Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

[Βελισάριος]

The other thread was getting too confusing and clotted with too many different topics.

Therefore, I created this one expressly for the purpose of discussing the outcome of the various battles fought.
Fas est et ab hoste doceri. As the Romans would say.

Here are the replays of the battle fought so far:

To view:
Run EB, then go to "Load Game" and click "Load Battle Replay".

To view them, you first have to put them into your replay folder. That should be [RTW folder name]/EB/replays
[Or, apparently, if you have Vista, hell-knows-where.] If you don't have the folder, you can create it yourself.
Or, play any random battle you choose and the thread should create itself.

Just for fun

Ekdromoi suck (http://files.filefront.com/MevsPhalanxMarvrpy/;13384299;/fileinfo.html): Antisocialmunky and Phalanx300
Elephants galore (http://www.mediafire.com/?mzyn5kyajmj): IrishHitman (Macedonia) + tsidneku (Seleucid Empire) vs. Phalanx300 + antisocialmunkey (Roman Republic)
Cataphracts are useless (http://files.filefront.com/LOLKatssuckrpy/;13376727;/fileinfo.html) Antisocialmunky and Βελισάριος at the Temple of Artemis
Peltastai Makedonikoi FTW! Placeholder for that one that Anti and I forgot to save.
Greeks on a hill (http://files.filefront.com/GreeksonaHillrpy/;13376735;/fileinfo.html) Antisocialmunky and Βελισάριος at Thermoplyai
Macedonians at the Hot Gates (http://www.mediafire.com/?mdymyzyviic) IrishHitman + Potocello (Kingdom of Macedonia) vs. Lovejoy + Antisocialmunky (Roman Republic)
Macedonia vs. Rome (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=FU85Q1KQ) Ptotocello & Lovejoy vs. IrishHitman & Antisocialmunky.
First time for everything (http://www.freewebs.com/files_rings/RomaVictor.rpy) Alexanderthegreater vs Gabeed.
Manoeuvres, Manoeuvres (http://www.mediafire.com/?jygdwvnzzti) IrishHitman (Rome), Anti (KH) and Potocello (Macedonia). Victory to Irish.
Which one's the flank? (http://www.mediafire.com/?jinlmugqzq5) Potocello (Rome) vs. IrishHitman (Makedonia).
Which one's the flank, again? (http://www.mediafire.com/?mat01xyoday) Rematch and same factions as a above.
I'll give you something to flank! (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=LDFUR4JD) The rematch of the rematch, this time Potocello as Makedonia and Irish as Rome.
Shakedown at Abu Simbel (http://www.mediafire.com/file/yntow3izymj/PtolemaioivRomani.rpy) Irish as Rome versus Burebista (moi) as Ptolemaioi
You can't always surprise them (http://www.mediafire.com/?t5wzzzfwzez) Tolg & Burebista (Rome) vs. IrishHitman & Phalanx300 (Macedonia)
The controversial Phalanx box (http://www.mediafire.com/?jynyhyzuwyi), Phalanx300 (Rome) vs. IrishHitman (Macedonia) in... Babylon, of all places?
The Draw (http://www.mediafire.com/?gf01kyd1n5g) Irish & Potocello (Macedonians and Greeks, fighting together for the first time) vs. Tolg and Phalanx300 as Rome.
Confusion (http://www.mediafire.com/?azzmdyjnwyy) IrishHitman (Macedonia -left game early) - Potocello (KH) - Tolg (Rome) - Phalanx (Epeiros), whose idea was it to have a free-for-all, anyway?
Cavalry tactics (http://www.mediafire.com/file/ylndmtnowlm/TT02Rom.T-KH.Pc.rpy) Tolg vs. Potocello 1 (Rome vs. Koinon Hellenon)
Cavalry tactics II (http://www.mediafire.com/file/ancioz2djwi/TT03Rom.T-KH.Pc.rpy) Tolg vs. Potocello 2
Redemption (http://www.mediafire.com/?kltn23wk2zx) Fluvius Camillus trying to redeem himself by taking on IrishHitman's Companions.
Leonidas who? (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=d09f8a04e3a0a4b6d9d5c56d04dfa8b0e04e75f6e8ebb871) Me proving to Maion that I AM LEONIDAS! Ahem... bit of an inside joke there. Koinon Hellenon vs. Makedonia.
Mine's bigger than yours. (http://www.mediafire.com/file/m0idmginmnm/Nikator.sav) Nudists in Phrygia, Triangular formations, surprises everywhere. Βελισάριος vs. ASM.


Official Tournament battles:

Tolg vs. Phalanx300 (http://www.mediafire.com/file/fzfydnz4nji/TolgvsPhalanx0203.rpy) at Mount Olympus From the first round, Victory to Rome.
Flavius Camillus vs. Tsidneku (http://www.mediafire.com/?3dvx1u20ynn) near the Colossos of Rhodos. Victory to Pontos.
Blxz vs. Gabeed (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mznniw5nmm2) at Abu Simbel. Victory to Ptolemaioi.
Antisocialmunky vs. IrishHitman (http://files.filefront.com/ASMvsIrish3+6+9rpy/;13421868;/fileinfo.html) at Samos. Victory to Rome.
Βελισάριος vs. Maion Maroneios (http://files.filefront.com/MaionvsBelisarios+11+3rpy/;13447360;/fileinfo.html) in Makedonia. Victory to the home team (Makedonia).

March Tournament score so far: ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ 3 - Romani 2

[tsidneku]

Sorry, Bure -- or someone, kindly refresh my Latin for me. I'm rusty.



Fas est et ab hoste doceri. As the Romans would say.


Fas is undeclined -- I assume it's either nominative or accusative.
"It is right/just to teach _______ from the enemy."

I can't figure out where the et goes and why doceri -- to teach/show -- is used?

[desert]

I saw that quote in EB, I think. If I remember correctly, it means "It is right to learn from the enemy."

[Nachtmeister]

Sorry, Bure -- or someone, kindly refresh my Latin for me. I'm rusty.



Fas is undeclined -- I assume it's either nominative or accusative.
"It is right/just to teach _______ from the enemy."

I can't figure out where the et goes and why doceri -- to teach/show -- is used?


That's "learn", not "teach" ...

Thus, by literal meaning, the whole phrase goes
"It is appropriate to learn from the enemy".

See, the Romans were themselves aware of the fact that their greatness came from borrowing different bits of know-how from their various enemies, thus making the enemies their subjects.


*EDIT* Argh, desert you seem to have faster fingers than I.

[tsidneku]

Nevermind, I'm a dumbass. Made a mistake -- doceri is the passive infinitive; not the active. And "et" is translated "even" here.

"It is right/appropriate to be taught even by an/the enemy."

[Potocello]

This is really nice perhaps a balloon is in order?

[Βελισάριος]

"It is right to learn even from the enemy." That's right.

Funny how I made the thread to discuss battles and we start by discussing Latin :clown:

[Blxz]

Next battle done.
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mznniw5nmm2
beautiful battle, pure majesty. can't believe i lost so damn badly.

[Vasiliyi]

I have tried to download the videos to watch but for some reason they arent allowing me to play them. what program are you useing to watch them

[A Very Super Market]

I have no idea how to view them...

[antisocialmunky]

EB Single -> load -> watch battle replay .

[Βελισάριος]

You run EB, you go to "Load Game" click "Load Battle Replay".
They're not videos, they're RTW battle replay files.

To view them, you first have to put them into your replay folder. That should be [RTW folder name]/EB/replays
Or, apparently, if you have Vista, hell-knows-where.
If you don't have the folder, you can create it yourself.

[A Very Super Market]

Oh good god, that was stupid of me.

Thanks, mate!

[Gabeed]

Next battle done.
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mznniw5nmm2
beautiful battle, pure majesty. can't believe i lost so damn badly.

It was a fun battle. I think it hurt most for you when my pantodopoi chased your cavalry on the left flank away (they must have been on skirmish mode, I think). I'm sure when we have our inevitable rematch you'll be ready for them. :egypt:

Incidentally, Burebista, that battle was the official tournament one between Blxz and I. Just to make that clear.

[Tolg]

You run EB, you go to "Load Game" click "Load Battle Replay".
They're not videos, they're RTW battle replay files.

To view them, you first have to put them into your replay folder. That should be [RTW folder name]/EB/replays
Or, apparently, if you have Vista, hell-knows-where.
If you don't have the folder, you can create it yourself.

Why should Vista change the location of folders/files which have absolutly nothing to do with the OS?

BTW, I'm using Vista, it's the same folder.

[Maion Maroneios]

Guys, I believe we should discuss the first round of the tournament. I'm actually surprised that no one actually cared to do this, because I can that we have some mistakes on the side of the Romani. Don't take me wrong, it hasn't anything to do with me being on the side of the Hellenes. Let me explain what I mean in points:

1) No Hastati, just Principes/Triarii on Tolg's side
2) No 'historical' numbers of troops, and by that I mean the main Roman core. Just Principes and many Triarii, the latter being only used (historically) when the situation was very, very dire AFAIK. Also, since Tolg used Pedites, he should also have used Hastati Samnitici.
3) Too many Equites Extraordinarii. WAY too many.
4) No levy phalanx on Phalanx300's side, but a reasonably balanced army nevertheless.

For those reasons, I believe this battle should be fought again. Don't want to be too strict from the start, though I hope people can understand my points and consider them at least.

Maion

[tsidneku]

Maion, while I agree with you about the historical nature of army composition, I think it will be hard to impose accurate army composition unless you lay out strictly composed armies to choose from.

Contestants will always try to form an unique/elite/most effective army. A common trend, that I myself admit to submitting to as well, is the inclusion of massive amounts of cavalry -- 4-6 units. One can argue that ratio to the standardized core of any army is massive.

[Tolg]

Guys, I believe we should discuss the first round of the tournament. I'm actually surprised that no one actually cared to do this, because I can that we have some mistakes on the side of the Romani. Don't take me wrong, it hasn't anything to do with me being on the side of the Hellenes. Let me explain what I mean in points:

1) No Hastati, just Principes/Triarii on Tolg's side
2) No 'historical' numbers of troops, and by that I mean the main Roman core. Just Principes and many Triarii, the latter being only used (historically) when the situation was very, very dire AFAIK. Also, since Tolg used Pedites, he should also have used Hastati Samnitici.
3) Too many Equites Extraordinarii. WAY too many.
4) No levy phalanx on Phalanx300's side, but a reasonably balanced army nevertheless.

For those reasons, I believe this battle should be fought again. Don't want to be too strict from the start, though I hope people can understand my points and consider them at least.

Maion


If we had made 100% (or even 65%) historical armies a rule we would have to reduce the money eve further to even give the Romans a chance of winning. Even with my elite army I don't use 40000 (still ~3500 left) This however would mean that the Greeks could only choose between having ~8 moderate units or a levy/almost levy full stack.

Basically the problem is that roman armies are much cheaper than Greek ones. All the more as the Romans have no real elite units. (Pedites are very good, but not at the level of Hetaroi.)

"Historical Tournament" sounds nice, but I doubt that it is even possible wit the RTW engine.

[antisocialmunky]

We can't really make realistic armies as the Romani because of money issues and the fact that the Successor Cavalry arms are ridiculously powerful and hard to counter with Equites due to them not having a AP weapon.

The closest I've come to it is 6 Hastati, 6 Principles, 3 Triarii, and 5 Equites Extraordinary with everything but the Hastati chevroned.

[Βελισάριος]

Maion, thanks for raising the issue.

If you look in the first message in the initial thread, you'll see your "historical army" guide (which we'll need to update for the Romans and some of the Diadochoi as well), but it's under "guidelines".

Much as I'd like perfectly historical battles, it's just not possible with the current engine, regardless of how hard the EB team might try.

So, while Tolg won't be getting any historical accuracy points, his victory point is valid.

It's nice to finally get some polemyc on the topic of battles, though.

[Silence Hunter]

We can't really make realistic armies as the Romani because of money issues and the fact that the Successor Cavalry arms are ridiculously powerful and hard to counter with Equites due to them not having a AP weapon.

The closest I've come to it is 6 Hastati, 6 Principles, 3 Triarii, and 5 Equites Extraordinary with everything but the Hastati chevroned.

Are the updates allowed? Or do you just mean one bronze chevron as mentioned in the rules?

[Phalanx300]

I only give chevrons for units to roleplay as another unit, like giving 1 unit of Spartans a chevron to play as the Hippeis. And one unit of Ekdromoi for the Skiritai(peltastai woukd be better but its not included for KH for some reason, alongside the Toxotai!:furious3:)

[Aemilius Paulus]

Someone should use Fraps next time, so that the battle may be uploaded to YouTube. I hope that the lag created by it will not be too much. Oh, and also, I have heard that YouTube has a 15-minute limit, but I have seen much, much longer videos. How so?

[Gabeed]

Someone should use Fraps next time, so that the battle may be uploaded to YouTube. I hope that the lag created by it will not be too much. Oh, and also, I have heard that YouTube has a 15-minute limit, but I have seen much, much longer videos. How so?

We could use Fraps with the replay videos, and even add commentary a la Prince of Macedon. And I think Youtube has a 10 minute limit, though I've also seen longer videos before . . .

[Aemilius Paulus]

We could use Fraps with the replay videos, and even add commentary a la Prince of Macedon. And I think Youtube has a 10 minute limit, though I've also seen longer videos before . . .
Well, yes, that is what I was saying. Most of those videos that were longer happened to be of elevated importance, such as that 59 minute Time magazine interview of Putin or 40-minute lectures of some (nutjob) professor who thought that there was a Golden Age before Neolithic that was ended by a meteor (go figure). However, I have seen better lectures as well.

What about MegaVideo or DailyMotion? What limits do they have?

[Ibrahim]

Sorry, Bure -- or someone, kindly refresh my Latin for me. I'm rusty.



Fas is undeclined -- I assume it's either nominative or accusative.
"It is right/just to teach _______ from the enemy."

I can't figure out where the et goes and why doceri -- to teach/show -- is used?


"It is right to be taught from the enemy"

Doceri is not a normal indictive infinitive.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Important practice battle (copied from main thread):

Ave Competitors

To redeem myself I have practiced my tactics against another greek foe!

Fluvius Camillus vs Irishhitman

Replay of this practice match:
http://www.mediafire.com/?kltn23wk2zx

It was a very exciting (and long) battle.

Polybian Romani versus Makedonia

I employed the same tactics from the last fight against Tsidneku, this time I comitted no great errors, my tactic worked perfectly this time.

Friend and Foe, learn from this fight and use these tactics on your own risk of defeat.

First Part of the Fight
I approached the Makedonian foe, when his missile infantry targeted me I was making a run for it. I split my reserves to join the flankers. Only the principes stood in the center, evading the slow phalanx. My flanking troops were superior to his and the Makedonian right flank crumbled soon. The cavalry fight was were I also had the upper hand. After the flankers of the enemy were massacred and both our cavalry was weared out, we both withdrew from combat, reforming our shattered lines.

Second Part (long to watch)
As I watched how we both formed our lines, I see the enemy form a defensive circle, immediately I attack the enemy to stop them from gaining a strong position. A extremely long cavalry chase and minor infantry skirmishes take place. After a long chase my cavalry stops trying to kill the remaining Makedonian cavalry. Then I attack the main phalanx lines from multiple sides, I withdraw sometimes but eventually we came into long melee, wearied from the chase, my general loses his life. Enveloping the remaining phalanx we fight to the death, using some troops to fend off the cavalry. The phalanx slowly dies, then the cavalry charges a final time and my infantry defeats the cavalry. The phalanx is then doomed, they fight to the very end. Finally, victory!

We shall remember the noble commander who lost his life and hunt down the escaped enemy commander!

That was the fight!

~Roma Victrix

[Aemilius Paulus]

So you won?

[Nachtmeister]

That's "learn", not "teach" ...

Thus, by literal meaning, the whole phrase goes
"It is appropriate to learn from the enemy".

See, the Romans were themselves aware of the fact that their greatness came from borrowing different bits of know-how from their various enemies, thus making the enemies their subjects.


*EDIT* Argh, desert you seem to have faster fingers than I.


Nevermind, I'm a dumbass. Made a mistake -- doceri is the passive infinitive; not the active. And "et" is translated "even" here.

"It is right/appropriate to be taught even by an/the enemy."


This is really nice perhaps a balloon is in order?


"It is right to be taught from the enemy"

Doceri is not a normal indictive infinitive.

Yea, my bad a bit further up - otherwise it would be "fas est et ab hoste discere"...
Why not in keeping with the EB players' spirit make it "et ab hoste discere iuvat" in the first place...
But you definitely *can* phrase it "It is right to be taught by the enemy" unless I have it all
totally backwards...?

:hijacked: :laugh4:

[tsidneku]

Yea, my bad a bit further up - otherwise it would be "fas est et ab hoste discere"...
Why not in keeping with the EB players' spirit make it "et ab hoste discere iuvat" in the first place...
But you definitely *can* phrase it "It is right to be taught by the enemy" unless I have it all
totally backwards...?

:hijacked: :laugh4:

lol @ the Latin discourse.
Yes, they are mean the same thing idiomatically. Ab hoste as an ablative can be translated from/by/of the enemy.

Regarding your question about why Burebista didn't phrase it another way is because that particular line is from Ovid. "fas est et ab hoste doceri" -- and now that I think about it, it's because its probably in meter and that's the word order is so abnormal (not that word order means anything in Latin poetry.. lol).

[Ibrahim]

(not that word order means anything in Latin poetry.. lol).

did it ever mea anything in normal writing in the first place?:juggle2:

[tsidneku]

did it ever mea anything in normal writing in the first place?:juggle2:

:( No, but at least most Roman authors that write in prose are loosely consistent (ugh.. that's so oxymoronic) in their nesting subclauses and subject-object-verb form.

[Maion Maroneios]

OK, though I still stand against the Romani using too much cavalry. It was, after all, a weak point of theirs. Especially during the early years of the Res Publica.

Maion

[SwissBarbar]

My suggestion:

1 x General (40 in Multiplayer)
1 x Leves (240)
1 x Accensi (120)
2 x Hastati (324)
2 x Principes (324)
1 x Triarii (162)
2 x Eqvites Romani (200)

2 x Akontistai (480)
2 x Hastati Samnitici (160)
1 x Pezoi Brettoi (160)
1 x Aichmetai Leukanoi (160)
4 x Eqvites Campanici (400)


That's the Roman full stack I fought against some hours ago, representing 2 Legions + Allied forces.

(....The two Roman legions deployed 3’200 Hastati in the first battle line and 3’200 Principes in the second. 1’600 Triarii made the elite- reserve for cases of emergency. Traditionally weak, the Roman cavalry only was composed of 2’000 Eqvites.... The Samnites contributed 3’200 Hastati Samnitici, the Bruttii 1’600 Pezoi Brettioi and the Lucanians had sent 1’600 Aichmetai Leukanoi. Since Roman cavalry generally was quite weak, their allies traditionally had to field a way larger amount of cavalry. In this case the Campanians contributed 4’000 Eqvites Campanici. In addition 4’800 Akontistai from the former Hellenic cities in Italy arrayed as skirmishers....)

text from the attached story, which explains the amount of cavalry...

Please note that this is representing a Camillan army.....

[Lucio Domicio Aureliano]

[QUOTE=Maion Maroneios;2160544 Especially during the early years of the Res Publica.

Maion[/QUOTE]

Maion. It´s very true what you´re saying but if i´m not mistaken the roman wars against the hellenes were in the middle to late republic (Except Pyrrus). 200bc.... Another point is that it´s not easy to do this kind of limitation unless other factions are also limited. For instance in the Makedonia-Roman wars, Makedonia was no longer a cavalary powerhouse as it once was.( Companion cavalry :2thumbsup:)

[antisocialmunky]

You guys should play with historically accurate armies. I'll keep mine just the way I like it.

[Maion Maroneios]

Maion. It´s very true what you´re saying but if i´m not mistaken the roman wars against the hellenes were in the middle to late republic (Except Pyrrus). 200bc.... Another point is that it´s not easy to do this kind of limitation unless other factions are also limited. For instance in the Makedonia-Roman wars, Makedonia was no longer a cavalary powerhouse as it once was.( Companion cavalry :2thumbsup:)
True, but then again, we shouldn't spam units that are very effective. I don't think my enemy would like me fielding Argyraspides only as my main battle line. Not that I have enough money for it, but ok :tongue:

Maion

[Βελισάριος]

You know... for April, I'd like to include a "Historically Ridiculous League". With 100k+ funds, where you can recruit an army of only elites and see how that works out.

Just for giggles.

And Maion, why are you using the Epeiros sig? :p

[satalexton]

quick! change it before they conscript u into a penal taxis!

[Gabeed]

I have an idea that would be cool to implement at the end of this month's tournament, or maybe at the end of this week: We put up a map where the battles chosen by the jury were fought (Abu Simbel, Mount Olympus, etc), and show who won there, Greek or Roman. For example, That will determine where the next battles will be fought. For example, Tolg's victory at Mount Olympus means the Romans now control Thessalia and southern Macedonia. His next battle (assuming the Romans are on the defense next round) will be holding the region, or perhaps defending a region nearby. It might be hard to put together, but it would make the tournament into an AAR of sorts, and would show where the Hellenes and Romans are winning in this great pan-Mediterranean war. Just a thought. :idea2:

[Tolg]

You know... for April, I'd like to include a "Historically Ridiculous League". With 100k+ funds, where you can recruit an army of only elites and see how that works out.

Just for giggles.

And Maion, why are you using the Epeiros sig? :p

With all factions I suppose?

(except perhaps HA-based armies)


Also, may I ask for hand signal who'd be interested in this kind of tournament? (No official registrations yet, just a general sign of interest)

*raises hand*



I have an idea that would be cool to implement at the end of this month's tournament, or maybe at the end of this week: We put up a map where the battles chosen by the jury were fought (Abu Simbel, Mount Olympus, etc), and show who won there, Greek or Roman. For example, That will determine where the next battles will be fought. For example, Tolg's victory at Mount Olympus means the Romans now control Thessalia and southern Macedonia. His next battle (assuming the Romans are on the defense next round) will be holding the region, or perhaps defending a region nearby. It might be hard to put together, but it would make the tournament into an AAR of sorts, and would show where the Hellenes and Romans are winning in this great pan-Mediterranean war. Just a thought. :idea2:

Interesting indeed, but I think we will have trouble finding the right maps. After all they can't be too uneven and too many trees would put the Phalanx at somewhat of a disadvantage (Though I can't say how much, I'm not good at using Phalanx) and it would be an advantage for the side in defense.

On the other hand this system would solve the problem with the maps for the next round. (Or do you want all battles to be on the (presumably) few maps in Italy?)

[Phalanx300]

I like that idea Gabeed.

Maybe in the future we can even have a campaign map (just a customisable paint map) and fight our battles for control of territories? :sweatdrop: It would make battles have more importance, since losings meens losing a territory, or something similar.





And Maion, why are you using the Epeiros sig? :p

Well, Epeiros is the true succesor of Makedonia under Alexander:2thumbsup:. Pyrrhus, being his cousin and one of the greatest generals really makes Epeiros the new Makedonia for me:whip:. And they have Pyrrhus!:sweatdrop:

I gues I'm the only more Epeiros then Makedonia fan around.:clown:




On those 100k battles, I would probably participate for my love of EB but I would rather see a lower denarii limit for more balanced armies where using medium troops and possibly levy troops is more comon then elite troops.

[Maion Maroneios]

quick! change it before they conscript u into a penal taxis!
:tongue:


You know... for April, I'd like to include a "Historically Ridiculous League". With 100k+ funds, where you can recruit an army of only elites and see how that works out.

Just for giggles.

And Maion, why are you using the Epeiros sig? :p
Cool idea :yes: As for the sig, is there a problem with that? I just like it more than the others. Plus, the Epeirotai are Hellenes, so...


Well, Epeiros is the true succesor of Makedonia under Alexander:2thumbsup:. Pyrrhus, being his cousin and one of the greatest generals really makes Epeiros the new Makedonia for me:whip:. And they have Pyrrhus!:sweatdrop:
:yes:

Maion

[Βελισάριος]

Gabeed, that's an interesting idea, I'm not sure how or if we'd be able to implement it, but we'll give it some thought.

And Tolg, yes, this might well be the next "all-faction" tournament.

And Maion, I was just asking because you're such an avid Makedonia fan and it was curious that you chose the Epeirote sig over the Makedonian one (the one with Alexander's head in it).
But I perfectly understand, that's probably my favourite sig.

I should make some more for the Romani players, though... and I might have the screenies to do that now.

[Fluvius Camillus]

OK, though I still stand against the Romani using too much cavalry. It was, after all, a weak point of theirs. Especially during the early years of the Res Publica.

Maion

Indeed you are right Maion, believing the ultra-realistic EB descriptions I must say use of campanians may be justified, but the use of around 4 groups of Equites Extraordinarii seems a bit out of place. But believing that Phillipos V or Perseus used the phalanx armies in the style of Megas Alexandros with a large hetairoi wing is not true also. That idea is probably outdated in the wars of the Republic against the later Makedonia. The late Kings relied more on making the phalanx heavier, making the phalanx even stronger from the front instead of using a large (also expensive to upkeep) large cavalry arm, following the ideas of Alexandros' sword and shield principle.

[antisocialmunky]

The Macedonians Reformed Phalanx is ridiculous. I'm not even sure how, but they are. Too bad I'll never actually be able to fight one. :-p

[IrishHitman]

You guys should play with historically accurate armies. I'll keep mine just the way I like it.

Well said.

[IrishHitman]

Indeed you are right Maion, believing the ultra-realistic EB descriptions I must say use of campanians may be justified, but the use of around 4 groups of Equites Extraordinarii seems a bit out of place. But believing that Phillipos V or Perseus used the phalanx armies in the style of Megas Alexandros with a large hetairoi wing is not true also. That idea is probably outdated in the wars of the Republic against the later Makedonia. The late Kings relied more on making the phalanx heavier, making the phalanx even stronger from the front instead of using a large (also expensive to upkeep) large cavalry arm, following the ideas of Alexandros' sword and shield principle.

2 Thessalians and 2 Hets is a more realistic set up, provided there are at least eight phalanx units.

[antisocialmunky]

Don't you usually carry 4 cav, 6 phalangites, and 6 flankgaurds along with some slingers/archers which makes cavalry around 11-13% of your army?

I take a lot more cavalry though. If we wanted to be realistic, we'd take < 10% which seems like the proportions used by both sides during the Macedonian Wars.

[Maion Maroneios]

Indeed you are right Maion, believing the ultra-realistic EB descriptions I must say use of campanians may be justified, but the use of around 4 groups of Equites Extraordinarii seems a bit out of place. But believing that Phillipos V or Perseus used the phalanx armies in the style of Megas Alexandros with a large hetairoi wing is not true also. That idea is probably outdated in the wars of the Republic against the later Makedonia. The late Kings relied more on making the phalanx heavier, making the phalanx even stronger from the front instead of using a large (also expensive to upkeep) large cavalry arm, following the ideas of Alexandros' sword and shield principle.
That's also correct, though I'm pretty sure the Makedones where more able to field a powerful cavalry arm than the Romani were that time. Anyway.


The Macedonians Reformed Phalanx is ridiculous. I'm not even sure how, but they are. Too bad I'll never actually be able to fight one. :-p
Would you like to have a dance with me then? :evilgrin:


2 Thessalians and 2 Hets is a more realistic set up, provided there are at least eight phalanx units.
Try that and if you don't end up in the red (funds) pretty quickly, then I will even adapt use such an army. The problem is, Hetairoi and Thessalikoi are very expensive (4,000+ mnai), so you can't have another 8 phalangites on top of that. Believe me. Unless, of course, you are going to count on levies to fight the Romaioi legions. Even a fanatic Makedonian Strategos (like me :tongue:) knows that's suicide.


Don't you usually carry 4 cav, 6 phalangites, and 6 flankgaurds along with some slingers/archers which makes cavalry around 11-13% of your army?
I do, though against more flexible armies (like Romaioi) I field 4 phalangites.

Maion

[Phalanx300]

All this talking about Historical armies remind me of this tread, it was going to be a EB guide with Historical correct armies. It had Romani and Makedonian armies, I reallly liked that one. It should definately be survived!

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=106523&highlight=Unofficial+EB+Manual

[Blxz]

Why should Vista change the location of folders/files which have absolutly nothing to do with the OS?

BTW, I'm using Vista, it's the same folder.

Ahh but vista in its beautiful simplicity has two separate folders for replays because rome (and other games/programs...but not all of them) can be found in two locations on your computer. There is a folder called AppData that is in the (yourcomputersname) folder in the top right of the 'standard vista' start menu. In that is a folder called local and then another folder called VirtualStore AND THEN you have your programs files folders etc.

No idea how it works but I can have one replay saved in each folder but in game I can access both replays, and manually deleteing the main rome folder allows me to still get all my stuff back...most of it. AND (!!!!!) if saving a replay from in the game it will always save it into the Appdata/virtualstore replay folder but not into the 'traditional where i actually installed my game' replay folder.

Anyone explain whats going on? Or care for that matter?

[IrishHitman]

Don't you usually carry 4 cav, 6 phalangites, and 6 flankgaurds along with some slingers/archers which makes cavalry around 11-13% of your army?

I take a lot more cavalry though. If we wanted to be realistic, we'd take < 10% which seems like the proportions used by both sides during the Macedonian Wars.

I only take six phalanx units as we're restricted to 40k cash.
I am referring to an Alexandrian Army, not a Macedonian Wars one.

[Tolg]

Ahh but vista in its beautiful simplicity has two separate folders for replays because rome (and other games/programs...but not all of them) can be found in two locations on your computer. There is a folder called AppData that is in the (yourcomputersname) folder in the top right of the 'standard vista' start menu. In that is a folder called local and then another folder called VirtualStore AND THEN you have your programs files folders etc.

No idea how it works but I can have one replay saved in each folder but in game I can access both replays, and manually deleteing the main rome folder allows me to still get all my stuff back...most of it. AND (!!!!!) if saving a replay from in the game it will always save it into the Appdata/virtualstore replay folder but not into the 'traditional where i actually installed my game' replay folder.

Anyone explain whats going on? Or care for that matter?


No clue why it works this way, but you shouldn't install RTW/EB in the program files folder. It causes CTDs and other problems.

Also RTW/EB will not appear in AppData if you don't install it to program files.


(BTW, AppData usually is the folder used to save your preferences etc)

[Zim]

Does it work that way for XP? All of my Total War games and mods have always been put in the default folder (in the case of Rome, "The Creative Assembly" in my programs folder). I haven't had much in the way of ctds as far as I can tell (since installing fixes) but if it will cause problems eventually I can try to move RTW...


No clue why it works this way, but you shouldn't install RTW/EB in the program files folder. It causes CTDs and other problems.

Also RTW/EB will not appear in AppData if you don't install it to program files.


(BTW, AppData usually is the folder used to save your preferences etc)

[soup_alex]

I've seen other games unpacking random shite to various other locations other than the path I specified they should install to (and this with XP), but I'd always thought it was just publishers or developers or whoever pandering to stupid/ignorant customers who want everything done for them automatically and everything put away in neat little folders labelled "My Games" or "My Music" or "My Pictures". Now I'm not sure it isn't more to do with Microsoft trying to make their OS more network-friendly (I remember when "My Documents" was just that, now it has to be "drive letter:\Documents and Settings\username\My Documents". Thank Zeus I can run 98SE on a virtual machine!)

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

I have an idea that would be cool to implement at the end of this month's tournament, or maybe at the end of this week: We put up a map where the battles chosen by the jury were fought (Abu Simbel, Mount Olympus, etc), and show who won there, Greek or Roman. For example, That will determine where the next battles will be fought. For example, Tolg's victory at Mount Olympus means the Romans now control Thessalia and southern Macedonia. His next battle (assuming the Romans are on the defense next round) will be holding the region, or perhaps defending a region nearby. It might be hard to put together, but it would make the tournament into an AAR of sorts, and would show where the Hellenes and Romans are winning in this great pan-Mediterranean war. Just a thought. :idea2:

:balloon2: For you. I will try my hardest to convince the other Jury members for this excellent way to bring even more RP to the tournament. Well done, sir.

[Gabeed]

Ah, thank you! And a balloon! My time spent here has been little, so I can only guess as to the immense respect balloon-adorners hold.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

I think it would be a good idea if you instituted a mandatory levy rule. My suggestion is that at least 4 units in every army are made of levy quality units just to prevent the use of excessively strong and ahistorical armies. "Levy" quality, of course, is still open to definition, but of course that means anything less than a Principes spam for Romans.

Oh and a nice idea there about the battlegrounds.

[antisocialmunky]

Well, that hsould be the proportion of elites to regular units.

2 Hastati + 2 Principlies = 1 Triari which is the historic proportion. The real issue is cavalry since you can't counter cavalry except with more cavalry effectively. That being said, the Romans have only one cavalry unit with AP and can effectively anti-cavalry.

[Phalanx300]

Yes, cavalry should be somewhat limited. 5 Units is a bit much compared to the other units, and I also see Rome using alot of elites.

Also I've read that for the Romans Camillan units can be used for Polybian and Marian and Polybian for Marian. Why is this? Wasn't this tourney supposed to give us a somewhat Historical look at Phalanx vs Legion warfare? All these elites and different time units mixing together isn't really helping it.:sweatdrop:

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Triarii can effectively counter cavalry any day.

[Silence Hunter]

Triarii can effectively counter cavalry any day.

I was going to say exactly the same! Cavalry spam is not necessary to defeat opponents cavalry. Spearmen are much better in doing this. Btw cavalry superiority doesn't mean you are going to win. Battle of Magnesia is a fine example of this.

[Lucio Domicio Aureliano]

It´s a very tricky situation try to limit the number of elite units/cavalary because, just like tsidneku pointed, if you reduce this units/cavalary number, you´re effectively reduce one of the strengh of the Romans( very good quality units at lower cost). Therefore, i believe, reducing the avaibable number of elites/cavalary units must be follow by a reduce of the amount of mnai since with less cavalry/units and the same money, the Greek factions can focus on their more elite troops.
Having said that my opinion is the same as tsidneku ones which is; the balance is good. For what i can tell both factons are winning battles.
Nevertheless it´s very appealing historical armies but, from what i can tell, the tournament has already started and it´s not right to change rules for either sides now.

[Gabeed]

I think (assuming that this particular tournament is going to last for the next couple weeks) that we should stick to the rules that Burebista posted until this tournament is complete.

[antisocialmunky]

Triarii are can only area deny and counter. They can't actually fight the cavalry unless the cavalry feel like it. So it turns into a merry go round of death where the Triarii constantly shift to deny an attack vector for the cavalry. However, usually at some point the cavalry end up hitting the Triarii before they can brace and kill about 20% of them before running away immediately. Then 2 more of those hits cause them to rout, then they hit the back of your lines and its game. If you're stupid enough to give chase with your spearmen, they just pull them away form your line and go around them and its game.

Now, a combined arms approach of Triarii and Cavalry does work pretty well but the enemy cavalry usually throws in infantry of its own because its so friggin slow. The best infantry to use counter enemy cavalry is probably fast spear/AP armed light infantry. I've been experimenting with using those elite Post-Marian Skirmishers and those actually do work well but they cost way too much. What usually happens is that the cavalry hit each other so the infantry aren't plowed over and then the infantry join. At this point the defending cavalry usually withdraws and tries to out maneuver the enemy. Then attacking cav usually withdraws as well to either hit the enemy's flank or counter the enemy's movements. A good example of this is Irish on Samos. It took a combination of unfair terrain features, and a whole game's length of chasing those companions around to win. And even then, he didn't win by very much.

But, there's one more thing you can do against cavalry. If you throw in some sort of long range missile unit(sligners are best) then a group of spear infantry and screening cavalry can effectively defeat superior quality enemy cavalry without resorting to ridiculous cheese. The thing is that the Romans can't do that so it is what it is.

Theres one more problem. The Romans don't have any AP Lance armed cavalry other than the Italic allied ones. If you use anything else well the Companions can literally shrug it off so it becomes a game of avoid the Companions and try to deliver one devastating charge before they catch up and destroy them.

You can try and prove me wrong and play me but I don't think I am.

[IrishHitman]

I was going to say exactly the same! Cavalry spam is not necessary to defeat opponents cavalry. Spearmen are much better in doing this. Btw cavalry superiority doesn't mean you are going to win. Battle of Magnesia is a fine example of this.

Elite cavalry can defeat unsupported Triarii with ease...


Try that and if you don't end up in the red (funds) pretty quickly, then I will even adapt use such an army. The problem is, Hetairoi and Thessalikoi are very expensive (4,000+ mnai), so you can't have another 8 phalangites on top of that. Believe me. Unless, of course, you are going to count on levies to fight the Romaioi legions. Even a fanatic Makedonian Strategos (like me ) knows that's suicide.

I'm not a fan of the 40k limit.

[Gabeed]

I wish I had saved a replay of mine against Irish from yesterday, it would show that tons of cavalry is not essential for defeating the Greeks. I was the Romans, he was Macedon. I'm a fan of levy meat shields, so I used several velites. These velites, once out of missiles, were dedicated to keeping the hetairoi away, along with some triarii. By absorbing the hetairoi charges again and again, I had enough time to dismantle his infantry with my principes and pedites while his cavalry smashed against my light troops. My troops didn't run because I keep my general near the places of the greatest need with a general's bodyguard, and his morale bonus stopped them from fleeing. The result near the end was his infantry all destroyed, and he had only his hetairoi left against a great amount of my army. My only cavalry was 3-4 units of Equites Romani, who engaged with the hetairoi very few times.

Nothing against Irish's brilliant hetairoi movements, though, if he had had Agranians on the flanks rather than hoplitai, I very well may have lost. :sweatdrop:

[IrishHitman]

I wish I had saved a replay of mine against Irish from yesterday, it would show that tons of cavalry is not essential for defeating the Greeks. I was the Romans, he was Macedon. I'm a fan of levy meat shields, so I used several velites. These velites, once out of missiles, were dedicated to keeping the hetairoi away, along with some triarii. By absorbing the hetairoi charges again and again, I had enough time to dismantle his infantry with my principes and pedites while his cavalry smashed against my light troops. My troops didn't run because I keep my general near the places of the greatest need with a general's bodyguard, and his morale bonus stopped them from fleeing. The result near the end was his infantry all destroyed, and he had only his hetairoi left against a great amount of my army. My only cavalry was 3-4 units of Equites Romani, who engaged with the hetairoi very few times.

Nothing against Irish's brilliant hetairoi movements, though, if he had had Agranians on the flanks rather than hoplitai, I very well may have lost. :sweatdrop:

Again, the Agrianians are too expensive to field en masse...
The cash limit hits the Greeks much harder than the Romans.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Antisocialmunky,

Actually the best strategy would be, theoretically, to keep the triarii braced and protecting the rear of your infantry lines all along. This way the only manner the Hetairoi can attack is to smash through their own lines, which is not good for public health.

And do you realize that the Romans have a very good selection of AP cavalry early on? Equites Campanici are faster than the Hetairoi and can mow them down well in a fight because they are done right for it. I would not waste money with expensive chargers if they will spend most of their time fighting other cavalry.


Again, the Agrianians are too expensive to field en masse...
The cash limit hits the Greeks much harder than the Romans.

Every Hellenic faction can more or less spam levy phalanxes. Phalanxes don't need to be of particularly good quality when you're not facing other phalanxes or have a good cavalry arm.

[IrishHitman]

Every Hellenic faction can more or less spam levy phalanxes. Phalanxes don't need to be of particularly good quality when you're not facing other phalanxes or have a good cavalry arm.

That's great normally, but their morale is too low when "penetration" is used...

[Tolg]

I think (assuming that this particular tournament is going to last for the next couple weeks) that we should stick to the rules that Burebista posted until this tournament is complete.

That's what I think as well. Or at least until the first round is over.


The cash limit hits the Greeks much harder than the Romans.

It only hits the Greeks. I just checked, using my standard army I still got 5007 mnai left (not ~3500 which I said earlier). But with more money or even without an limit the Romans would be utterly destroyed by Greek elites. (Imagine a 6 Hellenic Catphracts, 2 Cata. Eles, 6 Agryaspides, 2 Toxotai Syriakoi, 4 Peltastai Makedonikoi army.)

[tsidneku]

Antisocialmunky,

Actually the best strategy would be, theoretically, to keep the triarii braced and protecting the rear of your infantry lines all along. This way the only manner the Hetairoi can attack is to smash through their own lines, which is not good for public health.

I haven't played many Roman players as Romans (rather played against some Greeks practicing as Romans), but so far -- Munky is pretty much the only one I have seen that lines up his Triarii in the rear, reversed to brace for charges. It is true that this helps to negate cavalry charges a lot, but what some players will do is increase the file of their cavalry corps and punch through a mid point using sheer mass.

[IrishHitman]

It only hits the Greeks. I just check, using my standard army I still got 5007 mnai left (not ~3500 which I said earlier). But with more money or even without an limit the Romans would be utterly destroyed by Greek elites. (Imagine a 6 Hellenic Catphracts, 2 Cata. Eles, 6 Agryaspides, 2 Toxotai Syriakoi, 4 Peltastai Makedonikoi

Imposition of limits on both sides is needed, but the current situation is too far in favour of the Romans.

[satalexton]

I actually favour the current advantages the romans have against the greeks, it makes every greek victory all the more heroic. ALL HAIL MAKEDONIA!!!

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Give the players more money, and the Romans will just be able to counter the Greeks with a Cohortes Reformata spam or through sheer numbers thanks to the generally lower cost of Roman units. Give players less money, and well the Romans will still be able to field better with less.

It's something that the Hellenic player will have to live with: the Romans have a much better capacity at pumping disciplined and cost effective troops.


I haven't played many Roman players as Romans (rather played against some Greeks practicing as Romans), but so far -- Munky is pretty much the only one I have seen that lines up his Triarii in the rear, reversed to brace for charges. It is true that this helps to negate cavalry charges a lot, but what some players will do is increase the file of their cavalry corps and punch through a mid point using sheer mass.

If the player focus his entire cavalry on a single point, he can easily be ganged up by the other Triarii who will join the fray. Every strategy has its counters.

[Phalanx300]

I agree, the Greeks seem to be the only ones limited by 40k. Romani armies, and other armies I've looked all have alot of money left(when not spamming elite units). Then again, Greek units cost about 3000k. I wouldn't say to make it even higher.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

I was astonished when I discovered that Argyraspidai cost about 1000 mnai just for upkeep. This is one aspect that cannot be overlooked: ratio\cost effectiveness. For the price of a single Argyraspidai a Romani player can employ more or less 2 Cohortes, swarming the elites with superior numbers.

In practical aspects this means that any Greek elite using high amounts of money will be countered either by more Romani line infantry or even more Romani elites, which seem to be cheaper IIRC. A 80.000 mnai tournament would only allow far more Extraordinarii than now.

This is why I believe there should be stricter rules on cavalry and elite spamming, as well as for the inclusion of levy quality units. Makes for more plausible and balanced armies.

[Lucio Domicio Aureliano]

It's something that the Hellenic player will have to live with: the Romans have a much better capacity at pumping disciplined and cost effective troops.




This pretty much says it all. It´s true that due to the cost of the greeks units 40k is a real pain in the :furious3: and it´s not much of a problem for the Romans. But, if you look at the big picture, this´s countered big deal due to the fact that many limitation of the phalanks can´t be represented in EB as well as many advantages of the legions.
That said, as far as i´ve seen the battle are very nice and the tournament is being a success.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Given that the Greek Elites are just the best in the entire game, I agree that they should be expensive yes.

[Tolg]

I was astonished when I discovered that Argyraspidai cost about 1000 mnai just for upkeep. This is one aspect that cannot be overlooked: ratio\cost effectiveness. For the price of a single Argyraspidai a Romani player can employ more or less 2 Cohortes, swarming the elites with superior numbers.

In practical aspects this means that any Greek elite using high amounts of money will be countered either by more Romani line infantry or even more Romani elites, which seem to be cheaper IIRC. A 80.000 mnai tournament would only allow far more Extraordinarii than now.

This is why I believe there should be stricter rules on cavalry and elite spamming, as well as for the inclusion of levy quality units. Makes for more plausible and balanced armies.


You're ignoring the 20 units per army limit.

[IrishHitman]

I was astonished when I discovered that Argyraspidai cost about 1000 mnai just for upkeep. This is one aspect that cannot be overlooked: ratio\cost effectiveness. For the price of a single Argyraspidai a Romani player can employ more or less 2 Cohortes, swarming the elites with superior numbers.

In practical aspects this means that any Greek elite using high amounts of money will be countered either by more Romani line infantry or even more Romani elites, which seem to be cheaper IIRC. A 80.000 mnai tournament would only allow far more Extraordinarii than now.

This is why I believe there should be stricter rules on cavalry and elite spamming, as well as for the inclusion of levy quality units. Makes for more plausible and balanced armies.

Well said, although I don't entirely agree.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

You're ignoring the 20 units per army limit

Well yes but that's hard to reach even if you have 60K and just focus on elite spamming.

[Tolg]

Well yes but that's hard to reach even if you have 60K and just focus on elite spamming.

For the Romans? Not at all.

[IrishHitman]

Well yes but that's hard to reach even if you have 60K and just focus on elite spamming.

I checked out what you can get with 50k.
It seems to balance it far more, and with proper unit restrictions, would be more realistic.

[Tolg]

I experiment with the money a lot before we decided on the current 40.000. More will just give the Greeks a huge advantage or force the Romans to use even more unhistorical armies (but even with 6 Equites Extraord. and 14 Pedites Extraord. the 50000 aren't completely used up. BTW, this army composition wouldn't be allowed as it violates the 1/2 native/allies ratio rule). I think the only thing we should perhaps introduce for the second round is a 4 units cav limit.

As it was pointed out earlier, the situations appears not to be "too much in favour of the Romans" as the current score of 2:2 tells us that both sides are doing equally well.

[Phalanx300]

Irish for the Romans if you take 40k you have trouble using it all up, let alone 50k :skull:. Anyways, I always try to go for somewhat Historical armies so I wont use alot of elites so I usually come just below 40k anyways. Except for succesor armies, they are expensive.:whip:

[Gabeed]

I think the only thing we should perhaps introduce for the second round is a 4 units cav limit.


I assume the 40-man general's bodyguard I love would count as a cav? ~:(
I thought my army from the first round was pretty balanced, but it did have 4 Ptolemaic Agema and a general's bodyguard.

[IrishHitman]

I experiment with the money a lot before we decided on the current 40.000. More will just give the Greeks a huge advantage or force the Romans to use even more unhistorical armies (but even with 6 Equites Extraord. and 14 Pedites Extraord. the 50000 aren't completely used up. BTW, this army composition wouldn't be allowed as it violates the 1/2 native/allies ratio rule). I think the only thing we should perhaps introduce for the second round is a 4 units cav limit.

As it was pointed out earlier, the situations appears not to be "too much in favour of the Romans" as the current score of 2:2 tells us that both sides are doing equally well.

Use of four Equites Extraordinarii is a farce in the face of history., never mind six.
The Greeks can even form full and effective 20 unit armies with standard phalanxes, while the Romans have cash to spare to give their units a chevron!

That is a serious problem.

[Phalanx300]

I think that a max on "elite" cavalry would be better. Like Max 3 elite cavalry, then light cavalry would also be used.

I think I'm about the only one not taking huge loads of elite units all the time.:juggle2:

[tsidneku]

I think I'm about the only one not taking huge loads of elite units all the time.:juggle2:

Sadly so. :inquisitive: I was watching your replay and thinking "WHAT ARE THOSE EKDROMOI DOING THERE?! -- and the Hippakontistai!!!"

[Phalanx300]

When playing as the KH I like classical styled Hoplite armies.

It might be foolish not to spam elite units but I'm not playing EB to play with elite super armies. Might as well get back to vanilla if it were that way.:clown:

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Now if only everyone followed that rule :smash:.

[Gabeed]

I think I'm about the only one not taking huge loads of elite units all the time.:juggle2:

Hey now. I'm the only one here who has the balls to use pantodopoi. And these are cowskin-shield pantodopoi, the worst of all pantodopoi. :laugh4:

[Silence Hunter]

Your Saba army was pure beauty! :laugh4:

[Gabeed]

Haha, that's right, let's NOT forget the legion of East Coast Levies!

[Βελισάριος]

The issue of levies is being discussed among the jury members.
In the meantime, I need some volunteers for a couple of trial battles.

Anyone interested?

[Silence Hunter]

I would definitely join in but I'm going to bed in a few minutes.

Btw I tested the army compositions with 40k, 50k and 45k limits for most of the factions. If we limit the number of heavy cavalry and elite infantry, 45k makes for very reasonable and balanced armies. 40k is abit low for Hellenes, while 50k is too much for pretty much any faction.

[antisocialmunky]

I think it should be 3 rather than 4. Or atleast you can't take all Companions if you have 4, you have to use 1/2 medium guys. 4600 is 2-3 decent units, I would like to see it used for something not Companions.


I haven't played many Roman players as Romans (rather played against some Greeks practicing as Romans), but so far -- Munky is pretty much the only one I have seen that lines up his Triarii in the rear, reversed to brace for charges. It is true that this helps to negate cavalry charges a lot, but what some players will do is increase the file of their cavalry corps and punch through a mid point using sheer mass.

http://files.filefront.com/Wowrpy/;13428178;/fileinfo.html

Yeah but I keep most of my men in a dense formation. It isn't feasable to do it if you're flanking. This is an interesting replay in that it shows what Camillian Triarii can do. It also shows that this tactic is only a delaying tactic.

Also, it shows that default thickness for phalangites suck against high density Pedites and how you should shorten your line instead of trying to flank with phalangites. You can also see how the Pedites are the only gusy that actually manage to break through. The phalangites actually manage to hold off the principles.



And do you realize that the Romans have a very good selection of AP cavalry early on? Equites Campanici are faster than the Hetairoi and can mow them down well in a fight because they are done right for it. I would not waste money with expensive chargers if they will spend most of their time fighting other cavalry.


Yeah, they are nice. Too bad I can't have them. Honestly those guys are a little too good against heavy cavalry for costing 1000-2000 cheaper than them. It would make it more unfair.

[Βελισάριος]

ASM, get your indolent lardy arse on Hamachi now!

In the meantime, I forgot to mention... the last battle has been declared valid. There was no breach of the rules as we have them now. There may be a review later on, but for now, the Romans and the Hellenes are tied at 2.

Replay posted on the first message (along with a guide to playing the replay files as per request).

[antisocialmunky]

I'm on, what do you want?

[Gabeed]

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=05b0f9934bc10ca3391d7d881749d3a7e04e75f6e8ebb871

An epic, non-tournament, Huge battle between Phalanx300, as the Romans, and myself as the Ptolemaioi. One of the best battles I've played, and had my Galatians on my left flank not held so heroically, I would not have been able to get my victorious right flank over in time. Much respect is due to Phalanx300, who managed to thwart my pantodopoi+cavalry flank with ease and who nearly won the day.

[IrishHitman]

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=05b0f9934bc10ca3391d7d881749d3a7e04e75f6e8ebb871

An epic, non-tournament, Huge battle between Phalanx300, as the Romans, and myself as the Ptolemaioi. One of the best battles I've played, and had my Galatians on my left flank not held so heroically, I would not have been able to get my victorious right flank over in time. Much respect is due to Phalanx300, who managed to thwart my pantodopoi+cavalry flank with ease and who nearly won the day.

If only I hadn't disconnected during that desert game..
What an epic battle that would have been..

[antisocialmunky]

Bump.

Can those who haven't fought the first round yet do so or is the tournement dead?

[Tolg]

No way that I'm going to let it die.


1. Antisocialmunky vs. IrishHitman Victory for Rome
2. Alexanderthegreater vs. Potocello What's wrong Potocello? (He is/was one of the most active players in the practice matches, so I'm a bit surprised...)
3. Blxz vs. Gabeed Victory for the Ptolemaioi
4. Rootje vs. BurningEGO Out of the tournament
5. We shall fwee...Wodewick vs. Silence Hunter ???
6. TWFanatic vs. Maion Maroneios I suggested that Burebista replaces TWF and Maion is fine with it. What about you Burebista?
7. Tolg vs. Phalanx300 Victory for Rome
8. Fluvius Camillus vs. Tsidneku Victory for Pontos

[Maion Maroneios]

Burebista replaces TWF and Maion is fine with it. What about you Burebista
That's cool with me, but do you, Βελισάριος, play as the Romans as well?

Maion

[HunGeneral]

If need be I could jump in for the either siede for one battle although I could only play on friday night or on Satruday (and I don't use Hamachi yet).

Would that be accepteable aswel?

[Βελισάριος]

Over my dead body it's dead.
But some people are getting a reprimand.

Now, Silence and Wodewick were supposed to fight this Friday/Saturday but missed each other by about... 3 hours or so.
Potocello... that's a surprise for me as well.

If by Friday we get no reply from the idlers, HunGeneral and myself can step in.
I'll replace TWFanatic and Hun can replace Potocello... or the other way around. Hun, do you prefer Rome or a Hellenic faction?

[Silence Hunter]

Me and Wodewick met on Saturday, but we had a problem of different mods (which had simpler than we thought solution, but we didn't know that) so we decided to play on Sunday. However because of lost Wodewicks internet connection we were unable to play. I'm busy during weekdays, so we can play on Friday at the earliest.

[HunGeneral]

If by Friday we get no reply from the idlers, HunGeneral and myself can step in.
I'll replace TWFanatic and Hun can replace Potocello... or the other way around. Hun, do you prefer Rome or a Hellenic faction?

It would depend on which Hellenic faction.... but i wil consider it by tonight. Could we discuss the details on MSN?

[Maion Maroneios]

OK, here is the link to the Tournament battle fought between me and Βελισάριος, who took TWFanatic's place.
http://files.filefront.com/MaionvsBelisarios+11+3rpy/;13447360;/fileinfo.html

Maion

[Βελισάριος]

You may have won the battle, but the war's not over yet!


It would depend on which Hellenic faction.... but i wil consider it by tonight. Could we discuss the details on MSN?

I'll be around. If not, PM me.
You can pick any Hellenic faction you want except Baktria.

Oh, and, remember to apply the new rules.

[Maion Maroneios]

You may have won the battle, but the war's not over yet!
Well, I didn't brag about anything, did I?




ROMAIOI... Sorry, instinctive impulse :clown: Seriously though, you play the Romaioi much better than I do. I was actually thinking I might lose at the end.

Maion

[satalexton]

I just saw your battle maion, guess what i'm about to say/scream/yell?

[Nachtmeister]

Maion and Βελισάριος, I just watched all the replays posted so far, hope I am not getting them mixed up here but I believe it was your battle with 2xHetairoi, 2xH. Thessalikoi on the hellenic side and the ONLY one with an equal ratio of principes and hastati fielded on the roman side (matter of fact, the only one with any hastati at all...).
I believe that counting both army setups in, this battle had the most realistic *feel* of all and was beautiful to watch, even the way units were moved - no "exit phalanx mode, run, re-enter phalanx mode" or other - say, cosmetically dubious - moves. It seemed quite balanced as no side was really spamming uber units. But especially the roman side was remarkably *fair-composed*.
Due to the hastati and the equal mix of equites romani and equites extraordinarii and also not *more* triarii than principes OR hastati.
Again, a beautiful army composition and a great battle.

I watched the battle of Phalanx300 vs Tolg with kinda mixed feelings - I really liked the army setup of Phalanx300 but - please do not take personal offence - Tolg, you were by comparison sort of spamming equites extraordinarii there iirc - or was it just two units? - (and had an infantry full of principes with no hastati at all but then most roman armies in the tournament so far lacked hastati alltogether)... The cavalry part was thus totally un-balanced / mission impossible for Phalanx300, although of course you did approach the battle itself in a fair way by evening the odds as far as possible given the very different army strengths in engaging the infantry uphill. Although of course this was all likely not deliberate - afaik you don't know the opponent's army composition until the battle starts, right? Anyway, the battle started out with a "i know the romans are going to win this one" feeling but then became very interesting to watch until the KH cavalry got ripped apart, at which point it was more a matter of "how many charges does it take a swarm of extraordinarii to rout the greek rear".

It was sort of a bit full of heavy-units with ptolemaioi vs rome on both sides, but overall balanced, I sort of missed more unit variety. I guess this is because one has to spend as much money as is made available so as not to risk being under-equipped...

The battle between Flavius Camillus and Tsidneku was sort of a bit pre-decided - the pontic army simply seemed to have the (in conjunction with each other) more capable units. Here I also kinda missed some more variety though - pontic swordsmen, chalkaspides etc.; the pontic army seemed more set for performance than colourful composition (especially with the many-many sarmatians - or did the actual king of pontos field them in such numbers?), but both sides put up a very good fight to watch.

On the pedites extraordinarii-guts-palanx move - while I must say that both armies were a bit over-heavy, entirely composed of tank-cavalry, tank-infantry and assault infantry plus some elite tanks, the "exploit" move did not seem alltogether un-counter-able but the roman formation seemed very game-performance- and not at all historical-battle-deployment- oriented. Still, from the posts in the Jury-needed-thread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2170457#post2170457 I would have expected waaay more pedites extraordinarii on the roman side - or did I miss something going on in the woods?

I also checked out custom battles to generate a replay folder before watching any of the tournament replays.
Why oh why by mighty Ares can the Koinon Hellenon, of all factions, NOT field greek peltastai in V. 1.2?! This appears to be screaming to be rectified. Regardless of whether they actually get fielded or are left shining in the roster due to thracians being preferred - they at least need to be available imho.

That's my two cents (ok, rather five bucks by the amount of text) on the battles so far, I hope no one feels bugged or assaulted by them. As soon as my university exams are through, I'll want to join in with a battle too (prefer KH, but will play Rome if necessary) if it is still possible by then (some time around end of march - mid april probably).

[IrishHitman]

did not seem alltogether un-counter-able
That's amusing conjecture. Care to explain?
I invite you to play against Antisocial when he's in the mood for such things.

[Βελισάριος]

Nachtmeister, thank you very much for your input. It's nice to see some constructive feedback every now and then.
Of course we'd love to have you in the next tournament. 'soon as this one's done.

Fresh new rules for that one, I guarantee you that.



I also checked out custom battles to generate a replay folder before watching any of the tournament replays.
Why oh why by mighty Ares can the Koinon Hellenon, of all factions, NOT field greek peltastai in V. 1.2?! This appears to be screaming to be rectified. Regardless of whether they actually get fielded or are left shining in the roster due to thracians being preferred - they at least need to be available imho.


I actually have an EDU edited specifically for that.
You'll notice that Toxotai are also missing, as well as Hippeis Thessalikoi.
I even added the mercenary unit of Hoplitai, just because I get tired of all those eyes staring at me whenever I check the unit formation.

I'll be making a few more edits to the file this weekend and hopefully make up a wider, more realistic and historically accurate unit roster for all the competing factions and make it available (and mandatory) for round two... which, by the way, begins next week.

[Nachtmeister]

That's amusing conjecture. Care to explain?
I invite you to play against Antisocial when he's in the mood for such things.

:laugh4: Probably this *conjecture* (if by this you mean the word un-counter-able) is a result of German language thought-patterns. In German you can combine any and all words to form new ones and it is frequently done if it serves to convey something very explicitly (in the sense of "literal", not "parental advisory").
And I am nowhere saying that I would have done better against Antisocial in case you thought I were putting down your performance... Just stating that countering the attack would have been possible, if difficult and somewhat annoying. Examples: Cav charge through own lines (the battle was unrealistic by that time anyway) to push the pedites extraordinarii back, then immediate retreat of course; otherwise - move one unit of hysteroi pezhetairoi from the flank to the center to support the pezhetairoi (the h. p. were kinda under-utilized for awhile after the main infantry battle was taking place on the left, not the right flank, but maybe this deployment issue is related to the trees being in the way or even realistic command-chain role-play with the general being busy keeping the enemy away from the phalanx's rear).

[antisocialmunky]

If he had plunged his cavalry into the breach, it would have chased him into it and stuck him into it followed by the ball of Agrianians and my men. But I agree those Hysteroi didn't really do anything by poke my left side.

[IrishHitman]

1. Cav charge through own lines (the battle was unrealistic by that time anyway)

2. to push the pedites extraordinarii back

3. then immediate retreat of course

4. move one unit of hysteroi pezhetairoi from the flank to the center to support the pezhetairoi (the h. p. were kinda under-utilized for awhile after the main infantry battle was taking place on the left, not the right flank, but maybe this deployment issue is related to the trees being in the way or even realistic command-chain role-play with the general being busy keeping the enemy away from the phalanx's rear).

1. Illegal.

2. You are aware that medium phalanx units aren't capable of that once broken, right?

3. Which would have resulted in a slaughter as the Pedites were among them at the time.

4. I attempted that, but was kind of busy with the ridiculous amounts of Equites Extraordinarii hanging around by rear areas.

[antisocialmunky]

Does anyone have any ideas how to use the Marian army. Its alot of guys but no specialization = can't do anything about horses = dead.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Keep them in defense mode. They will trucidate anything that attacks them, especially if they are elite like the Evocata.

Otherwise you could try using allied spearmen the Romani get on their battle roster. Actually that would be a good matter for discussion.

[antisocialmunky]

Thsoe are imperial auxilleria. And no, you have good heavy infantry and alot of them but they have no support so they hang in the wind and die.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Try using Antesignani.

Or just overwhelm them with numbers. Marian units are relatively cheap and numerous.

Besides the Marian Cavalry is all around good. Equites Thracum in particular have AP attack.

[Βελισάριος]

Apparently, Marians suck. (http://www.mediafire.com/file/m0idmginmnm/Nikator.sav) I don't think so. You just need to use them properly.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, you know. Cavalry can be taken care of. It's a matter of waiting for the opportune moment.

[antisocialmunky]

You can't swarm if you can't afford to ignore their cavalry the threat of them pins you down. Antesignani are nice but they have to be used in conjunction with cavalry that's good and Marian Cavalry has too low of a morale plus they are pretty much the most expensive unit on your roster.

[Nachtmeister]

Still, even with special swordsmen-vs-cavalry tactics available - the Romans should be able to use foreign auxilia as appropriate to the time in which or the enemy against which the battle is fought. For instance, against the greeks they should have all Iberian regionals available (unless I got it mixed up, Rome had already subjugated Iberia by the time it invaded Illyria and Makedonia...?).
There are lots of quality spearmen among those. If it is to be an imperial army with the Greeks rebelling against the empire, they would basically be able to pick any regionals available in single player, although maybe urgency would limit the area from which the auxiliary units would arrive in time to take part in the battle (as in "we need to suppress that rebellion NOW, not in three years when the British levies have made their way across Europe").

*EDIT* Now wait a moment, are we discussing creating another invincible Roman performance juggernaught...? I mean, where's the fun if *every* one of your unit types has better stats than the equivalent type in the opposing army? Rome's main strength is supposed to be their anti-infantry-infantry, not their phalangites and scythed chariots, right? */EDIT*

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Greek units are pretty much self contained whereas historically Rome relied greatly on foreign auxiliaries for such tasks as being the cavalry arm. Saying that the Roman army relied only on good anti-infantry infantry is a myth and irregular auxilia made up a very fat percentage of the Late Republic's armies.

[Nachtmeister]

Greek units are pretty much self contained whereas historically Rome relied greatly on foreign auxiliaries for such tasks as being the cavalry arm. Saying that the Roman army relied only on good anti-infantry infantry is a myth and irregular auxilia made up a very fat percentage of the Late Republic's armies.

... And I am not saying they shouldn't have auxilia (read my previous post, especially the pre-edit part); my point is antisocialmunky's remark about the STATS. There is no point in playing if you have "the superior units" and your opponent has "the inferior units" now, is there?

[Maion Maroneios]

I just saw your battle maion, guess what i'm about to say/scream/yell?
:evilgrin:

Maion

[Connacht]

Looked at the battle of Maion and Belisarios (I have a slightly altered EDU but I think that the result shouldn't be different).

Good ambush of Belisarios, Maion brought on the assault with too hurry and was backstabbed. In my personal opinion his mistakes were:

1) too advanced cavalry while moving, thus the slingers easily killed some of them, reducing his men
2) his attempt to surround the enemy was too rushed, he left no men defending the rear of his phalangites, who remained unprotected (I would have soon charged the deutheroi in order to break the phalanx and then turn my wing to the elites, while moving away the hippeis and engage the remaining enemy cavalry, for instance)
3) not enough cavalry, I would have put in one more unit, maybe two (1 heavy + 1 light who should catch enemy skirmishers and slingers)
4) he didn't notice that the enemy units were too few, considering also that they remained still and standed compact (just like they were saying "come on, surround us") he should have suspected that he left other units hidden somewhere, ready to engage at the right moment

[Maion Maroneios]

Looked at the battle of Maion and Belisarios (I have a slightly altered EDU but I think that the result shouldn't be different).

Good ambush of Belisarios, Maion brought on the assault with too hurry and was backstabbed. In my personal opinion his mistakes were:
Too hurry? You mean too soon, maybe. Well, no, because my units where failing big-time. Romaioi infantry has too high morale, plus I was outnumbered and would have lost too many men.[/QUOTE]


1) too advanced cavalry while moving, thus the slingers easily killed some of them, reducing his men
Slingers? I had Kretikoi, no slingers... Have you confused the Makedones vs Hellenes (for fun battle) with the Makedones vs Romani (official Tournament match) battle?


2) his attempt to surround the enemy was too rushed, he left no men defending the rear of his phalangites, who remained unprotected (I would have soon charged the deutheroi in order to break the phalanx and then turn my wing to the elites, while moving away the hippeis and engage the remaining enemy cavalry, for instance)
What do you mean? First, I think you're talking about me, then about Belisarios... You got me too confused, man. What you would have done in theory (which Belisarios could also have done), has nothing to do with what you would have done if you where out there against me. Plus, remember there is no "Pause" option during Multiplayer battles, unless decided so by both players. In this case, there was absolutely NO Pausing. Which basically means you cannot manage your whole army at once.

As for the Deuteroi, in the official Tournament battle I had only Pezhetairoi. The other one was just for fun, you shouldn't analyze the mistakes because there were too many of them. We fought for fun then.


3) not enough cavalry, I would have put in one more unit, maybe two (1 heavy + 1 light who should catch enemy skirmishers and slingers)
Who? Me or Belisarios? If you are referring to me, the answer is plain and simple: Not enough money. If you are referring to Belisarios, the answer is again simple: The rules prohibit the usage of more than 4 cavalry units (excluding the General). So basically he couldn't use more cavalry units.

As for chasing enemy missile troops and such, that's pointless. Most of the time, you are almost 100% focused in keeping your center and/or flanks secure or you are just too preoccupied with the main battle line. No "Pause" option, remember?


4) he didn't notice that the enemy units were too few, considering also that they remained still and standed compact (just like they were saying "come on, surround us") he should have suspected that he left other units hidden somewhere, ready to engage at the right moment
The right moment? And when might that be? I mean, the rules clearly state that in the first round of the Tournament, the Romani have to attack the Hellenes.

Maion

[antisocialmunky]

I usually use a unit of cavalry to scout out the trees since Bure always has archers in the trees.

I have also come up with suggestions for the tournement for the Romani:

+Reforms:
-Camillian against Epeiros
-Polybian OR Marian against Seleucids(We can play out both a Raphia era battle or Pompey era battle).

+Allied/Mercenaries for Polybian and Camillian where E = Elite and H = Heavy Cav, Camillians can only use Italian Allies:

The Italian Allies:
-Lucianians
-Ligurian Infantry/Cavalry
-Bruttian Infantry
-Samnite Spearmen
-We could include Campanians as well but they'd probably have to be considered Heavy Cavalry since they are cheaper than they ought to be and have AP swords that will really screw up Companians. ONLY IN CAMILLIAN since they sided with Hannibal in Punic War II.

Greek Allies:
-Classical Hoplites
-Syrakusian Hoplites
-Massilian Hoplites
-Celto-Hellenic Hoplites
-Mercenary Thuerophoroi
-Mercenary Iphikratides
-Mercenary Peltastai
-Toxotai
-Illyrians
-Cretans(E)

Other Allies:
-Numidian Slingers/Skirmishers/Archers/Cav
-Balaeric Slingers(E)
-Sardinian Infantry
-Germany Mercenary Light Cav
-Gallic Mercenary Light Cav

Allied/Mercenaries for Mercenary and Camillian where E = Elite:

European:
-Celtic Levy Spearmen
-Celtic Spearmen
-German Spearmen
-Iberian Caetrati
-Iberian Scutari
-Lusotanian Medium Spearmen(E)
-Dunaminica(E)
-Neitos(E)
-Balaeric Slingers(E)
-Cretan Archers(E)
-Celtic Archers
-Gallic Noble Cavalry(H)

Asian:
-Syrian Archers

Africa: Against Egypt
-Numidian Slingers/Skirmishers/Archers/Cav

+Roman Army Composition Rules:

Polybian and Camillian:
Must have 1 Triari, 2 Hastati, 2 Principles. Cavalry is 1 Heavy Cavalry to atleast 1 Medium or Light Cavalry up to 4 not including a general. The rest of the army must be composed of 2 non-elite units to 1 elite unit either allied or factional.

Marian:
Must have atleast 6 Marian cohorts with up to 1 first cohort. Cavalry is 1 Heavy Cavalry to atleast 1 Medium or Light Cavalry up to 4 not including a general. The rest of the army must be composed of 3 none elite to 1 elite unit of either allied or factional.

I personally like playing with these rules since it makes the game semi-historical but still flexible enough to be a little gamey.

[Nachtmeister]

I hope this is not considered too off-topic. But using Cav as a counter to archers - does the shield on cav units such as h. lonchophoroi count like an infantry shield (i.e. moving sideways relative to the enemy position, you want to present your LEFT side due to shield bonus) or does it work differently with cavalry? Because in real life, the horse would receive almost no protection even if the rider tried to block all missiles due to the restricted "shield range" resulting from the rider having no stirrups, thus being unable to perform arrow-blocking acrobatics...
So my question is, are (for example) h. lonchophoroi more effective against archers/slingers than (also for example) h. xystophoroi and if so does it matter which way they are facing when the missiles hit?

[Maion Maroneios]

Hmmm, you got me a bit confused here...

Maion

[Βελισάριος]

I don't suppose there's any point in analysing the Lonchophoroi v. Xystophoroi from a real-life point of view.
Although, even then, the shield would have provided some extra defence. To the rider, at least. The horse would've had to fend for itself (which is why Kataphraktoi are such bloody tanks).
Although, considering the general angle of missile fire (45+ degrees, usually) the shield -properly held and used- would also provide the horse with protection from missiles to a certain extent.

But the real issue here is the Medium cavalry wing that will accompany the Heavy/Companion cavalry with the new rules, and particularly their survival.

Prodromoi are good. Very good. But they also suck, especially if facing other cavalry. They die like they're kamikaze Thracian horsemen (look at my last battle with ASM- they did a hell of a job, but I was left with about 18 of them in total from the 100 I set out with).

Lochophoroi have more defence (and cost more subsequently), but the shield helps in a fight against cavalry or even infantry. Admittedly, they have a slightly less powerful charge, but still good enough to scare an already frightened unit into routing.

Now Hetairoi are just friggin tanks, they defiantly refuse to die, but they lack shields so they're also vulnerable- especially to those bloomin' cohors' javelins. So Lonchophoroi can help defend the Hetairoi as well.

Now, I'm glad we brought this up, because I'm curious to hear your thoughts on anti-cavalry tactics. What do you find best?
Personally, I'm a fan of slingers.

P.S.: Maion, I think Connacht was talking about our KH vs Makedonia battle, because I had no slingers as Rome.

[antisocialmunky]

Missiles+light infantry+decent cavalry is usually good. Rome can use Lucianians + cavalry to counter enemy cavalry but they have no missiles unless we let them used allied missiles. And at that point it would be used mainly to counter enemy missiles since greek cavalry has heavy armor.

Any comments on my allies list?

[Nachtmeister]

I must be missing something here - the Romans have accensi and leves as missile units, which at least in my campaigns were more than sufficient to fulfill a not-army-mainstay-missile arm's job.
About the cav discussion - I should have not at all mentioned real life - the question was only whether shielded cavalry gets a shield bonus vs missiles under the same condition as infantry does (facing missiles with front or left side) or if they get the shield bonus no matter where they're facing when the missiles "land".
The real-life related answer with the 45°-angle makes sense, thank you for this insight Βελισάριος.

Countering cav depends on where they are - generally slingers are a good idea but only if you have enough other units to spare to support them.
Something that definitely did NOT work well in a recent battle against the AI was using ekdromoi hoplitai to kill Makedonian somatophylakes strategou/hetairoi... They won, at a cost. Two units of ekdromoi against one unit of hetairoi. The ekdromoi were a bit winded due to chasing skirmishers. They did not get cut down by the charge but in the quite long melee following it.
What always works is hoplitai in def mode, with ANY light cav to "catch and hold" the enemy unit (obviously only when it is already close to the hoplites).
So I'd opt for
-slingers to force them to attack or be shot down
-heavy spear unit to make short work of them if they attack
-light cav to either counter archers countering the slingers or to assist in killing the enemy cav/bogging them down
Apparently, heavy cavalry is quite cost-effective... Ties down three units just by being present on the field...

[antisocialmunky]

Well, we'd don't need a different list in Camillian. Probably just the Italian Allies, no Greek or Others.

@ Cav question, so does anyone know if cavalry gets the shield bonus against missiles while gallopping? Infantry only gets it when standing still.

[gamegeek2]

I suggest a minimum of 4 allied/mercenary units and a maximum of 8 for the Hellenic factions. If you look at Pontos, for example, they rely heavily on Hellenic and Anatolian regionals, while the Makedonians have plenty of to build around.

The Romans, meanwhile, relied extensively on allies and auxiliaries to fill out the non-heavy infantry roles in their army. A Marian army should be roughly half composed of auxiliaries (spearmen, cavalry, skirmishers) and half of heavy legionary infantry. Triarii do not count as auxiliaries.

Meanwhile, a Polybian army should have at least 6 allied/mercenary units.

[Nachtmeister]

Just saw the units list --- NEITOS WTF...
Man why not just use mercenary elephants and phalangites and the good old M1A2...
And IMHO, completely cancel out ANY greek units (unless you want to RP civil war with opportunistic romans in this tournament - which would be historically accurate but would also somewhat defeat the purpose of this whole tournament, still worse with elites... I mean, next thing we have Greeks fielding hastati (while the Romans are magically omitting them most of the time). YES, the KH can recruit hastati, rorarii and leves in the three northern Italian provinces).
Iberian units would make sense as they had a very profound influence on the Roman legions anyway.
Against Epeiros - limit to Italic allies. Campanians are ok - even if the stats make it hard, it is the same with triarii and pedites extraordinarii, right? And the Hellenes also have hetairoi aspidophoroi to cover the role of the Campanians.
Numidians?? OK, maybe against the Ptolemaioi. When did Rome ever take these particular "allies" across the sea with them?

[Nachtmeister]

The Romans, meanwhile, relied extensively on allies and auxiliaries to fill out the non-heavy infantry roles in their army. A Marian army should be roughly half composed of auxiliaries (spearmen, cavalry, skirmishers) and half of heavy legionary infantry. Triarii do not count as auxiliaries.

If you look at it this way, the roman army should look like this: Equal numbers of hastati and principes OR even more hastati than principes, roughly HALF as many triarii and then an equal mix of italic allies with light units well represented among them and pedites extraordinarii equivalent to triarii in their number... Then maybe one unit of equites consulares (or singulares, depending on era) and two units of auxiliary cavalry, Iberian or Campanian or equites extraordinarii.

Example:

ROMAN NATIVE
1x equites consulares
2x hastati
2x principes
2x triarii
2x rorarii
1x accensi

ALLIES
1x equites extraordinarii
1x equites campanici
2x achimetai leukanoi
2x pezoi brettioi
2x hastati samnitici
2x pedites extraordinarii

This would be a quite (cost-)effective yet more authentic army than something like
6x neitos,
6x triarii,
6x equites extraordinarii
...

[Gabeed]

I suggest a minimum of 4 allied/mercenary units and a maximum of 8 for the Hellenic factions.

Sorry, I don't have enough Macedonians here in Egypt to limit myself to merely 8 non-Macedonian troops. :egypt:

Seriously, though, we can't exactly approach the problem of "allied/mercenary units" with Hellenic factions in the same way as the Romans. What is factional and what is allied starts to mix together, especially with Pontos, the Ptolemaioi, and the Seleukids. I always cite my Galatians klerouch swordsmen as an example of this. I think a minimum of levy troops might need to be in order, but trying to determine what an "ally" is with a cosmopolitan empire would be a nightmare.

[antisocialmunky]

Just saw the units list --- NEITOS WTF...
Man why not just use mercenary elephants and phalangites and the good old M1A2...
And IMHO, completely cancel out ANY greek units (unless you want to RP civil war with opportunistic romans in this tournament - which would be historically accurate but would also somewhat defeat the purpose of this whole tournament, still worse with elites... I mean, next thing we have Greeks fielding hastati (while the Romans are magically omitting them most of the time). YES, the KH can recruit hastati, rorarii and leves in the three northern Italian provinces).
Iberian units would make sense as they had a very profound influence on the Roman legions anyway.
Against Epeiros - limit to Italic allies. Campanians are ok - even if the stats make it hard, it is the same with triarii and pedites extraordinarii, right? And the Hellenes also have hetairoi aspidophoroi to cover the role of the Campanians.
Numidians?? OK, maybe against the Ptolemaioi. When did Rome ever take these particular "allies" across the sea with them?

I believe Numidian Archers description refers to them being used as mercenaries by Caesar but I guess we could remove them since they are a ways out. Neitos represent the Gallic allied heavy infantry though you're right they shouldn't be used outside of Gaul vs other Gauls so they are out. Gallic Heavy cavalry should be out by that logic too.

[tsidneku]

Romans should be using Polybians versus the Seleukid kingdom. While the Seleukid empire didn't fall apart until the first century BC (when Pompeii subjugated it after defeating Mithridates of Pontus), the most critical battles between the Seleukids and Rome were probably during the Romani-Syrio wars around the 200s. Thermopylae and Magnesia are the two biggest battles that come off the top of my head here -- both of which are Roman victories where they impose immense indemnities on Antiochus III and pretty much pushes him out of Anatolia.

I don't know what you're making reference to Raphia for -- it was a battle between Ptolemy II and Antiochus III.

[antisocialmunky]

I got the name mixed up. Not so good with Seleucid history.

[Maion Maroneios]

P.S.: Maion, I think Connacht was talking about our KH vs Makedonia battle, because I had no slingers as Rome.
If so, why bother analyzing it? It was for fun. Plus, he refers to some points that deffinately have to do with our latest battle. Or at least it sounds like that.

Maion

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

excuse my ignorance
but, how can I join this ... (as roman)
it is great!

[Βελισάριος]

Buongiorno!

You wait until April when the next tournament starts again and then -now pay attention 'cause this is the tricky part- you tell us.
In the meantime, feel free to join the hamachi network (full instructions are on the other thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=112552) plus some signatures if you like- only one for Rome so far, sorry about that) and you can have some bouts for fun with the rest of us.

In bocca al lupo!

And Maion, relax man... it's a "battle analysis" thread. If you don't agree with what he's saying, refute it.

[antisocialmunky]

Back to an old topic, what's the official stance of pulling phalanxes out of phalanx mode and running them into an attack? I don't particularly care for phalangites running into my face and lower those pikes at the last second. Especially if I'm marching to the enemy and haven't formed up properly.

[Nachtmeister]

Back to an old topic, what's the official stance of pulling phalanxes out of phalanx mode and running them into an attack? I don't particularly care for phalangites running into my face and lower those pikes at the last second. Especially if I'm marching to the enemy and haven't formed up properly.

I suppose this will require either a military expert to ascertain whether such a move would have been drill-able OR a scan for historical precedences... I can't think of one ATM. But the fact that a phalanx in phalanx mode can not run kinda is dropping a hint IMHO. Although this has further implications about hellenistic mobility on the field alltogether (this would then not be limited to "charge rules" but rather expanded to "move rules"). This however begs the same question for ANY heavy/rank-and-file infantry... The stuff the RTW engine lets us pull off would have real soldiers sprinting around in their heavy gear like that crapping their pants/togae/tunicae/pteryges from sheer exhaustion and runner's diarrhea. :dizzy2:

[Βελισάριος]

Getting a phalanx unit out of phalanx mode to run faster towards the enemy's position is, in my sincere opinion, plausible. Lowering a sarissa is not all that complicated anyway. As long as they maintain formation while running -which is possible- they should be able to deploy in phalanx mode afterwards quite easily.

Having them charge the enemy lines on the other hand... with the RTW engine, they'll "drop" their sarissas and engage in sword-and-buckler fighting mode. Which is alright, it's every soldier's right to draw his sword every now and then.
And if the enemy have been driven away by a Companion cavalry charge afterwards, then sure, they can pick the sarissas off the ground and march in phalanx mode again.

The problem is... having them run away with their swords from where they "dropped" the pikes and then deploying them once more... how do those pikes magically re-appear?
And as for forming a phalanx while engaged in sword-fighting... again, the sarissas appear like magic and start pushing the enemy soldiers back. How does that happen?

I'm not citing any referrences or using examples of battles, but use your common sense.

[Nachtmeister]

Do make a difference between lowering the sarissae upon contact and GHARGING into sword-melee though...! If the phalanx is standing there or walking or whatever, the enemy attacking while you're not looking doesn't mean they lose their lances; they drop them where they are still fighting, so (as the ingame animation suggests), the hindmost are the first to pick up their pikes and start forming the spear wall from the rear forwards, more soldiers picking up lances as their comrades give them cover from behind.
Actually going by your logic, I could "move-charge" a phalanx (spears remain visible yet soldiers are running) and lower pikes upon impact... The only difference to a normal charge would be that you don't get a charge bonus - oh and the phalanx is set up much faster this way.
However, I believe that it was precisely this move that Antisocial was inquiring about - it is what I'd do if I wanted to use every "bug" in the engine to get fast kills.
Of course, it could also be argued that phalangites not performing pike-pushes automatically seem kinda bug-ish. How are the rules on pike pushes anyway? (move phalanx behind enemy line and watch them die)

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

OR keep phalanxes outside of Guard Mode and click to attack the enemy.

[Nachtmeister]

Nah, wouldn't do that in a tournament - it tends to badly disarray the formation, creating huge gaps (well, big enough for roughly half a cohort to fit through, thus providing us with some examples of epic FAIL Hellenes). :skull:
They TURN towards "the enemy" when not in guard mode. "The enemy" in AI terms (which takes partial control of units not in guard mode, i.e. pursuing if enemy decides to disengage etc.) seems to be the physical mass centre of the opposing army.

II II II II => // II = \\

Ok, I am not good at this but if the above is supposed to represent a battle line, correctly deployed on the left and after I disengage guard mode on the right, you will understand what I mean. Note the irregular "=" that is not justifiable by any logic like "mass centre" or the likes - it STILL happens nevertheless. Maybe this is my computer's way to tell me I am spending too much time playing EB.

[antisocialmunky]

Phalangites do tend to explode without guard mode. However, if you put on in attack and order it take a walk behind the enemy, it somestimes doesn't totally fail.

[antisocialmunky]

We just had a for fun game:

http://files.filefront.com/ASMvsGabeedrpy/;13460479;/fileinfo.html

Marian Romans + Spanish Mercs and Cretans vs Ptolemy. I ran into some issues with my controls so my formation ended up exploding. More spordic control lag happened wihch explains the chaotic behavior when I started counter attacking da Jews. However I managed to rebuild it in time for the phalangites to show up. It was a pretty epic battle and the best one I've had in a while.

Comments:
-Cretans really are powerful and deserve their place as the best missile unit in the game. If you pay attention, my 1st Cohorts general gets killed by a horde of Cretans. I'm not sure why Gabeed let my one unit of them live for so long.
-Fire arrows are the win.
-Phalangite Balls are ridiculous. Spears EVERYWHERE.

Also, I'm just going to throw this out there but I think it would be more balanced if we don't allow chevrons for missiles. 7 Attack Arrows or 4 attack AP Rocks are too powerful. Imagine if one of us brought and upgraded 4 Cretans.

[Phalanx300]

I only used chevrons to represent somewhat more elite units that don't have a unit ingame. Like the Spartan Hippeis and Skiritai(Ekdromoi will have to do without Peltastai :whip:).

For the rest I wont use it, might explain why I have low money alot.:sweatdrop:

[Tolg]

I don't use experience at all.

Also experience changes the missile attack on the unit card only but doesn't actually rise the attack.

Test: 1 Mardian Archers (I) VS 1 Thorakitai (AI)


Thorakitai casualties before first melee contact:

Without upgrades: 10
"Gold" Weapons: 60
3 gold chevrons: 14

[Blxz]

Burebista, I am going to have to pull out of the Roman/greek tournament. Between shitty internt that seems to have cut out on me (writing now from an internet cafe) and getting dropped by the gf for another bloke I seem to realize that I don't care who is better out of romans and greeks. They are all dead now and as I recall the romans beat all the greeks and took their lands and taxed them. Then married those sexy greek women and took up their culture and their language and all became greek in the end.

So yes, roman armies are better than greek armies but those damn scary greek women kick ass and can conquer any man.

Have fun and will see everyone back on the forums when I give a shit enough to have my internet fixed.