Hoplitai and 0.2 density

[Zett]

I want to know your opinion about that topic. Would you like to see Hoplites with low density to present their way of fighting better? And which units should get it and which not?

The density defines the space that a single soldier of a units needs. A lower density means, that the soldiers of a unit stand closer to each other (screenshoots). The density also influences the performance of a unit, a lower density makes the unit slightly (my impression) better in battle.

Units with lower density in the Density Mod 0.2 link (http://files.filefront.com/Density+Mod+02rar/;13409322;/fileinfo.html) (savegame compatible)
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_10koi_on.gif

Hoplitai Haploi (Greek Levy Hoplites) - 0.25
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_taxeis_hoplitai.gif


Hoplitai (Greek Classical Hoplites) - 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_hoplitai.gif


Syrakosioi Hoplitai (Syracusan Hoplites) - 0.3
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/italy/rebel_syracuse_hoplite.gif


Massaliotai Hoplitai (Massilian Medium Hoplites) - 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/gaul/rebel_massiloi_hoplitai.gif


Iphikratous Hoplitai (Greek Hoplite Phalanx) - 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_iphikratous_hoplitai.gif


Thorakitai Hoplitai (Greek Heavy Hoplite Phalanx) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_thorakitai_hoplitai.gif


Epilektoi Hoplitai - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_epilektoi_hoplite.gif


Spartiatai Hoplitai (Spartan Hoplites) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_spartiates.gif


Somatophylakes Strategou (Greek General) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_greek_general.gif

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_16rom_on.gif

Triarii (Early) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/romani/roman_early_triarii.gif


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_12mak_on.gif

Hypaspistai - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/makedonia/mak_hypaspistai.gif


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_15pto_on.gif

Basilikon Agema (Royal Guards) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/ptolemaioi/ptol_basilikon_agema.gif


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_09kar_on.gif

Poeni Citizen Militia - Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim - 0.25
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kar_citizen_militia.gif


Liby-Phoenician Infantry (early) - Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Mookdamim - 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kar_liby-phoenician-inf.gif


Liby-Phoenician Heavy Infantry (late) - Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Meshoorianim 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kar_liby-phoenician-heavy_inf.gif


Dorkim Kdoshim (Sacred Band Phalanx) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kar_dorkim_kdoshim.gif


Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim (Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kart_picked_libypho.gif


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_04bak_on.gif

Baktrion Agema (Baktrian Royal Guard) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_baktrioi_agema.gif


Hoplitai Indohellenikoi (Indo-Hellenic Medium Infantry) - 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_indohellenikoi_hoplitai.gif


Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai (Indo-Greek Noble Hoplites) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/baktria_indogreek_nobles.gif


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_18sak_on.gif

Agema Hellenikon (Indo-Greek Royal Guard) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/saka/saka_agema_hellenikon.gif


Hoplitai Hellenikon (Saka Heavy Hoplites) - 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/saka/saka_hoplitai_hellenikon.gif


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_07get_on.gif

Ischyroi Orditon (Elite Dacian Infantry) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_agema_orditon.gif


Getikoi Stratiotai (Dacian Light Phalanx) - 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_getikoi_stratiotai.gif


Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai (Dacian Heavy Phalanx) - 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_komatai_thorakitai_s.gif


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_20swe_on.gif

Speutagardaz (Germanic Pikemen) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/sweboz/sweboz_speutagardaz.gif


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_01aed_on.gif

Mori Gaesum (Helvetii Phalanx) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/aedui/aedui_mori_gaesum.gif


Appea Gaedotos (Alpine Phalanx) - 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/alps/rebel_appea_gaedotos.gif





Screenshots

https://img410.imageshack.us/img410/5149/rometw2009030218291360.png (https://img410.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rometw2009030218291360.png)
Spartiatai Hoplitai with 0.2 density, notice that they are already 'sitting in eachother' while running (doesn't look good IMO)

https://img210.imageshack.us/img210/7761/rometw2009030218294326.png (https://img210.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rometw2009030218294326.png)
Spartiatai Hoplitai while charging, notice that the collisions are now irrelevant (you can not see them)

https://img166.imageshack.us/img166/5492/rometw2009030218301603.png (https://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rometw2009030218301603.png)
Spartiatai Hoplitai fighting in close formation

https://img254.imageshack.us/img254/9693/rometw2009030218291885.png (https://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rometw2009030218291885.png)
Epilektoi Hoplitai with 0.23, they still 'sitting in each other' while running

https://img255.imageshack.us/img255/4619/rometw2009030218311315.png (https://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rometw2009030218311315.png)
Epilektoi Hoplitai fighting some Roman scum Romani, notice how nice they fight close to each other, even with guardmode off

https://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6260/rometw2009030220095804.png (https://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rometw2009030220095804.png)
Epilektoi Hoplitai with 0.4 density (standard)

https://img212.imageshack.us/img212/1153/rometw2009030218292326.png (https://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rometw2009030218292326.png)
Hoplitai with 0.25 density, still some collisions while runnig (0.23 or 0.25 should be the minimum)

https://img167.imageshack.us/img167/3908/rometw2009030218295000.png (https://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rometw2009030218295000.png)
Hoplitai while charging (beautiful:yes:)

https://img242.imageshack.us/img242/5521/rometw2009030218292770.png (https://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rometw2009030218292770.png)
Hoplitai Haploi with 0.3 while running (notice, that is the running animation, which is only slightly different from the charging animation, why do the other Hoplites doesn't have this "running animation"? IMO its better then the spear dragging)

https://img136.imageshack.us/img136/5286/rometw2009030218303307.png (https://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rometw2009030218303307.png)
Hoplitai Haploi (0.3) and Hoplitai (0.25) while fighting, looser formation then the Spartiatai Hoplitai, but still closer then the Epilektoi Hoplitai with 0.4 (standard)

https://img220.imageshack.us/img220/340/rometw2009030218295650.png (https://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rometw2009030218295650.png)
Syrakosioi Hoplitai with 0.4 density (standard) while runningfor more screenshots go to post #74

(please move this to the Unoffical Modding Projects)

[Βελισάριος]

I'll be following this closely, as I am interested in implementing some changes in the Legion vs. Phalanx tournament regarding this issue.

[SwissBarbar]

Very interesting! Here's my list.


yes

Hypaspistai
Baktrion Agema
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai
Hoplitai Haploi
Hoplitai
Kardaka Arteshtar (Persian Hoplites)
Liby-Phoenician Infantry (early and late)
Poeni Citizen Militia (NOT SURE)
Epilektoi Hoplitai
Spartiatai Hoplitai
Somatophylakes Strategou (KH)
Triarii - Only Camillan
Hoplitai Troglodutikes
Hoplitai Hellenikon
Agema Hellenikon
Massaliotai Hoplitai
Syrakosioi Hoplitai



No

Thorakitai
Barbarian kinds of Phalanxes (Helveti, Dacian..etc.)
Ekdromoi Hoplitai - they are meant to hunt down Peltastai, they don't need too tight formation, so they can gain speed
Gestikapoinann - Large shields, but I don't see them in a Phalanx
Peltastai Makedonikoi - Peltastai after all.

- No units with javelins in general, they would need space to throw -


Looking forward to seeing screenshots =)

[Moros]

Personally I'm for a higher density, though testing should be done if you want to do it for a MP tournament. Some other stat might need to be changed too.

Also Syrakousian hoplites fight in a looser order than thier other counterparts adn thus shouldn't get it. Not sure about the Massilian hoplites to I imagine them fighting in a looser order as well. Barbarian phalanxes or shieldwall should get it as well as they also used tight fighting orders. Of course testing could be used and see for gradations in density.

My two cents,
-moros

[Zett]

Very interesting! Here's my list.

No

Thorakitai
Barbarian kinds of Phalanxes (Helveti, Dacian..etc.)
Ekdromoi Hoplitai - they are meant to hunt down Peltastai, they don't need too tight formation, so they can gain speed
Gestikapoinann - Large shields, but I don't see them in a Phalanx
Peltastai Makedonikoi - Peltastai after all.

- No units with javelins in general, they would need space to throw -


I agree with that, but what about Dorkim Kdoshim - (Sacred Band Phalanx)? I'm not sure about them...


Barbarian phalanxes or shieldwall should get it as well as they also used tight fighting orders.
Ok, lets leave all Barbarian phalanxes and the sacred band out (for the moment). We should first care about all Hoplitai units + Thorakitai Hoplita, Iphikratous Hoplitai, Basilikon Agema, Hoplitai Indohellenikoi.

[antisocialmunky]

Of course there would need to be gradations. I do however think that someone needs to fraps one of these and show us or we could create a thread in the mods forum and make a mod based on this idea.

Don't forget those the KH Iph-type Phalanxes.

[antisocialmunky]

What happened to the delete option?

[Phalanx300]

Yes! I would totally support it. Give it to all units on the list, except:

The Ekdromoi, they were used to chase skirmishers and would thus not fight in the Phalanx.

The Thorakitai, they didn't fought in the Phalanx as far as I'm aware.

Units to further include:

The Hoplitai Hellenikoi, a Hoplite unit for Saka Rauka I believe with scale armour.

Units which previously had the vanilla Hoplite Phalanx.

And other units which fought in a dense shieldwall or Phalanx, like the Germanic spearmen, swordsmen and pikemen.

I also really hope that this can also be included for stardard EB!:2thumbsup:

[Moros]

I also really hope that this can also be included for stardard EB!:2thumbsup:

There were plans if I'm not mistaken.

[Phalanx300]

Interesting, well seeing all the solutions to make a accurate shieldwall/phalanx when not using a formation. This one is probably the best and most historical.:yes:

[Zett]

I do however think that someone needs to fraps one of these and show us or we could create a thread in the mods forum and make a mod based on this idea.


EDU: http://files.filefront.com/export+descr+unittxt/;13397615;/fileinfo.html
Hoplitai Haploi, Massilian Medium Hoplites, Poeni Citizen Militia, Ekdromoi Hoplitai (sorry, will be changed), Red Sea Hoplites (sorry will be changed) and Iphikratous Hoplitai have 0.3 density
Classicals, KH elite Hoplites, Thorakitai Hoplitai + Basilikon Agema (Ptolemaioi) ,Baktrian elite Hoplites, Syracuse Hoplites (sorry, will be changed), Trarii and Liby-Phoenician Infantry (early/late) have 0.25 density

Perhaps someone want to do some tests, if I remember correctly, that was a SP EDU i made some time ago (last year or something like that, right after EB 1.2 was released).

[Zett]

The Hoplitai Hellenikoi, a Hoplite unit for Saka Rauka I believe with scale armour.


Are you sure about this guys?
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/saka/saka_hoplitai_hellenikon.gif



And other units which fought in a dense shieldwall or Phalanx, like the Germanic spearmen, swordsmen and pikemen.

Please lets leave the barbarian phalanxes out at first, I'm overflooded at the moment (two EDU windows, several Windows of the .org and my dictoinary):help::laugh4:. Foot must be some kind of God to manage this kind of work every day...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What about the Massaliotai Hoplitai and the Red Sea Hoplites, should they get a lower density (at all, but especially at Phalanx300)?

[Moros]

Massalians I'd wait with them. Red Sea hoplites should get it IMO.

[SwissBarbar]

I changed my mind concerning the Massaliotai Hoplitai. They fight with longswords in melee and are of "wild" Celtic origin, and therefore don't fight in SUCH a dense formation as the Greek Hoplitai do.




Yes! I would totally support it. Give it to all units on the list, except:

The Ekdromoi, they were used to chase skirmishers and would thus not fight in the Phalanx.

The Thorakitai, they didn't fought in the Phalanx as far as I'm aware.

Units to further include:

The Hoplitai Hellenikoi, a Hoplite unit for Saka Rauka I believe with scale armour.

Units which previously had the vanilla Hoplite Phalanx.

And other units which fought in a dense shieldwall or Phalanx, like the Germanic spearmen, swordsmen and pikemen.

I also really hope that this can also be included for stardard EB!:2thumbsup:


Did you refer to my list? Because actually I totally agree with you concerning the Thorakitai, Ekdromoi and Germanic dudes. I have them under "no" - meaning: nope, they don't need more density. :2thumbsup:

[Zett]

I added some screenshots (see first post). I gave Spartiatai Hoplitai 0.2 density, Epilektoi Holitai 0.23 (yep I use the bodygardskin cause it looks cooler), Hoplitai 0.25 and the Haploi Hoplitai 0.3, the Syrakosioi Hoplitai are using default density (0.4). Here is the Multiplayer EDU which I used to make the screenshots: link (http://files.filefront.com/export+descr+unittxt/;13398671;/fileinfo.html)

[SwissBarbar]

https://img167.imageshack.us/img167/3908/rometw2009030218295000.png

On this pic the overlapping shields are very nice! The only thing I don't like is when they charge. They should keep the shields in front position.

[Phalanx300]

I do think that the Barbarian Phalanxes should also get it, if you read their unit discription you'll see that it are essantially shield walls, at least that is the case with the Sweboz.

For the Syracusians 0.3 would be better, they fought in a more loose formation but it was still a Phalanx (though their version was more of a hedgehog kind).

And the Massilians, I'd give them the same as the classical ones.



Are you sure about this guys?

Yea, their unit discription says that they fought the same as other Hoplites, only in service of Saka Rauka with scale armour. Their aspis also prooves it.


What about the Massaliotai Hoplitai and the Red Sea Hoplites, should they get a lower density (at all, but especially at Phalanx300)?

Massilians, I'd put them the same as classical Hoplites. And Red Sea Hoplites, I don't know how dense they are in standard formation. They were used for front line combat I think against Africans, I'd say 0.3 then if they should get it?

And the Triarii should get 0.23, they were elite infantry after all.

And about Spartans, I would let them stay at 0.2, they had more intensive training then the Epileptikoi of other cities(in my opinion). The Agoge at this time still was the hardest training in the world.

[SwissBarbar]

Then I misread your post :sweatdrop:

[Phalanx300]

Hehe :sweatdrop:. Hoplite Phalanxes were essentially also shield walls, Germanics also formed shield walls so I see no reason to apply it to them also(and other shieldwall/previous Phalanx units).:2thumbsup:

[soup_alex]

At the risk of sounding like a complete idiot:

What difference does it (spacing) make in the Rome engine? :embarassed:
(AFAIK, the negatives outweigh the positives: more limited frontage and exposing your flanks (1v1), and greater vulnerability to missile fire? Do units with tighter spacing share defence bonuses for shields? Or is it about concentration, i.e. more tightly-packed units can direct more attacks and be targetted by fewer opponents in return?)

Also, what is the standard unit of measurement for spacing (I'm guessing the "TW metre")?

Cheers.

[mlc82]

Anyone know how this method compares to TWFanatic's hoplite mod?

[Phalanx300]

soup, it makes them stay closer together, thus them being able to strike more enemies from the front, and easier enveloped as well.

mlc, I think that it is better, as the pushing with short_pike is a tad extreme.:sweatdrop:

[Tellos Athenaios]

On this pic the overlapping shields are very nice! The only thing I don't like is when they charge. They should keep the shields in front position.

I suppose it is actually quite realistic that they _don't_ keep the shields perfectly right in front of them when charging. I mean, think about it: if you advance step by step it's possible (with a lot of training) to keep that big shield reasonably steadily in front of you; but if you are charging? I'd imagine that your shield would get in the way of your legs (knees, actually), no?

[SwissBarbar]

I suppose it is actually quite realistic that they _don't_ keep the shields perfectly right in front of them when charging. I mean, think about it: if you advance step by step it's possible (with a lot of training) to keep that big shield reasonably steadily in front of you; but if you are charging? I'd imagine that your shield would get in the way of your legs (knees, actually), no?

Well, that exactly is the point. Hoplitai do not charge like a bunch of barbaroi, they advance slower and in Formation. Therefore I'd like to see them attacking slower

[Zett]

What about the Basilikon Agema (Royal Guards)?The Ptolemaioi had a problem with their elite infantry from the start. Namely, they didn't have any, since the Seleukidoi and Makedonians took what remained of Alexandros' Hypaspistai. Therefore, they had to build a unit of royal heavy infantry to compete with their rivals. Many things were tried, but ultimately the result was the Basilikon Agema, the Royal Guard. They are armed with hoplites spears and thureos shields and armored in mail, making them more mobile but less well armored than other heavy infantry. They also carry a short sword that was used rather like the Romaioi used theirs. This led to the misidentification of these troops by Latin authors as a sort of imitation legion. The Basilikon Agema is full of good troops, mostly Hellenes and Makedonians with a few Galatai and Kretai. They are an elite infantry, well able to fight in a phalanx and to break the formation and fight with their blades. They are extremely versatile and can be used to good effect by a capable commander.

Historically, the Basilikon Agema were the elite guard of the Ptolemaic king. They went everywhere with their king, and were instrumental in putting down several native revolts along with the Galatai. They outfought the natives with creative tactics that worked well against other successor pikemen as well. Most of the unit was not present at Raphia, but was used to good effect against the Seleukidai on other occasions. The unit descrition says nothing about fighting as a phalanx (only fighting with a dory spear). They only share the same model with the Thorakitai Hoplitai, but IMO we should delete them from the unit list. They fought as Royal Guards and elite infantery, they do not need a lower density.

About the Massaliotai: Massalia is a city in an interesting position. It is a Greek city, but with a substantial Celtic population and relations with neighboring Celtic tribes. Its soldiers have adjusted themselves with some Celtic gear to make them of greater use in a close melee if the phalanx is abandonned.(which means they fought in a phalanx) They make use of a superior Celtic longsword in close quarters, able to handle themselves better in such situations compared to others with lesser weapons.

Historically, Massalia was home to a substantial Greco-Celt population who were attracted to the temple of Herakles there. The inhabitants of Massalia remained largely Greek in culture, but trading, intermarrying, and fighting with nearby Celtic tribes led to crossovers in the equipment carried by each side. The soldiers of Massalia, for example, began using Celtic-style longswords and occassionally other pieces of equipment. They fought, otherwise, in a manner more typical of Hellenic soldiers.I think we should give them a density of 0.3. Same level as native greek Haploi Hoplitai, to simulate the celtic influence.

About the Syrakosioi: These men hail from one of the greatest poleis built by Hellenes, that of Syrakousai. The Syrakosioi Hoplitai are equipped with Italo-Attic helmets, lamellate cuirasses, armoured pteryges, aspis shield and greaves, while they carry a longer spear than most hoplitai use and a short sword for close melee. Centuries of warfare against armies different from that found in Hellas proper have changed the Syrakosioi Hoplitai's equipment and tactics somewhat compared to their �mainland cousins�. They are still meant to pin enemy troops down for others to hack to pieces, but unlike other Hellenic spearmen they can fare relatively well in close melee, using their shortswords to stab quicky beneath their aspis shields.

Historically, Syrakousai was among the greatest cities in the Hellenic world and who had for centuries waged wars against many enemies, mainly Carthage. Syrakousai had arguably the greatest army numerically among the Hellenic city-states and its Hoplitai formed the nucleus. The Syrakosioi Hoplitai were armed and fought as regular Hoplitai, although they adjusted themselves to the more free flowing and more organized forms of western infantry warfare (as in west of Greece). While in Greece proper it was largely hoplite against hoplite or against poor non-Hellenic infantry (the Thracians being the notable exception), in the western Mediterranean Syrakousai had to face Carthaginians in the west and Ligurian, Bruttian and Lucanian pirates and mercenaries from the north and also Illyrians, Gauls and other peoples who raided Sicily fairly regularly when they had a chance, which mostly meant whenever Syrakousai and Carthage were at war.
Syrakosioi Hoplitai fought in a less dense formation than normal for Hoplitai, but with longer spears, which they wielded with underhand thrusts. This meant that they could pin down enemy infantry with a sort of "hedgehog shieldwall" for the heavy Epilektoi soldiers to break through the middle, and cavalry to hit the flanks. In addition they also dropped the xiphos sword in favour of a shortsword made for stabbing, which they used to stab beneath their aspis shields, a technique Syrakousai adopted alongside the hoplitai of Taras anes who were more adept at close combat melee than the soldiers fielded in Greece.They fought in a less dense formation, therefore they shouldn't get a lower density.

About the Hoplitai Troglodutikes (Red Sea Hoplites): Hoplitai Troglodutikes (Erythraian Sea Hoplites) are mostly Hellenic colonists who were drawn to the Erythraian Sea coast. After initial exploration Ptolemaioi founded colonies in there to hunt elephants and trade with the natives and as far as India. Local garisson forces took part in those hunts and many of the veterans remained on those colonies after retiring. As in each Hellenic polis, a local force of hoplites would be summoned at time of need. Having completed the rigorous "ephebike askesis" they would be ready to fight against their enemies and as such the rigorous demands for citizenship have been lowered to whomever is available. The enemies aren't hoplites or Phallangitai. They are the skirmishers and spearmen of the Troglodytai, the fierce archers of Meroe and Inner Aithiopia, and maybe even the lightly armored but deadly Sabaioi. Hellenic discipline and courage can win the day, but not by underestimation of those enemies. Against those, while retaining the same offensive equipment, (spear and aspis shield), bronze muscle cuirass and linothorax have been dumped in favor of lighter quilted armour. It is easier to wear in the tropics as ancient Aigyptioi had proven. No pteryges, as they add to weight and can raise body temperature. A trusty "machaira" compliments their equipment too. Their helmet is an evolved Boiotian, the ideal helmet for providing some sort of eye protection in the desert and african coast. Their aspis has no bronze coating, relying on elephant skin instead. Natives had been using such an arrangement, for some time. Now Hoplitai Troglodutikes must do the same.

Historically Ptolemaioi were very interested in the southern regions of their domain. Akte Troglodutike or the coast of the Troglodutes was perhaps the "wild, unexplored" frontier of the time. The rising elephant hunts as well as the trade with Sabaioi and Indoi, led to the founding of a series of Colonies, with Filotera, "founded by Satyr [a Ptolemaioi general] when he was sent hunting elephants in Troglodytiki" (Strabo,16,4-5) being the first. Soon enough, Arsinoe Troglodytiki, Berenike Troglodytiki, Ptolemais of the Elephantotheron (Elephant hunters) were founded. As frontiermen always do, those people cared more for what someone could do, not the purity of his Hellenic blood. Thus Hellenised Aigyptians and other nationals could be there and perfectly fit in. However rich and promising their situation was, their enemies were at the doors as to a Troglodyte which many of them were, the Colonists were godly rich. The local hoplites fight as ekdromoi mostly, since this is the only way they can effectively deal with the fluid battlefield environment in that area. Colonies in that region existed for many centuries and that was due, in no small part to the ability of their inhabitants to defend them.The description says, that they fought as Ekdromoi ("skirmisher hunter"). They had to be fast to catch up with skirmishers, Hoplitephalanx was too slow to do so. IMO they should stay as they are, no lower density.

[SwissBarbar]

Right you are, but concerning the Massaliotai: They abandon the Phalany pretty always as melee starts ;-)

[Zett]

Right you are, but concerning the Massaliotai: They abandon the Phalany pretty always as melee starts ;-)

I want to take them out too, but Phalanx300 will kill me if I do so.:laugh4:

What about the Hypaspistai? Hail, Basileu! Before you stand your Hypaspistai: the elite of the elite and your personal guard. They are armed and armored in the finest equipment of the traditional hoplite: aspis, greaves, cuirass, helmet, spear, and sword. They are the best and richest of your men; far too worthy to risk in unwise actions. And yet they are without a doubt capable of multiplying the power of your army. Forming the right wing of the battle line or leading the assault on fortifications their heavy armor and weapons allow them to stand against even the hardiest of opponents and triumph with ease. They should be deployed where the fighting will be at its absolute thickest or nearby to fight with and to protect you.

Historically, the Hypaspistai (shield-bearers) first appear with Alexandros at the beginning of his reign as his elite troops and bodyguard. He used them extensively throughout his anabasis for special missions, assault of fortifications, and in support of light troops in rough terrain; however, details of the unit seem to disappear by the time Alexandros reaches India and remain as such until appearing in various sources for the three remaining Diadochoi kingdoms in different forms and perhaps briefly in Epeiros with Pyrrhos. Such examples of their deployment count them as possibly numbering a fifth of the 10,000 Arygraspides corps of the Seleukid kings or as the military police and closest guard of the Makedonian kings. Yet, despite their prowess, the Hypaspistai were either forced to evolve past the antiquated hoplite model as in the east or vanish with the fall of their kingdom as in the west.
They fought mostly as assaulttroops and mobile elite troops. They carried only the equipment of Hoplites, but were used for support missions, if they should hold a line, they were deployed as Arygraspides. So I think we should let them as they are, no lower density. They have very good stats too, so giving them a lower density would make them even stronger.

[Phalanx300]

I want to take them out too, but Phalanx300 will kill me if I do so.

I will indeed!:inquisitive:

Though for the Massilians, they were Greek colonist with Celtic influenced armour. I don't see how that would mean are looser Phalanx. I would keep them at 0.25 personally.


What about the Hypaspistai?

They fought as elite Hoplites, thus putting them in 0.23 would be better.

Alexander(at the part you bolded) used them as assault troops, however at EB time that role was taken over by the Peltastai Makedonikoi.

If they fought as Hoplites we should show that, no matter if they were used different before EB time or sometimes used as other units(then you might as well take those other units:sweatdrop:).


What about the Basilikon Agema (Royal Guards)?

I'd say 0.23, they were used like Iphikratous Hoplites and were a elite unit.


About the Syrakosioi:

They should definately get a looser formation! They still fought in a Phalanx(it's in the bolded part, it says they fought like Hoplites and still in a Phalanx), just in a less dense one. 0.3 would fit best, or possibly even 0.35.


About the Hoplitai Troglodutikes (Red Sea Hoplites):

Ok I agree on this, if they were used to catch Skirmishers then they fought as individual units. :yes:

The Iphikratous should get 0.25(as they fought as ordinary Hoplites in a reformed Phalanx, and the Thorakitai Hoplitai should get 0.23 as well, they were a elite unit after all. Even able to break the Roman left in battle!

The early Triarii should get 0.23 as well, they were a elite Hoplite unit.

Poeni Citizen Militia should get 0.3 as they were levy Hoplites.

The Poenician-Lybian Hoplites(early and late) should get 0.25 as they fought as ordinary Hoplites.

The Sacred Band should definately get 0.23, they were a elite Poeni Phalanx. They even reminded the greek colonist of the Theban sacred band, that should say enough.:2thumbsup:

[V.T. Marvin]

Though for the Massilians, they were Greek colonist with Celtic influenced armour. I don't see how that would mean are looser Phalanx. I would keep them at 0.25 personally.
The trouble with Massilians (and Baktrian Agema and like units too) is that the engine does not change the spacing when using different weapons (i.e. spear vs. sword). Therefore the spacing of such particular "double-wielding" unit should represent a sensible compromise between dense order of hoplite phalanx and looser order needed to use the swords (and especially Celtic longswords of Massilians!!!) to their full potential.

My point is: yes, there is a reason to give Massilians closer order similar to other hoplites BUT the incredibility of fighting with longswords in such a closer order is overruling consideration and they should stay as they are, IMHO.

(Quite frankly, to me it seems that even current spacing of the Massilians is too close for longsword fighters, but I understand that this precisely because they are hoplite phalanx as well at the same time.)

[Phalanx300]

In earlier times Hoplites also had long swords, thats no reason that you aren't able to form a Phalanx. After all in the Phalanx the best weapon is a short dagger like the Spartans eventually used. Some Hoplites also used axes, would they also need more space?

The sword is a secondary weapon, when one drew it out it didn't mean that he went out of formation and went berserk at the front rank.:inquisitive:


Also another unit for the density is the elite Phoenician-Lybian unit of Carthage (those with the axes on their shields).

[V.T. Marvin]

The sword is a secondary weapon, when one drew it out it didn't mean that he went out of formation and went berserk at the front rank.:inquisitive:
I am not suggesting any going berserk. I just maintain, that to use a long sword you need a room around yourself, otherwise you will be either confined to prodding (sensless when you have a spear as well and more effective for such fight), or you will injure your buddies around you, or be unable to perform attacks and parries at all and be killed quickly. In fact, you do yourself recognize that in confined space of hoplite phalanx there is not enough room for long blades:

After all in the Phalanx the best weapon is a short dagger like the Spartans eventually used.
Yet the Massilians do have longswords, therefore they cannot have close order phalanx at the same time in RTW engine.

In earlier times Hoplites also had long swords, thats no reason that you aren't able to form a Phalanx. (...) Some Hoplites also used axes, would they also need more space?
This is something different altogether. In real life the phalanx will be able to switch between close order and loose order - either purposefully or involuntarily due to melee. Therefore in real life it was only sensible to have a backup weapon (sword, axe, dagger, etc.) in case that things went wrong and the phalanx was broken.
However it is not happening in RTW engine (or if it does, it is buggy) and most EB hoplites are therefore represented as "spear-only" units. That is all right and they SHOULD have their spacing adjusted accordingly.:yes:
BUT for some units using those "secondary" weapons was considered so important that these were designed as "spear-and-sword" units. Now it is for these units (and most notably the Massilians) that I am arguing that making them "hoplite-phalanx-pure-and-dense" is inappropriate, because they would not be able to use their swords in a realistic manner in so dense formation.
It is a matter of balance really: making them dense would make them more effective hoplites but totally unrealistic swordsmen...:juggle2:

************************

Another option which should be considered in connection with the overall purpose of better balancing the hoplites is to increase a bit their unit mass. That should give them more push through the enemy formations, which is, I think, what they were actually doing and which might help to achieve the objective without too much undesirable effects. :idea:

[Zett]

Also another unit for the density is the elite Phoenician-Lybian unit of Carthage (those with the axes on their shields).

I heard, I thought, I rejected. Even if their unit description sacy that they are "great phalanx spearmen". They are "half Punic and half African" and a elite assault infantery.

We should only give Hellenic Hoplites a lower density to represent the Hoplite phalanx. All other units (barbarians and so on, that have no directly link to Hoplites) should wait.

And about the Basilikon Agema (Royal Guards), the description says nothing about fighting as Hoplites therefor they should not get a lower density (IMO). That the Basilikon Agema and the Torakitai Hoplitai share the same model and have a similar equitment doesn't say that they fought the same way.

Massaliotai...I saw that comming, really...:wall: ... :dizzy2: ... :wall: ... :idea2: , ok 0.3!

All other Hoplites with a secondary weapon (except the Iphikratous Hoplitai and the Thorakitai Hoplitai) shouldn't get a lower density. Bye bye Hypaspistai:clown:. No, really, we should think about that, if a Hoplit switches to sword he is no longer able to stay with his shield in the phalanx formation. He have to move his shield away to slash. So the minimum for all units with a secondary weapon (except Iphikratous and Thorakitai Hoplitai, because they are native Greeks) such as Hypaspistai, Massaliotai, Baktrion Agema and Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai, should be 0.3 (IMO).

[SwissBarbar]

Didn't greeks train carthaginian soldiers (I had somewhat like that in mind, isn't there even a charthaginian FM who has Spartiatai Hoplitai as Bodyguard?).

I think the carthaginian phalanxes can be given a more dense formation too

[Zett]

Didn't greeks train carthaginian soldiers (I had somewhat like that in mind, isn't there even a charthaginian FM who has Spartiatai Hoplitai as Bodyguard?).

I think the carthaginian phalanxes can be given a more dense formation too

But the Greeks have a longer tradition in fighting as a phalanx, that shopuld be represented.

[SwissBarbar]

but if even the Celtic Massaliotai have lower density... ? ^^

[Phalanx300]

Then I gues I wont use this minomod(right?), it has way to many densities which I disagree with and alot of units not being given it who should definately have it.:dizzy2:


I am not suggesting any going berserk. I just maintain, that to use a long sword you need a room around yourself, otherwise you will be either confined to prodding (sensless when you have a spear as well and more effective for such fight), or you will injure your buddies around you, or be unable to perform attacks and parries at all and be killed quickly. In fact, you do yourself recognize that in confined space of hoplite phalanx there is not enough room for long blades:

Yet long blades have been used in a Hoplite Phalanx in earlier times, I don't see why a looser Phalanx would be a result, it makes no sense.:sweatdrop:


Yet the Massilians do have longswords, therefore they cannot have close order phalanx at the same time in RTW engine.

Ofcourse they can, a side arm doesn't change the formation. :whip:


This is something different altogether. In real life the phalanx will be able to switch between close order and loose order - either purposefully or involuntarily due to melee. Therefore in real life it was only sensible to have a backup weapon (sword, axe, dagger, etc.) in case that things went wrong and the phalanx was broken.
However it is not happening in RTW engine (or if it does, it is buggy) and most EB hoplites are therefore represented as "spear-only" units. That is all right and they SHOULD have their spacing adjusted accordingly.
BUT for some units using those "secondary" weapons was considered so important that these were designed as "spear-and-sword" units. Now it is for these units (and most notably the Massilians) that I am arguing that making them "hoplite-phalanx-pure-and-dense" is inappropriate, because they would not be able to use their swords in a realistic manner in so dense formation.
It is a matter of balance really: making them dense would make them more effective hoplites but totally unrealistic swordsmen...

Not really, a great line of Hoplites wouldn't be able to switch between loose and close 123. The units using secondary weapons were included for the fact that they were armed special. They would be able to use longswords in a shield wall. Just look at the vikings if you don't believe me.

And Hoplites aren't intended to be used as swordsmen in the first place...





But the Greeks have a longer tradition in fighting as a phalanx, that shopuld be represented.

The Hellenes shouldn't be the only ones with a good density, thats not realistic.


No, really, we should think about that, if a Hoplit switches to sword he is no longer able to stay with his shield in the phalanx formation. He have to move his shield away to slash.

Ofcourse not! In a real Hoplite Phalanx don't think that you had room to maneuvre that much. You would have to hack at your enemy, how else would axes also be used?

[Zett]

I uploaded the EDU files (both Multiplayer and Singlerplayer) for everyone who want to try it, give me your opinion about it: link
(http://files.filefront.com/Density+Mod+01rar/;13403491;/fileinfo.html)

Density Mod 0.1

Spatiatai Hoplitai 0.22
Epilektoi Hoplitai 0.22
Somatophylakes Strategou 0.22

Hoplitai 0.23
Thorakitai Hoplitai 0.23
Basilikon Agema 0.23

Hoplitai Haploi 0.25
Iphikratous Hoplitai 0.25
Triarii 0.25
Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Mookdamim 0.25
Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Meshoorianim 0.25

Syrakosioi Hoplitai 0.3
Massaliotai Hoplitai 0.3
Hypaspistai 0.3
Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim 0.3
Baktrion Agema 0.3
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai 0.3
Hoplitai Indohellenikoi 0.3
Hoplitai Hellenikon 0.3

Installation:

Copy the 'sp game edu backup' and the 'mp edu backup' folder in your
EB folder* and overwrite the existing edu files

*for example C:\Program Files\Activison\Rome: Total War\EB

And I guess this should be moved to 'EB Unofficial Modding Project', would be nice if a Moderater could do this:sweatdrop:

I thought about the lower density as a way to represent the hoplits in their phalanx, with phalanx I mean the Greek phalanx.
http://lokomodele.republika.pl/figurki/it6024.jpghttp://oxleylearning.org/history/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/hoplites.jpg
I want to represent hoplites that locked their shields together, thats why I don't want to give all Carthagian units lower density. I don't want to represent a dense formation, I want to represent the Greek Hoplite fightingstyle.

[C.LVCIANVS]

I' ve reworked personally the EB stats altering totally the EDU & descr_projectile new, rebalancing all the game for the bi.exe, using the short_pike and shield_wall ability.
My first aim was to increase the effectiveness of artillery and missiles (from a min value of 7-ap attack of simple slingshot levy unit to a max value of 26.5-ap for cohors praetoria's pila). Then I've changed all units' spacing and training. Added the shield_wall to some units, warcry, berserk to units who deserves it, according to their description and role on the battlefield. I've put to classical hoplite units the short_pike attribute, only to "pure" ones, those without secondary weapons. Changed from "light_spear" to "spear" for "pushing" units, like phalanxes, hoplites, Helvetians, Arjos and similar. Changed all units' number of turns to build, from 0 to 3-4, depending on how many weeks were needed for training or mustering. I've also modded navies, from cost to train, upkeep, turn to build and number of soldiers per unit.
:7blacksmith:
The last problem are all those "hybrid" units, like Agema, Iphikratean, Hipaspistic, Syracusan, Massilian, Indogreek, Sacred Band, Persian, Helvetian, Getic, etc. Not enough phalanxes, not enough hoplites, not enough loose or dense, static or mobile, I' ve left them as they are.:stars:

Altering density seems very good. I'm thinking also about dense sword-fighting units, like gladius infantry: I've always hated the way legionaries break formations in melee, spacing each other without the guard mode. I want to see them holding the line, at least the post-marian ones...

:2cents:

[soup_alex]

Didn't greeks train carthaginian soldiers (I had somewhat like that in mind, isn't there even a charthaginian FM who has Spartiatai Hoplitai as Bodyguard?).

I think the carthaginian phalanxes can be given a more dense formation too
Yup, Qarthadastim get a scripted general (non-FM) ca. 255BC; Xanthippos (Spartiatai Hoplitai), who was recruited as a tactical instructor or somesuch.

Excellent work, Zett! I will definitely be testing your EDU in the near future (but not just now, I'm about to start a game of Hannibal (board game))!

[Zett]

Perhaps Phalanx300 could make a list which units he want to use with lower density and give me also the exact density for each, so I could make a second EDU.

Or I could do something like this:

1. all Hoplites get 0.23 density (from Hoplitai Haploi to Epilektoi, including Hypaspistai, Indogreek Hoplitai with Hoplo, Triarii, Libians with Hoplo)

2. all 'semiphalanxes' get 0.25 density (Ihpikratous Hoplitai, Thorakitai Hoplitai, Basilikon Agema, Hoplitai Indohellenikoi, Sacred Band, Germanic Pikemen, Mori Gaesum, Alpine Phalanx)

3. all other units that should get a lower density get 0.3 (pherhaps Noricene Gaecori or polybian Triarii)

[C.LVCIANVS]

Excellent work, Zett! I will definitely be testing your EDU in the near future (but not just now, I'm about to start a game of Hannibal (board game))!

O.T.- "Hannibal: 218-211 b.c. The second punic war" ? ~:doh:
My brother likes it very much, I 've played with him sometimes... He has always beaten me, he uses only the romans... :rolleyes:

[Phalanx300]

Sure, and I'm personally more a fan of 0.2 as I see Hoplite warfare as very dense as seen in these two videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHZt5kpN8T8&feature=channel_page

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2XLKmWAXyk&feature=channel_page

-----------------------------

Greek Phoenician Roman Units:

Spartiatai Hoplitai, 0.2
Epileptikoi Hoplitai, 0.2
Somatophylakes Strategou, 0.2
Triarii (Camillan ones), 0.2
Hypaspistai, 0.2
Thorakitai Hoplitai, 0.2
Basilikon Agema, 0.2
Baktrion Agema, 0.2
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai, 0.2
Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim, 0.2
Dorkim Kdoshim, 0.2

Hoplitai, 0.23
Hoplitai Hellenikon, 0.23
Iphikratous Hoplitai, 0.23
Massaliotai Hoplitai 0.23
Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Mookdamim, 0.23
Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Meshoorianim 0.23
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai, 0.23
Hoplitai Indohellenikoi 0.23

Hoplitai Haploi, 0.25
Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim, 0.25

Syrakosioi Hoplitai 0.3

[Zett]

Sure, and I'm personally more a fan of 0.2 as I see Hoplite warfare as very dense as seen in these two videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHZt5kpN8T8&feature=channel_page

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2XLKmWAXyk&feature=channel_page

-----------------------------

Greek Phoenician Roman Units:

Spartiatai Hoplitai, 0.2
Epileptikoi Hoplitai, 0.2
Somatophylakes Strategou, 0.2
Triarii (Camillan ones), 0.2
Hypaspistai, 0.2
Thorakitai Hoplitai, 0.2
Basilikon Agema, 0.2
Baktrion Agema, 0.2
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai, 0.2
Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim, 0.2
Dorkim Kdoshim, 0.2

Hoplitai, 0.23
Hoplitai Hellenikon, 0.23
Iphikratous Hoplitai, 0.23
Massaliotai Hoplitai 0.23
Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Mookdamim, 0.23
Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Meshoorianim 0.23
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai, 0.23
Hoplitai Indohellenikoi 0.23

Hoplitai Haploi, 0.25
Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim, 0.25

Syrakosioi Hoplitai 0.3

I guess Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai 0.2? I have done the Multiplayer EDU so far, but I can not find the Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim (Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry), does someone know which number they have in the EDU files?

Oh, I forgot one unit in the Density Mod 0.1 files. I gave the mecenary Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim (for the Eleutheroi) a lower density, but forgot the 'normal' Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim (for Carthage).:oops:

[Woreczko]

Guys, are you sure, that "radius" doesn`t affect missile resistance? I had some doubts, after using javelins on a small radius unit. They seemed too resistant for their stats. Perhaps smaller radius made individual men harder to hit... But I`m not sure.

[SwissBarbar]

I think IF it had any effect, then a negative one. Loose formation is better against missiles, so dense formation should be worse...

[Woreczko]

Nope. The attribute you are changing is "radius" (just look in the EDU documentation). A radius, that a single soldier occupies. The smaller the radius, the thinner the target...may be. It works in melee, but I`m not sure if it works for missiles too. Just asking :)

[Phalanx300]

I guess Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai 0.2? I have done the Multiplayer EDU so far, but I can not find the Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim (Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry), does someone know which number they have in the EDU files?

Oh, I forgot one unit in the Density Mod 0.1 files. I gave the mecenary Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim (for the Eleutheroi) a lower density, but forgot the 'normal' Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim (for Carthage).:oops:

Yes 0.2 as they were noble elite soldiers, my bad:sweatdrop:.

On the Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim, I wouldn't know. Though all units are directed into spots like Germanians Hellenes etc. Also some units ingame don't match the name in the EDU or the site which can get annoying. Like those Belgian spearmen:whip:.


Guys, are you sure, that "radius" doesn`t affect missile resistance? I had some doubts, after using javelins on a small radius unit. They seemed too resistant for their stats. Perhaps smaller radius made individual men harder to hit... But I`m not sure.

I wouldn't know about missle resistance, a real Hoplite Phalanx would basicly be close to invurnable to arrows and javelins. But I don't know how it works out with shorter radius.

Shorter radius decreases the room that the units takes in, overlapping units would kindoff proove that they aren't getting thinner or anything.

So to keep it short: I wouldn't know.:sweatdrop:


I think IF it had any effect, then a negative one. Loose formation is better against missiles, so dense formation should be worse...

That depends, old sources say that the pilum was close to useless against Phalangites. And Hoplites were close to invurnable to missles as well (then again which part of the body is not good protected?).

[Dutchhoplite]

I'm tempted to use these changes, looks interesting.

[mcantu]

after much testing in RTR-XXX i have come to the conclusion that 0.2 for hoplites makes them too powerful. what i'm doing now is setting all hoplites at 0.3 and all phalangites at 0.2

[soup_alex]

O.T.- "Hannibal: 218-211 b.c. The second punic war" ? ~:doh:
My brother likes it very much, I 've played with him sometimes... He has always beaten me, he uses only the romans... :rolleyes:
(Apologies in advance for not resolving this communication via PM, but I can't feel bad about promoting an excellent game like Hannibal; I would definitely recommend it to anyone with an interest in strategy and/or that period in history.
/advertisement ~;))

Indeed! At least, it sounds a lot like it: the version I know is subtitled "Rome vs. Carthage" (http://yxklyx.com/thecolosseum/hannibal/), but after a few games with my own brother (no mean strategist, who also plays Rome), I've had some fair degree of success with Carthage (poor luck with battle card draws, Numidian defectors and "Hanno counsels Carthage" notwithstanding...)

[Βελισάριος]

I think IF it had any effect, then a negative one. Loose formation is better against missiles, so dense formation should be worse...

I haven't tested the EDUs yet, but in my sincere opinion... if it makes them invulnerable to missiles... bloomin' finally!

I don't know about you, but when a unit of arse-wipe Hastati decimates a unit of Hoplitai with javelins, then I know something's not right... somebody vomited in the petunias there.

On the other hand, if the missile attack is from behind that'd be near devastating... which it should be, after all.

[Woreczko]

I wouldn't know about missle resistance, a real Hoplite Phalanx would basicly be close to invurnable to arrows and javelins.
You have a point here. AFAIK "phalanx" ability coubles the effectiveness of the shields against missiles. It`s quite logical, for classical hoplites to also get similar bonus... by means of smaller radius for example.


Shorter radius decreases the room that the units takes in, overlapping units would kindoff proove that they aren't getting thinner or anything.

Units overlap, because of graphics but I believe that the engine cares more about abstract numbers (i.e. radius), than the unit`s skeleton and skin. One of the reasons, why hoplites in vanilla EB don`t perform that well, while in guard mode, may be - that large radius and close spacing causes soldiers to get in the way of each other. I suppose, that may be the reason, why only some of the guys in the first rank seem to really engage in combat, while others are watching...

[Zett]

So nobody knows which number the Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim (Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry) have? Or which name they use in the EDU? I want to upload Phalanx300 edu files, they are the last unit that is missing.:help:


;536
type carthaginian infantry picked libyphoenician
dictionary carthaginian_infantry_picked_libyphoenician ; Picked Libyphoenician
category infantry
class heavy

I think I found them:sweatdrop:

[SwissBarbar]

try and know :laugh4:

[Zett]

Greek Phoenician Roman Units:

Spartiatai Hoplitai, 0.2
Epileptikoi Hoplitai, 0.2
Somatophylakes Strategou, 0.2
Triarii (Camillan ones), 0.2
Hypaspistai, 0.2
Thorakitai Hoplitai, 0.2
Basilikon Agema, 0.2
Baktrion Agema, 0.2
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai, 0.2
Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim, 0.2
Dorkim Kdoshim, 0.2

Hoplitai, 0.23
Hoplitai Hellenikon, 0.23
Iphikratous Hoplitai, 0.23
Massaliotai Hoplitai 0.23
Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Mookdamim, 0.23
Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Meshoorianim 0.23
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai, 0.23
Hoplitai Indohellenikoi 0.23

Hoplitai Haploi, 0.25
Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim, 0.25

Syrakosioi Hoplitai 0.3

Phalanx300 Density Mod:Phalanx300.rar (http://files.filefront.com/Phalanx300rar/;13408469;/fileinfo.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------

What about these guys?

Barbarian units:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/aedui/aedui_mori_gaesum.gifhttps://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/sweboz/sweboz_speutagardaz.gifhttps://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/alps/rebel_appea_gaedotos.gif
Mori Gaesum - Speutagardaz (Germanic Pikemen) - Appea Gaedotos (Alpine Phalanx)

0.3 for the Pikemen and the Alpine Phalanx and 0.25 for the Mori Gaesum?

Dacian units:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_getikoi_stratiotai.gifhttps://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_komatai_thorakitai_s.gif
Getikoi Stratiotai (Dacian Light Phalanx) - Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai (Dacian Heavy Phalanx)

Both 0.25?

[Phalanx300]

Thanks Zett, and for the "Barbarian" units:

------

Germanic Units:

Speutagardaz, 0.2
Druhtiz Herusku, 0.2

Dugunthiz, 0.23
Herunautoz, 0.23
Thegnoz Drugule, 0.23
Herthaganautoz, 0.23
Druhtiz Habukisku, 0.23
Dugunthiz Hattisku, 0.23
Gaizoz Alje, 0.23
Druhtiz Skandzisku, 0.23

Gaizoz Frije, 0.3

-----

Celtic Units:

Mori Gaesum, 0.2
Arjos, 0.2

Appea Gaedotos, 0.23
Noricene Gaecori, 0.23
Milnaht, 0.23


-----

Getai Units:

Ischyroi Orditon, 0.2

Getikoi Stratiotai, 0.23
Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai, 0.23


I think thats about it:clown:.

[Dutchhoplite]

Nice work guys :)

I'm wondering what's best to do download this mod or change by hand. Only i have to know what to change :sweatdrop:

[Zett]

Thanks Zett, and for the "Barbarian" units:

------

Germanic Units:

Speutagardaz, 0.2
Druhtiz Herusku, 0.2

Dugunthiz, 0.23
Herunautoz, 0.23
Thegnoz Drugule, 0.23
Herthaganautoz, 0.23
Druhtiz Habukisku, 0.23
Dugunthiz Hattisku, 0.23
Gaizoz Alje, 0.23
Druhtiz Skandzisku, 0.23

Gaizoz Frije, 0.3

-----

Celtic Units:

Mori Gaesum, 0.2
Arjos, 0.2

Appea Gaedotos, 0.23
Noricene Gaecori, 0.23
Milnaht, 0.23


-----

Getai Units:

Ischyroi Orditon, 0.2

Getikoi Stratiotai, 0.23
Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai, 0.23


I think thats about it:clown:.

Gaizoz Frije, unit description says nothing about shieldwall, they are Levy Spearmen "lacking in the organized training of the warbands that serve in a more regular capacity"
Druhtiz Herusku (Cherusci Swordsmen) nothing about shield wall, and they fought with swords.
Dugunthiz (Germanic Spearmen) "work in close or open formation" and they have javelines
Herthaganautoz (Germanic Bodyguard Infantry) are bodyguards and not line Infantery, also the unit description says nothing about shieldwall
Thegnoz Drugule (Germanic Heavy Infantry) swordmen, I dont think they were able to fight in close formation and use their swords like the Romanii, they would fight individually.
Herunautoz (Germanic Swordsmen) swordmen and javeline, the unitdescription says "dense formations" but if they throw a javeline, they need space
Dugunthiz Hattisku (Chatti Spearmen) they have javelines too
Gaizoz Alje (Celto-Germanic Spearmen) description says nothing about shieldwall or dense formation
Milnaht "Aside from their charge, they form an impressive, tight 'shieldwall' type of formation, to resist opposing charges." that can be better represented with guardmode, they would not charge in a dense formation

If you would give all those units lower density, you would need to give it all Romans too. I think only those units that fought in a very dense formation nearly all the time of a battle (no sword or javeline), for example all units that lost their phalanxability in 1.0 (not sure could be 1.1 too) should get a lower density.

-----------------------------------------------------
Density Mod 0.2 link (http://files.filefront.com/Density+Mod+02rar/;13409322;/fileinfo.html)

Spartiatai Hoplitai, 0.2
Epileptikoi Hoplitai, 0.2
Somatophylakes Strategou, 0.2
Triarii (Camillan ones), 0.2
Hypaspistai, 0.2
Thorakitai Hoplitai, 0.2
Basilikon Agema, 0.2
Baktrion Agema, 0.2
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai, 0.2
Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim, 0.2
Dorkim Kdoshim, 0.2
Mori Gaesum, 0.2
Speutagardaz, 0.2
Ischyroi Orditon, 0.2

Hoplitai, 0.23
Hoplitai Hellenikon, 0.23
Iphikratous Hoplitai, 0.23
Massaliotai Hoplitai 0.23
Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Mookdamim, 0.23
Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Meshoorianim 0.23
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai, 0.23
Hoplitai Indohellenikoi 0.23
Appea Gaedotos, 0.23
Getikoi Stratiotai, 0.23
Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai, 0.23

Hoplitai Haploi, 0.25
Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim, 0.25

Syrakosioi Hoplitai 0.3

Installation:

Copy the 'sp game edu backup' and the 'mp edu backup' folder in your
EB folder* and overwrite the existing edu files

-----------------------------------------------------


Nice work guys :)

I'm wondering what's best to do download this mod or change by hand. Only i have to know what to change :sweatdrop:

Change it yourself or give me your unitlist and the density for each unit (but please not too many). You can do it easily, just open the EDU, search for the unit you want to give a lower density and add the density (for example: , 0.23) to the 'soldier' line.
[IMG]https://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4729/densityinfo.png

[Phalanx300]

Gaizoz Frije, unit description says nothing about shieldwall, they are Levy Spearmen "lacking in the organized training of the warbands that serve in a more regular capacity"
Druhtiz Herusku (Cherusci Swordsmen) nothing about shield wall, and they fought with swords.
Dugunthiz (Germanic Spearmen) "work in close or open formation" and they have javelines
Herthaganautoz (Germanic Bodyguard Infantry) are bodyguards and not line Infantery, also the unit description says nothing about shieldwall
Thegnoz Drugule (Germanic Heavy Infantry) swordmen, I dont think they were able to fight in close formation and use their swords like the Romanii, they would fight individually.
Herunautoz (Germanic Swordsmen) swordmen and javeline, the unitdescription says "dense formations" but if they throw a javeline, they need space
Dugunthiz Hattisku (Chatti Spearmen) they have javelines too
Gaizoz Alje (Celto-Germanic Spearmen) description says nothing about shieldwall or dense formation
Milnaht "Aside from their charge, they form an impressive, tight 'shieldwall' type of formation, to resist opposing charges." that can be better represented with guardmode, they would not charge in a dense formation


The Germanics were known to fight in very dense formations. The levy units were from childhood introduced to war, and being Germanics they would have a closer formation then most other levies.

On the spear and swordsmen, they were known to form a shieldwall/very dense formation, at the very least a very dense formation. They have javelins yes, but that does not change that they fought in the shieldwall as well. The Germanics were all around troops.:2thumbsup:

The bodyguard units would essentialy be the heavy form of the spear and swordsmen.

On Milnaht, then we might as well give Hoplites just guard mode at well. I don't really like this preference for Hellenic units.:whip:

After all, this is EB, all factions should get equal treatment:yes:.


If you would give all those units lower density, you would need to give it all Romans too. I think only those units that fought in a very dense formation nearly all the time of a battle (no sword or javeline), for example all units that lost their phalanxability in 1.0 (not sure could be 1.1 too) should get a lower density.

Not really as all those units I posted fought in a Phalanx/Shieldwall/Dense formation.

[Zett]

I don't think that all Germanic units fought in dense formation, so if the unit description says nothing about it we should not give them a lower density. In doubt leave it out. And about the bodyguards, to give them lower density only because thei are elites makes no sense. If we have no sources about them fighting in dense formation we should leave them at they are. They also have small shields which would be less effective if used in shieldwall then other shields. There for we should represent them as assualt infantery.
And about swordfighting. I think to hold a dense phalanx like formation while fighting with a sword is only possible if you stab. But if you want to slash with full power you need more space, same goes for javelines. Because we can not change the density in battle to represent the switching between javelin and close combat spear we should leave them at thei are, thats more realistic then let them throw their javelines in dense formation.

Not really as all those units I posted fought in a Phalanx/Shieldwall/Dense formation.
Even if they fought in dense formation, that doesn't mean that they always fought in that way. And if they carry javelines, they would not throw them while in close formation. (fighting in close combat with spear in loose formation possible, throwing a javeline in close formation...dangerous:clown:).

[Phalanx300]

Well Germanics did usually fought in a more dense formation. About swordsmen, it says that they fought in the shieldwall. And swordsmen would perfectly be able to do so, just look at the Viking and Saxon shieldwalls etc.

And about small shields, well as you've seen from all Germanic units, there wasn't exactly a standard shield design, the EB team wanted some variety, at least thats what I think.:skull:



Even if they fought in dense formation, that doesn't mean that they always fought in that way. And if they carry javelines, they would not throw them while in close formation. (fighting in close combat with spear in loose formation possible, throwing a javeline in close formation...dangerous).

Then we could say that about all units who did fought in close formation.

And trowing a javelin, well it wouldn't be exactly impossible you wouldn't be able to trow it far or effective. Though they probably trew it when not in shieldwall and afterwards forming one.:clown:

Also, the Romans also sometimes used dense formation and also wore Javelins, it isn't exactly impossible.:sweatdrop:

[Zett]

And about small shields, well as you've seen from all Germanic units, there wasn't exactly a standard shield design, the EB team wanted some variety, at least thats what I think.:skull:


We shoudn't give all units a lower density if we think it fits to them, if the unitdescription say nothing about it (and in that case it says nothing) we shouldn't give them a lower density. And the shields have to be of a proper size to form a shield wall, so the bodyguard unit shouldnt get lower density.



And trowing a javelin, well it wouldn't be exactly impossible you wouldn't be able to trow it far or effective. Though they probably trew it when not in shieldwall and afterwards forming one.:clown:


Thats the point, we are not able to let them change their density during battle, so it would be unrealistic if they throw javelines in dense formation (at least as dense as they would be if we give them 0.2 or 0.23). Thats why I say, fighting in loose formation would be possible and not unrealistic for them, throwing javelines would.



Then we could say that about all units who did fought in close formation.


Yes we could, but Hoplites don't carry javelines (normaly) and there for they would fought more often in dense formation then a germanic unit with javelines. If we could not represent the change during battle we should vote for the most realistical way to represent them. Throwing javelines in dense formation would be more unrealistic then fighting in loose formation (I'm starting to repeating me).


And swordsmen would perfectly be able to do so, just look at the Viking and Saxon shieldwalls etc.


http://www.regia.org/shields.htm Here they speak mostly from spears that were used in the shield wall (of course, different time frame then EB), same here http://homepage.ntlworld.com/echoblue/Theshieldwall.htm
wiki say that there ARE problems with swords and only shortswords could be effectively used in shieldwall.

And to all others (yes im looking at the 'hits' for thit thread and they are increasing) tell us what you think about that idea and how we should represent the Germanic units.

[Dutchhoplite]

Hmm it's well beyond the EB period but at Strasbourg (357 AD) the Roman infantry *might* have carried the spatha and still fight in a shieldwall. So fighting in close formation and still use a longer sword is not impossible.

[Zett]

But they a Romani, they don't use shield wall. They are very disciplined and have a good training. And i think their formation is not so close like a shield wall.

About the barbarian units that Phalanx300 posted:

I could give all units with javelines that should also fought in a denser formation a 0.3 density:

Dugunthiz (Germanic Spearmen) - 0.3
Herunautoz (Germanic Swordsmen) - 0,3
Dugunthiz Hattisku (Chatti Spearmen) - 0.3

units that only fought with swords a 0.3 or 0.25 density:

Thegnoz Drugule (Germanic Heavy Infantry) - 0.25
Druhtiz Herusku (Cherusci Swordsmen) - 0.3

and for the others:

Gaizoz Frije (Germanic Levy Spearmen) - 0.3
Gaizoz Alje (Celto-Germanic Spearmen) - 0.4 (standart, cause they are levys and throw javelines AFAIK)
Druhtiz Skandzisku (Scandinavian Spearmen) - 0.23 or 0.25
Druhtiz Habukisku (Chauci Spearmen) - 0.23 or 0.25
Herthaganautoz (Germanic Bodyguard Infantry) 0.4 (even if they are elites, they carry smaler shields, fight with sword (secondary) and the unit descritpion says nothing about dense formation or shield wall

Noricene Gaecori - 0.3 (javelines)
Milnaht - 0.25 or 0.3 (swords)
Arjos - 0.2 or 0.23 (im not sure, I would prefer 0.23)

[SwissBarbar]

The Camillan Triarii do. You can read in their description:


Thus the Triarii still continue to fight like the classical hoplite of the 5th and 4th century BC Etruscan Roman armies.

[Zett]

The Camillan Triarii do. You can read in their description:

Look at the first post, they where some of the first non hellenic units that get a lower density, in the Density Mod 0.2 they have 0.23 0.2.

By the way, if nobody move this thread to the Unoffical Modding Projects, I will open there a new thread and leave this as a dicscussian thread.

[SwissBarbar]

ah yeah, there they are ^^

[Phalanx300]

Then I gues we both will just have different EDU's. I will pick what in my eyes will be more Historical.:sweatdrop:

[Zett]

Then I gues we both will just have different EDU's. I will pick what in my eyes will be more Historical.:sweatdrop:

If you give me the unit numbers (in the EDU) and the density (I guess the density you posted earlier) I could change the EDU for you if you want.

[Phalanx300]

No thanks that wont be necasarry:sweatdrop:.

[Dutchhoplite]

Maybe it's possible to make a final list?? I lost track somewhat :embarassed:

[Zett]

First post was updated a while ago, with mod link and unitlist




Units with lower density in the Density Mod 0.2 link (http://files.filefront.com/Density+Mod+02rar/;13409322;/fileinfo.html)
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_10koi_on.gif

Hoplitai Haploi (Greek Levy Hoplites) - 0.25
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_taxeis_hoplitai.gif


Hoplitai (Greek Classical Hoplites) - 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_hoplitai.gif


Syrakosioi Hoplitai (Syracusan Hoplites) - 0.3
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/italy/rebel_syracuse_hoplite.gif


Massaliotai Hoplitai (Massilian Medium Hoplites) - 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/gaul/rebel_massiloi_hoplitai.gif


Iphikratous Hoplitai (Greek Hoplite Phalanx) - 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_iphikratous_hoplitai.gif


Thorakitai Hoplitai (Greek Heavy Hoplite Phalanx) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_thorakitai_hoplitai.gif


Epilektoi Hoplitai - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_epilektoi_hoplite.gif


Spartiatai Hoplitai (Spartan Hoplites) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_spartiates.gif


Somatophylakes Strategou (Greek General) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_greek_general.gif

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_16rom_on.gif

Triarii (Early) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/romani/roman_early_triarii.gif


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_12mak_on.gif

Hypaspistai - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/makedonia/mak_hypaspistai.gif


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_15pto_on.gif

Basilikon Agema (Royal Guards) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/ptolemaioi/ptol_basilikon_agema.gif


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_09kar_on.gif

Poeni Citizen Militia - Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim - 0.25
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kar_citizen_militia.gif


Liby-Phoenician Infantry (early) - Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Mookdamim - 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kar_liby-phoenician-inf.gif


Liby-Phoenician Heavy Infantry (late) - Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Meshoorianim 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kar_liby-phoenician-heavy_inf.gif


Dorkim Kdoshim (Sacred Band Phalanx) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kar_dorkim_kdoshim.gif


Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim (Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kart_picked_libypho.gif


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_04bak_on.gif

Baktrion Agema (Baktrian Royal Guard) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_baktrioi_agema.gif


Hoplitai Indohellenikoi (Indo-Hellenic Medium Infantry) - 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_indohellenikoi_hoplitai.gif


Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai (Indo-Greek Noble Hoplites) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/baktria_indogreek_nobles.gif


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_18sak_on.gif

Hoplitai Hellenikon (Saka Heavy Hoplites) - 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/saka/saka_hoplitai_hellenikon.gif


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_07get_on.gif

Ischyroi Orditon (Elite Dacian Infantry) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_agema_orditon.gif


Getikoi Stratiotai (Dacian Light Phalanx) - 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_getikoi_stratiotai.gif


Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai (Dacian Heavy Phalanx) - 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_komatai_thorakitai_s.gif


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_20swe_on.gif

Speutagardaz (Germanic Pikemen) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/sweboz/sweboz_speutagardaz.gif


https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/menu_faction_01aed_on.gif

Mori Gaesum (Helvetii Phalanx) - 0.2
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/aedui/aedui_mori_gaesum.gif


Appea Gaedotos (Alpine Phalanx) - 0.23
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/alps/rebel_appea_gaedotos.gif

[SwissBarbar]

Could you please post some screenshots of some of the units, where they stand in formation and are not moving? :2thumbsup: That would be nice :beam:

[Zett]

Could you please post some screenshots of some of the units, where they stand in formation and are not moving? :2thumbsup: That would be nice :beam:

Battle with lower density (look first post for density values)

Standing units https://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7268/rometw2009030615373509.bmphttps://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1475/rometw2009030615374446.bmphttps://img246.imageshack.us/img246/7057/rometw2009030615375450.bmphttps://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7530/rometw2009030615375895.bmphttps://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5840/rometw2009030615380428.bmphttps://img519.imageshack.us/img519/3856/rometw2009030615380806.bmphttps://img26.imageshack.us/img26/8476/rometw2009030615381282.bmp

Steady units https://img10.imageshack.us/img10/246/rometw2009030615395826.bmphttps://img223.imageshack.us/img223/7126/rometw2009030615400612.bmphttps://img17.imageshack.us/img17/722/rometw2009030615401725.bmphttps://img300.imageshack.us/img300/4213/rometw2009030615404378.bmphttps://img243.imageshack.us/img243/2286/rometw2009030615410815.bmphttps://img55.imageshack.us/img55/3592/rometw2009030615412628.bmp

Fighting units https://img515.imageshack.us/img515/6663/rometw2009030615430356.bmphttps://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5496/rometw2009030615432701.bmphttps://img228.imageshack.us/img228/281/rometw2009030615432995.bmphttps://img142.imageshack.us/img142/4124/rometw2009030615452259.bmp

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Battle with standard density

Standing units https://img237.imageshack.us/img237/1580/rometw2009030616360854.bmphttps://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5449/rometw2009030616361396.bmphttps://img9.imageshack.us/img9/5402/rometw2009030616362293.bmphttps://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4728/rometw2009030616362637.bmphttps://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5415/rometw2009030616363162.bmphttps://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2610/rometw2009030616363585.bmphttps://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1246/rometw2009030616364298.bmp

Steady units https://img23.imageshack.us/img23/9645/rometw2009030616392823.bmphttps://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1161/rometw2009030616393640.bmphttps://img230.imageshack.us/img230/3022/rometw2009030616394495.bmphttps://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3652/rometw2009030616400915.bmphttps://img23.imageshack.us/img23/9910/rometw2009030616402368.bmphttps://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4914/rometw2009030616405604.bmphttps://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2924/rometw2009030616414712.bmp

Fighting units https://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9362/rometw2009030616413867.bmphttps://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8933/rometw2009030616421785.bmphttps://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5892/rometw2009030616423559.bmphttps://img11.imageshack.us/img11/584/rometw2009030616424459.bmp

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You will notice, that the difference while standing and being steady is quiet small, but the difference while fighting is big. Without lower density the unit "explode" when ordered to attack (except when guardmode is on, first picture at "Fighting units" with standard density). You will also notice, that the Syrakosioi Hoplitai look (with and without lower density) while standing the same, that means that there must be another value (is this the right english word?) in the files to define the dense of a formation. I noticed this phenomenon also by the Ekdromoi, you can give them a lower density in the EDU files, but they still have their lose formation (pherhaps some experienced modder could tell me which other values define the foramtion density of a unit).

And about the balance... https://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2659/rometw2009030615495048.bmphttps://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7831/rometw2009030616480251.bmp
I used in both battles the same tactic (waiting, let them come, guardmode on, after 30 sec. after the fight started turn guardmode off, no outflanking). In the battle with standard density the enemy general died early, but the loses I suffered were still bigger then in the battle with lower density. If the enemy general had not died, I would have lost the battle, while there was no problem in the battle with lower density.

[the man with no name]

Defenitly include this in eb 1.3 plz.

[Phalanx300]

I agree. All Shieldwall/Phalanx units without Phalanx/Dense fighting units should definately have a tighter density.

[Woreczko]

You will notice, that the difference while standing and being steady is quiet small, but the difference while fighting is big. Without lower density the unit "explode" when ordered to attack (except when guardmode is on, first picture at "Fighting units" with standard density). You will also notice, that the Syrakosioi Hoplitai look (with and without lower density) while standing the same, that means that there must be another value (is this the right english word?) in the files to define the dense of a formation. I noticed this phenomenon also by the Ekdromoi, you can give them a lower density in the EDU files, but they still have their lose formation (pherhaps some experienced modder could tell me which other values define the foramtion density of a unit).

The spacing of soldiers in a unit, while in formation, is defined by (surprise surprise!) "spacing" attributes. These are four values - rank spacing, column spacing for both close and loose formation :) . Now, units who fight at "engage at will" are not considered "in formation", thus they don`t care about the spacing attribute. They do care about radius, which is by default 0.4 . That`s why in vanilla EB hopites seem to "explode" if ordered to fight, while not in guard mode.

[kekailoa]

Not really, a great line of Hoplites wouldn't be able to switch between loose and close 123. The units using secondary weapons were included for the fact that they were armed special. They would be able to use longswords in a shield wall. Just look at the vikings if you don't believe me.



Actually, the vikings switched between long blades for loose combat and the shield wall seaxe for close combat. This was a trait shared with the Saxons, who they were extremely similar to in tactics on battle. They probably copied the best of each other.

Am I right? :inquisitive:

[Phalanx300]

Then I gues all those Reenactors have it wrong.:sweatdrop:

[keravnos]

First post was updated a while ago, with mod link and unitlist

It seems you forgot the Saka Agema Hellenikon.

Anyways, I do like what you are creating, but I have to be against any effort to insert a "machine gun pilae" on any condition. Pilae were deffinitely dangerous, but not different or better than any of the javs carried back then (only the heavier ones, which too were carried by their enemies, see soliferrum). This means that the stats on missiles are fine as they are.

[Phalanx300]

You're totally right there Keravnos, Pilum were dangerous though that is usually overestimated.:2thumbsup:

And yeah, totally forgot the Saka Agema Hellenikon Hoplites, how foolish of me:shame:.

[Zett]

It seems you forgot the Saka Agema Hellenikon.


They are in since 0.1, its right that they have a extra EDU entry, but I counted them as Baktrion Agema in the unit list. I will edit the first post. done

Ceterum Censeo Romam esse delendam

[lonmzjia]

Question (and sorry if it has been asked): If i change the hoplite densities, will I have to start a new game to have it work / not screw up my current campaigns?

[Woreczko]

No, you don`t have to start a new campaign to make it work :)

[lonmzjia]

Another question, is this compatible with the EB 1.2 mini mod pack?

[Zett]

Another question, is this compatible with the EB 1.2 mini mod pack?

If the mini mod pack changes the EDU file (what I guess) it's not compatible. I will upload a vesion for the mini mod pack if I have some time.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

Edit: Density Mod 0.2 for EB 1.2 Mini Mod Pack (rtw.exe) (http://rapidshare.com/files/213343907/Density_Mod_0.2_for_EB1.2_Mini_Mod_Pack.rar)

EDUs are ready but filefront says
This function is currently down for maintenance and will be back shortly.
Sorry, I will go to bed (10.55pm in my timezone). Tomorrow is my 3rd last schoolday in my life (if I pass the exams), I want to enjoy my last schooldays.

Instruction: First install the EB 1.2 Mini Mod Pack, then copy the 'sp game edu backup' and the 'mp edu backup' folder in your <RTW directory>/EB folder and overwrite the existing edu files.

[Aper]

But they a Romani, they don't use shield wall.

:stunned:
...
Please read something about the battle of Strasbourg, and about the late roman army, NOW.
:shifty:

BTW, I fail to understand why should be impossible to use a spatha in shield-wall: sure, you cannot perform wide lateral cuts, and so? You still have plenty of handy techniques in your pocket.

(I'm not attacking you Zett, but I'm getting really annoyed by the videogamish approach to military history of many members, who should play less and study more before posting)

EDIT: maybe you were referring strictly to EB timeframe? In that case my apologies, because probably you were right

[Zett]

In the EB timeframe Romans and nearly all units with big shields could use some kind of shieldwall. I do not say that the Romans never used it (testudo was some kind of shieldwall too). But is was not their main fighting style. Hoplites for example where more often deployed in a phalanx/shieldwall formation then Roman soldiers (except the early Triarii, which fought similar to Greek Hoplites). I originally wanted to represent the Hoplitephalanx with this mod. I'm aware of other soldiers, who fought in the EB timeframe in a dense formation (how Phalanx300 already said: many Sweboz warriors).

Yes, you can use swords in shieldwalls, but a weapon with a longer range (spears,pikes) can be better used while holding the shieldwall formation. If you swing a sword (or axe) then you have to move your shield away and step a little out of the shieldwall to use its full power (in this moment you are not longer fighting in a shieldwall, you fight individually and expose the man next to you). If you only stab with the sword it would be possible.

I think it would make sense to speak only about EB timeframe, if this mod is only used to represent the fighting styles in this timeframe.:sweatdrop:

But I think we should not argue about which unit should get it and which not (at least not yet), I posted the mod links so you could test how it affects the balance. That's the mainproblem IMO. A lower density makes Hoplites and other units 'stronger'. And the question is, how to rebalance the game. Should all units with lower density get a lower attack? Or should they get a lower defence? Or higher costs and upkeep? And how low or high should the new stats be?:juggle2:

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Aper]

If you swing a sword (or axe) then you have to move your shield away and step a little out of the shieldwall to use its full power.

Not always "full power" is necessary... or desirable! But this discussion will surely get OT fast...

However, I feel like you guys are overestimating the matter a bit... I mean, if you give to hoplites 0.2 radius and -4 to attack (to counter the "light_spear" bug), why things shouldn't be balanced enough?

I hope to be wrong, but I fear all this microtesting will be a waste of time in the end...

About Romans and units depicted fighting in shield-wall, they can be included or not depending on how people want to portrait their style of fighting... Teorically they should be included, as all other soldiers who were trained to fight like a whole and not as individuals, but maybe THIS will turn out to be unbalancing, so for now I think you should stick to hoplites only.


pherhaps some experienced modder could tell me which other values define the foramtion density of a unit.

I hope you will find this useful

The Complete EDU Guide (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=88859&highlight=edu+guide)

[Zett]

However, I feel like you guys are overestimating the matter a bit... I mean, if you give to hoplites 0.2 radius and -4 to attack (to counter the "light_spear" bug), why things shouldn't be balanced enough?


I know the EDU guide and its comment about density:
[radius](may not be visible) : Hidden attribute radius of the unit. The default value is 0.4. It's the area surrounding each single soldier that he "occupies" as the engine perceives it (not visually that is). Small radius makes a unit fight better, in that it allows soldiers to fight more closely to each other, resulting in more men of the small-radius unit fighting against fewer of the enemy one's.

That's why I think, that -4 attack won't do it. The problem about density is, that nobody can say exactly what will happen if we give a unit a lower density. The standard value is 0.4, several elite Hoplites in the files I posted have a value of 0.2, which would mean that one soldier in a unit with 0.4 density would have to face two soldiers of a unit with 0.2 density. I'm not sure if you could say so, but for me this sounds like you could say, that in general the one soldier have to face another soldier with doubled attack and doubled lethality values.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Woreczko]

Zett is right, 0.2 density transforms itself into a massive bonus in close combat. In my own files, I decreased attack of spearmen by 4 points and gave them 0.18 lethality to compensate (spear is a big and powerful weapon after all) . When I tried to implement 0.2 density for some units, they lethality had to be decreased to 0.1 in order to retain balance between units.

In the end I resigned from fiddling with radius attribute. While it allows hoplite units to fight in truely close order, it also makes their formation impossible to break. I mean, look at the macedonian phalanxes. They are impervious, when keeping an orderly pike-wall, but it`s still possible to mess them up. If they formation gets messed up, they easily fell prey to other units. Hoplites with 0.2 radius have no such weakness however. They will keep their extremely close formation no matter, how badly they are disordered and from whatever side you attack them.

[Satyros]

So would this mean that we either have to play with short_pike hoplites and suffer some graphics flaws or implement a lower density value on units and turn them into super-glued units ?

Would a possible solution to the hoplite issue involve a complete remake of all stats for most hoplite ( and " hoplite like " units ) to be accurate ? If so , it'd take a lot of work I suppose .

Damn me for being incompetent at modding .

If anyone has being doing any fiddling with stats please report any results . I would really prefer my hoplites not to explode backwards when attacking .

Satyros

P.S. : Not wanting to be an ungrateful b****** or anything , are there , or were there any thoughts from the EB team concerning this issue ? Well I only ask because with the guard button on , they hardly are a serious attacking unit , they take the role of a makedonian phalanx , tieing down the enemy . Is the guard button the only way for a hoplite unit to retain any hoplite-like cohesion at all ? I'd be grateful if someone from the team answered this and if so , I promise not to nag any more and drop the whole issue . So there . :)

[Celtic_Punk]

Right you are, but concerning the Massaliotai: They abandon the Phalany pretty always as melee starts ;-)

no they don't. not for me at least. All my troops with two different melee weapons work completely fine. I've never had a problem with my men changing from spears to swords.

[Watchman]

I've found it quite workable to give most infantry a flat 0.25 radius (axe- and longswordsmen mostly got 0.3 and the so-called "proto-phalanx" units - Iphikratean hoplites, the Alpine phalanxes etc. - 0.2). The "spreading out" effect is pretty minimal even with very densely packed troops like the hoplites, and close observation suggests it has interesting and desirable effects on how the individual soldiers behave.
Just for consistency I also duly reduced the x-radius stat of all horses by 0.1, and on the off chance it matters at all gave all mounted soldiers a radius of 0.3. Better safe than...

[Celtic_Punk]

I'm giving this a bump because i'm interested in density tweeking. this discussion shouldn't die.