Syrakousai - A case for a new faction

[Hax]

In the fine tradition of Mithridates VI Eupator and Oudysseos ;D, rather than add to the 60 pages of the New Factions guessing thread, I'd like to present a case for Syrakousai, with a proposed starting position of Syrakousai and perhaps Messana, who had been under control of Syrakousai for some years, under faction leader Hieron II.


Syrakousai

http://www.livius.org/a/1/maps/sicily_map.gif


A short history (I hope):

Syrakousai was founded by Doric settlers from Korinthos and Tenea in either 735 or 734 BCE. Remarkebly enough, Syrakousai can trace its origins back to Tenedos of Troezen, after which Tenea was named. According to the legend, the founder of Syrakousai was a man named Archias, who went into self-imposed exile after a terrible plague that had tormented the city of Korinthos.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dc/Ancient_colonies.PNG
Syrakousai, next to other colonies

Quickly, Syrakousai grew into a great Polis. It became one of the most important Greek cities west of Hellas self, next to cities as Taras, Kroton and Massalia. The comparison with Massalia is perhaps somewhat unfounded, as there had been a great foreign population in Massalia, mostly Celtic, and Syrakousai had managed to stay Hellenic throughout the ages. The first true display of power came when Dionysios the First named himself strategos autokrator.

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/Coins/19479q00.jpg
Coin of Dionysios I

Dionysios ascended the throne (though a slightly unfounded term) in the year of 405 BCE. The years before his accension had been marked primarily by continued Carthaginian expansion on the island of Sikilia. The Carthaginian general Hannibal (not to be confused with Hannibal, the scourge of Rome :2thumbsup:) had conquered numerous cities on the island of Sicily. Some very important cities, including Akragas or Agrigentum, Himera and Selinus had fallen, and now a Carthaginian commander by the name Himilco besieged Gela (which was an important ally of Syrakousai). At that point, Dionysios marched towards the west, only to be defeated and forced to retreat to Syrakousai. Now only Syrakousai and its surrounding cities as well as the most northeastern tip of Sicily were still free from Carthaginian rule. The Greeks were miraculeously saved from conquest when a great plague struck and ravaged the Carthaginian army. Now both parties agreed to a ceasefire. Carthage retreated from the east of Sicily and contended with the previously independent cities on the west of Sicily, while Dionysios held onto Syrakousai.

The people of Syrakousai, however, despised Dionysios for what they saw as surrender. As early as 404 BCE they revolted en masse. Dionysos struck back hard; he liberated slaves, redistributed the lands, and helping the poor of the city. Fully aware that to win the hearts of the citizens, he had to attack Carthage once again, and he started to make preparations for his attack. Through ruthless diplomacy and hard-pressing "persuasion" he managed to gain control of Messana and some of the Greek cities on the east of the island. He also sent a shipment of grain to the Romans for some goodwill on Great Greece (Megále Hellas) herself.

In 398 he decided to attack. He immediately pushed far to the west and conquered the island of Motya. This victory swayed all of Syrakousai to his side and is renowned as one of the first sieges that relied on artillery. The next year Himilco returned to Sicily with a new army. Dionysios once again was forced to retreat to Syrakousai, which was then besieged in the year of 398 BCE. Once again the Greeks were saved when a second plague came over the Carthaginian forces, and once again the Carthaginians accepted to a ceasefire; this time Carthage would restore independence to the Greek cities in the west of Sicily. With a filled pouch and some cunning diplomacy he managed to convince the Greeks that he liberated them and he could soon add them to his empire.

At this point Dionysios started to grow arrogant. He captured Rhegion which allowed him full control of the strait of Messana and he attacked Carthage yet again in the year of 383. This war only left him with a large indemnity and the loss of his allies in the west. However, at the end of this war he did control the city of Croton, which had previously been a Carthaginian ally.

Dionysios finally died in the year of 367 after he attacked Carthage one last time.

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Dionysios II, his son and successor then came to power. It soon became clear that Dionysios II was more interested in philosophy and the arts than his father had been, and he also realised that fortunes could as easily go as they came. Dion, Dionysios' uncle and advisor, had invited the Athenian philosopher to his court to advise Dionysios. However, the courtiers feared Dion's influence and managed to exile him.

Over the next years Plato came and went and eventually Dion himself returned, at the head of an army. He was greeted in Syracuse as a liberator, though he could not enjoy his victory for long. He was assassinated soon thereafter by agents of Kallipos, a philosopher. Subsequently Nylaeos and Hipparinos were named tyrants. In 347 Dionysios returned.

Embittered, he turned into a cruel despot, and the Syracusan citizens employed the help of a man named Hicetas, who liberated the city and exiled Dionysios.

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With the problems in Sicily contuining, a man called Timoleon came to Sicily at the head of an army. Timophanes, Timoleon's brother had risen to power in Korinthos, and as Sicily had been plagued by constant civil strife and revoltuions, Timoleon had been sent from Korinthos to pacify Sicily.

When Timoleon landed in Sicily, he then attacked the same man which had invited him, Hicetas. He then opened negotiations with Dionysios II and offered his assistance in the war against Carthage. Dionysios agreed and allowed Timoleon's forces to enter his capital at Ortygia. Timoleon beat off the Carthaginian invaders, and Dionysios, who found himself outsmarted by the Korinthian, agreed to settle into Korinthos. Thus did the Dionysian influence ended in Sicily.

Timoleon then started with the process of pacifying Sicily. A total of 60,000 of Greeks accepted his offer to settle in Sicily (in a time that Megás Alexandros had conquered all of Greece), accepted grants of land and repopulated the cities. Timoleon also continued the war against Carthage, who kept encroaching on Greek Sicilian holdings. Timoleon managed to defeat the Carthaginian foe and the river Halycus in the middle in Sicily was chosen to be the border between Carthaginians and Greeks.

Timoleon then celebrated his victories by minting coins which showed ΔΙΟΣ ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΙΟΣ.

http://www.livius.org/a/1/greeks/zeus_eleutherius_timoleon.jpg

Sicily prospered, and Timoleon retreated from public life. Fear for Alexandros kept people together that mistrusted eachother in the past. However, as the news of Alexandros' death reached Sicily, citizens that had previously worked together started to mistrust one another once again. And as such, civil war erupted once again. Timoleon himself had died many years before, in 337 BCE, and the man who took advantage of the problems was known as Agathokles.

http://www.livius.org/a/1/greeks/agathocles_coin.JPG
Agathokles

Agathokles soon turned out to be one of the most ruthless tyrants Syrakousai had ever known. He abolished the oligarchy and made himself sole ruler of this city.He (as many tyrants before him) declared war on Carthage.In 311, Syracuse herself was besieged again. As there was no divine plague to rain disaster upon the Carthaginians, Agathokles did the most daring thing, something no other tyrant had done before. He boarded a fleet and sailed for Africa. There he laid siege to Carthago herself.

The Carthaginian commander immediately retreated from Sicily, and after several victories, Agathokles was finally defeated in 307 BCE and he was forced to retreat to Sicily. He did manage to gain a ceasefire with the Carthaginians in 306, which left him in control of the eastern part of the island. As several of Alexandros' successors in the east had named themselves King (Antigonos Monophtalmos, Demetrios Poliorketos and Ptolemaios I Soter) Agathokles did the same, in the year 304.

In his last days, Agathokles abolished the autocracy and reinstated the democracy. Agathokles finally died in 289.

With his death ended the last man that led Syrakousai to military greatness.

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Timeline

8th century

734 - Founding of the Syrakousai

7th century

663 - Founding of Akragas
643 - Founding of Casmanae

6th century

598 - Founding of Camarina
c. 560 - Founding of Morgantina

5th century

491 - Gelon comes to power
478 - Death of Gelon, succession by Hieron I
467 - Death of Hieron, succession by Thrasbylos
465 - Thrasbylos overthrown, democracy instituted
410 - First Carthaginian War [410 - 405]
405 - Dionysios I overthrows the democracy, declares himself tyrant. End of the First Carthaginian War
404 - Syracusan revolt, repercussions by Dionysios


4th century

398 - Second Carthaginian War [398 - 392]
392 - End of Second Carthaginian War
387 - Conquest of Rhegion
383 - Third Carthaginian War [383 - 378]
378 - End of Third Carthaginian War
367 - Death of Dionysios I, Dionysios II comes to power
366 - End of the Second Carthaginian War
361 - Plato visits Syracuse
356 - Dionysios exiled, Dion returns, death of Dion, Nylaeos and Hipparinus tyrants.
354 - Revolts all across Sicily
347 - Return of Dionysios II
345 - Dionysios II overthrown, Hicetas comes to power. Hicetas defeated by Timoleon. On and off wars with Carthage [continued to 339]
339 - Peace treaty signed between Syracuse and Carthage
337 - Death of Timoleon. Oligarchy instituted
323 - Death of Megás Alexandros. Civil strife
316 - Agathokles comes to power
311 - Siege of Syracuse by the Carthaginians
310 - Invasion of Africa by Agathokles, Carthaginian retreat from Syracuse
307 - Agathokles defeated; retreated to Syracuse
304 - Agathokles names himself Basileos, or King

3rd century

288 - Death of Agathokles; democracy reinstituted
278 - Pyrrhos arrives in Sicily
276 - Pyrrhos retreats to Epiros, leaving Sicily sandwiched between Roma and Carthage. Hieron tyrant
264 - Appius Claudius Caudex conquers Messana; start of the first Punic War
261 - Fall of Akragas to the Romans
241 - Last Carthaginian presence removed from Sicily by the Romans, Sicily is now a Roman province
218 - Start of the Second Punic War
215 - Death of Hieron, Hieronymos seizes power and sides with Carthage.
212 - Surrender of Syracuse to the Romans.

Okay, history was not so short as previously thought V_V

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Working this into the EB II engine:

As we have seen, Syrakousai played a very special role in the affairs of Sicily, Italy and even North Africa during the fifth and fourth centuries BCE. We have seen that they swung constantly between oligarchy, autocracy and democracy.

I do not know to what an extent traits can have influence on the engine itself (if any), though I think that allowing certain traits, not unlike the ethnicity traits for Syrakousian family members. This would (naturally be) Oligarchist, Autocrator and Democrat.

Furthermore, from what I have found, I have several ideas concerning ethnicities available to the Syrakousioi:

Korinthian, Helleno-Sikilian, Spartan, Tarentine, and Epirote. Epiros had a special relation with Syracuse, especially after Pyrrhos had been tyrant of Syracuse.

Sikilian cities: One of the greatest arguments against the inclusion of Syrakousai was the lack of settlements on Sicily. In this case I think that Permanent Stone Forst could be made to represent minor cities. In this case, I would advocate the inclusion of Akragas or Agrigenton and Himera. This would make the fight for Sicily more accurate and rewarding (Sicily was very important location for trade)

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Faction symbols:

I have found some suitable coins that could be used as faction symbols. I have chosen especially those past 350 BCE.

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/Coins/21622q00.jpg
Coin of Agathokles, with Nike holding a wreath in her hand

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/Coins2/28936q00.jpg
Coin of Hieron II, with a male charioteer. Possibly Hippolytus (?)

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/Coins/24436q00.jpg
Hieronymos, with a winged thunderbolt. This was, of course, a symbol of Zeus

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Victory conditions:

According to Keravnos:


In the interest of historical accuracy, Agathokles, who gave a daughter to Pyrrhos as a bride, did manage to invade Carthage. Syrakousai in their greatest extent controlled all of Sicily, but for some Qarthadastim holdouts, a big part of Magna Grecia had a lot of colonies in both Illyria, North Italy and even on Napoleons' island (Syrakosion limen).

That to me sounds like a lot of land property. Problem is that most people just don't know about it.I do not know what sources he used, but as he is a trusted EB Member, I trust him in this. I have at least found that Syrakousai had connections with the cities of Kamarina and Lissus in Epirus.

HamilcarBarca:


The tyrannoi of Syracuse had an influence outside of Sicily at their peak! Dionysius I of Syracuse held sway over most of Sicily, and ports in Magna Graecia - southern Italy - such as Kroton and Locri. In addition, Dionysius recruited Gallic mercenaries from the northern Adriatic (Senones), supported Greek enclaves in northern Italy (Spina) and the Adriatic Sea (Lissus & Pharos), and was an ally of Sparta.

King Agaothcles of Sparta also sought to dominate southern Italy, and made alliance with the Bruttians so as to dominate Kroton and Locri. And he famously sought to overrun Carthage and Libya in alliance with Ophellas - the ptolemaic governor of Kyrene...

So at its peak, the tyrants of Sicily were super-powers of the central Mediterranean.Of course, this information is very interesting. Combined with what I found on Wikipedia:


A treaty in 392 BC allowed Syracuse to enlarge further its possessions, founding the cities of Adrano, Ancona, Adria, Tindari and Tauromenos, and conquering Reggio Calabria on the continent.With all this information together, I made a map of what would seem historically accurate to me;

https://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x152/Elphir/Syrakousaiconditions.jpg

All of this together would them have conditions somewhat similar to a western Koinon Hellenon.

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Diplomatic relations:

From what I've gathered on the internets, it seems that the best way to start would to have the Syrakousioi at war with the Carthaginians and allied with Epiros Possibly also an alliance with the Koinon Hellenon (?).

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Concerning the military:

This might be an interesting site for some info on the Syracusan military: http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/II09.html

This is evidently stuff for a tabletop game, and I like to see it as re-enactment on a smaller scale:


3Cav Greek cavalry
2LH Greek light cavalry
4Sp Syracusan or mercenary hoplites
4Aux Can be depicted as follows:

* Mercenary Greek Peltasts who may have first appeared in this army when Thracian peltasts were first hired in 390 BC;
* Theureophroi appeared during the third century BC, after 275 BC according to DBM list. These replaced Peltasts; or
* Campanian or Samnites from southern Italy

3Aux Can be depicted as:

* Ligurians from Northern Italy;
* Sikels who were natives from the interior of Sicily; or
* Spanish mercenaries. Spanish troops at first may have been Celtiberians. So during Dionysios reign you may wish to replace Spanish Ax with Celtiberian 1x3Wb. Whether they were Celtiberians or not the first Spanish Mercenaries appeared in Syracuse army about 396 BC.

3Wb Mercenary Gauls
Art Bolt shooters
2Ps Archers, slingers or javelinmen

How would this translate to EB units?

3 Hippeis Xystophoroi
2 Hippeis or Hippakontistai
4 Hoplitai
2 Peltastai
2 Thureophoroi
2 Samniti Milites
2 Aichmetai Leukanioi
3 Gaemile Liguriae
3 Golberi Curoas
1 Triakontamnaioi Lithoboloi/Talantiaioi Lithoboloi
2 Sphendonetai/Toxotai/Akontistai

Of course, this exceeds the unit limit in one stack (which is 20). I think that a decent stack would be:

Classic Greek stack:
1 General [Hippeis Xystophoroi/Hippeis]
5 Hoplitai
2 Hoplitai Haploi
2 Peltastai
2 Thureophoroi
2 Toxotai
2 Sphendonetai
2 Hippakontistai
2 Hippeis


Why the Hippeis Xystophoroi as a General's unit? If we can believe what Thukydides (and VT Martin ;D) wrote:


As far as military is concerned, I believe that cavalry shall not be omitted: Thukydides account surprisingly strong cavalry contingents in Syracusan and her allies´ armies during Peloponnesian war. Of course, this is far from EB tie-frame, but one can assume that if there once was a rather strong cavalry tradition, it would not be abandoned completely 150 later.

As such I think it only fair to have the best Greek cavalry available as the bodyguard of the Syracusan general. However, according to the EB descriptions the Xystophoroi were mainly invented to counter the Macedonian heavy cavalry. Syrakousai never had any direct conflict with Makedonia, so they wouldn't have been invented there. However, the Xystophoroi could also just act as another type of heavy Greek cavalry.

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Should Syrakousai expand further, out of Sicily and into Megas Hellas, I think that a historic stack would look like this:

Italo-Hellenic stack:
1 General
5 Hoplitai
2 Samniti Milites
2 Peltastai
2 Thureophoroi/Hastati Samnitici
2 Toxotai
2 Sphendonetai
2 Equites Campanici
2 Hippeis/Hippeis Tarantinoi

Overall, I guess that wherever Syrakousai would expand, they'd make an extensive use of mercenaries, and seeing their special relation with the colonies in northern Italy, they'd probably get a lot of native units as well!

I could compose this information out of one link alone, sadly. If anyone else can get more information on the Syrakousan military, we could really take this proposal far.

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Family Members

I've found a good site concerning the royal family of Hieron and his father Hierokles.

http://www.cs.drexel.edu/~crorres/Archimedes/Family/FamilyTree.gif

I will now expand further about these family members:

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Hierokles: I've found very little concerning him, and he would most likely already be dead or very old in 272 BC, so I will not really go into detail about him. If there's anything to find about him anyways.

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Leptines: An interesting fellow. He was the father of Hieron's wife, Philistis. He was the son of Leptines I, who was Dionysios I's brother. This made him Dionysios' nephew, and thus a very influential character in Syrakousai. To represent this, Hieron might be given an "Influential wife"-like trait or start with a natural 1/2 influence. Family connections, eh. Leptines was exiled in 342 BCE and died in Corinth (it is unknown whether Philistis had already been born by then)

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Hieron: The King. He was born around 306 BC. In 275BC, after Pyrrhos had left and the city was left in turmoil, he executed a military coup and got into power. In 265 he defeated the Mamertines and was named Basileos by his subjects:

"This action put an end to the Mamertines’ aggressive conduct, and when Hiero returned to Syracuse he was saluted by all the allies as king [c. 265 BC]. " -Polybios.

This victory upset the delicate balance between the Carthaginians, Syracusans and Romans who all had a shared interest in Sicilia. Roma reacted by helping the Mamertines and Hieron and the Carthaginians were initially allied to eachother. When his forces were defeated multiple times, Hieron reconsidered and allied himself to the Romans:

"When the Romans went to war with Carthage for the possession of Sicily [the First Punic War], the Carthaginians held more than half the island, and Hiero sided with them at the beginning of the war. Shortly after, however, he changed over to the Romans, thinking that they were stronger, and firmer and more reliable friends." - Pausanias

Hieron was known as a wise and able ruler and his rule was characterized by prosperity. He eventually died in 215, his son Gelon dying in 216. He was extremely long-lived, for he had been about 90 at the time of his death.

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Philistis: Daughter of Leptines. She was quite important, I think, because Hieron even made coins with her image on them: 56K WARNINGhttp://www.math.nyu.edu/~crorres/Archimedes/Family/PhilistisObvBig.jpg

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Gelon II: Son of Hieron II. From what I've gathered, he died in 216, one year before his father who would have been 90 in 215 BC. According to the site I have found Gelon was "in his fifties" when he died, which would make Hieron 40 when he was born. In 272 he would be 3 years of age.

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Zoippos and Heraclia: Zoippos was the husband of Heraclia, Hieron's eldest daughter. Her birth date is unknown sadly. Logically, there would be a two to three year distance per child, so that would make Heraclia 9 or 10 in 272 BC. Too young to be married, I'm afraid. The character of Zoippos would have to be scrapped. Oh well, she'll find another one in-game.

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Adranodoros and Damarata: The same problem goes for Adranodoros and Damarata. If we make Damarata 3 years younger than Heraclia [Herakleia] she would be around six. That would mean no Adranodoros either!

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The family tree in 272 would then resemble this:

https://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x152/Elphir/EB/Familytree272.jpg

I am not responsible for any physical or mental damage done by my paint skills. ©Hax 2009

===========================================================================
Family Members: Done
Victory Conditions: Done
Military: Done
History: Done
===========================================================================

That's all for now! Ta-ta!

If you do choose not to include Syrakousai, I hope this can at least be a nice read for people which then might feel to make a mod of their own when EB II comes out.

Sources used:

http://www.livius.org/su-sz/syracuse/syracuse_history04.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syracuse,_Sicily
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=68&pos=10
http://www.livius.org/su-sz/syracuse/syracuse_history03.html
http://www.livius.org/su-sz/syracuse/syracuse_history01.html
http://www.livius.org/su-sz/syracuse/syracuse_history02.html
http://www.livius.org/sh-si/sicily/sicily_t12.html
http://books.google.nl/books?id=ywfP-v9zME4C&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=Ethnicity+of+Syracusans&source=bl&ots=erht0ALA4k&sig=rag6aCtW-7ffblUQruruBD2320Y&hl=nl&ei=bZOZSfqYC4ai-gbC7Lz5CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=112777
Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity
By Jonathan M. Hall
http://www.cs.drexel.edu/~crorres/Archimedes/Family/FamilyIntro.html Royal Family of Syracuse, Chris Rorres

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Disclaimer: I am merely a beta-tester for the EB team. I have no access to the EBH, and as thus I do not know what factions have been confirmed. The EB team cannot be held accountable for all the stuff I've written here.

[Meneldil]

Quite interesting.

I think a western greek faction stuck between the Romans and Carthage (and possibly Epeiros) would be quite a challenging and fun faction to play with. But if it has to be ditched in favor of a maybe more exotic/less well known faction, I wouldn't mind either.

Thanks for the read anyway :yes:

[antisocialmunky]

The EB guys weren't very receptive to the idea in the new factions topic. Oh well, I wouldn't mind seeing another KHish + starting money faction.

[Ludens]

Interesting stuff, Hax. Though, if I understood Krusader correctly, the problem with Syracuse as a faction is that we know next to nothing about their military in the post-Alexander period.

BTW, there is a typo in the sentence regarding the foundation date.

[Hax]

Interesting stuff, Hax. Though, if I understood Krusader correctly, the problem with Syracuse as a faction is that we know next to nothing about their military in the post-Alexander period.

Ah yes, this was also one of the questions I wanted to ask. It seems likely that Pyrrhos trained at least some troops in the phalangite way when he was in Sicily? Is this likely? Also, there were the Leukaspides from Taras, though I don't know whether a Syracusan equivalent existed.

[Phalanx300]

I certainly support this idea, they would make for a great faction. They would be between Carthage and Rome and would provide some more balance. And it would also make for some great gameplay!:2thumbsup:

And for those who think: But Syracuse conquering big parts of land is unhistorical. After the start of the game everything will be unhistorical, a rising Syracuse isn't that unlikely. Rome went from a City State to a empire, I find it naive to think that other city states couldn't perform the same!:yes:

So yeah, I really hope that it will be a faction. Along with some others hopefully, or instead of some others: Massilia, Bosporus, Cyrene, Aetolean League. I was also hoping that Pergamon would come in and it did.:2thumbsup:

As you've probably noticed I can't wait to see the next official EB faction.:smash:

[antisocialmunky]

Ah yes, this was also one of the questions I wanted to ask. It seems likely that Pyrrhos trained at least some troops in the phalangite way when he was in Sicily? Is this likely? Also, there were the Leukaspides from Taras, though I don't know whether a Syracusan equivalent existed.

My gut feeling would be Hoplites, Hoplites with more open order fighting styles, and Mercs. Honestly, that's probably the main barrier to inclusion.

[Hax]

My gut feeling would be Hoplites, Hoplites with more open order fighting styles, and Mercs. Honestly, that's probably the main barrier to inclusion.

I'm afraid so, yes. They would be a great candidate for even 50 years before the EB starting date, though.

[Novellus]

I could see a more flexible military, with some regional Italian units and Greek Peltastai. Their hoplitai appear to have adopted different tactics and weapons than their Hellenic counterparts, namely the longer spears and looser formations. Who knows?

[Hax]

An interesting idea, Novellus. Of course, the early Syracusan unit roster would be quite limited, but as they expand into Megale Hellas a variety of Italic units could open up. Think Samnitici Milites, Hastati Samnitici, Hippeis Tarantinoi and the like.

[Novellus]

I would have imagined those. I wonder how willing the Samnitici would have been to aide the Syrakousai? If there were any existing alliances or not, I mean. But yes, those units would definitely round off the roster should Syracuse be added as a faction.

It's a shame that none of the EB team members has commented yet. It would certainly relieve us of our suspense!

[Hax]

I do know that the Etruscans were engaged in several wars with the Syracusans, though some hundred years before EB's starting date. However, after the battle of Cumae in which a Etruscan fleet was completely destroyed, both Roma and the Samnites were awarded with large swathes of land. I guess that the Samnites would once again help the Syracusans should they emerge as the largest empire in Italy.

[Cute Wolf]

just mix of half Latin and half Greek army..... GREAT!!!

But AHISTORIC...:yes:

[antisocialmunky]

Well, a mix of loose order hoplites, mercenaries, and Italian regionals. Basically a hellenic fusion of Carthage and Rome.

We could always give them belly bows.

[paullus]

its not that we know nothing about syrakousai and its military...

[CaesarAugustus]

From what inforamtion is here on the Syrakousai they seem expansionist and powerful enough to warrant a faction slot in EBII... the question is, are there more important factions to portray instead? I think that a good case has been made for Syracuse, but I am afraid that when not in the hands of the human player they would only ever become a regional power at most, perhaps taking Sicily and Bruttium before being conquerd by the Romans.

[V.T. Marvin]

Excellent case, Hax!:2thumbsup: I sincerelly hope that Syracusae WILL be included as a faction.
BTW: consider how many people play her anyway in migration campaigns.

As far as military is concerned, I believe that cavalry shall not be omitted: Thukydides account surprisingly strong cavalry contingents in Syracusan and her allies´ armies during Peloponnesian war. Of course, this is far from EB tie-frame, but one can assume that if there once was a rather strong cavalry tradition, it would not be abandoned completely 150 later.


I am afraid that when not in the hands of the human player they would only ever become a regional power at most, perhaps taking Sicily and Bruttium before being conquerd by the Romans.

This not a very good argument. The same could be said about Pontos...

Nevertheless, there is a good chance that Syracusae will endure, because if they manage to conquer Sicily, they would have one ore two stacks in Messana-Rhegion area, making Rome reluctant to attack and sustain the pressure thither. Heck, I have seen Carthage AI (which is distracted by her numerous other fronts) to expand from Lylibeo as as far as Bononia in my EB 1.1. Pahlava campaign. So there is a chance.

Another pertinent question is how well the M2TW engine copes with naval force/invasios???

[Hax]

Another pertinent question is how well the M2TW engine copes with naval force/invasios???

It's way better than in RTW, and I think it's moddable to some extent.


We could always give them belly bows.

Ah yes of course, the Gastraphetes. However, was it used in large numbers enough to warrant a unit slot in EB II? From what I've found on the internets it says that the gastraphetes was invented around 400 BC (though some historians place it earlier around 425 BC). I'm pretty sure that the Syrakousioi would have good access to artillery though (which would be their main point in the game), as they invented a lot of those bolt-shooters.

[Hax]

Updated the first post with some information concerning the Syrakousian military.

[zooeyglass]

Updated the first post with some information concerning the Syrakousian military.

excellent case for a new faction - i am very much in favour (though of course my opinion counts for nothing) of these extended researched presentations for factions, rather than just yelling out names. so well done Hax, twas a good read, and could prompt some further good ideas.

[Cartaphilus]

Nice thread.

But, when we have another preview of a new official/real faction?

[Beefy187]

Im absolutely for Syracuse. Their presense should make Sicily chaos with Epeirus, Karthage, Rome and Syracuse :2thumbsup:

[V.T. Marvin]

Why the Hippeis Xystophoroi as a General's unit? If we can believe what Thukydides (and VT Martin ;D) wrote:

As far as military is concerned, I believe that cavalry shall not be omitted: Thukydides account surprisingly strong cavalry contingents in Syracusan and her allies´ armies during Peloponnesian war. Of course, this is far from EB tie-frame, but one can assume that if there once was a rather strong cavalry tradition, it would not be abandoned completely 150 later.

As such I think it only fair to have the best Greek cavalry available as the bodyguard of the Syracusan general. However, according to the EB descriptions the Xystophoroi were mainly invented to counter the Macedonian heavy cavalry. Syrakousai never had any direct conflict with Makedonia, so they wouldn't have been invented there. However, the Xystophoroi could also just act as another type of heavy Greek cavalry.



Oopps, Hax, I have written the cavalry remark to draw attention to some evidence, that Syracusan army used to employ more horses (numerically) than was the norm in the mainland Greece. It does not necessarily follow that those horsemen had been heavy lancers, though. My idea, and now I am recollecting what I have read in Thukidides out of my head, was more in the line of javelin/sword cavalry (something like Hippakontistai or Tarantinoi Hippeis, Hetairoi Aspidophoroi at best). Sorry if it sounded as some authoritative statement or led you to premature conclusion. :sorry:

I promise I will check again what could be found on the subject in Thukydides and post again as soon as possible.
Anyway, to decide the matter woud demand far more solid evidence than that. My guess is that Polybios might be a usefull source (and within EB timeframe!!!), but unfortuately I have not read him yet.:embarassed:
But I have bought a Czech translation his Histories a week ago so I can check this as well.:book:

And I am pretty sure that there is a lot of experts vastly more knowledgable than me who can shed some light on Syracusan military.
That arguent of Ludens ("the problem with Syracuse as a faction is that we know next to nothing about their military in the post-Alexander period") may be valid but certainly not decisive: there must be much more evidence and plausible analogy to base the game-reconstruction on for Syracuse than for certain other factions/units in EB.

[anubis88]

I don't believe syracuse would be a good addition to EB. Although the faction would be great if it were not for gameplay lacking. In my experience the most negative side of EB is that that the greatest wars in antiquity ( the punic wars ) are not portrayed. Rome stays away from sicily, and Carthage doesn't want to try and fight for Italy either. Imagine what would happen if another power was present in Sicily? If Syracuse conquered the island, i sincerly doubt that Carthage would try to regain it, and the romans as they seem in EB would probably rather go north.

If on the other hand MTWII improves on the AI naval operations and the EB team could find a way to "force" the punic wars, then i'm all for those treacherous greeks, since they couldn't decide whom to ally with

[Bucefalo]

Very well written Hax, It is nice to see more people interested in the Syrakousai faction:beam:

Here are a few quotes i found on the internet about the use of cavalry in larger numbers than other greeks (athenian, on the Sicilian expedition)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Expedition

The Athenian troops landed outside Syracuse, and lined up eight men deep with the Argives and Mantineans on the right, the rest of the allies on the left, and the Athenians themselves in the centre. The Syracusans were deployed sixteen men deep, in order to offset the advantage of the Athenians in experience. They also had 1,200 cavalry, vastly outnumbering the Athenian cavalry, although the total numbers of men were about the same. The Athenians attacked first, believing themselves to be the stronger and more experienced army, and after some unexpectedly strong resistance, the Argives pushed back the Syracusan left wing, causing the rest to flee. The Syracusan cavalry prevented the Athenians from chasing them, thereby averting a catastrophe for the Syracusans, who lost about 260 men, and the Athenians about 50. The Athenians then sailed back to Catana for the winter.

On September 13, the Athenians left camp leaving their wounded behind and their dead unburied. The survivors, including all the non-combatants, numbered 40,000, and some of the wounded crawled after them as far as they could go. As they marched they defeated a small Syracusan force guarding the river Anapus, but other Syracusan cavalry and light troops continually harassed them.

Another interesting read is the chapter VI of Thucydides´ History of the Peloponnesian War, who talks about the Sicilian expedition with more details.

http://www.bostonleadershipbuilders.com/thucydides/book06.htm

Here is a interesting quote i found:
The Syracusans, meanwhile, formed their heavy infantry sixteen deep, consisting of the mass levy of their own people, and such allies as had joined them, the strongest contingent being that of the Selinuntines; next to them the cavalry of the Geloans, numbering two hundred in all, with about twenty horse and fifty archers from Camarina


I hope it is useful for you Hax:2thumbsup:

[Hax]

I don't believe syracuse would be a good addition to EB. Although the faction would be great if it were not for gameplay lacking. In my experience the most negative side of EB is that that the greatest wars in antiquity ( the punic wars ) are not portrayed. Rome stays away from sicily, and Carthage doesn't want to try and fight for Italy either. Imagine what would happen if another power was present in Sicily? If Syracuse conquered the island, i sincerly doubt that Carthage would try to regain it, and the romans as they seem in EB would probably rather go north.

Indeed a very good argument. However, in Medieval II (and probably even likelier in Kingdoms) the naval AI has been greatly improved. I have seen numerous invasions by the Danes into England in Stainless Steel and several attacks by Scotland and England in France. I think that modded properly, we could force the Romans and Carthaginians to focus more on island holdings than in EB I.

[Bucefalo]

Here is a web about Hiero II of Syracuse, there are some quotes of Polybius too

http://www.math.nyu.edu/~crorres/Archimedes/Family/Hiero.html

[oudysseos]

Hax, really fantastic job.

Personally I think that Syracuse would make a great faction (this implies nothing about what the EBII team has already decided and is not an official endorsement). Particularly, I have always felt that a faction need not be poised for world domination: I would find it just as much fun to play a smaller regional power in an interesting position, and I think Syracuse fits that bill perfectly. I have a good Syracuse campaign going on in Paeninsula Italica 0.86, and although the dynamic is totally different because of the map and factions, still I can feel it.

[Hax]

Particularly, I have always felt that a faction need not be poised for world domination

My point exactly. Take for example the Seleukidai. I don't think they were really interested in claiming a big chunk of Germania, now. This is more obvious in the Koinon Hellenon, of course.

[Cyclops]

A very persuasive case you make Hax.

I like the proposed victory conditions, with the same "motherland" clause the Carthaginians have.

If Carthage is a raiding target, may I suggest Rome should be also? Its a bit of a blank spot in their map of italy.

[Phalanx300]

I agree, though maybe owning it might be better seeing that Greek colonies existed on the coasts there?

Also shouldn't Emporion also be part for the conditions? Seeing as it was a Greek colony?

[Hax]

That's a good question, Phalanx300.

However, I do not know the heritage of Emporion and Arsé apart from that they were Greek and whether they had a special relation with Syrakousai.

[Antinous]

It would be nice to have another faction in the eastern mediterean, I mean it only seems to be the Romans and Carthage. A little more fighting for regional suppersion would be nice!!

[a completely inoffensive name]

It would be nice to have another faction in the eastern mediterean, I mean it only seems to be the Romans and Carthage. A little more fighting for regional suppersion would be nice!!

You mean western Mediterranean.

[lenin96]

Hax has put forward the best argument for including a faction in a mod I have seen, but I fear that Syracuse would make AI expansion less historical, although it would be a good faction.

[zooeyglass]

Hax has put forward the best argument for including a faction in a mod I have seen, but I fear that Syracuse would make AI expansion less historical, although it would be a good faction.

fortunately, AI historical expansion is not really essential, is it? that is to say, as the EB have repeatedly said, they strive for historical accuracy for the starting point, but then are happy to let the engine run itself once a given campaign begins. it's been recognised that the amount of work and scripted occurences needed to force "historical" gameplay would be far too many to make the game enjoyable.

that said, it's also worth considering, why would people bother to play a faction like carthage, knowing that at some point, if the game were historical, they'd get their arse handed back to them by scripted ass-kickery. eventually anyway....

good going hax - if it were up to me, i'd say syracuse would make an excellent addition to the faction roster.

[Macilrille]

So would I, in fact I have stated the same before. However, massilia would make as good a faction, IMO, as would several German groups...

I look forward to the day
when we sit, old and gray
with a game that is 100% historically accurate, faction and political-wise. EB is the best thing within the limitations of the engine, and probably computer power as well. So I am happy :-D

[athanaric]

I like Hax's point that a faction need not be a potential superpower. However, I fear that the Total War AI will not understand the concept of "regional power". It will always try to eradicate all competition.

[Phalanx300]

Well thats the general concept of the Total War games, all faction will try to do that, the player as well(if he's able to keep his interest for that long:inquisitive:).

[athanaric]

Well thats the general concept of the Total War games, all faction will try to do that, the player as well(if he's able to keep his interest for that long:inquisitive:).

Yeah I know, but this constant "Total War" thing with the AI always intent on crushing you gets pretty annoying and it's not very historical either.

[Macilrille]

Hear hear, damn AI.

[Phalanx300]

Yeah I know, but this constant "Total War" thing with the AI always intent on crushing you gets pretty annoying and it's not very historical either.

Yeah it can get pretty annoying, though Med2 is having a somewhat more moddable AI diplomacy as well I believe.

[JRG]

The one problem I have with Syracuse is that I feel like at least one more city (preferably two) would have to be added to Sicily. I feel like even without Syracuse, three provinces is not really enough to simulate Punic Wars, although I respect the team's decision to try to not just focus on the Mediterranean and to have a more evenly spread out number of provinces. That said, it's hard to have a regional power without having enough regions in the first place. I guess it all comes to the province limit. :wall:

But I still would support having Syracuse in EBII.

[antisocialmunky]

You could use perma-forts to simulate small cities.

[JRG]

You could use perma-forts to simulate small cities.
That's a good idea, but has the team commented on whether or not they plan to use them? I thought the problem with those is that then you can't build any new forts on the campaign map.

[Meneldil]

Yeah I know, but this constant "Total War" thing with the AI always intent on crushing you gets pretty annoying and it's not very historical either.

Yeah, that's why Europa Universalis is in some aspects much better than Total War.

[Tudhaliya]

The one problem I have with Syracuse is that I feel like at least one more city (preferably two) would have to be added to Sicily. I feel like even without Syracuse, three provinces is not really enough to simulate Punic Wars, although I respect the team's decision to try to not just focus on the Mediterranean and to have a more evenly spread out number of provinces. That said, it's hard to have a regional power without having enough regions in the first place. I guess it all comes to the province limit. :wall:

But I still would support having Syracuse in EBII.

The city of Panormus MUST be included. That way I can have FMs from Panormus. Like Priam of Panormus. Or Panormion the Fat.


Teehee..


*Also the Greeks need a reliable counter to the Carthiginian city of Arse. Cuz otherwise the humour imbalance would ruin the game! LOL

[antisocialmunky]

They have an island full of Lesbians, the counter has be completed.

[lenin96]

fortunately, AI historical expansion is not really essential, is it? that is to say, as the EB have repeatedly said, they strive for historical accuracy for the starting point, but then are happy to let the engine run itself once a given campaign begins. it's been recognised that the amount of work and scripted occurences needed to force "historical" gameplay would be far too many to make the game enjoyable.
good going hax - if it were up to me, i'd say syracuse would make an excellent addition to the faction roster.

What I meant is realistic expansion (different to historical), Carthage could have won the Punic wars and although it's not historical there was probably a good chance they could have.
And you know how Hayasdan unrealisticaly attacks the steppes, I think that's something that should be improved as well, EB needs to be believable as well.

[eddy_purpus]

nice job OP....
Now i want to play as Syracuse :(:dizzy2:

[zooeyglass]

What I meant is realistic expansion (different to historical), Carthage could have won the Punic wars and although it's not historical there was probably a good chance they could have.
And you know how Hayasdan unrealisticaly attacks the steppes, I think that's something that should be improved as well, EB needs to be believable as well.

well, in that case, i do agree - there are situations that do seem fairly unrealistic, or alternatively realistic, at the start of the campaign. it is within possibility that carthage could have beaten down rome, just about...

i remember reading about how it was very hard to get the AI even to start invading in the right direction though - hence Hayasdan loving to soldier north to the steppe rather than head south. i suppose it's something that could change depending on what M2TW AI is like...but also, it becomes that juggling match between tweaking the mod so far that it loses its playability, or letting some things, like some odd AI movements, go unchecked, to allow the gameplay to prosper.

[lenin96]

Syracusai with Massillia would be good, I think you would need both to balance each other and they were both very important in the western mediterranian.

[Lucio Domicio Aureliano]

The one problem I have with Syracuse is that I feel like at least one more city (preferably two) would have to be added to Sicily. I feel like even without Syracuse, three provinces is not really enough to simulate Punic Wars, although I respect the team's decision to try to not just focus on the Mediterranean and to have a more evenly spread out number of provinces. That said, it's hard to have a regional power without having enough regions in the first place. I guess it all comes to the province limit. :wall:

But I still would support having Syracuse in EBII.

It´s true. But we must remember that there´re some interesting possiblities with the PST. For instance, you can have panormous and agrigentum as PST and the owners of PST will gain some bonuses.

[Lucio Domicio Aureliano]

That's a good idea, but has the team commented on whether or not they plan to use them? I thought the problem with those is that then you can't build any new forts on the campaign map.

I beleive they said they´re going to use it.

[V.T. Marvin]

To complement my previous post on Syracusans and cavalry, here are a few bits from sources that might be of general interest:


Where these conditions are lacking, it is a good method of training for two riders to work together thus: one flies on his horse over all kinds of ground and retreats, reversing his spear so that it points backwards, while the other pursues, having buttons on his javelins and holding his spear in the same position, and when he gets within javelin shot, tries to hit the fugitive with the blunted weapons, and if he gets near enough to use his spear, strikes his captive with it.


We want to explain also how a man who is to face danger on horseback should be armed.
We say, then, that in the first place his breastplate must be made to fit his body. For the wellfitting breastplate is supported by the whole body, whereas one that is too loose is supported by the shoulders only, and one that is too tight is rather an encumbrance than a defence. [2] And, since the neck is one of the vital parts, we hold that a covering should be available for it also, standing up from the breastplate itself and shaped to the neck. For this will serve as an ornament, and at the same time, if properly made, will cover the rider's face, when he pleases, as high as the nose. [3] For the helmet we consider the Boeotian pattern the most satisfactory: for this, again, affords the best protection to all the parts that project above the breastplate without obstructing the sight. As for the pattern of the breastplate, it should be so shaped as not to prevent the wearer from sitting down or stooping. [4] About the abdomen and middle and round that region let the flaps be of such material and such a size that they will keep out missiles. [5] And as a wound in the left hand disables the rider, we also recommend the piece of armour invented for it called the “hand.” For it protects the shoulder, the arm, the elbow, and the fingers that hold the reins; it will also extend and fold up; and in addition it covers the gap left by the breastplate under the armpit. [6] But the right hand must be raised when the man intends to fling his javelin or strike a blow. Consequently that portion of the breastplate that hinders him in doing that should be removed; and in place of it there should be detachable flaps at the joints, in order that, when the arm is elevated, they may open correspondingly, and may close when it is lowered. [7] For the fore-arm it seems to us that the piece put over it separately like a greave is better than one2 that is bound up together with a piece of armour.3 The part that is left exposed when the right arm is raised should be covered near the breastplate with calf-skin or metal; otherwise the most vital part will be unprotected.
[8] Since the rider is seriously imperilled in the event of his horse being wounded, the horse also should be armed, having head, chest, and thigh pieces: the last also serve to cover the rider's thighs. But above all the horse's belly must be protected; for this, which is the most vital part, is also the weakest. It is possible to make the cloth serve partly as a protection to it. [9] The quilting of the cloth should be such as to give the rider a safer seat and not to gall the horse's back.
Thus horse and man alike will be armed in most parts. [10] But the rider's shins and feet will of course be outside the thigh-pieces. These too can be guarded if boots made of shoe-leather are worn: there will thus be armour for the shins and covering for the feet at the same time.
[11] These are the defensive arms which with the gracious assistance of heaven will afford protection from harm. For harming the enemy we recommend the sabre rather than the sword, because, owing to his lofty position, the rider will find the cut with the Persian sabre more efficacious than the thrust with the sword. [12] And, in place of the spear with a long shaft, seeing that it is both weak and awkward to manage, we recommend rather the two Persian javelins of cornel wood. For the skilful man may throw the one and can use the other in front or on either side or behind. They are also stronger than the spear and easier to manage.5
[13] We recommend throwing the javelin at the longest range possible. For this gives a man more time to turn his horse and to grasp the other javelin. We will also state in a few words the most effective way of throwing the javelin. If a man, in the act of advancing his left side, drawing back his right, and rising from his thighs, discharges the javelin with its point a little upwards, he will give his weapon the strongest impetus and the furthest carrying power; it will be most likely to hit the mark, however, if at the moment of discharge the point is always set on it.



(6) As soon as they have acquired a firm seat, your next task is to take steps that as many as possible shall be able to throw the javelin when mounted3 and shall become efficient in all the details of horsemanship.
(21)As for throwing the javelin on horseback,6 I think that the greatest number will practise that if you add a warning to the colonels that they will be required to ride to javelin exercise themselves at the head of the marksmen of the regiment. Thus, in all probability, everyone of them will be eager to turn out as many marksmen as possible for the service of the state.

Please note, that Xenophon was writing about one hundred years before EB timeframe and that he was influenced by Persian style of warfare. Therefore his remarks might not be entirely applicable to the question of Syracusan cavalry in 3rd century BC.
However, the overall impression that highly mobile style of horse-warfare (i.e. skirmishing with javelins plus occasional charges with spear/lance and cutting down isolated infantry with sabres) was prevalent in Sicily as well could be deduced from Thukydides (alas again only for 4th century BC). While Thukydides nowhere speciffically discusses the equipment and tactics of the cavalry, it almost every time appears in conjunction with light troops (javelineers/darters) in harrasing role, which would suit the Xenophon´s more detailed description. Just for illustration following example might be interesting:


The Syracusans, meanwhile, formed their
heavy infantry sixteen deep, consisting of the mass levy of their own people, and such allies as had joined them, the strongest contingent being that of the Selinuntines; next to them the cavalry of the Geloans, numbering two hundred in all, with about twenty horse and fifty archers from Camarina. The cavalry was posted on their right, full twelve hundred strong, and next to it the darters.



Gylippus led out his heavy infantry further from the fortifications than on the former occasion, and so joined battle; posting his horse and darters
upon the flank of the Athenians in the open space, where the works of the two walls terminated. During the engagement the cavalry attacked and routed the left wing of the Athenians, which was opposed to them; and the rest of the Athenian army was in consequence defeated by the
Syracusans and driven headlong within their lines.


When they (the Athenians) arrived at the ford
of the river Anapus there they found drawn up a body of the Syracusans and allies, and routing these, made good their passage and pushed on, harassed by the charges of the Syracusan horse and by the missiles of their light troops. (...) The next day the Athenians advancing found themselves impeded by the missiles and charges of the horse and darters, both very numerous, of the Syracusans and allies; and after fighting for a long while, at length retired to the same camp, where they had no longer provisions as before, it being impossible to leave their position by reason of the cavalry.

Polybius, to whom I have put a lot of expectations sadly does not contain anything that could be used to further clarify the development of Syracusan military in the EB timeframe. :stupido2:

However, I still dare to maintain that units like hipakontistai or hippeis tarantinoi in quite large numbers would be adequate/plausible representation for Syracusan cavalry in EB(II)...

P.S.- Online edition of Xenophon´s minor works is here (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0210;query=toc;layout=;loc=Const.%20Lac.%201.1)

Sorry for the long post, hope you found it informative.

[Subotan]

@ Hax Add Etruria, Laitum, Lacetania and Kyrenika at least as raiding targets, and you've got a spiffy proposal for a faction.

[keravnos]

I agree, though maybe owning it might be better seeing that Greek colonies existed on the coasts there?

Also shouldn't Emporion also be part for the conditions? Seeing as it was a Greek colony?

Actually both Emporion and Hemeroskopeion would be part of the Syrakosai winning goals.

[Hax]

It seems that I have neglected this thread for a while. I've tried to do some more research on the Syracusan military, but I haven't been able to find that much. I did find an interesting PDF at

http://www.thewargamer.com/ccancients/modules/exp/CCA-X49-Tunis-307-BC.pdf.

With this article it seems I might be able to expand a bit more on the point of the Syracusan military. Counting the information of that PDF and the information given by V.T. Martin on the Syracusan military I'm able to add another list of possible armies for the Syrakousioi.


Syracusan Army (use Roman Blocks)
X2 Chariots (Libyan Light Chariots—see special rules): D4, D10
X1 Light Slinger: D7
X4 Light Infantry: C3, B3, C10, C11
X4 Auxillia (see special rules for tribal/mercenaries): C2, B2, B9, B10
X2 Medium Infantry: C4, C5
X4 Heavy Infantry (see special rules for Hoplites): C6, C7, C8, C9
X1 Medium Cavalry D12
X2 Light Cavalry: C1, C12
X2 Leaders C7 (Agathocles) C5 (Agatharcus, son of Agathocles)

The chariots would be obsolote in this time, and this is the first time that I've found any mention of chariots being used after about 350 BCE in a western Greek force, so I'll leave that out. The total stack in this pdf would number to exactly 20, isn't that great?!

So, a logic stack would be this:

2x Hippeis/Somatophylakes Strategou [counting Agathokles and his son]
2x Hippakontistai [the light cavalry mentioned]
1x Prodromoi [the medium cavalry mentioned]
4x Hippeis [the heavy cavalry]
2x Thureophoroi/Thorakitai [seeing that we're now a bit in the trickier zone, the vague "medium infantry" could either mean the Hellenic soldiers of the poleis of Sikilia, or Iberian mercenaries]
4x Hoplitai [the auxilia mentioned]
4x Hoplitai Haploi [the light infantry mentioned]
1x Balearic slingers/sphendonetai [the slingers mentioned]

===========================================================================

I've illustrated in my forming of the stack that some of the terms used in that pdf were a bit vague. Of course, this was created for a table-top game and as such tries to give the players a bit of room in which they can operate. So what units would be open for the Syrakousioi?

I have added an L for every local unit.

Light infantry: The definition of light infantry is a bit weird. What exactly is light or medium? I think that the Aichmetai Leukanoi in EBI might come close to the definition of light infantry; fast-moving, with little armour and meant for aggressive flanking. From the top of my head, a few units come to mind:

Gaemile Liguriae L
Aichmetai Leukanoi L
Ekdromoi Hoplitai
Phylectoi Illyrioi L
Illyrioi Paraktioi L

To be honest, I don't think the later two would be fit for at least an early-game Syrakousan army. The Aichmetai Leukanoi in EBI were recruitable in Taras, Rhegion and Messana. These cities are viable targets for early Syrakousan expansion (save Taras). The Ekdromoi hoplitai, however, were available only to the Koinon Hellenon in EB I.

Medium infantry: The medium infantry is not so difficult. Well-armoured, meant for all-round tasks. I remember being referred to the thureophoroi as being jack-of-all-trades, and as such the Thureophoroi are exactly what medium infantry is all about.

Thureophoroi
Peltastai
Pezoi Brettioi L
Hastati Samnitici L

The peltastai are a bit tricky, they are something of a gray zone between the psiloi and the medium infantry. I do know that a lot of the people that play EB use the peltastai as infantry after their javelins were depleted, so I included them in the medium infantry list. Now, thureophoroi are recruitable virtually anywhere from Syrakousai to Pergamon, so I won't go in on detail where they are recruitable. The Pezoi Brettioi and the Hastati Samnitici however, share a large part of their recruitable areas. The Pezoi are recruitable in Taras and Rhegion and the Samnitici Milites are recruitable in both of those areas as well as in Arpi and Capua. This all depends on what direction the player will go? Will he first unite Sicily and then march against the Carthaginians, or perhaps the Romans, or maybe the player even decides to go back home to Hellas to help their Epirote allies.

Heavy infantry: Basically these guys are meant to hold lines, to serve as shock infantry and such. Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi are a great example of this. However, Thraikia is thousands of miles away from Megale Hellas and Sikilia and thus does not make a great example.

Thorakitai
Samnitici Milites L

Thorakitai are not unlike the thureophoroi, only tougher and with heavier armour. The samnitici milites are like the Pedites Extraordinarii, with AP weapons and a scary amount of defense points. The thorakitai have about the same recruitable area of the thureophoroi, and the Samnitici Milites about the same as the Hastati Samnitici.

Hoplites: I think that the Syrakousioi would have access to at least three or four types of hoplitai, seeing as they were an independent Hellene poleis whose leaders had a healthy amount of xenophobia or conservatism [either the glass is half-full or half-empty ;)]

Hoplitai Haploi
Ekdromoi Hoplitai
Hoplitai
Syrakousioi Hoplitai

I've ranked them from top to bottom on their reliability, with the hoplitai haploi being least, and the Syrakousioi the most. These soldiers would probably make up the bulk of the Syrakusan army, and the most important. In the early-game the player would have to rely on the hoplitai haploi, and as time progressed and his (or her!) income would increase, he/she could slowly step over on the hoplitai.

Psiloi: Syrakousai is in an interesting position for their psiloi, not very far to the west are the Balearic isles as well as Sardinia and Corsica with their famed infantry.

Akontistai
Sphendonetai
Toxotai
Dorkim Shardanim [Sardinian infantry] L
Balearic slingers L

The start of a Syracusan game would be fairly alike to that of the Koinon Hellenon. What makes a Syracusan game more interesting is the fact that the amount of local soldiers is stunning. You have Iberian soldiers in Iberia (wow, what a surprise), the heavy Italic infantry in Italia and the Numidians in Africa. The Koinon Hellenon tends to stay stuck in Hellas and forces the player to keep on playing with typical Hellenic forces. This is not a bad thing at all, it just depends on the player, though to me personally it seems more interesting to be able to form a combination of local soldiers with the Hellenic forces.

Cavalry: VT Martin illustrated the point on the importance of cavalry in the Syracusan military, though that was in the 5th century BC. However, as I have stated in my previous points, the Syrakousai would have a lot of room to expand and reap the fruits of expansion.

Hippakontistai
Hippeis
Prodromoi
Hippeis Tarantinoi L (?)
Equites Campanici L
Liguriae Epos L

I find it interesting that I've been able to make up some of the most from cavalry alone, this will certainly make for an interesting faction. A bit like a combination between a cavalry-based steppe faction and a Hellenic hoplite-based faction, and that all in the middle of all the action: Sikilia.

===========================================================================

Now we've taken all of this into account, what would the factional and local barracks for Syrakousai look like? Let's take a look:

Factionals:

Syllogos Strateumatos [lvl1 fac]
Hoplitai Haploi
Akontistai
Hippakontistai

Syllogos kai Skeuotheke Strateumatos [lvl2 fac]
Hoplitai Haploi
Akontistai
Hippakontistai
Thureophoroi
Toxotai
Sphendonetai

Ephebeia kai Skeuotheke [lvl3 fac]
Hoplitai Haploi
Akontistai
Hippakontistai
Thureophoroi
Toxotai
Sphendonetai
Ekdromoi Hoplitai
Hoplitai
Prodromoi

Ephebeia Phrourike kai Skeuotheke [lvl4 fac]
Hoplitai Haploi
Akontistai
Hippakontistai
Thureophoroi
Toxotai
Sphendonetai
Ekdromoi Hoplitai
Hoplitai
Prodromoi
Hippeis
Hippeis Tarantinoi [only in Taras]
Thorakitai
Syrakousioi Hoplitai


Askesis Polemike kai Skeuothekai[lvl5 fac]
Hoplitai Haploi
Akontistai
Hippakontistai
Thureophoroi
Toxotai
Sphendonetai
Ekdromoi Hoplitai
Hoplitai
Prodromoi
Hippeis
Hippeis Tarantinoi [only in Taras]
Thorakitai
Syrakousioi Hoplitai

===========================================================================
Regionals:
Choriton Syllogos Strateumatos [lvl1 reg]
Illyrioi Paraktioi [Illyria]
Dorkim Shardanim [Sardinia]

Chorition Syllogos kai Skeuotheke Strateumatos [lvl2 reg]
Illyrioi Paraktioi [Illyria]
Dorkim Shardanim [Sardinia]
Illyrioi Thureophoroi [Illyria]
Gaemile Liguriae [Liguria]
Aichmetai Leukanoi [Taras, Rhegion, Messana]

Choriton Ephebeia kai Skeuotheke [lvl3 reg]
Illyrioi Paraktioi [Illyria]
Dorkim Shardanim [Sardinia]
Illyrioi Thureophoroi [Illyria]
Gaemile Liguriae [Liguria]
Aichmetai Leukanoi [Taras, Rhegion, Messana]
Pezoi Brettioi [Taras, Rhegion]
Equites Campanici [Roma, Capua, Rhegion]
Illyrioi Hippeis [Illyria]
Liguriae Epos [Liguria]

Choriton Ephebeia Phrourike kai Skeuotheke [lvl4 reg]
Illyrioi Paraktioi [Illyria]
Dorkim Shardanim [Sardinia]
Illyrioi Thureophoroi [Illyria]
Gaemile Liguriae [Liguria]
Aichmetai Leukanoi [Taras, Rhegion, Messana]
Pezoi Brettioi [Taras, Rhegion]
Equites Campanici [Roma, Capua, Rhegion]
Illyrioi Hippeis [Illyria]
Liguriae Epos [Liguria]
Samnitici Milites [Arpi, Capua, Rhegion, Taras]

Choriton Askesis Polemike kai Skeuothekai [lvl5 reg]
Illyrioi Paraktioi [Illyria]
Dorkim Shardanim [Sardinia]
Illyrioi Thureophoroi [Illyria]
Gaemile Liguriae [Liguria]
Aichmetai Leukanoi [Taras, Rhegion, Messana]
Pezoi Brettioi [Taras, Rhegion]
Equites Campanici [Roma, Capua, Rhegion]
Illyrioi Hippeis [Illyria]
Liguriae Epos [Liguria]
Samnitici Milites [Arpi, Capua, Rhegion, Taras]

===========================================================================

I hope to have been somewhat enlightening on the point of the Syracusan military and I sincerely hope this faction makes it in.

-Hax

EDIT: I have also created a new map based on Keraunos' information concerning the bond between Syrakousai and Emporion and Hemeroskopeion. I also changed Arretium and Roma to raiding targets as well as the Baleares as a target for conquest:

https://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x152/Elphir/Syrakousaiconditions-1.jpg

[SwissBarbar]

nice work mate!

[Mulceber]

Wait a minute, Hax, on the map, what do the Black, dark blue and light blue mean? I assume the dark blue is your starting position, but what about the others? -M

[A Very Super Market]

Black is the provinces you need to raid, as in hold for any amount of time, and light blue are your victory provinces. An educated guess, but it has been the same for each faction.

[Mulceber]

Oh ok, sorry - haven't been around the EBII forum that long. -M

[NIKOMAHOS]

Great work Hax.
We all hope that Syrakousai will be a new faction in EBII.

[Spartiaths]

Very nice suggestion Hax! Also your post looks like a preview of some sort. Very good job!
I believe that syrakousai will be a very good addition to eb as it was a powerful city at the time.
Also it is one of the factions along with pergamon which i would like to see and play as factions since the announcement of EB II.
But it's up to the EB team. I believe they will do what's best as in EB I!

[Mulceber]

I guess I can see both sides of the argument - on the one hand, it would be really cool to be able to play as the Syrakousaioi, rather than making them just another Eleutheroi province for Roma and Kart-Hadast to conquer.

But on the other hand, if we were to do that, we would have to give them just the city of Syrakousai, since we know from history that they didn't control Messana and they definitely didn't control Lilibeo. I don't think there are any factions in EB that start out with just one city, are there? I'm pretty sure most of them start out with at least 3 So in order to make it work, we'd really have to add at least 2 cities to Sicily and, given the scale of the campaign map, I'm not sure that island could support more cities without becoming ridiculously distorted. Maybe add a couple cities to the central portion of the island, like Leontini and Enna? That way Syrakusai could control one of them - probably Leontini - and the other would be another Eleutheroi province like Messana.

Another possibility, which may or may not have been suggested, would be to make Syrakousai one of the starting regions for the Koinon Hellenon. It's not very historically accurate, but it would make the fight for Sikilia more multi-dimensional, instead of purely being Roma vs. Kart-Hadast. Ultimately though, since Sikilia was not part of the KH, I don't think this would be a very good idea.

So I guess, in short, I support your petition for a Syrakusai faction, Hax, but I think that in order for it to work, we'd have to add another two provinces to Sikilia, at least one of which would have to be part of Syrakousai's starting territory. -M

[Hax]

I don't think there are any factions in EB that start out with just one city, are there?

Hayasdan, Baktria, Casse, Pergamon, Lusotannan, Sweboz, Pontos, Getai.

I've seen Baktria, Sweboz and Lusotannan grown really enormous, so that argument is kinda invalid. I do agree on the amount of settlements in Sikilia, though I'm afraid there's little to be done about that.


Another possibility, which may or may not have been suggested, would be to make Syrakousai one of the starting regions for the Koinon Hellenon. It's not very historically accurate, but it would make the fight for Sikilia more multi-dimensional, instead of purely being Roma vs. Kart-Hadast. Ultimately though, since Sikilia was not part of the KH, I don't think this would be a very good idea.

I really disagree on this point; it would be more logical to make them part of Epiros, though even that would be really pushing it.

[Mulceber]

Hayasdan, Baktria, Casse, Pergamon, Lusotannan, Sweboz, Pontos, Getai.

I've seen Baktria, Sweboz and Lusotannan grown really enormous, so that argument is kinda invalid. I do agree on the amount of settlements in Sikilia, though I'm afraid there's little to be done about that.

Fair enough - I'm not well-versed enough with the factions to make a real judgment anyway. Still, I think a couple more provinces should be added to Sikilia for several reasons:

1. If there was a Syrakousai faction, it would help ensure that Sikilia remains a conflict area, rather than having either the Karthadastim or the Syrakousaioi get bumped off the island early on.
2.It would make the island more profitable (more provinces = more mnai), so that it would be more of a prize for whoever conquered it.
3. It would make a war between Kart-Hadast and Roma more interesting, since there would be more territory on Sikilia to contend for.


I really disagree on this point; it would be more logical to make them part of Epiros, though even that would be really pushing it.

Again, that's why I didn't think it would really be a good idea. It's ahistorical and wouldn't really lead to much of a campaign, as either KH or the Karthadastim would be bumped off the island fairly quickly and then whoever was left would rule the island until the Romani showed up.

[Hax]

1. If there was a Syrakousai faction, it would help ensure that Sikilia remains a conflict area, rather than having either the Karthadastim or the Syrakousaioi get bumped off the island early on.
2.It would make the island more profitable (more provinces = more mnai), so that it would be more of a prize for whoever conquered it.
3. It would make a war between Kart-Hadast and Roma more interesting, since there would be more territory on Sikilia to contend for.

I believe this is where the use of PSF [permanent stone forts] might really come in handy.

[Mulceber]

I believe this is where the use of PSF [permanent stone forts] might really come in handy.

Why not go in the opposite direction? A PSF is basically a town without any infrastructure or population, apart from the military, right? Instead of permanent stone forts, why not create small towns that are too small to have any real MIC or unit-production ability but instead have a bit of infrastructure? Basically, farming communities with a market and maybe a drainage ditch. This would be something for the factions to fight over and would generate a bit of revenue, but wouldn't actually produce any troops. -M

[Meneldil]

Because there can only be 199 (198?) provinces?

[Hax]

Because there can only be 199 (198?) provinces?

199+1 sea province.

[Mediolanicus]

198+2 sea provinces.


Fixed for M2TW. :book:

[Foot]

Fixed for M2TW. :book:

It was believed that because MiNO had two sea provinces, that this was hardcoded. However it was later discovered that a map could be made with only one sea province and 199 land provinces. The EB map will have this ratio, not the MiNO one.

Foot

[keravnos]

For those interested in a possible Syracuse faction, I can't comment on its creation or not.

I have some clues to offer, however, if you care to follow through. (on its military, that is)
-1 epigraph of Solous and Centoripa in Sicily
-... troops sent from the King of Syracuse to his allies, the Romans, to fight in lake Transimene. (I would use an ancient writer to find which were those, if I were you)

please note that the two "hints" as it were aren't related.

[Mediolanicus]

It was believed that because MiNO had two sea provinces, that this was hardcoded. However it was later discovered that a map could be made with only one sea province and 199 land provinces. The EB map will have this ratio, not the MiNO one.

Foot

199+1 then it is :oops::wall:

[Bucefalo]

-... troops sent from the King of Syracuse to his allies, the Romans, to fight in lake Transimene. (I would use an ancient writer to find which were those, if I were you)

I only managed to found this quote, don´t know if that is what you were refering.

Polybius. 3.75
They sent also to king Hiero asking for reinforcements, who sent them five hundred Cretan archers and a thousand peltasts.

Also found another quotation from Livy but i think that refers to after the battle of the lake trasimenus

Livy. 22.37
[8] that he had seen foreign auxiliary as well as native light-armed troops in the Roman camps; [9] he had, therefore, sent one thousand archers and slingers, a suitable force against the Baliares and Moors, and other nations which fought with missile weapons,”

[keravnos]

Correct on both counts. Well done!

[Bucefalo]

Thanks, but i could only look it thanks to the web Perseus, really good for those who don´t own a copy of a classic author.:beam:

By the way, i was wondering too something about i quoted. Polybius says that the syracusoi sent 500 mercenary cretan archers to support the romans. Were they specifically recruited for that reason or were they more like long time mercenaries?

For example carthage is known to employ permanent mercenaries in his army. I was wondering if these cretans were usually quickly recruited for short campaigns (maybe they were hired only to support the romans) or were hired for long campaigns and they were just sent -still under syracusoi payment- to help the romans.

[keravnos]

Evidence seems to suggest they were recruited for more than a short stint. It was a contract which lasted for many years.

There were stele found in the Anatolian coast, speaking of Cretan mercs' employment and that evidence seemed to suggest that they had married local women and were there for quite some time.

Mamertines occupied Messana after being denied lands to settle in Syracuse, having being mercs to Syracuse for years. There is evidence of Syracuse employing Iberian and Celtic mercs, which too were probably settled among the populace.

The evidence we have of Iberian mercs gaining lands on Syracuse, are from Roman archives awarding them those lands, after Syracuse's capture in 212. It has been suggested that it was them who let the Romans in, not a rival faction of the city and the fact that they were awarded land by the Romans seems to suggest there is some truth to this.

[chairman]

I have just been Polybius' description of the Kleomenic War, especially the section concerning the build-up to the battle of Sellasia. He says that in the year before, Antigonas Doson disbanded his Makedonian troops for the winter, keeping only his mercanaries with him near Sicyon and Korinth, allowing Kleomenes to raid north unthreatened. This retaining of mercanaries for the winter when even the Makedonians were sent home suggests long term contracts.

I also remember reading, I think it was from Sekunda's Seleukid armies: 168-145 BC, that few mercanaries were present at the Daphne parade due to their acting as garrison in the distant cities of the empire, something that even the military settlers were not used for. This suggests a pattern of how Hellenistic rulers viewed the use of mercanaries: not as elite units but as around the clock military forces.

Chairman

[eddy_purpus]

I guess I can see both sides of the argument - on the one hand, it would be really cool to be able to play as the Syrakousaioi, rather than making them just another Eleutheroi province for Roma and Kart-Hadast to conquer.

But on the other hand, if we were to do that, we would have to give them just the city of Syrakousai, since we know from history that they didn't control Messana and they definitely didn't control Lilibeo. I don't think there are any factions in EB that start out with just one city, are there? I'm pretty sure most of them start out with at least 3 So in order to make it work, we'd really have to add at least 2 cities to Sicily and, given the scale of the campaign map, I'm not sure that island could support more cities without becoming ridiculously distorted. Maybe add a couple cities to the central portion of the island, like Leontini and Enna? That way Syrakusai could control one of them - probably Leontini - and the other would be another Eleutheroi province like Messana.

Another possibility, which may or may not have been suggested, would be to make Syrakousai one of the starting regions for the Koinon Hellenon. It's not very historically accurate, but it would make the fight for Sikilia more multi-dimensional, instead of purely being Roma vs. Kart-Hadast. Ultimately though, since Sikilia was not part of the KH, I don't think this would be a very good idea.

So I guess, in short, I support your petition for a Syrakusai faction, Hax, but I think that in order for it to work, we'd have to add another two provinces to Sikilia, at least one of which would have to be part of Syrakousai's starting territory. -M

They (Syracusians) should be controlled by The Koinon Hellenon alliance..
If the Koinon Hellenon controls two huge city rivals Sparte and Athens ? why not control another greek province ?:leo:

[A Very Super Market]

Because the KH was a historic alliance at the time, that did not include Syrakousai. Now you're getting into the mentality of the vanilla game, with the absolutely disgusting "Greek Cities" faction.

[Mediterraneo]

Hello everybody,
and thanks to Hax for his work on this.
I strongly support the inclusion of Syrakousai in EBII, for its historical role and my own taste.


I'd like to make a suggestion about its victory conditions:
I'd like its victory conditions to include more dispersed and isolated trade ports (both on islands and peninsulas) than long lines on the coast. An example of the style i feel correct would be quitting something on the illyrian coast (and maybe in northern Italy too) and adding Crete and Kyrene to it.

Why?
Because it never showed an obsession for land control outside Sicily
Because almost every operation it took outside Sicily was either a limited action in support of allies or a naval raid against a specific city (difficult to differentiate between attacking a city or a region in 199 provinces, but....)
Because of it being the first wester hellene naval power, a very popolous city without a permanent citzen army, which supported its strenght and population with the control of the sea routes. Maybe surviving to Rome and Cartago would change its focus, but that would lead Syrakousai to the western mediterranean and rather than towards Illyria (speculative but sensate: it would be the main blank spot in the map without Rome and KH, and within historical area of intervention of Syracousai).
Because it was a naval and commercial economical power with little interest in filling the corners of the seas and more on the islands and straights to control the routes. A port in the Adriatic is very good (to get their products), controlling the whole coastline quite costly, especially for a power that clearly has to think in the "bang per buck" of its military as a mercenary naval power like Syracousai.
Because, in the case of Kyrene, they already messed with their affairs (let me see: an assassin to kill their leader... then a diplomat to bribe their army... yes, the cost went down... Ok, right! Unlce Agatokles did it this way!)


I go on with a separate point on the victory conditions. I see very well the necessity for Syracusai of destrying Cartago, the direct competence in Sicily, in commerce, in route control, and at few tens of kilometers from it. You could even say that Syracousai cannot win without outlast KH. But I feel that it could have less necessity of burning Rome: it is the enemy of my enemy, and against them the only contrast point is about Sicily control. Winning that control (and that of Taras and Rhegium too on the way) resolves the problem: that's not a centuries long feud between Hellenes an Phoenicians, fighting battles in the very same day of Salamina and the like (with the added western Sicily punic allies that were believed of troian ancestry and that)


What are the accessible sources about the Syracusan foreign policy when not costricted by the presence of stronger enemies on "homeland" Sicily? That is, besides its link with Corinth?
I hope this can be useful, althought it ended up far longer than I thought!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, I do not say "Cartago" for Kart Hadast because I'm an etnocentric italian speaker, it is because i cannot spell it....

[Tanit]

By the way, if Syracuse were to become a faction, not only would Hiero be the faction leader, but among the family members would be an 18 year old Archimedes who was just finishing school in Alexandria and preparing to come home in 272 BC.

[Alsatia]

Syracuse would be fun but it also adds some goal to an island of emptiness in the game unless you want to destroy the Qarthadastim. btw since Syracuse had those mirror towers to burn off ships, should there be some difficulty to blocade the port? But that seems especially unlikely.

[A Very Super Market]

lolwut?

I'm sorry, those mirrors are a myth. That never happened. It is physically impossible anyways, and if you don't have the time to read a bunch of textbooks about it, you can always watch freaking Mythbusters. That is how far that myth has been disproven.

[anubis88]

lolwut?

I'm sorry, those mirrors are a myth. That never happened. It is physically impossible anyways, and if you don't have the time to read a bunch of textbooks about it, you can always watch freaking Mythbusters. That is how far that myth has been disproven.

Yeah i saw that episode too. But guess what? I've been reading TODAY a study of hannibal and the second punic war, and ofcourse the professor writing it said that syracuse was so difficult to capture becouse of those mirrors:laugh4:

[Tanit]

A lot of experiments have been done regarding the mirrors. In all cases it depends on the conditions involved. Those against the mirrors point out that it is hard to aim, requires clear skies, and needs too much time to set a ship on fire. Those for the mirrors have done their own experiments and claim things such as properly built ships with pitch or tar are easier to set on fire than those without. Its an ongoing debate.

[oudysseos]

Mythbusters are entertainers: MIT are scientists. They have successfully built both Archimedean mirror death rays and a Da Vinci/Archimedes steam gun. I doubt that the Syracusans actually did burn any Roman ships, but the idea is not ludicrous.

[Atilius]

Polybios, writing about 60 years after the siege of Syracuse, makes no mention of mirrors or steam guns. He praises Archimedes extravagantly, but refers only to crossbows, scorpions, catapults, articulated stone-droppers, and ship-lifting grapnels.

[A Very Super Market]

I did not cite Mythbusters as a primary source. Technically, I cited none at all, but I wasn't going to use them in any case. I meant it simply as an easy way to refute what I still believe is a myth without spending time researching it yourself in a mostly pointless endeavour.

[eddy_purpus]

Because the KH was a historic alliance at the time, that did not include Syrakousai. Now you're getting into the mentality of the vanilla game, with the absolutely disgusting "Greek Cities" faction.
You calling me disgusting :( ?
:tongue:
Well ... it would save one faction slot :P

[lenin96]

Thats true but you couald say that for a lot of factions, It depends on what gives the most historical gamplay.

[eddy_purpus]

Thats true but you couald say that for a lot of factions, It depends on what gives the most historical gamplay.

~:cheers:

[keravnos]

You calling me disgusting :( ?
:tongue:
Well ... it would save one faction slot :P

Ok, I will say it again: Syracuse at the time of EB was styling itself as a Hellenistic Kingdom, much like Pergamon or even Ptolemaioi (with whom there was a lot of trade and cultural exchange, see "syrakosia" ship). In fact, if a name were to be chosen, it would be closer to "Basileion Syrakosion" or "Kingdom of the Syrakosians" than anything else. Prior to the Romans coming in Syracuse, it controlled all the Trinakrie syracuse (with only the Mamertines/Mesana region outside of its control).

[Hax]

Strictly speaking, was it even a Kingdom? At a certain point it was an oligarchy, and I believe Hieron II never called himself "Basileos".

[Bucefalo]

Hiero II was proclaimed Basileos indeed
In 265 BC Hiero won a decisive victory over the Mamertines, a gang of Italic mercenaries who ran a pirate empire from the Sicilian city of Messana which they had captured. As a result, Hiero was proclaimed King of Syracuse by his grateful subjects. Here is the source http://www.cs.drexel.edu/~crorres/Archimedes/Family/Hiero.html

[Hax]

@Bucefalo: Thank you, that's very interesting.

According to a book I received from my father "ALLADIN'S LAMP: How Greek Science Came to Europe Through the Islamic World" by John Freely, it stated that Hieron's son and successor was a man named Gelon:


Greek mathematical physics reached its peak with the works of Archimedes (ca. 287-212 B.C.) who was born at Syracuse in Sicily. Archimedes is said to have spent some time in Egypt and corresponded with Eratosthenes. It is probable...

Archimedes was a relative and friend of Hieron II of Syracuse and of the king's son and successor Gelon II.

It's interesting to read this, since I haven't found anything else concerning this Gelon II. Apparently he died in 216, one year before his father's death when he was "over 50 years old"* This would make him around 5 years old during the start of our game. He married Nereis, daughter of Pyrrhos later in life.

For more information, I will now update the first post with more stuff on family members.

[Macilrille]

Control yourself guys, please.

it is not fair to spam someone's attempt at getting a new faction included.

I always thought Syracouse should be in. Hieron played a major part in the First Punic War.

Syracouse, Massilia, Celtiberians, Numidia, Pergamon, Cimbri, Marcomanni and Boii, possibly Mauretania as well, but not Cyrene IMO. I am sorry, I am unconvinced. Perhaps another Celtic or nomadic faction?

[Ludens]

Syracouse, Massilia, Celtiberians, Numidia, Pergamon, Cimbri, Marcomanni and Boii, possibly Mauretania as well, but not Cyrene IMO. I am sorry, I am unconvinced. Perhaps another Celtic or nomadic faction?

No new eastern factions? And aren't the Marcomanni part of the Suebi (Sweboz) confederacy?

[Phalanx300]

No new eastern factions? And aren't the Marcomanni part of the Suebi (Sweboz) confederacy?

Yes, I think they are. Probably the Bastarnae are a likely new Germanic faction, and the Lugii as a partly Germanic faction.


Syracouse, Massilia, Celtiberians, Numidia, Pergamon, Cimbri, Marcomanni and Boii, possibly Mauretania as well, but not Cyrene IMO. I am sorry, I am unconvinced. Perhaps another Celtic or nomadic faction?

And I personally also rather have Syracuse as a faction, yet Kyrene would make for a great faction as well.

[paullus]

no new eastern factions at all in that list? really?

[Macilrille]

I am not a historian of the East, is why I added a possible nomad faction. With the Indian empires ruled out, what factions could there be?

One could consider Nubia as well.

[Kara Mustafa]

Maybe a semitic faction like Nabatea or Qutaban(sp?), also a Mauryan satrapy was considered a possible candidate...

[Ludens]

I am not a historian of the East, is why I added a possible nomad faction. With the Indian empires ruled out, what factions could there be?

Kartli/Colchis and Caucasian Iberia are the most likely candidates, in my opinion. And IIRC there was another Seleucid breakaway province or two that tried to set themselves up as independent kingdoms.

[V.T. Marvin]

Atropatene? :idea2:Oh yeah, that would be great to have! :yes:
But IF ANY new faction would be included in the East, than Kyrene or some other faction to challenge the Ptolemaioi woud become NECESSARY, just from the AI balance point-of-view: to prevent AS to be totally overcome too soon, IMHO.:sweatdrop:

[Ludens]

But IF ANY new faction would be included in the East, than Kyrene or some other faction to challenge the Ptolemaioi woud become NECESSARY, just from the AI balance point-of-view: to prevent AS to be totally overcome too soon, IMHO.:sweatdrop:

Sorry, but I am tired of this argument. In the first place faction balance is likely to be different in EB2 because the base engine and A.I. are different. Secondly, there are more ways of balancing a faction than by giving them an additional rival, which is just as well since there are few faction slots to go round. "Balancing another faction" is not, and should not be, a criterion for faction inclusion.

[Cyclops]

My semi-formed impression is we have one confirmed Hellenistic addition (Pergys*, one un-named Hellenistic faction and one un-named Nomad faction (guesses were swirling around Skythians and Bosphorans amongst others). That leaves what? 5 more?

So much more good stuff the devs are putting into this.


...also a Mauryan satrapy was considered a possible candidate...

Elephant generals

I have resigned myself to not seeing this, but if it happens I will be one very happy boy indeed.

*One of the extra pleasures of the expanded faction list will be developing the shorthand nomenclature. I propose Pergamon be designated "Pergys" or P-Mons. In the (admittedly unlikely) event of a Mauretanian faction making it in, I suggest "Moops".

[chairman]

Pergamon is required to be "Pogemon" (Grimm's law g<>k).

But other names are also welcomed.

Chairman

[ziegenpeter]

Pergamon is required to be "Pogemon" (Grimm's law g<>k).

But other names are also welcomed.

Chairman

I dont see why grimms law which is about g&k makes "er" out of "o".
Could you please explain this to me? I seem to have forgotten sth about this subject.

[A Very Super Market]

I believe the joke here is to make it sound like "Pokemon". You know, the game and Japanese tv show that every kid and their dog was playing in the late '90s.

[ziegenpeter]

I was really believing there was an linguistic explanation, I guess I am a nerd.
And all those who got the joke too!

[DeathFinger]

I believe the joke here is to make it sound like "Pokemon". You know, the game and Japanese tv show that every kid and their dog was playing in the late '90s.

Wouf! Wouf! :laugh4:

[artaxerxes]

Great to see somebody also wanting Syracuse. Since the city had been a major power several times over, I think it's fair to say that it was only the growing power of Rome and Carthage that kept it from becoming so again. Since Eb isn't always historical, theres no reason why it shouldnt have another chance. It would also make Sicily less dull and more warlike - like Asia Minor fx.
I also don't really get the "we don't know enough of their military to include them" well of course it's an obstacle and Ican understand the difficulty that follows. but it isn't very historically correct to wipe somebody off the face of the earth, just because we don't know about them :P I mean, what if we didn't know a thing of Carthage's military - should Northern Africa then be all Eleutheroi?:inquisitive:

Also I really think Western Mediterranean - no matter the lack of naval AI (which we don't know how serious will be) - will be less historic without Syracuse no matter what. A faction more will add some more urgency to the actions of the AI, and either they'll be quickly destroyed, leading to the usual Rome/Carthage warfare, or they'll win some wars and actually succeed as a faction, or, worst case scenario, Carthage will be thrown of the island, Rome will then destroy them and the Western Mediterranean will be as dull as before:smash: I mean, I can't see how it should do anything but improve the western mediterranean

besides, they're one of the only factions I can think of that needs adding to the game. Pergamum was another. Then someone in eastern Europe and someone in northern Africa near Carthage. What EB2 should do with the other slots I have no idea.:beam: (but I am looking forward to all new factions, I just hope Syracuse gets the place I think they deserve)

[Macilrille]

Syracouse, Massilia, Celtiberians, Numidia, Pergamon, Cimbri, Marcomanni and Boii, possibly Mauretania as well, Nubia, Bosporan Kingdom, Atropatene and Cholchis. Too many...

The Marcomanni were part of Suebi confederation in 58 BC, but probably not in EB timeframe, they would have become part of the Suebi by conquest or alliance. That is how the Germanic tribes evolved.

I would be most inclined to take away the Marcomanni, Mauretania and Bosporans though.

[Phalanx300]

I believe that I played the Sweboz with the Marcomanni in the tribe..



Anyways, for factions, I think that the Boii and Belgae are a given. The Lugii or the Bastarnae may also make it in. For other Hellenic factions its difficult to say, I´m sure the EB team will make a good choice. :2thumbsup:

[Bucefalo]

Good day,

Here i leave you a link of a preview of the Syrakousai faction of Roma surrectum, i found quite interesting the research they did and i think it could serve as inspiration or simply curiosity to the EB team.:2thumbsup:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=201431

Regards

[Xtiaan72]

So it has to be asked, has all the talk of Strakousai swayed the EB team at all? I know they said early on that it wouldn't be a faction.

[Phalanx300]

Well as shown in the which faction would you want tread Syrakousai are shown as a very popular faction which most people do want. :2thumbsup:

[Meneldil]

Well, as said repeatedly in the past, the EB team doesn't really care about what people want and what is popular.

If Syracuse is deemed worthy on a historical base, it will be included. If not, it won't, and I doubt polls and topic will change anything.

[Alsatia]

That's my thread. :beam::beam::beam:

I also agree with the above that polls or opinion will not change anything because the EB Team is more focused on historical fact rather than popularity.

[artaxerxes]

Alright, but then I hope it makes it in EB3:laugh4: