What's With the Birth Certificate Thing?

[Lemur]

I understood the manufactured controversy over President Obama's birth certificate during the election. It made a rough sort of sense, and it played into the "He's an outsider" meme that the McCain campaign was trying to ride to victory.

Nevertheless, the Obama campaign made a copy of his BC to the press. If it were a forgery, as the tinfoil hat crowd predictably screamed, it would have been debunked by the State of Hawaii. Unless they were in on it too, but now we're getting into deep paranoid delusion land, so let's leave it alone. Copy of his BC under the tag below.


https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Lemurmania/bobirthcertificate.jpg

Nevertheless, we have Alan Keyes (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/02/obama-birth-cer.html) going on about how Obama isn't a citizen, and now Senator Richard Shelby (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0209/Shelby_dabbles_in_citizenship_rumor.html?showall).

Question for the rightwing Orgahs: Is this a serious meme out there amongst the blogs and the talk radio? How much frothing about this is going on, and are people taking it seriously?

[rvg]

Not a right wing Orgah myself, but I *was* in the McCain camp. Anyhoo, the Obama citizenship speculations are strictly in the nutso kook category imho. He's as American as apple pie. He won, let's move on now.

[drone]

"Island of Birth"? Hawaii is just rubbing it in our faces. :laugh4:

[Geezer57]

There are lots of doubts (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81943) about Obama's legitimacy for the office of POTUS. All of which he could have avoided, if he'd provided the original vault copy of his Birth Certificate for examination, if he'd opened his school records (some claim he accepted aid money as a "foreign student"), and if he'd clarified under what passport he traveled to Pakistan in the 1980's (he was too old to travel as a dependent on a parent's passport, but didn't have a US passport until he became Senator of Illinois, many years later).

Of course, if he'd provided all this info, he might just not be President now, eh?

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

In truth, I've never understood this "natural born US citizen" clause. It's racist IMO - why shouldn't I/any immigrant from any country or background be able to go to the US now, live there for fifty years and become president? If the people are so vehemently opposed to having a foreigner in command they won't vote for them and so they wouldn't get elected.

~:)

[rvg]

In truth, I've never understood this "natural born US citizen" clause. It's racist IMO - why shouldn't I/any immigrant from any country or background be able to go to the US now, live there for fifty years and become president? If the people are so vehemently opposed to having a foreigner in command they won't vote for them and so they wouldn't get elected.

~:)

There's nothing racist about it. It's there to ensure that there is absolutely no conflict of interests and no clash of loyalties when it comes to the highest office in the land. Does it lock out some highly qualified people? Absolutely. I lament the fact that The Governator cannot run for prez, but that's the price we pay to ensure that the U.S. president is 100% loyal to his country.

[Subotan]

Likewise, considering as McCain was born inside the Panama Canal Zone, he too was actually ineligible to become President.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I understood the manufactured controversy over President Obama's birth certificate during the election. It made a rough sort of sense, and it played into the "He's an outsider" meme that the McCain campaign was trying to ride to victory.

Nevertheless, the Obama campaign made a copy of his BC to the press. If it were a forgery, as the tinfoil hat crowd predictably screamed, it would have been debunked by the State of Hawaii. Unless they were in on it too, but now we're getting into deep paranoid delusion land, so let's leave it alone. Copy of his BC under the tag below.


https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Lemurmania/bobirthcertificate.jpg

Nevertheless, we have Alan Keyes (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/02/obama-birth-cer.html) going on about how Obama isn't a citizen, and now Senator Richard Shelby (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0209/Shelby_dabbles_in_citizenship_rumor.html?showall).

Question for the rightwing Orgahs: Is this a serious meme out there amongst the blogs and the talk radio? How much frothing about this is going on, and are people taking it seriously?

I think only the hacks, and the nuttier hacks at that, are pushing this. Even the Senator you cited doesn't care about it.

I haven't heard any of the less whacky (aka non-Glenn Beck types) radio hosts talking about this, but I don't listen to them, so I'm relying on reports, or the lack of, on what they said.

EDIT:

In truth, I've never understood this "natural born US citizen" clause. It's racist IMO - why shouldn't I/any immigrant from any country or background be able to go to the US now, live there for fifty years and become president? If the people are so vehemently opposed to having a foreigner in command they won't vote for them and so they wouldn't get elected.

Racist? Do you even know what that word means?

CR

[Strike For The South]

Likewise, considering as McCain was born inside the Panama Canal Zone, he too was actually ineligible to become President.

BRINGING DOWN THE LIES (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/28/politics/main3977521.shtml)

[Strike For The South]

EDIT:


Racist? Do you even know what that word means?

CR

US Citizen=White. HOW DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND

[Hooahguy]

maybe it was forged? :inquisitive:
jk. any sane person knows that hes a citizen.

[Spino]

In truth, I've never understood this "natural born US citizen" clause. It's racist IMO - why shouldn't I/any immigrant from any country or background be able to go to the US now, live there for fifty years and become president? If the people are so vehemently opposed to having a foreigner in command they won't vote for them and so they wouldn't get elected.

~:)

It's hardly racist, it's simply a privilege afforded natural born citizens. Full blown citizenship loses its value if you make it so easy for foreigners to attain.

[Ironside]

There's nothing racist about it. It's there to ensure that there is absolutely no conflict of interests and no clash of loyalties when it comes to the highest office in the land. Does it lock out some highly qualified people? Absolutely. I lament the fact that The Governator cannot run for prez, but that's the price we pay to ensure that the U.S. president is 100% loyal to his country.

So there's no need to check national born citizens for espionage or other actions that requires less than 100% loyalty to the country. Brilliant!! :logic:

It's a stupid law. :juggle:


It's hardly racist, it's simply a privilege afforded natural born citizens. Full blown citizenship loses its value if you make it so easy for foreigners to attain.

Like impossible legally? Since you can only get born once.

But I guess thats one reason why the "bastion on induvidual freedom" has so much focus on family lines. :book:

[rvg]

So there's no need to check national born citizens for espionage or other actions that requires less than 100% loyalty to the country. Brilliant!! :logic:

It's a stupid law. :juggle:



Like impossible legally? Since you can only get born once.

But I guess thats one reason why the "bastion on induvidual freedom" has so much focus on family lines. :book:

Can I move to Sweden and become king? Just asking.

[Lemur]

Can I move to Sweden and become king? Just asking.
I can. And I will.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

nevermind

[Spino]

So there's no need to check national born citizens for espionage or other actions that requires less than 100% loyalty to the country. Brilliant!! :logic:

It's a stupid law. :juggle:



Like impossible legally? Since you can only get born once.

But I guess thats one reason why the "bastion on induvidual freedom" has so much focus on family lines. :book:

Yes, legally impossible provided the law stands as is.

The naysayers might want to consider that this natural born citizen requirement was incorporated so as to prevent and/or minimize 'foreign intrigues' from having a direct influence on our nation's government. Meaning if anyone could hold the highest political office in the country then it wouldn't take much effort for a foreign power to move a 'favored son' through the citizenship process and then groom them for a life of politics, directly supporting them throughout their political career. Clearly the founding fathers did NOT want a situation where opportunistic international elitists or aristocratic 'blue bloods', wealthy foreign yahoos, foreign agents of a hostile power, etc. could somehow weasel their way into the system and make a mess of things. Requiring that the president be a natural born citizen simply helps to stack the deck in our favor. So yeah, if you're born abroad and want to be president then too bad, the US doesn't exist for the sole purpose of fulfilling every foreigner's fantasies. However if your kids are born here then nothing is stopping them from reaching for that brass ring.

Not that this stipulation prevents lobbyists and foreign governments from affecting our domestic & foreign policies but as I said, the 'natural born' requirement is simply an extra ounce of prevention.

[Ironside]

I can. And I will.

I would recommend the marry the crown princess (I think she still will maintain the head of state though) route, as royal elections are a bit old school (about 500 years off and required the predecessor's death). Any other route is nigh impossible for about anyone not belonging to the royal family. I guess abdication and naming a successor might work if you get really popular with the people so they don't abolish the monarchy instead.

Becoming a minister (and thus Prime minister, don't have enough time to check is there's special conditions for those but I doubt it) and getting the actual power, requires Swedish citizenship for 10 years. Slightly easier I think, and your wife might be less mad at you aswell. ~;)

And Spino, could a foreign agent become president in the US the way you describe, you already lost democracy decades before that event (requires loss of the freedom of press). And as you said, not really hard to get hold of candidates if you want to or need to.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Likewise, considering as McCain was born inside the Panama Canal Zone, he too was actually ineligible to become President.

That is about as true as saying that Obama was ineligible, as SFTS pointed out. An interesting election however, where the main two candidates were not from the mainland United States.

EDIT: And the "natural born citizen" clause makes perfect sense. If I was to move to America now, acquire citizenship, and eventually run for President and win the Presidency, I would have a difficult time - even subconsciously - making difficult decisions about Germany. It does make sense.

[lars573]

Can I move to Sweden and become king? Just asking.
That's what the ancestor of the current king did, Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte :yes: The Swedish king is French, the Spainish king too.


In truth, I've never understood this "natural born US citizen" clause. It's racist IMO - why shouldn't I/any immigrant from any country or background be able to go to the US now, live there for fifty years and become president? If the people are so vehemently opposed to having a foreigner in command they won't vote for them and so they wouldn't get elected.
Someone made a point that the natural born thing was to stop a european princeling from using his inherited wealth to buy his way to the top and ruin everything.

[InsaneApache]

He's a Russian Commie bastard. Jeez some people!

P.S. That there burf cetifcate, looks like a yankee plot to help the Russian Commie bastards.

[Vladimir]

This is the most recently I've heard about this reattempt. There is far more red meat for us frothing conservatives to devour. The "stimulus" package, while intended to stimulate the economy, stimulates fiscal conservatives more. Does anyone really care about this? Does anyone care that there was a female pope? Does it matter? There are much more salient issues to discuss.

[FactionHeir]

I disagree with the birth clause for the simple reason that someone from say Mexico illegally enters the US of A while pregnant and gives birth. Then returns to Mexico for however long and the kid can eventually go to the States and become President and for instance be fully supported and influenced by Mexico.

So really, it doesn't prevent what was suggested as its original reason by Spino.

[Strike For The South]

I disagree with the birth clause for the simple reason that someone from say Mexico illegally enters the US of A while pregnant and gives birth. Then returns to Mexico for however long and the kid can eventually go to the States and become President and for instance be fully supported and influenced by Mexico.

So really, it doesn't prevent what was suggested as its original reason by Spino.


Except he needs to live here for 14 permamnent years. Not to mention, Anchor babies are usually a last ditch effort to stay here.

[FactionHeir]

Doesn't seem difficult. He needs to get into the House/Senate/State Gov first anyway and work his way up.

[Strike For The South]

Doesn't seem difficult. He needs to get into the House/Senate/State Gov first anyway and work his way up.

Seems like a while for corn tortillas

[Don Corleone]

Not an issue for any but the most vitrolic. Personally, I think the natural-born citizen law doesn't make a lot of sense, but frankly, people from Europe who don't have paths to citizenship griping about not having the right to become president of this country rubs me a little the wrong way.

[Devastatin Dave]

You're right, its not a big deal....
So why hasn't Osama Bin Obama produce his birth certificate, explain how he traveld to Pakistan in the 80's when it was illegal for a US CITIZEN to travel there at that time, and why is the State of Hawaii withholding this important document....

But, he doesn't need to prove anything, he's the Messiah....

AND one more thing...
Ogabe Bin Hussien Obama is purposely trying to destroy the current ecnomic system along with the stock market in order for the populace of the United States to HAVE to become dependent on the government to a point where people can no longer be independent. We are watching the end of this country and all you :daisy: outside of our borders better enjoy it now, because when the crap hits the fan and there is no US to call on, you're going to be on your own. Allah Akbar :daisy:.... ;)

[Devastatin Dave]

You're right, its not a big deal....
So why hasn't Osama Bin Obama produce his birth certificate, explain how he traveld to Pakistan in the 80's when it was illegal for a US CITIZEN to travel there at that time, and why is the State of Hawaii withholding this important document....

But, he doesn't need to prove anything, he's the Messiah....

AND one more thing...
Ogabe Bin Hussien Obama is purposely trying to destroy the current ecnomic system along with the stock market in order for the populace of the United States to HAVE to become dependent on the government to a point where people can no longer be independent. We are watching the end of this country and all you :daisy: outside of our borders better enjoy it now, because when the crap hits the fan and there is no US to call on, you're going to be on your own. Allah Akbar :daisy:.... ;)

Oh, and I'm sure my posts will be deleted in the spirit of the future of the 1st Ammendment of the Constitution. God bless the UN...

[Strike For The South]

I heard you Dave :thumbsup:

[Husar]

So just because I like fairy tales and what if scenarios...

So what if the FSB sent a pregnant mother to the US, she has her baby there and then goes back to russia with her US citizen, raises him, there, he becomes a really great FSB agent and then he is sent back to the US, gets elected as president and provides his original birth certificate as well.
Now if we imagine the press would not be able to dig up his past in the FSB, how would that clause alone protect the US in that case?

And if the press detected his FSB past, would the clause really be needed or would people maybe, say, not elect him anyway?

Also Dave, I'll always love you, you can sleep on my couch when the **** hits the fan in your :daisy: country. ~:)

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

So what if the FSB sent a pregnant mother to the US, she has her baby there and then goes back to russia with her US citizen, raises him, there, he becomes a really great FSB agent and then he is sent back to the US, gets elected as president and provides his original birth certificate as well.
Now if we imagine the press would not be able to dig up his past in the FSB, how would that clause alone protect the US in that case?

The fourteen year residence clause, I believe, is still in effect.

[KukriKhan]

All ya gotta do is edit out the mf's, dude. You know that, after all these years.

My daughter was born at Tripler Army Medical Center, April 1979. Granted, that was 18 years later, but her certificate is about a third that size, and I don't remember it asking for or mentioning 'race'.

I'll dig it up, scan and provide, soonest. It's an old-ish memory of mine, and so maybe incorrect.

Why would they redact the certificate serial number? And where's the seal impression?

I'm pretty sure he's a valid citizen, and eligible for POTUS selection. Why the seeming subterfuge?

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

The resident clause seems a little silly these days. If you really want a president in your pocket, just buy them out. Or at least their staff...

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Racist? Do you even know what that word means?Racism is when one race is treated below another (to summarise it). Here one race, the people of the US, are being considered above another race, the people of other countries in the world. If not racist, it is certainly discriminatory.

Clearly the founding fathers did NOT want a situation where opportunistic international elitists or aristocratic 'blue bloods', wealthy foreign yahoos, foreign agents of a hostile power, etc. could somehow weasel their way into the system and make a mess of things.With all due respect to the founding fathers, they are admittedly a little outdated. That era has gone - I think in those days US elections were fairly closed to the vast majority of the public anyhow (a bunch of elite electors electing the president) allowing them to be more easily manipulated. It's an insult to the public to retain it today IMO, essentially telling them who they can and can't vote for. If they were attempting some sort of "coup" by getting themselves elected, then, with the intelligence and media we have today, it would be very difficult for news of this to stay behind closed doors and not reach the people.

~:)

[Banquo's Ghost]

Racism is when one race is treated below another (to summarise it). Here one race, the people of the US, are being considered above another race, the people of other countries in the world.

The peoples of the United States are not one race. They share a nationality. The law is not remotely racist or discriminatory, anymore than my government's refusal to grant Irish passports on demand, without restriction, to everyone from China.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Racism is when one race is treated below another (to summarise it). Here one race, the people of the US, are being considered above another race, the people of other countries in the world. If not racist, it is certainly discriminatory.

So you don't know what it means. :wall:

Like Banquo said, Americans are not a race. We're a nationality. Really, how could you think otherwise - white, black, hispanic, middle eastern, etc. people make up America.


With all due respect to the founding fathers, they are admittedly a little outdated. That era has gone - I think in those days US elections were fairly closed to the vast majority of the public anyhow (a bunch of elite electors electing the president) allowing them to be more easily manipulated.

What? You're just making this up, aren't you? The electors have always been selected democratically.


It's an insult to the public to retain it today IMO, essentially telling them who they can and can't vote for. If they were attempting some sort of "coup" by getting themselves elected, then, with the intelligence and media we have today, it would be very difficult for news of this to stay behind closed doors and not reach the people.

~:)

Is the bill of rights an insult to politicians and people who think they are smart enough to decide what rights we should have? Is the constitution an insult to people who think they know how to structure a government better?

CR

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

So you don't know what it means. :wall:

Like Banquo said, Americans are not a race. We're a nationality. Really, how could you think otherwise - white, black, hispanic, middle eastern, etc. people make up America.Xenophobic then - sorry, got my words mixed up :embarassed:
What? You're just making this up, aren't you? The electors have always been selected democratically.Sorry, it was a presumption :embarassed:
Is the bill of rights an insult to politicians and people who think they are smart enough to decide what rights we should have? Is the constitution an insult to people who think they know how to structure a government better?That's different. In an election anybody should be allowed to stand - whoever they are. The voter should have the final say on their electability. Likewise, the voter should have the ability to change the constitution at will. So, if enough people approve of its modification, then it should be allowed to go ahead.

I'm shutting up now - I think I've just proved that I need a dictionary and a book on US history ~:)

[LittleGrizzly]

because when the crap hits the fan and there is no US to call on, you're going to be on your own.

Well thank god for that, the collective populations of South America and the Middle East breathe a collective sigh of relief...

[Husar]

All ya gotta do is edit out the mf's, dude. You know that, after all these years.

Oh, sorry, I foolishly trusted dave to know the rules(after all the bans I expected him to :sweatdrop: ), guess I'm a bit naive now and then.

I don't know about relying on the US, it's not like the US actually does what we want them to do, instead they get into some mess in Iraq and then ask us for help. So who depends on who here is a bit more complex than some would like it to be.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Xenophobic then - sorry, got my words mixed up :embarassed:Sorry, it was a presumption :embarassed:That's different. In an election anybody should be allowed to stand - whoever they are. The voter should have the final say on their electability. Likewise, the voter should have the ability to change the constitution at will. So, if enough people approve of its modification, then it should be allowed to go ahead.

Geez, man, its not xenophobic either. We aren't afraid of foreigners. Must you always use such terms?

If the people want it changed, it can be through constitutional amendment. But no one cares.

CR

[Ironside]

Not an issue for any but the most vitrolic. Personally, I think the natural-born citizen law doesn't make a lot of sense, but frankly, people from Europe who don't have paths to citizenship griping about not having the right to become president of this country rubs me a little the wrong way.

That citizenship and resident for for 14 years sounds perfectly fair tbh.


Geez, man, its not xenophobic either. We aren't afraid of foreigners. Must you always use such terms?

If the people want it changed, it can be through constitutional amendment. But no one cares.

CR

Except some whacky right-wingers.
those complaining about it atm

I suspect that it will end up quite messy when changing it though. The amendment needs a large majority right? And one party will have a really good candidate at that point. So why vote in an opponent that will most likely win?

[Lemur]

Well, it seems that the birth certificate thing is going to be with us for some time (http://www.wnd.com/static/89837.html). At least nobody's talking about flag pins anymore. That really sickened me.

A U.S. soldier on active duty in Iraq has called President Obama an "impostor" in a statement in which he affirmed plans to join as plaintiff in a challenge to Obama's eligibility to be commander in chief.

The statement was publicized by California attorney Orly Taitz who, along with her Defend Our Freedom Foundation, is working on a series of legal cases seeking to uncover Obama's birth records and other documents that would reveal whether he meets the requirements of the U.S. Constitution.

"As an active-duty officer in the United States Army, I have grave concerns about the constitutional eligibility of Barack Hussein Obama to hold the office of president of the United States," wrote Scott Easterling in a "to-whom-it-may-concern" letter.

Obama "has absolutely refused to provide to the American public his original birth certificate, as well as other documents which may prove or disprove his eligibility," Easterling wrote. "In fact, he has fought every attempt made by concerned citizens in their effort to force him to do so."

Taitz told WND she had advised Easterling to obtain legal counsel before making any statements regarding the commander-in-chief, but he insisted on moving forward. His contention is that as an active member of the U.S. military, he is required to follow orders from a sitting president, and he needs – on pain of court-martial – to know that Obama is eligible.

[Vladimir]

Well, it seems that the birth certificate thing is going to be with us for some time (http://www.wnd.com/static/89837.html). At least nobody's talking about flag pins anymore. That really sickened me.


I thought you guys loved cheese. This is as "around" as the stench of a gym bag.

[Papewaio]

Can I move to Sweden and become king? Just asking.

Do you own your own gym?

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25103998-23109,00.html

CROWN Princess Victoria, the next in line to Sweden's throne, has become engaged to her long-standing boyfriend, a 35-year-old gym owner, the Swedish royal court.

Reports that Victoria, 31, and her boyfriend, Daniel Westling, would marry have circulated for several years. The court said the royal wedding was planned for next year.

[Major Robert Dump]

That army officer in iraq is treading on thin ice.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

That army officer in iraq is treading on thin ice.

Indeed. Not exactly the move you'd want to make were you an O3 looking for that oak leaf.


The only folks who seem to take this seriously are the whackier fringe as represented on the Michael Savage radio program (http://michaelsavage.wnd.com/). The really whackoid fringe listens to Art Bell replays (http://www.artbell.net/)and doesn't concern itself with Obama's birth certificate -- they already "know" that all of Western Civilization is a conspiracy of the elite.

[KukriKhan]

For "Compare and Contrast" purposes, here is my little Sarah's Birth Certificate, front and back:

https://jimcee.homestead.com/3FrontSrarBCer.jpg

https://jimcee.homestead.com/2saraBcertBack.jpg

Eighteen years later (after Mr. Obama's birth) no mention of race, validating stamp clearly visible, about one-third the size, and more details on the parents.

Did the county of Honolulu have a change of heart in the 70's and stop noting "race"? Maybe.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So, what are YOU expecting for Christmas?

I mean now that you've outed your dear Sarah as turning 30 for an international audience! :devilish:

[KukriKhan]

So, what are YOU expecting for Christmas?

I mean now that you've outed your dear Sarah as turning 30 for an international audience! :devilish:

Hehe. Good thing she doesn't visit here.

I listened to that Michael Savage guy on the radio yesterday, and he had a fella on (a Pennsylvania Democrat) who alleges (in court) that the POTUS was born in Kenya, became adopted by his Mom's second Hubby, and therefore became a both de-facto and de-jure naturalized citizen of Indonesia, and that he (Obama) applied for and received US Federal and State financial assistance as a foreign student for his California Uni days. This Penn Dem also says that Obama's school records, application, grades, transcripts and diploma's have been blocked from access to the public.

That's a pretty tall set of charges. But pretty easily cleared up with 3-4 documents.

So, what if he's NOT a natural-born citizen? Biden becomes POTUS, and he appoints Hillary as VP? And riots in the streets?

-edit-
The other funny thing about POTUS' birth Certificate is the edition/revision version note:

https://jimcee.homestead.com/BOcertRev.jpg

bottom left of the cert. If it's "Revision date 11/01", it's not the actual certificate, but an extract.

[Devastatin Dave]

Interesting... Amazing how the national media could care less. i guess when its not one of their faked documents there's nothing to report...

[Lemur]

Well, my birth certificate was lost sometime when I was a kid, so I had to send away to Iowa City to get a dupe. I gotta say, the document they sent was not impressive. Size of an index card, looks like it would take about three minutes to counterfeit.

Why can't people who have doubts about Obama's citizenship just direct their queries to the appropriate official in Hawaii? Surely something could be worked out that would satisfy all but the triple-layer tinfoil hat crowd ...


For "Compare and Contrast" purposes, here is my little Sarah's Birth Certificate, front and back:

[...]

Eighteen years later (after Mr. Obama's birth) no mention of race, validating stamp clearly visible, about one-third the size, and more details on the parents.

Did the county of Honolulu have a change of heart in the 70's and stop noting "race"? Maybe.
Lots of BCs mentioned race back in the day. I'm surprised you find it surprising; race was a big deal for a long time.

The meaningful comparison would be a BC from Hawaii from the same year. I don't understand how a BC from a different state almost two decades later is supposed to shed light on this.

-edit-

FactCheck.org, a group that has yet to be convincingly accused of being partisan shills, have this to say (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html):


FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship. Claims that the document lacks a raised seal or a signature are false. We have posted high-resolution photographs of the document as "supporting documents" to this article. Our conclusion: Obama was born in the U.S.A. just as he has always said.

Update, Nov. 1: The director of Hawaii’s Department of Health confirmed Oct. 31 that Obama was born in Honolulu.

DevDave, Kukri, your response?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The meaningful comparison would be a BC from Hawaii from the same year. I don't understand how a BC from a different state almost two decades later is supposed to shed light on this.

Lemur: Kukri's daughter's cert is a Hawaiin birth certificate, though you are correct as to its recency vis-a-vis Obama's.

[Lemur]

Quite right, Seamus, my bad. Sorry about that.

The rest of my post still stands, however. I want to hear from DevDave about how Obaam's thugs have subverted the Hawaii Department of Health and how the documents handled by FactCheck.org are really bewitching imps sent by Satan to protect his only son.

[KukriKhan]

The State File Number thingee checks out: Obama = 151 1961 - 010641, my Sarah = 151 79 004341, '151' being the type of file (Birth Certificate), 1961 and 79 being the years of birth, then a 6-digit serial number.

I'm satisfied. Thanks for the linkage Lemur. My last question: did he ever file for or receive tuition assistance or any other government aid as a "foreign" student? A solid "No" to that will put my mind at rest that our soldiers aren't taking orders from a poser.

My final, final objection is: he's left-handed (so is McCain), and as my nuns taught me, 'tis the hand of the devil. Everybody knows that. :laugh4::laugh4:

[Devastatin Dave]

Quite right, Seamus, my bad. Sorry about that.

The rest of my post still stands, however. I want to hear from DevDave about how Obaam's thugs have subverted the Hawaii Department of Health and how the documents handled by FactCheck.org are really bewitching imps sent by Satan to protect his only son.
Most government agencies, especially DOH's of states are saturated with lefties. You should see all the commie govey ***** that work where I work. Look at Joe the plumber, how quickly did all those government employees to get the goods on Joe.
Why not release the document? What was Obama's grades in college? Why do we have access to this information for every person that has run for president (well, Kerry didn't release his medical records from Nam because I guess it would be embarassing if everyone found out his worst wound was bits of rice stuck in his ***) except for Obama? Why has the mainstream media turned a complete blind eye to it....

[Strike For The South]

Look at the caption.

I'm getting my news from US weekly.

And boom goes the dynamite (http://www.usmagazine.com/news/octo-mom-to-lose-house-march-2009232)

Oh and ACORN

Civil Disobedience because you can't pay your bills (http://wjz.com/local/acorn.foreclosure.2.939119.html)

These bloody :daisy: are making the country go :daisy: up they are.

Simply giving DD some ammo

[Lemur]

My last question: did he ever file for or receive tuition assistance or any other government aid as a "foreign" student?
How on earth would you go about looking that sort of thing up? It seems almost impossible to disprove. Can you prove that you didn't get tuition assistance? Can you really prove it, with a paper trail that would convince the tinfoil-hat crowd?

I know for a fact that DevDave would howl "Forgery!" at my junky little Iowa birth certificate, yet it's the plain truth that I was born in Iowa. I know that I never received any tuition assistance as a foreign student, but darned if I know how I could prove it to you.

[Captain Fishpants]

One question occurred to me, regardless of any others about Mr Obama's or Mr McCain's qualifications to be President, and I ask this as a disinterested observer of American politics.

The text of the constitution states: "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President..." (emphasis added). That's pretty clear, but what does "natural" mean in this context?

So what's the position with, say, Cesarean section births? This is a not uncommon procedure, but arguably not "natural" given that it has a major surgical intervention. Would a future candidate who had been born as a result of in vitro fertilization be eligible? Would -- looking even further ahead, but this isn't an impossibilty within our lifetimes -- a candidate birthed from an artificial womb be eligible?

I'm interested to here what the Org's resident Constitutional experts might think.

Thanks.

[Spino]

One question occurred to me, regardless of any others about Mr Obama's or Mr McCain's qualifications to be President, and I ask this as a disinterested observer of American politics.

The text of the constitution states: "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President..." (emphasis added). That's pretty clear, but what does "natural" mean in this context?

So what's the position with, say, Cesarean section births? This is a not uncommon procedure, but arguably not "natural" given that it has a major surgical intervention. Would a future candidate who had been born as a result of in vitro fertilization be eligible? Would -- looking even further ahead, but this isn't an impossibilty within our lifetimes -- a candidate birthed from an artificial womb be eligible?

I'm interested to here what the Org's resident Constitutional experts might think.

Thanks.

Tragically Pindar, our former expert in all things related to US law, has dropped off the face of the Earth. That means you'll have to settle for our typically ill informed responses... lucky you.

Natural born may not be strictly defined by the Constitution but the implied meaning is that you must be born in the US or any of its territories or properties legally recognized as being sovereign US territory (i.e. embassies, military bases, etc.). I believe there was a Supreme court decision during the 19th century that dealt with the issue of citizenship and helped to establish a widely accepted legal definition of 'natural born'.

Are you being serious? They knew about C-section births back then and had they taken legal exception to them for the purpose of determining eligibility they would have mentioned it in more concise language. 'Natural born' was simply a straightforward legal means of saying 'born & raised locally'. Whether an individual is born by natural childbirth, c-section, test tube, cloning lab, etc. is, Constitutionally speaking, irrelevant.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

John Jay was responsible for the inclusion of the phrase. His original note underlined the word "born." I think it is therefore clear that the emphasis was to be on someone who had been born on U.S. soil. If anything, I think the addition of the adjective "natural" was a) added for literary effect, or b) intended to "head off" any "unnatural" efforts to be a U.S. citizen, such as a Canadian family rolling the mother in labor across the border expressly to achieve citizenship. I think a) is the most likely answer.

[Subotan]

Likewise, considering as McCain was born inside the Panama Canal Zone, he too was actually ineligible to become President.


BRINGING DOWN THE LIES (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/28/politics/main3977521.shtml)


That is about as true as saying that Obama was ineligible, as SFTS pointed out. An interesting election however, where the main two candidates were not from the mainland United States.

EDIT: And the "natural born citizen" clause makes perfect sense. If I was to move to America now, acquire citizenship, and eventually run for President and win the Presidency, I would have a difficult time - even subconsciously - making difficult decisions about Germany. It does make sense.

My bad. When I last heard an update about that, it was being called into dispute.

[Lemur]

I see that claiming President Obama was not born in the U.S.A. gets a big round of applause at CPAC (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqZLpVXY1fw).

[Devastatin Dave]

Here's something to infuriate my Baby Lemur...


I have a gut feeling Obambi killed his Grandmother... I can just imagine his skinny ass stradeling his "typical white woman" grandmother with a pillow over her face whiel yelling at her, "You ain't sayin' **** to nobody...!!!" And the whole time, Rohm Emanual is holding Hussien's latte saying, "This will definitely get some sympathy votes!!!" How's that?:2thumbsup:

[Captain Fishpants]

Tragically Pindar, our former expert in all things related to US law, has dropped off the face of the Earth. That means you'll have to settle for our typically ill informed responses... lucky you.

Natural born may not be strictly defined by the Constitution but the implied meaning is that you must be born in the US or any of its territories or properties legally recognized as being sovereign US territory (i.e. embassies, military bases, etc.). I believe there was a Supreme court decision during the 19th century that dealt with the issue of citizenship and helped to establish a widely accepted legal definition of 'natural born'.

Are you being serious? They knew about C-section births back then and had they taken legal exception to them for the purpose of determining eligibility they would have mentioned it in more concise language. 'Natural born' was simply a straightforward legal means of saying 'born & raised locally'. Whether an individual is born by natural childbirth, c-section, test tube, cloning lab, etc. is, Constitutionally speaking, irrelevant.

Thanks for that.

I can see the argument for "sovereign territory" being perfectly understandable, as this would also included ships at sea in international waters. I also understand the arguments about both parents having US nationality.

But I wasn't being deliberately obtuse in asking for a definition of "natural" in this context. C-sections were performed in the C18th Century, often with very tragic consequences for the mother. And can you imagine having that done without benefit of modern pain control? Eeek!

Back to the point: "natural" and "artificial" had quite different connotations in the C18th Century mind, and is it worth bearing this in mind when looking at documents from that period?

I'm also aware that some modern lawyers are quite able to argue about any obscure point if it advances their case. If the losing party in an election thought it could overturn a close result by crying foul because the president was not "of woman born" (to quote Shakespeare in Macbeth), would it stand up in court?

This entire - and trivial, I admit - side issue could be settled if anyone knows whether or not any of the 44 presidents was a C-section baby.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...But I wasn't being deliberately obtuse in asking for a definition of "natural" in this context. C-sections were performed in the C18th Century, often with very tragic consequences for the mother. And can you imagine having that done without benefit of modern pain control? Eeek! ...

True, but such procedures were as or more likely to be performed when the mother was already dead/dying to save the child if possible. I agree, post-operative pain must have been horrific for those who were recovering from such a procedure.

[KukriKhan]

Bill Clinton entered this mortal coil via C-section. LINK (http://books.google.com/books?id=8M6yE_2xK5MC&pg=PA415&lpg=PA415&dq=presidential+caesarean+section&source=bl&ots=7-Arytskjf&sig=Jqa1i7VL4gJvLdpOuxd_hMaPViE&hl=en&ei=EeKnSbDYJ5DUnQfPjpXfDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result)

So that seems settled. But I take your point about the way forward, regarding "natural born" and how it may apply to IVF & arty wombs. Probably, when it comes up, our Supreme Court will decide. We're generally loathe to change our (US) Constitution*, and make the procedure unwieldy on purpose.

*Unlike the state of california, where yearly amendments, voted by a 50% majority, get tacked on willy-nilly, making its navigation and guidance a lawyer's dream, and a citizen's nightmare.

[Devastatin Dave]

List of Obama's hidden documents.

Indonesian Passport – Not released
Application for U.S. Citizenship (as former citizen of Indonesia) – Not released
Immigration Records – Not released
Original Vault Copy Birth Certificate – Not released
Certificate of Live Birth – Counterfeit Version on Obama Web Site
Obama / Dunham Marriage License – Not released
Soetoro / Dunham Marriage License – Not released
Soetoro Adoption Records – Not Released
Fransiskus Assisi School Application – Not released
Punahou School Records – Not released
Selective Service Registration – Counterfeit version generated
Occidental College records – Not released
Columbia College Records – Not released
Columbia Thesis – Not released
Harvard College Records – Not released
Baptism Certificate – None
Medical Records – Not released
Illinois State Senate Records – Not released
Law Practice Client List – Not released
University of Chicago Scholarly Articles – None

[Major Robert Dump]

Well now he's president and he can keep them sealed for "national security reasons." I heard he was at Cheney's energy meetings, too.

[Subotan]

Selective Service Registration – Counterfeit version generated

[Citation Needed]
Did you demand the equivalent amount of stuff when George W., or even any of the previous Presidents were elected?

[Major Robert Dump]

Well, no, but Bush only left the country as a young man to get cocaine from Mexico.

I don't think the demands are unjustified considering the nationality and travel patterns of his parents, and also the foreign-student thing. But I do think they are coming a little late.

If he did in fact do this foreign student thing, it may not be because he was actually a foreigner but because he was trying to milk the tit and get better tuition rates and scholarships. Or maybe in the end we will all find out that he is really Chinese.

[Lemur]

I see the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" has gone out the window, much less "innocent until you have some sort of evidence for something."

Going with the Obama Bilked the System as a Fake Foreign Student theme, I hear that Major Robert Dump made money by selling rabies-infected syringes to childrens' hospitals. Go ahead, prove you didn't, I dare you.

And I read somewhere that Devastatin Dave sacrificed an adorable kitten to Satan. Please prove that you never did, Dave.

[Major Robert Dump]

Hey I'm just tossing out ideas, not making accusations. All of this should have been dealt with conclusively (some say it was some say not) when he filed to run and during the campaign. The fact that it was barely touched by McCain tells me either they didn't think it would wash or that McCain was an immigrant, too.

I do think academic records in general, like grades, are a little too much to ask for because those records are yours to decide who to release, too. If its such a big thing they just need to legislate standard, clear, concise eligibility practices like companies do with hiring practices.

I also dare say that the system, particularly human resource type government offices, are very fallible, make plenty of mistakes, have a history of poor record keeping and so forth or we wouldnt have social security going to dead people and the SSA wouldn't have decided to change my name 10 years ago, which by the way, I eventually gave up on trying to get fixed. I could only imagine running for office and someone claiming that I was not the person on the certificate, it would happen eventually. That's politics.

And babies shouldnt be doing heroin anyway, Lemur, so if they get rabies from the needls its because of their own reckless behavior

[KukriKhan]

Boy, Howdy, you got that right, MRD. The year I was drafted, it turns out the local Sel Svc Branch had transposed my birthdate from 31 December to 13 December, and turned 'Patrick', my middle name into: 'Partick'. The clerical errors didn't stop my induction (even tho' I was selected cuz 13 Dec was #9 in that lottery, while 31 Dec was #363, and not called); it took two years and several documents to change my date of birth, and I was saddled with "Partick" my entire career, even on my dog-tags.:laugh4:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Boy, Howdy, you got that right, MRD. The year I was drafted, it turns out the local Sel Svc Branch had transposed my birthdate from 31 December to 13 December, and turned 'Patrick', my middle name into: 'Partick'. The clerical errors didn't stop my induction (even tho' I was selected cuz 13 Dec was #9 in that lottery, while 31 Dec was #363, and not called); it took two years and several documents to change my date of birth, and I was saddled with "Partick" my entire career, even on my dog-tags.:laugh4:

If the Army had wanted you to keep your own name and DOB they would have issued them to you!

[Devastatin Dave]

And I read somewhere that Devastatin Dave sacrificed an adorable kitten to Satan. Please prove that you never did, Dave.

Uhh, ummm, Hope and Change? :laugh4:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Boy, Howdy, you got that right, MRD. The year I was drafted, it turns out the local Sel Svc Branch had transposed my birthdate from 31 December to 13 December, and turned 'Patrick', my middle name into: 'Partick'. The clerical errors didn't stop my induction (even tho' I was selected cuz 13 Dec was #9 in that lottery, while 31 Dec was #363, and not called); it took two years and several documents to change my date of birth, and I was saddled with "Partick" my entire career, even on my dog-tags.:laugh4:

This seems an extreme version of "If those trousers are too short you'll just have to be shorter" thinking.

Which is both horrifying, and awsome.

[Major Robert Dump]

The SSA reversed my first and middle name. I figured no prob since the actual SS# is still the same. Hell, the Army and previous employers didn't even have a problem with it, but that's because they didn't notice.

My first issue ever with this was getting my drivers license renewed. They said my BC didn't match my license so I couldn't do it. Screw that. went to another tag agency, same thing. Went to another, picked the oldest clerk with the thickest glasses and told jokes and kept her luaghing the whole time and she either didn't notice or didn't care. I am a criminal.

[Lemur]

Politico has a decent article (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0209/19450.html) about the "Birthers," as they're coming to be known. DevDave is a Birther!


Viewed as irrelevant by the White House, and as embarrassing by much of the Republican Party, the subculture still thrives from the conservative website WorldNetDaily, which claims that some 300,000 people have signed a petition demanding more information on Obama's birth, to Cullman, Alabama, where Sen. Richard Shelby took a question on the subject at a town hall meeting last week.

Their confinement to the fringe hasn't cooled the passion of believers; the obscure New York preacher James Manning turned up at a National Press Club session in December to declare the president "the most notorious criminal in the history not just of America, but of this entire planet."

A quick reality check, before we dive in: The challenges to Obama's eligibility have no grounding in evidence. Courts across the country have summarily rejected the movement's theory — that Obama can't be a citizen because his father wasn't —as a misreading of U.S. law; and Hawaii officials, along with contemporary birth announcements, affirm that Obama was in fact born in Honolulu in 1961.

But belief in obscure, discredited theories is a constant in a country with a history of partisan division — a country in which, a recent survey showed, 34 percent of the public believes in UFOs and 24 percent believes in witches.

Nice to see, however, that some of the conservative chattering class gets how dangerous this is for the Repubs.


The conservative talk show host Michael Medved recently referred to the movement's leaders as "crazy, nutburger, demagogue, money-hungry, exploitative, irresponsible, filthy conservative imposters" who are "the worst enemy of the conservative movement."

"It makes us look weird. It makes us look crazy. It makes us look demented. It makes us look sick, troubled, and not suitable for civilized company," he mourned.

[Subotan]

24 percent believes in witches.

Lawl.

Oh wait, that's not funny is it? O.-

[LittleGrizzly]

I would say the 34% for UFO's isn't too bad... depending on how they put the question and what the yes's meant.

I believe in Aliens... I believe there are flying objects we can't identify.... I don't believe UFO's regularly come in and out of Earth as shown in numerous youtube videos...

The witch one is less answerable.... i suppose one or two people could be thinking of something similar to a herbal medicene person. Ok bit of a crappy argument but one or two people may have meant that...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Why would one not believe in witches? They're not numerous of course, and when not doing their "sky-clad" bit they're not all that noticeable, but why would one not believe in them? ~:confused: It'd be like disbelieving in Democrats. I don't truly understand their beliefs or agree (the democrats that is), but I don't presume they're fictional.

~;)

[Don Corleone]

To Seamus's point, I live near Salem, Mass, a haven for modern witches, aka Wiccans. Trust me, metaphysical powers or no, witches do in fact exist. Now, saying you believe they actually have supernatural powers...

[Slyspy]

"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President"

Can somebody explain to me what this actually means?

[Don Corleone]

If you weren't a citizen as of the time of the signing of the Constitution, you had to be born here in order to be voted in as president. A good portion of the population at the time of the signing came from overseas (Alexander Hamilton, as one example).

So, I've heard a few glib answers implying an answer, but I'm curious... can an American actually become a citizen of Sweden? Of Germany? Of the Netherlands?

It's been my experience that unless your company sends for you, as an American you cannot even get work visas in most Western countries, let alone pick up a passport.

I was always under the impression that should the inevitable affront come to pass (like a consitutional ammendment banning football on Sunday) and I had to leave behind my homeland, my only hope in the West was Canada. Otherwise, I had to go 3rd world.

And is there a reason Europeans and Australians are so anti-American in their immigration policies?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

So, I've heard a few glib answers implying an answer, but I'm curious... can an American actually become a citizen of Sweden? Of Germany? Of the Netherlands?

You can gain German citizenship if you are:

1) Born in Germany (I think it still depends on your parentage, at least partially, and you need to reapply to retain it if your parents are not German).
2) Various cases of descent from a German.
3) Naturalisation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Naturalisation_as_a_German_citizen)


And is there a reason Europeans and Australians are so anti-American in their immigration policies?

If we are, it's probably because we're anti-American in every other way as well. :book:

[Don Corleone]

If we are, it's probably because we're anti-American in every other way as well. :book:

Sorry, if that came off as a bit thin-skinned on my part, I apologize. I more meant to wonder out loud if it isn't a vestige from a time when Americans were viewed in the same light as Indians are today (educated, hard working, and taking away jobs that ought to belong to natural born citizens). No offense to Indians, it's just jingoism, and especially in hard economic times, its the way the world works.

It's my impression, and in it I may be wrong, that a lot of European countries have provisions that Americans cannot seek work in their countries unless an employer sent for them. For example, I couldn't get a work visa, move to Munich and hope for the best, pushing my resume. The only way I could go work in Munich would be for Rohde & Schwarz or BMW to hire me, then bring me over.

If I'm mistaken in this, please correct me.

[Ironside]

So, I've heard a few glib answers implying an answer, but I'm curious... can an American actually become a citizen of Sweden? Of Germany? Of the Netherlands?


US is the 14:th most common nationality in Sweden (8262 heads, beaten by the neightbours, UK, Ger, imported wives (aka Thailand) and refugee countries) and 344 US citizens got Swedish citizenship in 2007. No more recent stats. :juggle:

By comparation, Denmark had 38443 residents (Third most common) and 388 citizens that got Swedish citizenship in 2007.

It's a totally obvious bias towards not giving Americans Swedish citizenship, thier number are much lower than the Iraqis. :book:

Courtesy of Statistiska Centralbyrån (Central Bureau of Statistiscs).

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Sorry, if that came off as a bit thin-skinned on my part, I apologize.

I wasn't being sarcastic. I have no idea on our immigration policies to Americans, but if they were actually anti-American, I'm not sure how surprised I'd be, considering how anti-American a lot of people tend to be. I think that anti-Americanism gets under my skin more than it does for most Americans.

[Furunculus]

agreed, it seems so........... facile.

[Meneldil]

To Seamus's point, I live near Salem, Mass, a haven for modern witches, aka Wiccans. Trust me, metaphysical powers or no, witches do in fact exist. Now, saying you believe they actually have supernatural powers...

That might explain the surprisingly high number of goth-looking people I saw when I visited Salem. I'd have been quite willing to be witch-ed by some of them and to show them my occult powers. :yes:


If I'm mistaken in this, please correct me.
Well, as far as I know, conditions to become a french citizens are the same for everyone.
According to the French ambassy in the US, there are between 100k and 200k americans living in France, though I don't know if it only takes into account americans without a french citizenship.

That's not a whole lot (furthermore, other estimates I found range from 29k to 110k :shame: ), but still, I'm not sure we have anti-american immigration policies. I rather think we have anti-immigration immigration policies, but that's another problem.

[Xiahou]

Why would one not believe in witches? They're not numerous of course, and when not doing their "sky-clad" bit they're not all that noticeable, but why would one not believe in them? ~:confused: It'd be like disbelieving in Democrats. I don't truly understand their beliefs or agree (the democrats that is), but I don't presume they're fictional.

~;)I'm sure the author's point was that it's amazing that 76% of the population doesn't believe in witches. Just poor wording on his part. :wink:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You know, if you think about (given that America is such a religious country) that is a pretty low percentage belief in witches.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

You know, if you think about (given that America is such a religious country) that is a pretty low percentage belief in witches.

We were blessed with a lot of timber and never needed them as substitute firewood. Our witch-hunts ended in hangings.

[Adrian II]

24 percent believes in witches:stunned:

[LittleGrizzly]

I would be surprised if i found out we had specifically anti american immigration policy....

If your inside the EU i now you have priority but i think anyone outside that who isn't fleeing persucution gets treated the same. I don't see why the UK would choose an Austrailian over an American immigrant...

Wouldn't it actually count as racist (or some other bad word) to have immigrants from one specific country (US) barred over any others ?

I would seriously doubt any euro country has specific anti american immigration policy...

[Lemur]

Oh, that's the least of it, Adrian. Apparently we rank slightly above Turkey in terms of public acceptance of evolutionary theory. Which is insane, since all of modern biology is based on it. Our entire medial industry and pharmaceutical industry would not exist if not for Darwin's theory. But what can I say? My nation is slightly insane, which is why I love it.


https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Lemurmania/Darwin.jpg

[Strike For The South]

That's more than slightly.

[Don Corleone]

Biblical literalists... :dizzy2::dizzy2::dizzy2: So, I guess when we die, we're all going to go live inside a mustard seed.

[LittleGrizzly]

As best as i can tell from that graph it seems be a dead heat between the evolutionists and the anti evolutionists...

Im just pleasently surprised to see UK so far up the list...

[KukriKhan]

Just to speak the unspeakable: folks would be OK with evolution, and in fact they are; evolutionary theory pervades the popular conscientiousness (pun intended), every "Bubba" understands mutation for advantage, survival of the fittest, natural selection, breeding for advantage... the same as they understand and believe in nuclear theory, String Theory, and Chaos Theory...

it's the chimp thingee, that kills it. Mamma won't tolerate the concept that today's humans - and by extension, her kids - are even remotely connected to hairy apes, so Bubba doesn't either, in solidarity.

Wanna sell evolution? Drop the monkeys.

The connection is spurious, anyway.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Just to speak the unspeakable: folks would be OK with evolution, and in fact they are; evolutionary theory pervades the popular conscientiousness (pun intended), every "Bubba" understands mutation for advantage, survival of the fittest, natural selection, breeding for advantage... the same as they understand and believe in nuclear theory, String Theory, and Chaos Theory...

it's the chimp thingee, that kills it. Mamma won't tolerate the concept that today's humans - and by extension, her kids - are even remotely connected to hairy apes, so Bubba doesn't either, in solidarity.

Wanna sell evolution? Drop the monkeys.

The connection is spurious, anyway.


You know, Kukri, I think that's the best precis of the opposed attitude I've heard yet. You're quite right that the number of bible literalists is comparatively small. This is as good an explanation of the attitude behind those with reservations regarding evolution as I have heard

[Banquo's Ghost]

Wanna sell evolution? Drop the monkeys.

The connection is spurious, anyway.

You jest, surely? :inquisitive:

Are you arguing that every other species evolved, but somehow human beings just popped into existence?

There's no need to "sell" evolution. If a substantial part of any population wishes to eschew science in favour of superstition, it's their right. However, there are consequences for progress.

[Adrian II]

Wanna sell evolution? Drop the monkeys.Wanna sell God? Drop the Bible. It's source is spurious anyway. :laugh3:

[Lemur]

Wanna sell evolution? Drop the monkeys.
I'm with Banquo on this one. We do share a common ancestor with the other great apes, and our genes are 98% chimp. That's not a new soda that needs to be "sold," that's the truth. We also share a common ancestor with lungfish, wombats and the duck-billed platypus. You just have to go back a lot further.

This is a (relatively) free country, and people are free to reject the theory of gravity, the theory of atomic physics and the second law of thermodynamics, if they choose. There's no thought police to force them into thinking something they don't like.

However, if they choose to disbelieve evolutionary theory because they can't stand the thought of monkeys impinging on their specialness, they ought to stop using modern medicine, if only for consistency's sake.

[Whacker]

Going along with the current theme, I also had a mistake on my previous driver's license. The clerk somehow managed to tack and "e" onto the end of my middle name. It took my birth certificate, passport, and a minor act of god(s) to get that changed.

Adding to the rumor pile, I read that Xiahou is really a staunch liberal and has a small personal shrine to Saint Obama that he prays at daily.

:balloon2:

[KukriKhan]

You jest, surely? :inquisitive:

I (try to) explain, surely. And why ya callin' me 'Shirley'? :)


Wanna sell God? Drop the Bible. It's source is spurious anyway.

I've read people argue that the Catholics have done just that. :wink:


We do share a common ancestor with the other great apes, and our genes are 98% chimp. That's not a new soda that needs to be "sold," that's the truth.

Funny, that sounds as absolutely, positively, unargueably... certain, as the other side.

[Lemur]

Funny, that sounds as absolutely, positively, unargueably... certain, as the other side.
Well, why don't you phone me up the moment the "other side" can reproduce their results and test their hypotheses. Faith is fundamentally different from testing and observation.

Indulge in false equivalences much?

[KukriKhan]

So, you think the observation that both sides write/utter: "that's the truth" with the same degree of iron-clad certainty... is indulgent? And false?

My posit is that it is that unwarranted certainty that stands in the way of a more complete understanding by all of how things work in the universe.

Once the camps have been established; "They are a buncha hayseeds, clinging to an ancient fairytale." v "They are a buncha infidels, who's beliefs threaten the souls of my children.", the chance for meaningful communication reduces to near-null.

And apparently, we like it just like that. It frustrates me.

[Lemur]

It seems I misunderstood the intent of your post, Kukri, for which I am sorry. I think there is plenty of common ground between a belief in God and an understanding of evolution. Point of fact, I don't see any conflict, and there are plenty of biologists who attend church, and plenty of Christian sects that have made peace with Darwin. Yes, there are jerk scientists and idiot atheists who belittle people of faith (*cough* Dawkins *cough*), but they are a tiny minority. Most rational people do not experience cognitive dissonance when simultaneously accepting that we evolved and contemplating an all-knowing, all-powerful God.

IMHO, the irrational conflict largely comes from Biblical literalists and (worse) believers in Biblical inerrancy. You have to admit that these are frustrating people, and there are more of them than I would like. What makes me extra-bonus crazy with them is how selective they are in their literalism. World in seven days? Check. Death to teh gayzorz? Check. But the thousands of other rules, statements and assertions in the Bible, many of which contradict each other? Can't be bothered.

Biblical literalists selectively apply their strictures, using them to prop up attitudes and mores that are tribal in origin, not divine. It's quite similar to female circumcision and legal wife-beating in the more backward Islamic countries. Declare that your holy text is inerrant, then pick out the bits that fit your way of life so that they are beyond question or debate.

Anyway, I'm wandering a bit here. Back to point: Most people do not see a conflict between careful observation of the natural world and a belief in God. The two should be complimentary, if anything.

[Devastatin Dave]

My, how this thread has "evolved"!!! Funny really, when you think about it; appearantly we all evolved from monkeys except my president because that would be deemed racist by BG, I would recieve a warning, and the thread would be closed!!!:laugh4:

[Lemur]

We all feel tremendous sympathy for the injustice that you aren't allowed to make monkey jokes about black men, DevDave. Sometimes life is just unfair.

When a thread drifts off-topic, you can always count on Missouri (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0309/Missouri_Republicans_push_birth_certificate_questions_to_oppose_tyranny.html?showall) to bring it back:


Missouri Republicans push birth certificate questions to oppose 'tyranny'

Fifteen Republican members of the Missouri General Assembly have signed on to a state constitutional amendment (http://www.house.mo.gov/billtracking/bills091/biltxt/intro/HJR0034I.htm) that appears aimed at advancing the claims of the fringe movement that doubts President Barack Obama's eligibility to serve as president.

The language is contained in a proposed "voter’s bill of rights," which would serve "as a defense against corruption, fraud, and tyranny."

The proposed amendment states:


For candidates who are required by the Constitution of the United States to be natural born citizens, the secretary of state shall request an official copy of the candidate’s birth certificate. Other certifications, such as a certificate of live birth, shall not be accepted. Should any candidate fail to provide an official birth certificate within thirty days of the request by the secretary of state, his or her name shall not be placed on the ballot.

The Birthers, as they're known, have focused on the State of Hawaii's refusal to release the original of Obama's birth certificate, as opposed to official copies; Hawaii state law bars the release of the original.

[Ironside]

Lemur, do you have any guesss on what would happen if the official copy had an uhm fiery "accident" (or a real accident, but that's not as funny)? Would say Republicans from Missouri end up as unelegible to become president?


Just to speak the unspeakable: folks would be OK with evolution, and in fact they are; evolutionary theory pervades the popular conscientiousness (pun intended), every "Bubba" understands mutation for advantage, survival of the fittest, natural selection, breeding for advantage... the same as they understand and believe in nuclear theory, String Theory, and Chaos Theory...

it's the chimp thingee, that kills it. Mamma won't tolerate the concept that today's humans - and by extension, her kids - are even remotely connected to hairy apes, so Bubba doesn't either, in solidarity.

Wanna sell evolution? Drop the monkeys.

The connection is spurious, anyway.

The Orgah Theater presents: The monkey argument, (Due to budget shortage, it is the very short overdramatic version.

Darwin: Humans and apes may had a common ancestor as the similarties are considerble.

The opponents: Darwin is a monkey, Darwin is a monkey.

Not only that dropping the subject is very unscientiffic, it's also quite hard when your opponent is the one bringing it up and parodying it. Basically dropping the subject is the same as never talk about the origin of humanity in a scientiffic content ever again.

[Lemur]

Lemur, do you have any guesss on what would happen if the official copy had an uhm fiery "accident" (or a real accident, but that's not as funny)? Would say Republicans from Missouri end up as unelegible to become president?
As I stated earlier in the thread, my BC was lost when I was a kid. All I have is a little certificate from the State of Iowa. Certainly wouldn't convince the Birthers of anything. Apparently even if the appropriate government official from Iowa testified that I was, in fact, born there, it wouldn't be enough.

It really is ridiculous. There are birth announcements from the Hawaii papers from 1961. There's a Certificate of Live Birth from Hawaii. The health secretary of Hawaii has certified that BHO was born in her state in 1961. It's just kind of mind-numbing that people are clinging to this.

-edit-

Here's a little bonus (http://www.thechurning.com/misc/nokintoamonkey.mp3) for Kukri.

[Whacker]

Some people have nothing better to do.

[Subotan]

Lemur, do you have any guesss on what would happen if the official copy had an uhm fiery "accident" (or a real accident, but that's not as funny)? Would say Republicans from Missouri end up as unelegible to become president?



The Orgah Theater presents: The monkey argument, (Due to budget shortage, it is the very short overdramatic version.

Darwin: Humans and apes may had a common ancestor as the similarties are considerble.

The opponents: Darwin is a monkey, Darwin is a monkey.

Not only that dropping the subject is very unscientiffic, it's also quite hard when your opponent is the one bringing it up and parodying it. Basically dropping the subject is the same as never talk about the origin of humanity in a scientiffic content ever again.

ARGUMENT FROM MONKEYS
(1) If man came from monkeys, there shouldn't be any more monkeys.
(2) There are still monkeys.
(3) Therefore, God Exists.

[KarlXII]

Can I move to Sweden and become king? Just asking.

There's a fair difference between a Monarch born into the position and an elected official.