Palestinian state should be disbanded. Permanently. [Archive]

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rvg

01-08-2009, 19:43

tibilicus

01-08-2009, 19:46

Hamas especially must go, but the Palestinian authority in the West Bank should be dismantled as well, just for the consistency purposes. Let Egypt roll into Gaza. They used to own it, they'll know how to deal with it. Best of all, they will do their best to secure their new border with Israel.
In the same key, the land currently under control of the FATAH in the West Bank whould be transferred to Jordan. Once again, Jordan will have every reason to make the border as secure as possible. Both Jordan and Egypt will be able to crush any possible insurrection in those territories with minimal attention and minimal outrage from the rest of the world.

I can see where this thread is going.

I don't think your original statement even deems a reply. You ignoring the basic fact Palestinians consider themselves their own nation. You can't just take nations away from people not in the 21st century.

Watchman

01-08-2009, 19:48

And the surrounding states don't want them, anyway.

Hax

01-08-2009, 19:53

Israeli state should be disbanded. Permanently.

The Israeli state made an intrusion in a dominantly Arab landscape. I cannot believe that the British were so naïve to think that this would not cause trouble.

==============================

This post is supposed to be ironic. Please don't take this too serious. Thank you

-Hax

Strike For The South

01-08-2009, 20:37

Irony implies some humorous aspect.

drone

01-08-2009, 20:38

Nuke the entire site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

Strike For The South

01-08-2009, 20:42

Nuke the entire site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

At which point we can harvest the glass! See folks! There is ALWAYS a silver lining!

Papewaio

01-08-2009, 21:26

Irony implies some humorous aspect.

Is that statement Socratic or Dramatic? :book:

Papewaio

01-08-2009, 21:27

I say give it back to the Italians. At least when they were there they gave them Aqueducts...

CountArach

01-08-2009, 21:28

So you explained how you propose for this state to be destroyed... yet you haven't explained why. Please do so.

Hooahguy

01-08-2009, 21:30

I say give it back to the Italians. At least when they were there they gave them Aqueducts...
pax romana!
:bow:

rvg

01-08-2009, 21:31

So you explained how you propose for this state to be destroyed... yet you haven't explained why. Please do so.

Why? To achieve peace, of course. If Egypt and Jordan control the current palestinian territories, they will have both the wil and the means to keep the peace.

CountArach

01-08-2009, 21:34

Why? To achieve peace, of course. If Egypt and Jordan control the current palestinian territories, they will have both the wil and the means to keep the peace.
Military conquest never leads to peace. If you truly think there would be no insurrection then you are delusional.

Strike For The South

01-08-2009, 21:35

Is that statement Socratic or Dramatic? :book:

Socratic

rvg

01-08-2009, 21:38

Military conquest never leads to peace. If you truly think there would be no insurrection then you are delusional.

The insurrection will no longer be Israel's problem. If Hamas rockets start hitting Cairo and Amman, I seriously doubt that the Arab league would object to Egypt and Jordan crushing the insurgents like bugs.

Hooahguy

01-08-2009, 21:42

Military conquest never leads to peace. If you truly think there would be no insurrection then you are delusional.
not always. look at WWII

Papewaio

01-08-2009, 21:46

Werewolves.

Strike For The South

01-08-2009, 21:48

Werewolves.

They are called lychens now. Some respect pleeeeeeasssseee

Hosakawa Tito

01-08-2009, 22:13

The insurrection will no longer be Israel's problem. If Hamas rockets start hitting Cairo and Amman, I seriously doubt that the Arab league would object to Egypt and Jordan crushing the insurgents like bugs.

Exactly. I don't recall the Arab League protesting for a cease fire when Hamas was lauching missles into Israel before the current Gaza offensive.

Watchman

01-08-2009, 22:24

rvg

01-08-2009, 22:28

And given the ugly way things went critical in Syria between the Palestinian refugees and Damascus in whatwasitnow, the Eighties?, Egypt and Jordania would want to grab the live and primed problem why exactly ?

Ohhh, I don't know... to help out their Arab brothers perhaps? They talk alot about Arab unity, Arab solidarity, this would be a way for them to make good on their rhetoric.

Strike For The South

01-08-2009, 22:32

[quote=rvg;2102128]Ohhh, I don't know... to help out their Arab brothers perhaps? They talk alot about Arab unity,

Why waste a perfectly good buffer state from which proxy wars can be launched? Brotherhood be darned!

rvg

01-08-2009, 22:51

[QUOTE]

Why waste a perfectly good buffer state from which proxy wars can be launched? Brotherhood be darned!

I think both Egypt and Jordan already got burnt badly enough to lose the taste for those.

Watchman

01-08-2009, 23:27

Ohhh, I don't know... to help out their Arab brothers perhaps? They talk alot about Arab unity, Arab solidarity, this would be a way for them to make good on their rhetoric.You obviously failed to notice they more or less stopped giving a rat's :daisy: decades ago in practice. Pretty sure that's actually one of the reason many of the hardcore Islamist movements think they're sellouts actually.

They may make diplomatic moves and offer some economic assistance (and maybe look the other way every now and then), but you can bet your :daisy: they've zero interest in having the whole problem land in their laps. The economic issues alone send any sensible regime running away as fast as they can...

Incongruous

01-09-2009, 01:24

Well first we would need to force the Israelis back to their UN defined borders and create a Palestinian state. I think Isreal ruled this out a while ago.

As for the current state of the Palestinian nation, how those who created the Warsaw Ghetto would have admired the efforts of Israel in Gaza, though clearly they need to pick up their game in the West Bank.

LittleGrizzly

01-09-2009, 02:26

"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war, and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - W.T. Sherman

Is that a quote from a hamas leader in your signature ?

Strike For The South

01-09-2009, 02:40

rvg

01-09-2009, 05:36

Incongruous

01-09-2009, 06:52

Well the man burned, raped, pillaged and destroyed a great city. He also won his conflict.

Hmm, oh how many Israeli generals this could apply to!

Ja'chyra

01-09-2009, 08:58

No, what we need to do is let Israel deal with its own internal problems, just like us in Ireland.

If we'd all have just left alone years ago it'd probably all be sorted by now, with far fewer deaths.

Husar

01-09-2009, 09:34

I guess we could take it and relocate our "Solidaritätszuschuss" there to build it up, then station some huge blonde guys with blue eyes on the border and the jews will stay out as well. :mellow:

Beefy187

01-09-2009, 09:54

I guess we could take it and relocate our "Solidaritätszuschuss" there to build it up, then station some huge blonde guys with blue eyes on the border and the jews will stay out as well. :mellow:

Or bombed to ashes. Worth a try though

Ironside

01-09-2009, 11:17

Hamas especially must go, but the Palestinian authority in the West Bank should be dismantled as well, just for the consistency purposes. Let Egypt roll into Gaza. They used to own it, they'll know how to deal with it. Best of all, they will do their best to secure their new border with Israel.
In the same key, the land currently under control of the FATAH in the West Bank whould be transferred to Jordan. Once again, Jordan will have every reason to make the border as secure as possible. Both Jordan and Egypt will be able to crush any possible insurrection in those territories with minimal attention and minimal outrage from the rest of the world.

Brilliant idea! So we start the West bank. Are Jordan going to get the whole West Bank or are Israel going to keep the settlements and the surrounding area? The areas behind that new wall? Eastern Jerusalem? The military buffert zones aimed against Jordan (and Syria)?

rvg

01-09-2009, 14:18

Brilliant idea! So we start the West bank. Are Jordan going to get the whole West Bank or are Israel going to keep the settlements and the surrounding area? The areas behind that new wall? Eastern Jerusalem? The military buffert zones aimed against Jordan (and Syria)?

Like I said: the land currently under control of FATAH.

LittleGrizzly

01-09-2009, 14:39

just for the consistency

If we really want to be consistent shouldn't we also remove the terrorists in tel aviv ? infact i think jordan egpyt and the like would be much happier to recieve the israeli lands

Also well were being consistent i can think of a few foriegn goverments that cause alot of problems in the world

Lets remove those terrorists in the white house, give it to those native americans, i never remember them causing any problems unlike some of the newer residents....

There some terrorists in london that could probably use a refresh as well, im not really sure who to give that to though, celts are probably too far interbred between anglo saxons normans and a few others for there to be anyone we could give it back to, lets just destroy britian, its caused enough problems in its time, probably more deserving than most....

Hooahguy

01-09-2009, 14:56

Well first we would need to force the Israelis back to their UN defined borders and create a Palestinian state. I think Israel ruled this out a while ago.

especially because the 1948 pre-defined borders are almost impossible to defend.

LittleGrizzly

01-09-2009, 15:03

Jolt

01-09-2009, 15:05

Permanently? What if the Arab States actually successfully defeat and wipe out Israel and the jews living there? Can Palestine be created then? Or should the victors divide the lands between them and deny the creation of the Palestinian State?

Hooahguy

01-09-2009, 17:40

especially because the 1948 pre-defined borders are almost impossible to defend.

From those nieghbouring states who are itching to attack!!!

errm... actually... they don't really give a damn... well iran does, but theres a country or two in the way there... not that iran would or could even if there wasn't...
yup. i bet you if israel did withdraw to those borders, the arabs would attack.... if they have the :daisy: to do so. i mean, they attacked when we were really weak and still lost.... :laugh4:

LittleGrizzly

01-09-2009, 18:07

yup. i bet you if israel did withdraw to those borders, the arabs would attack.... if they have the :daisy: to do so. i mean, they attacked when we were really weak and still lost.... :laugh4:

Your cocky remark proves my point perfectly, even if the intent is there they can't do anything

but on the intent a few points

1) egypt has that deal they struck, don't they recieve money every year, they don't want to sacrifice that

2) most of the leaders of the arab countries really don't care, thier happy to keep israel as the foriegn enemy to distract domestic audiences from thier lack of freedoms

so i think your wrong on the intent as well. The only major worry israel can have is iran, and they are not a threat, and geography means they couldn't invade if they wanted too....

So.... no worrys!

Hooahguy

01-09-2009, 18:48

The only major worry israel can have is iran, and they are not a threat, and geography means they couldn't invade if they wanted too....

So.... no worrys!

but they could send over a nuke....:sweatdrop:

Watchman

01-09-2009, 20:51

*snort*

Seamus Fermanagh

01-09-2009, 21:50

yup. i bet you if israel did withdraw to those borders, the arabs would attack.... if they have the :daisy: to do so. i mean, they attacked when we were really weak and still lost.... :laugh4:

They were not weak, relative to the Israelis, during the assaults of 1948, 1956, or 1973. Israel's morale, better tactical doctrine, and a bit of luck turned the tide in 1948, 1956 was morale, doctrine, weapon quality, and 1973 was a lucky turnaround strike in the Sainai -- that one was very close at first.

None of these assaults were launched because arab forces thought themselves weak. Also, in 1967, it was precisely to short-punch the buildup of superior forces on all sides that Israel launched the 6-days war when it did (not even waiting for the arabs to land the first blow).

Question their skills, equipment, and doctrine if you want, but questioning their courage or their comparative strength at the time is innaccurate

HoreTore

01-10-2009, 01:57

Disband both states. Israel and Palestine. Both of them have proven utterly incapable.

Now, in the big state-less area you would have then, make a new state, call it "Palisrael" or whatever. This state is completely secular and democratic. There are no special religious laws whatsoever. There are also no special benefits to any group within the country, nor any penalties for any group. Said new state would be multi-ethnic and multi-religious, like the region has been for milennia.

It's the only way to a proper peace.

Mooks

01-10-2009, 08:24

HoreTore

01-10-2009, 08:30

Why dont you make it communist while your at it?

If your making up fantasys might as well go all the way. :2thumbsup:

Uhm.... What? It's a "fantasy" to create a modern(european) democracy down there?

Productivity

01-10-2009, 08:35

Why dont you make it communist while your at it?

If your making up fantasys might as well go all the way. :2thumbsup:

The arbitary creation of Israel was fantasy made real as well and is one of the major reasons why we are where we are at the moment.

rasoforos

01-10-2009, 08:47

especially because the 1948 pre-defined borders are almost impossible to defend.

A nice school classroom argument...

And taking over the world eliminates borders making defense much much easier

I don't want to draw parallels because Banquo's Ghost deletes them :beam: so draw your own...

Ironside

01-10-2009, 09:23

Like I said: the land currently under control of FATAH.

Is that by de jure or de facto? And what about the areas with joint control?

but they could send over a nuke....:sweatdrop:

So... Israel needs the Palestinian territories to be able defend against Iranian nukes. :logic:

I think that argument is somewhat weak though. :book:

Dâriûsh

01-10-2009, 11:01

What Palestinian state?

Tribesman

01-10-2009, 12:05

I don't want to draw parallels because Banquo's Ghost deletes them so draw your own...

Rasforos , if you want to make a comparrison that surely a moderator could not object to why don't you quote someone like Einstein ?

Husar

01-10-2009, 12:59

Rasforos , if you want to make a comparrison that surely a moderator could not object to why don't you quote someone like Einstein ?

He could also quote me, I did that myself sometimes after learning that quoting someone makes a statement more true than just posting one's own opinion. ~D

Furunculus

01-10-2009, 14:04

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

01-10-2009, 16:15

Seamus Fermanagh

01-10-2009, 23:32

Uhm.... What? It's a "fantasy" to create a modern(european) democracy down there?

Everybody keeps saying that about Iraq. Many posters in the other thread are arguing that Israel isn't a democracy. Must be a basic truth about the region.

Che Roriniho

01-11-2009, 00:02

but they could send over a nuke....:sweatdrop:

They wouldn't, because, as I have told you repeatedly before, they are not stupid. If they did, within minutes of their launch, not only would their nuke (If they had one) be shot down, but the US and Israel (remember, 3rd biggest Nuke collection on the planet) would bombard them with theirs.

That really is a statement that lacks entirely of any shred of political theory or forethought.

Quietus

01-11-2009, 16:53

Hamas especially must go, but the Palestinian authority in the West Bank should be dismantled as well, just for the consistency purposes. Let Egypt roll into Gaza. They used to own it, they'll know how to deal with it. Best of all, they will do their best to secure their new border with Israel.
In the same key, the land currently under control of the FATAH in the West Bank whould be transferred to Jordan. Once again, Jordan will have every reason to make the border as secure as possible. Both Jordan and Egypt will be able to crush any possible insurrection in those territories with minimal attention and minimal outrage from the rest of the world.

It's Religion. It's a religious war and all of them are victims. Victims victimizing the victims. It will take many generations before people started shedding their religion in a large-scale fashion (at least in that region ).

Organized religion is not sustainable in a free, modern world. The attrition rate will be too high, especially with the internet around. And the so-called personal religion doesn't count because any and all ritual will die with that individual.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

01-11-2009, 17:08

It's Religion. It's a religious war and all of them are victims. Victims victimizing the victims. It will take many generations before people started shedding their religion in a large-scale fashion (at least in that region ).

Organized religion is not sustainable in a free, modern world. The attrition rate will be too high, especially with the internet around. And the so-called personal religion doesn't count because any and all ritual will die with that individual.

That is an absurd and outdated arguement, and it has been disproven because organised religion is, if anything, on the rise in Europe.

Omanes Alexandrapolites

01-11-2009, 19:23

There is no simple solution to this crisis or any similar. Palestine is Islamic, Israel is Jewish. Jews wouldn't want to be governed by Muslims and Muslims wouldn't want to be governed by Jews. Separate states might work, but the minority in either, whether it be Islamic or Jewish, would be large and probably would be seriously dissatisfied. The desire for national identity would cause any combined state to totally fail (think Yugoslavia or the late Soviet Union) so a dual state solution probably would be best.

This may sound anti-Muslim, but the Jews would probably suffer more - never has there been a non-secular Islamic government that has upheld the principles of freedom and democracy. Maybe a Fatah style secularist government would be in charge, but maybe there wouldn't and placing restrictions on Islamist movements ability to get elected (regardless of how positive that would be) would just be a total contradiction of the democratic system anyhow.

In my opinion, the best option would be to provide a Palestinian state with all the Palestinian majority regions and a Jewish state with all the Jewish majority regions. To resolve the issue of the dissatisfied minority, some sort of rule should be in place that will allow borders between the two states to be pretty much open to allow each side to move to their respective region if they wish to. Alternatively, forced eviction (preferably with compensation) could take place where each side forces their Jewish population or Palestinian popular across the borders to their respective states. That's probably a little unjust, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

Anyhow, just my rather pathetic two cents.

Alexanderofmacedon

01-11-2009, 19:26

We can all thank America's "quest for world democracy" for Hamas coming to power.

How could anyone think making the Isreali state would be a good idea? What a stupid, stupid U.N.:wall:

Incongruous

01-12-2009, 07:57

We can all thank America's "quest for world democracy" for Hamas coming to power.

How could anyone think making the Isreali state would be a good idea? What a stupid, stupid U.N.:wall:

Well, yes and a bit no, one of the major features of Palestinian politics is the quick change in political ideology that captures it. We first had, at the turn of the century, very European Classical nationalism in the works of men like Ibn Al Jazeera (such a great name!:laugh4:), but then we get the Pan-Arabists and the Nasserists, known as MAN (Movement of Arab Nationalism), interestingly, for some, an organisation founded by a medical student George Habash. This profile of the leader largely corresponds to the makeup of the rest of the organisation, young students of the upper middle class and with a high representation of Christians (all those damned Muslims aye?). After the publication of The Meaning of Disaster, by Constantine Zurayek a Palestinain professor, MAN became increasingly Western in outlook. Its focus was on Revenge for al-nakba. But by '67 the party was over. Now we may blame the fall of this great group of thinkers on Israeli warmongering and eventual victory. But also upon the will of the Arabs to achieve something, the hardship proved far too much.

Now Arrafat, a secularist Christian (yet the eternal enemy of the West in the 90's:smash:) was also a Palestinian nationalist, his Fatah movement was increadibly powerful for a decade or so after its surprise victory and rout of the Israelis at Karameh. It fell in love with its own image of the Victor, the crusher of Israelis, thus armed struggle became its favourite response to opression, it was also a movement with deep resentment towards fellow Arabs. In the words of a young man who joined in the 1960's Fatah "reawakend Palestinian national identity", it was probably the one chance the Israelis had at a good deal, they blew because they tend to elect mass murdering racist nutters as leaders. That business with the Phalngists and the camps says it all really.

Now, Hamas was created with the first intifada in Dec. '87, but its true roots lie with the creations of the Brits, not the Yanks. The Muslim Brotherhood, the Gaza branch of which Hamas can claim direct descent from, now there was nothing really wrong with the Muslim Brotherhood in that until the 1980's they remained largley remained non-acticvist and sought to change society through education and cultural works. Unfortunatley it allowed some of its members to split off and form Islamic Jihad.

So both Islamic Jihad and Hamas could be seen as the creations of, the failure of Hamas and The Islamic Brotherhood, the colonial dreams of Britain and the short sightedness of the US. Not to mention Israel.

HoreTore

01-12-2009, 15:03

Everybody keeps saying that about Iraq. Many posters in the other thread are arguing that Israel isn't a democracy. Must be a basic truth about the region.

Do keep in mind that you're not trying to create a democracy in Iraq, you're trying to create a very specific kind of democracy, a US-loyal democracy ~;) that makes things much harder...

Anyway, Iraq and Israel are miles away from each other. And I don't mean geographically.

Idaho

01-12-2009, 23:45

There is no Palestinian state. Just a deliberately crippled country that has been hobbled, attacked and crippled so that Israel and the US can say "look - they can't organise themselves".

What other country in the world operates in the same conditions? Blockade, military occupation, control of it's water by occupying forces, relentless land grabs, evictions, assaults by army and settlers, etc, etc... Not to mention the elected government is declared a pariah state and bombed.

Israel continues the myth that the Arabs are desperate to attack them. Even though for over 35 years all the attacks have gone the other way.

Israel is doomed. Not from without, but from within. It's internal rationale and morality is bankrupt.

Hooahguy

01-12-2009, 23:56

Israel is doomed. Not from without, but from within. It's internal rationale and morality is bankrupt.

doomed from what? israel, contrary to what you think, is a thriving country. by no means is it doomed. while it is a very liberal country, and people are divided, it wont bring the country down.

Tribesman

01-13-2009, 00:22

it is a very liberal country
Wow , you still havn't read your governments reports on Israel have you .:dizzy2:

Hax

01-13-2009, 00:29

..perhaps in comparison with ehm..Syria?

Hooahguy

01-13-2009, 01:22

Wow , you still havn't read your governments reports on Israel have you .:dizzy2:
liberal as in the sense that all views are allowed to be spoken, free speech, ect. the US and most european countries are liberal in that sense.

tibilicus

01-13-2009, 01:34

liberal as in the sense that all views are allowed to be spoken, free speech, ect. the US and most european countries are liberal in that sense.

It depends what your interpretation of liberal is and what you mean by it. A lot of people will see a liberal country as one which has a liberal government running it.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-13-2009, 03:17

..perhaps in comparison with ehm..Syria?

http://freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=363&year=2008

Syria - Not Free
Israel - Free
Palestinian Authority - Not Free

Tribesman

01-13-2009, 03:40

Syria - Not Free
Israel - Free
Palestinian Authority - Not Free

Hey Mars you missed one out , the Israeli occupied territories get a lower score than the PA administered territory

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-13-2009, 03:42

Hey Mars you missed one out , the Israeli occupied territories get a lower score than the PA administered territory

The difference is one point under the political rights section, and applies only to a small part of Israeli territory, and not to Israel proper.

Tribesman

01-13-2009, 04:06

The difference is one point under the political rights section, and applies only to a small part of Israeli territory, and not to Israel proper.
Tell that to the Israelis , they seem to think the occupied territories are proper Israel .:idea2:
Still its nice to see they are improving
The civil liberties rating for the Israeli-occupied territories declined from 5 to 6 due to a combination of Israeli military incursions, restrictions on the delivery of food aid, and violent dispersals of protests.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-13-2009, 04:17

Tell that to the Israelis , they seem to think the occupied territories are proper Israel .:idea2:
Still its nice to see they are improving
The civil liberties rating for the Israeli-occupied territories declined from 5 to 6 due to a combination of Israeli military incursions, restrictions on the delivery of food aid, and violent dispersals of protests.

The one for the Hamas administered territories - you know, the people you love to defend - is very interesting, if you would care to view it.

Banquo's Ghost

01-13-2009, 09:03

The one for the Hamas administered territories - you know, the people you love to defend - is very interesting, if you would care to view it.

I don't think I have seen Tribesman take any position that shows he loves to defend Hamas. What he loves doing is pricking holes in people's cherished but erroneous opinions - whatever side they happen to be on.

He absolutely hates it when I say this but he is the epitome of Socrates in this forum. I have always found that when I research his cryptic and infuriating commentaries, he is invariably spot on. By doing this before posting, I have usually decided to eat my words before challenging his points. That's not to say he's not debatable, but one can learn a lot about one's own prejudices. Tribesy, for all his bluster, is incredibly well informed.

I just wish he wouldn't be so beastly so that I don't have to force him to drink hemlock from time to time. My, how I understand those Athenians.

HoreTore

01-13-2009, 09:23

liberal as in the sense that all views are allowed to be spoken, free speech, ect. the US and most european countries are liberal in that sense.

Free speech? Sorry, that no longer exists in Israel. The freedom to say what your government wants you to say isn't free speech. Free speech is to say what they don't want you to say. As that is no longer possible, Israel does not have free speech.

Idaho

01-13-2009, 10:56

doomed from what? israel, contrary to what you think, is a thriving country. by no means is it doomed. while it is a very liberal country, and people are divided, it wont bring the country down.

It's a military state propped up by the US and founded on ethnic cleansing and racism. It'll have to pay the piper one day. Maybe in the next 10 years when the US drops to 3rd or 4th economy in the world and starts to question the amount of money it gives to Israel.

Tribesman

01-13-2009, 11:28

I don't think I have seen Tribesman take any position that shows he loves to defend Hamas.
Bollox , Hamas is my favouritest bunch of people in the whole world , I love them so much that I am rewriting human biology so I can have their babies .

Husar

01-13-2009, 12:31

I don't think I have seen Tribesman take any position that shows he loves to defend Hamas. What he loves doing is pricking holes in people's cherished but erroneous opinions - whatever side they happen to be on.

He absolutely hates it when I say this but he is the epitome of Socrates in this forum. I have always found that when I research his cryptic and infuriating commentaries, he is invariably spot on. By doing this before posting, I have usually decided to eat my words before challenging his points. That's not to say he's not debatable, but one can learn a lot about one's own prejudices. Tribesy, for all his bluster, is incredibly well informed.

I just wish he wouldn't be so beastly so that I don't have to force him to drink hemlock from time to time. My, how I understand those Athenians.
That's been my stance as well for a long time but since I don't count much and can't express myself too well my opinion is always discarded. :shrug:
The funny thing is that he is also usually nice to me, maybe because I don't always pretend to know everything when I don't. Just a tip from your friendly neighborhood Husar. ~;)

Bollox , Hamas is my favouritest bunch of people in the whole world , I love them so much that I am rewriting human biology so I can have their babies .

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Hooahguy

01-13-2009, 13:04

It's a military state propped up by the US and founded on ethnic cleansing and racism. It'll have to pay the piper one day. Maybe in the next 10 years when the US drops to 3rd or 4th economy in the world and starts to question the amount of money it gives to Israel.
racism.... hmmm.....
bollox. i proved you wrong in the last israel thread (now locked) and ill prove you wrong again here.

o ya, and about that ethnic cleansing thing, also, what :daisy:.

Hooahguy

01-13-2009, 13:06

Free speech? Sorry, that no longer exists in Israel. The freedom to say what your government wants you to say isn't free speech. Free speech is to say what they don't want you to say. As that is no longer possible, Israel does not have free speech.
have you ever been to israel? theres an insane amount of free speech. so dont even talk. you say there isnt free speech, but that is such :daisy:

HoreTore

01-13-2009, 13:11

have you ever been to israel? theres an insane amount of free speech. so dont even talk. you say there isnt free speech, but that is such :daisy:

Sorry, but no. To have free speech, you must have a free press. And a free press means that the state does not try to dictate the press in any way. And that's exactly what they're doing in Gaza right now. So no, there isn't a complete freedom of speech in Israel, as of now. There is simply no excuse for what they are doing.

Granted, it's nothing like what you see in dictatorships, but Israel does belong in the same category as countries like Russia.

Hooahguy

01-13-2009, 13:17

HoreTore

01-13-2009, 13:23

whoa, no free press? what are you talking about? while most of the mainstream newspapers are for the gaza campaign, but there are a whole bunch of smaller ones against it. just go look at an israeli news stand.

you know, right as the US went into iraq and afganistan, im sure most newspapers supported it- did that mean there wasnt free press then?

I'm not talking about supporting a war or not. I'm talking about the fact that no news papers are allowed entry into Gaza, we are not allowed to learn the truth about what is going on there.

And yes, the US did let independent journalists into both Afghanistan and Iraq, and made no efforts to keep them out. That's what freedom of speech means.

Edit: Also, you might want to add their lies and slandering about the only 2 westerners who have been in Gaza(Gilbert&Fosse) to that list. If it was done by Israeli journalists there wouldn't be a problem, but the lies come from Israeli government officials... That's something quite different.

Hooahguy

01-13-2009, 13:26

I'm not talking about supporting a war or not. I'm talking about the fact that no news papers are allowed entry into Gaza, we are not allowed to learn the truth about what is going on there.

And yes, the US did let independent journalists into both Afghanistan and Iraq, and made no efforts to keep them out. That's what freedom of speech means.

Edit: Also, you might want to add their lies and slandering about the only 2 westerners who have been in Gaza(Gilbert&Fosse) to that list. If it was done by Israeli journalists there wouldn't be a problem, but the lies come from Israeli government officials... That's something quite different.
the reason that i imagine why israel isnt letting reporters in there is because they dont want them getting killed. :rolleyes:

before this whole thnig started reporters were allowed in. just not now. thats not restricting free speech, thatsprotecting lives.

HoreTore

01-13-2009, 13:34

the reason that i imagine why israel isnt letting reporters in there is because they dont want them getting killed. :rolleyes:

before this whole thnig started reporters were allowed in. just not now. thats not restricting free speech, thatsprotecting lives.

Sorry, I'll have to go tribesey here:

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

I've heard that excuse from Israeli government officials. It makes me wonder, just how stupid do they think we are? War-time reporters are fully aware of what they are doing, fully aware of all risks and are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves. To say that this is to protect their lives is just utter rubbish.

The one and only reason Israel keeps reporters out of Gaza is to keep the truth from the world, to prevent getting bad PR.

Gaza has been emptied of westerners over the last 6 months. Of course this is a planned action from the Israeli government, to prevent the kind of bad press they got during the last war in Lebanon. When the war started, there were 0 westerners in gaza, no independent press to report what is going on. To say that wasn't planned is a slap in the face of every intelligent form of life on this planet.

Idaho

01-13-2009, 14:20

o ya, and about that ethnic cleansing thing, also, what :daisy:.

It's well documented. The massacre at Eliabun, the Deir Yassin massacre, Plan Delat. Do you actually know anything about the creation of Israel? :book:

Idaho

01-13-2009, 14:26

the reason that i imagine why israel isnt letting reporters in there is because they dont want them getting killed. :rolleyes:

Yeah - Israel is always careful to avoid killing journalists :rolleyes:

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssFinancialServicesAndRealEstateNews/idUSB75721720080515

Tribesman

01-13-2009, 15:42

before this whole thnig started reporters were allowed in.
Well its already been done , but that deserves another
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Maybe if reporters had a teleport system they were allowed in , but if the crossings are closed then in the absence of such a device they were definately not allowed in .

o ya, and about that ethnic cleansing thing, also, what .
Ah so you don't know what ethnic cleansing is then

the expulsion, imprisonment, or killing of an ethnic minority by a dominant majority in order to achieve ethnic homogeneity

as Idaho said it is well documented and still happening .
The continued government abuse of the "absentee" law is a prime example , this expulsion continues despite repeated cases in the Israeli courts which say the government must stop .

i proved you wrong in the last israel thread (now locked) and ill prove you wrong again here.

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Stop it hurts
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Is that an imaginary thread or is that the one where you demonstrated major failings when it comes to the scope of your knowledge ?
In fact could it be more accurately described as you demonstrating an almost complete lack of knowledge on the topic ?

Hooahguy

01-13-2009, 16:40

It's well documented. The massacre at Eliabun, the Deir Yassin massacre, Plan Delat. Do you actually know anything about the creation of Israel? :book:
ignore the fact that the jewish agency and the haganah, which were the governing forces, immediatly condemned the massacres and after the war disarmed the irgun and palmach.

btw the arabs also massacred jews as well, so it goes both ways.

rory_20_uk

01-13-2009, 16:54

Israel often seems to act, then afterwards (sometimes after considerable prodding, or attention drawn to unfortunate evidence) find out that what it did was illegal. A perfuctory apology is then forthcoming and... that's it basically.

An argument of "yeah, so did they" isn't that great when a democratic state is having its actions contrasted with despots and terrorosts.

~:smoking:

Banquo's Ghost

01-13-2009, 17:05

Sorry, but no. To have free speech, you must have a free press. And a free press means that the state does not try to dictate the press in any way. And that's exactly what they're doing in Gaza right now. So no, there isn't a complete freedom of speech in Israel, as of now. There is simply no excuse for what they are doing.

Granted, it's nothing like what you see in dictatorships, but Israel does belong in the same category as countries like Russia.

I think you are being a little disingenuous here - or more likely, taking your view to the extreme, as ever.

Almost all military conflicts impose some sort of censorship on the press. When the UK went off to the Falklands, the press were conveniently housed (for their safety and comfort of course :wink:) in the ships of the Task Force. When they were finally allowed out into the fresh air, they were given briefings which they were at liberty to send back home - via the military communication network, which allowed us to censor any "interesting" perspectives. Censorship of the Northern Ireland conflict bordered, at times, on the farcical (anyone remember the gem of "actors" speaking the words of proscribed persons? :laugh4:)

No military in their right mind allows unrestricted journalistic access - people get killed that way, and not just journalists. Sometimes it's very loose restrictions, sometimes its the belly of an aircraft carrier.

Even in peacetime, the state always tries to dictate to the press. Governments love to control the media agenda. The question is, do they succeed? Not in Israel, as even a cursory glances at internet sources will show you. There's an awful lot of Palestinian sources supplying the world's media - which lets face it, is just a brilliant PR move by Israel, which in parallel then complains that journos only report Hamas sources. :stupido2:

Freedom for the media in Israel is really quite substantial, easily comparable to that in Europe. The measure is how much commentary antithetical to the government is allowed. By that measure, there's a lot of criticism - despite nearly 90% of Israelis being quite supportive of the war.

Idaho

01-13-2009, 17:58

ignore the fact that the jewish agency and the haganah, which were the governing forces, immediatly condemned the massacres and after the war disarmed the irgun and palmach.

btw the arabs also massacred jews as well, so it goes both ways.

I'm not ignoring the 'fact' at all. As Rory says - it isn't that relevant. Israel has always used terror to displace the resident populations. It still does it:

Israeli Commander says hundreds of settlers involved in violence against Palestinians (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7647991.stm)

B'Tselem - Settler Violence (http://www.btselem.org/english/Settler_Violence/)

Protests against Hebron Settler violence (http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKTRE4B44M620081205)

Are you seeing a pattern on these threads hooahguy? You come out with some nonsense proconception, and I show you a range of sources that show you overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

The way the org normally works when this happens is that the right-wingers get angry, start insulting people and the thread gets closed.

:book:

Tribesman

01-13-2009, 18:14

ignore the fact that the jewish agency and the haganah, which were the governing forces, immediatly condemned the massacres and after the war disarmed the irgun and palmach.

Bloody hell !!!! :dizzy2:
Right lets get back to some simple basics of Israeli history for ya .
Palmach was not disarmed by Haganah it was part of Haganah , when the IDF was created it formally became the Negev and Yiftach brigades of the IDF.
Irgun was not disarmed by Haganah it was incorporated back into the organisation and dissolved into the IDF .
Lehi ....well thats a bit more complicated , officialy it was dissolved and incorporated into the IDF with an amnesty deal seven weeks after the massacres , yet it was still murdering people months later .

at times, on the farcical (anyone remember the gem of "actors" speaking the words of proscribed persons? :laugh4:)

It took them quite a while to get actors who could say "situation" the right way :2thumbsup:

The way the org normally works when this happens is that the right-wingers get angry, start insulting people and the thread gets closed.

Hey be fair , often it happens that the repeated tide of ignorance and baseless "facts" get too much and I call people thick as pig excrement and then the thread gets locked .

HoreTore

01-13-2009, 18:18

I think you are being a little disingenuous here - or more likely, taking your view to the extreme, as ever.

Almost all military conflicts impose some sort of censorship on the press. When the UK went off to the Falklands, the press were conveniently housed (for their safety and comfort of course :wink:) in the ships of the Task Force. When they were finally allowed out into the fresh air, they were given briefings which they were at liberty to send back home - via the military communication network, which allowed us to censor any "interesting" perspectives. Censorship of the Northern Ireland conflict bordered, at times, on the farcical (anyone remember the gem of "actors" speaking the words of proscribed persons? :laugh4:)

No military in their right mind allows unrestricted journalistic access - people get killed that way, and not just journalists. Sometimes it's very loose restrictions, sometimes its the belly of an aircraft carrier.

Even in peacetime, the state always tries to dictate to the press. Governments love to control the media agenda. The question is, do they succeed? Not in Israel, as even a cursory glances at internet sources will show you. There's an awful lot of Palestinian sources supplying the world's media - which lets face it, is just a brilliant PR move by Israel, which in parallel then complains that journos only report Hamas sources. :stupido2:

Freedom for the media in Israel is really quite substantial, easily comparable to that in Europe. The measure is how much commentary antithetical to the government is allowed. By that measure, there's a lot of criticism - despite nearly 90% of Israelis being quite supportive of the war.

Well that'll be the british. I will leave you to your own royal endeavors and arrogantly point at the media present in Iraq(both major norwegian tv-stations had people in Baghdad during the invasion), Afghanistan(same) and the balkan wars(again, lots of media).

And hey, I'm moderate in my views, at least compared to a dutch journalist at the gaza border who didn't even regard Israel as a democracy anymore.

But, to make your two examples relevant to this situation; in either or both the falklands and northern ireland, were there any high court rulings saying that the journalists should be allowed, which the british government then promptly ignored?

Tribesman

01-13-2009, 18:21

were there any high court rulings saying that the journalists should be allowed, which the british government then promptly ignored?

Oh my , Hore has definately landed a prime specimen there .

HoreTore

01-13-2009, 18:27

Oh my , Hore has definately landed a prime specimen there .

*taps tribesman's shoulder to get him to explain just what he meant by that, as a norwegian's brain is frozen during the winter months and is unable to understand tribesmanspeech*

Incongruous

01-13-2009, 21:47

racism.... hmmm.....
bollox. i proved you wrong in the last israel thread (now locked) and ill prove you wrong again here.

o ya, and about that ethnic cleansing thing, also, what :daisy:.

I once again use the great John Pilger to inform, forgive my almost disciple like love for this man.

the infamous "Plan D" (that is Plan Dalet) of 1947-48 resulted in the murderous depopulation of 369 Palestinian towns and villages by the Haganah (Israeli army) and that massacre upon massacre of Palestinian civilians in such places as Deir Yassin, al-Dawayima, Eilaboun, Jish, Ramle and Lydda are referred to in official records as "ethnic cleansing". Arriving at a scene of this carnage, David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, was asked by a general, Yigal Allon: "What shall we do with the Arabs?" Ben-Gurion, reported the Israeli historian Benny Morris, "made a dismissive, energetic gesture with his hand and said, 'Expel them'".

The order to expel an entire population "without attention to age" was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, a future prime minister promoted by the world's most efficient propaganda as a peacemaker.

And here is the truth about Israeli genocide

In Gaza, the enforced starvation and denial of humanitarian aid, the piracy of life-giving resources such as fuel and water, the denial of medicines, the systematic destruction of infrastructure and killing and maiming of the civilian population, 50 per cent of whom are children, fall within the international standard of the Genocide Convention. "Is it an irresponsible overstatement," asked Richard Falk, UN special rapporteur for human rights in the occupied Palestinian territories and international law authority at Princeton University, "to associate the treatment of Palestinians with this criminalised Nazi record of collective atrocity? I think not."

Go ahead, try and prove him wrong.

Try and downplay the facts for as long as you want, the only fact that matters is that when a man like Falk uses a term like Nazi in relation to Israeli attrocity, time for Israel and its absurd proponents has all but run out.

More reports about Israeli plans, this time about another Plan D, this time Plan Dagan.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0901/S00040.htm

Hax

01-13-2009, 22:57

hoaahguy, you keep turning the argument in your favour.

Let's make it a bit easier:

Do you or do you not deny that Israel has commited massacres?

HoreTore

01-13-2009, 23:03

hoaahguy, you keep turning the argument in your favour.

Let's make it a bit easier:

Do you or do you not deny that Israel has commited massacres?

"But mooooooooom, the other kid was throwing stones at the windows toooooooooo"

Hooahguy

01-13-2009, 23:37

hoaahguy, you keep turning the argument in your favour.

Let's make it a bit easier:

Do you or do you not deny that Israel has commited massacres?
no, i do not deny.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-13-2009, 23:49

"But mooooooooom, the other kid was throwing stones at the windows toooooooooo"

Isn't that exactly the argument the pro-Palestinian side has been using on these forums as well?

Lemur

01-14-2009, 00:19

It's okay, guys, Joe the Plumber is sorting things out over there.

Enjoy! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NybCWzgxFd8)

Tribesman

01-14-2009, 00:24

*taps tribesman's shoulder to get him to explain just what he meant by that, as a norwegian's brain is frozen during the winter months and is unable to understand tribesmanspeech*

An explanation ????
Oh OK then .
Well Hore if you are standing on the shores of a fjord with your frozen brain and you pull out a fish then you have simply landed a fish , if you pull out a very decent fish you have landed a prime fish , if you pull out a really exceptional well conditioned fish that really is the ultimate expected for that species of fish then you have landed a prime specimen .
So since the direction of that little tangent in the topic was about freedom of the press and government actions regarding it then mentioning restrictions on reporters would be a fair catch .
Mentioning courts ruling that the government must stop the restrictions is a prime catch .
But as this goes to the government ignoring its nations own courts rulings then it is a prime specimen and should be stuffed and mounted so people with their little fishy fables about the decent freedom loving government can see exactly what is on display for all who wish to actually look .

Isn't that exactly the argument the pro-Palestinian side has been using on these forums as well?
Obviously you havn't noticed , but most people are condemning both sides on this forum .
The reason many can seem to come across as "pro-Palestinian" is because most of the pro-Israeli posts which those posts are replies to amount to a huge pile of horse manure interspersed with laughable propoganda and completely invented "facts" .

Tribesman

01-14-2009, 00:32

It's okay, guys, Joe the Plumber is sorting things out over there.

This comment sums up Joe not the plumber or reporter

Are you asking a reporter wearing a Yarmulke about his commitment to Isreal?
But to be fair he actually thought channel 10 was something to do with CB radios .

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-14-2009, 01:06

Obviously you havn't noticed , but most people are condemning both sides on this forum .

Naturally. I do believe the actions of both sides are imperfect - I simply support Israel because I believe it is more representative of our interests in the region.

The reason many can seem to come across as "pro-Palestinian" is because most of the pro-Israeli posts which those posts are replies to amount to a huge pile of horse manure interspersed with laughable propoganda and completely invented "facts" .

There are some individuals who don't seem to be condemning Palestinians at all, but I shall not mention names.

Incongruous

01-14-2009, 01:28

There are some individuals who don't seem to be condemning Palestinians at all, but I shall not mention names.

Go ahead, at least we wil know where we stand within the mindset of the right.
I will start it off with one name.
Bopa the Magyar:smash:

Plan Danet in all its Glory

Text of Plan Dalet ( Plan D) 10 March 1948: General Section

Translated by Walid Khalidi - as it appeared in Journal of Palestine Studies.V XVIII Number 1, 1988. -A.I

The text that follows is translated from Sefer Toldot Hahaganah [History of the Haganah], vol. 3, ed, by Yehuda Slutsky (TelAviv: Zionist Library, 1972), Appendix 48, pp 1955-60.

1. Introduction

(a) The objective of this plan is to gain control of the areas of the Hebrew state and defend its borders. It also aims at gaining control of the areas of Jewish settlement and concentration which are located outside the borders [of the Hebrew state] against regular, semi-regular, and small forces operating from bases outside or inside the state.

(b) This plan is based on three previous plans:

1. Plan B, September 1945.

2. The May 1946 Plan.1

3. Yehoshua Plan, 1948.2

(c) Since these plans were designed to deal with the situation inside the country (the first two plans deal with the first phase of incidents, while the third plan deals with the possibility of invasion by regular armies from the neighboring countries), the aim of Plan D is to fill the gaps in the previous three plans and to make them more suitable for the situation expected to obtain at the end of British rule in the country.

2. Basic Assumptions

This plan is based on the following basic assumptions:

(a) The Enemy

1. Expected composition of forces:

*

The semi-regular forces of the Liberation Army affiliated with the Arab League, which operate from already occupied bases or bases to be occupied in the future.
*

The regular forces of neighboring countries, which will launch an invasion across the borders, or will operate from bases inside the country (the Arab Legion ).3
*

Small local forces which operate, or will operate, from bases inside the country and within the borders of the Hebrew state.

All three forces will be activated at the same time in accordance with a joint operational plan, and will sometimes engage in tactical coordination.

2. Actual operations expected from the enemy' .

*

Isolation and, if possible, occupation of the eastern Galilee, western Galilee, and the Negev.
*

Infiltration into the heart of the area of Sharon4 and Emek Hefer'. in the direction of Qalqiliyyah-Herzliya and Tulkarm-Netanya, roughly.
*

Isolation of the three major cities (especially Tel Aviv).5
*

Disruption of food supply lines and other vital services such as water, electricity, etc.

3. Expected tactical methods:

*

Attacks by the regular and semi-regular forces on settlements, using heavy infantry weapons, as well as field artillery, armored vehicles, and the air force.
*

Air strikes against centers within our cities (especially Tel Aviv)
*

Harassment operations carried out by small forces against transportation arteries and settlements to give the operations mentioned above direct or tactical support. These forces will also carry out sabotage operations against vital economic facilities and terrorist raids within cities.

(b) The Authorities

This plan rests on the general assumption that during its implementation, the forces of the [British] authorities will not be present in the country.

In the event that British forces continue to control certain bases and areas, the plan must be modified to deal with this situation in these areas. Additional instructions will be issued in this regard.

(c) International Forces

This plan rests on the assumption that there will be no international forces stationed in the country which are capable of effective action,

( d) Operational Objectives

1. Self-defense against invasion by regular or semi-regular forces. This will be achieved by the following:

*

A fixed defensive system to preserve our settlements, vital economic projects, and property, which will enable us to provide governmental services within the borders of the state (based on defending the regions of the state on the one hand. and on blocking the main access routes from enemy territory to the territory of the state. on the other).
*

Launching pre-planned counter-attacks on enemy bases and supply lines in the heart of his territory. whether within the borders of the country [Palestine] or in neighboring countries.

2. Ensuring freedom of military and economic activity within the borders of the [Hebrew] state and in Jewish settlements outside its borders by occupying and controlling important high-ground positions on a number of transportation arteries.

3. Preventing the enemy from using frontline positions within his territory which can easily be used for launching attacks. This will be effected by occupying and controlling them.

4. Applying economic pressure on the enemy by besieging some of his cities in order to force him to abandon some of his activities in certain areas of the country.

5. Restricting the capability of the enemy by carrying out limited operations: occupation and control of certain of his bases in rural and urban areas within the borders of the state.

6. Controlling government services and property within the borders of the state and ensuring the supply of essential public services in an effective manner.

3. Assignment of Duties

In view of the operational objectives outlined above, the various armed services are assigned the following duties:

(1) Strengthening the fixed defensive system designed to defend the zones, and coordinating its deployment on the regional level. In addition, the main enemy access routes to the lands of the state must be blocked through appropriate operations and measures.

(2) Consolidation of the defensive apparatus.

(3) Deployment in major cities.

(4) Control of the main transportation arteries country-wide.

(5) Encirclement of enemy cities.

(6) Occupation and control of frontline enemy positions.

(7) Counterattacks inside and outside the borders of the country.

(a) The Fixed Defensive System

1.The fixed defensive system in rural areas depends on two main factors: using protected areas for the purpose of defending the circumference, on the one hand, and blocking main transportation routes used by the enemy, on the other hand.

2. The security arrangements pertaining to the zones in rural areas, originally designed to repel small enemy forces, must be modified in terms of planning and reinforcement to suit the tactical measures expected to be employed by semi-regular or regular enemy forces. This will be effected according to instructions issued by the operations branch in charge of defense and planning in rural areas.

3. In addition, if we take into consideration the tactical measures expected to be employed by the enemy, efforts must be made to make a transition from a positional defense to a regional defense, so that the unit of defense is the region and not the zone.

4, In order to achieve this objective, the following steps must be taken:

a) Transformation of the regional staff from an administrative staff to a general staff (selection of a location, setting up a communications network, etc.)

b) Formation of a regional mobile reserve, to be recruited from the forces appointed to the zones, which would reinforce the forces or carry out counterstrikes in the zones within each region according to pre-arranged plans.

c) Adaptation and incorporation of the plans concerning fortification and opening fire in the zones to those of the region, as far as possible, taking into consideration geographical circumstances and types of weapons used. These plans must also be coordinated with the operations of the regional mobile reserves.

5. Settlements which because of their geographical location cannot be included in a fixed regional defense plan must be organized into local defense zones. Accordingly, they must be equipped to block transport roads used by the enemy, or if tactical circumstances permit, to control the heights, setting up fortifications and barricades and laying mines, etc. This will be done in addition to activating the zone's defensive apparatus. Additional forces must be assigned to carry out these duties, as will be detailed below. These specifications also apply to isolated regions.

6. Blocking the main enemy transportation routes.

a) The main enemy transportation routes which link his lands to the lands of the state, such as roads, bridges, main passes, important crossroads, paths, etc. must be blocked by means of: acts of sabotage, explosions, series of barricades, mine fields, as well as by controlling the elevations near roads and taking up positions there.

b) A system of barricades must be set up in addition to the fixed defensive system. The tactical plans concerning barricades must be adapted to and coordinated with the defensive plans concerning the zones located near these barricades. They must also be coordinated with the regional defense plans if this is possible from the geographical point of view.

(b) Consolidation of Defense Systems and Fortifications

The following operations must be carried out if the fixed defensive system is to be effective and if the rear of this system is to be protected:

1. Occupation of police stations.6

2. Control of government installations and provision of services in each and every region.

3. Protection of secondary transportation arteries.

4. Mounting operations against enemy population centers located inside or near our defensive system in order to prevent them from being used as bases by an active armed force. These operations can be divided into the following categories:

Destruction of villages (setting fire to, blowing up, and planting mines in the debris), especially those population centers which are difficult to control continuously.

Mounting search and control operations according to the following guidelines: encirclement of the village and conducting a search7 inside it. In the event of resistance, the. armed force must be destroyed and the population must be expelled outside the borders of the state.

The villages which are emptied in the manner described above must be included in the fixed defensive system and must be fortified as necessary.

In the absence of resistance, garrison troops will enter the village and take up positions in it or in locations which enable complete tactical control. The officer in command of the unit will confiscate all weapons, wireless devices, and motor vehicles in the village. In addition, he will detain all politically suspect individuals. After consultation with the [Jewish] political authorities, bodies will be appointed consisting of people from the village to administer the internal affairs of the village. In every region, a [Jewish] person will be appointed to be responsible for arranging the political and administrative affairs of all [Arab] villages and population centers which are occupied within that region.

(c) Deployment in Major Cities

Positions will be taken in the large cities according to the following principles:

1. Occupation and control of government facilities and property (post offices, telephone exchanges, railroad stations, police stations, harbors, etc. )

2. Protection of all vital public services and installations.

3. Occupation and control of all isolated Arab neighborhoods located between our municipal center and the Arab municipal center, especially those neighborhoods which control the city's exit and entry roads. These neighborhoods will be controlled according to the guidelines set for searching villages. In case of resistance, the population will be expelled to the area of the Arab municipal center.

4. Encirclement of the central Arab municipal area and its isolation from external transportation routes, as well as the termination of its vital services (water, electricity, fuel, etc.), as far as possible. ,

(d) Control of Main Transportation Arteries on the Regional Level

1. Occupation and control of locations which overlook main regional transportation arteries, such as police stations, water pumps, etc. These elevated locations will be transformed into fortified surveillance posts to be used, when the need arises, as bases for a mobile defensive force. (In many cases, this operation will be coordinated with the occupation of police stations, which aims at consolidating the fixed defensive system.)

2. Occupation and control of Arab villages which constitute a serious obstruction on any of the main transportation arteries. Operations against these villages will be carried out according to the specifications given under the item pertaining to the searching of villages.

(e) Enemy Cities Will Be Besieged according to the Following Guidelines:

1. By isolating them from transportation arteries by laying mines, blowing up bridges, and a system of fixed ambushes.

2. If necessary, by occupying high points which overlook transportation arteries leading to enemy cities, and the fortification of our units in these positions.

3. By disrupting vital services, such as electricity, water, and fuel, or by using economic resources available to us. or by sabotage.

4. By launching a naval operation against the cities that can receive supplies by sea, in order to destroy the vessels carrying the provisions, as well as by carrying out acts of sabotage against harbor facilities.

(f) Occupation and Control of Front line Enemy Positions

Generally, the aim of this plan is not an operation of occupation outside the borders of the Hebrew state. However, concerning enemy bases lying directly close to the borders which may be used as springboards for infiltration into the territory of the state, these must be temporarily occupied and searched for hostiles according to the above guidelines, and they must then be incorporated into our defensive system until operations cease.

Bases located in enemy territory which are intended to be temporarily occupied and controlled will be listed among the operational targets for the various brigades.

(g) Counterattacks Inside and Outside the Borders of the State

Counterattacks will be used as ancillary measures for the fixed defensive system in order to abort the organized attacks launched by semi-regular and regular enemy forces, whether from bases inside the country or from outside the borders.

Counterattacks will be launched according to the following guidelines:

1. Diversionary attacks; i.e., while the enemy is launching an attack against one of our areas, [our forces will launch] a counterattack deep inside another area controlled by the enemy with the aim of diverting his forces in the direction of the counterattack.

2. Striking at transportation and supply routes deep inside enemy territory, especially against a regular enemy force which is invading from across the border.

3. Attacking enemy bases in his rear, both inside the country [Palestine] and across its borders.

4. Counterattacks will generally proceed as follows: a force the size of a battalion, on average, will carry out a deep infiltration and will launch concentrated attacks against population centers and enemy bases with the aim of destroying them along with the enemy force positioned there;

alternatively, this force may split up to carry out secondary operations, such as acts of sabotage and diversion on the enemy's military transportation routes and arteries.

5. A detailed list of counterattacks will be included in the [list of]8 operational targets of the Strategic Mobile Force [PALMACH].

4. Duties of the Armed Services

(a) Allocation of duties in the fixed defensive system:

1. The following duties are the responsibility of the Garrison Force [KHIM],9 defense of the zones and of isolated and fortified posts and formation of the regional reserves.

2. Within the framework of the fixed defensive system, the Field Force [KHISH],10 are responsible for the following duties:

Operations to block enemy transportation routes. For this purpose, every blocking operation will be assigned, on the basis of its importance and type, a specified Field Force unit whose size is appropriate to the nature of the mission.

In addition, the Field Force brigade in question will be responsible for duties related to consolidating the fixed defensive system, as outlined in section 3 (b).

3. In special and exceptional circumstances, Field Force units may be positioned in the regions or zones, or in isolated and fortified positions, in order to reinforce zonal or regional defense. Efforts must be made to decrease the number of such cases, as far as possible.

4. In addition to the duties detailed above, the Field Force's responsibilities within the fixed defensive system generally consist in mounting local counterattacks involving units no smaller than company (larger units should be used if possible) against enemy units while they are attacking the fixed defensive system in order to block their lines of retreat and destroy them. These counterattacks will usually be launched from fixed operational bases which will be specified for the Field Force in the context of the duties for which it is responsible in the region as a whole. These instructions require that the Field Force units be concentrated as much as possible, and not be divided up into secondary units.

5. The chain of command in the cases mentioned above will be in accordance with Addendum 1 to the Order concerning Regional Infrastructure, November 1947.

6. If the blocking system (which the Field Force is responsible for defending) is incorporated into the zonal or regional defensive system, the commander of the Field Force battalion concerned will appoint the commander in charge of the entire defensive system.

(b) In addition to the duties assigned to the Field Force brigade in question concerning the consolidation of the fixed defensive system, the brigade will also carry out the following duties:

*

Consolidation of positions in the cities.
*

Control of main transportation arteries country-wide.
*

Encirclement of enemy cities.
*

Occupation and control of enemy frontline positions. This will be effected in accordance with the operational duties assigned to the various Field Force brigades.11

In order to carry out any or all of these duties, the supreme command can assign units of the Strategic Mobile Force [PALMACH],12 which constitute the country-wide reserves, to the Field Force.

2. During the implementation of joint missions with the Field Force, units of the Strategic Mobile Force [PALMACH] will fall under the command of the Field Force brigade that controls the area in which these units are operating.

3. After completion of the mission, the units of the Strategic Mobile Force [ PALMACH] will rejoin the country-wide reserves.

4. Efforts must be made to ensure that the period during which units of the country-wide reserves are assigned to the Field Force is as short as possible.

(c) 1. The Strategic Mobile Force [PALMACH] is responsible for carrying out counterattacks inside and outside the borders of the country.

2. The supreme command may reduce the number of duties assigned to one or another of the Field Force brigades as it sees fit ( i.e. those related to the siege of enemy cities, control of transportation routes and occupation of frontline positions) and allocate them directly to the Strategic Mobile Force [PALMACH] instead.

(d) The various departments and services of the general staff are required to complete the above planning orders in their various areas of responsibility and to present the plans to the Field Force brigades.

===== Notes ===========

1. This is Plan Gimmel or Plan C.

2. This is an early version of Plan D, so called after Yehoshua Globerman, a Haganah commander killed in early December 1947. Plan D itself was finalized on 10 March, 1948.

3. This was a British-commanded and financed army of King 'Abdallah's Transjordan, units of which served in Palestine under British army orders until the end of the mandate on 15 May 1948. .

4. Sharon is the coastal plain between Haifa and Tel Aviv, Emek Hefer being its central section (in Arabic Wadi al-Hawarith).

5. The two others are Jerusalem and Haifa.

6. These "police stations" were in fact fortresses, fifty of which were built by the British throughout Palestine after the Arab rebellion of 1936-39 in order to control the Arab population.

7. In the original translation, the word `srika' was translated as "combing." The reference is to a search for hostile forces.

8. This list is not in the Hebrew original of this document.

9. [KHIM ] is short for Khayl Matzav, the second line troops. By fall 1947, they numbered about 32,000. See Khalidi, From Haven to Conquest, 862. {Israeli sources give much lower numbers - A.I.)

10. KHISH is short for Khayl Sadeh, the front line troops. By I May 1948, they numbered about 30,000. See Khalidi, From Haven to Conquest, 861.{Israeli sources give much lower numbers - A.I.)

11. See Appendix C, below (A.I. - Not included in the Web version ).

12. PALMACH is short for Plugot Machats, i.e., crushing battalions. By spring 1948. this force was made up of three brigades (Yiftach, Harel, and HaNegev) numbering just above 8,000 men. See Walid Khalidi, From Haven to Conquest (Washington: Institute for Palestine Studies, 1987), 861. (The Palmach was originally formed with the intention of repelling an invasion from Vichy-controlled Syria - A.I.)

Husar

01-14-2009, 01:55

Naturally. I do believe the actions of both sides are imperfect - I simply support Israel because I believe it is more representative of our interests in the region.

Maybe it's time to care about the interests of the region.

Our interests in this region sounds like the typical power politics that started so many proxy wars already. Unless of course our interest in the region is to make it's inhabitants happy and healthy.

LittleGrizzly

01-14-2009, 02:13

I simply support Israel because I believe it is more representative of our interests in the region.

Surely all the problem caused by it and around it, which have negative feedback for us in the west, mean that supporting israel is actually against our interests ?

Infact of all the pro israeli arguments i find the self interest one to be the least true

Strike For The South

01-14-2009, 02:27

It's like deja vu.

Tribesman

01-14-2009, 07:51

I simply support Israel because I believe it is more representative of our interests in the region.

Really , and what exactly would those interests be ?

Idaho

01-14-2009, 11:24

The need for the US to have a strong and friendly military presence on the Levant.

Idaho

01-14-2009, 11:25

Well done everyone - I don't think I have seen a thread where the discussion was so conclusively won both intellectually and evidentually.

Husar

01-14-2009, 14:50

Well, to improve the level of the next discussion on the subject I suggest everybody takes a look at the Onion atlas (http://www.theonion.com/content/atlas) and what it has to say about Israel.

Hooahguy

01-14-2009, 22:22

Well done everyone - I don't think I have seen a thread where the discussion was so conclusively won both intellectually and evidentually.
i wouldnt say that. it just the other side doesnt really have the time to reply to your posts and found that i may as well leave you guys to rant in peace, since i dont have the time anymore to reply....
:2thumbsup:

Tribesman

01-14-2009, 22:41

i wouldnt say that. it just the other side doesnt really have the time to reply to your posts and found that i may as well leave you guys to rant in peace, since i dont have the time anymore to reply....

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
And Hooah proves himself wrong again by replying when he says he can't .

Incongruous

01-14-2009, 23:04

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
And Hooah proves himself wrong again by replying when he says he can't .

:2thumbsup:

Goofball

01-14-2009, 23:20

I say give it back to the Italians. At least when they were there they gave them Aqueducts...

Made the streets safe at night too, so they did...

Hooahguy

01-14-2009, 23:31

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
And Hooah proves himself wrong again by replying when he says he can't .
i meant a reply to your comments, but whatever you want to think.... :wall:

Tribesman

01-14-2009, 23:52

i meant a reply to your comments, but whatever you want to think....
OK now I am really confuseled
So is that a reply to my comment or a reply to my comment ?
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Lemur

01-15-2009, 00:07

I like the idea of giving the Holy Land back to the Italians. What have the Romans ever done for us? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso)

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-15-2009, 02:19

Surely all the problem caused by it and around it, which have negative feedback for us in the west, mean that supporting israel is actually against our interests ?

I'm not going to debate my point, but I will stand by it.

Incongruous

01-15-2009, 02:25

I'm not going to debate my point, but I will stand by it.

What?

Why wont you debate it? Seems a bit odd to me.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-15-2009, 02:28

What?

Why wont you debate it? Seems a bit odd to me.

I'm rather sick of the topic at the moment, which is why I didn't answer your post in the other thread.

Watchman

01-15-2009, 04:47

You wouldn't happen to be stonewalling or anything, would you ?

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-15-2009, 05:16

You wouldn't happen to be stonewalling or anything, would you ?

Hardly, what is the point of doing that? Especially on an internet forum?

Seamus Fermanagh

01-15-2009, 06:14

I think EMM is suggesting that this topic is spinning in circles and not making forward progress of any kind.

As Tosa once said...."Topic is tired and needs a nap"

Incongruous

01-15-2009, 06:28

I think EMM is suggesting that this topic is spinning in circles and not making forward progress of any kind.

As Tosa once said...."Topic is tired and needs a nap"

I would disagree, so far we have hooaguy backing down for "reasons" and now we haf maniac honourably declining the invitation to a duel.

I would suggest Watchman is correct.

I have posted info about Plan Dalet and Plan Dagan, which includes nifty bits of info like, there was a possibility that suicide bombings would cease until Sharon realised it and got upset. Sending over a missile or two.

Or that the "ceasfire"was in actual fact broken by Israel, nifty aye?

Tribesman

01-15-2009, 09:28

Or that the "ceasfire"was in actual fact broken by Israel, nifty aye?
Slight problem there , Israel never broke the ceasefire as such because it didn't really exist for them . The ceasefire was a unilateral declaration by Hamas so only they could break it , but of course they put conditions in their declaration which means that they didn't actually break it either as each episode of violence was seen as a response to Israel breaking those conditions .

I think EMM is suggesting that this topic is spinning in circles and not making forward progress of any kind.

Well that is not surprising .
If you look at the opening post which is quite frankly ridiculous then how could the topic have turned out any different ?

LittleGrizzly

01-15-2009, 10:25

I'm not going to debate my point, but I will stand by it.

I wasn't so much attacking your point (though i disagree with it) i was simply curious what interests israel could possibily represent for us...?

Hooahguy

01-15-2009, 13:07

What?

Why wont you debate it? Seems a bit odd to me.
b/c every time we put forth our opinions they are mocked and ridiculed instead of respected. thats why.:furious3:

Hooahguy

01-15-2009, 13:11

I wasn't so much attacking your point (though i disagree with it) i was simply curious what interests israel could possibily represent for us...?
i would have to say on this that the US would rather support israel than hamas, who would also love to the the US burn as well.
its a no-brainer, really.

LittleGrizzly

01-15-2009, 13:13

b/c every time we put forth our opinions they are mocked and ridiculed instead of respected. thats why.

It didn't seem to bother Tribesman being mocked and ridiculed as a hamas lover, infact i suspect if often ends up with the 'pro-palestinian' camp recieving a lot more abuse with terms like 'anti-semite' 'terrorist lover' and all other kinds of things thrown in. It seems more than the pro-palestinian camp is often insulting israel itself rather than individual posters..

though to clarify if tribesman calls something bollox and it is untrue, then its not so much mock and ridicule but accurate, and if someone continues to get the facts wrong they saying they haven't got a clue is also an accurate statement.

i would have to say on this that the US would rather support israel than hamas, who would also love to the the US burn as well.
its a no-brainer, really.

Your confusing the chicken for the egg here, the reason hamas want to see america burn is because of thier israeli support. So basically you are using one of the effects of supporting israel as an excuse to continue supporting israel.

If i hit someone he will be annoyed at me and probably dislike me. If i use this dislike then as my excuse for hitting him i am only going to strengthen his dislike by using this as a reason for hitting him. Whereas if i take a step back and stop hitting him he will dislike me less, over time he may grow to like me, meaning my reason to continue hitting him was essentially false as i was reinforcing the original problem...

Hooahguy

01-15-2009, 13:17

think again. in the last thread, most of the insults were from your side. also why it was closed down. btw i never mentioned tribesman....

rory_20_uk

01-15-2009, 14:16

No, now over 1,000.

And the Israeli's have fired phosphorous shels at a UN compound. Another hotbed of terrorists, arms dumps and rocket sites...

Link (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5518655.ece)

Link (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5521925.ece)

~:smoking:

Banquo's Ghost

01-15-2009, 14:26

Gentlemen,

Stick to discussing the issues, not speculating on who insulted whom and their moral capacity.

Thank you kindly

:beadyeyes2:

Tribesman

01-15-2009, 15:59

And the Israeli's have fired phosphorous shels at a UN compound.
Come on be fair , they have just said it was a mistake , now all they have to do is explain todays attacks on the red cross depot , the hospital and the journalists .:oops:

b/c every time we put forth our opinions they are mocked and ridiculed instead of respected. thats why.
For an opinion to be respected it is generally a good idea if that opinion shows some level of thought and at least a basic comprehension of simple facts .

It didn't seem to bother Tribesman being mocked and ridiculed as a hamas lover
Why would it bother me ?
As it happens it gives me a good laugh as it is usually the result of either an inabilty to provide a counter arguement or a complete inability to even understand the topic .

Idaho

01-15-2009, 18:53

Come on be fair , they have just said it was a mistake , now all they have to do is explain todays attacks on the red cross depot , the hospital and the journalists .:oops:

For an opinion to be respected it is generally a good idea if that opinion shows some level of thought and at least a basic comprehension of simple facts .

Why would it bother me ?
As it happens it gives me a good laugh as it is usually the result of either an inabilty to provide a counter arguement or a complete inability to even understand the topic .

Careful Tribesman, you are arguing your point too well - have a warning :laugh4:

Incongruous

01-15-2009, 19:20

Slight problem there , Israel never broke the ceasefire as such because it didn't really exist for them . The ceasefire was a unilateral declaration by Hamas so only they could break it , but of course they put conditions in their declaration which means that they didn't actually break it either as each episode of violence was seen as a response to Israel breaking those conditions .

Yes, thus the term "ceasfire", I wonder if it could become official UN terminology when dealing with Hamas and Israel. Clearly the "ceasfire" existed enough for Israel, to then allow (them) their supporters to declare that Hamas had broken a deal which Israel had honourably kept to.
As to Hamas being unable to break the "ceasfire", seems logical to me, such acts of stupidity have often lead to a man in a high position being surgically* removed.

*note, that the Israeli millitary considers surgical to mean dropping a large bomb into a built up urban area.
This should not be surprising since reality to them means building a large wall across Palestinian land, cutting of basic supplies such as water to the Palestinians in an attempt to purify the land.

Banquo's Ghost

01-15-2009, 19:49

Tribesman

01-15-2009, 20:27

It is particularly insulting to Jewish people to have Israel compared to the Nazis given their history.

Even if it is quoting a holocaust survivor making the comparison ?:inquisitive:
But hold on what about those crazy settlers calling their government a bunch of German 30's populists ?
OK I get it , its OK for Jewish people to make the comparison in the same way as Chris Rock can use the N-word .
Then again what about other victims of the nazis ? Could perhaps an aged german poof or a romanian pikey who survived the camps be allowed to make the comparison ?

rory_20_uk

01-15-2009, 20:52

I am afraid that I agree with Tribesman that merely a previous event in history can shield a nation from current comparisons - oh, unless you happen to be the right sort of person - but never forget we're all equal... Link (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5496878.ece)

It's particularly ironic the Israeli state having large tracts of land that they control the sea air and ground access and are preventing all supplies entering. Whilst the shells are falling we must tread on eggshells lest a term might wound their poor collective psyche.

The land isn't a state per se. It is a very large camp, and people are concentrated in it - one of the highest population densities in the world.

They're all of one racial background.

So is it a ghetto? Whoops! Jews have been in one of those (as have several other religions and races, but nevermind!) so that word is probably offensive too. A fair compromise though?

The cause of the extermination camps is still hotly debated by many - not as to their existence, but to who thought of it and why. Similarly, there are complex events leading up to the current situation, but what is taking place is indiscriminate killing of (mostly) civilians.

~:smoking:

Ser Clegane

01-15-2009, 21:02

The land isn't a state per se. It is a very large camp, and people are concentrated in it - one of the highest population densities in the world.

Gaza is a "camp"? So - if we had an independent Palestianian state - would Gaza still be a "concentration camp" under your definition? After all, the conditions you are using to define the situation would not really change, would they?

Some of these comparisons really start to come across as a bit forced now...

HoreTore

01-15-2009, 21:08

Gaza is a "camp"? So - if we had an independent Palestianian state - would Gaza still be a "concentration camp" under your definition? After all, the conditions you are using to define the situation would not really change, would they?

Some of these comparisons really start to come across as a bit forced now...

Yes, Gaza is a camp. A very large refugee camp. Or actually several.

With the creation of a palestinian state it would no longer be a camp of course, because the things Rory mentioned making it a camp would cease to exist, as Israel would no longer control air, sea and ground travel, nor would they cut off supplies and (dare I say it?) the refugee's would be allowed to return to their land in Israel.

Incongruous

01-15-2009, 21:13

Gentlemen,

Let me be very clear.

This forum is not to be used to insult members or cause offense.

It is particularly insulting to Jewish people to have Israel compared to the Nazis given their history.

It also happens to be a sloppy argument which degrades, rather than enhances understanding. There's no need for such comparisons, no matter what is happening.

In most cases, resorting to the Nazis merely invokes Godwin's Law and undermines one's argument. We let it pass.

In this case, it is gratuitously offensive and more to the point, invariably intended to be so.

Provocation and trolling for angry responses, as well as generalised insults intended to upset, are all against the rules of this forum.

Please try and have a civilised discussion on a very complex and tragic situation.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

A sloppy argument? I disagree, I find that it is a powerful comparison which can be used to force people to rethink their position on Israel. The opressed become the opressors.

Gaza is a concentration camp, I see no reason why those of Jewish ethnicity can claim a monopoly on victimisation via concentration camps concieved by a racist and murderous ideology and enacted by a group of ardent fascists.

BG you have often argued that the Paalestinaisn should go for peaceful demonstrations in order to win through. I have given evidence which proves that this is not enough, that even when they were offering to end suicide bombings Israel simply wanyed blood.

Mapam party co-leader Meir Ya'ari noted "how easily" Israel's leaders spoke of how it was "possible and permissible to take women, children and old men and to fill the road with them because such is the imperative of strategy. And this we say . . . who remember who used this means against our people during the [Second World] War . . . I am appalled."

mostly Jewish truth-tellers such as Avi Shlaim, Noam Chomsky, Tanya Reinhart, Neve Gordon, Tom Segev, Uri Avnery, Ilan Pappé and Norman Finkelstein have undermined this and other myths and revealed a state shorn of the humane traditions of Judaism, whose unrelenting militarism is the sum of an expansionist, lawless and racist ideology called Zionism. "It seems," wrote the Israeli historian Pappé on 2 January, "that even the most horrendous crimes, such as the genocide in Gaza, are treated as discrete events, unconnected to anything that happened in the past and not associated with any ideology or system . . . Very much as the apartheid ideology explained the oppressive policies of the South African government, this ideology - in its most consensual and simplistic variety - allowed all the Israeli governments in the past and the present to dehumanise the Palestinians wherever they are and strive to destroy them. The means altered from period to period, from location to location, as did the narrative covering up these atrocities. But there is a clear pattern [of genocide]."

In Gaza, the enforced starvation and denial of humanitarian aid, the piracy of life-giving resources such as fuel and water, the denial of medicines, the systematic destruction of infrastructure and killing and maiming of the civilian population, 50 per cent of whom are children, fall within the international standard of the Genocide Convention. "Is it an irresponsible overstatement," asked Richard Falk, UN special rapporteur for human rights in the occupied Palestinian territories and international law authority at Princeton University, "to associate the treatment of Palestinians with this criminalised Nazi record of collective atrocity? I think not."

Hardly a poorly thought out argument.

Incongruous

01-15-2009, 21:27

Israel, the light of Western Humanism in a dark region...

Israel Threatens to Shoot Unarmed Civilians aboard Mercy Ship
Thursday, 15 January 2009 09:26 Written by Free Gaza Movement
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
www.FreeGaza.org
For more information, please contact:

(Cyprus) Lubna Masarwa, +357 97 625 828
(Cyprus) Mary Hughes, +357 99 081 767
(Gaza) Ewa Jasiewicz, +972 598 700 497

(Mediterranean Sea, 15 January 2009) - The Israeli navy today threatened to kill unarmed civilians aboard a mercy ship on its way to deliver medical supplies and doctors to besieged Gaza.

The Free Gaza Movement ship, SPIRIT OF HUMANITY, left Cyprus Wednesday morning carrying doctors, journalists, human rights workers, and parliamentarians. The ship also carried over a ton of desperately needed medicines donated by the European Campaign to Break the Siege, and intended for overwhelmed hospitals in the Gaza Strip. At the request of the ship's organizers the passenger list and manifest were publicly released, and Cypriot authorities searched the boat prior to its departure in order to certify that it only carried humanitarian items. The organizers also sent an official notification to the Israeli government of their intent to break through the blockade of Gaza.

At roughly 3am UST (1am GMT), in international waters 100 miles off the coast of Gaza, at least five Israeli gunboats surrounded the SPIRIT OF HUMANITY and began recklessly cutting in front of the slow-moving civilian craft. The Israeli warships radioed the SPIRIT, demanding that the ship turn around or they would open fire and "shoot." When asked if the Israeli navy was acknowledging that they intended to commit a war crime by deliberately firing on unarmed civilians, the warships replied that they were prepared to use "any means" to stop the ship.

An earlier attempt by Free Gaza to deliver doctors and medical supplies ended on 30 December when Israeli gunboats deliberately and repeatedly rammed the DIGNITY, almost sinking that ship. Rather than endanger the lives of its passengers, the SPIRIT is now returning to Cyprus.

Israel's reckless and shocking threats against an unarmed ship on a mission of mercy are a violation of both international maritime law and the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, which states that "the high seas should be reserved for peaceful purposes."

CALL the Israeli Government and demand that it immediately STOP attacking the civilian population of Gaza and STOP using violence to prevent human rights and humanitarian assistance to the Palestinian people.

Mark Regev in the Prime Minister's office:
+972 2670 5354 or +972 5 0620 3264

mark.regev@it.pmo.gov.il This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it

Shlomo Dror in the Ministry of Defence:
+972 3697 5339 or +972 50629 8148
mediasar@mod.gov.il This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it

The Israeli Navy Spokesperson:
+ 972 5 781 86248

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - 12th January 2009
www.FreeGaza.org
MERCY SHIP DEPARTS FOR GAZA: “WE ARE COMING IN ON TUESDAY”

For More Information, Please Contact:
(Cyprus/Gaza) Huwaida Arraf, +972 599 130 426 huwaida.arraf@gmail.com
(Gaza) Ewa Jasiewicz, +972 598 700 497 freelance@mailworks.org
(U.S.) Ramzi Kysia, +1 703 994 5422 rrkysia@yahoo.com

(Cyprus, 11 January 2009) - The Free Gaza Movement ship, “SPIRIT OF HUMANITY,” left Larnaca Port at 3:00 pm, Monday, 12 January, on an emergency mission to besieged Gaza. It is expected to arrive in Gaza at approximately 11am (UST) Tuesday morning. Aboard the ship are 36 passengers and crew, representing 17 different nations. They are doctors, journalists, human rights workers, and five European parliamentarians
representing Belgium, Greece, Italy, and Spain (see below for a complete passenger list). The mercy ship also carries desperately needed medical supplies meant for hospitals in the Gaza Strip.

This voyage marks Free Gaza’s second attempt to break through the blockade since Israel began attacking Gaza on 27 December. Between August and December 2008, the Free Gaza Movement successfully challenged the Israeli
blockade five times, landing the first international ships in the port of Gaza since 1967.

The Israeli military violently attacked an earlier attempt by the Free Gaza Movement to send an emergency boat filled with doctors and medical supplies to Gaza. In the early hours of Tuesday, 30 December, the Israeli navy deliberately, repeatedly, and without warning rammed the unarmed ship, the DIGNITY, causing significant structural damage and endangering the lives of its passengers and crew. The DIGNITY found safe harbor in Lebanon, and is currently awaiting repairs.

Shortly before the SPIRIT OF HUMANITY left Cyprus today, the Cypriot authorities informed the Free Gaza Movement that the Israeli government had officially contacted their embassy in Tel Aviv, and warned them that they felt “justified” in using “any means available” to forcibly prevent the mercy ship from arriving in Gaza. At the request of the ship’s organizers, the Cypriot authorities searched the ship prior to its departure to certify that it only carried medical supplies.

Fouad Ahidar, a member of the Belgian Parliament sailing to Gaza aboard the SPIRIT OF HUMANITY, responded to concerns that Israel may attack the unarmed ship by saying, "I have five children that are very worried about
me, but I told them: ‘you can sit on your couch and watch these atrocities on the television, or you can choose to take action to make them stop.’"

Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip have injured thousands of civilians and killed over 900 people, including hundreds of women and children. This ongoing Israeli massacre severely and massively violates international humanitarian law defined by the Geneva Conventions, especially the
obligations of an Occupying Power and the requirements of the laws of war.

The United Nations has failed to protect the Palestinian civilian population from Israel's massive violations of international humanitarian law. Israel has closed off Gaza from the international community and demanded that all foreigners leave. But Huwaida Arraf, an organizer with
the Free Gaza Movement, stated that, “We cannot just sit by and wait for Israel to decide to stop the killing and open the borders for relief workers to pick up the pieces. We are coming in. There is an urgent need for this mission as Palestinian civilians in Gaza are being terrorized and
slaughtered by Israel, and access to humanitarian relief denied to them. When states and the international bodies responsible for taking action to stop such atrocities chose to be impotent, then we--the citizens of the world--must act. Our common humanity demands nothing less.”

Israel has been notified that we are coming. A copy of the notification to the Israeli Authorities is attached. The Free Gaza Movement will hold Israel responsible for any harm that may be done to the ship or its passengers.
###

WHAT YOU CAN DO

Take Action! CALL the Israeli Government and let them know that the SPIRIT OF HUMANITY is coming to Gaza. DEMAND that Israel immediately STOP slaughtering civilians in Gaza and STOP using violence to prevent human
rights and humanitarian assistance to the Palestinian people.

CALL
Mark Regev in the Prime Minister's office:
+972 2670 5354 or +972 5 0620 3264
mark.regev@it.pmo.gov.il

Shlomo Dror in the Ministry of Defence:
+972 3697 5339 or +972 50629 8148
mediasar@mod.gov.il

Major Liebovitz from the Israeli Navy:
+ 972 5 781 86248
###

Official Notification of Intent to Enter
January 11, 2009

To: The Israeli Ministry of Defense, Fax: 972-3-697-6717
To: The Israeli Navy
To: The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Fax 972-2-5303367

From: The Free Gaza Movement

This letter serves as a formal notification to you as the Occupying Power and belligerent force in the Gaza Strip that on Monday, January 12 we are navigating the motor vessel, Spirit of Humanity, from the Port of Larnaca
to the port of Gaza City. Our vessel will be flying the Greek flag, and, as such, falls under the jurisdiction of Greece.

We will be sailing from Cypriot waters into international waters, then directly into the territorial waters of the Gaza Strip without entering or nearing Israeli territorial waters. We expect to arrive at the Gaza Port on Tuesday, January 13, 2009.

We will be carrying urgently needed medical supplies in sealed boxes, cleared by customs at the Larnaca International Airport and the Port of Larnaca. There will be a total of 30 passengers and crew on board, among
them members of various European Parliaments and several physicians. Our boat and cargo will also have received security clearance from the Port Authorities in Cyprus before we depart.

As it will be confirmed that neither we, the cargo, any of the boat's contents, nor the boat itself constitute any threat to the security of Israel or its armed forces, we do not expect any interference with our voyage by Israel's authorities.

On Tuesday, December 30, an Israeli Navy vessel violently, and without warning, attacked our motor vessel Dignity, disabling the vessel and endangering the lives of the 16 civilians on board. This notice serves as clear notification to you of our approach. Any attack on the motor vessel Spirit of Humanity, will be premeditated and any harm inflicted on the 30 civilians on board will be considered the result of a deliberate attack on unarmed civilians.

The Steering Committee of the Free Gaza Movement
###

PASSENGERS & CREW OF THE SPIRIT OF HUMANITY
Abufalah, Othman Mohammad, Journalist with Al Jazeera Television (Jordan)
Ahidar, Fouad, Member of Parliament (Belgium)
Arraf, Huwaida, human rights lawyer and Delegation Leader (Palestine/USA)
Bitsanis, Konstantinos, human rights worker and crew (Greece)
Bolos, Nikolas, human rights worker and crew (Greece)
Bowden, David, Journalist with SKY TV (UK)
Caruso, Francesco, former Member of Parliament (Italy)
Dabbagh, Ali, Doctor (UK)
Dritsas, Theodoros, Member of Parliament (Greece)
Gentile, Alessandro, Journalist with CNN (Italy)
Gezelius, Mats, Journalist (Sweden/Finland)
Giannopolis, Nikolaos, human rights worker (Greece)
Jacquier, Gilles, Journalist with France Channel 2 (France)
Kampani, Chalent, Orthopedic Surgeon (Greece)
Kanellakis, Yiannis, Journalist with Greek Mega TV (Greece)
Karatzias, Petros, Journalist with the Associated Press (Cyprus)
Kawkuby, Jasir, Doctor and Pediatric Intensive Care specialist (Germany)
Klontzas, George, Ship's Captain (Greece)
Muncie, Andrew, human rights worker and crew (Scotland)
McLuckie, Garwen, Journalist with SKY TV (UK)
Mourad, Maimouni (Belgium)
Muir, Alistair, Journalist with the BBC (UK)
Nuet, Joan Josef, Member of Parliament (Spain)
Papachristopoulos, Athanasios, Surgeon (Greece)
Pissias, Vangelis, Univeristy Professor (Greece)
Pratt, David, Journalist with the Sunday Herald (UK)
Prieto, Monica, Journalist with El Mundo (Spain)
Rahali, Hassan, Journalist (Belgium)
Robbins, Sonia, Surgeon (UK)
Sakorafa, Sofia, Member of Parliament (Greece)
Shakir, Thair, Journalist with Al Jazeera television (Iraq)
Synodynou, Melina, Journalist with Ethnos (Greece)
Tsatsis, Angelos, Journalist with MEGA TV (Greece)
Vinci, Alessio, Journalist with CNN (Italy)
Yvon, Xavier, Journalist with RTL Radio (France)
Zdoukos, Theodoros, Doctor (Greece)

Put simply, those in power in Israel are terrorists of the worst kind.

Hooahguy

01-15-2009, 21:43

Gaza is a concentration camp, I see no reason why those of Jewish ethnicity can claim a monopoly on victimisation via concentration camps concieved by a racist and murderous ideology and enacted by a group of ardent fascists.

um, not its not.

Incongruous

01-15-2009, 21:46

um, not its not.

:laugh4:

Is that it, um, no its not?

C'mon I know you have the intelligence to give me a decent argument hooaguy.

Strike For The South

01-15-2009, 21:51

Sheet of Glass.

Tribesman

01-15-2009, 22:10

Just to update an earlier story posted by someone .
That Dutch politician that was banned from the holocaust memorial because of shouts of "gas the jews" at a protest has not been banned and the memorial commitee has restated that he is invited but he will not be attending because some muppets have issued threats of violence at the memorial because they think he had something to do with a couple of dickheads shouting at the back of the crowd during the protest .
Then again it must be considered that the story is from the main Dutch media outlets and not from an independant outlet where dutchies who like to shout gogogoIsrael like to hang out .~;)

OK , sorry its reviving something from the locked topic but I am sure the poster concerned would not object to the correction just in case people were slightly misled because he had misadvertantly got the story a little bit wrong .

Sheet of Glass.

Thats a pane

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-15-2009, 22:13

I think EMM is suggesting that this topic is spinning in circles and not making forward progress of any kind.

Precisely. There are some issues where one could trawl through information, organize papers, and so forth. There are some issues where this ceases to be worth the effort, either because of the topic, the course of the debate, or the debaters. In this case, I believe that it is no longer worth the effort, so I shall make my exit.

Crazed Rabbit

01-15-2009, 22:51

The sympathy and support shown by certain factions in the west for intolerant people who launch attacks aimed at civilians, teach their children to hate from birth, demonize others as non-human "apes and pigs", kill themselves while trying to kill innocent people at coffee shops and weddings, strive for the complete annihilation of a people, hide their fighters in civilian buildings, struggle to impose a oppressive theocracy and take away the rights of women and homosexuals.

That's not exaggeration.

Hamas could secure a peaceful, non-blockaded Gaza strip for themselves very simply. They just stop all rocket and suicide attacks into Israel. And Israel will eventually, whether through recognition of that or international pressure, lower blockades and assorted controls.

But that doesn't happen - why?

Because Hamas doesn't simply desire peace - they want to destroy Israel. Their actions are not waged to survive, but to destroy, and if they had the power Israel would no longer exist.

So perhaps all those criticizing Israel for this should look at some of what Hamas teaches the children in Gaza strip. I wonder if the British supporters were so supporter of the IRA back in the 1980s.

CR

Watchman

01-15-2009, 23:02

And we know what eventually happened with the IRA, don't we ?

Also, aren't you kind of recycling points long since brought forth and dismissed there Rabbit...?

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-15-2009, 23:07

Also, aren't you kind of recycling points long since brought forth and dismissed there Rabbit...?

Dismissed by yourself and others, yes, but not necessarily incorrect.

Watchman

01-15-2009, 23:09

Uh-huh. Then I would like to see CR expound on the topic of why Hamas so detests Israel - and while he's at it he might also want to give his take on the motivations of Israel to have supported Hamas back in the day...

Papewaio

01-15-2009, 23:17

:sorry2:

Just for a breather :music: this thread :tredmil: :duel: before it :fortune::titanic: is going to go into hiatus. :holiday2:

Possibly until Monday (AEST)... maybe opened earlier.

So enjoy each others company. ~:cheers:~:grouphug: