that is even an answerable question.

[Subotan]

Probably along the coast, in both directions, if you want to RP.

[Skullheadhq]

Thx! I think this answers my question! Have a :balloon2: Keravnos

[keravnos]

Thanks, tons of great information.

If I were to role play this Republic, what direction of expansion would seem historically reasonable? If that is even an answerable question.

I would suggest an expansion all along the Rhône river basin as historically Massalia had colonies there along the river bank as far upriver as navigating it with a wooden boat would allow. Then an expansion towards the rest of Spanish coast and the expulsion of the Phoenicians there. Then the "reconquista" of Sardinia and corsica whose loss had created the Phocaean colonies of France and Spain (Massalia was the leader among them). Next target would have been probably the Etruscans as they allied with the Phoenicians had driven the Greeks from Sardinia and Corsica.

Then, I suppose reclamation of all Sicily and a strike into Carthage itself might be considered.

This is the historical "what-if" that I envision for Massalia should it be a conquering state.

[Subotan]

It would look bloody weird on the map though, and difficult to hold together.

[tapanojum]

Keravnos, that sounds like an awesome and fun expansion actually. Only problem is, Rome seems really commited to taking Massalia.

I may have to Cheat the game at the start in order to have Massalia and the other Greek cities nearby in order to have enough cash to support an expeditionary force as well as enough to stop the constant Roman onslaught.

Or cheat by giving money to the Aeudui and hope they invest in keeping Rome occupied.

Let's just hope that all of my FM's don't die at the first sign of attack, with the great luck I've been having with KH Generals. ;)

[keravnos]

It would look bloody weird on the map though, and difficult to hold together.

True, which is why all Greek colonies at the region were very defensively minded. They did have each a catapult workshop and many catapults on the walls ready and waiting for any incursion to occur. There are excellent finds of catapults from Emporion (now Ampurias), which were mistaken for Napoleon time millitary crates when they were found.

[Maion Maroneios]

There are excellent finds of catapults from Emporion (now Ampurias), which were mistaken for Napoleon time millitary crates when they were found.
Really? I didn't know that information:yes: When you say catapults you mean stone throwers like trebuchets of medieval periods, or something like stone-throwing scorpiones (I never figured out how this can be done scientifically, being a student of Physics and being interested in the mechanical properties of many things) EB offers?

Maion

[keravnos]

Really? I didn't know that information:yes: When you say catapults you mean stone throwers like trebuchets of medieval periods, or something like stone-throwing scorpiones (I never figured out how this can be done scientifically, being a student of Physics and being interested in the mechanical properties of many things) EB offers?

Maion

These are the ONLY catapults that ancients had, the following pic from the newly refurbished Ioannina Archaeological Museum
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos9/DSC00483.jpg

Similar finds from the Achaeron Oracle "of the dead", dated from the time of 167, aka the sacking of Epeiros by Aemillius Paullus. Those below would be from different size catapults.
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos9/DSC00487.jpg

What we now know as catapults were conceived around 400 CE, and would be called "Monangon" or "Single shouldered" in comparison to the ones in the first pic. Their ease of construction, however, and the loss of the earlier catapults during the dark ages, caused the word "catapult" (from greek "kata peltai" =against shields) to mean the later "monangon".

Right now catapult is this,
http://www.redstoneprojects.com/trebuchetstore/build_a_catapult.html

The only thing it retained from the earlier greek "katapeltai" is the twisted rope that is in the base of it, whose twisted momentum becomes force for the "monangon" catapult arm to operate with.

[keravnos]

A more correct map on the placement of Hellenic colonies on French coast, Massalia's territory.

https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos6/ColoniesGreek019.gif

[LordCurlyton]

Out of curiosity, by the time Massalia made the wrong choice in the civil wars that Caesar was in, how much of that was still under their control and not incorporated into one Roman province or another?

[Maion Maroneios]

I see, very intersting and informative post keravnos. I shall have to do some more research on ancient warmachines, as it is a subject that interests me a lot:yes:

Maion

[oudysseos]

Very interesting... and timely for my next periplus chapter. Woohoo!

[keravnos]

Only colony missing is Monaco, or "ΜΟΝΟΙΚΗ" as it was called, for " (of) a single house", seeing that it wasn't that big a colony to begin with.