The Europa Barbarorum Quotes Project [Archive]

oudysseos

03-06-2009, 10:00

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Greetings Europa Barbarorum fans.

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Here are the files for adding the new quotes to EB1.2

Download and extract the .zip-archive from here (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9409109/EB/EB-Quotes.zip)

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Download and extract the .zip-archive.

Quotes goes in your EB/data/text folder.
Descr_quotes_lookup and descr_transition_screen go in your EB/data folder.

Say "yes" if asked to overwrite old files. It is always a good idea to backup your old files first, just in case. I will not of course take any responsibility if it all goes wrong somehow, although I might feel bad about it.

That's it. I have playtested these files on my own version of EB1 and have encountered no problems. If anyone does, PM me or post on this thread and I will do what I can to help.

The new quotes file contains ca. 240 quotes, at least half of which are new (you will have seen some of them on the quotes project thread). Almost all of the remaining old quotes have been redone to include correct citations and often the original language. A few old quotes do remain to be redone in this way.

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I would like to invite you all to participate in an ongoing project to codify, correctly reference, and add variety to the loading screen quotes for Europa Barbarorum II. This is a chance for anyone and everyone to have something that they did included in the mod.

There are two parts to this task. The first is to go over the quotes that we have been using in EB1 and to better identify their sources. In many cases this would mean book, chapter and line numbers. This would be desirable even when the authenticity of the quote is not in question, as it would be an aid to anyone wishing to read further in the context of the original source, or if anyone wished to offer an improved translation.

For example, "Alea iacta est", "Let the dice fly high!" or "The die is cast." is I'm sure known by everyone in the RTW community as what Gaius Julius Caesar said when he crossed the Rubicon. However, even this simple and well-know quote would benefit from better citation.

And so, when he was come to the river Rubicon, which was the boundary of the province allotted to him, he stood in silence and delayed to cross, reasoning with himself, of course, upon the magnitude of his adventure. Then, like one who casts himself from a precipice into a yawning abyss, he closed the eyes of reason and put a veil between them and his peril,

Ἑλληνιστὶ πρὸς τοὺς παρόντας ἐκβοήσας, "Ἀνερρίφθω κύβος," διεβίβαζε τὸν στρατόν.

He [Caesar] declared in Greek with loud voice to those who were present 'Let the die be cast' and led the army across.
Plutarch, 'Life of Pompey, 60.2.9'

Caesar was in fact borrowing a phrase from Menander, a Greek writer of comedy, and some sardonic humour or irony may have been intended, and not the usual modern sense of 'things have gone past the point of no return'. According to Lewis and Short, the phrase used was a future active imperative, Iacta alea esto, "Let the die be cast!", or "Let the game be ventured!" This is the meaning of Plutarch's third-person imperative ἀνεῤῥίφθω κύβος.

Another version of the incident is

Cunctanti ostentum tale factum est. quidam eximia magnitudine et forma in proximo sedens repente apparuit harundine canens; ad quem audiendum cum praeter pastores plurimi etiam ex stationibus milites concurrissent interque eos et aeneatores, rapta ab uno tuba prosiliuit ad flumen et ingenti spiritu classicum exorsus pertendit ad alteram ripam. tunc Caesar: 'eatur,' inquit, 'quo deorum ostenta et inimicorum iniquitas uocat. iacta alea est,' inquit.

While he was thus hesitating, the following incident occurred. A person remarkable for his noble mien and graceful aspect, appeared close at hand, sitting and playing upon a pipe. When, not only the shepherds, but a number of soldiers also flocked from their posts to listen to him, and some trumpeters among them, he snatched a trumpet from one of them, ran to the river with it, and sounding the advance with a piercing blast, crossed to the other side. Upon this, Caesar exclaimed, " Let us go where the omens of the Gods and the iniquity of our enemies call us. The die is now cast."

Suetonius, Divus Iulius, paragraph 32/3
So just by correctly citing Plutarch and Suetonius, we open up a whole new world of possible meanings. Did Caesar speak in Greek or Latin? Was he being fatalistic, or was he trying to boost morale by being pithy and witty? There is not enough room on the loading screen for all of this, but a few line numbers make it possible for anyone to dig as deeply into it as they wish.

The second and probably more popular part of this project is to propose new quotes for inclusion into EB II. There are already many Greek and Latin authors, so it would be preferable to broaden our scope as much as possible. However, really good and interesting quotes from Latin or Greek are still worthwhile proposing.

What we're looking for are quotes contemporary to the 3rd century BCE and up to the 1st or 2nd century CE. Do not feel restricted to the 'Factions': quotes from or about any people on the map will be welcomed, from Lusitania to the Punjab and everywhere in between.

Sources from much later than our time period will probably not be considered. Beowulf, the Tain, the Hildebrandslied; these won't do. But it's better to try and find something good than not, so if in doubt post it.

Texts are the obvious place to look, but numismatic (coins) and epigraphic (inscriptions on stone) sources are also good. Someone could look into the Edicts of Ashoka, for example, or the Res Gestae.

The Perseus Project (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cache/perscoll_Greco-Roman.html) is a good place to start for texts, and my own Periplus (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=111234) thread has a lot of good links and some primary texts. There's lots out there, people. Go get 'em.

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The Rules

1. No Spam will be tolerated. Spurious, "funny", or obscene posts will be deleted and the poster reported to global moderators if necessary. If the Team's time is wasted on policing juvenile spam, the project will be abandoned and the thread locked and/or deleted.

2. Read the Quotes already in EB or already proposed. Posting something that is already there just wastes everyone's time. A search of the thread will help determine if your author has already been posted.

3. Follow the Format, please.

Desired Format

Quote in original if possible
Quote translated
Author, Work, Chapter or Line if possible, other reference if not

4. The Team will decide which quotes will be included. There may be an upper limit to how many quotes are possible, and overall balance will also be a consideration. Ultimately, we'll decide which quotes go in the release, although anyone can modify their own version if they wish.

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These Quotes Still Need Proper Citation (Updated June 12- I might have missed one or two)

{Author_102} Aeschylus
{Quote_102} In war, truth is the first casualty

{Author_114} Dionysius of Halicarnassus
{Quote_114} Only the brave enjoy noble and glorious deaths.

{Author_121} Euripides
{Quote_121} Danger gleams like sunshine to a brave man's eyes.

{Author_132} Thucydides
{Quote_132} Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage.

{Author_138} Hannibal, asked by Antiochus if his richly ornamented army was enough to defeat the Romans at Magnesia, ca. 189BC
{Quote_138} Indeed they will be more than enough, even though the Romans are the greediest nation on earth!

{Author_141} Athenogoras of Syracuse
{Quote_141} If a man does not strike first, he will be the first struck.

{Author_144} Polybius, The Histories, On the Mercenaries War
{Quote_144} This war had lasted for three years and four months, and it far excelled all wars we know of in cruelty and defiance of principle.

{Author_28} Thucydides
{Quote_28} A collision at sea can ruin your entire day.

{Author_45} Lucius Annaeus Seneca
{Quote_45} In war there is no prize for runner-up.

{Author_51} Hieronymus of Cardia
{Quote_51} The Celts rushed on their enemy with the fury of a wild beast. Hacked with swords and axes, and pierced with missles, their rage died only with life itself. Some even plucked out the weapons that struck them and hurled them back at the Greeks.

{Author_57} Polybius
{Quote_57} A good general not only sees the way to victory, he also knows when victory is impossible.

{Author_58} Polybius
{Quote_58} In war we must always leave room for strokes of fortune, and accidents that cannot be foreseen.

{Author_62} Lucius Annaeus Seneca
{Quote_62} Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentis telum est A sword is never a killer, it's a tool in the killer's hands.

{Author_67} Socrates
{Quote_67} A disorderly mob is no more an army than a heap of building materials is a house.

{Author_68} Sophacles
{Quote_68} Quick decisions are unsafe decisions.

{Author_75} Thucydides
{Quote_75} War is not so much a matter of weapons as of money.

{Author_77} Hannibal Barca, addressing Phormio's lecture on leadership
{Quote_77} I have seen during my life many an old fool; but this one beats them all.

{Author_82} Xenophon
{Quote_82} When one side goes against the enemy with the gods' gift of stronger morale, then their adversaries, as a rule, cannot withstand them.

{Author_87} Aeschylus
{Quote_87} ...now in place of the young men urns and ashes are carried home to houses of the fighters.

{Author_88} Demosthenes
{Quote_88} Beware lest in your anxiety to avoid war you obtain a master.

{Author_97} Euripides
{Quote_97} Courage may be taught as a child is taught to speak.

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oudysseos

03-06-2009, 14:07

Don't everyone talk at once...

Here's an example or two;

Negat ullius consilium imperatoris in speciem audacius, re ipsa tutius fuisse quam suum: ad certam eos se uictoriam ducere
No commander has ever adopted a plan apparently more reckless, but actually more sure of success, than this of mine. I am leading you to certain victory.
Claudius Nero, marching to reinforce Livius at the Metaurus (Livy 27.45)

Basileos Basileon Arsakou Euergetou Dikaiou Epiphanous Philillenos
Of the King of Kings, Arsaces, Beneficent, Just, Outstanding, Friend to Greeks.
Legend on a Parthian Coin

Many of the societies from which we would like to have quotes were non-literate, or like the Gauls wrote mostly inscriptions using Greek letters. That's o.k., we could use some of that if someone can find something good.
The other way to get in quotes from non-literate peoples (or from peoples whose literature has not survived) is to look at Greek and Roman authors who wrote about them: Herodotus wrote about Scythians, Persians, Egyptians and everyone else. Tactitus and Arrian, though from a later time, wrote extensively about Germans, British, Indians and so on. Strabo and the other geographers might also have some quotable passages about almost anywhere on our map. So that's o.k. too.

And be creative: the Milinda Pañha or Questions of Milinda is a Buddhist text which dates from approximately 100 BCE, and it purports to record a dialogue in which the Indo-Greek king Menander I (Milinda in Pali) of Bactria, who reigned in the second century BCE, poses questions on Buddhism to the sage Nāgasena. So maybe there are some good Baktrian quotes there: or as I mentioned one could look in the Edicts of Ashoka:

Amtiyoko nama Yona-raja param ca tena Atiyokena cature 4 rajani Turamaye nama Amtikini nama Maka nama Alikasudaro nama
Now it is conquest by Dhamma that Beloved-of-the-Gods considers to be the best conquest. And it (conquest by Dhamma) has been won here, on the borders, even six hundred yojanas away, where the Greek king Antiochos rules, beyond there where the four kings named Ptolemy, Antigonos, Magas and Alexander rule, likewise in the south among the Cholas, the Pandyas, and as far as Tamraparni.
Rock Edict Nb13 (S. Dhammika)

No, this doesn't mean there's going to be a Mauryan faction in EB2: but an Indian quote that references Greeks is definitely worthy of consideration.

machinor

03-06-2009, 20:22

Two quotes from Aristotle's politics regarding kingship and tyranny:

hapantes gar euergetêsantes ê dunamenoi tas poleis ê ta ethnê euergetein etunchanon tês timês tautês, hoi men kata polemon kôlusantes douleuein, hôsper Kodros, hoi d' eleutherôsantes, hôsper Kuros, ê ktisantes ê ktêsamenoi chôran, hôsper hoi Lakedaimoniôn basileis kai Makedonôn kai Molottôn.
For in every instance this honor fell to men after they had conferred benefit or because they had the ability to confer benefit on their cities or their nations, some having prevented their enslavement in war, for instance Codrus, others having set them free, for instance Cyrus, or having settled or acquired territory, for instance the kings of Sparta and Macedon and the Molossians.
Aristotle, Politics, Book V, 1310b

dio kai tôn pleonektêmatôn ta men chrêmata turannika, ta d' eis timên basilika mallon: kai phulakê basilikê men politikê, turannikê de dia xenôn.
Hence even in their requisitions money is the aim of tyrants but rather marks of honor that of kings; and a king's body-guard consists of citizens, a tyrant's of foreign mercenaries.
Aristotle, Politics, Book V, 1311a

The first quote is a bit long... but interesting nontheless since it references the origin of Spartan, Makedonian and Molossan kingship (it does however NOT refer to the Hellenistic kings of each of the states) as being basically spear-conquered states.

I will post some more quotes if I stumble across any.

EDIT:
The detailed reference for the Aristophanes quote:

ANGELOS

ienai s' ekeleuon hoi stratêgoi têmeron
tacheôs labonta tous lochous kai tous lophous:
kapeita têrein neiphomenon tas esbolas.
hupo tous Choas gar kai Chutrous autoisi tis
êngeile lêistas embalein Boiôtious.

LAMACHOS

iô stratêgoi pleiones ê beltiones.
ou deina mê 'xeinai me mêd' heortasai;

HERALD

The Generals order you forthwith to take your battalions and your plumes, and, despite the snow, to go and guard our borders. They have learnt that a band of Boeotians intend taking advantage of the Feast of Cups to invade our country.

LAMACHUS

Ah! the Generals! they are numerous, but not good for much! It's cruel, not to be able to enjoy the feast!

Aristophanes, "Acharians", episode 4, lines 1073-9 [The "Ah! The Generals..." line is line 1078]

Ibrahim

03-07-2009, 18:35

لَقيناهم بأَسيافٍ حِدادٍ *وأسدٍ لا تفر منَ المنيهْ/ وكان زعيمُهُمْ إذْ ذاكَ لَيثاً * هزبراً لا يبالي بالرزيهْ/ فخَلَّفناهُ وسْطَ القاع مُلْقى* وها أنا طالب قتل البقيهْ

“we met them with iron swords*and a lion that does not flee from the dying/and their leader was then a lion*, a lion who cares not for disaster/so we left him in the middle of the plain dumped*, and here I demand the slaying of the rest.”

-Antarah ibn shadad of Abas, about a victory against the hanthal tribe, c.600AD

EDIT: more:

أيا ابنة عبد الله، وابنة مالكٍ،* وبا ابنة َ ذي البُرْدينِ والفرَسِ الوردِ/ إذا ما صنعت الزاد، فالتمسي لهُ * أكيلاً، فإني لست آكلهُ وحدي / أخا طارقاً، أو جار بيتٍ، فإنني* أخافُ مَذَمّاتِ الأحاديثِ من بعدي / وإنّي لعَبْدُ الضّيفِ، ما دام ثاوياً* وما فيّ، إلاّ تلكَ،من شيمة ِ العَبدِ/

“Oh daughter of abd ullah and daughter of malik * and daughter(or abnah, another person) with the two cloaks and the rose horse /If I made provisions, then beseech for it* an eater, for I am not eating it alone;/ brother tariq, or neighbor of a house, for I * fear the blames of the sayings from after me/ and I am a servant of the guest, so long as he stays * and except for that, there is no trait of a servant within me.”

hatim at-taa'i, on generosity, and his motivation behind it. its like that king In EB who said no one should beat him in generosity.

I'll try to find more. and no, the translation is not perfect-Arabic is a pain to translate; I fear some of the origional intent was lost.

@moderators: someone should deal with the post above mine.

machinor

03-07-2009, 18:36

Seriously Skullheadhq, is it so damn hard, do follow the rules of this thread? :shame:

keravnos

03-08-2009, 10:35

machinor would it be easy to post in the original greek with τόνοι, δασείες, περισπωμένες, etc?

The goal for EBII would be to use the original greek, wherever possible.

SwissBarbar

03-08-2009, 13:11

As far as I see it here, one of the most famous quotes of Caesar is not included:

Veni, vidi, vici

Gaius Iulius Caesar, describing his victory in the Battle of Zela over Pharnaces II of Pontus in his letter to Amintius 47 BC

"Pontico triumpho inter pompae fercula trium uerborum praetulit titulum veni vidi vici non acta belli significantem sicut ceteris, sed celeriter confecti notam"

During the pontic triumphal procession he (Caesar), among all the other stuff, let carry along an inscription consisting of 3 words: I came, I saw, I prevailed; unlike anything else it should not refer to what happened in the war, but how fast the enemy was defeated. (this is my own humble translation, surely you are better in it)

Caius Suetonius Tranquillus, De Vita Caesarum, VITA DIVI IVLI, 37

Also Plutarch is quoting this veni vidi vici somewhere...

SwissBarbar

03-08-2009, 13:29

O bellum magno opere pertimescendum, cum hanc sit habiturus Catilina scortorum cohortem praetoriam!

O how much is this war to be feared, for Catilina will have this guard of whores around himself! (again you might translate this better)

Marcus Tullius Cicero, Oratio in Catilinam Altera, 24

oudysseos

03-08-2009, 16:03

Machinor, thanks for kicking things off! And particularly for being the first to hunt down the cite for an existing quote!

Ibrahim, Swiss Barbar, good stuff!

machinor

03-08-2009, 19:23

machinor would it be easy to post in the original greek with τόνοι, δασείες, περισπωμένες, etc?

The goal for EBII would be to use the original greek, wherever possible.
Didn't think of that. I'll see what I can find. Unfortunatly the Perseus Project only features transliterated Greek texts and none written in Greek. ~:(

Ibrahim

03-09-2009, 00:34

يَا مَعْشرَ بكْرٍ ، هالِكٌ مَعْذورٌ خير مِنْ ناجٍ فرور، إنّ الحذَر لا يُنجي من القَدَرِ، وإنّ الصّبْرَ مِنْ أسْبَابِ الظّفرِ، المَنيّة ولا الدَّنيّةُ، و استقبالُ الموتِ خير مِنْ استِدبَاره

"oh people of bakr! an excused dead is better than a running survivor*, and caution does not save from fate, patience is of the reasons of triumph, death and not dishonor, and recieving death is better than turning your back on it"

*routing off a battle.

haani ibn mas3uud at the battle of dhi qar, 609AD.

here is the link for the full speech:
http://www.iu.edu.sa/Edu/mutawasit/nusus3_1.htm

EDIT: in case anyone is wondering why I am using 6-7th century arab works, its threefold:
1-no speeches before 450AD
2-there is a shocking lack of speeches from Arabia-whether of saba', or any other Arabian people in EB.
3-some of these are fitting for EB, no? :wink:

oudysseos

03-09-2009, 08:58

Machinor, don't sweat it: if necessary I can enter in the greek text for quotes. BTW, all you have to do on Perseus is change display to show greek.

oudysseos

03-09-2009, 15:43

I am hoping to find some actual Punic to use for quotes. Here's a passage from Plautus, Poenulus, Act 5:

Hyth alonim vualonuth sicorathi si ma com sith, Chi mach chumyth mumys tyal mictibariim ischi, Lipho canet luth bynuthi ad ædin bynuthii. Birnarob syllo homalonin uby misyrthoho Bythym mothym noctothii velech Antidasmachon. Yssidele berim thyfel yth chylys chon, tern, lyphul Uth bynim ysdibut thinno cuth ru Agorastocles Ythe manet ihy * * chyrsæ lycoch sith naso Byuni id chil luhili gerbylim lasibit thym Bodyalyth herayn nyn nuys lym moncoth lusim. [Exalonim volanus succuratim mistim Atticum esse Concubitum a bello cutim beant lalacant chona Enus es huiec silec panesse Athidamascon Alem * * induberte felono * * buthume Celtum comucro lueni, at enim avoso uber Bent hyach Aristoclem et se te aneche nasoctelia Elicos alemus [in] duberter mi comps vespiti Aodeanee lictor bodes jussum limnicolus.

According to Perseus, the first sentence "Hyth alonim vualonuth sicorathi si ma com sith" means "I worship the Gods and Goddesses who preside over this city" which is a ok quote.

Here is a link (http://website.leidenuniv.nl/~jongelingk/projects/latpun/Lat-Pun/Lp.htm) to an excellent site on Latino- and Graeco-Punic texts from North Africa but is highly technical.

There's also a book, Late Punic Epigraphy, By K. Jongeling, Robert M. Kerr, which is the current state-of-the-art on Punic inscriptions, but I have only seen it on google books preview.

There's also some interesting work being done at the Bavarian State Library in Munich, who are in the possession of hundreds of pieces of Sabaean miniscule script, like this:

http://www.uni-jena.de/img/unijena_/faculties/phil/iskvo/sp1_max.jpg

But I haven't seen any translations as yet.

V.T. Marvin

03-09-2009, 16:04

Great idea! :2thumbsup:
Here is my humble contribution: specifying the source of this quote:
"Ignoranti, quem portum petat, nullus suus ventus est - If a man does not know to what port he is sailing, no wind is favourable" Seneca, Epistulae morales ad Lucilium, VIII, LXXI, 3.

machinor

03-09-2009, 18:14

Thanks for the tip, oudysseos. Wasn't aware of that display configuration thingy. :2thumbsup:

Here once again come the quotes. First the Aristophanes quote:

̓́Αγγελος

ἰέναι σ' ἐκέλευον οἱ στρατηγοὶ τήμερον
ταχέως λαβόντα τοὺς λόχους καὶ τοὺς λόφους:
κἄπειτα τηρει̂ν νειφόμενον τὰς ἐσβολάς.
ὑπὸ τοὺς Χοα̂ς γὰρ καὶ Χύτρους αὐτοι̂σί τις
ἤγγειλε λῃστὰς ἐμβαλει̂ν Βοιωτίους.

Λάμαχος

ἰὼ στρατηγοὶ πλείονες ἢ βελτίονες.
οὐ δεινὰ μὴ 'ξει̂ναί με μηδ' ἑορτάσαι;

HERALD

The Generals order you forthwith to take your battalions and your plumes, and, despite the snow, to go and guard our borders. They have learnt that a band of Boeotians intend taking advantage of the Feast of Cups to invade our country.

LAMACHUS

Ah! the Generals! they are numerous, but not good for much! It's cruel, not to be able to enjoy the feast!

Aristophanes, "[The] Acharnians", episode 4, lines 1073-9 [The "Ah! The Generals..." line is line 1078]

And the Aristotle ones:

ἅπαντες γὰρ εὐεργετήσαντες ἢ δυνάμενοι τὰς πόλεις ἢ τὰ ἔθνη εὐεργετει̂ν ἐτύγχανον τη̂ς τιμη̂ς ταύτης, οἱ μὲν κατὰ πόλεμον κωλύσαντες δουλεύειν, ὥσπερ Κόδρος, οἱ δ' ἐλευθερώσαντες, ὥσπερ Κυ̂ρος, ἢ κτίσαντες ἢ κτησάμενοι χώραν, ὥσπερ οἱ Λακεδαιμονίων βασιλει̂ς καὶ Μακεδόνων καὶ Μολοττω̂ν.
For in every instance this honor fell to men after they had conferred benefit or because they had the ability to confer benefit on their cities or their nations, some having prevented their enslavement in war, for instance Codrus, others having set them free, for instance Cyrus, or having settled or acquired territory, for instance the kings of Sparta and Macedon and the Molossians.
Aristotle, Politics, Book V, 1310b

βασιλικὸς δὲ τὸ καλόν. διὸ καὶ τω̂ν πλεονεκτημάτων τὰ μὲν χρήματα τυραννικὰ, τὰ δ' εἰς τιμὴν βασιλικὰ μα̂λλον: καὶ φυλακὴ βασιλικὴ μὲν πολιτική, τυραννικὴ δὲ διὰ ξένων.
Hence even in their requisitions money is the aim of tyrants but rather marks of honor that of kings; and a king's body-guard consists of citizens, a tyrant's of foreign mercenaries.
Aristotle, Politics, Book V, 1311a

Elmetiacos

03-09-2009, 18:43

Andraste basbhcoradhan - "Andrasta brings death to the wicked"
Inscription on a British idol to the goddess Andrasta
Andraste is mentioned only by Dio Cassius (or Cassius Dio) as invoked by Boudicca before battle. There are no dedications to her. Bás means "death" and coradh means a bend in a road, both in Irish. What he puts into Boudicca's mouth in Book 62 of his Roman History is largely ridiculous, repeating all the Roman ideas of the Britons as savage cavemen, but this one is good even though she probably never said it:
"Let us show them that they are hares and foxes trying to rule over dogs and wolves." (LXII, 5)

Tyn fian dwma fiatua!
I am a freeman in a free state!
Last words of Dumnorix. Refused to be a hostage, and killed by Julius Caesar's men
According to De Bello Gallica Book 5, VII: "He, [Dumnorix] however, when recalled, began to resist and defend himself with his hand, and implore the support of his people, often exclaiming that 'he was free and the subject of a free state.' They surround and kill the man as they had been commanded; but the Aeduan horsemen all return to Caesar." We don't have the original Gaulish and if we did, this certainly wouldn't be it. *Rêdis biu, tôtios tôtas rêdis imi or something like that.

Timidios di Albhae Bren!
For the true king of Britain!
Rallying cry of the Catuvellaunians/Casse
This is mocked-up Celtic again, a mixture of modern Welsh and Irish. You'd want something like *Rigonui uerui Pretannion... but how would we know what they shouted anyway? It's not in Caesar.

Toutava, marae, da augu, tosgo, mavi Vergalla!
For tribe, family, and honor, forward, sons of Great Gaul!
Inscription on a statue of Dis, the mythic founder of Gaul
Dis isn't the mythical founder of Gaul. He's a Roman god, equivalent to someone (we're not sure who) the Gauls believed in as some sort of ancestral God - if Caesar is correct.

These quotations look very suspect, and I'd ask for sources for them:

They say I am most beautiful of our tribe. How exquisite that I am then held to high standards. It is an honor to reward the gifts of the gods with dutiful service.
Orriagh Raighnaigha

I care nothing for my own life. In the service of the tribe, the king, and the kingdom, are all that matter. I must defend it, and all who live within it.
Llwnn yn Orddae

Rabo!
Ancient Celtic or Iberian warcry; forerunner of the dark age and medieval Gaelic 'Abu'

What Celtic writings do we have from (roughly) the EB period that are genuine? Unfortunately, there isn't much in Gaulish that's at all warlike... geneta imi daga uimpi is a well known one that means "I am a good and pretty girl". One of the longest Gaulish texts is the Larzac tablet, a long complaint and curse on a woman who swindled the author over some livestock. It includes the words: sue cluiou se dagisamo cele uiro íono ue ííobiíe beíiassu sete which, paraphrasing Bernard Mees' translation is "A hearing for this best companion, true and just, is desired: may you begin punishing!" As for the Britons, we seem to have nothing but coin legends and nothing but Ogam stones saying "X son of Y from tribe Z" for the Irish. There's no Gaulish in Egypt either: the temple grafitto in question was written by Galatians, but in Greek.

Here's some warlike Old Irish (search for "excellence of the ancient word" for more stuff like this)
dom roich mo coilg ndaighneimhneach,
frithálta mo sciath
"To my reach, my sword of burning poison, having attended to my shield"
-The Druid Mogh Ruith, Forbuis Druim Damhghaire

SwissBarbar

03-09-2009, 23:38

Sciebam me genuisse mortalem!
I knew that I procreated a mortal

- Anaxagoras' reaction on the message of his son's death -

Cicero, Rhetorica, Tusculanae Disputationes, Liber Tertius, 30

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Nemo sibi tantummodo errat, sed alieni erroris et causa et auctor est.
No one is mistaken only for himself, he thereby also is the originator of the misapprehensions of others

Lucius Annaeus Seneca, De vita beata, 1,4

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Eo de media nocte Caesar isdem ducibus usus qui nuntii ab Iccio venerant, Numidas et Cretas sagittarios et funditores Baleares subsidio oppidanis mittit

Not long after midnight, Caeser sent the citizens reinforcements/help, consisting of Numidian and Cretan archers and slingers from the Balearics, and let them be guided there by those who had come as messenger of Iccius.... or so :dizzy2:

- No important or famous quote, but it's about Cretan Archers and Balearic slingers - :2thumbsup:

Caesar - De Bello Gallico, Liber II, 7

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Translation's correctness not guaranteed

Swissbarbar - The Europa Barbarorum Quotes Project, Post 17

machinor

03-10-2009, 00:13

Correct reference for 2 Plato quotes from the Politeia:

1) "When the tyrant has disposed of foreign enemies by conquest or treaty, and there is nothing more to fear from them, then he is always stirring up some war or other, in order that the people may require a leader."

ὅταν δέ γε οἰ̂μαι πρὸς τοὺς ἔξω ἐχθροὺς τοι̂ς μὲν καταλλαγῃ̂, τοὺς δὲ καὶ διαφθείρῃ, καὶ ἡσυχία ἐκείνων γένηται, πρω̂τον μὲν πολέμους τινὰς ἀεὶ κινει̂, ἵν' ἐν χρείᾳ ἡγεμόνος ὁ δη̂μος ᾐ̂.
But when, I suppose, he [the tyrant] has come to terms with some of his exiled enemies and has got others destroyed and is no longer disturbed by them, in the first place he is always stirring up some war so that the people may be in need of a leader.
Plato, Republic, Book VIII, 566a

2) "The rulers of the States are the only ones who should have the privilege of lying"

τοι̂ς ἄρχουσιν δὴ τη̂ς πόλεως, εἴπερ τισὶν ἄλλοις, προσήκει ψεύδεσθαι ἢ πολεμίων ἢ πολιτω̂ν ἕνεκα ἐπ' ὠφελίᾳ τη̂ς πόλεως, τοι̂ς δὲ ἄλλοις πα̂σιν οὐχ ἁπτέον του̂ τοιούτου:
The rulers then of the city may, if anybody, fitly lie on account of enemies or citizens for the benefit of the state; no others may have anything to do with it
Plato, Republic, Book III, 389b

Especially the second quote changes quite a bit in the correct quotation. It's obvious that the second one is a vanilla RTW quote.

Since I will be sitting at home the next few days, I'll check the correct references for the Homer quotes.

Βελισάριος

03-10-2009, 06:27

Reading Plutarch's account of the life of Pyrrhos, I found a passage that I felt would very well describe the nature of the times in which EB's campaign takes place and its leaders.
I'm sorry I can't give the Greek [original] version of this text, but while I was reading through the book, I found this quote which I found to be very intriguing.

"For how men to whose rapacity neither sea nor mountain nor uninhabitable desert sets a limit, men to whose inordinate desires the boundaries which separate Europe and Asia put no stop, can remain content with what they have and do one another no wrong when they are in close touch, it is impossible to say. Nay, they are perpetually at war, because plots and jealousies are parts of their natures, and they treat the two words, war and peace, like current coins, using whichever happens to be for their advantage, regardless of justice [...]"

My suggestions on how to excerpt the text to fit the loading screen:
"For how men to whose rapacity neither sea nor mountain nor uninhabitable desert sets a limit, [...] can remain content with what they have and do one another no wrong when they are in close touch, it is impossible to say."

Which leaves this as a possible separate quote and it works well on its own:
"Nay, they are perpetually at war, because plots and jealousies are parts of their natures, and they treat the two words, war and peace, like current coins, using whichever happens to be for their advantage, regardless of justice"

From Plutarch's "Parallel Lives", Vol. IX, Pyrrhos. Loeb Classical Library edition, translation by Bernadotte Perrin.

More from the same book:

And I found this one to be relevant to the nature of one of the major Hellenic factions:
"For he [Demetrios] found that the Macedonians were better disposed when they were on a campaign than when they were unoccupied, [and he himself was by nature entirely averse to keeping quiet.]"

After Pyrrhos was driven out of Macedonia by Lysimachos and returned to Epeiros, Plutarch describes him thus:
"But he thought it tedious to the point of nausea if he were not inflicting mischief on others or suffering it at others' hands, and like Achilles could not endure idleness."

I'll be more than glad to add more as I read on, if you find these to be useful.

Brucaliffo

03-10-2009, 08:49

"Uri vinciri verberari ferroque necari"

“(I will endure) to be burned, to be bound, to be beaten, and to be killed by the sword”

Gladiator's oath, Petronius, Satyricon 117

oudysseos

03-10-2009, 09:09

Wow guys, there's some great stuff here. I'm going to start working it in to the new quotes.txt.

Tell you what, the new quotes are for EB2, but once I get that done, I'll have a look at retrofitting the quotes for EB1 as well, 'cos otherwise it'd be a long time until anyone saw these.

If anyone is interested, you could look into Callimachus, Theocritus, Appolonius of Rhodes, Lycophron, Nicander, and Aratus of Soli: the Hellenistic Poets might be good sources for Greek quotes that are less well known. Perseus, Attalus and Theoi all have these guys online.

Re: the Celtic quotes: I just want everyone to know that there is in fact a source for these (and the Telam stuff that's been removed), that I have confirmed with a relative at Trinity the existence of the source, but that I have not had the time to truck down to the National Library and see what the deal is (a one-year old boy takes up a lot of time). Pursuant to my own goal of confirming/citing the quotes, I will provisionally remove all of the questionable quotes until such a time as I can see for myself where they come from and in what context. This, I should emphasize, is not an official team position, but something that I have taken upon myself.

In the mean time, I am willing to at least consider material from a later time period. I know this somewhat contradicts what I wrote in the original post, but I already told Ibrahim to go ahead with later Arabic material, and if Elmetiacos (or anyone) wants to look into the earliest Irish literature and find something really good, it's worthwhile at least posting it here and having a look.

P.S. It would save me some time if someone could send me the quotes.txt file from the latest EB1.2 build: I don't have RTW installed at the moment. I could put in some of the new quotes and post it as a mini-mod.

Thanks everyone, keep up the good work.

SwissBarbar

03-10-2009, 10:32

Μικρὸν ἀπὸ τοῦ ἡλίου μετάστηθι
Stand out of my sunlight

Diogenes replying to Alexander the Great's offer, that he had a free wish.

(That's one of my favourites, but IDK where to find the Original)

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Μή μου τοὺς κύκλους τάραττε
Don't disturb my circles

Last words of Archimedes, addressed to a Roman soldier who tramped on his geometrical froms in the garden, when the Romans stormed the city of Syrakousai in the Second Punic War. The Soldier killed him, enraged by his words, though he had the order not to harm him.

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Μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληιάδεω Ἀχιλῆος
οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί' Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε' ἔθηκεν
Sing, Goddess, of the rage, of Peleus' son Achilles
the accursed rage, which brought pain to thousands of the Achaeans.

Homer, Ilias, first 2 lines.

NIKOMAHOS

03-10-2009, 17:25

Something from my favourite Nikolaos Kazantzakis and one of his less known but one of the best works of NK, ASKITIKI or Salvatores dei page 32

Ν'αγαπάς την ευθύνη. Να λες: Εγώ, εγώ μονάχος μου έχω χρέος να σώσω τη Γης. Αν δε σωθεί εγώ θα φταίω.

Love the responsibility. Say: Me, me on my own i have the duty to save the earth. In case she is not safe i will be responsible.

In case a better translation is available please do not hesitate to post here or in any other of my posts here.

I would like to apologise for you all because i will spent your time here. I had a manner to write everything i liked in all books i red the last 10 years and i have 500 pages with quotes like this...

Great post my companions.

machinor

03-10-2009, 21:09

The Homer quotes:

1) "There can be no covenants between men and lions, wolves and lambs can never be of one mind"

ὡς οὐκ ἔστι λέουσι καὶ ἀνδράσιν ὅρκια πιστά,
οὐδὲ λύκοι τε καὶ ἄρνες ὁμόφρονα θυμὸν ἔχουσιν
There can be no covenants between men and lions,
wolves and lambs can never be of one mind
Homer, Illiad, Book XXII, lines 262-263

2) "Fight for your country - that is the best, the only omen!"

εἱ̂ς οἰωνὸς ἄριστος ἀμύνεσθαι περὶ πάτρης.
There is one omen, and one only - that a man should fight for his country.
Homer, Illiad, Book XII, line 243

3) "The blade itself incites to violence"

Haven't found anything. This seems to be either a sloppy translation or a misquote.

4) "A glorious death is his who for his country falls"

ὃς δέ κεν ὑμέων
βλήμενος ἠὲ τυπεὶς θάνατον καὶ πότμον ἐπίσπῃ
τεθνάτω: οὔ οἱ ἀεικὲς ἀμυνομένῳ περὶ πάτρης
τεθνάμεν:
If any of you is struck by spear or sword and loses his life, let him die;
he dies with honor who dies fighting for his country;
Homer, Illiad, Book XV, lines 496-497 [the whole part I quoted are lines 494-497]

I used the Samuel Butler edition for all English translations as the first quote fits directly to that translation. However, anyone is welcome to bring some alternative translations as these are not always literal. For example the last quote would not mean "it is honorful/glorious to die for one's country" but literally "it is not shameful/unfitting to die for one's country". This is of course a matter of nuances but as such it should be open to debate... especially in a work of literature.

DeathFinger

03-10-2009, 22:39

About Ateas, the famous King of Scythia.

Ἰσμηνίαν δὲ τὸν ἄριστον αὐλητὴν λαβὼν αἰχμάλωτον ἐκέλευσεν αὐλῆσαι· θαυμαζόντων δὲ τῶν ἄλλων αὐτὸς ὤμοσεν ἥδιον ἀκούειν τοῦ ἵππου χρεμετίζοντος.
He took prisoner Ismenias, an excellent piper, and commanded him to play; and when others admired him, he swore it was more pleasant to hear a horse neigh.
Plutarch, Moralia, Apophtegm of kings and famous commanders, 174e-f

Must place it in a special context: trusting Herodot, Scythians usually avoid to borrow foreign customs, particularly Hellenistic ones. But it seems that in this period (the large IVe) some of them adopted more and more ofen theses customs. So we have here something like a "cultural-conflict" :laugh4:

Σκιλοῦρος 〈ὁ〉 ὀγδοήκοντα παῖδας ἄρρενας ἀπολιπὼν ἐπεὶ τελευτᾶν ἔμελλε, δέσμην ἀκοντίων ἑκάστῳ προτείνων ἐκέλευσε καταθραῦσαι· πάντων δ´ ἀπαγορευσάντων, 〈ἓν〉 καθ´ ἓν αὐτὸς ἐξελὼν ἀκόντιον ἅπαντα ῥᾳδίως συνέκλασε, διδάσκων ἐκείνους ὅτι συνεστῶτες ἰσχυροὶ διαμενοῦσιν, ἀσθενεῖς δ´ ἔσονται διαλυθέντες καὶ στασιάσαντες.
Scilurus on his death-bed, being about to leave eighty sons surviving, offered a bundle of darts to each of them, and bade them break them. When all refused, drawing out one by one, he easily broke them; thus teaching them that, if they held together, they would continue strong, but if they fell out and were divided, they would become weak.
Plutarch, Moralia, Apophtegm of kings and famous commanders, 174f

I very like this one. :2thumbsup:

Smeel

03-10-2009, 22:56

Fuisse apud eos et Herculem memorant, primumque omnium virorum fortium ituri in proelia canunt
They say that Hercules, too, once visited them; and when going into battle, they sing of him first of all heroes.
Tacitus, describing the germanic peoples, De Origine et situ Germanorum, Chapter 3,1

I will finally read through my Tacitus translation links, brb :book::book::book:

Elmetiacos

03-10-2009, 23:25

'If you want everyone in the world at your command, does it follow everyone must accept slavery?' (Nam si vos omnibus imperitare vultis, sequitur ut omnes servitutem accipiant?)
-Caratacos of the Catuvellauni before the Romans (Tacitus Annales Book 12)

Vae victis!
Woe to the Vanquished!
-Brennus, leader of the Gauls besieging Rome (Livy, Ab Urbe Condita)

'Our right we carry on the points of our swords, for to the brave belong all things.'
-the Gauls' reply to the Roman ambassadors (Livy, Ab Urbe Condita)

oudysseos

03-11-2009, 09:49

Here's a couple that I copied from The Celts: A History, by Dáithí O hOgain. There is a concordance of citations in the book: I'll hunt them up on Perseus and add in the original text where possible.

But Poseidonius, in the twenty-third book of his Histories, says, "The Celts sometimes have single combats at their entertainments. For having assembled in arms, they go through the exercise, and make feints at, and sometimes they even go so far as to wound one another. And being irritated by this, if the bystanders do not stop them, they will proceed even to kill one another. But in olden times," he continues, "there was a custom that a hind quarter of pork was put on the table, and the bravest man took it; and if any one else laid claim to it, then the two rose up to fight till one of them was slain".
Quoted in Athenaeus: The Deipnosophists

There is also that custom, barbarous and exotic, which attends most of the northern tribes — I mean the fact that when they depart from the battle they hang the heads of their enemies from the necks of their horses, and, when they have brought them home, nail the spectacle to the entrances of their homes. At any rate, Poseidonius says that he himself saw this spectacle in many places, and that, although at first he loathed it, afterwards, through his familiarity with it, he could bear it calmly. The heads of enemies of high repute, however, they used to embalm in cedar-oil and exhibit to strangers, and they would not deign to give them back even for a ransom of an equal weight of gold.
Strabo, 4.4.5

When they are stirred up they assemble in their bands for battle, quite openly and without forethought, so that they are easily handled by those who desire to outwit them; for at any time or place on whatever pretext you stir them up, you will have hem ready to face danger, even if they have nothing on their side but their own strength and courage... Their strength depends on their mighty bodies, and on their numbers.
Source to be found (Poseidonius)

They rushed on their enemy with the rage and fury and blind courage of a wild beast. Hacked with swords and axes, and pierced with darts and javelins, their fury only died with life itself. Indeed, some even plucked out the weapons that struck them and hurled them back at the Greeks, or used them in hand-to-hand fighting.
Hieronymus of Cardia

οὐ γὰρ θεὸν εἶναι τὸν ἐπιόντα ἐπὶ τὴν Ἑλλάδα ἀλλ' ἄνθρωπον, εἶναι δὲ θνητὸν οὐδένα οὐδὲ ἔσεσθαι τῷ κακὸν ἐξ ἀρχῆς γινομένῳ οὐ συνεμίχθη, τοῖσι δὲ μεγίστοισι αὐτῶν μέγιστα

The invader of Hellas was not a god but a human being, and there was not, and never would be, any mortal on whom some amount of evil was not bestowed at birth, with the greatest men receiving the largest share. The one marching against them was certain to fall from pride, since he was a mortal.

Herodotus, 7.203

ἀνὴρ ἄριστος γενέσθαι Σπαρτιήτης Διηνέκης: τὸν τόδε φασὶ εἰπεῖν τὸ ἔπος πρὶν ἢ συμμῖξαι σφέας τοῖσι Μήδοισι, πυθόμενον πρός τευ τῶν Τρηχινίων ὡς ἐπεὰν οἱ βάρβαροι ἀπίωσι τὰ τοξεύματα, τὸν ἥλιον ὑπὸ τοῦ πλήθεος τῶν ὀιστῶν ἀποκρύπτουσι: τοσοῦτο πλῆθος αὐτῶν εἶναι. [2] τὸν δὲ οὐκ ἐκπλαγέντα τούτοισι εἰπεῖν ἐν ἀλογίῃ ποιεύμενον τὸ Μήδων πλῆθος, ὡς πάντα σφι ἀγαθὰ ὁ Τρηχίνιος ξεῖνος ἀγγέλλοι, εἰ ἀποκρυπτόντων τῶν Μήδων τὸν ἥλιον ὑπὸ σκιῇ ἔσοιτο πρὸς αὐτοὺς ἡ μάχη καὶ οὐκ ἐν ἡλίῳ.

The Spartan Dieneces is said to have exhibited the greatest courage of all. They say that he made the following speech before they joined battle with the Medes: he had learned from a Trachinian that there were so many of the barbarians that when they shot their missiles, the sun was hidden by the multitude of their arrows. He was not at all disturbed by this and made light of the multitude of the Medes, saying that their Trachinian foreigner brought them good news. If the Medes hid the sun, they could fight them in the shade instead.

Herodotus, 7.226

Of course this is all raw material and will have to be edited to fit the loading screen.

Oh and thanks, Machinor. I'll get to work on that.

SwissBarbar

03-11-2009, 12:06

Nihil tam munitum quod non expugnari pecunia possit
Nothing is so well guarded, so it cannot be conquered by money

Marcus Tullius Cicero, In C. Verrem actio prima

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Quote currently in EB
In peace, sons bury their fathers; in war, fathers bury their sons
Herodotus

My suggestion:

οὐδεὶς γὰρ οὕτω ἀνόητος ἐστὶ ὅστις πόλεμον πρὸ εἰρήνης αἱρέεται· ἐν μὲν γὰρ τῇ οἱ παῖδες τοὺς πατέρας θάπτουσι, ἐν δὲ τῷ οἱ πατέρες τοὺς παῖδας

Nobody of sound mind, chooses war over peace, for in one case sons bury their fathers, in the other fathers bury their sons.

Ἡρόδοτος (Hēródotos), ἱστορίαι (historíai) 1, 87, 4

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Quote currently in EB
They make it a desert, and call it peace.
Calgacus, leader of the Caledonians: Tacitus

My suggestion:

Auferre trucidare rapere falsis nominibus imperium, atque ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant
To pillage, to do murder, to spoil, they call it the false name empire, and where they create a desert, they call it peace.

Speech of Calgacus, according to Publius Cornelius Tacitus, De vita et moribus Iulii Agricolae 30, 5

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Quote currently in EB
Hannibal knew how to gain a victory, but not how to use it
Maharbal

My suggestion:

Vincere scis, Hannibal, victoria uti nescis
You know how to win a victory, Hannibal, but not how to take advantage of it.

Marhabal, according to Titus Livius, ab urbe condita, book 22, 51

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Quote currently in EB
Molon Labe - Come and get them
The reply of Leonidas to Xerxes' demand to surrender his arms before the battle at Thermopylae

My suggestion:

Μολὼν λάβε
Come and get them - The reply of Leonidas.... (same as already in EB)

Leonidas, according to Lucius Mestrius Plutarchus (or Μέστριος Πλούταρχος), Apophthegmata Laconica, 225c.11

oudysseos

03-11-2009, 15:55

Well, we're off to a great start altogether. I've got 80 or so sourced and cited quotes, plus another 100 or so from EB1 that are good (but still need to be sourced). But don't stop: The more raw material we have, the more variety, and if we get enough great quotes, perhaps we can eliminate all the vanilla quotes (total conversion, eh?).

The Mauretanii...fight for the most part on horseback, with a javelin; and ride on the bareback of the horse, with bridles made of rushes. They have also swords. The foot soldiers present against the enemy, as shields, the skins of elephants. They wear the skins of lions, panthers, and bears, and sleep in them.
Strabo, Geography, XVII.iii.1-11

The Masaesylii and for the most part the Africans in general, wear the same dress and arms, and resemble one another in other respects; they ride horses which are small, but spirited and tractable, so as to be guided by a switch. They have collars made of cotton or of hair, from which hangs a leading-rein. Some follow, like dogs, without being led. They have a small shield of leather, and small lances with broad heads. Their tunics are loose, with wide borders; their cloak is a skin, as I have said before, which serves also as a breastplate.
Strabo, Geography, XVII.iii.1-11

The next-was a four-wheeled wagon fourteen cubits high and eight cubits wide; it was drawn by one hundred and eighty men. On it was an image of Dionysus---ten cubits high. He was pouring libations from a golden goblet, and had a purple tunic reaching to his feet. . .In front of him lay a Lacedaemonian goblet of gold, holding fifteen measures of wine, and a golden tripod, in which was a golden incense burner, and two golden bowls full of cassia and saffron; and a shade covered it round adorned with ivy and vine leaves, and all other kinds of greenery. To it were fastened chaplets and fillets, and ivy wands, drums, turbans, and actors' masks. After many other wagons came one twenty-five cubits long, and fifteen broad; and this was drawn by six hundred men. On this wagon was a sack, holding three thousand measures of wine, and consisting of leopards' skins sewn together. This sack allowed its liquor to escape, and it gradually flowed over the whole road.
Athanaeus, History, V.25 describes the procession of Ptolemy II Philadelphus in 285 BCE

The Ethiopian Megabarae have their clubs armed with iron knobs. They use spears and shields which are covered with raw hides. The other Ethiopians use bows and lances...they carried large shields made of raw hides, and hatchets for defensive weapons; some, however, had pikes, and others swords...the Ethiopians use bows of wood four cubits long, and hardened in the fire. The women also are armed, most of whom wear in the upper lip a copper ring.
Strabo, Geography, XVI.iv.4-17; XVII.i.53-54, ii.1-3, iii.1-11.

I am Cyrus, king of the universe, the great king, the powerful king, king of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad, king of the four quarters of the world, son of Cambyses, the great king,, king of the city of Anshan, grandson of Cyrus, the great king, ki[ng of the ci]ty of Anshan, descendant of Teispes, the great king, king of Anshan, the perpetual seed of kingship, whose reign Bel and Nabu love, and with whose kingship, to their joy, they concern themselves.
Cyrus Cylinder, Translation by Irving Finkel, Assistant Keeper, Department of the Middle East , British Museum

All kings who sit on thrones, from every quarter, from the Upper Sea to the Lower Sea, those who inhabit [remote distric]ts (and) the kings of the land of Amurru who live in tents, all of them, brought their weighty tribute into Shuanna, and kissed my[Cyrus] feet.
Cyrus Cylinder, Translation by Irving Finkel, Assistant Keeper, Department of the Middle East , British Museum

Demetrius, now twenty-two years old, [was sent]to make his first essay as sole commander in an important charge. He, whose youthful heat outran his experience, advancing against an adversary trained in Alexander's school, and practised in many encounters, incurred a great defeat near the town of Gaza, in which eight thousand of his men were taken and five thousand killed. His own tent, also his money, and all his private effects and furniture, were captured. These, however, Ptolemy sent back, together with his friends, accompanying them with the humane and courteous message, that they were not fighting for anything else but honour and dominion. Demetrius accepted the gift praying only to the gods not to leave him long in Ptolemy's debt, but to let him have an early chance of doing the like to him. He took his disaster, also, with the temper, not of a boy defeated in his attempt, but of an old and long-tried general familiar with reverse of fortune; he busied himself in collecting his men, replenishing his magazines, watching the allegiance of the cities, and drilling his new recruits.
Plutarch, Lives: Demetrius Poliorcetes

Megara, however, surrendered, and would have been pillaged by the soldiers, but for the urgent intercession of the Athenians. The garrison was driven out, and the city restored to independence. While he [Demetrius Poliorcetes] was occupied in this, he remembered that Stilpo, the philosopher, famous for his choice of a life of tranquillity, was residing here. He, therefore, sent for him, and begged to know whether anything belonging to him had been taken. "No," replied Stilpo, "I have not met with any one to take away knowledge." Pretty nearly all the servants in the city had been stolen away; and so, when Demetrius, renewing his courtesies to Stilpo, on taking leave of him, said, "I leave your city [Megara], Stilpo, a city of freemen." "Certainly," replied Stilpo, "there is not one serving man left among us all."
Plutarch, Lives: Demetrius Poliorcetes

For since in former times the Macedonian tactics proved themselves by experience capable of conquering those of Asia and Greece; while the Roman tactics sufficed to conquer the nations of Africa and all those of Western Europe; and since in our own day there have been numerous opportunities of comparing the men as well as their tactics, it will be, I think, a useful and worthy task to investigate their differences, and discover why it is that the Romans conquer and carry off the palm from their enemies in the operations of war: that we may not put it all down to Fortune, and congratulate them on their good luck.
Polybius, The Histories, Book XVIII, Chapters 28-32

Many considerations may easily convince us that, if only the phalanx has its proper formation and strength, nothing can resist it face to face or withstand its charge.
Polybius, The Histories, Book XVIII, Chapters 28-32

Of course, those generals who employ the phalanx must march over ground of every description, must pitch camps, occupy points of advantage, besiege, and be besieged, and meet with unexpected appearances of the enemy: for all these are part and parcel of war, and have an important and sometimes decisive influence on the ultimate victory. And in all these cases the Macedonian phalanx is difficult, and sometimes impossible, to handle, because the men cannot act either in squads or separately.
Polybius, The Histories, Book XVIII, Chapters 28-32

every Roman, once armed and on the field, is equally well-equipped for every place, time, or appearance of the enemy. He is, moreover, quite ready and needs to make no change, whether he is required to fight in the main body, or in a detachment, or in a single maniple, or even by himself. Therefore, as the individual members of the Roman force are so much more serviceable, their plans are also much more often attended by success than those of others.
Polybius, The Histories, Book XVIII, Chapters 28-32

Before all else I pray for your health and that you may always be well and prosperous, together with my sister and her daughter and my brother. I thank the Lord Serapis that when I was in danger at sea he straightway saved me. On arriving at Misenum, I received from Caesar three gold pieces for travelling expenses. And it is well with me.
Letter from Apion, a Roman recruit, to his father Epimachus [Select Papyri I (1932) #112 (2 A.D.)]

It was customary for the fetialis to carry in his hand a javelin pointed with steel, or burnt at the end and dipped in blood. This he took to the confines of the enemy's country, and in the presence of at least three persons of adult years, he spoke thus: Forasmuch as the state of the _____ has offended against the Roman People, the Quirites; and forasmuch as the Roman People the Quirites have ordered that there should be war with _____ and the Senate of the Roman People has duly voted that war should be made upon the enemy _____ : I, acting for the Roman People, declare and make actual war upon the enemy!
Livy, History of Rome, I.32[/I]

Ὦ ξεῖν’, ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε
κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.

O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde
keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.

Stranger, tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their orders.
Simonides, Epitaph for the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae

And if we're gonna have Spartan quotes, then it's only fair:

If to die well is the greatest part of valour,
fortune granted to this to us above all men.
For in our eagerness to clothe Greece in liberty,
we lie in unaging good repute.
Simonides, Epigram for the Athenians at Plataea (trans. Hammond)

The valour of these men shall beget glory for ever undiminished,
so long as the gods allot rewards for courage,
for on foot and on their swift-moving ships they kept
all Greece from seeing the dawn of slavery.
Simonides, Epigram for the Victory at Salamis (trans. Hammond)

As the struggle went on indecisively, the Athenian soldiers revealed the fear in their hearts by the swaying of their bodies; it was a time of agony for them, for escape or destruction seemed every moment just at hand.
Thucydides, the break-out attempt at Syracuse

I would very much rather stand three times in the front of battle than bear one child.
Medea, Euripides (trans. Goldhill)

Ibrahim

03-11-2009, 17:58

I do not have the origional arabic, but I figured this is of interest:

'"Animals engage in a struggle for existence; for resources, to avoid being eaten and to breed. Environmental factors influence organisms to develop new characteristics to ensure survival, thus transforming into new species. Animals that survive to breed can pass on their successful characteristics to offspring."

al-jahith, book of animals.

I attach this, as it summs up EB nicely: change, adapt, or be conquered:skull:

NIKOMAHOS

03-11-2009, 19:34

Glory lies not in never failing but in standing up each time you fall.

Maybe in the future i will loose a battle but never a minute. Napoleon.

Foolish claims that they learn with their experience. I'd rather advantage from others experience. Bismark.

Strategy: the practice orientation of all means available to a general in success of a specific target. Moltke.

Leadership is the art of putting someone you want to be done because he want's to do it. Dwight D. Eisenhower.

oudysseos

03-11-2009, 19:44

Um, Niko, we're really looking for material germane to the Hellenistic Era, not any quote from any general at any time. But thanks for having a go, maybe you could look through Herodotus or something?

penguinking

03-12-2009, 00:53

"Depositis autem operibus et machinamentis, quorum expleta iam pridem inventione nullam video ultra artium materiam."

A very rough translation: "Abandoning all considerations of works and engines of war, the invention of which has long since reached its limit, and the improvement of which I can see no further hope in the art."

-Frontinus, Strategemata, Book III, AD 90.

oudysseos

03-12-2009, 09:41

Penguinking, I like that one a lot: do you have a more complete citation?

Ibrahim, I'm eager to have some non-Graeco-Roman sources, but the quotes still have to fit into the general framework, i.e. relating to the period and people. If we take in quotes from a later time, they're still going to have to relate to the game somehow. Do you know of any early Arabic histories of the EB period? That kind of thing would be worth considering, or something like;

And surely I recollected you, even when the lances were drinking my blood,
and bright swords of Indian make were dripping with my blood.
The Poem of Antar

Otherwise we have to look in Herodotus and Strabo for possible quotes, i.e.;

Mariaba, the capital of the Sabaeans, is situated upon a mountain, well wooded. A king resides there, who determines absolutely all disputes and other matters; but he is forbidden to leave his palace, or if he does so, the rabble immediately assail him with stones, according to the direction of an oracle.
Strabo, Geography,XVI.iv.19

Augustus Caesar's...intention [was] either to conciliate or subdue the Arabians...He hoped to acquire either opulent friends, or to overcome opulent enemies.
Strabo, Geography, XVI.iv.22

The Nabataeans are prudent, and fond of accumulating property.
Strabo, Geography, XVI.iv.26

I'm surprised that no-one has put up Xenophon's most famous quote: I copied the whole passage as it's well worth reading (the quote will be shorter:laugh4:)

καὶ ἀφικνοῦνται ἐπὶ τὸ ὄρος τῇ πέμπτῃ ἡμέρᾳ: ὄνομα δὲ τῷ ὄρει ἦν Θήχης. ἐπεὶ δὲ οἱ πρῶτοι ἐγένοντο ἐπὶ τοῦ ὄρους καὶ κατεῖδον τὴν θάλατταν, κραυγὴ πολλὴ ἐγένετο. [22] ἀκούσας δὲ ὁ Ξενοφῶν καὶ οἱ ὀπισθοφύλακες ᾠήθησαν ἔμπροσθεν ἄλλους ἐπιτίθεσθαι πολεμίους: εἵποντο γὰρ ὄπισθεν ἐκ τῆς καιομένης χώρας, καὶ αὐτῶν οἱ ὀπισθοφύλακες ἀπέκτεινάν τέ τινας καὶ ἐζώγρησαν ἐνέδραν ποιησάμενοι, καὶ γέρρα ἔλαβον δασειῶν βοῶν ὠμοβόεια ἀμφὶ τὰ εἴκοσιν. [23] ἐπειδὴ δὲ βοὴ πλείων τε ἐγίγνετο καὶ ἐγγύτερον καὶ οἱ ἀεὶ ἐπιόντες ἔθεον δρόμῳ ἐπὶ τοὺς ἀεὶ βοῶντας καὶ πολλῷ μείζων ἐγίγνετο ἡ βοὴ ὅσῳ δὴ πλείους ἐγίγνοντο+, [24] ἐδόκει δὴ μεῖζόν τι εἶναι τῷ Ξενοφῶντι, καὶ ἀναβὰς ἐφ' ἵππον καὶ Λύκιον καὶ τοὺς ἱππέας ἀναλαβὼν παρεβοήθει: καὶ τάχα δὴ ἀκούουσι βοώντων τῶν στρατιωτῶν θάλαττα θάλαττα καὶ παρεγγυώντων. ἔνθα δὴ ἔθεον πάντες καὶ οἱ ὀπισθοφύλακες, καὶ τὰ ὑποζύγια ἠλαύνετο καὶ οἱ ἵπποι. [25] ἐπεὶ δὲ ἀφίκοντο πάντες ἐπὶ τὸ ἄκρον, ἐνταῦθα δὴ περιέβαλλον ἀλλήλους καὶ στρατηγοὺς καὶ λοχαγοὺς δακρύοντες. καὶ ἐξαπίνης ὅτου δὴ παρεγγυήσαντος οἱ στρατιῶται φέρουσι λίθους καὶ ποιοῦσι κολωνὸν μέγαν.

kai aphiknountai epi to oros têi pemptêi hêmerai: onoma de tôi orei ên Thêchês. epei de hoi prôtoi egenonto epi tou orous kai kateidon tên thalattan, kraugê pollê egeneto. [22] akousas de ho Xenophôn kai hoi opisthophulakes ôiêthêsan emprosthen allous epitithesthai polemious: heiponto gar opisthen ek tês kaiomenês chôras, kai autôn hoi opisthophulakes apekteinan te tinas kai ezôgrêsan enedran poiêsamenoi, kai gerra elabon daseiôn boôn ômoboeia amphi ta eikosin. [23] epeidê de boê pleiôn te egigneto kai enguteron kai hoi aei epiontes etheon dromôi epi tous aei boôntas kai pollôi meizôn egigneto hê boê hosôi dê pleious egignonto+, [24] edokei dê meizon ti einai tôi Xenophônti, kai anabas eph' hippon kai Lukion kai tous hippeas analabôn pareboêthei: kai tacha dê akouousi boôntôn tôn stratiôtôn thalatta thalatta kai parenguôntôn. entha dê etheon pantes kai hoi opisthophulakes, kai ta hupozugia êlauneto kai hoi hippoi. [25] epei de aphikonto pantes epi to akron, entautha dê perieballon allêlous kai stratêgous kai lochagous dakruontes. kai exapinês hotou dê parenguêsantos hoi stratiôtai pherousi lithous kai poiousi kolônon megan.

On the fifth day they did in fact reach the mountain; its name was Theches. Now as soon as the vanguard got to the top of the mountain, a great shout went up. [22] And when Xenophon and the rearguard heard it, they imagined that other enemies were attacking in front; for enemies were following behind them from the district that was in flames, and the rearguard had killed some of them and captured others by setting an ambush, and had also taken about twenty wicker shields covered with raw, shaggy ox-hides. [23] But as the shout kept getting louder and nearer, as the successive ranks that came up all began to run at full speed toward the ranks ahead that were one after another joining in the shout, and as the shout kept growing far louder as the number of men grew steadily greater, it became quite clear to Xenophon that here was something of unusual importance; [24] so he mounted a horse, took with him Lycius and the cavalry, and pushed ahead to lend aid; and in a moment they heard the soldiers shouting, “The Sea! The Sea!” and passing the word along. Then all the troops of the rearguard likewise broke into a run, and the pack animals began racing ahead and the horses. [25] And when all had reached the summit, then indeed they fell to embracing one another, and generals and captains as well, with tears in their eyes. And on a sudden, at the bidding of some one or other, the soldiers began to bring stones and to build a great cairn.

...They heard the soldiers shouting, "The Sea! The Sea!"...and when all had reached the summit, then indeed they fell to embracing one another, and generals and captains as well, with tears in their eyes.
Xenophon, Anabasis, 4.7.21-25

ταῦτα ἔδοξε, καὶ ἐποίουν ὀρθίους τοὺς λόχους. Ξενοφῶν δὲ ἀπιὼν ἐπὶ τὸ εὐώνυμον ἀπὸ τοῦ δεξιοῦ ἔλεγε τοῖς στρατιώταις: ἄνδρες, οὗτοί εἰσιν οὓς ὁρᾶτε μόνοι ἔτι ἡμῖν ἐμποδὼν τὸ μὴ ἤδη εἶναι ἔνθα πάλαι σπεύδομεν: τούτους, ἤν πως δυνώμεθα, καὶ ὠμοὺς δεῖ καταφαγεῖν.
tauta edoxe, kai epoioun orthious tous lochous. Xenophôn de apiôn epi to euônumon apo tou dexiou elege tois stratiôtais: andres, houtoi eisin hous horate monoi eti hêmin empodôn to mê êdê einai entha palai speudomen: toutous, ên pôs dunômetha, kai ômous dei kataphagein.
This plan was decided upon, and they proceeded to form the companies in column. And as Xenophon was going back from the right wing to the left, he said to the troops: “Soldiers, these men yonder whom you see are the only ones who still stand in the way of our being forthwith at the place we have long been striving to reach; if we possibly can, we must simply eat these fellows raw.”
Xenophon, Anabasis, 4.8.14

εἴς γε μὴν τὸ εὐπειθεῖς εἶναι τοὺς ἀρχομένους μέγα μὲν τὸ [καὶ] λόγῳ διδάσκειν ὅσα ἀγαθὰ ἔνι ἐν τῷ πειθαρχεῖν, μέγα δὲ καὶ τὸ ἔργῳ [κατὰ τὸν νόμον] πλεονεκτεῖν μὲν ποιεῖν τοὺς εὐτάκτους, μειονεκτεῖν δὲ ἐν πᾶσι τοὺς ἀτακτοῦντας.
To make the men who are under your command obedient, it is important to impress on them by word of mouth the many advantages of obedience to authority, and no less important to see that good discipline brings gain and insubordination loss in every respect.
Xenophon, The Cavalry Commander, 1.1.24

καὶ κατασκόπων δὲ πρὶν πόλεμον εἶναι δεῖ μεμεληκέναι
You must also have taken steps to enlist the services of spies before the outbreak of war.
Xenophon, The Cavalry Commander, 4.1.7

bobbin

03-12-2009, 12:44

ΔΕΞΑ (Dexa) - "Take that" or "Catch" an inscription found on a 4th century BC sling bullet from Athens in the British Museum, Upper floor, Room 69, Greece and Rome: Daily Life
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Sling_bullets_BM_GR1842.7-28.550_GR1851.5-7.11.jpg/800px-Sling_bullets_BM_GR1842.7-28.550_GR1851.5-7.11.jpg
Think "Take that" is the more accurate translation but "Catch" is more funnier:laugh4:
Also read as ΔΕΞΑΙ (Dexai) in Foss, Clive. "A Bullet of Tissaphernes." The Journal of Hellenic Studies, 95, 25-30. 1975.

oudysseos

03-12-2009, 13:14

An update on how we're doing:

ca. 25 new Latin quotes
ca. 60 new Greek quotes
ca. 25 new quotes from other sources
maybe 10 old quotes with new source citations (about 100 left to go...).

So any relavent non-Graeco-Roman quotes would be great great great! But post whatever you find if you thinks it's good.

Can anyone find a Greek text for Plutarch's Sayings of Kings and Commanders? Online or otherwise?

DeathFinger

03-12-2009, 13:26

http://remacle.org/bloodwolf/historiens/Plutarque/apopthtegmesgeneraux.htm

The translation is in french but you can use english translation here
http://www.attalus.org/old/sayings1.html

DeathFinger

03-12-2009, 14:15

One Bactrian quote, for once.

It's an extract of the poeme of Sophytôs' stele, found in Kandahar, and dated circa II century BC. The poem speaks about a called Sophytôs (who is not the maybe-king Sophytôs whom we have found some coins in this area), whose house was destroyed "by the Moires" (Μοιρων), and so he decided to use all the skills he has to accumulate a vast fortune to rebuild it.

This passage is interesting:

ως ἀρετην Εκατου Mουσεων τ'ησ(κ)ηκα σuν εσθλῄ
φuptηv σωφpoσuvηι, (t)ηµoς επεφpασαµηv
uψωσαιµι κε πως µεγαpov παtpoιov αuθις

"having cultivated the talent of the Archer and Muses
united with a noble wisdom, then I think
how to raise well above the house of my father again"

What's interesting is that whe have a native (his name is not greek) who appropriates greek gods and even maybe greek way of thinking because he speaks about Muses and Apollon ("the Archer"). What destroyed the hosue of his father is not develloped; "the Moires" is a way to tell about a stroke of fate imparable; maybe a war?

Especially, rare thing, it's a Bactrian source ^^

oudysseos

03-12-2009, 14:24

Deathfinger, well done indeed. And quickly too! Je vous remercie.

DeathFinger

03-12-2009, 14:31

De rien ^^

I've used this website to find greek quotes about Scythians kings so... ^^

Βελισάριος

03-12-2009, 16:23

ΔΕΞΑ (Dexa) - "Take that" or "Catch" an inscription found on a 4th century BC sling bullet from Athens in the British Museum, Upper floor, Room 69, Greece and Rome: Daily Life

Talk about finding the funny... that made my day! :laugh4:

I'd like to add some more Getai quotes, but I'm having trouble finding reliable sources.

NIKOMAHOS

03-12-2009, 17:36

Oudysseos sorry for not writting quotes from the hellenistic period.
It will be fixed ASASP. Now allow me to dedicate a few phrases to all EB companions.

If A=success then the equalization goes A=X+Y+Z. Wher X work, Y game and Z keeping your mouth closed...Albert Einstein

World is devited in two. People who does thigs and those who are payed for them(any resemblance between EB and RTW just occured) Dwight Morroe.

I make review by creating not finding mistakes. Michelangelo

Head without memory, place with out guard. Napoleon

Segui il tuo corso et lascia dir le genti. Strike your roαd and let the others saying. Dante Alighiery Holy comedy

Now back at work

Glory follows virtue like her shadow.Kikeron(I think Cicero in Latins)

Oh my soul do not seek eternal life but just purpose what you can achive. Pindar 3rd Pithionik-3
Ω ψυχή μου μη ζητάς αθάνατη ζωή, αλλ'επιδίωκε μονάχα οτι να κατορθωσεις μπορείς.

Our democracy is self-destructed because she abused the right of freedom and equality, because she teached citizens to account audacity as right, ilegality as freedom,cheekiness of speach as equality and anarchy as blessedness. ISOKRATIS

Η δημοκρατία μας αυτοκαταστρέφεται διοτι κατεχράσθη το δικαίωμα της ελευθερίας και της ισότητας, διοτι έμαθε τους πολίτες να θεωρούν την αυθάδεια ως δικαίωμα, την παρανομία ως ελευθερία, την ανάιδια λόγου ως ισότητα και την αναρχία ως ευδαιμονία(Ισοκράτης)

KERAVNOS PLEASE CHECK THIS TRANSLATION FROM GREEK TO ENGLISH IS IT RIGHT???

I will be back tomorrow.
keep on the great job companions.

Elmetiacos

03-12-2009, 17:53

But before he [Darius] came to the Danube, he first conquered the Getai, who believe in immortality: for the Thracians who occupy Salmydessos and are settled above the cities of Apollonia and Mesambria, the Kyrmianai and the Nipsaioi surrendered to Darius without fighting; but the Getai, the bravest and most upright in their dealings of all the people of Thrace, always obstinate, had to be subdued by force.
Herodotus Book 4 (Melpomene) 93
πρὶν δὲ ἀπικέσθαι ἐπὶ τὸν Ἴστρον, πρώτους αἱρέει Γέτας τοὺς ἀθανατίζοντας. οἱ μὲν γὰρ τὸν Σαλμυδησσὸν ἔχοντες Θρήικες καὶ ὑπὲρ Ἀπολλωνίης τε καὶ Μεσαμβρίης πόλιος οἰκημένοι, καλεύμενοι δὲ Κυρμιάναι καὶ Νιψαῖοι, ἀμαχητὶ σφέας αὐτοὺς παρέδοσαν Δαρείῳ· οἱ δὲ Γέται πρὸς ἀγνωμοσύνην τραπόμενοι αὐτίκα ἐδουλώθησαν, Θρηίκων ἐόντες ἀνδρηιότατοι καὶ δικαιότατοι.

I Am Herenow

03-12-2009, 17:54

ΔΕΞΑ (Dexa) - "Take that" or "Catch" an inscription found on a 4th century BC sling bullet from Athens in the British Museum

Nice! Also, here's a link (http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=399876&partid=1&searchText=bullet&fromDate=600&fromADBC=bc&toDate=100&toADBC=bc&numpages=10&orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database.aspx&currentPage=1) to the above.

I Am Herenow

Ibrahim

03-12-2009, 18:39

Histories in Arabic?

that will actually be difficult to get a hold of. I have some Tabari, jahith and Ibn Khaldun, but what I have are fragments, and many do not provide much on history (the one tabari fragment I have is the part he says he bears no resposibility for any wrong info; jahth is advocating black superiority (he was an African Arab-he had issues with most Arabs), and Ibn Khaldun is discussing 3asabiyya, and how history works on a business cycle model:shrug:

the Arabic Forums and searches do not help, as Arabs are on Average very careless about what they post on line; as the old saying goes, "kullun 3inda al-3arab saboon"*...It does not help that the great library I used to have was left behind in Kuwait..so many books, so much information lost ~:(

that said, I shall double my search for sources in Arabic. perhaps if I get lucky, I will get a graphic description of a sassanid or byzanrtine defeat, those are easiest to get a hold of these days (1:10,000 chance of obtaining genuine info on them)...more valuable pre islamic stuff will be even more lucky.

*everything to the Arabs is soap..

DeathFinger

03-13-2009, 22:09

About Yuezhei:

"(...)Later, the chanyu Laoshang of Xiongnu killed the Yuezhei's king, and he turned his head to drink a cup.(...)After their defeat against the Xiongnu, they went away, and crossing the [Da]yuan, at the West they attacked the Daxia and submitted it."
Sima Qian, Shiji, Chapter CXXIII, 3161-3162

About the original text....hm.... the extract is somewhere in this page (Chapter CXXIII, good luck xD)
http://www.google.com/gwt/n?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guoxue.com%2Fshibu%2F24shi%2Fshiji%2Fsj_123.htm

The chanyu is the king-like of the Xiongnu, and it seems that "Daxia" seems to be in fact Bactria and South-Sogdiana

There's juicy anecdotes about Xiongnu but they don't appear in EB, except if i'm wrong ^^

penguinking

03-14-2009, 05:31

Penguinking, I like that one a lot: do you have a more complete citation?

It's from book III of the Strategemata.

DionCaesar

03-15-2009, 17:21

Don't know if it is already in this thread (didn't plan to read it all):

Imperare sibi maximum imperium est
To rule yourself is the ultimate power
Epistulae morales ad Lucilium 113, 30

Cyclops

03-19-2009, 02:57

» Κῦρος δὲ ταῦτα ἀκούσας καὶ οὐ θωμάσας τὸν λόγον ἐκέλευε ποιέειν ταῦτα, οὕτω δὲ αὐτοῖσι παραίνεε κελεύων παρασκευάζεσθαι ὡς οὐκέτι ἄρξοντας ἀλλ᾽ ἀρξομένους· φιλέειν γὰρ ἐκ τῶν μαλακῶν χώρων μαλακοὺς γίνεσθαι· οὐ γὰρ τι τῆς αὐτῆς γῆς εἶναι καρπόν τε θωμαστὸν φύειν καὶ ἄνδρας ἀγαθοὺς τὰ πολέμια.

Cyrus, hearing this and not being surprised at the proposal, bade them do so if they would; but he exhorted them and bade them prepare in that case to be no longer rulers but subjects; "For," said he, "from lands which are not rugged men who are not rugged are apt to come forth, since it does not belong to the same land to bring forth fruits of the earth which are admirable and also men who are good in war."

Herodotus History Book 9 chapter 122 line 3.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hh/hh9120.htm

One of my favourite quotes from Herodotus but I can't tell where the bolded bit begins in the original Greek. Its alright to include Herodotus isn't it? he was widely read back in them days even if he belonged to an earlier age.

This regular use of quotes is an attractive feature, I recall similar (in fact many of the same) quotes on the event cards in that excellent boardgame "Successors".

desert

03-19-2009, 04:12

"His white head and grey beard breathing out his strong soul in the dust, holding in his dear hands his groin all bloody" - Tyrtaeus.

This appears to be the author's (http://books.google.com/books?id=K0LMLn_CA08C&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=holding+in+his+hands+his+groin+all+bloody+tyrtaeus&source=bl&ots=PT7n1cV3vJ&sig=hxP2VUl9AOP9-GZzCEp6vPT5SOo&hl=en&ei=ZLbBSeblD5WMtgeE84XfCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result) own translation, and the only reference is 10. 24-25, but I would love to see this quote in EB2. Even if you retranslate it. :yes:

oudysseos

03-19-2009, 11:42

Desert, I gots that one~;). If you like it, go to Perseus and read Lycurgus, 'Against Leocrates'. The whole poem is at line 107 or so. Lycurgus didn't write it: he's quoting the Spartan Tyrtaeus. It's worth looking up.

keravnos

03-19-2009, 23:36

Iskander 3.1

03-20-2009, 00:01

I'll look up some Persian quotes, I'll post later.

desert

03-20-2009, 00:04

So my post up there was unnecessary.:sweatdrop:

Oh well. I'l just put this version up anyway.

Guard the old.
For shame it is to see an elder fall,
Down in the forefront, smitten in the strife,
Before the youths, with grey beard, hair grown white,
To breathe out in the dust his valiant life,
Clasping his bloody groin with clinging hands,
（Fit sight indeed to kindle wrath and shame!）
His body bared.

Lycurgus, quoting Tyrtaeus in Against Leocrates, 107: 20-27

I'll leave it to you to extract the Greek equivalent: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0151%3Aspeech%3D1%3Asection%3D107#note-link3

ἐς τὰ ἐπὶ θάτερά τε τοῦ ποταμοῦ παραστάντες οἱ Συρακόσιοι（ἦν δὲ κρημνῶδες） ἔβαλλον ἄνωθεν τοὺς Ἀθηναίους, πίνοντάς τε τοὺς πολλοὺς ἀσμένους καὶ ἐν κοίλῳ ὄντι τῷ ποταμῷ ἐν σφίσιν αὐτοῖς ταρασσομένους. οἵ τε Πελοποννήσιοι ἐπικαταβάντες τοὺς ἐν τῷ ποταμῷ μάλιστα ἔσφαζον. καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ εὐθὺς διέφθαρτο, ἀλλ᾽ οὐδὲν ἧσσον ἐπίνετό τε ὁμοῦ τῷ πηλῷ ᾑματωμένον καὶ περιμάχητον ἦν τοῖς πολλοῖς.

The Syracusans stood upon the further bank of the river, which was steep, and hurled missiles from above on the Athenians, who were huddled together in the deep bed of the stream and for the most part were drinking greedily. The Peloponnesians came down the bank and slaughtered them, falling chiefly upon those who were in the river. Whereupon the water at once became foul, but was drunk all the same, although muddy and dyed with blood, and the crowd fought for it.

Thuycidides, The History of the Peloponnesian War Book VII, Chapter 84, Lines 4-5

Iskander 3.1

03-20-2009, 19:19

The accuracies of the following can be argued:

"Tell me, who are the Spartans?"
--Cyrus the Great, according to Herodotus (kind of a premonition)

And my favorite (note that the exact wording varies, depending on the source):
"O man, whoever you are and wherever you come from, for I know that you will come–I am Cyrus, who founded the Empire of the Persians and was king of the East. Do not begrudge me this spot of earth which covers my body.”
I think this it Plutarch's version of the inscription. It's been weathered away over the centuries so we can't verify what it actually said (or if it even said anything).

Cyrus

03-24-2009, 18:31

Segui il tuo corso et lascia dir le genti. Strike your roαd and let the others saying. Dante Alighiery Holy comedy

That's not really a good translation, what that actually means is Continue on your path(keep on going) and let others do the talking. It's kinda hard to translate 'cause it's 11th century italian.
But i have an old italian proverb my grandfather told me:"Non rimuovere il confine antico fissato dai tuoi padri". In english: "Do not remove the anchent border placed by your fathers". It looses something in the translation......
Great job everyone!:2thumbsup:

Ibrahim

03-25-2009, 03:36

That's not really a good translation, what that actually means is Continue on your path(keep on going) and let others do the talking. It's kinda hard to translate 'cause it's 14th century italian.
:

much better.

anyways, I finally found another poem, this one is much earlier than 550AD:

سلام في الصحيفة من لقيط إلى من بالجزيرة من إياد/بأن الليث كسرى قد أتاكم فلا يشغلكم سوق النقاد /أتاكم منهم ستون ألفاً يزجّون الكتائب كالجَراد /على حنق أتينكم فهذا أوان هلاككم كهلاك عاد

"peace in the scroll, from laqeet to whoever is at the jazeera from iyad/ that the lion, kisra (the persian shah), has come to you so do not be occupied by the money market/ he comes to you sixty thousand throwing** the battalions like the locusts/ on spite he comes to you, for this is the time for you to die the death of 3ad"

laqeet ibn ya3mur al-iyadiy, warning his tribe of an attack, c.380AD*.

I went here: http://adab.com/modules.php?name=Sh3er&doWhat=lstsh&catid=17&r=&start=30

where I got all the other poems.

**can be rendered "mustering". the languahe here is euphemistic.

Fabio Scevola

03-25-2009, 17:30

I found a quote in an EB1 thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=115053) , in a post from Africanvs (#4), so the credit should be for him, but I liked it very much:
" If you wish to command everyone, does it really follow that everyone should accept your slavery?" By Caratacus.

It also sound familiar, maybe it is n EB quote actually but anyway I hope it can make it, in the final selection.

bobbin

03-26-2009, 02:59

Its already in, just worded slightly differently.
"If Rome wishes to rule the world, does it follow that all others wish to be slaves?"
King Caratacus, as quoted by Tacitus

Prussian to the Iron

03-26-2009, 15:51

This could be one:

Neither Philip II nor his son Alexander the Great even attempted to conquer Sparta: it was too weak to be a major threat that needed to be eliminated, but Spartan martial skill was still such that any invasion would have risked potentially high losses. Even during her decline, Sparta never forgot its claims on being the "defender of Hellenism" and its Laconic wit. An anecdote has it that when Philip II sent a message to Sparta saying "If I enter Laconia, I will level Sparta to the ground," the Spartans responded with the single, terse reply: "If."

/Bean\

03-26-2009, 19:09

I'd forgotten about that quote...wasn't it in Vanilla?

Prussian to the Iron

03-26-2009, 19:17

i dont think so. of course i havent played vanilla since probably...oh.....2006?

Βελισάριος

03-26-2009, 20:29

Wasn't it "Yes" that they replied?
I'll have to check that when I have time, I'm not 100% sure.

Prussian to the Iron

03-26-2009, 20:48

what? they wouldn't reply yes.......

Cyrus

03-26-2009, 23:05

No they replyed: "If".

Prussian to the Iron

03-26-2009, 23:39

thats what im saying

oudysseos

03-27-2009, 09:11

Hmmm. The point of this thread is accurate citation: I happen to know the source for that quote. Does anyone else?

Well I guess not:

Philip wrote at the time when he entered their [Sparta's] country, asking whether they wished that he should come as a friend or as a foe; and they made answer, "Neither."

Plutarch, Apophthegmata Laconica

Here's another good one:

When Philip of Macedon sent some orders to the Spartans by letter, they wrote in reply, "What you wrote about? No."

Plutarch, Apophthegmata Laconica

/Bean\

03-28-2009, 00:08

Those two are much more likely, but the original is much more heroic/classically romantic, don't you think? :beam:

Prussian to the Iron

03-28-2009, 00:49

Here's another good one:

When Philip of Macedon sent some orders to the Spartans by letter, they wrote in reply, "What you wrote about? No."
Plutarch, Apophthegmata Laconica

wait......what did he write about? i dont get it..................:help:

/Bean\

03-28-2009, 01:55

Its a different version of your quote. He talks of the same thing. It's not really that confusing...

Prussian to the Iron

03-28-2009, 02:46

my head hurets. i need an advil.....

Βελισάριος

03-28-2009, 15:00

Hmmm. The point of this thread is accurate citation: I happen to know the source for that quote. Does anyone else?

Well I guess not:

Philip wrote at the time when he entered their [Sparta's] country, asking whether they wished that he should come as a friend or as a foe; and they made answer, "Neither."

Plutarch, Apophthegmata Laconica

Ah, there you go.
I'm fairly certain about the other quote, with their reply to his threats, but there is the possibility that some of the meaning may have been lost in translation.

I don't remember the above quote, but I like it!

desert

03-30-2009, 00:25

Men are basically smart or dumb and lazy or ambitious. The dumb and ambitious ones are dangerous and I get rid of them. The dumb and lazy ones I give mundane duties. The smart ambitious ones I put on my staff. The smart and lazy ones I make my commanders.

- Erwin Rommel

http://www.memorablequotations.com/rommel.htm

It's way out of our timeline, but it actually describes the Sharp, Pessimistic, Selfish, etc. traits pretty well.

oudysseos

03-30-2009, 09:09

Heh- that's a good one, Desert. Can't use it of course.

John117 - Did you take your advil? 'Cos the issue is really very simple: my goal is to confirm the original sources of our quotes, mate, not to throw in spurious "quotes" just because the sound cool. Your 'Spartans answering if' (which you cut-and-pasted from Wikipedia) is probably a paraphrase or mistranslation (by Norman Davies, I believe) of the Plutarch quote that I posted above: it's like "Play it again Sam", something that everybody thought was said but actually never really was. But if you can find the Greek text that's another story.

No original text (or accurate reference to same) = not in game.

Oh by the way, I have found the likely sources for the controversial Celtic quotes (although I have not tracked down the quotes themselves yet), and I have even found reference to the infamous 'Cycle of Don'. But the issue of Celtic quotations hasn't changed: there is no literature contemporary to our period: the earliest Irish manuscripts are 12th century, though they contain texts said to be copied from the 6th century on, these are still a good 700 years too late for us. I will put up some examples of the earliest Old Irish poetry but we probably won't use it.

I have a usable collection of quotes for EB2, although I will be happy to add to it if someone finds something really good. I have included many/most of the legitimate suggestions from this thread, as well as some surprises from our internal quotes thread. However, since it'll be a long wait, I am putting the finishing touches on a new quotes.txt for EB1. Coming soon!

P.S. John117? The latin in your joke is still wrong. 'Mihi martinum da'

Prussian to the Iron

03-30-2009, 15:04

oh thanks. ill change it immediately (even though i aced latin :P)

oudysseos

03-30-2009, 16:49

If you say so. Now how 'bout the bouncing boobs? Funny for about 12 seconds but gettin' old, chief.

Here's an example of old Irish poetry:

Lie na Rig i Femun,
Caithir Ronain i mBregun,
cian o ros-siachtar sina;
a lleicne nit senchrina.

The King's stone in Femen,
Ronan's Fort in Bregon;
Storms have long since reached them,
but their cheeks are not old and withered.

The Nun of Beare, PRIA LV, C, 83-109, trans. O'Connor

Borg Ailline uallach
at-bath lia shlog mbagach.

The proud settlement of Aillin has died with its boasting hosts.

Felire Oengusso, 23-27, trans. O'Connor

Gair a ilaig iar cach mbuaid
im chuail claideb, comtaig drend;
brig a fian fri indna gorm,
gloim a corn for cetaib cend.

The shout of its triumph after each victory round a tangle of swords,
a fiery encounter; the strength of its mercenary bands against the great battle array,
the shriek of its horns over hundreds of heads.

Book of Leinster (DIAS) 7148-251, trans. O'Connor

Beautiful stuff! But I probably won't put it in.

Prussian to the Iron

03-30-2009, 16:50

how about ancient hebrew texts? like about military and stuff.

oudysseos

03-30-2009, 17:19

Sure! Lay it on me! Especially if it's from the wider TaNaKh and not just what Christians call the Bible. Or Talmud/Mishnah, although it'll have to be reasonable germane to the period. But yeah, bring it on. Just be conscientious about the citation, please.

P.S. Not quite there on the Latin yet: the 2nd declension accusative plural ending is -os, not -i. For the joke to work you'll have to put it into the vocative. How, I don't know. Caesar is talking to his martine? (the plural vocative of martinus is martini). Or how about, Caesar: "This martinus is good". Bartender: "Don't you mean martini"? Caesar: "I haven't had that much to drink yet!"

Prussian to the Iron

03-30-2009, 17:25

i think mostly everybody gets what im saying, thats all that matters.

anyway, i didnt mean to say i had any, but i could definitely find some (i think battles bc is on tonight)

oh, how about what hasdrubal said to hannibal after cannae:

"Hannibal, you know how to gain a victory, but not how to use it."

and i sincerely hope "alea iacta est" is in there.

oudysseos

03-30-2009, 17:34

Yep, both those are in there. You might want to actually read the entire first post.

Prussian to the Iron

03-30-2009, 18:21

i didnt have time. i think the firs time i read it it was lie 11pm. you dont have patience to read al that at 11pm.

oudysseos

03-30-2009, 19:12

Hmmm. I don't know about you, but to avoid looking like I don't know what I'm talking about I usually read a thread before I post on it. Maybe that's just me.

Still looking for good EB quotes, people!

brt

03-30-2009, 19:16

"It is pleasant, when the sea is high and the winds are dashing the waves about, to watch from the shores the struggles of another"
Lucretius

Suave, mari magno turbantibus aequora ventis
e terra magnum alterius spectare laborem;

Lucretius, de rerum natura 2.1-2, translation as it is now seems fine to me, perhaps "sweet" instead of "pleasant"?

Btw, the Punic from Plautus, wouldnt that be mock Punic, more designed to make the audience laugh than to actually resemble the language?

oudysseos

03-30-2009, 19:21

No- the Punic from Plautus is generally held to be some of the largest surviving samples of Punic and is a major component of reconstruction. Look on Perseus: Plautus, Poenulus, act V. Long speech in Punic, for which I believe Plautus also provided a translation into Latin. Very important text.

Oh and thanks for the Lucretiut quote: the old EB quote has the source wrong. Good work.

Cyrus

03-30-2009, 19:34

Heh- that's a good one, Desert. Can't use it of course.
What exactly is stopping you? The fact that it's out of the timeframe?

Mediolanicus

03-30-2009, 19:48

P.S. Not quite there on the Latin yet: the 2nd declension accusative plural ending is -os, not -i. For the joke to work you'll have to put it into the vocative. How, I don't know. Caesar is talking to his martine? (the plural vocative of martinus is martini). Or how about, Caesar: "This martinus is good". Bartender: "Don't you mean martini"? Caesar: "I haven't had that much to drink yet!"

Meh, oudysseos, you're right but a joke is a joke. I think it's fairly good one on top of that. I think it should stay the way it is.

on topic: I saw a great book today. I can't recall the author but the book was called "History in Quotes". I immediately thought of you. It's 600 or 700 pages of historical and recent quotes about history itself or historical events with their reference and some additional information.

It was only €16,95. But I'm afraid even that's a bit too much for a book I won't actually read (no, I'm not going to read 700 pages of quotes and references...)

Gah, I'm doubting to buy it.

machinor

03-30-2009, 22:59

How about this one on the foundation of the Pontic Kingdom:

καὶ ὁ ̓Αντίγονος ἐνύπνιον ἔδοξε πεδίον σπει̂ραι χρυσίῳ, καὶ τὸ χρυσίον ἐκθερίσαντα τὸν Μιθριδάτην ἐς τὸν Πόντον οἴχεσθαι. καὶ ὁ μὲν αὐτὸν ἐπὶ τῳ̂δε συλλαβὼν ἐβούλετο ἀποκτει̂ναι, ὁ δ' ἐξέφυγε σὺν ἱππευ̂σιν ἕξ, [καὶ φραξάμενός τι χωρίον τη̂ς Καππαδοκίας, πολλω̂ν οἱ προσιόντων ἐν τῃ̂δε τῃ̂ Μακεδόνων ἀσχολίᾳ,] Καππαδοκίας τε αὐτη̂ς καὶ τω̂ν ὁμόρων περὶ τὸν Πόντον ἐθνω̂ν κατέσχεν

Antigonos [Monophthalmos] had a dream that he had sowed a field with gold, and that Mithridates reaped it and carried it off to Pontus. He accordingly arrested him, intending to put him to death, but Mithridates escaped with six horsemen, [fortified himself in a stronghold of Cappadocia, where many joined him in consequence of the decay of the Macedonian power,] and possessed himself of the whole of Cappadocia and of the neighboring countries along the Euxine.

Appian, The Mithridatic Wars, II.9 (That part in brackets may be omitted)

The Pontic scythed chariots hit the Bithynian lines:

καὶ τοι̂ς Βιθυνοι̂ς τὰ δρεπανηφόρα ἅρματα ἐμπίπτοντα μετὰ ῥύμης διέκοπτε καὶ διέτεμνε τοὺς μὲν ἀθρόως ἐς δύο τοὺς δ' ἐς μέρη πολλά. τό τε γιγνόμενον ἐξέπληττε τὴν στρατιὰν του̂ Νικομήδους, ὅτε ἴδοιεν ἡμιτόμους ἄνδρας ἔτι ἔμπνους, ἢ ἐς πολλὰ διερριμμένους, ἢ τω̂ν δρεπάνων ἀπηρτημένους.

At the same time the scythe-bearing chariots made a charge on the Bithynians, cutting some of them in two, and tearing others to pieces. The army of Nicomedes was terrified at seeing men cut in halves and still breathing, or mangled in fragments and their parts hanging on the scythes.

Appian, The Mithridatic Wars, III.18

Talk about psychological warfare and traumatized soldiers...

/Bean\

03-30-2009, 23:54

Ooh I like them...nice stuff Machinor :2thumbsup:

machinor

03-31-2009, 00:29

Thanks. ~:) Appian's telling of the Mithridatic Wars is actually quite a good read. I just found another good one. At the battle of Orchomenus the Roman soldiers are frightened by the superior Pontic cavalry and are about to rout. Sulla's reaction:

... ἐξήλατο του̂ ἵππου, καὶ σημει̂ον ἁρπάσας ἀνὰ τὸ μεταίχμιον ἔθει μετὰ τω̂ν ὑπασπιστω̂ν, κεκραγώς: "εἴ τις ὑμω̂ν, ὠ̂ ̔Ρωμαι̂οι, πύθοιτο, που̂ Σύλλαν τὸν στρατηγὸν ὑμω̂ν αὐτω̂ν προυδώκατε, λέγειν, ἐν ̓Ορχομενῳ̂ μαχόμενον."

[Sulla] leaped from his horse, seized a standard, ran out between the two armies with his shield-bearers, exclaiming, "If you are ever asked, Romans, where you abandoned Sulla, your general, say that it was at the battle of Orchomenus."

Appian, The Mithridatic Wars, VII.46

One might also only quote the part Sulla shouts, but I think the whole thing about him jumping off his horse and running in between the two armies with a standard is quite cool too. Also note: the Greek text uses the term "hypaspiston" (also "shield-bearers" in this translation) for his bodyguards.

oudysseos

03-31-2009, 07:15

Machinor, those are excellent! And Mediolanicus- you're right, I shouldn't have picked on John. John? Sorry.

/Bean\

03-31-2009, 07:32

Now I want that book :laugh4:

machinor

03-31-2009, 12:03

You can read it online on Perseus Project. But I warn you, it's one hell of a blood dripping story. After reading it, I was quite surprised there were any people left living in Asia Minor.
Plutarch's account of the life of Quintus Sertorius is quite good too, but unfortunatly I can't find the original anywhere on the web. ~:(

machinor

03-31-2009, 15:13

The following two quotes are also from The Mithridatic Wars (they're the last ones from the Mithridatic Wars, I promise :beam:) and are both fairly interesting:

... τοὺς ̔́Ελληνας, οἳ ἐμισθοφόρουν αὐτῳ̂, πάντας ἐξώπλισεν ὑποπτεύων: οἳ σύλληψιν δεδιότες, ἀθρόοι σκυτάλας ἔχοντες ἐβάδιζόν τε καὶ ηὐλίζοντο. Μαγκαίου δὲ τοὺς βαρβάρους ἐπάγοντος αὐτοι̂ς ὡπλισμένους, διαδησάμενοι τὰ ἱμάτια ται̂ς λαιαι̂ς ἀντὶ ἀσπίδων, μετὰ τόλμης ἐσέδραμον ἐς αὐτούς: καὶ ὅσους ἀνέλοιεν, εὐθὺς ἐμερίζοντο τὰ ὅπλα.
[Mankaios, one of Mithridates' generals] disarmed all of his Greek mercenaries because he suspected them. They, in fear of arrest, walked abroad or rested only in a body, and with clubs in their hands. Mankaios set upon them with his armed barbarians. They wound their clothing around their left arms, to serve as shields, and fought their assailants courageously, killed some, and shared their arms with each other.
Appian, The Mithridatic Wars, XII.86

πολλαὶ δὲ ἔν τε τοι̂ς ὁμήροις καὶ τοι̂ς αἰχμαλώτοις ηὑρέθησαν γυναι̂κες, οὐ μείονα τω̂ν ἀνδρω̂ν τραύματα ἔχουσαι: καὶ ἐδόκουν ̓Αμαζόνες εἰ̂ναι, εἴτε τι ἔθνος ἐστὶν αὐτοι̂ς γειτονευ̂ον αἱ ̓Αμαζόνες, ἐπίκλητοι τότε ἐς συμμαχίαν γενόμεναι, εἴτε τινὰς πολεμικὰς ὅλως γυναι̂κας οἱ τῃ̂δε βάρβαροι καλου̂σιν ̓Αμαζόνας.
Among the hostages and prisoners many women were found, who had suffered wounds no less than the men. These were supposed to be Amazons, but whether the Amazons are a neighboring nation, who were called to their aid at that time, or whether certain warlike women are called Amazons by the barbarians there, is not known.
Appian, The Mithridatic Wars, XV.103

Another interesting quote, this time a bit different version of Hannibal's crossing of the Alps:

χιονος τε πολλη̂ς οὔσης καὶ κρύους, τὴν μὲν ὕλην τέμνων τε καὶ κατακαίων, τὴν δὲ τέφραν σβεννὺς ὕδατι καὶ ὄξει, καὶ τὴν πέτραν ἐκ του̂δε ψαφαρὰν γιγνομένην σφύραις σιδηραι̂ς θραύων, καὶ ὁδὸν ποιω̂ν ἣ καὶ νυ̂ν ἐστιν ἐπὶ τω̂ν ὀρω̂ν ἐντριβὴς καὶ καλει̂ται δίοδος ̓Αννίβου.
The snow and ice being heaped high in front, he cut down and burned wood, quenched the ashes with water and vinegar, and thus rendering the rocks brittle he shattered them with iron hammers and opened a passage which is still in use over the mountains and is called Hannibal's pass.
Appian The Hannibalic War, I.4

And this one's also quite funny:

ὁ δέ, ὡς ἐν βαρβάροις τε καὶ τεθηπόσιν αὐτόν, καὶ δι' ἄμφω δυναμένοις ἀπατα̂σθαι, τὴν ἐσθη̂τα καὶ τὴν κόμην ἐνήλασσε συνεχω̂ς ἐσκευασμέναις ἐπινοίαις: καὶ αὐτὸν οἱ Κελτοὶ περιιόντα τὰ ἔθνη πρεσβύτην ὁρω̂ντες, εἰ̂τα νέον, εἰ̂τα μεσαιπόλιον, καὶ συνεχω̂ς ἕτερον ἐξ ἑτέρου, θαυμάζοντες ἐδόκουν θειοτέρας φύσεως λαχει̂ν.
In order to increase the admiration of those barbarians, who were easily deceived, [Hannibal] frequently changed his clothes and his hair, using carefully prepared devices each time. When the Gauls saw him moving among their people now an old man, then a young man, and again a middle-aged man, and continually changing from one to the other, they were astonished and thought that he partook of the divine nature.
Appian, The Hannibalic War, II.6

Prussian to the Iron

03-31-2009, 15:45

damn. reading those i would never join an ancient army. i have some sort of feeling that i want it to be exagerated,but im just not sure.....i think i gotta go puke now.......

machinor

03-31-2009, 15:52

Well, wars are always bloody and gory. Don't be fooled on that by today's sexy and seemingly clean intelligent bombs. War is a bloody mess and I wouldn't want to be in the middle of one in any period.

Prussian to the Iron

03-31-2009, 15:54

well i know war has always been bad but i thought the worst was WWI or 2. i mean, machine guns tearing mn to pieces and tanks smashing people are bad enough, but scythes slicing oyu in half while you crawl around still concious? thats horrible....

A Very Super Market

03-31-2009, 16:16

WWI was worse :/

But this is not the place for that

machinor

03-31-2009, 17:20

I love ancient stories about omens. Here's one:

contractis ad Bononiam triumvirorum copiis aquila tentorio eius supersedens duos corvos hinc et inde infestantis afflixit et ad terram dedit, notante omni exercitu futuram quandoque inter collegas discordiam talem qualis secuta est, atque exitum praesagiente.
When the troops of the [second] Triumviri were collected about Bolognia, an eagle, which sat upon [Augustus'] tent, and was attacked by two crows, beat them both, and struck them to the ground, in the view of the whole army; who thence inferred that discord would arise between the three colleagues, which would be attended with the like event: and it accordingly happened.
Sueton, The Lives of the Ceasars: Augustus, 96.1

oudysseos

03-31-2009, 17:21

At least in WWI they had the beginnings of modern medicine; some pain relief, some ways to combat infection. Try the American Civil War: got shot in a limb? Off it comes ricky-tick, no anaesthetic. Or the Crimean War: more allied troops died of dysentery than wounds. How would you like to poo yourself to death?

Hey John117 (or anyone else who aced Latin):

Finitio ultima est Caelum. Cursi sunt navissidereui "Inceptus", quinque anno legatio sua, terras novas et peregrinas explorare, inauditam vitam ignotas civilizationesque quaerere, ubi nemo iam adfuit audacter ire.

machinor

03-31-2009, 17:58

Titus Livius on Marcus Manlius Capitolinus who after having defended the Capitol against the Gauls tried to overthrow the republic and was sentenced to death:

Hunc exitum habuit vir, nisi in libera civitate natus esset, memorabilis.
Such was the end of a man who, had he not been born in a free State, would have attained distinction.
Titus Livius, Ab urbe condita, book VI, chapter 20, line 14

Prussian to the Iron

03-31-2009, 18:28

Neighboring avenging is Sky. Hastily are [not sure] " beginning ", five yearly produce office of legate her , new earth and wanderer scout [not sure] life unknown civilization to seek , when no one now [not sure] audaciter to go.

i aced latin, but in my online school it only goes by half-units. so i really only did half a course of latin.

machinor

03-31-2009, 18:47

Let's see:

Finitio ultima est Caelum. Cursus est navis sidere vi "Inceptus", quinque anno legatio sua, terras novas et peregrinas explorare, inauditam vitam ignotas civilisationesque quaerere, ubi nemo iam adfuit audacter ire.
The final frontier is Heaven. The star-powered-ship "Enterprise", in the fifth year of its mission, set off to explore new and foreign earths, to search unheard lifes and unknown civilisations, to boldly go where nobody has ever visited.

The beginning of the second phrase gave me quite a headache. I got it only at the last subordinate clause. I corrected the misstakes. ~;)

@John-117: Judging from your feeble online-translator-attempts you didn't even half a lesson of Latin.

Prussian to the Iron

03-31-2009, 18:56

lol you noticed that :)

yah, i took a half course and got the credit, but i didntreally learn much. im taking russian next.

oudysseos

03-31-2009, 20:33

/Bean\

03-31-2009, 20:34

Isn't it 'continuing mission'?

oudysseos

03-31-2009, 20:35

That shows you how much older I am...

/Bean\

03-31-2009, 20:36

Ah, your a Shatner guy, eh?

Mediolanicus

03-31-2009, 20:45

Now I want that book :laugh4:

My book?
Seriously intrested?

I'm going to take a look at it again tomorrow. The moment it goes under €10 I buy it.
It's a shop that sells second hand books or books that don't get sold, so the price should drop after a while.

machinor

03-31-2009, 20:57

@oudysseos: Oh, I see. Well if it's supposed to mean "these are the voyages of the spaceship Enterprise" then you should have written "... Incepti".

samba_liten

04-01-2009, 14:14

Come, rouse thee for battle, such a one as of old thou declaredst thyself to be.
Agamemnon
in

Homer, Iliad, Book 4, Line 264

I don't read Greek, so i wont venture to guess what this would look like in the Greek version.

machinor

04-01-2009, 14:22

Well, you could just look up that specific line in the Greek text. ~;)
It's this one:

ἀλλ' ὄρσευ πόλεμον δ' οἱ̂ος πάρος εὔχεαι εἰ̂ναι.

Ibrahim

04-01-2009, 17:03

Jeepers.

"Space, the final frontier. These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise, her five year mission; to explore strange new worlds, seek out new life and new civilizations. To boldly go where no man has gone before!"

Coming soon.:mickey:

yes...I must agree...that..this mission....is the key, to a..better underrrstanding..of the Universe.

so..why won't I..be reimburesed for my..torn shirts?!:clown:

keravnos

04-04-2009, 21:03

Mediolanicus

04-05-2009, 20:12

I've got that book I was talking about as a birthday present today.
950 pages of historical quotes. I'm sure there'll be something useful in there. The only drawback is that the original quote in the original language isn't there.

Prussian to the Iron

04-05-2009, 21:07

fortes fortuna adiuvat

Ibrahim

04-05-2009, 22:09

fortes fortuna adiuvat

you should cite the source, not just shoot a random quote.

luckily for you, I know where this came from: Terence, in Phormio, 2nd century BC (it was quoted by Virgil and I think Ovid, but I don't rememberthe latter for sure).

Tellos Athenaios

04-06-2009, 00:09

"Fortune favours the bold/brave", as seen in Vanilla RTW?

Ibrahim

04-06-2009, 00:52

"Fortune favours the bold/brave", as seen in Vanilla RTW?

yes.

Mediolanicus

04-06-2009, 08:41

I've got some quotes on history in general, I don't know if they are useful but I thought I'd share.
I'll be looking for quotes about the EB period after this.

« My work is not a piece of writing designed to meet the taste of an immediate public, but was done to last for ever. »
Θουκυδίδης – Thucydides (ca.431 - ca.404 BC) The History of the Peloponnesian War I.22

« Equidem beatos puto, quibus deorum munere datum est aut facere scribenda aut scribere legenda, beatissimos vero quibus utrumque. »
The fortunate man, in my opinion, is he to whom the gods have granted the power either to do something which is worth recording or to write what is worth reading; and most fortunate of all is the man who can do both.
Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus – Pliny the Younger (ca.61-113) Epistulae VI.16
- in a letter to Tacitus.

« Sine ira et studio. »
Without anger or bias.
Publius Cornelius Tacitus[1] (ca.56-120), Annales 1.1
- Tacitus’ personal standard for the writing of history.
[1] "Publius" seems to be the consensus. One of his manuscripts is signed with Publius.
On the other hand, Sidonius Apollinaris (431-489) called him "Gaius", but as you can see, they didn't know each other intimately.

« Dwell on the past and you’ll lose an eye. Forget the past and you’ll lose both. »
- Old Russian proverb.

« Anybody can make history. Only a great man can write it. »
Oscar Wilde The Critic as Artist (1891) Part I

« The very ink in which all history is written is mere fluid prejudice. »
Mark Twain Following the Equator (1897)

« History: gossip well told. »
Elbert Hubbard The Roycroft Dictionary (1914)

« Who has fully realized that history is not contained in thick books but lives in our very blood? »
Carl Gustav Jung Woman in Europe (1927)

« The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there. »
L.P. Hartley The Go-Between (1953) Prologue

I realized that 1 year of Greek 8 years ago isn't enough the find the Greek version of the Theucidides-quote. I don't where the line starts or stops in his The History of the Peloponnesian War...

Maion Maroneios

04-08-2009, 12:30

I know a quote of Paulus Aemilius, the victor of the battle of Pydna:
"Μηδεν εωρακεναι φoβερωτερον και δεινοτερον φαλλαγγος μακεδονικης..."
"Meden eorakenai phoberoteron kai deinoteron phalangos Makedonikes..."
"Never before have I seen anything more fearsome and terrible than the Macedonian phalanx..."

A little treat for Roman-haters and Makedonian-fans :clown:

Maion

Belisarius II

04-11-2009, 19:31

You could use the two quotes I have on my Sig.

"Rident stlidi verba Latina." "Fools laugh at the Latin language." - Ovid

"Possunt quia posse videntur." "They can because they think they can." - Virgil

These are more short Roman proverbs:

"Salus populi suprema lex." "The safety of the people is the highest law." - Cicero

"Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementiae fuit." "There has not been any great talent without an element of madness." - Seneca

"Dis aliter visum." "It seemed otherwise to the Gods." - Virgil

"Absens heres non erit." "The absent person will not be an heir." - Unknown

"A cane non magno saepe tenetur aper." "A bour is often held by a not large dog." - Ovid

"Perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim." "Be patient and tough; some day this pain will be useful to you." - Ovid

"Mendacem oportet esse memorem." "A liar must be good at remembering." - Quintilian

"Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." "it is foolish to fear that which you can not avoid." - Publilius Syrus

"Per varios usus artem experientia fecit." "By different kinds of practice experience has brought skill." - Manilius

"Qui non proficit, deficit." "The one who does not advance falls behind." - Unknown

"Ipsa scientia potestas est." "Knowlegde itself is power." - Bacon

"Dente lupus, cornu taurus petit." "The wolf attacks with his fang, the bull with his horn." - Horace

"Credula vitam spes fovet et melius cras fore semper dicit." "Credulous hope supports our life and always says that tomorrow will be better." - Tibullus

"Canis timidus vehementius latrat quam mordet." "A timid dog barks more violentlt than it bites." - Curtius Rufus

I hope these can be at any all useful. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/smilies/gc/gc-yes.gif

/Bean\

04-11-2009, 19:47

They will be useful if you can produce the sources that these quotes came from. Good stuff though. :2thumbsup:

Belisarius II

04-11-2009, 20:03

First Year Latin By Charles Jenny Jr., Eric C. Baade, and Thomas K. Burgess.
Publisher: Prentice-Hall Inc., Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey and Needham Heights, Massachusetts.
Year Published: 1990

Is this enough information? I can find out more if more information is needed.

Mediolanicus

04-11-2009, 20:32

The original sources would be more useful.

You know, like "Cicero, in Catalinam I,1" or something like that...

/Bean\

04-11-2009, 20:38

See the first page of this thread for the sort of details the EB II team is looking for.

Smeel

04-15-2009, 12:55

oudysseos, would there be any chance of including quotes from the norse Legendary sagas, the Fornaldarsagas? They where written during the 13th century(like those celtic quotes you wrote about), and some of them are about very ancient episodes, like the germanic wars against the Huns, and the such. I've already read some of them, and they certainly have their share of blood, guts, magic swords, elves, dwarves, and fair maidens :2thumbsup:

If they aren't 100% out of the question, I could try digging up some. the original language would be old norse/old icelandic.

from the Hervararsaga

"Maðr þóttumst ek
mennskr til þessa,
áðr ek sali yðra
sækja hafðak;
seldu mér ór haugi
þann, er hatar brynjur,
hlífum hættan
Hjálmars bana."

“I did think I was mortal,
among the living,
till down I came
to your dead men's hall;
hand me from your howe, then,
what hates armour,
the hazard of shields
Hjalmar's bane.”

Hervor demanding the magic sword Tyrfing from her dead father, Angantyr
Hervararsaga, cap 5.

I Don't understand old norse, so please don't shoot me if the translation is wrong:dizzy2:

oudysseos

04-15-2009, 23:31

Thanks for the continuing interest, peeps!

Smeel, at the moment I haven't put in the later Irish quotes or the Hildebrandslied etc. But if you have some really good Germanic/Scandinavian quotes, then lay it on me and we'll have a look. The problem is of course that there's no way of knowing how far back the Sagas (for example) go, even in an 'Oral Tradition', and so whether they'd be at all germane to EB.

Having said that, all of our pre-literate factions are going to be unrepresented if we stay hard-core on this (and we have lots of Greek and Latin), so maybee... we'll see. It'll be a judgement call at the end of the day: a quote that is obviously wrong (i.e. mentions Leif Eriksson or something) would be off-putting and break the immersive feel that we want.

See if you can find anything that sounds like it might be from the Sweboz and that general area, without sounding too...Viking. Hwaet!

Smeel

04-16-2009, 13:38

Yeah Okay! Since I'm actually enjoing reading the stuff (not hard to understand where Tolkien got most of his ideas:idea2:).

I understand taht they are a real stretch from the antique world. But at least, the one I'm reading now, the Heravar saga, seems to have very old oral tales in it. according to wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hervarar_saga
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hervarar_saga)

The matter on the Gothic wars with the Huns is of considerable age, and is based on events from the early or mid-4th century that were transmitted for almost 1000 years.

It is a testimony to its great age that names appear in genuinely Germanic forms and not in any form remotely influenced by Latin. Names for Goths appear that stopped being used after 390, such as Grýting (Ostrogoth, cf. the Latin form Greutungi) and Tyrfing (Visigoth, cf. the Latin form Tervingi). The events take place where the Goths lived during the wars with the Huns. The Gothic capital Arheimar is located on the Dniepr (...á Danparstöðum á þeim bæ, er Árheimar heita...), King Heidrek dies in the Carpathians (...und Harvaða fjöllum) and the Battle with the Huns takes place on the plains of the Danube (...á vígvöll á Dúnheiði í Dylgjudölum). The mythical Mirkwood which separates the Goths from the Huns, appears to correspond to Maeotian marshes.

Then of course, about the actual told events we have no idea how remotely true they are.
I will continue reading now:book::book::book:

Just skimmed through this one:

Ek hefi barizt hundrað sinnum, ok hefi ek haft stundum meira lið, en stundum minna, ok hefi ek jafnan sigr haft, ok eigi skal þat spyrjast, at ek flýja né friðar biðja.
A hundred fights have I fought and whiles I had more, and whiles I had less, and yet even had I the victory, nor shall it ever be heard tell of me that I fled away or prayed for peace."
The words of King Völsung of Hunaland. the Volsungasaga, kap 5.

About Hunaland:

In Old Norse sources, Hunaland often has a mythological character and can shift between different parts of Europe, depending on what kind of skills the hero is to show. It is separated from other countries by the forest Mirkwood, but one source may locate it up in the north at Bjarmaland, another source says that it borders on Reidgotaland, a third source places it in parts of Germany and other sources place it on either side of the Gulf of Bothnia down to Gästrikland, in Sweden.

Second edit: Reidgotaland is the name of the Gothic lands in eastern europe. It's so confusing with the geats, gothlanders and Goths. There is supposedly might some ties with the frankish kingdom, since the latin name for Franks are Hugones, and the anglo-saxon name is Hūgaz:dizzy2:

oudysseos

04-20-2009, 15:18

Smeel (are you Mr. Smeel on TWC?), that's pretty good. If we do end up using anachronistic material, then it'll get in.

Here are a couple Irish ones, just to have on the record.

Ór ós gréin gelmair gabais for doíne domnaib sceo dee dia oín as Móen mac Áine oínrí
Gold more shining than the bright sun, there seized the lands of humans and of gods the one god who is Moín, son of Áine, the one king.
Móen óen ó ba nóed, Celtica 10

Mál ad-rualaid íathu marb
macc soír Sétne
selaig sratha Fomaire
fo doíne domnaib
A prince who went to the land of the dead, the noble son of Sétne, struck the meadow-lands of the Fomoire beneath the worlds of men.
Mál ad-rúalaid íathu marb, O'Brien, Corpus genealogiarum Hiberniae, 20

Now, if anyone can supply some quotes from Sabaean epigraphy, we'd really be getting somewhere.

Smeel

04-21-2009, 17:15

ah, yes, I'm famous:juggle2: just kidding, here are some quotes from the 15th chapter of the Hervara saga. on The Battle of Dun Leath.

At öðrum degi hófu þeir sína orrostu ok börðust allan þann dag ok fóru at kveldi í herbúðir sínar. Þeir börðust svá átta daga, at höfðingjar váru enn heilir, en engi vissi manntal, hvat margt fell. En bæði dag ok nótt dreif lið til Angantýs af öllum vegum, ok þá kom svá, at hann hafði eigi færa fólk en í fyrstu.
The next day they began their battle and fought all that day and went at evening to their camps. They fought thus for eight days, with the leaders unharmed, but none knew the number of those who fell. But day and night more troops thronged to Angantyr’s camp from all directions, so that he had no less men than he had at the start.

The last battle between King Angantyr of the Goths, and prince Hlod of the Huns. The Hervarar saga, chpt 15:The Battle of Dun Heath

"Bauð ek þér, bróðir,
basmir óskerðar,
fé ok fjölð meiðma,
sem þik fremst tíddi;
nú hefir þú hvárki
hildar at gjöldum
ljósa bauga
né land ekki."

“I offered you, brother,
every treasure,
money and many riches,
what you wished the most;
but now for war
you’ve no reward,
no lustrous rings
nor land either.”

Angantyr, standing over the slain body of Hlod, Hervarar saga chpt 15.

directly after the last quote, this:
"Bölvat er okkr, bróðir,
bani em ek þinn orðinn,
þat mun æ uppi,
illr er dómr norna."

“Cursed are we, brother,
your killer I’ve become,
it will never be forgotten—
grim is the doom of norns.”

Angantyr, standing over the slain body of Hlod, Hervarar saga chpt 15.

found this in germania:

Cum ventum in aciem, turpe principi virtute vinci, turpe comitatui virtutem principis non adaequare
In the field of battle, it is disgraceful for the chief to be surpassed in valor; it is disgraceful for the companions not to equal their chief
About the Germanic people, Tacitus, De Origine et situ Germanorum .14

Alsatia

04-22-2009, 16:05

"For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?"
- Matthew 16:26

"The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his."
- George Patton

Just wondering, how are you going to put in those ridiculously large quotes seen before?

/Bean\

04-22-2009, 17:18

@Alsatia: Nice quotes, but the team is really looking for quotes from the EB timeframe, 272BC-14AD. See if you can find any of these.

Alsatia

04-23-2009, 00:10

Sorry. I see your point there. How about these, not sure about the first.

"Let no man be called happy before his death. Till then, he is not happy, only lucky."
- Solon

(Latin cannot be found for below)

"Death is not natural for a state as it is for a human being, for whom death is not only necessary, but frequently even desirable."
- Marcus Tullius Cicero

"To have command is to have all the power you will ever need. To have all the power you will ever need, is to have the world in the palm of you hand."
- Tiberus

Tanit

04-23-2009, 03:13

"We accept it!"
Response of the Carthaginian Council to the Roman declaration of war.
Polybius, Book III, Ch. 33, p. 77

Alsatia

04-23-2009, 03:29

Really? Or was that another quote?

"Famous men have the whole earth as their memorial."
- Pericles

“Ability without honor is useless.”
- Cicero

Mediolanicus

04-23-2009, 11:38

Alsatia, could you cite your sources for those quotes?

Just "Cicero" and stuff like that, is a bit meagre, isn't it?

/Bean\

04-23-2009, 19:39

Thats exactly (partly) what this quotes project is about; finding the original sources. Check out the first page of this thread to see what the team is looking for Alsatia. You got the right idea for quotes though.

machinor

04-23-2009, 19:55

"We accept it!"
Response of the Carthaginian Council to the Roman declaration of war.
Polybius, Book III, Ch. 33, p. 77
This one is awesome! :beam: That's got be in EB(II).

samba_liten

04-24-2009, 10:15

they disguised and equipped the most physically suitable of their women to make
them look as much as possible like men, giving them jugs and similar bronze
utensils in place of shields and helmets, and promenading them on the side of the
wall where they were in fullest view of the enemy.
(Aeneas Tacticus 40.4, trans. Whitehead 1990, quoted in The Cambridge History of Greek and Roman Warfare)

Again, no original language here. My apologies. I do not know where to find the original for this one.

oudysseos

04-24-2009, 13:40

Alright people, I have redone the quotes for EB1!! You can now savour a tasty new quotes experience without having to wait for EBII to come out.

Please note that this is a WIP: I have replaced 30 or so of the quotes from EB1 based purely on my own subjective whim. I have not completed the revision of all the remaining quotes (this is largely done for EBII). At some point I may do so for EB1 as well.

Also note that the new quotes you'll find here are not all the same as the ones we have in EBII. There will still be some surprises coming! Most of the new ones are from this thread: thanks to all who have contributed.

Here (http://files.filefront.com/quotestxt/;13650084;/fileinfo.html) is the new quotes.txt file. Just drop this into your data/text file in EB1.

MAKE SURE TO BACK UP THE ORIGINAL QUOTES FILE FIRST. I HAVE NOT PLAYTESTED THIS FILE.

If there are any problems with this let me know and I'll fix it.

I will put this link in the first post of this thread and also on the EB1 forum.

Enjoy.

machinor

04-25-2009, 16:01

Nice!

Alsatia

04-26-2009, 06:45

Got sources for some of the aforementioned quotes.

"Male parta, male dilabuntur."
"What is dishonorably got, is dishonorably squandered."
- Cicero, Philippicoe II 27

No translation found

"Death is not natural for a state as it is for a human being, for whom death is not only necessary, but frequently even desirable."
- Cicero, Des Republica III 34

Not sure about below

"Famous men have the whole earth as their memorial."
- Pericles, Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War

Alsatia

04-27-2009, 13:36

I'm too late then.

oudysseos

04-27-2009, 14:09

No, Alsatia, not at all! For one thing there is no limit to the number of quotes: if you come up with a really good one I'll add it in. For another this is all work in progress: I'll do an update at some point. And the EB1 quotes is just a by-product: the real point of all this was to improve the sourcing for the EB2 quotes. I have made some good progress here but it's not finished by a long shot: my goal is to have more new quotes than repeats from EB1. So your contributions are still very much appreciated.

Alsatia

04-27-2009, 15:10

Ok. I'm relieved. Here's a few

In summo periculo timor miericordiam non recipit
"In extreme danger fear feels no pity"
- Gaius Julius Caesar, De Bello Gallico, VII, 26

Libenter homines id quod volunt credunt
"Men gladly believe what they wish"
- Gaius Julius Caesar, De Bello Gallico, III, 18

"Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it"
- Pericles, Not found

lordbuxton

04-28-2009, 20:53

At the end of the game the king and the pawn go in to the same box.

Italian proverb

Zarax

05-07-2009, 17:56

Need to find the source but this is a pretty good one imho:

"The rupture was then inevitable; and the Roman generals did not wait till
the orders of the senate and people arrived; which was what Mithridates had
desired. The design he had long formed of declaring war against the Romans
had occasioned his having made many alliances, and engaged many nations in his
interests. Twenty-two languages, of as many different people, were reckoned
among his troops; all which Mithridates himself spoke with facility."

greatly abridged discourse, which Justin repeats at
length, as it stood in Trogus Pompeius, of whom he is only the epitomizer.

DaciaJC

05-12-2009, 02:42

"Trajan engaged the war with hardened soldiers, who despised the Parthians, our enemy, and who didn't care of their arrow blows, after the terrible wounds inflicted by the curved swords of the Dacians."

- Fronto, Principia Historiae, II

I'm sorry, I'm still looking for the original Latin.

Saldunz

05-12-2009, 06:07

So, just so that you know, there are some problems with a lot of the new quotes in the EB1 loading screens. Some of them are so long that their beginnings and ends are off-screen. The other problem that may be more on my end (I don't know how to verify or correct this) is that a lot of the Greek doesn't show properly. The polytonic vowels get dropped.

oudysseos

05-12-2009, 10:11

OK, I'll have a look: the Greek miniscule works fine on the M2TW platform, and the length is ok as well. As I said, I had not tried this file on RTW.

One solution is for you to go into your quotes.txt file and edit the longer quotes. I'll do so but it will take me a while to post something as I am very busy in RL at the moment.

Anyone else having this problem? Could screen size/resolution have an impact?

Saldunz

05-16-2009, 05:51

I don't think it's a resolution problem, I have a widescreen monitor. It still goes off the screen!

Although now that I think about it, the problem *may* be on my end. A lot of the Sweboz trait names don't show properly for me in-game. I suspect it's because some accented vowels are just shown as question marks. When I first noticed this, I thought it was because RTW was incapable of reading the accented vowels of the Sweboz trait names and the Greek quotes... But does/did anyone else have a similar problem? Or is the font-recognition problem on my end? If so, what do I do to fix it?

Tellos Athenaios

05-16-2009, 07:32

Smeel

05-16-2009, 12:38

A Haidz runo runu, falh'k hedra ginnarunaz. Argiu hermalausz, ... weladauþe, saz þat brytz.
Uþarba spa.
"The secrets of mighty runes I've hidden here, powerful runes. The one who breaks this memorial will be eternally tormented by anger. Treacherous death shall see him.
I foresee destruction."
Inscripted curse on the Björketorp runestone, ca 500-700 AD.

Written in the elder futhark, and in Proto-Norse. It isn't that far from Proto-germanic, could be something? :juggle2:

Alsatia

05-16-2009, 13:56

Saldunz

05-16-2009, 18:42

RTW is quite capable of reading the lower 1K or so characters of the Basic Multilingual Plane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Multilingual_Plane); and RTW enforces fonts which support rendering of characters in the BMP more than sufficiently for the current EB descriptions.

Instead, chances are that you mucked up your descriptions by saving them using something else from UTF-16 encoding (for instance ASCII, which supports only 256 characters total and lacks the support for characters used in Sweboz trait descriptions etc.).

Thanks for the tip! I'm using AlexEB and it's exactly as you said. The export_VnVs.txt which AlexEB provides mucked the accented vowels. So I switched it with the old one that EB proper provides - should solve the problem. I guess I'll make a note of it on the AlexEB thread.

So I guess font problems on my end aren't the cause of the problem for the Greek quotes. I looked at the quotes.txt. Notepad can't recognize the accented vowels, but as soon as I paste the quotes into word the vowels are rendered.

Mediolanicus

05-16-2009, 20:59

I believe that is too far ahead of the EB timeframe.

"The noblest spirit is most strongly attracted by the love of glory"
- Marcus Tullus Cicero

And the Classic, which surprisingly nobody posted...

"Lovely and honorable it is to die for one's country."
- Horace, The Odes

Nice, but could you please give the original Latin quote if possible and of course the source.
That is what this thread is about after all (see first page).

Alsatia

05-17-2009, 11:17

I know. I've been looking:book: and I found latin and the source for one of the above.

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
Lovely and honorable it is to die for one's country.
- Horace, The Odes, Book III, Ode II, XIII

Smeel

05-17-2009, 13:25

Alsatia, oudysseos has already stated that including from 200 AD+ might be considered becouse of the lack of quotes from other languages that Latin and Greek :book:

Ranja
"Router"
written on the Dahmsdorf lance, 3th-4th century(?)

oudysseos

05-17-2009, 13:40

Yes, and I like that last one, Smeel. Good stuff. Since I now have well over 200 quotes for EB2, I will provisionally include some later material, like Smeel's proto-norse, and some Irish triads: the thought being that with 200 contemporary, mostly Greek or Latin quotes, 2 or 3 others won't be unduly anachronistic. One of the problems with the older unsourced Celtic quotes was that there were lots and lots of them, giving an unbalanced impression during play.

Alsatia, that last post of yours is what we're looking for: correctly sourced (that quote was actually already in the old file, but with no citation). Thanks.

Smeel, do you have any more info on the Dahmsdorf lance?

Smeel

05-17-2009, 15:10

Nothingmore than that it is gothic, and written in the elder futhark runes, therefore probably made before or during the christianization of the goths. Found in Dahmsdorf. I first saw it on this wiki-page [Link] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_runic_inscriptions), but I haven't found much more about it. I google-translated a german page, and it seemed like the Blade has been lost. There are pictures that claims to be the blade.

http://www.lesfilsdodin.com/images/dahmsdorf2.jpg
http://www.arild-hauge.com/arild-hauge/eu-rune-dahmdorf.jpg

Alsatia

05-18-2009, 08:01

Here's anther two I've found

a sententia dicenda amovebo, ad ulciscendi tempora reservabo.
I will put aside while delivering my opinion, and reserve for a more fitting opportunity of revenge.
- Marcus Tullus Cicero, On the Consular Provinces (I)

nunquam deos ipsos admouere nocentibus manus; satis esse, si occasione ulciscendi laesos arment
The gods never lay hands themselves on the guilty; it is enough when they arm the injured with the opportunity for vengeance.
- Livy, The History of Rome (V,XI)

oudysseos

05-18-2009, 09:20

Things are really coming along. Here's an update on the older quotes foe which we still need more accurate citations:

{Author_101} Lucius Annaeus Seneca
{Quote_101} Iniqua nunquam regna perpetuo manent - Stern masters do not reign long.

{Author_102} Aeschylus
{Quote_102} In war, truth is the first casualty

{Author_106} Homer
{Quote_106} The blade itself incites to violence.

{Author_107} Albius Tibullus
{Quote_107} Who was the first that forged the deadly blade? Of rugged steel his savage soul was made.

{Author_108} Hannibal Barca at the age of 9, ca. 238 BC
{Quote_108} I swear so soon as age will permit I will use fire and steel to arrest the destiny of Rome.

{Author_111} Publius Ovidius Naso
{Quote_111} The gods favour the bold.

{Author_112} G. Cornelius Tacitus
{Quote_112} Great empires are not maintained by timidity.

{Author_114} Dionysius of Halicarnassus
{Quote_114} Only the brave enjoy noble and glorious deaths.

{Author_120} Lucius Annaeus Seneca
{Quote_120} Non mortem timemus, sed cogitationem mortis We do not fear death, but the thought of death.

{Author_121} Euripides
{Quote_121} Danger gleams like sunshine to a brave man's eyes.

{Author_122} Lucius Annaeus Seneca
{Quote_122} Constant exposure to dangers will breed contempt for them.

{Author_127} Marcus Tullius Cicero
{Quote_127} Nihil tam munitum quod non expugnari pecunia possit - Nothing is so well fortified that money cannot capture it.

{Author_128} Polybius, The Histories, describing the Battle of Telamon
{Quote_128} The Romans were terrified by the fine order of the Celtic host, and the dreadful din [of] the whole army were shouting their war cries. Terrifying too were the naked warriors in front, all in the prime of life and finely built men...

{Author_129} Polybius, The Histories, after writing about the betrayal of Epeiros by Gallic mercenaries
{Quote_129} I thought it necessary to speak at some length on this subject in order to show how foolish the Epirots were, and that no people, if wise, should ever admit a garrison stronger than their own forces, especially if composed of barbarians.

{Author_131} Tacitus, Annals of Imperial Rome
{Quote_131} Barbarians: Greek Historians ignore them, reserving their admiration for Greece only. We Romans too, have underestimated them, since in our devotion to antiquity we neglect modern history

{Author_132} Thucydides
{Quote_132} Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage.

{Author_134} Thucydides, quoting the Athenian envoy to the neutral Melians, explaining why they should submit without fighting
{Quote_134} Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must.

{Author_135} Marcus Tullius Cicero
{Quote_135} The sinews of war are infinite money.

{Author_137} G. Cornelius Tacitus
{Quote_137} The proper arts of a general are judgement and prudence.

{Author_138} Hannibal, asked by Antiochus if his richly ornamented army was enough to defeat the Romans at Magnesia, ca. 189BC
{Quote_138} Indeed they will be more than enough, even though the Romans are the greediest nation on earth!

{Author_141} Athenogoras of Syracuse
{Quote_141} If a man does not strike first, he will be the first struck.

{Author_144} Polybius, The Histories, On the Mercenaries War
{Quote_144} This war had lasted for three years and four months, and it far excelled all wars we know of in cruelty and defiance of principle.

{Author_148} Terence
{Quote_148} Auribus teneō lupum - I am holding the wolf by his ears.

{Author_28} Thucydides
{Quote_28} A collision at sea can ruin your entire day.

{Author_30} Homer
{Quote_30} The outcome of the war is in our hands; the outcome of words is in the council.

{Author_31} Euripides
{Quote_31} Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.

{Author_32} Homer
{Quote_32} Ye gods, what dastards would our host command? Swept to the war, the lumber of the land.

{Author_40} Cn. Pompeius Magnus: Plutarch's Life of Pompey
{Quote_40} Stop quoting law. We carry Swords.

{Author_41} Menander
{Quote_41} The man who runs away will fight again.

{Author_43} Thucydides: The Corcryaen speech to the Athenians
{Quote_43} It is the one with the least regrets over concessions to the enemy who will continue in the greatest security.

{Author_44} Thucydides: Perikles' Funeral Oration
{Quote_44} Even for those who were worse in other ways it is right that first place be given to valor against enemies.

{Author_45} Lucius Annaeus Seneca
{Quote_45} In war there is no prize for runner-up.

{Author_46} Lucius Annaeus Seneca
{Quote_46} In war, when a commander becomes so bereft of reason and perspective that he fails to understand the dependence of arms on Divine guidance, he no longer deserves victory.

{Author_51} Hieronymus of Cardia
{Quote_51} The Celts rushed on their enemy with the fury of a wild beast. Hacked with swords and axes, and pierced with missles, their rage died only with life itself. Some even plucked out the weapons that struck them and hurled them back at the Greeks.

{Author_57} Polybius
{Quote_57} A good general not only sees the way to victory, he also knows when victory is impossible.

{Author_58} Polybius
{Quote_58} In war we must always leave room for strokes of fortune, and accidents that cannot be foreseen.

{Author_59} Publilius Syrus
{Quote_59} Pardon one offence and you encourage the commission of many.

{Author_6} Publilius Syrus
{Quote_6} We should provide in peace what we need in war.

{Author_62} Lucius Annaeus Seneca
{Quote_62} Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentis telum est A sword is never a killer, it's a tool in the killer's hands.

{Author_64} Publilius Syrus
{Quote_64} He is best secure from dangers who is on his guard even when he seems safe.

{Author_66} Silius Italicus
{Quote_66} In war we must be speedy.

{Author_67} Socrates
{Quote_67} A disorderly mob is no more an army than a heap of building materials is a house.

{Author_68} Sophacles
{Quote_68} Quick decisions are unsafe decisions.

{Author_69} Publius Statius
{Quote_69} The cruelty of war makes for peace.

{Author_7} G. Cornelius Tacitus
{Quote_7} Great empires are not maintained by timidity.

{Author_71} G. Cornelius Tacitus
{Quote_71} Even the bravest are frightened by sudden terrors.

{Author_73} G. Cornelius Tacitus
{Quote_73} A bad peace is even worse than war.

{Author_74} G. Cornelius Tacitus
{Quote_74} The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

{Author_75} Thucydides
{Quote_75} War is not so much a matter of weapons as of money.

{Author_76} Publius Flavius Vegetius
{Quote_76} An ambush, if discovered and promptly surrounded, will repay the intended mischief with interest.

{Author_77} Hannibal Barca, addressing Phormio's lecture on leadership
{Quote_77} I have seen during my life many an old fool; but this one beats them all.

{Author_78} Publius Flavius Vegetius
{Quote_78} Few men are born brave; many become so through training and force of discipline.

{Author_79} Publius Flavius Vegetius
{Quote_79} A general is not easily overcome who can form a true judgement of his own and the enemy's forces.

{Author_82} Xenophon
{Quote_82} When one side goes against the enemy with the gods' gift of stronger morale, then their adversaries, as a rule, cannot withstand them.

{Author_87} Aeschylus
{Quote_87} ...now in place of the young men urns and ashes are carried home to houses of the fighters.

{Author_88} Demosthenes
{Quote_88} Beware lest in your anxiety to avoid war you obtain a master.

{Author_9} Gaius Julius Caesar
{Quote_9} In war important events result from trivial causes.

{Author_97} Euripides
{Quote_97} Courage may be taught as a child is taught to speak.

{Author_98} Publius Flavius Vegetius
{Quote_98} Valour is superior to numbers.

{Author_99} G. Cornelius Tacitus
{Quote_99} Valour is the contempt of death and pain.

Of course, the authenticity of most of these is not in question, but we still want to provide accurate citations if we can, and even the most well-known quotes can surprise you in the original.

machinor

05-18-2009, 10:17

I recall that some of them have already been provided with correct citation. I put the correct citation for the Plato quote and the Homer one about men and lions somewhere in this thread (I looked it up, it's actually on page 1 ~;)).

oudysseos

05-18-2009, 12:19

Oops. Sorry, I missed those. Will get them in.

EDIT: Yes I see you did cite several quotes. I've got them now.

Scud

05-18-2009, 16:19

I know you have asked for quotes from around EB time-frame, but in the current list for 1.2 there are quotes from "Timon of Athens" and "Julius Caesar", so would any more Shakespearean quotes be accepted (of course, from relevant plays)?

oudysseos

05-18-2009, 16:37

No, I have taken the Shakespeare, Sun Tzu and Confucius out. There's more than enough good, topical and contemporary sources: we have barely touched Greek drama (only a few quotes from Euripides), and there are the Hellenistic poets as well, which no-one has gotten to yet. And there's lots more in Polybius, and no-one has even touched Vergil yet (unbelievable!) My goal is at least 300 quotes, roughly 200 of which will be new for EB2.

Urbs antiqua fuit, Tyrii tenuere coloni, Karthago, Italiam contra Tiberinaque longe ostia , dives opum studiisque asperrima belli;

There was an ancient city, held by Tyre as a colony; Carthage, opposite from afar to Italy and the Tiber, it's door; rich, ruthless and eager in war.

P. Vergilius Maro, Aeneid, 1.12

Alsatia

05-18-2009, 23:12

Someone please check the latin, original latin has no reference to the lines.

expediam et primae revocabo exordia pugnae
These are my theme, and how the war began, And how concluded by the godlike man
- Vergillius Maro, Publius Vergilius Maro, The Aeneid (VII , XL)

Scud

05-18-2009, 23:24

No, I have taken the Shakespeare, Sun Tzu and Confucius out. There's more than enough good, topical and contemporary sources: we have barely touched Greek drama (only a few quotes from Euripides), and there are the Hellenistic poets as well, which no-one has gotten to yet. And there's lots more in Polybius, and no-one has even touched Vergil yet (unbelievable!) My goal is at least 300 quotes, roughly 200 of which will be new for EB2.

'Tis a shame, my knowledge of The Bard's 'Antony and Cleopatra' shall go to waste. I think I better get cracking on that Classical and Hellenistic literature then! :laugh4:

oudysseos

05-20-2009, 10:28

I have updated the first post with a list of the old quotes that still need to be cited.

I'd also like to encourage anyone who is interested to look into;

Ennius (there's more):

Fortune favours the bold.
Fortibus est fortuna viris data.
Annals, Book 7

On the tradtions and heros of ancient times stands firm the Roman state
Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque
"Annals", Book 18

This is an exercise for the class:

De bello Hannibalico

...postquam Discordia taetra
Belli ferratos postes portasque refregit.
Pellitur e medio sapientia, vi geritur res,
Spernitur orator bonus, horridus miles amatur.
Haut doctis dictis certantes sed maledictis
Miscent inter sese inimicitiam a~itantes.
Non ex iure manu consertum sed magis ferro
Rem repetunt, regnumque petunt, vadunt solida vi.

Virgil (the translations on Perseus are pretty old: I'd like something more contemporary)

Audacibus annue coeptis
Look with favor upon a bold beginning.
Virgil, Georgics, Book I, line 40

Equo ne credite, Teucri. quidquid id est, timeo Danaos et dona ferentis.
Do not trust the horse, Trojans. Whatever it is, I fear the Grecians, even bearing gifts.
Virgil, Aeneid, Book II, line 48

Audentes fortuna iuvat
Fortune favours the brave.
Virgil, Aeneid, Book X, line 284

Theocritus
Callimachus
Apollonius if Rhodes
Arrian ( particularly Indica )
Appian
Dionysius of Halicarnassus

Here's some Menander:

Whom the gods love dies young.
The Double Deceiver, fragment 125

The man who runs may fight again.
Monostikoi (Single Lines)

At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool.
Those Offered for Sale, fragment 421

We live, not as we wish to, but as we can.
Lady of Andros, fragment 50

There's still lots left in Cicero, Livy, Polybius, Herodotus, and Thucydides:

Inter arma enim silent leges
Law stands mute in the midst of arms.
Cicero, Pro Milone

A war is never undertaken by the ideal State, except in defense of its honor or its safety.
Cicero, De Re Publica, Book 3, Chapter 23

The Scythians take cannabis seed, creep in under the felts, and throw it on the red-hot stones. It smolders and sends up such billows of steam-smoke that no Greek vapor bath can surpass it. The Scythians howl with joy in these vapor-baths, which serve them instead of bathing, for they never wash their bodies with water.
Herodotus, Book 4, Ch. 74

Circumstances rule men; men do not rule circumstances.
Herodotus,Book 7, Ch. 49

Potius sero quam numquam.
Better late than never.
Livy, IV. 23

There is always more spirit in attack than in defense.
Livy, XXVIII. 44

When one is deprived of ones liberty, one is right in blaming not so much the man who puts the shackles on as the one who had the power to prevent him, but did not use it.
Thucydides, Book I, 69

It is from the greatest dangers that the greatest glory is to be won.
Thucydides, Book I, 144

The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.
Thucydides,Book II, 40

But MORE THAN ANYTHING I'd like someone to find good translations of the Drakht-i Asurig and Ayadgar-i Zareran, and indeed anything that's topical and not Latin or Greek!

samba_liten

05-20-2009, 13:46

[...]
{Author_134} Thucydides, quoting the Athenian envoy to the neutral Melians, explaining why they should submit without fighting
{Quote_134} Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must. [...]

Of course, the authenticity of most of these is not in question, but we still want to provide accurate citations if we can, and even the most well-known quotes can surprise you in the original.

I think this must be it. The translation differs a fair bit though.
In my copy (Norton Critical edition) it reads;
No, each of us must exercise what power he really thinks he can, and we know and you know that in the human real, justice is enforced only among those who can be equally constrained by it, and that those who have power use it, while the weak make compromises.

Thucydides, The Peloponnesian War, Book 5, 89

samba_liten

05-20-2009, 13:59

{Author_43} Thucydides: The Corcryaen speech to the Athenians
{Quote_43} It is the one with the least regrets over concessions to the enemy who will continue in the greatest security.

Same edition as the above post. (Sorry about the double post.)
This one is:Book 1, 34

Hope that helps.

Saldunz

05-20-2009, 16:41

This is an exercise for the class:

De bello Hannibalico

...postquam Discordia taetra
Belli ferratos postes portasque refregit.
Pellitur e medio sapientia, vi geritur res,
Spernitur orator bonus, horridus miles amatur.
Haut doctis dictis certantes sed maledictis
Miscent inter sese inimicitiam a~itantes.
Non ex iure manu consertum sed magis ferro
Rem repetunt, regnumque petunt, vadunt solida vi.

I gave this a try. I took "a~itantes" as "agitantes" because it seemed to fit the sense of the passage. My interpretations may be off.

Concerning the Hannibalic War

... after the foul Discord
Of war broke open the iron-plated doors and gates.
Wisdom was pushed out from the middle, the republic carried by strength,
The good orator spurned, the horrid soldier loved.
Hardly debating the learned with sayings but with insults,
They mix enmity between themselves, agitating.
Not being fought by hand out of law but more by sword,
They take back the republic, and make for monarchy, they advance by solid force.

Hippocleides

05-28-2009, 06:06

I thought I might share some of my favorite quotes with you guys. I realize some of them are a bit long, but it shouldn't be too hard to cut them down to size.

War—I know it well, and the butchery of men.
--Hector taunting Ajax, Illiad 7.275

For if one should propose to all men a choice, bidding them select the best customs from all the customs that there are, each race of men, after examining them all, would select those of their own people; thus all think that their own customs are by far the best: and so it is not likely that any but a madman would joke about such things.
--Herodotus 3.38

In the period of life, short as it is, no man. . . is made by nature so happy, that there will not come to him many times, and not once only, the desire to be dead rather than to live; for misfortunes falling upon us and diseases disturbing our happiness make the time of life, though short indeed, seem long: thus, since life is full of trouble, death has become the most acceptable refuge for man; and God, having given him to taste of the sweetness of life, is discovered in this matter to be full of jealousy.
--Xerxes surveying his grand army, Herodotus 7.46

They are swift to follow up a success, and slow to recoil from a reverse. Their bodies they spend ungrudgingly in their country's cause; their intellect they jealously husband to be employed in her service. A scheme unexecuted is with them a positive loss, a successful enterprise a comparative failure. The deficiency created by the miscarriage of an undertaking is soon filled up by fresh hopes; for they alone are enabled to call a thing hoped for a thing got, by the speed with which they act upon their resolutions. Thus they toil on in trouble and danger all the days of their lives, with little opportunity for enjoying, being ever engaged in getting: their only idea of a holiday is to do what the occasion demands, and to them laborious occupation is less of a misfortune than the peace of a quiet life.
--The Corinthians warn the Spartans against the Athenians, Thucydides 1.70

The sufferings which revolution entailed upon the cities were many and terrible, such as have occurred and always will occur, as long as the nature of mankind remains the same.
--Thucydides 3.82

It was manifest also that whenever a man conferred any benefit on Cyrus or did him any harm, he always sought to outdo him; in fact, some people used to report it as a prayer of his that he might live long enough to outdo both those who benefited and those who injured him, returning like for like. --Xenophon, Anabasis 1.9.11

But it is a peculiarity of the Roman people as a whole to treat everything as a question of main strength; to consider that they must of course accomplish whatever they have proposed to themselves; and that nothing is impossible that they have once determined upon. The result of such self-confidence is that in many things they do succeed, while in some few they conspicuously fail.
--Polybius, Book 1

Snite

05-30-2009, 07:50

I apologize as I cannot give proper citation without my copy of the work mentioned -it's a couple hundred miles away - my memory is not exact, and I don't know Latin and am worried using an internet translator would butcher this:

Livy records that when the Roman Senate was debating the punishment for the survivors of Cannae a senator gave a story about a battle in the First Punic War where the Romans had become divided and one wing encircled. A commander - not a consul I think - then asked for some volunteers to punch a hole through the Cathaginians to the endangered wing and gave this speech:

"Come, let us a die, and by our deaths save the surrounded legions!!" If anyone has a copy of Livy's work on the second Punic war I'm sure they could find it and give proper citation and name the right people involved.

Cuz seriously, it's a great quote.

Snite

IrishHitman

05-31-2009, 13:34

"I consider every good Barbarian to be Greek, and every bad Greek to be Barbarian"
Attributed to Alexander.
I may be paraphrasing >.>

Tomato_Sandwich

06-03-2009, 17:04

‘the glory of riches and appearance is fleeting and fragile, but to have prowess is something distinguished and everlasting.’
Sallust, Bellum Catilinae 1.4

‘It is a splendid thing to do well for the advantage of one’s commonwealth’.
Sallust, Bellum Catilinae 3.1

‘For, to kings, the good are more suspect than the wicked, and prowess in another is always a source of fear to them’.
Sallust, Bellum Catilinae 7.2

‘”Is it not better to die with prowess than to lose in disgrace a life which is pitiable and dishonourable, once you have become the plaything of the haughtiness of others?”’
Speech by Catiline in: Sallust, Bellum Catilinae 20.9

‘”Here, stretching before your eyes, lies that freedom which you have often craved, as well as riches, respect and glory!”’
Speech by Catiline in: Sallust, Bellum Catilinae 20.14

‘The community quaked at these measures, and the face of the city was altered.’
Sallust, Bellum Catilinae 31.1

‘”But, as for us, we seek neither command nor riches, which are the cause of all wars and struggles among mortals, but freedom, which no good man loses except along with his life’s breath.”’
Instructions of C. Manlius to Marcius Rex in: Sallust, Bellum Catilinae 33.4

‘”But, as for those who are endowed with some great command and spend their years at the zenith, all mortals know their deeds.”’
Speech by Caesar in: Sallust, Bellum Catilinae 51.12

‘”Do not think that it was by arms that our ancestors made the commonwealth great from being small. If that were so, we would now be seeing it at its finest by far, since we have greater supply of allies and citizens, and of arms and horses besides, than our ancestors did. But it was other things which made them great, and which we no longer have’.
Speech of Cato the younger in: Sallust, Bellum Catilinae 52.19

‘After Catiline saw that he was shut in by the mountains and enemy forces, that affairs in the city were against him, and that there was no hope of either flight or reinforcements, he deemed the best thing to do in the circumstances would be to test the fortunes of war’.
Sallust, Bellum Catilinae 57.5

‘”I advise you to be courageous and prepared in spirit, and, when you enter the battle, to remember that in your hands you carry riches, honour and glory, to say nothing of freedom and the fatherland.”’
Speech of Catiline in: Sallust, Bellum Catilinae 58.8

‘He helped the flagging, summoned the fit to take over from the injured, made every provision, fought hard himself, and often struck the enemy: he performed simultaneously the duties of committed soldier and good commander.’
Catiline in: Sallust, Bellum Catilinae 60.4

‘In fact, from that entire force, no freeborn citizen was captured either in battle or in flight: they had no more spared their own lives than those of the enemy.’
Sallust, Bellum Catilinae 61.5

‘As for the many who had emerged from the camp for the purpose of viewing or plundering and were turning over the enemy corpses, some discovered a friend, others a guest or relative; likewise there were those who recognised their own personal antagonists. Thus, throughout the entire army, delight, sorrow, grief and joy were variously experienced.’
Sallust, Bellum Catilinae 61.8

‘Then, when the ground for their joy was certain, such a storm of applause began and was so often repeated that it was easily apparent that of all blessings none pleases a throng more than freedom’.
Livy, History of Rome, 33.32.4-10

‘[When] wars are announced, wisdom is driven from their midst, matters waged by force; the good speaker is shunned, the rude soldier loved.’
Aulus Gellius, Attic Nights, 20.10.4

‘The Gauls are exceedingly addicted with wine and fill themselves with wine brought by merchants, drinking it unmixed, and since they drink without moderation because of their craving for it, when they are drunken they fall into a stupor or a state of madness.’
Diodorus of Sicily, Universal History, 5.26.3

‘Meanwhile cause the barbarous business of warfare to be lulled to sleep over every land and sea.’
Lucretius, On the Nature of Things, 1.30

‘But never in those times did a single day consign to destruction many thousands of men marching beneath military standards; never did the boisterous billows of the ocean dash ships and sailors upon the rocks.’
Lucretius, On the Nature of Things, 5.999

‘All the sacred shrines of the gods had been filled by death with lifeless bodies, and all the temples of the celestials, which the sacristans had crammed with guests, were continually littered with corpses.’
Lucretius, On the Nature of Things, 6.1272

Here are a few quotes, some of which might be worthy of use. Sorry i only have translations. really sorry also if any of these have been mentioned before but i started using the search function to see if each one had been mentioned in turn but realised id be there for a few days to do them all because of the wait between searches. now these are up i can start gathering the rest. :book:

Urg

06-05-2009, 06:32

how about ancient hebrew texts? like about military and stuff.

I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to the bible and stuff like that, but I did some quick research into which parts of the Jewish / Christian religious texts are from the right time period. The books 1 & 2 Maccabees are from about 167-160 BC and concern the Maccabean revolt against the Seleucids.

I went through them and found some extracts. Some seem really good for military stuff and there's a couple of funny ones too. I like the one about the elephants and the mulberries.

Both books are Greek texts. Apparently one or both were originally in hebrew / aramaic but that version no longer survives. I'm no greek scholar (only ever learnt latin) so I have no idea whether the greek looks right - I have made a note of the ones where I'm not sure that I have extracted the right part of the verse in greek. Someone who knows greek will need to check them.

Sorry there's so many - but I tried to keep them all short and sweet. Enjoy.

καὶ διῆλθεν ἕως ἄκρων τῆς γῆς καὶ ἔλαβεν σκῦλα πλήθους ἐθνῶν. καὶ ἡσύχασεν ἡ γῆ ἐνώπιον αὐτοῦ, καὶ ὑψώθη, καὶ ἐπήρθη ἡ καρδία αὐτοῦ.

He advanced to the ends of the earth, and plundered many nations. When the earth became quiet before him, he was exalted, and his heart was lifted up.

1 Maccabees 1:3 [Concerning Alexander]

καὶ ἐπλάτυνεν δόξαν τῷ λαῷ αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐνεδύσατο θώρακα ὡς γίγας καὶ συνεζώσατο τὰ σκεύη τὰ πολεμικὰ αὐτοῦ καὶ πολέμους συνεστήσατο σκεπάζων παρεμβολὴν ἐν ῥομφαίᾳ. καὶ ὡμοιώθη λέοντι ἐν τοῖς ἔργοις αὐτοῦ καὶ ὡς σκύμνος ἐρευγόμενος εἰς θήραν.

He extended the glory of his people. Like a giant he put on his breastplate; he girded on his armor of war and waged battles, protecting the host by his sword. He was like a lion in his deeds, like a lion's cub roaring for prey.

Judas Maccabeus

1 Maccabees 3:3-4

εἶπον τῷ Ιουδα Τί δυνησόμεθα ὀλιγοστοὶ ὄντες πολεμῆσαι πρὸς πλῆθος τοσοῦτο ἰσχυρόν; καὶ ἡμεῖς ἐκλελύμεθα ἀσιτοῦντες σήμερον.

"How can we, few as we are, fight against so great and strong a multitude? And we are faint, for we have eaten nothing today."

Jewish force to Judas Maccabeus before the Battle of Beth-Horon

1 Maccabees 3:17

(The quote is only part of the verse and I’m not sure if I have the right part.)

Εὔκοπόν ἐστιν συγκλεισθῆναι πολλοὺς ἐν χερσὶν ὀλίγων, καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν διαφορὰ ἐναντίον τοῦ οὐρανοῦ σῴζειν ἐν πολλοῖς ἢ ἐν ὀλίγοις·

It is easy for many to be hemmed in by few, for in the sight of Heaven there is no difference between saving by many or by few.

1 Maccabees 3:18

(The quote is only part of the verse and I’m not sure if I have the right part.)

Περιζώσασθε καὶ γίνεσθε εἰς υἱοὺς δυνατοὺς

"Gird yourselves and be valiant."

Judas Maccabeus to the Jewish army before the Battle of Emmaus

1 Maccabees 3:58

(The quote is only part of the verse and I’m not sure if I have the right part.)

Μὴ φοβεῖσθε τὸ πλῆθος αὐτῶν καὶ τὸ ὅρμημα αὐτῶν μὴ δειλωθῆτε·

"Do not fear their numbers or be afraid when they charge"

Judas Maccabeus to the Jewish army before the Battle of Emmaus

1 Maccabees 4:8

(The quote is only part of the verse and I’m not sure if I have the right part.)

καὶ συνετρίβησαν τὰ ἔθνη καὶ ἔφυγον εἰς τὸ πεδίον, οἱ δὲ ἔσχατοι πάντες ἔπεσον ἐν ῥομφαίᾳ.

The Gentiles were crushed and fled into the plain, and all those in the rear fell by the sword.

1 Maccabees 4:14-15

(The quote is only part of the verse and I’m not sure if I have the right part.)

καὶ ἐγένετο ἑωθινῇ ἦραν τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτῶν καὶ ἰδοὺ λαὸς πολύς, οὗ οὐκ ἦν ἀριθμός, αἴροντες κλίμακας καὶ μηχανὰς καταλαβέσθαι τὸ ὀχύρωμα καὶ ἐπολέμουν αὐτούς.

At dawn they looked up, and behold, a large company, that could not be counted, carrying ladders and engines of war to capture the stronghold, and attacking the Jews within.

1 Maccabees 5:30

καὶ τοῖς ἐλέφασιν ἔδειξαν αἷμα σταφυλῆς καὶ μόρων τοῦ παραστῆσαι αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸν πόλεμον.

They showed the elephants the juice of grapes and mulberries, to arouse them for battle.

Seleucid army at the Battle of Beth-Zechariah

1 Maccabees 6:34

καὶ πύργοι ξύλινοι ἐπ' αὐτοὺς ὀχυροὶ σκεπαζόμενοι ἐφ' ἑκάστου θηρίου ἐζωσμένοι ἐπ' αὐτοῦ μηχαναῖς, καὶ ἐφ' ἑκάστου ἄνδρες δυνάμεως τέσσαρες οἱ πολεμοῦντες ἐπ' αὐτοῖς καὶ ὁ Ἰνδὸς αὐτοῦ.

And upon the elephants were wooden towers, strong and covered; they were fastened upon each beast by special harness, and upon each were four armed men who fought from there, and also its Indian driver.

Seleucid army at the Battle of Beth-Zechariah

1 Maccabees 6:37

ὡς δὲ ἔστιλβεν ὁ ἥλιος ἐπὶ τὰς χρυσᾶς καὶ χαλκᾶς ἀσπίδας, ἔστιλβεν τὰ ὄρη ἀπ' αὐτῶν καὶ κατηύγαζεν ὡς λαμπάδες πυρός.

When the sun shone upon the shields of gold and brass, the hills were ablaze with them and gleamed like flaming torches.

Seleucid army at the Battle of Beth-Zechariah

1 Maccabees 6:39

καὶ εἰσέδυ ὑπὸ τὸν ἐλέφαντα καὶ ὑπέθηκεν αὐτῷ καὶ ἀνεῖλεν αὐτόν, καὶ ἔπεσεν ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν ἐπάνω αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἀπέθανεν ἐκεῖ.

He got under the elephant, stabbed it from beneath, and killed it; but it fell to the ground upon him and he died.

Eleazar Avaran at the Battle of Beth-Zechariah

1 Maccabees 6:46

καὶ ἔστησεν ἐκεῖ βελοστάσεις καὶ μηχανὰς καὶ πυροβόλα καὶ λιθοβόλα καὶ σκορπίδια εἰς τὸ βάλλεσθαι βέλη καὶ σφενδόνας.

He set up siege towers, engines of war to throw fire and stones, machines to shoot arrows, and catapults.

Antiochus V Eupator at Jerusalem

1 Maccabees 6:51

(The quote is only part of the verse and I’m not sure if I have the right part.)

Μὴ γένοιτο ποιῆσαι τὸ πρᾶγμα τοῦτο, φυγεῖν ἀπ' αὐτῶν, καὶ εἰ ἤγγικεν ὁ καιρὸς ἡμῶν, καὶ ἀποθάνωμεν ἐν ἀνδρείᾳ χάριν τῶν ἀδελφῶν ἡμῶν καὶ μὴ καταλίπωμεν αἰτίαν τῇ δόξῃ ἡμῶν.

"Far be it from us to do such a thing as to flee from them. If our time has come, let us die bravely for our brethren, and leave no cause to question our honour."

Judas Maccabeus to the Jewish army before the Battle of Elasa

1 Maccabees 9:10

(The quote is only part of the verse and I’m not sure if I have the right part.)

καὶ ἐμερίσθη ἡ ἵππος εἰς δύο μέρη, καὶ οἱ σφενδονῆται καὶ οἱ τοξόται προεπορεύοντο τῆς δυνάμεως, καὶ οἱ πρωταγωνισταὶ πάντες οἱ δυνατοί, Βακχίδης δὲ ἦν ἐν τῷ δεξιῷ κέρατι.

The cavalry was divided into two companies, and the slingers and the archers went ahead of the army, as did all the chief warriors.

Seleucid army at the Battle of Elasa

1 Maccabees 9:11

(The quote is only part of the verse and I’m not sure if I have the right part.)

ἐκ τῶν δύο μερῶν καὶ ἐφώνουν ταῖς σάλπιγξιν, καὶ ἐσάλπισαν οἱ παρὰ Ιουδου καὶ αὐτοὶ ταῖς σάλπιγξιν· καὶ ἐσαλεύθη ἡ γῆ ἀπὸ τῆς φωνῆς τῶν παρεμβολῶν, καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ πόλεμος συνημμένος ἀπὸ πρωίθεν ἕως ἑσπέρας.

Flanked by the two companies, the phalanx advanced to the sound of the trumpets; and the men with Judas also blew their trumpets. The earth was shaken by the noise of the armies, and the battle raged from morning till evening.

Battle of Elasa, 160 BC

1 Maccabees 9:12-13

(The quote is only part of the verse and I’m really not sure if I have the right part.)

ἰδοὺ γὰρ ὁ πόλεμος ἐξ ἐναντίας καὶ ἐξόπισθεν ἡμῶν, τὸ δὲ ὕδωρ τοῦ Ιορδάνου ἔνθεν καὶ ἔνθεν καὶ ἕλος καὶ δρυμός, οὐκ ἔστιν τόπος τοῦ ἐκκλῖναι·

For look! the battle is in front of us and behind us; the water of the Jordan is on this side and on that, with marsh and thicket; there is no place to turn.

Jonathan Maccabeus

1 Maccabees 9:45

καὶ ἐξήλλοντο οἱ ἐν τῇ ἑλεοπόλει εἰς τὴν πόλιν, καὶ ἐγένετο κίνημα μέγα ἐν τῇ πόλει.

The men in the siege engine leaped out into the city, and a great tumult arose in the city.

Siege of Gazara

1 Maccabees 13:44

ἄρτι δὲ τῆς ἀνατολῆς διαχεομένης προσέβαλον ἑκάτεροι, οἱ μὲν ἔγγυον ἔχοντες εὐημερίας καὶ νίκης μετὰ ἀρετῆς τὴν ἐπὶ τὸν κύριον καταφυγήν, οἱ δὲ καθηγεμόνα τῶν ἀγώνων ταττόμενοι τὸν θυμόν.

Just as dawn was breaking, the two armies joined battle, the one having as pledge of success and victory not only their valor but their reliance upon the Lord, while the other made rage their leader in the fight.

2 Maccabees 10:28

λεοντηδὸν δὲ ἐντινάξαντες εἰς τοὺς πολεμίους κατέστρωσαν αὐτῶν χιλίους πρὸς τοῖς μυρίοις, ἱππεῖς δὲ ἑξακοσίους πρὸς τοῖς χιλίοις· τοὺς δὲ πάντας ἠνάγκασαν φεύγειν.

They hurled themselves like lions against the enemy, and slew eleven thousand of them and sixteen hundred horsemen, and forced all the rest to flee.

2 Maccabees 11:11

καταρξάμενος τῇ πατρίῳ φωνῇ τὴν μεθ' ὕμνων κραυγὴν ἐνσείσας ἀπροσδοκήτως τοῖς περὶ τὸν Γοργίαν, τροπὴν αὐτῶν ἐποιήσατο.

In the language of their fathers he raised the battle cry, with hymns; then he charged against Gorgias' men when they were not expecting it, and put them to flight.

Jewish army against the Seleucids

2 Maccabees 12:37

Tomato_Sandwich

06-07-2009, 20:23

‘For these i place neither physical bounds nor temporal limits; i have given empire without end.’
Vergil, Aeneid, 1.278-9

‘It has now finally come about that the limits of our empire and of the earth are one and the same’.
Cicero, On the Consular Provinces, 33.

‘It is not permitted for the Roman people to be in servitude, whom the immortal gods wanted to rule over all peoples’.
Cicero, Philippics, 6.19

‘In this way the divine will has given Italy a most excellent and temperate climatic condition in order that it may rule the world.’
Vitruvius, On Architecture, 6.1.11

‘Initially Africa was held by the Gaetulians and Libyans, rough and uncouth peoples whose food was the flesh of wild animals and fodder from the ground, as for cattle’.
Sallust, Bellum Jugurthinum, 18.1

‘The lower part of Africa was mostly taken possession of by the Numidians, and all the conquered passed into the race and name of those in command over them’.
Sallust, Bellum Jugurthinum, 18.12

‘”Will this one victory or these spoils satisfy you? Will your expectations not equal your courage?”’
Speech of P. Decius Mus in: Livy, History of Rome, 10.17.4-6

‘And if our fatherland is pure delight, as well it ought to be... with what great love must we certainly be stirred for a country like ours, as it stands alone amongst all others as the home of virtue, imperial power, and dignity!’
Cicero, On the Orator, 1.196

‘Consider also that we aren’t now working for some glory hoped for in a future time but rather fighting for what we have won, and we are obliged to maintain this rather than seek it out’.
Cicero, Letters to Brother Quintus, 1.1.41

‘The Romans make it a point to embark only upon wars that are just, and to make no casual or precipitate decisions about such matters.’
Diodorus of Sicily, Universal History, 32.5

‘But once they held sway over virtually the whole inhabited world, they confirmed their power by terrorism and by the destruction of the most eminent cities.’
Diodorus of Sicily, Universal History, 32.2, 4.4-5

‘Remember by your empire to rule the world’s peoples (for these will be your arts), to impose the practice of peace, to be sparing to the subjected, and to beat down the defiant’.
Vergil, Aeneid, 6.851-3

‘But there are still traces of the Massiliots’ ancient strength, especially their aptitude in making instruments and outfitting ships.’
Strabo, Geography, 4.1.5

‘...and the Britons gradually drifted into alluring vices: promenades, baths, sumptuous dinners. The naive natives called this part of their servitude “culture”.’
Tacitus, Agricola, 21

‘The tribe of the Fenni live in remarkable wilderness and foul poverty. They have no arms, no horses, no homes. Their food is wild vegetation, skins provide their clothing; they have the ground as a bed. All their hopes lie in their arrows, but they tip them with bone, since they have no iron.’
Tacitus, Germania, 46

‘And yet they think they are happier to live this way than to groan over field work, or to be saddled with building houses, and to be constantly involving the fortunes of both themselves and their neighbours in alternate hopes and fears. They do not care about men; they do not care about heaven. They have achieved something very difficult: they have nothing for which to pray.’
Tacitus, Germania, 46

‘Captive Greece seized it ferocious conqueror and bought the arts into rustic latium.’
Horace, Epistles, 2.1.156-7

‘Greece, which was kindled with a passion for eloquence, and for long has excelled all other states in this regard. And yet [Greece] had discovered all the other arts, and even brought them to perfection before this art of effective and eloquent speaking was developed.’
Cicero, Brutus, 26

‘He knew of Hippocrates’ famous reply, when he was summoned to attend the Persian King for an enormous fee, and stated he would never give his service to barbarians who were enemies of the Greeks.’
Plutarch, Life of Cato the Elder, 23.1-5

‘But in Greece every state is run by irresponsible seated assemblies.’
Cicero, In Defence of Flaccus, 7.16-17

‘Words cannot express, gentlemen, how bitterly foreign nations hate us because of the wanton and outrageous conduct of the men whom we recently have sent to govern them.’
Cicero, On the Manilian Law, 22.65-6

‘He had a stick with him cut from a vine, and he drew with it a circle around Antiochus and said he must stay inside the circle until he gave an answer. The king was astonished at this imperious behaviour, but after hesitating for a few moments, he said he would carry out Rome’s will.’
Polybius, Histories, 29.27.1-6

Hope some of these might be usable aswell.
I know these are very Roman centred but a lot of them could be applicable to any faction.

Urg

06-09-2009, 07:52

Here are some more quotes from Sallust's Jugurthine War, in addition to those above from Tomato Sandwich.

Nam in consule nostro multae bonaeque artes animi et corporis erant, quas omnis avaritia praepediebat: patiens laborum, acri ingenio, satis providens, belli haud ignarus, firmissumus contra pericula et insidias.

For though our consul possessed many excellent qualities of mind and body, they were all nullified by avarice. He had great endurance, a keen intellect, no little foresight, considerable military experience, and a stout heart in the face of dangers and plots.

Concerning L. Calpurnius Bestia, consul 111 BC

Sallust, Bellum Iugurthinum 28:5

"Nam fidei quidem aut concordiae quae spes est? Dominari illi volunt, vos liberi esse; facere illi iniurias, vos prohibere; postremo sociis nostris veluti hostibus, hostibus pro sociis utuntur. Potestne in tam divorsis mentibus pax aut amicitia esse?”

"Pray, what hope have you of mutual confidence or harmony? They wish to be tyrants, you to be free; they desire to inflict injury, you to prevent it; finally, they treat our allies as enemies and our enemies as allies. Are peace and friendship compatible with sentiments so unlike?”

C. Memmius, tribune, speech to the Comitia

Sallust, Bellum Iugurthinum 31:23-24

Dein singulas turmas et manipulos circumiens monet atque obtestatur uti memores pristinae virtutis et victoriae sese regnumque suum ab Romanorum avaritia defendant

Then going about to the various squads and companies, he admonished and besought them to be mindful of their old time valour and victories, and to defend themselves and their country from the greed of the Romans.

Jugurtha before the Battle of the Muthul

Sallust, Bellum Iugurthinum 49:2

Qua in parte rex pugnae affuit, ibi aliquamdiu certatum, ceteri eius omnes milites primo congressu pulsi fugatique.

Wherever the king was present in person, there was some show of resistance; everywhere else his soldiers broke and fled at the first charge.

Sallust, Bellum Iugurthinum 74:3 (Concerning Jugurtha; unnamed battle)

Non possum fidei causa imagines neque triumphos aut consulatus maiorum meorum ostentare, at, si res postulet, hastas, vexillum, phaleras, alia militaria dona, praeterea cicatrices advorso corpore.

“I cannot, to justify your confidence, display family portraits or the triumphs and consulships of my forefathers; but if occasion requires, I can show spears, a banner, trappings and other military prizes, as well as scars on my breast.”

Sallust, Bellum Iugurthinum 85:29 (Marius, addressing the Comitia)

Sudorem, pulverem et alia talia relinquant nobis, quibus illa epulis iucundiora sunt.

“Sweat, dust, and all such things let them leave to us, to whom they are sweeter than feasts.”

Sallust, Bellum Iugurthinum 85:41 (Marius, addressing the Comitia)

Plura dicerem, Quirites, si timidis virtutem verba adderent. Nam strenuis abunde dictum puto.

“I would say more, citizens, if words could make cowards brave. For the resolute I think I have spoken abundantly.”

Sallust, Bellum Iugurthinum 85:50 (Marius, concluding his address to the Comitia)

Tomato_Sandwich

06-10-2009, 09:35

‘Shortly thereafter [Mithridates] captured Manius Aquillius, who was the foremost agitator for this embassy and for this war. Mithridates led him around tied to an ass, and proclaimed himself Manius to everyone who saw him. Finally, at Pergamum, Mithridates poured molten gold down his throat as a rebuke against Roman avarice.’
Appian, Mithridatic Wars, 21

‘Don’t you realize that the Romans turned eastward militarily only after the ocean had blocked their westward advance? That since the beginning they have possessed nothing that they have not stolen: home, wives, lands, empire?’
Sallust, Letter of Mithridates, 17-21

‘While he appeared to be ready to answer their requests, he gave an arranged signal for his troops to surround the Jews. The Jews now found themselves in a ring of soldiers, three men deep, and they were dumbstruck at the unexpected sight.’
Josephus, Jewish war, 2.169-74

‘The Jews saw that war was now fast approaching the capital, and they abandoned the feast and ran to arms’.
Josephus, Jewish war, 2.517-19

‘This is because peace is not welcome to these people, and they cannot distinguish themselves more readily among dangers. Besides, a great retinue cannot be maintained except by war and violence.’
Tacitus, Germania, 14

‘The first reports of the Cimbri and Teutones’ numbers and strength were incredible... They most likely were German tribes, whose territory extends to the northern ocean. This idea is supported by their great size, the light blue colour of their eyes, and the fact that the German word for plunderers is ‘Cimbri’.’
Plutarch, Life of Marius, 11.2-6

‘Entrapped by forests, marshes, and ambuscades, the army was annihilated almost to a man by the same enemy whom it had been accustomed to slaughter like cattle...’
Velleius Paterculus, Roman Histories, 2.119

‘From earliest times this country has had an ambiguous national character and geographical situation...’
Tacitus, Annals, 2.56. on the Armenian plateau.

‘At the same time he talked in bold and menacing ways about the old boundaries of the Persian and Macedonian empires, and his intention of taking the territories that Cyrus once held and after him Alexander.’
King Artabanus of Parthia in: Tacitus, Annals, 6.31

‘He looked over the row of prisoners, without any regard to their individual records, and... announced that those ‘between the bald heads’ were to be lead away’.
Caligula in: Suetonius, Lives of the Caesars, Caligula 27.

‘Finally, as if he were to embark upon a war, he drew up his battle lines and set out his catapults and other artillery on the ocean shore. When no one had the least idea what he intended, he suddenly gave the order that they were to gather sea shells, filling their helmets and the folds of their tunics. These were what he termed spoils owed by the Ocean to the Capitol and Palatine.’
Caligula in: Suetonius, Lives of the Caesars, Caligula 46

‘As for his horse Incitatus... it is said, too, that he meant to make him consul’.
Caligula in: Suetonius, Lives of the Caesars, Caligula 55.

‘Nero watched the fire from the tower of Maecenas, delighted with what he termed “the beauty of the flames” and, dressed in his stage attire, he sang of “the Fall of Troy”.’
Nero in: Suetonius, Lives of the Caesars, Nero 38.

‘”I will carry out great vengeance on them and punish them in my wrath. Then they will know that I am the lord, when I take my vengeance upon them”.’
Ezekiel 25:17

‘And no more under slavish yoke to thee will either Greek or Syrian put his neck, barbarian or any nation, thou shalt be plundered and shalt be destroyed for what thou didst, and wailing aloud in fear thou shalt give until thou shalt repay.’
Sibylline Oracles, 8.121-9

A few more. again sorry i only have translations.

Urg

06-10-2009, 23:20

I've started going through the "old" quotes that need more accurate citations (only the latin ones). Here's what I could find for the Seneca quotes.

{Author_101} Lucius Annaeus Seneca
{Quote_101} Iniqua nunquam regna perpetuo manent - Stern masters do not reign long.

The quote comes from: Medea 196

{Author_120} Lucius Annaeus Seneca
{Quote_120} Non mortem timemus, sed cogitationem mortis

We do not fear death, but the thought of death.

The quote comes from: Epistulae Morales IV, 30:17

{Author_122} Lucius Annaeus Seneca
{Quote_122} Constant exposure to dangers will breed contempt for them.

The latin is: Contemptum periculorum adsiduitas periclitandi dabit

The quote comes from: De Providentia 4:12

{Author_45} Lucius Annaeus Seneca
{Quote_45} In war there is no prize for runner-up.

{Author_46} Lucius Annaeus Seneca
{Quote_46} In war, when a commander becomes so bereft of reason and perspective that he fails to understand the dependence of arms on Divine guidance, he no longer deserves victory.

I looked long and hard but couldn't find these anywhere in Seneca's works.

{Author_62} Lucius Annaeus Seneca
{Quote_62} Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentis telum est

A sword is never a killer, it's a tool in the killer's hands. (or something to that effect - I think the text file already has a translation??)

The latin quote is incorrect. It should be: Sic quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit: occidentis telum est

The quote comes from: Epistulae Morales XI-XIII, 87:30

Urg

06-10-2009, 23:59

Here are the ones from Cicero, Tibullus and Ovid.

{Author_107} Albius Tibullus
{Quote_107} Who was the first that forged the deadly blade? Of rugged steel his savage soul was made.

The latin is: Quis fuit, horrendos primus qui protulit enses? Quam ferus et vere ferreus ille fuit!

The quote is from: Elegiae I, 10:1-2

{Author_111} Publius Ovidius Naso
{Quote_111} The gods favour the bold.

The latin is: Audentes deus ipse iuvat!

The quote is from: Metamorphoses, 10:586

It should probably be translated as "God favours the bold." (ie. god is singular...but I'm not too bothered).

{Author_127} Marcus Tullius Cicero
{Quote_127} Nihil tam munitum quod non expugnari pecunia possit - Nothing is so well fortified that money cannot capture it.

The quote is from: In Verrem, 1:2

{Author_135} Marcus Tullius Cicero
{Quote_135} The sinews of war are infinite money.

The latin is: Nervos belli, pecuniam infinitam

The quote is from: Philippic 5:5

Urg

06-11-2009, 02:10

Here are the ones from Tacitus:

{Author_112} G. Cornelius Tacitus
{Quote_112} Great empires are not maintained by timidity.

Quote attributed to: Tiridates I of Armenia, exhorting Vologases I of Parthia to send Parthian forces to Armenia

The latin is: Non enim ignavia magna imperia contineri

Quote is from: Annales, 15:1

(this quote is repeated below, at quote/author no. 7)

{Author_131} Tacitus, Annals of Imperial Rome
{Quote_131} Barbarians: Greek Historians ignore them, reserving their admiration for Greece only. We Romans too, have underestimated them, since in our devotion to antiquity we neglect modern history

This quote is incorrect. It is actually about Arminius and not about barbarians in general. It should be: He completed thirty-seven years of life, twelve years of power, and he is still a theme of song among barbarous nations, though to Greek historians, who admire only their own achievements, he is unknown, and to Romans not as famous as he should be, while we extol the past and are indifferent to our own times.

The latin for that quote is: Septem et triginta annos vitae, duodecim potentiae explevit, caniturque adhuc barbaras apud gentis, Graecorum annalibus ignotus, qui sua tantum mirantur, Romanis haud perinde celebris, dun vetera extollimus recentium incuriosi.

It comes from Annales, 2:88

{Author_137} G. Cornelius Tacitus
{Quote_137} The proper arts of a general are judgement and prudence.

The latin is: Ratione et consilio, propriis ducis artibus

The quote is from: Historiae, 3:20

{Author_7} G. Cornelius Tacitus
{Quote_7} Great empires are not maintained by timidity.

This is a repeat. See above.

{Author_71} G. Cornelius Tacitus
{Quote_71} Even the bravest are frightened by sudden terrors.

The latin is: Etaim fortes viros subitis terreri

The quote comes from: Annales, 15:59

{Author_73} G. Cornelius Tacitus
{Quote_73} A bad peace is even worse than war.

Attributed to: All the good men of Rome, worried about the Gallic revolt, circa 21 AD.

The latin is: Miseram pacem vel bello bene mutari.

The quote comes from: Annales, 3:44

{Author_74} G. Cornelius Tacitus
{Quote_74} The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

The latin is: Nisi impunitatis cupido … magnis semper conatibus adversa

The quote comes from: Annales, 15:50

{Author_99} G. Cornelius Tacitus
{Quote_99} Valour is the contempt of death and pain.

I couldn’t find this one. Sorry.

Urg

06-11-2009, 02:52

...and here's the ones from Silius Italicus. I don't have access to an english translation of the text (Punica or the other works), so if anyone has access to one, that would be helpful (see below).

{Author_108} Hannibal Barca at the age of 9, ca. 238 BC
{Quote_108} I swear so soon as age will permit I will use fire and steel to arrest the destiny of Rome.

The quote comes from: Silius Italicus, Punica, 1:114-115

The latin is: Romanos terra atque undis, ubi competet aetas, ferro ignique sequar Rhoeteaque fata reuoluam.

I'm a bit stumped by the reference to "Rhoetea". Rhoeteum is an area near Troy. Given the Punica is a poem, and that Italicus lived in the period immediately after Virgil, this may be a poetic reference to Rome's mythical roots as set out in the Aeneid? Someone with access to an english translation should be able to sort this out.

Also, the words "on land and at sea" should be added to the end of the english quote.

{Author_66} Silius Italicus
{Quote_66} In war we must be speedy.

I couldn't find this one. Again, if anyone has access to an english translation of Italicus' works then they may be able to find it.

Urg

06-11-2009, 05:50

... from Terence and Publilius Syrus.

{Author_148} Terence
{Quote_148} Auribus teneō lupum - I am holding the wolf by his ears.

Quote is from: Phormio, Act 3, Line 506

{Author_59} Publilius Syrus
{Quote_59} Pardon one offence and you encourage the commission of many.

Latin is: Qui culpae ignoscit uni, suadet pluribus

Quote is from: Sententiae

{Author_6} Publilius Syrus
{Quote_6} We should provide in peace what we need in war.

Latin is: Prospicere in pace oportet, quod bellum iuvet

Quote is from: Sententiae

{Author_64} Publilius Syrus
{Quote_64} He is best secure from dangers who is on his guard even when he seems safe.

Latin is: Caret periclo, qui etiam cum est tutus cavet

Quote is from: Sententiae

Nb: Sententiae is literally a list of sentences (ie. maxims). There are no book or chapter numbers. If necessary I can find the maxim "numbers".

oudysseos

06-11-2009, 07:18

Without all the hoopla, here are the files for EB1 of you want to add some new quotes.

https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5817/divider800pa6.png

Quotes (http://files.filefront.com/quotestxt/;13891355;/fileinfo.html)
Descr_quotes_lookup (http://files.filefront.com/descr+quotes+lookuptxt/;13891360;/fileinfo.html)
Descr_transition_screen (http://files.filefront.com/descr+transition+screentxt/;13901657;/fileinfo.html)

https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5817/divider800pa6.png

Download all three files.

Quotes goes in your EB/data/text folder.
Descr_quotes_lookup and descr_transition_screen go in your EB/data folder.

Say "yes" if asked to overwrite old files. It is always a good idea to backup your old files first, just in case. I will not of course take any responsibility if it all goes wrong somehow, although I might feel bad about it.

That's it. I have playtested these files on my own version of EB1 and have encountered no problems. If anyone does, PM me or post on this thread and I will do what I can to help.

The new quotes file contains ca. 240 quotes, at least half of which are new (you will have seen some of them on the quotes project thread). Almost all of the remaining old quotes have been redone to include correct citations and often the original language. A few old quotes do remain to be redone in this way.

All of the old quotes of questionable historical accuracy have been removed, including the Shakespeare, Confucius and Sun Tzu, as well as any of the other quotes that had questions raised about their authenticity.

The quotes have all been formatted and edited for length and appearance, and the strings have been renumbered from scratch, making it easy for someone to add or modify the quotes if they wish. Anyone interested in doing so is advised to contact me first for some hints.

Bear in mind that the work still remains to some extent WIP: you may find that some of the longer quotes overlap the artwork on the loading screens. The layout on EB2 is somewhat different.

I do not anticipate posting any more versions of these files for EB1. Any further developments will be applied to EB2.

oudysseos

06-12-2009, 14:57

Not a shameless bump, but a note to say that the project is not finished.

There are still some old quotes to verify/cite, and plenty of good material still out there (there's an earlier post of mine that outlines as yet untapped sources). I won't be redoing the EB1 quotes again, but any really killer quotes could still make it into EB2 eventually.

And although the quotes themselves are a relatively minor part of the game, for me at least it has been a fantastic opportunity to reacquaint myself with texts that, in some cases, I haven't looked at for 20 years (yes, that long since college). I hope the same is true for those of you who have submitted material, or who have had a look at the Perseus project or found an old Loeb edition in a second-hand bookstore, or whatever.

For many of us, Europa Barbarorum isn't just a game, it's a portal to the world of the mind.

Heart felt thanks to all the fans who helped out. I had no idea that so many people would contribute.

Urg

06-13-2009, 07:11

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news ... but I'm getting a lot of crashes with the new quotes files. No idea what is causing it.

Urg

06-13-2009, 07:38

Hold that...I think Ive fixed it.

oudysseos

06-13-2009, 20:17

Can you tell me what it is you did that fixed it?

Urg

06-14-2009, 03:25

Can you tell me what it is you did that fixed it?

At first it was crashing continuously. Now I'm still getting the occasional crash, but its just occasional.

I think it was a vista issue. For some reason the files weren't transferring into the folders properly. After transferring the files twice, I opened the quotes text folder and it was still the old file. After the third time it seemed to transfer.

I foudnd the best way to transfer the files was to download them into a separate file than click-and-drag them across. Downloading direct to the folder, and cut and paste didn't seem to work well.

Urg

06-14-2009, 23:01

Just wanted to say a big thank you to Oudysseos and anyone else who organised the new quotes. They're great! Really enjoying reading them as I play.

Cheers.

oudysseos

06-15-2009, 11:03

I just want to confirm that I have played 75+ iterations of EB1.2 with the new files without any crashes, problems or slowdowns. I suspect, for those of you who have reported a problem, two issues.

1. Vista: Urg posted that he had to make sure that the files were indeed copied into the correct folders. I do not have Vista so I can't confirm that, but let me just recommend that you download the files into a separate folder and then click-and-drag them into the correct locations. More than that I cannot say.

2. Not getting all three files: I just checked filefront, and the three files have three different download counts, which means that lots of people have not read the directions.

IF YOU DO NOT INSTALL ALL THREE FILES IN THE CORRECT LOCATION, THIS WILL NOT WORK.

I don't know if I can make that any clearer.

Although, as I said, I have encountered no problems and am confident that there are no errors, I will review the 2 ancillary files to make sure that all the numbers match up. If I did miss something, I'll repost.

oudysseos

06-15-2009, 12:37

OK, so I have reconfirmed that all the numbers, labels and strings match up over all three files: there is no earthly reason why these should be causing crashes, IF YOU INSTALLED ALL THREE FILES correctly. Without descr_transition_screen and descr_quotes_lookup, the new quotes will not show up in game, even if you replace the old quotes file. Vista users are urged to double-check that the new files have really been installed.

I have run another 50 tests on my EB1.2 without any changes, crashes or slow-downs, so if anybody is experiencing problems I'm stumped.

Urg

06-15-2009, 23:40

They're working perfectly for me too. And very enjoyable.

oudysseos

06-16-2009, 08:24

Oh, Urg, re: your message: as I said, the project is not in the least finished. In fact, I had never originally intended to redo the EB1 quotes at all. For one thing, the file was a mess (I essentially redid it from scratch). So the release of the new quotes for EB1 is merely a happy by-product, and also because I felt that so many fans had done so much excellent work (like yourself) that they should enjoy the fruits of their labours sooner than the first EB2 release.

But the EB2 phase is still ongoing. There are still some old quotes left to do as far as citation goes, and a lot of new material that is specific to individual factions that I left out of the EB1 version. There is so much of it that once I get to 300 quotes, I might start eliminating any old quotes from vanilla RTW and overly familiar ones from EB1, just so the whole thing seems new. I also eventually plan, since I have all this material on a spreadsheet sorted by author, language, culture etc. to do some kind of wiki for them, with biographical info and links to the larger texts that the quotes come from. That won't be done until after EB2.

So, short answer, keep posting stuff if you want. Anything really cool will get in, and I am always on the look-out for non Graeco-Roman material.

Alsatia

06-16-2009, 09:48

"The result was that most of them were cut down in the order of march, without being able to defend themselves"
- Polybius, The Histories (III, LXXXIV), speaking of the battle of Lake Trasimene

I believe this is too modern.....

"United Gaul, Forming a single nation, animated by a common spirit, can defy the Universe"
- Statue of Vercingetorix, Alesia (?)

(the statue was built by Napoleon :inquisitive:)

Immortales

06-16-2009, 09:50

Recently, i read in an issue of 'Ancient Warfare' a very suitable phrase:

A general should be free from avarice. "For many who can face the shields and spears of a host with courage are blinded by gold."

- Onasander; Strategikos, 1.8
A mid-first century AD greek platonic philosopher who wrote a treatsie on the role of the commander in the Roman army.

Urg

06-16-2009, 23:32

Here's some more missing Latin quotes/citations.

{Author_69} Publius Statius
{Quote_69} The cruelty of war makes for peace.

I looked through the Thebaid, Achilleid and Silvae and couldn’t find it. There’s a passage at Thebaid VII:806-807 that gets close. Maybe the quote is in error. Or maybe someone else can find it?

{Author_76} Publius Flavius Vegetius
{Quote_76} An ambush, if discovered and promptly surrounded, will repay the intended mischief with interest.

Latin is: Deprehensa uero subsessa, si circumueniatur utiliter, plus periculi sustinet, quam parabat inferre.

The quote is from: De Re Militari, 3:6

{Author_77} Hannibal Barca, addressing Phormio's lecture on leadership
{Quote_77} I have seen during my life many an old fool; but this one beats them all.

Latin is: multos se deliros senes saepe vidisse, sed qui magis quam Phormio deliraret vidisse neminem.

The quote is from: Cicero de oratore II 18:75

{Author_78} Publius Flavius Vegetius
{Quote_78} Few men are born brave; many become so through training and force of discipline.

Latin is: Paucos uiros fortes natura procreat, bona institutione plures reddit industria.

Quote is from: De Re Militari, 3:26

{Author_79} Publius Flavius Vegetius
{Quote_79} A general is not easily overcome who can form a true judgement of his own and the enemy's forces.

Latin is: Difficile uincitur qui uere potest de suis et de aduersarii copiis iudicare.

Quote is from: De Re Militari, 3:26

{Author_9} Gaius Julius Caesar
{Quote_9} In war important events result from trivial causes.

Latin is: Quod saepe in bello parvis momentis magni casus intercederent

Quote is from: De bello civile 1:21

{Author_98} Publius Flavius Vegetius
{Quote_98} Valour is superior to numbers.

Latin is: Amplius iuuat uirtus quam multitudo.

Quote is from: De Re Militari, 3:26

Urg

06-17-2009, 00:02

Two corrections in the quotes text file:

Quote 1: Hyth should be Yth

Translation 27 is incorrectly referred to as “trans_28” (when quote 27 appears on screen, the translation is missing. It does not seem to cause a crash.)

Urg

06-17-2009, 00:03

Final Latin additions/citations to the quotes text file:

Quote 31, Latin is: Nunc denique est perfectum ut imperii nostri terrarumque illarum idem esset extremum.

Quote 31 is from On the Consular Provinces, 33

Quote 36, Latin is: Nam si vos omnibus imperitare vultis, sequitur ut omnes servitutem accipiant?

Quote 36 is from Annales 12:37

Quote 45, Latin is Romanorum cum se non quo hostis uocasset sed quo imperatores sui duxissent ituros esse

Quote 46, Latin is Populum Romanum servire fas non est, quem di immortales omnibus gentibus imperare voluerunt.

Quote 49, Latin is Graecis, gente lingua magis strenua quam factis

Quote 58, Latin is Urbem venalem et mature perituram, si emptorem invenerit!

Quote 59, Latin is Nam, ut ego aestumo, regem armis quam munificentia vinci minus flagitiosum est.

Quote 65. Latin is Numquamne ergo familia nostra quieta erit? Semperne in sanguine, ferro, fuga vorsabitur?

Quote 66. Latin is Graecorum autem totae res publicae sedentis contionis temeritate administrantur.

Quote 66 comes from 7.16 (not 16-17)

Quote 69, Latin is Nos terrarum ac libertatis extremos

Quote 70, Latin is Auferre trucidare rapere falsis nominibus imperium, atque ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

Quote 101, Latin is Qui magno imperio praediti in excelso aetatem agunt, eorum facta cuncti mortales novere.

Quote 138, Latin is Amat Victoria curam

Quote 153, Latin is Fortuna belli semper ancipiti in loco est.

Quote 153 comes from: Phoenissae, Act 4, 622

Quote 218, Latin is Plus animi est inferenti periculum quam propulsanti.

machinor

06-17-2009, 18:20

I just checked through Urg's quotes from the Maccabees with my limited Greek vocab:

εἶπον τῷ Ιουδα Τί δυνησόμεθα ὀλιγοστοὶ ὄντες πολεμῆσαι πρὸς πλῆθος τοσοῦτο ἰσχυρόν; καὶ ἡμεῖς ἐκλελύμεθα ἀσιτοῦντες σήμερον.
"How can we, few as we are, fight against so great and strong a multitude? And we are faint, for we have eaten nothing today."
Jewish force to Judas Maccabeus before the Battle of Beth-Horon
1 Maccabees 3:17

The quoted passage starts at "Τί δυνησόμεθα..." as far as I can see, so the first 3 Greek words should be left out. Apart form that it's fine.

Εὔκοπόν ἐστιν συγκλεισθῆναι πολλοὺς ἐν χερσὶν ὀλίγων, καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν διαφορὰ ἐναντίον τοῦ οὐρανοῦ σῴζειν ἐν πολλοῖς ἢ ἐν ὀλίγοις·
It is easy for many to be hemmed in by few, for in the sight of Heaven there is no difference between saving by many or by few.
1 Maccabees 3:18

That one's fine.

Περιζώσασθε καὶ γίνεσθε εἰς υἱοὺς δυνατοὺς
"Gird yourselves and be valiant."
Judas Maccabeus to the Jewish army before the Battle of Emmaus
1 Maccabees 3:58

Not sure about that one... that first 2 words are fine ("Grid yourself and") but the translation of the rest seems to be not-so-literal, but should be fine.

Μὴ φοβεῖσθε τὸ πλῆθος αὐτῶν καὶ τὸ ὅρμημα αὐτῶν μὴ δειλωθῆτε·
"Do not fear their numbers or be afraid when they charge"
Judas Maccabeus to the Jewish army before the Battle of Emmaus
1 Maccabees 4:8

That one's fine.

καὶ συνετρίβησαν τὰ ἔθνη καὶ ἔφυγον εἰς τὸ πεδίον, οἱ δὲ ἔσχατοι πάντες ἔπεσον ἐν ῥομφαίᾳ.
The Gentiles were crushed and fled into the plain, and all those in the rear fell by the sword.
1 Maccabees 4:14-15

That one's fine. It's very interesting, that the word translated as "sword" is "rhomphaia".

καὶ ἔστησεν ἐκεῖ βελοστάσεις καὶ μηχανὰς καὶ πυροβόλα καὶ λιθοβόλα καὶ σκορπίδια εἰς τὸ βάλλεσθαι βέλη καὶ σφενδόνας.
He set up siege towers, engines of war to throw fire and stones, machines to shoot arrows, and catapults.
Antiochus V Eupator at Jerusalem
1 Maccabees 6:51

That one's fine.

Μὴ γένοιτο ποιῆσαι τὸ πρᾶγμα τοῦτο, φυγεῖν ἀπ' αὐτῶν, καὶ εἰ ἤγγικεν ὁ καιρὸς ἡμῶν, καὶ ἀποθάνωμεν ἐν ἀνδρείᾳ χάριν τῶν ἀδελφῶν ἡμῶν καὶ μὴ καταλίπωμεν αἰτίαν τῇ δόξῃ ἡμῶν.
"Far be it from us to do such a thing as to flee from them. If our time has come, let us die bravely for our brethren, and leave no cause to question our honour."
Judas Maccabeus to the Jewish army before the Battle of Elasa
1 Maccabees 9:10

Not sure about that one. :inquisitive:

καὶ ἐμερίσθη ἡ ἵππος εἰς δύο μέρη, καὶ οἱ σφενδονῆται καὶ οἱ τοξόται προεπορεύοντο τῆς δυνάμεως, καὶ οἱ πρωταγωνισταὶ πάντες οἱ δυνατοί, Βακχίδης δὲ ἦν ἐν τῷ δεξιῷ κέρατι.
The cavalry was divided into two companies, and the slingers and the archers went ahead of the army, as did all the chief warriors.
Seleucid army at the Battle of Elasa
1 Maccabees 9:11
The quoted passage only goes until "δυνατοί, ...". You can leave out the part from "Βακχίδης..." on.

ἐκ τῶν δύο μερῶν καὶ ἐφώνουν ταῖς σάλπιγξιν, καὶ ἐσάλπισαν οἱ παρὰ Ιουδου καὶ αὐτοὶ ταῖς σάλπιγξιν· καὶ ἐσαλεύθη ἡ γῆ ἀπὸ τῆς φωνῆς τῶν παρεμβολῶν, καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ πόλεμος συνημμένος ἀπὸ πρωίθεν ἕως ἑσπέρας.
Flanked by the two companies, the phalanx advanced to the sound of the trumpets; and the men with Judas also blew their trumpets. The earth was shaken by the noise of the armies, and the battle raged from morning till evening.
Battle of Elasa, 160 BC
1 Maccabees 9:12-13
Hmm, could it be that there is something missing at the beginning of the quote? The rest of the quote is fine.

Urg

06-17-2009, 23:13

Thanks heaps Machinor. My knowledge of Greek is, well, non-existent.

Urg

06-17-2009, 23:52

Here are some Latin quotes concerning the barbarians. Some of them are probably too long for quotes.

For with barbarians, the more eager a man's daring, the more does he inspire confidence.

Nam barbaris, quanto quis audacia promptus, tanto magis fidus habetur.

C. Cornelius Tacitus, Annales 1:57

For the huge shields and unwieldly lances of the barbarians cannot, amid trunks of trees and brushwood that springs from the ground, be so well managed as our javelins and swords and closefitting armour.

Nec enim inmensa barbarorum scuta, enormis hastas inter truncos arborum et enata humo virgulta perinde haberi quam pila et gladios et haerentia corpori tegmina.

Germanicus, addressing his troops before the battle of the Weser river

C. Cornelius Tacitus, Annales 2:16

Our soldiers, with their shields pressed to their breasts, and their hands grasping their sword-hilts, struck at the huge limbs and exposed faces of the barbarians, cutting a passage through the slaughtered enemy.

Miles, cui scutum pecotri adpressum et insidens capulo manus, latos barbarorum artus, nuda ora foderet viamque strage hostium aperiret.

Battle of the Weser river

C. Cornelius Tacitus, Annales 2:21

With barbarians, indecision is a slave's weakness; prompt action king-like.

Et barbaris cunctatio servilis, statim exequi regium videtur.

C. Cornelius Tacitus, Annales 6:32

Practise clemency and justice, which barbarians would like the more for being unused to them.

Clementiamque ac iustitiam, quanto ignota barbaris, tanto laetiora capesseret.

The emperor Claudius’ advice to Meherdates.

C. Cornelius Tacitus, Annales 12:11

He reminded Meherdates that the impulsive enthusiasm of barbarians soon flags from delay or even changes into treachery.

Monet Meherdaten barbarorum impetus acris cunctatione languescere aut in perfidiam mutari.

C. Cassius Longinus, governor of Syria

C. Cornelius Tacitus, Annales 12:12

There is nothing of which barbarians are so ignorant as military engines and the skilful management of sieges.

Nihil tam ignarum barbaris quam machinamenta et astus oppugnationum.

C. Cornelius Tacitus, Annales 12:45

In their rage and their triumph, they spared no variety of a barbarian's cruelty.

Nec ullum in barbaris ingeniis saevitiae genus omisit ira et victoria.

British tribes under Boudicea.

C. Cornelius Tacitus, Agricola, 1:16

They received his speech with enthusiasm, and as is usual among barbarians, with songs, shouts and discordant cries.

Excepere orationem alacres, ut barbaris moris, fremitu cantuque et clamoribus dissonis.

C. Cornelius Tacitus, Agricola, 1:33

He consented, with the characteristic perfidy of barbarians, to the destruction of Anicetus.

Fluxa, ut est barbaris, fide pactus Aniceti exitium perfugas tradidit.

Prince of the Sedochezi.

C. Cornelius Tacitus, Historiae, 3:48

Civilis, however, was naturally politic to a degree rarely found among barbarians.

Sed Civilis ultra quam barbaris solitum ingenio sollers

Concerning C. Julius Civilis, leader of the Batavi

C. Cornelius Tacitus, Historiae, 4:13

For the Numidians are, beyond all the other barbarians, violently addicted to love.

Et sunt ante omnes barbaros Numidae effusi in uenerem.

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 29:23

How inconstant and changeable were the minds of the barbarians.

Quam uana et mutabilia barbarorum ingenia essent.

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 29:23

With foreigners, with barbarians, all Greeks have, and ever will have, eternal war.

Cum alienigenis, cum barbaris aeternum omnibus Graecis bellum est eritque.

Ambassadors of Macedon, addressing the Aetolian League.

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 31:29

They live under customs and rites more brutally savage than any barbarians, nay, than wild beasts themselves.

Moribus ritibusque efferatioribus quam ulli barbari, immo quam immanes beluae uiuunt

Aristaenos of Megalopolis, denouncing the Aetolian League and Nabis of Sparta

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 34:24

The barbarians, as is their usual habit, spent the greater part of the night in rejoicing, in exultation and in noisy demonstrations.

Plerumque noctis barbari more suo laetari, exultare, strepere vocibus.

Sallust, Bellum Iugurthum, 98:6

Murder should not, after the manner of barbarians, be atoned for by murder, and blood by blood.

Barbaro ritu caede caedem et sanguinem sanguine expianda.

Sallust, Ad Caesarem Senem de Re Publica Oratio, 3:4

Antisthenes was taunted with having a barbarian, a Thracian woman, for his mother; his retort was that even the mother of the gods was from Mount Ida.

Antistheni mater barbara et Thraessa obiciebatur: respondit et deorum matrem Idaeam esse.

Seneca, de Constantia, 18:6

What else is it, in fact, but their anger - its own worst foe - that reduces to impotency the barbarians, who are so much stronger of body than we, and so much better able to endure hardship?

Quid enim est aliud quod barbaros tanto robustiores corporibus, tanto patientiores laborum comminuat nisi ira infestissima sibi?

Seneca, de Ira, 1:11:1

But there lives no race that does not feel the goad of anger, which masters alike both Greeks and barbarians, and is no less ruinous to those who respect the law than to those who make might the only measure of their right.

Nulla gens est quam non ira instiget, tam inter Graios quam inter barbaros potens, non minus perniciosa leges metuentibus quam quibus iura distinguit modus uirium.

Seneca, de Ira, 3:2:1

Such was the ferocity of barbarian kings when in anger - men who had had no contact with learning or the culture of letters.

Haec barbaris regibus feritas in ira fuit, quos nulla eruditio, nullus litterarum cultus inbuerat

Seneca, de Ira, 3:17:1

You are like the barbarians who, usually, when they are blockaded, having no knowledge of the engines of war, watch with indifference the effort of the besiegers.

Sicut barbari plerumque inclusi et ignari machinarum segnes laborem obsidentium spectant.

Seneca, De Vita Beata, 26:3

Latin words do not suggest themselves readily to one in whose ears the uncouth jargon of barbarians is ever ringing, distressing even to the more civilized barbarians.

Non facile Latina ei homini verba succurrant, quem barbarorum inconditus et barbaris quoque humanioribus gravis fremitus circumsonat.

Seneca, Ad Polybium de Consolatione, 18

Why do we find Greek cities in the very heart of barbarian countries?

Quid sibi uolunt in mediis barbarorum regionibus Graecae urbes?

Seneca, Ad Helviam Matrem de Consolatione, 7:1

A coin is not necessarily a bad one because a barbarian who does not know the government stamp has rejected it.

Non est malus denarius, quem barbarus et ignarus formae publicae reiecit.

Seneca, De Beneficiis, 5:20:1

"Why, oh why, have I not long ago escaped from all this torture and all this mockery? Why should I be armed and yet wait for death to come?"

'Quare, quare, non omne tormentum, omne ludibrium iamdudum effugio? quare ego mortem armatus exspecto?'

A barbarian warrior, killing himself (by a spear-stab to the throat) rather than fighting at the Roman games.

Seneca, Epistulae, 8:70:26

Nor were the barbarians as barbarous in language and in race as you are in your nature and your habits.

Neque tam barbari lingua et natione illi quam tu natura et moribus.

Cicero, In Verrem, 4:112

You have subdued nations, savage in their barbarism, countless in their numbers.

Domuisti gentis immanitate barbaras, multitudine innumerabilis.

Cicero, Pro Marcello, 8(3), concerning Caesar

But was not Romulus, think you, a king of a barbarous people?

Cedo, num, barbarorum Romulus rex fuit?

Cicero, de re publica, 1:58

The Greeks, who say that all peoples are either Grecianized or barbarous.

Si ut Graeci dicunt omnis aut Graios esse aut barbaros

Cicero, de re publica, 1:58

I believe the Greeks were just as barbarous as the Romans.

Non Graecos minus barbaros quam Romanos puto.

Cicero, de re publica, 1:58

Urg

06-18-2009, 00:02

...

For the Numidians, after the usual barbarous custom, encamped here and there without any regularity.

Numidae enim quadam barbara consuetudine nullis ordinibus passim consederant.

Caesar, De Bello Civili 2:38

oudysseos

06-18-2009, 16:34

Urg mate, you've really done some work here. Thanks.

I have already incorporated some of the edits suggested by Urg and Machinor into the EB2 build: as I have said I won't redo the EB1 quotes again. If anyone wants advice as to how to make minor changes or add more quotes pm me or ask on this thread. Let me say that I don't always include the Latin or Greek, depending on the length of the quote in general, as it has to fit on the loading screen. I will put together a separate EB quotes wiki at some point, with longer texts and commentaries. Not tomorrow.

Aristotle's De Animalibus Historia viii. 28, 7
Ἀɛὶ Λίβύη ϕέρɛί ṯί καίνόν
Libya is always showing something new.

Just a little one that popped up in an unrelated project.

Urg

06-19-2009, 03:32

Here's a couple of older Latin quotes. Was trying to find something from the pre- or early EB time period.

If anyone should stir up war against his country, or delivers a Roman citizen into the hands of the enemy, he shall be punished with death.

Qui hostem concitaverit quive civem hosti tradiderit, capite puniri

Lex Duodecim Tabularum (Twelve Tables), IX

He took Corsica and the city of Aleria. He dedicated a temple to the Storms as a just return.

Hec cepit Corsica Aleriaque urbe pugnandod, dedet Tempestatebus aide meretod votam.

Epitaph on the sarcophagus of L. Cornelius Scipio, consul 259 BC

Celtic_Punk

06-19-2009, 11:43

A few of my favourite excerpts from St. Crispian's day speech by Henry V written by Shakespeare - for those of you who do not know.

"That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us. "

"He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian.'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispian's day.'
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember, with advantages,
What feats he did that day. Then shall our names,
Familiar in his mouth as household words-
Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester-
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red.
This story shall the good man teach his son;"

"From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day."

Everyman who I know who's seen combat lives by those famous words, "we happy few".

EDIT: perhaps some of this speech has been suggested but I only did a search for "we would not die in that mans company" so I assumed it would be fine to just throw in my favourite parts aswell as the first verse.

Oh! and another favourite quote of mine from Platoon ; "Everybody's gotta die sometime, Red!" - SSGT Robert Barnes or "The first casualty of war is innocence." - Oliver Stone

I think that last quote is much truer than the quote from Aeschylus "Truth is the first casualty of war" because you can still be honourable and truthful to an enemy to an extent. In some cases war TURNS dasterdly rather than begins with lies. You must first lose innocence to kill. Therefore before the first shots are fired, before the first man dies, before the first lie is spewed, The deciders have lost their innocence inorder to declare a state of war and send the young to death. The young will lose their innocence along the way to meet the enemy.

Alsatia

06-21-2009, 22:32

I thought all the Shakespeare would not be included.

Celtic_Punk

06-22-2009, 22:35

why?

Foot

06-22-2009, 23:07

why?

What does the writings of shakespeare have to do with hellenistic era of the ancient world? Hence we won't include quotes that are written within an alien context to our own mod's timeframe.

Foot

Saldunz

06-23-2009, 06:42

What does the writings of shakespeare have to do with hellenistic era of the ancient world? Hence we won't include quotes that are written within an alien context to our own mod's timeframe.

FootIs that just a general rule restricted to timeframe, or all other forms of context too? Because I could've sworn that the quotes file has something from Ovid's Amores which I find really bizarre to read right before a battle...

oudysseos

06-23-2009, 15:29

Actually, unless I am greatly mistaken, the only Ovid in the quotes is

{Author_15} Publius Ovidius Naso
{Quote_15} The gods favour the bold.

Which is itself a paraphrase of Ennius, I think.

But to answer your broader question, the time-frame is the primary criterion for including a quote, along with relevance to the area involved: there are no Chinese quotes, for example, not even ones from the 3rd century BCE. I bent the rules in 3 or 4 cases (the Irish triads and so on) because it is otherwise very difficult to give pre-literate people (or people whose literature had been totally lost) a voice. Since we're talking 4 quotes out of 300 I think that we are still pretty good. But although there may be some shades of grey, Shakespeare is without question well over the line. To be honest, I'd leave out the Vegetius as well, except that one can argue that he is mainly epitomizing earlier sources.

EDIT: Actually 'The Gods favour the bold' probably comes from Terence originally, by way of Vergil.

Saldunz

06-23-2009, 17:22

This is the one I was thinking of.

{Quote_65} Perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim - Be patient and tough; some day this pain will be useful to you.
{Author_65}Ovid

If I recall correctly, that line was about being rejected in love. Not that I remember Ovid perfectly.

EDIT: Actually, I just realised I don't have the absolute newest quotes file, but this was still in the second most recent release.

Urg

07-06-2009, 01:04

Here are some more, from Nepos (Hannibal) and from Livy. I tried to focus on quotes about non-Romans and non-Greeks. I stopped at Livy 23:14 so if anyone wants to continue on from there, feel free.

It is not to be disputed that Hannibal surpassed other commanders in ability as much as the Romans surpassed all other people in valour.

Non est infitiandum Hannibalem tanto praestitisse ceteros imperatores prudentia, quanto populus Romanus antecedat fortitudine cunctas nationes.

Cornelius Nepos, Hannibal, 1

All things are the property of the brave.

Omnia fortium uirorum.

Reply of the invading Senonian Gauls to the Roman ambassadors, c387 BC

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 5:36

These terms a victorious enemy dictates. These, though harsh and grievous, your condition commends to you.

Haec uictor hostis imperat; haec quamquam sunt grauia atque acerba, fortuna uestra uobis suadet.

Speech of Alorcus, on behalf of Hannibal, to the Saguntines.

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 21:13

“They are but the resemblances, nay, are rather the shadows of men; being worn out with hunger, cold, dirt, and filth, and bruised and enfeebled among stones and rocks.”

“Umbrae hominum, fame, frigore, inluuie, squalore enecti, contusi ac debilitati inter saxa rupesque”

P. Cornelius Scipio to his troops concerning Hannibal’s army after its crossing of the Alps, November 218 BC

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 21:40

Here, soldiers, where you have first met the enemy, you must conquer or die.

Hic uincendum aut moriendum, milites, est.

Hannibal, before the battle of the Ticinus, November 218 BC

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 21:43

The confidence and courage of the attacker are greater than those of the defender.

Quanto maior spes, maior est animus inferentis uim quam arcentis.

Hannibal

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 21:44

“Now will I offer this victim to the shades of my countrymen, miserably slain.”

“Iam ego hanc uictimam manibus peremptorum foede ciuium dabo".

Ducarius the Insubrian Gaul, before killing Flaminius at Lake Trasimene

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 22:6

“Let us die, soldiers, and by our deaths rescue the surrounded legions from ambuscade”

"Moriamur, milites, et morte nostra eripiamus ex obsidione circumuentas legiones"

M. Calpurnius Flamma, at Camarina, First Punic War, c258 BC

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 22:60

oudysseos

07-06-2009, 08:07

Urg- fantastic stuff.

Saldunz- I don't know what version you have but this is number 65 now:

{Author_65} Adherbal, The Jugurthine War, Ch. XIV
{Quote_65} Shall our family, then, never be at peace? Shall we always be harassed with war, bloodshed, and exile?

Elmetiacos

07-07-2009, 16:48

All things are the property of the brave.

Omnia fortium uirorum.

Reply of the invading Senonian Gauls to the Roman ambassadors, c387 BC

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 5:36
I read the original Latin just to make sure it was really there, but it didn't strike me before that it doesn't actually mean "all things are the property of the brave" or "To the brave belong all things": Omnia fortium uirorum (esse) is "all (be) to the strong men" literally. If you'll indulge me, this sounds quite poetic in reconstructed Gaulish: *Papon uirobo peprobo buet

Urg

07-07-2009, 23:11

I like it. But is it Senonian Gallic? :beam: Just kidding.

On the latin quote, I may be a bit rusty (its been about 10 years since I studied it). But isn't "fortium uirorum" genitive, not dative?

Lovejoy

07-08-2009, 00:25

"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching."

Apparently it comes from some Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BCE. I know its as far from EBs time frame as a ww2 quote, but its a cool quote! How much have we really change from the ancient times?

Anyway, I cant find a good source for the quote, so I dont even know if its real. Maybe someone here can help me out? Anyone recognize it?

Teleklos Archelaou

07-08-2009, 02:21

I read the original Latin just to make sure it was really there, but it didn't strike me before that it doesn't actually mean "all things are the property of the brave" or "To the brave belong all things": Omnia fortium uirorum (esse) is "all (be) to the strong men" literally. If you'll indulge me, this sounds quite poetic in reconstructed Gaulish: *Papon uirobo peprobo buet
Bah.

It very literally and clearly does mean "all things are the property of the brave". Genitives in Latin have the nasty habit of indicating possession, even in Livy. This example follows that general rule and shows possession.

Jolt

07-08-2009, 02:33

why?

By then we could add the General Patton's quote I find most memorable, which has a nice ring to it.

"Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man.", which would be cute considering the timeframe the game is on. :D

Azathoth

07-08-2009, 02:55

"A woman is a creature that is always shopping. " - Ovid

Can someone get a source for this?

Elmetiacos

07-08-2009, 20:29

Bah.

It very literally and clearly does mean "all things are the property of the brave". Genitives in Latin have the nasty habit of indicating possession, even in Livy. This example follows that general rule and shows possession.
and esse is what form of the verb?

Urg

07-08-2009, 23:27

and esse is what form of the verb?

Esse is the present infinitive.

The complete sentence from Livy is very long, but to make sense of the latin here is a chunk of the sentence which puts the quote in its context:

"cum illi se in armis ius ferre et omnia fortium uirorum esse ferociter dicerent"

which translates as:

"...and on their fiercely replying, that they carried their right in their swords, that all things were the property of the brave..."

That translation is from the 1850s and is a bit dated. In my view a better modern translation would give the verb "esse" a present tense (ie. "all things are the property..."). Not only is this a better translation for modern english, but it also more accurately reflects the fact that esse is present (infinitive) tense.

The reason it is infinitive is quite simple. It follows the verb dicerent, ie. "They said that all things are the property of the brave..."

Elmetiacos

07-08-2009, 23:44

Esse is the present infinitive...

...The reason it is infinitive is quite simple. It follows the verb dicerent, ie. "They said that all things are the property of the brave..."
Latin isn't my strong point: am I wrong is associating this esse with Cato's Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam ('furthermore, I think Carthage must be destroyed') so that it has an imperative or subjunctive function ''all things should belong to the brave"?

A Terribly Harmful Name

07-08-2009, 23:51

"Furthermore, (I) think Carthage (must) be destroyed"

You are right.

Urg

07-09-2009, 02:08

Latin isn't my strong point: am I wrong is associating this esse with Cato's Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam ('furthermore, I think Carthage must be destroyed') so that it has an imperative or subjunctive function ''all things should belong to the brave"?

Mine's pretty rusty too.

The ordinary meaning of esse is "to be". In linguistic speak it is the "infinitive" (eg. to run, to bite, etc) of the verb sum ("I am"). In english the same verb has many forms even in its present tense (eg. I am, he is, they are).

In latin the verb esse also has a special role to play alongside other verbs. In the example you give the verb is delendam esse which is a conjugation of the verb deleo (I destroy), delere (to destroy).

The form delendam esse is what is called the "gerundive" (we do not have it in english) and implies a requirement to do, or not to do, something. Delendam esse literally means "it is required to be destroyed".

Esse is also used with latin verbs to form other tenses and forms.

Does that make sense?

So the answer to your question is: esse is the same word on each occasion, but it has a wholly different meaning in each case.

option

07-09-2009, 04:14

Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but I was just reading History of the Peloponnesian War when I came across this beautiful quote:

This day will be the beginning of great misfortune for the Hellenes. - Melesippus, the final Spartan herald to Athens, on being rebuffed by the Athenians, 431 BC

Thucydides (edited by Robert B. Strassler, trans. by Richard Crawley), History of the Peloponnesian War (as presented within Strassler's The Landmark Thucydides), Book Two, 2.12.3

Teleklos Archelaou

07-09-2009, 04:18

and esse is what form of the verb?

Nothing to do with passive periphrastics (though they can be in indirect speech too as Cato's comment was related), but subordinate to a verb of thinking/knowing/saying/etc. (here dicerent) the infinitive is indeed translated as a finite verb in indirect discourse. Thanks for trying to prove other people are wrong twice within three (or four) words in something you're admittedly unsure of though; that takes some balls.

Urg

07-09-2009, 07:28

Hey I didn't mind him asking a question about the quote I found. It gave me the chance to review my understanding of latin.

Latin is, admittedly, a bit confusing at times.

Elmetiacos

07-09-2009, 15:18

Ah well, in that case buet isn't the correct form in Gaulish, or probably isn't, because the consensus is that it's the 3rd person subjunctive of the verb meaning "to be". So it's literally "(that) all is of the brave/strong men"? *Papon uiron pepron biet - assuming *papon < Proto-Celtic *kwakwo- is neuter. Don't know why I assumed that, really.

Alsatia

07-09-2009, 22:09

Here's two from the bible,

"So be strong and courageous! Do not be afrais and panic before them for the lord your god will personally go ahead of you."
- The Bible (Deuteronomy 31:6)

"Just as death and destruction are never satisfied, so human desire is never satisfied."
- The Bible (Proverbs 27:20)

I cannot get a hebrew translation because I don't trust online translators and I don't have an extensive knowledge on hebrew.

(The verses are from the NLT[New Living Translation])

Horatius

11-26-2009, 05:05

I haven't read all the quotes yet so I may post something already stated

I noticed the thread asked for usually overlooked quotes so here is what I came up with.

I am putting these up from memory, so feel free to correct me I won't be offended.

"They make a desert and call it peace"-Calgachus

"Why should we share the penalty when we do not share the guilt? Why should we pay taxes when we have no part in the honours, the commands, the policy making?"-Hortensia

"Qui Bono (Who benefits)"-Cicero, trial of Sextus Roscius

"I can not stop for even as I do this I fear one day the order may be given for Rome"-Scipio Aemelianus

""Writing a poem you can read to no one is like dancing in
the dark."-Ovid

scorion

11-26-2009, 16:02

I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know whether the following quote of Thucydides has been mentioned. (I didn't spot it in the first posts)
Although his history and the subject it deals with doesn't fall within the EB time frame I'd say it's still pretty much relevant due to the partly Hellenic setting. (and is still as it gives a good idea of the 'realist' point of view in international relations)

Athenians. For ourselves, we shall not trouble you with specious pretences--either of how we have a right to our empire because we overthrew the Mede, or are now attacking you because of wrong that you have done us--and make a long speech which would not be believed; and in return we hope that you, instead of thinking to influence us by saying that you did not join the Lacedaemonians, although their colonists, or that you have done us no wrong, will aim at what is feasible, holding in view the real sentiments of us both; since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.

History of the Peloponnesian War, b5 89 according to Richard Crawley.

I consulted Jowett's and Hobbs' translation as well, but due to the use of language I thought Richards Crawley's translation suited the setting the best.
Since I'm not schooled in ancient Greek I'm not sure how his translation holds up, but seeing what you've already gathered I'm confident you'll be able to make that assessment. (on that account Jowett's translation would probably be more authorative)
I could probably find the original Greek online, but I have reason to believe you will have better access to good sources in that respect.

Crawley's translation is available at wikisource:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War/Book_5

Ah.. a search did show just now that you've included the quote in another thread, however. Still, it has not been a complete waste of time, since before this I had no idea Thomas Hobbs had translated Thucydides. ;)

Horatius

11-26-2009, 19:05

"By decree of the senate mourning is not to exceed thirty days"-Senatus Consultam following the battle of Cannae

moonburn

11-27-2009, 08:36

i read in a romance by coleen mcl something :\ on the book "1st man of rome" that ceaser was suposed to have told a young 19 year old vercingetorige "you may speak with passion and that will bring you suporters, but unleass you temper your passion with inteligence you will be able to provide your suporters with what they need/want" or something like that wich could be interesting :book:

machinor

11-27-2009, 20:23

Please take the time and have a look at the first page. There is an example of the exact format the quotes should be posted in.

IrishHitman

11-30-2009, 04:06

What does the writings of shakespeare have to do with hellenistic era of the ancient world? Hence we won't include quotes that are written within an alien context to our own mod's timeframe.

Foot

Then why are Bible quotes being included?

The Bible was either written a long time before or almost century after EB's timeframe.
It is historically and culturally insignificant in this time period.

I'll start demanding Táin quotes pretty soon if I see Bible quotes...

Foot

11-30-2009, 13:25

Then why are Bible quotes being included?

The Bible was either written a long time before or almost century after EB's timeframe.
It is historically and culturally insignificant in this time period.

I'll start demanding Táin quotes pretty soon if I see Bible quotes...

And you obviously don't know your bible scholarship.

The Bible was written and rewritten throughout our timeframe, but most of the books of the old testament were written in their final form in about the 5th Century BC. I'm not sure about New Testament books, but the Gospels were written at most a couple of hundred years after. All were written in a world that was recognisable and part of the common heritage of people of that time. It is historically and culturally significant in our time period.

Shakespeare appears in a world that was some 1800 years after our start date. If you cannot see the difference in that, then I'm at a loss for words.

Foot

antisocialmunky

11-30-2009, 14:51

oudysseos

11-30-2009, 16:41

Yes, the 5th-6th century BCE with atleast sections of the books of the Torah dating from before. You're not going to ever really be able to get a concrete date through since the Jewish priests burned old copies.

The Gospel Books usually in any point of view is acknowledged to be 1st century material except maybe John with numerous copies being produced in the early 2nd century to attest to 1st century authorship via circulation. Now, how many decades after Jesus the Gospels are written and which order? No one really knows though the textual critics would say otherwise.

So what exact time frame is allows? Near East iron-age to Vegetius?

There are a couple of quotes from TaNaKh sources, but they are mostly non-religious in character. However, a quote from Rabbi Hillel is in 'cos he was an important historical figure in the period. There are a couple of Buddhist quotes from Asoka as well, for the same reason. These do not imply that the EB team is proselytizing a particular religion, just acknowledging some of the many different cultures and societies that EB embraces. 'Christian' sources as such are too late, really. There's an outside chance that there might be something usable in St. Paul.

As far as time frame goes, anything from Homer up to Tacitus and Plutarch is pretty good, with particular interest in non-Graeco-Roman sources. Vegetius is really too late, and most of his material from vanilla RTW is gone- especially where original/earlier versions of the same aphorism could be found.

The point of the quotes is to add some flavour: they don't have to be just about war (although most are)- there are some quotes in there that are ethnography. They can be about any of the peoples and regions covered by the map- even those that aren't factions (so you'll see a quote in there about Massalia - but that doesn't mean it's one of the new factions).

Urg

11-30-2009, 22:45

Then why are Bible quotes being included?

The Bible was either written a long time before or almost century after EB's timeframe.
It is historically and culturally insignificant in this time period.

I'll start demanding Táin quotes pretty soon if I see Bible quotes...

Which Bible quotes are you referring to? As far as I am aware, the main set of biblical quotes in the current set of quotes compiled by Oudy are the ones from books 1 & 2 Maccabees which I extracted.

I think you will find that the historical setting for those books falls smack bang in the middle of the EB timeframe, namely the middle of the second century BC, and deals with the Jewish revolt against the Seleucids.

The descriptions of the battles against the Seleucid phalangites and elephants are, in my opinion, perfect for EB.

There are plenty of other Jewish sources that are relevant to the EB time frame which I don't think anyone has been through yet. It would be great if someone could do so.

Shapur II

12-02-2009, 23:49

This is just a suggestion

but why not have a quote from the Rig Vedas too?,since it had existed for a while by the time of EB's timeframe and India is on the eastern edge of the map

an example:

1. I Laud Agni, the chosen Priest, God, minister of sacrifice,
The hotar, lavishest of wealth.
2. Worthy is Agni to be praised by living as by ancient seers.
He shall bring. hitherward the Gods.
3. Through Agni man obtaineth wealth, yea, plenty waxing day by day,
Most rich in heroes, glorious.
4. Agni, the perfect sacrifice which thou encompassest about
Verily goeth to the Gods.
5. May Agni, sapient-minded Priest, truthful, most gloriously great,
The God, come hither with the Gods.
6. Whatever blessing, Agni, thou wilt grant unto thy worshipper,
That, Angiras, is indeed thy truth.
7. To thee, dispeller of the night, O Agni, day by day with prayer
Bringing thee reverence, we come
8. Ruler of sacrifices, guard of Law eternal, radiant One,
Increasing in thine own abode.
9. Be to us easy of approach, even as a father to his son:
Agni, be with us for our weal.

bobbin

02-07-2010, 19:50

Found this rather lovely quote,

"Païs ôn kosmios ginou
Hèbôn enkratès
Mesos dikaios
Presbutès euboulos
Teleutôn alupos."

"As children, learn good manners.
As young men, learn to control the passions.
In middle age, be just.
In old age, give good advice.
Then die, without regret."

It is a Delphic maxim that comes from an inscription found in the Baktrian city of Ai-Khanoum on the Heroon of Kineas the founder of the city, and dates from around 300-250BC. It is written by a certain Klearchos who some believe to be Klearchos of Stoloi a student of Aristotle.

Here is a photo (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/AiKhanoumMaxim.jpg) of the inscription (its the piece of text on the far right).
I'm also not sure where the inscription is actually held, I know it was at the Musée Guimet in paris for a while but I think it's kept in the Afghan national museum.

A link containing the original text as well as some other info.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=uVPSFtaE5H4C&lpg=PA45&ots=esN4Xx37Dg&dq=Kineas%20inscription%20original%20greek&pg=PA44#v=onepage&q=&f=false

sc369

02-07-2010, 20:01

παντες οι λαβοντες μαχαιραν εν μαχαιρη απολουνται

All they that take the sword shall perish by the sword
Matthew 26:52 (c. 30CE)

Cadwalader

02-13-2010, 21:00

I found two good quotes from Homer and Euripides which I think would be appropriate:

ζυνòς 'Evυáλιoς κaí τε κτανéoντα κατéκτα
Alike to all is the War God, and him who would kill he kills. (Il. 18.309)

δíκα δíκαν èκàλεσε καí φóνoς φóνoν
Justice has called for justice and blood for blood. (suppl. 614)

I had to copy and paste Greek letters to write this, so for convenience's sake I used Latin letters whenever I needed to add diacritics. Both were found in How to Kill a Dragon: Aspects of Indo-European Poetics by Calvert Watkins. The English translations are the ones provided in this book.

The first quote put into context (Hector arguing against Polydamas' advice to leave the battlefield following the death of Patroclus):

Then with an angry glance from beneath his brows spake to him Hector of the flashing helm: [285] Polydamas, this that thou sayest is no longer to my pleasure, seeing thou biddest us go back and be pent within the city. In good sooth have ye not yet had your fill of being pent within the walls? Of old all mortal men were wont to tell of Priam's city, for its wealth of gold, its wealth of bronze; [290] but now are its goodly treasures perished from its homes, and lo, possessions full many have been sold away to Phrygia and lovely Maeonia, since great Zeus waxed wroth. But now, when the son of crooked-counselling Cronos hath vouchsafed me to win glory at the ships, and to pen the Achaeans, beside the sea, [295] no longer, thou fool, do thou show forth counsels such as these among the folk. For not a man of the Trojans will hearken to thee; I will not suffer it. Nay, come; even as I shall bid, let us all obey: for this present take ye your supper throughout the host by companies, and take heed to keep watch, and be wakeful every man. [300] And of the Trojans whoso is distressed beyond measure for his goods, let him gather them together and give them to the folk for them to feast thereon in common;1 better were it that they have profit thereof than the Achaeans. But in the morning, at the coming of Dawn, arrayed in our armour, let us arouse sharp battle at the hollow ships. But if in deed and in truth goodly Achilles is arisen by the ships, the worse shall it be for him, if he so will it. I verily will not flee from him out of dolorous war, but face to face will I stand against him, whether he shall win great victory, or haply I. Alike to all is the god of war, and lo, he slayeth him that would slay. So Hector addressed their gathering, and thereat the Trojans shouted aloud, fools that they were! for from them Pallas Athene took away their wits. To Hector they all gave praise in his ill advising, but Polydamas no man praised, albeit he devised counsel that was good. So then they took supper throughout the host; but the Achaeans [315] the whole night through made moan in lamentation for Patroclus. And among them the son of Peleus began the vehement lamentation, laying his man-slaying hands upon the breast of his comrade and uttering many a groan, even as a bearded lion whose whelps some hunter of stags hath snatched away [320] from out the thick wood; and the lion coming back thereafter grieveth sore, and through many a glen he rangeth on the track of the footsteps of the man, if so be he may anywhere find him; for anger exceeding grim layeth hold of him. Even so with heavy groaning spake Achilles among the Myrmidons:

Macilrille

02-19-2010, 11:10

-En Varus eodemque iterum fato vinctae legiones!

"Varus and the Legions, enchained once more in the old doom"

Arminus, before assaulting Caecinas' disorderly legions in broken terrain at the head of a picked band.

Annals of Tacitus, Book I, LXV.

It falls just outside EB's timeframe by two years, but is so adequate for describing the German way of fighting Romans at the time and in EB.

Urg

03-03-2010, 05:45

In honour of the recent Boii preview, I have found some quotes concerning the Boii from Livy:

“The Boii having cut off his head, carried it and the spoils they stole off his body, in triumph into the most sacred temple they had.”

“Spolia corporis caputque praecisum ducis Boii ouantes templo quod sanctissimum est apud eos intulere.”

The Boii victory over the Roman consul-elect L. Postumius Albinus at the Battle of the Litana Forest, 215 BC.

Livy, Ab urbe condita, XXIII:24

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“The Boians, a nation remarkably impatient of delay, and quickly disgusted at a state of inaction, separated, and withdrew to their several forts and villages.”

“Boi, ut est gens minime ad morae taedium ferendum patiens, in castella sua uicosque passim dilapsi sunt.”

The Boii army disbands after their victory over the Roman consul M. Claudius Marcellus, 196 BC.

Livy, Ab urbe condita, XXXIII:36

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“This tempest of cavalry first confused and disordered, and at length entirely broke the line of the Gauls”

“Haec procella equestris primo confudit et turbauit, deinde dissipauit aciem Gallorum”

The Romans attacking the Boii at the Battle of Mutina, 193 BC.

Livy, Ab urbe condita, XXXV:5

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“As soon as they turned their backs, and fled precipitately on every side, the legionary cavalry was sent in pursuit of them.”

“Postquam terga dabant et in fugam passim effundebantur, tum ad persequendos eos legionarii equites immissi.”

The Romans pursue the Boii after the Battle of Mutina, 193 BC.

Livy, Ab urbe condita, XXXV:5

Andy1984

03-19-2010, 16:45

"A new enemy, therefore, was being sought for; a colony which had been a loyal neighbour was being covered with infamy. It was against the unoffending people of Antium that war was declared; it was against the Roman plebs that war was really being waged."
A Roman tribune disapproving of what he sees as an upcoming war of Roman aggression (Livius, Ab urbe condita, III:10)

The entire citation is as follows:

As though to show how events revolve in the same cycle year by year, the Hernici reported that the Volscians and Aequi, in spite of their exhaustion, were equipping fresh armies. Antium was the centre of the movement; the colonists of Antium were holding public meetings in Ecetra, the capital, and the main strength of the war. On this information being laid before the senate, orders were given for a levy. The consuls were instructed to divide the operations between them; the Volscians were to be the province of the one, the Aequi of the other. The tribunes, even in face of the consuls, filled the Forum with their shouts declaring that the story of a Volscian war was a prearranged comedy, the Hernici had been prepared beforehand for the part they were to play; the liberties of the Roman were not being repressed by straightforward opposition, but were being cunningly fooled away. It was impossible to persuade them that the Volscians and Aequi, after being almost exterminated, could themselves commence hostilities; a new enemy, therefore, was being sought for; a colony which had been a loyal neighbour was being covered with infamy. It was against the unoffending people of Antium that war was declared; it was against the Roman plebs that war was really being waged. After loading them with arms they would drive them in hot haste out of the City, and wreak their vengeance on the tribunes by sentencing their fellow-citizens to banishment. By this means - they might be quite certain - the Law would be defeated; unless, while the question was still undecided, and they were still at home, still unenrolled, they took steps to prevent their being ousted from their occupation of the City, and forced under the yoke of servitude. If they showed courage, help would not be wanting, the tribunes were unanimous. There was no cause for alarm, no danger from abroad. The gods had taken care, the previous year, that their liberties should be safely protected.

kind regards,

Andy

Edit: I'll add the latin quotes once I've read the entire book. At this moment I'm just collecting more english quotes.