Legion vs. Phalanx online tournament

[Βελισάριος]

Yes, the Romans should be able to have allies. Maybe the Koinen should also be able to have styled armies? In which I mean a Syracusian army, Massilian army or a Bosporan army? A Spartan and Rhodian army can be represented yet the units from above armier are not on the KH faction site.

Good suggestion... very good, actually. We can implement that in the next tournament.


Also 2 things on the updated rules.

1) A mistake, after saying which are elite units it says Spartiatai/Ekdromoi, it should be: Spartiatai/Epileptikoi. :sweatdrop:

You're right on that one... I was stoned when I wrote the rules last night.


2) It says 1 hastati, it should be: 2 Hastati, 2 Principes, 1 Triarii. It should also be 2 Roman missle units(in which I mean velites, leves, rorarii, accensi) Also 1 Equites and 1 Roman bodyguard(or 2 optionally to represent the Tribune). The rest should be allied units in my view.:2thumbsup:

2 Hastati, 2 Principes, 1 Triarii and 2 Roman missile units... that's what I wanted to write.
Again... stoned.

Thanksverymuch.

And munky, the Prima Cohors will fall under regular Cohors Reformatae (or whatever the plural is like) and you can have only one per army (I should add that as well).

And what do you mean I'm not allowing General's bodyguard units?
BG's don't count as elites, that's all it says there. Also, we're not forcing you to use them as some people don't feel like spending their money on 20-men units (myself included, unless I get really stingy), so, in that sense, you get an extra cavalry unit if you want. It says in the rules.

Also, it is, was and will be our main concern to aim for the highest degree of historical accuracy in this thread.
But you also have to keep in mind, the point of the whole thing was to pit Legion vs. Phalanx.
If Roman armies are half-allied then that purpose is defeated entirely.

For the next tournament there'll be a much wider range of units to be selected, but that takes time, patience and careful selection.
If you would care to offer your suggestions on the topic, I'd be more than happy to take them into consideration and would be much obliged.

In the meantime, remarks such as "the jury doesn't really care for historic realism" is unnecessary and rather ridiculous coming from someone who fields the type of armies that you do, ASM. If you want historical realism, play historically accurate.

Look at my battle with Maion, except for the 4 Triarii (momentary slip, sorry), my army fit the requisites of the rules just nicely.
Yeah, I lost... but that was a tactical error, not because of a chink in the army's armour... or, rather, its formation.

Once more, I'm open to your suggestions and I thank you for the help so far.
I'll go make the necessary edits.

[antisocialmunky]

You do realise that the armies I have been fielding in test battles are fairly realistic and that the Roman Legion was not just romans but Romans + Allies right? 4 Hastati, 4 Principles, 2 Triari, 2 Samnites, 2 Lucianians, 2 Pedites, 2 Equites Extraordinari, 2 Polybian Equites. The only armies I did cheese on were the ones that were allowed under the first round rules just like Tolg's 50/50 Triarii, Pedites army(not to pick on him). Any why shouldn't we have? The Greeks weren't using their low level infantry, so why should the Romans? Atleast its more balanced this time around.

But the issue is that you or the jury or whoever comes up with these rules aren't allowing people to play historically accurate because the Romans don't have their allies. That is historically inaccurate. The phalanx has its supporting troops but the Legion doesn't have ANY in Marian. Just because the Diadochi's supporting troops are 'native' and the Roman support is 'allied.'

How is that fair or historically accurate? Name one campaign where the Italic Allies weren't present for before Marian and name one campaign after Marian where the legions went in without support and didn't get their salads tossed.

If this was just a legion ves phalanx tournement, well we'd have only legion vs phalanx armies. No cavalry, no support. Just a bunch of legionaires ramming into a bunch of phalanxes. But no, this is a tournement that claims to see if the armies of the Diadochi could defeat the armies of Rome.

As for the bodyguard units, I was under the impression that you would put them in the rules because they aren't. That's why I said "or just forgot."

But whatever, its your tournement. Its just frustrating how you're excluding realistic roman armies. Bottom line: Post-Marian is going to blow because Rome loses any sort of initiative and heavy cavalry will be taking out 30-40 legionaires each charge and only take about 4 casualites each time.

I've said my peace. I'm tired of arguing the same crap over and over again.

[alexanderthegreater]

I like the rules.

But i have one concern:

with 40 000 mnai the romans can have like a full stack of principes and the hellenes an army of all elite. Shoudln't we turn that down a bit to allow more varied armies?
(Didn't both romans and hellenes historically use a lot of lower quality infantry - leves, auxilia, psiloi, pantodapoi)

Also, the match between me and hungeneral was delayed due to connection issues and is scheduled to happen on friday.

[Gabeed]

Man, I'm editing this post a lot. I just want to ask, what exactly is "heavy cavalry?" Would that be just hetairoi for Hellenic, or does that include xystophoroi, my Ptolemaic Hippeon Klerouchon Agema, etc? What about Lonchophoroi?

I have another question. Does the ratio for levy, standard, elite correspond with number of units, or number of men?

[Βελισάριος]

That's any cavalry that has "heavy" in its description. So Xystophoroi, Thessalikoi are some examples.
Lonchophoroi, Prodromoi, Hippeis are medium. Illyrioi Hippeis are light, etc.

[tsidneku]

Bump? Any news, Burebista?

[Βελισάριος]

Yeah, my internet's dead and I'm typing from work.

Hopefully, I'll be back on this weekend. I have the match-ups on my lap-top, if I still don't get my internet back by tonight, I'll put them on a flash card and type them from here.

I'd like to see the look on my boss' face :p

[antisocialmunky]

Chances are they've already been recording your visits here.

[Βελισάριος]

I do tend to log in quite often from the place. Had my ears pulled a few times, but meh... I usually only log on to read stuff and then go back to work.

Anyway. I apologise for the delay. Here are the match-ups for Round II:
(we're a roman short so one of the Romans gets two shots, but the second match will not count for the Roman victory points should it end in a Roman victory, it will count for Greek victory points in the reverse situation, however)

1. Antisocialmunky vs. Gabeed at EB Bruttium Forest Lakes
2. Alexanderthegreater vs. Phalanx300 at EB Peloponessos
3. Wodewick vs. Tsidneku at EB Path to Syracouse
4. Belisarios vs. HunGeneral at EB Liguria
5. Tolg vs. Silence Hunter at EB Gulf of Corinth
6. Fluvius Camillus vs. Maion Maroneios at EB Mount Vesuvius
7. IrishHitman vs. Tolg at EB Ionia (Tolg, as stated above, we pulled your number twice, but this round won't count for your total victory points)

Round I match-ups whose results have still not come in:
HunGeneral vs. Alexanderthegreater
Silence Hunter vs. Wodewick

Hurry up, guys!

Also, Important annoucement:

I am looking for someone with respectable, solid knowledge on ancient history (particularly, Greco-Roman history) to take my place in the jury and also be an overseer of affairs in the tournament, i.e. make sure match-ups are posted on time, results are in when needed, etc.

Preferably, he'd have to be a lifeless sod with a lot of time on his hands, but I can settle for only the latter quality as well.

I am not abandoning the tournament, I'm just taking a break from EB fora, AARs, tournaments and the like, have other priorities at the moment that require my urgent attention.
I will, however, retain the right to veto any jury decision and I want all PMs and discussions of the jury to be forwarded to me.

I apologise to my fellow jury members for not letting them know in advance, this was a decision I took whilst internet-less.

[IrishHitman]

7. IrishHitman vs. Tolg at EB Ionia (Tolg, as stated above, we pulled your number twice, but this round won't count for your total victory points)


Two questions:
Why won't our battle count?
Has a decision been made with regard to my requests/inquiries?

[Βελισάριος]

If you win, it counts. If Tolg wins, it doesn't.
The consensus amongst the jury members was that if there are more players on one team than the other, one of the jury members will step in to give whoever's left out a chance to fight. But since most jury members were already in, I just randomly chose a number from the Roman team.

These are individual victory points we're talking about, I suppose I should've emphasised that point. Tolg's official Round II battle is agaisnt Silence Hunter. If he wins there he has 2 victory points and will be among the candidates for the final battle which will decide the winning side of the tournament.

As for your requests/inquiries the new rules have been posted on the mainpage.
The "penetration" exploit has been banned, for example, also, cavalry limit is now 4, as the more important of the changes.

[IrishHitman]

If you win, it counts. If Tolg wins, it doesn't.
The consensus amongst the jury members was that if there are more players on one team than the other, one of the jury members will step in to give whoever's left out a chance to fight. But since most jury members were already in, I just randomly chose a number from the Roman team.

These are individual victory points we're talking about, I suppose I should've emphasised that point. Tolg's official Round II battle is agaisnt Silence Hunter. If he wins there he has 2 victory points and will be among the candidates for the final battle which will decide the winning side of the tournament.

As for your requests/inquiries the new rules have been posted on the mainpage.
The "penetration" exploit has been banned, for example, also, cavalry limit is now 4, as the more important of the changes.

Ah, didn't notice as I was skipping straight to the last page.

[antisocialmunky]

There are alot more restrictions as well, you should go check it out before you play. I want you to lose but not because you were silly :-p

[Tolg]

Also, Important annoucement:

I am looking for someone with respectable, solid knowledge on ancient history (particularly, Greco-Roman history) to take my place in the jury and also be an overseer of affairs in the tournament, i.e. make sure match-ups are posted on time, results are in when needed, etc.

Preferably, he'd have to be a lifeless sod with a lot of time on his hands, but I can settle for only the latter quality as well.

I am not abandoning the tournament, I'm just taking a break from EB fora, AARs, tournaments and the like, have other priorities at the moment that require my urgent attention.
I will, however, retain the right to veto any jury decision and I want all PMs and discussions of the jury to be forwarded to me.

I could do the extra work, though this would still leave us one jury member short....




If you win, it counts. If Tolg wins, it doesn't.
The consensus amongst the jury members was that if there are more players on one team than the other, one of the jury members will step in to give whoever's left out a chance to fight. But since most jury members were already in, I just randomly chose a number from the Roman team.

These are individual victory points we're talking about, I suppose I should've emphasised that point. Tolg's official Round II battle is agaisnt Silence Hunter. If he wins there he has 2 victory points and will be among the candidates for the final battle which will decide the winning side of the tournament.

As for your requests/inquiries the new rules have been posted on the mainpage.
The "penetration" exploit has been banned, for example, also, cavalry limit is now 4, as the more important of the changes.

Great, I've been hoping for a 1v1 against Irish. Though it's a bit sad that it won't count.

Also I will have to familiarize myself with the new rules. It'd be kind of embarrassing for jury member to be disqualified for using the wrong units...

[IrishHitman]

Great, I've been hoping for a 1v1 against Irish. Though it's a bit sad that it won't count.

Also I will have to familiarize myself with the new rules. It'd be kind of embarrassing for jury member to be disqualified for using the wrong units...
I'm looking forward to it as well, though I'm disappointed that I can't field Alexander's full army as he crossed the Hellespont due to lack of cash...

[Phalanx300]

Yeah thats too bad, you can scale it a bit down though, maybe that will work:sweatdrop:?

[HunGeneral]

This is quite sad news - Belisarios did a lot to get this project going and keep it going.

Good luck to the battlers and about that Battle between me and Alexanderthegreater - will get it done soon.

[Potocello]

Hi guys, as you probably have noticed i have not been active in this tournament for quite some time now. The reason for this is that i ran into a whole bunch of work with school and such and i couldn't find time for this. Real life sucks...

Anyway, it doesn't look like i'll have time anyway for this anymore, but if anyone would like to do some training matches on the weekend, i could play with you.

Regards,
Potocello

[Βελισάριος]

Well, Poto, I hope you solve all your issues. It'd be nice to have you on for the next one after this.

Oh, and Hun... I'm not dead, I'm just taking a vacation, and have a bad internet connection it seems.
I'm PM'ing you guys with proposals for my replacement.

And I'm PM'ing the participants to notify them that Round II has started... apparently, nothing's going on.

[tsidneku]

any news on matches played? :inquisitive:

Wodewick and I are playing our match tomorrow if everything goes to plan.

[Maion Maroneios]

Hey guys, since RL is forcing me to cut down almost any non-RL activities, I decided to quit the Tournament. I'm sorry for that, but unofrtunately I have to. I may decide to participate in the future, but even now with Easter holidays in the very near horizon, I very much doubt I'm going to do anything but eat, sleep and study. Especially the first two.

Anyway, good luck with the rest to everybody.

Maion

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

Hi guys How can I join this (as roman)?
Someone had told me that starting a new tournament in April...

[Macilrille]

Any summary of the games? Standing?

I suggest you start recruiting for the next round. The tournament is definately a good thing.

ACS, I think you have just joined the army, they should contact you (probably PM), soon.

[tsidneku]

Silent Hunter and I were chatting. I think it may be better idea to schedule a time slot on a weekend to run the tournament instead. I think most players are either in Europe or North America, there are about 9 hours worth of time zones to cover which isn't that bad.

Anyhow, looks like Wodewick and I had a scheduling problem. :) Match is on hiatus.

[antisocialmunky]

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=dd0c1ec99eba920d312dbd5f2bdc5062e04e75f6e8ebb871

My and Gabeed's game. Tried to hide stuff in the woods and hit him in the back. Would have worked out better if I drew him in more but I didn't want to sit infront of the red line. This map was really small. Neither of us were sure what was really going on but I won after a rough start.

Army was:

2 Triarii
4 Principles
4 Hastati
2 Pedites
4 Samnites
2 Extraordinari
2 Equites

Edit:
... I think I accidentally used Polybian Equites but I don't think that should have changed anything since Camillian Equites are better by 2 defense. Not really sure what to do about this.

Also, Gabeed found one accidental charge through on the left side. One of my Extraordinari ran too far to the left and hit a few Samnites that got hung up on the Illyrians while chasing the enemy general. Then after that, all our cavalry merged into this massive ball that caught those guys in again. Neither of us noticed it during the game because of all the trees. It probably wouldn't have mattered too much. At another point, 2 of Gabeed's phalanxes merged somewhere in the center but it didn't matter by then and hardly intentional. Trees everywhere... so many trees...

Gabeed said he didn't really have a problem with these issues so I guess we'll have to wait til a ruling. I'm guessing he'll probably post his opinions on this later.

[Gabeed]

. . . .*goes to reinstall BI so he can do single player again*

I guess this tourney has faded away, eh?

[antisocialmunky]

I guess the Romans win then:).

[HunGeneral]

Well It's not really faded away yet. It jsut happens that mos Jury members, orgnisers are short on time. I think it is rather "In the backroom for now". It might get active again some time later.

[Phalanx300]

Its too bad, I really like this tournament, though I played more non tourney games then tourney games thanks to this tourney :clown:.

I tried playing a round 2 game with Alexanderthegreaterer yet he didn't have hamachi so I deinstalled hamachi in order to play using gamespy yet gamespy refuses to let s play a game. :whip:!

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

thanks to my poor knowledge of English, I have doubts about the choice of regular units.:tongue:
According to the rules would fit this?

Polybian:

2 hastati
3 principes
1 triarii (legionary spearmen)
2 hastati samnitici (samnite spearmen)
1 pedites extraordinarii (italic allies)
4 accensi (legionary slingers)
2 luguae (celtic levy spearmen)


Ptolemaioi:

4 hellenic medium phalanx
2 throkitai (hellenic heavy spearmen)
2 toxotai (hellenic archers)
2 cretan archers (mercenary heavy archers)
2 galatian heavy swordsmen
2 hellenic medium cavalry
1 hetairoi (companion cavalry)

Is it correct?

[Fluvius Camillus]

Hey guys, since RL is forcing me to cut down almost any non-RL activities, I decided to quit the Tournament. I'm sorry for that, but unofrtunately I have to. I may decide to participate in the future, but even now with Easter holidays in the very near horizon, I very much doubt I'm going to do anything but eat, sleep and study. Especially the first two.

Anyway, good luck with the rest to everybody.

Maion

Who do I have to fight now? The Tournament EB rooms is really lonely... Has the room changed or something?

[antisocialmunky]

I think its pretty much dead :-\ You're better off just asking for challenges here.

[Fluvius Camillus]

I think its pretty much dead :-\ You're better off just asking for challenges here.

Ow, sad to hear...

WHO DARES TO CHALLENGE!?!

I will be waiting....:skull:

~Fluvius

[antisocialmunky]

Well I'm lurking around on it right now but I don't see you. I guess I win. :)

[Fluvius Camillus]

Well I'm lurking around on it right now but I don't see you. I guess I win. :)

Darn... I was caugth off guard while watching movies....:wall:

REVENGE!

[Phalanx300]

So this is dead? :shame:

Maybe we should start a new tourney with all factions? :egypt:

[antisocialmunky]

Sure if you want. We just need to expand the restrictions to the other factions so we can have some semblence of realism. Also, real life doesn't lend itself to a tournement bracket so I think that it should just be a week of online games where people post replays of battles they fought and at the end of the week, we pick the winningest faction as winner.

[Phalanx300]

Thats a good idea there, tournement brackets indeed wont work. Still to bad this tourney died :shame:.