View Full Version : Dressed in black, school, gun, you get it.
10 shot dead at German school in Stuttgart, yet another crybaby going nuts, buy GTA or something if sadistic trash is your sick thing.
RIP casualties, now if only the security has guns. Sad day :no:
edit: busted. The sick :daisy: got arrested at his parents house. A 25 year old, still living at his parents, geez.
Mucho succes to everyone affected. Unlike Louis this type of news makes me very very very angry 10 young people dead because some emo couldn't cope with life. Give me ten minutes and a tong, would love some quality-time with this sick :daisy:
Bah, disgusting.
Louis VI the Fat
03-11-2009, 12:15
Sad, sad, sad. :shame:
Sometimes this sort of news makes me angry, sometimes frustrated, or scared. Today, just sadness.
Edit: well, no. A certain exasperation too. At what point does one decide, 'hey, know what, I'm going to buy a commando suit, get a gun, and I'm going trough long and intricate preparations to shoot as many children as possible.'
You don't look cool, mighty, at last in control. You look pathetic and weak. A miserable, incompetent loser.
It is sad that a third rate coward, who wouldn't last a day in any really violent surrounding, should destroy so much, forever, just to think himself mighty and powerful for ten minutes. The banality of it irritates me. He could've stayed at home for a :daisy:. Or gotten a decent haircut at last. Either could've sufficed to make these children live. That very triviality, the very irrelevance of some pimple-faced frustrated loser, makes it all feel so pointless.
CountArach
03-11-2009, 12:19
Comiserations :sad:
Louis VI the Fat
03-11-2009, 12:56
Bugger. Ten in Germany, ten in Alabama (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7936382.stm).
Sheesh. :wall:
Hosakawa Tito
03-11-2009, 13:02
Do you have a link? Any of the news sources available describe him as a 17 year old former student and most claim he hasn't been apprehended yet. Condolences to those touched by this tragedy.
Do you have a link? Any of the news sources available describe him as a 17 year old former student and most claim he hasn't been apprehended yet. Condolences to those touched by this tragedy.
He's dead by now, shot himself, 17 year old it is. 11 dead kids and many wounded.
FFS 16 dead that makes this the bloodiest out of them all.
KukriKhan
03-11-2009, 13:10
Sky News report's (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/School-Shooting-In-Stuttgart-Germany-Fatalities-Reported-By-Police/Article/200903215239043?f=rss) the shooter being 17.
No age on the Alabama guy, yet.
Don Corleone
03-11-2009, 15:02
Very, very sad news.
I thought Germany didn't allow personal gun ownership. Why didnt' that stop this tragedy?
Very, very sad news.
I thought Germany didn't allow personal gun ownership. Why didnt' that stop this tragedy?
You can own guns in Europe, even here in the Netherlands if you don't have a criminal record, you just can't keep them loaded but that would be a stupid thing to do anyway. These things cannot be stopped but it would make my day if people would stop caring about these sick :daisy:. As it turns out I probably know one of the victims parents, a dutch couple that moved from Rotterdam to Germany two years ago.
nope, they weren't. Good for them at least. I am becomming overly scared same happened with the belgium kindergarten in Belgium. Got a call all fine.
Apparently his dad had several legal guns and one wasn't found when police searched the house.
Pretty disgusting this, I always wonder about the motives and now that I think about it, the consequences. This could lead for example to more calls for censorship of games, not like games are important in the light of so many dead people. :shame:
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
03-11-2009, 15:25
Columbine ROund 3! Another 10 minutes he could have made a new record. Shame people have to do this. Fame? Bullying? Hassarment? We may have know. :hanged::rtwno:
Rhyfelwyr
03-11-2009, 16:24
Gah, not again. :sick:
The worst thing is, we know there's nothing that can be done to stop it happening again.
He's dead by now, shot himself, 17 year old it is. 11 dead kids and many wounded.
FFS 16 dead that makes this the bloodiest out of them all.
Apperently the police shot him down. He took a hostage and shot even 2 people in front of a grocery store.
Aaah. Humantity at its best.
Seamus Fermanagh
03-11-2009, 17:39
For the moment, let's not let this morph into a "gun" thread. There will be time enough for that later. My prayers to the families who lost people in both incidents.
GeneralHankerchief
03-11-2009, 17:45
What a colossal waste of life. Dozens dead just to satisfy the twisted fantasies of two seriously messed up people. Just once I wish we'd be able to take these miserable excuses for human beings alive so we can let them witness the damage they caused.
What a colossal waste of life. Dozens dead just to satisfy the twisted fantasies of two seriously messed up people. Just once I wish we'd be able to take these miserable excuses for human beings alive so we can let them witness the damage they caused.
Don't you realize that the whole purpose of the rampage is for the perp to die. They want to die, they just don't want to go alone.
The universe is hostile
So impersonal
Devour to survive
So it is
So it's always been
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hii17sjSwfA
Eye on the TV
'Cause tragedy thrills me
Whatever flavor it happens to be
Like
Killed by the husband
Drowned by the ocean
Shot by his own son
She used a poison in his tea
Then she kissed him goodbye
That's my kind of story
It's no fun till someone dies
Don't look at me like
I am a monster
Frown out your one face
But with the other you
Stare like a junkie
Into the TV
Stare like a zombie
While the mother holds her child
Watches him die
Hands to the sky, cryin'
"Why, oh why?"
'Cause I need to watch things die
From a distance
Vicariously, I live while the whole world dies
You all need it too don't lie
Why can't we just admit it?
Why can't we just admit it?
We won't give pause until
The blood is flowing.
Neither the brave nor bold--
Nor brightest of stories told--
We won't give pause until
The blood is flowing.
I need to watch things die
From a good safe distance.
Vicariously, I
Live while the whole world dies.
You all feel the same so
Why can't we just admit it?
Blood like rain come down
Drum on grave and ground
Part vampire
Part warrior
Carnivore
and voyeur
Stare at the transmittal
Sing to the death rattle
Credulous at best
Your desire to believe in
Angels in the hearts of men
Pull your head on out
Your hippy haze and give a listen
Shouldn't have to say it all again
The universe is hostile
So impersonal
Devour to survive
So it is
So it's always been
We all feed on tragedy
It's like Blood to a vampire
Vicariously, I live while the whole world dies
Much better you than I
LittleGrizzly
03-11-2009, 19:45
Errm... can someone explain why a school shooting and a horny old landlady topics have been mixed together... i am really missing whatever logic explains this action...
What I really don't understand here is the pupil coming back to his school after sometime away to commit the crime, not that it excuses it but these school shooter types seem to to be loners/outcasts who generally get picked on then they take revenge generally randomly at students....
But this guy left school, came back to it with (im assuming) most of the people he knew from there gone... im thinking maybe some built up rage and/or depression leading from his school life... so he decided to go and get revenge on the 'school'.
Such a tragedy...
GeneralHankerchief
03-11-2009, 19:47
Don't you realize that the whole purpose of the rampage is for the perp to die. They want to die, they just don't want to go alone.
Exactly - deny them what they want.
Meneldil
03-11-2009, 20:10
I fail to understand what a link to Vicarious would be doing here.
That's sad. If I had to make an assumption, I'd say these people find their life pointless and do their best to achieve fame before dying.
Oleander Ardens
03-11-2009, 20:50
His father was the head of a shooterguild. It seems that many victims had headwounds, the bastard had seemingly trained with a pistol. I prey for their families who lost loved members...
Banquo's Ghost
03-11-2009, 21:32
Errm... can someone explain why a school shooting and a horny old landlady topics have been mixed together... i am really missing whatever logic explains this action...
I have no idea. The irrelevant posts have been deleted.
On topic, I can only offer my deepest condolences to the families that have had to suffer such senseless tragedies in both countries. Words fail.
Reverend Joe
03-11-2009, 22:43
His father was the head of a shooterguild. It seems that many victims had headwounds, the bastard had seemingly trained with a pistol. I prey for their families who lost loved members...
Dude, **** guns. People like this wouldn't be stopped by a lack of guns; they would just build a few pipe-bombs and take out even more people.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
03-11-2009, 22:48
I thought Germany didn't allow personal gun ownership. Why didnt' that stop this tragedy?
Germany does allow personal gun ownership, but the last time something like this happened it was used to considerably tighten firearm laws. Which, of course, really helped. :rolleyes:
Honestly, you can see here precisely the argument that the anti-gun control crowd, including me, uses. Were firearms laws made insanely restrictive to stop something like this happening again? Yes. Did they actually stop it? No. So get rid of these insane firearms laws and for once send the autocrats in Berlin a message. I wish Germany had a Second Amendment.
:wall:
Pretty disgusting this, I always wonder about the motives and now that I think about it, the consequences. This could lead for example to more calls for censorship of games, not like games are important in the light of so many dead people. :shame:
Yes, the age old video game argument will arise as well - and will actually be seriously deliberated. I honestly and openly dislike the political class in this country. Husar, can you find anything on what the FDP thinks of this issue? I've been looking and I cannot, and it could well effect my vote.
LittleGrizzly
03-11-2009, 23:09
Germany does allow personal gun ownership, but the last time something like this happened it was used to considerably tighten firearm laws. Which, of course, really helped. :rolleyes:
Weren't the guns legally owned ?
My point being if ownership was illegal and assuming the parent followed the law the gun wouldn't have been there for the kid to grab. From there it depends on whether the kid grabbed the gun because it was easily available or whether the kid decided he wanted a gun and just happened to have easy access...
If it wasn't just convenience and he really had decided he wanted a gun then how easy would that be for this kid, and would he have the guts to try (potentially scary people) though seemingly being suicidal the last question could quite possibly have been a yes.
Would this kid really know how and where to get a gun, personally i really wouldn't have a clue. With guns being completely illegal you could hardly walk down the street asking people, would probably need some shady friends to know where to get guns. I know i could get most of the illegal drugs if i tried, but i have never even heard someone mention they know where to get illegal guns, and i have had some pretty shady acquaintances
Well I got a nice shiny AK47 for you, 275 euro, complete with case, with 50 plus you get a reflex sight along with perks. Guns are not hard to get, I could get you a bazooka or an RPG, not sure about nukes though.
LittleGrizzly
03-11-2009, 23:35
, 275 euro, with 50
Exchange rate!!
Yes, the age old video game argument will arise as well - and will actually be seriously deliberated. I honestly and openly dislike the political class in this country. Husar, can you find anything on what the FDP thinks of this issue? I've been looking and I cannot, and it could well effect my vote.
Nope, only thing I know is a certain bavarian guy from the CSU will want to ban games again. :rolleyes:
Also to update on the actual happenings, the newest I read is the guy shot 8 students in two classrooms, 4 in each, all in all he shot nine students and 3 teachers, then hijacked a car, drove 40km with the car owner amd then dumped him(alive) and the car and went into some industrial area or so.
There he shot three more people in and around a VW car selling place, one employee, one customer and apparently another person(or maybe this person was shot later in the gunfight, not sure here). When he came out the car owner of the car he had hijacked had already informed police so he injured two policemen in a gunfight and got shot in the leg himself, he then shot himself into the head, concluding this episode with 16 dead people total.
the reasons he had seem completely unclear, apparently he played Counterstrike(well, who apart from me doesn't?) but didn't really get into the game too much, he wasn't an introvert, invited people over because his parents had a party cellar etc. his friends cannot explain it, he had finished school, was currently learning a job and was supposed to take over his dad's company later so even i think from what i have read that he doesn't really seem to fit the typical social outcast profile that many other school shooters seem to fit into. :shrug:
I mean his life sounds even better than mine and I'm lightyears away from killing anybody. :sweatdrop:
I fail to understand what a link to Vicarious would be doing here.
Maybe because of the lyrics?
It's my kind of story etc.
Lord Winter
03-12-2009, 00:05
the reasons he had seem completely unclear, apparently he played Counterstrike(well, who apart from me doesn't?) but didn't really get into the game too much, he wasn't an introvert, invited people over because his parents had a party cellar etc. his friends cannot explain it, he had finished school, was currently learning a job and was supposed to take over his dad's company later so even i think from what i have read that he doesn't really seem to fit the typical social outcast profile that many other school shooters seem to fit into. :shrug:
I mean his life sounds even better than mine and I'm lightyears away from killing anybody. :sweatdrop:
More reasons to expect mental illness instead of some cultural break down.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
03-12-2009, 00:26
Weren't the guns legally owned ?
My point being if ownership was illegal and assuming the parent followed the law the gun wouldn't have been there for the kid to grab. From there it depends on whether the kid grabbed the gun because it was easily available or whether the kid decided he wanted a gun and just happened to have easy access...
If it wasn't just convenience and he really had decided he wanted a gun then how easy would that be for this kid, and would he have the guts to try (potentially scary people) though seemingly being suicidal the last question could quite possibly have been a yes.
Would this kid really know how and where to get a gun, personally i really wouldn't have a clue. With guns being completely illegal you could hardly walk down the street asking people, would probably need some shady friends to know where to get guns. I know i could get most of the illegal drugs if i tried, but i have never even heard someone mention they know where to get illegal guns, and i have had some pretty shady acquaintances
My answer is here:
Were firearms laws made insanely restrictive to stop something like this happening again? Yes. Did they actually stop it? No.
The laws are completely pointless, and some politicians want to tighten them again. :dizzy2:
LittleGrizzly
03-12-2009, 00:32
The laws are completely pointless, and some politicians want to tighten them again.
My questions basically constructed a point, which was if he didn't have the access to guns in his house* he would be less likely to have had a gun. Sure he could have gone in there with something homemade or a sword but it is fairly difficult to be as effective a killer without a gun...
*if the dad was law abiding and firearm law was tightened (as in no guns)
Evil_Maniac From Mars
03-12-2009, 01:00
My questions basically constructed a point, which was if he didn't have the access to guns in his house* he would be less likely to have had a gun. Sure he could have gone in there with something homemade or a sword but it is fairly difficult to be as effective a killer without a gun...
*if the dad was law abiding and firearm law was tightened (as in no guns)
So, we have two solutions. Ban firearms altogether (which may stop the occasional school shooting but will have no effect on crime), or to do what I propose, and not react. The former may win votes, but it is not a sensible solution.
KukriKhan
03-12-2009, 01:53
More (http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/11/alabama.shooting.rescue/) on the 'Bama shooter. 28, lives with Mom, shoots Mom & dog, then Grandma & Grandpa, Aunt and Uncle, a few other random folks, and drives to his former job for the finale.
No one returned fire, except police. Frankly, that's a little surprising to me, having lived awhile in the area.
Nevertheless, my sincerest condolences to the families, friends and towns affected by both incidents.
So now I'm watching some TV discussion (http://www.wdr.de/themen/global/webmedia/webtv/getwebtv.phtml?p=4&b=218) (in german) about it and they mention that he had no friends, quite the opposite of what I read in Stern online earlier. :dizzy2:
Just wanted to mention that because if it's true it invalidates parts of my last post.
Beefy187
03-12-2009, 03:38
We live in a mad world don't we..
Rest in peace those who are dead.
Major Robert Dump
03-12-2009, 11:05
He obviously needed to get laid, which reinforces my theory that sluts make the world go round.
So now I'm watching some TV discussion (http://www.wdr.de/themen/global/webmedia/webtv/getwebtv.phtml?p=4&b=218) (in german) about it and they mention that he had no friends, quite the opposite of what I read in Stern online earlier. :dizzy2:
Just wanted to mention that because if it's true it invalidates parts of my last post.
I love the fact that the police released a statement that one of the first things they did was to search his pc and they found "KILLERGAMES" (as a german, you might well known the impact of the word Killerspiele).
Looking forward to the debates on KILLERGAMES.
Louis VI the Fat
03-12-2009, 12:59
Bah. Guns, videogames. That's not important.
The (school) shooter did not kill kids, he killed girls. He singled them out - this is far more relevant than videogames to understand his motives. I meant it as a serious remark when I said he could've stayed at home to masturbate and get it out of his system. Or get himself a decent haircut at last instead of that World of Warcraft subculture ponytail and nerdy outfit.
Arrogant little boy couldn't stand the discrepancy between his own inflated self-image and the lack of female attention. At last, he got to impose himself on women, to dominate and control them, as he thinks he's entitled to. Too scared to pull one off a bicycle, too incompetent to get one to come over to his house and vandalize her there, his last resort to get women in a subordinate position was to shoot them.
[/amateur psychology]
I think violent videogames can pull an already unstable person over the edge, but indeed not relevant. He wrote a letter to his parents, apparently the little :daisy: was being picked on, and just couldn't go on like this. I heard he executed the girls with a neckshot, I cannot imagine how scared they must have been, only have german link and that upsets BG.
Kagemusha
03-12-2009, 15:44
My condolences to victims families at both Germany and Alabama and i hope the victims will rest in peace.:stwshame:
It seems that these kind of sick phenomenoms are here to stay. About the killers. I really dont understand these sad people who commit such acts. I hope they would have decency of shooting their selves, before attacking others. I think that if there wouldnt be glorification of this kind of acts among certain groups of people, these things would atleast happen lot more rare. I guess this is the 21st centurys version of 5 minutes of fame, when socially challenged kids go out guns blazing. Sickening.:stwshame:
Heh, the professor in the above video actually brings up an interesting point, there hasn't been such a thing in southern countries. He uses that to link thjis to the general openness of people in southern countries, they are more used and encouraged to show their feelings and not just eat them and store them until it all bursts out.
I think I can agree with that, I've been bullied myself, also thought about doing just that, but I also had a family that supported me, a mom who I knew I could always talk to about anything and I knew it wouldn't really solve anything anyway, apart from that i had no idea where to get a gun from either(no, I don't know any people who sell them illegally....). Well, restrospectively I almost feel like i was overreacting but at the time it really felt like a big deal etc and sadly, that's all that counts, it doesn't matter what everybody else thinks, it only matters what the bullied person thinks and that is that everybody else are just ********** who deserve to die. The solution is not to ban everything or ignore it, but to try to stop people from getting to the point where their subjective opinion is that the whole world hates them anyway and they have nothing to lose.
That may be hard to understand for people who never felt like this but that's exactly the problem, they are often the ones to laugh about the guy on the ground which makes him even more desperate.
That is a general statement, the fact that he only killed girls, well, I am inclined to agree with what Louis said and might add that girls are very capable of mental cruelties, though keep in mind he also killed a male student and some other males apparently, left the driver of the kidnapped car alive etc.
Generally I could see how he just snapped because of something I wouldn't want to make assumptions about at this point and from then his actions were rather surreal and maybe even random, in other words, he went nuts.
If anyone wants this to stop, they have to look at the countries where such things do not happen, europeans are cold blooded bastards, sometimes the prey takes up arms and shoots back...
I think it is because we are a generation raised by women, any sort aggression is a big no, we need to talk it out, but there is nothing bad about a good punch in the face. We are males, we hit eachother and walk away as friends.
LittleGrizzly
03-12-2009, 16:55
So, we have two solutions. Ban firearms altogether (which may stop the occasional school shooting but will have no effect on crime), or to do what I propose, and not react. The former may win votes, but it is not a sensible solution.
It seems sensible to me because (in your words)
which may stop the occasional school shooting
It stop people like me and Husar potentially shooting up a school, i severly doubt i would have even if i had easy access to guns, but in my darkest moments during my teenage school life that easily accessible gun could have been the factor that tipped me over the edge, probably not but there are people who had an even worse school life than me where a gun could have been the decisive factor...
I would have been more likely to just kill myself if it came down to it, but if your going to kill yourself i have always thought you may as well take down the people that put you there*
*that is assuming they deserve it, my boss laying me off through no fault of his own or for my bad work is completely reasonable... someone making my life hell for thier entertainment is not..
Absolutely, the dad is now being investigated because he didn't properly lock his gun away, it was apparently lying around in the bedroom...
Gun ownership is like communism, it only works when everybody is responsible and sticks to the rules anyway and if that were the case the system wouldn't be necessary. :dizzy2: ~;)
I think it is because we are a generation raised by women, any sort aggression is a big no, we need to talk it out, but there is nothing bad about a good punch in the face. We are males, we hit eachother and walk away as friends.
...and this is how I met Tyler Durden.
...and this is how I met Tyler Durden.
remember the first rule....
If anyone is still interested, looks like this time the debate about bullying was a bit early, heard some minister on the radio and she said she didn't know where people got that from because for all she knows the guy wasn't being bullied.
Well, maybe he was just nuts, I guess nobody really knows at this point.
Adrian II
03-13-2009, 02:11
I think it is because we are a generation raised by women, any sort aggression is a big no, we need to talk it out, but there is nothing bad about a good punch in the face. We are males, we hit eachother and walk away as friends.All generations were raised by women. Even mythical Hercules who killed, raped or plundered his way across half the ancient world had a loving mom. I fully agree with you that we shouldn't raise boys on so-called feminine values, but the fact that we do so presently provides no explanation for these terrible incidents.
The logic behind them is that the perpetrators do not value their own lives and take their own demise into account when they act, as was already pointed out above. If you don't value your own life, why should you value that of others?
Kids can be very lonely even in affluent, loving families. Most take well to such inner or outer solitude, but some develop violent fantasies or revenge and domination, particularly if these are being fed by adults who make them feel powerless, obsolete or unwanted.
If these fantasies are coupled with sexual lust during puberty, killing becomes, in their fantasies, an act of quasi-sexual fulfillment. Sexual 'slights' such as the ones this young fellow apparently perceived would only reinforce his lust for the act.
I didn't work this out for myself - it is the view of a brilliant Austrian detective and criminal 'profiler' named Thomas Müller, author of Bestie Mensch ('The Human Animal') and Gierige Bestie ('The Avid Animal').
I dunno, but I think a complete lack of violence leads to such excesses such as this. It's either doing nothing or going all the way. Let kids fight, what is so wrong about it, an exchange of a few punches nobody dies, nobody gets really hurt. When I spawn offspring I'll tell them to grab a piece of wood and wrap it around the heads of the people picking on them. But that is so unacceptable nowadays.
LittleGrizzly
03-13-2009, 03:52
Im not sure about weapon blows to the head but i for one will certainly encourage my kid to go wild with anger and hurt anyone who try's that kind of crap on him...
Adrian II
03-13-2009, 03:57
I dunno, but I think a complete lack of violence leads to such excesses such as this. It's either doing nothing or going all the way. Let kids fight, what is so wrong about it, an exchange of a few punches nobody dies, nobody gets really hurt. When I spawn offspring I'll tell them to grab a piece of wood and wrap it around the heads of the people picking on them. But that is so unacceptable nowadays.I have two kids, I taught them exactly what you said (and what we were told when we were young) and they are turning out wonderful, happy, well-mannered and nobody's fool. But this has nothing to do with the topic. It's a funny thing that almost nobody ever reacts when you refer to a smart, expert profiler's view such as Müllers. It implies that maybe we could do at least something to avoid some, even if not all, of these horrible incidents. How do you vet kids for dangerous violent fantasies? Most kids have violent fantasies in some form and they turn out fine regardless. And supposing that you could filter out such kids, how do you treat them? Give them treatments that isolate them even more and feed their fantasies? It's a tough one. I know you know and like A Clockwork Orange, Frag, so you should understand the paradox here, which is that anti-violent treatment could actually increase the violence in a kid's life in some way or other.
Most kids have violent fantasies in some form and they turn out fine regardless. And supposing that you could filter out such kids, how do you treat them? Give them treatments that isolate them even more and feed their fantasies? It's a tough one.
Maybe violent games are a factor then here. No SM sex for the young. (and before you ask no I am not that violent)
Evil_Maniac From Mars
03-13-2009, 05:50
Seems that the majority of Die Welt readers agree with me about expanding gun control not helping the situation at all.
Banquo's Ghost
03-13-2009, 08:56
It's a funny thing that almost nobody ever reacts when you refer to a smart, expert profiler's view such as Müllers. It implies that maybe we could do at least something to avoid some, even if not all, of these horrible incidents. How do you vet kids for dangerous violent fantasies? Most kids have violent fantasies in some form and they turn out fine regardless. And supposing that you could filter out such kids, how do you treat them? Give them treatments that isolate them even more and feed their fantasies? It's a tough one. I know you know and like A Clockwork Orange, Frag, so you should understand the paradox here, which is that anti-violent treatment could actually increase the violence in a kid's life in some way or other.
My own view is that we need to implement military national service across Western countries. This should be focussed on discipline, service and hard physical experience. It would provide a environment for the exercise of violence and the techniques for its control. This should be for three years minimum, from ages 16 to 19. There should be few exceptions and no entitlement to state benefits like university until completed.
Your profiler's view seems to me to be sound. Many young men these days do seem to suffer from loneliness and a sense of abstraction from society. This is not helped by a significant confusion as to what actually makes a man in the 21st century. What can a youngster do these days to earn society's respect? Teenage males have always undergone this confusion as to their role in society, but it is exacerbated by the kind of "feminisation" that Fragony touched on. I would also argue that the easy consumer society we have developed is feminised - man is a provider, and that is undermined by just whipping out a credit card with no thought as to consequence.
I submit that service life, properly handled and implemented (many modern countries with national service have it as a kind of extended holiday camp, easily avoided or endured) would shape the young into positive men, confident of their role. There is a great deal of peace-keeping to be done in the world, so once trained, they could be deployed in all sorts of challenging environments. They would also learn to handle firearms with respect and understanding as to their impact and power. One does not need an empire for the young to enjoy the benefits of international service.
A man needs challenges (not necessarily violence) that gives him a sense of who he is, who he can be, and allow him to feel he has earned respect.
In addition (and I do not jest here) there should be military brothels available so they get laid early. The "mystery" of sex ensnares the young mind for far too long; nowadays enflamed by ubiquitous pornographic imagery that implies the nirvana is easily obtainable for all but the viewer. Let them get it out of their system in an impersonal, yet sympathetic and non-pressured environment. Then perhaps, they can move on to understand that love (not so easily purchased) and its responsibilities and joys are the true goal of a grown man.
Strike For The South
03-13-2009, 09:18
Football. Thats what these boys need. Bring them to Texaas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzyp4qOW0F0)
I dunno, but I think a complete lack of violence leads to such excesses such as this. It's either doing nothing or going all the way. Let kids fight, what is so wrong about it, an exchange of a few punches nobody dies, nobody gets really hurt. When I spawn offspring I'll tell them to grab a piece of wood and wrap it around the heads of the people picking on them. But that is so unacceptable nowadays.
In a civilized societey, isn't sport supposed to help maintain a balanced agression level?
Because I'm sceptic how your argument would maintain in environment with lower social standards where kids get bullied and beaten up (aka Chavs).
Maybe violent games are a factor then here.
Yeah, just like property taxes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster) :rolleyes:
My answer is here:
The laws are completely pointless, and some politicians want to tighten them again. :dizzy2:
You are completely wrong and the logic is flawed. Just because the tightened laws did not stop this shooting, it does not mean it has not stopped or reduced any shootings. I think you can use your common sense - and the great example of the US, compared to say, er.... Germany - to realise that having less guns and less avaliability to guns means less gun related deaths and shootings. To reduce gun laws after this tragedy would be the ultimate height of stupidity. Guns. Should. Be. Banned.
In a civilized societey, isn't sport supposed to help maintain a balanced agression level?
Because I'm sceptic how your argument would maintain in environment with lower social standards where kids get bullied and beaten up (aka Chavs).
It's normal that kids get bullied and beaten up, there is such a thing as being overly protective. I am not a parent mind you, maybe I would think differently if it was my own kid but I doubt it. These things don't change, the office is just as cruel a place. What if there is no way out? You are supposed to solve it verbally, but there is a reason you are being picked on, you can't. Solving it semi-violently, a fight after school, will get you into trouble you are supposed to be above that. What to do? You are already confused because of your hormones kicking in. Things like sexual desire and violence shouldn't be surpressed, kids messing around or beating eachother up is perfectly innocent.
Adrian II
03-13-2009, 12:39
I see. We're back to blaming the usual suspects: guns, girls and gaming. Much easier then child psychology, isn't it.
Müller writes somewhere that in the course of his career he always encountered such resistance; people are prepared to hear him out when they need him to solve a case, but they don't want to listen when he tells them how the case could arise in the first place. His unique approach to profiling, which departs not from psychology but from observational techniques and has allowed him to achieve remarkable results, is always welcome after the fact, almost never prior to it.
I must say I am particularly disappointed in Banquo's Ghost's view that boys aged 16-19 should be raised in a military atmosphere and that their educational opportunities should be made dependent on it. It reeks of fascism. There are many reasons why his approach is wrong, but suffice it to say that it does not prevent the behaviour we are discussing. Jeffrey Dahmer or Timothy McVeigh are prime examples of kids whose military service - if anything - gave them more inspiration and/or practical expertise to carry out their horrendous acts.
Edit
Dang it, Fragony, quit being so sensible. Your views on A Clockwork Orange already impressed me to the point where I remember them after two years or so. And yes, the office sometimes is just as cruel and unforgiving a place as the playground. That's exactly what Müller might say, too.
We have to stop meeting in this way.
(what were my views of the Clockwork Orange, you just tickled my vanity)
KukriKhan
03-13-2009, 13:42
I must say I am particularly disappointed in Banquo's Ghost's view that boys aged 16-19 should be raised in a military atmosphere and that their educational opportunities should be made dependent on it. It reeks of fascism. There are many reasons why his approach is wrong, but suffice it to say that it does not prevent the behaviour we are discussing. Jeffrey Dahmer or Timothy McVeigh are prime examples of kids whose military service - if anything - gave them more inspiration and/or practical expertise to carry out their horrendous acts.
Forty years ago (at age 18), I personally fought Banquo's Ghost's proposal tooth-and-nail, not for the fascistic aspects (those don't typically frighten americans as much as they do europeans, who apparently fear a slippery-slope slide back to the 30's; I mean that kindly), but for the involuntary servitude aspects.
Tying such national service to educational opportunities unobtainable otherwise lessens my opposition. And my own military experience, and observations, and time as a Dad, tells me that BG is actually spot-on correct. The family unit can (and must) do much to impart the qualities of good citizenship. But, the practical application of those qualities, the proof of their need, comes about best in the company of other young men, strictly (militarily, if you will) supervised by older men who have "been there, done that". The goal (among others) being: learning to no longer fear one's own or others' anger, fear, indecision, sadness, disappointment, rejection, violence - but instead, to recognize that stuff, focus it, and USE it to accomplish a mission satisfying to the individual man, and his society.
Sport can go a long way in accomplishing this, as well, but often misses the mark in its search for superstar players. The levening effect of military drudgery, punctuated by periods of intense danger, works better, in my opinion.
Dahmer and McVeigh were inadequately-trained soldiers. They 'got' the techniques, but not the background. I blame their sergeants.
Louis VI the Fat
03-13-2009, 14:03
My own view is that we need to implement military national service across Western countries. This should be focussed on discipline, service and hard physical experience. Germany has compulsory military service for men. Germany has the most school shootings in Europe.
(Although school shootings still occur so infrequently that the statistical relevance is debatable)
We're back to blaming the usual suspects: guns, girls and gaming. Much easier than child psychology, isn't it.
Müller writes somewhere that in the course of his career he always encountered such resistance I shall blissfully ignore Müller and move on to guns, girls and gaming. ~;p
Girls are important. I do not think the motivation of this shooter can ever be understood without bearing in mind that eight of the nine students and all three of the teachers he shot dead were female.
Guns are important too. Gun culture kills. I do not mean the availability or unavailability of guns itself. I mean gun culture at large. I myself would never go on a shooter spree like this. I could see myself do a lot of things, like crushing the skull of the next person to skip the line in front of me. But I would not put on a commando costume and enter a public building for a shooting spray. Simply, because I wouldn't - literally - want be caught dead looking like an imbecile like that. To me, he looks as ridiculous as a guy with lots of tattoos and a sleevless shirt exposing his beefed up biceps. Or as ridiculous as a man in a colonel uniform, a moustache, shining boots and reflexing sunglasses.
All three of these types look powerful, manly, 'in control' to some, in varying (sub)cultures. Ridiculous to others. In gun culture, the first type looks very impressive, cool, assertive. If the culture dissapears, so too do these shootings.
Well, I don't have children yet, but I wouldn't be too enthusiastic about seeing my children (re-?)educated by an organisation that is in the end controlled by the morons that are called politicians.
EDIT: intended as response to Kukri and Banquo.
I don't think it would change anything, just another system in which some can't cope. Any attempt at uniformity is an exercise in futility imho. Just let things be even if it's unpleasant we aren't equals. Where do these things happen; in society's with high expectations of how someone should behave.
(@Kukri)
KukriKhan
03-13-2009, 14:30
Andres and Fragony: I take your points. A highly-trained, well-motivated Cadre of NCO's would be an absolute necessity for such a plan. So, yes: Poorly-handled or -staffed, it would do more harm than good.
Adrian II
03-13-2009, 14:39
Where do these things happen; in society's with high expectations of how someone should behave.Sigh. Now you're doing it again. Why are you less perceptive on certain other subjects, when you have such a great capacity for observation as shown above? It's not the whole story, but it is part of it. Criminal forms of revenge (be it in the shape of violence, blackmail, extortion or fraud) often reflect the expectations of the environment where they take place. Bankers don't go on shooting sprees like postal workers. Bankers defraud or blackmail their bosses.
As to shootings and mass murderers. We all know (or should, if we are able to read papers) that these incidents occur in many countries with different traditions. Militaristic or not, 'gun culture' or no 'gun culture', rigid Japanese-style education or loose Dutch-style education, it doesn't matter.
As I tried to explain in some detail there may be a common denominator in these cases. But it does not correspond with most peoples' pet peeves, so it is often 'blissfully' ignored. That doesn't surprise me and shall blissfully leave this thread. Hey, it's only teh Internets.
Why are you less perceptive on certain other subjects
I take compliments in whatever form :beam:
As I tried to explain in some detail there may be a common denominator in these cases. But it does not correspond with most peoples' pet peeves, so it is often 'blissfully' ignored. That doesn't surprise me and shall blissfully leave this thread. Hey, it's only teh Internets.
Please, don't leave. In fact, this psychology thing fascinates me.
I wonder, how many of those school shootings are comitted by clear psychopaths and how many by the depressed/suicidal/hot headed teenager type? Or is Müllers' book more something general on child psychology and not specifically oriented to mass murdering teenagers?
Also, are such things evitable according to him (and I'm not talking about the usual "ban guns/allow more guns/ban violent computer games (:wall:)/turn schools into impenetrable forts"-nonsense solutions)?
Are their specific signs, something a parent/teacher can see?
Louis VI the Fat
03-13-2009, 15:11
As I tried to explain in some detail there may be a common denominator in these cases. But it does not correspond with most peoples' pet peeves, so it is often 'blissfully' ignored. That doesn't surprise me and I shall blissfully leave this thread. Hey, it's only teh Internets. Oh, come on. May I remind you that you name non-Müller explanations 'pet peeves' and 'the usual suspects' for those who can't understand child psychology?
Müller sounds very interesting. I have not read him and am probably not going to be able do so before this thread has run its course. So I post about what I know, and what I think is relevant: amateur psychology and sociological phenomena. Others post about other things.
School and other shootings do not have a single explanatory scheme. There are many relevant angles to this story. We can't ignore Müller, Müller can't ignore other angles. You got the tongue (= ~;p) for brushing aside not just that what disagrees with Müller, but for brushing aside everything that isn't Müller. After which I resumed my, erm...feministic/haircut/gun culture explanation scheme. ~;)
Your profiler's view seems to me to be sound. Many young men these days do seem to suffer from loneliness and a sense of abstraction from society. This is not helped by a significant confusion as to what actually makes a man in the 21st century. What can a youngster do these days to earn society's respect? Teenage males have always undergone this confusion as to their role in society, but it is exacerbated by the kind of "feminisation" that Fragony touched on. I would also argue that the easy consumer society we have developed is feminised - man is a provider, and that is undermined by just whipping out a credit card with no thought as to consequence.
Not like I feel I'm a woman trapped in a man's body but I do often feel like I cannot come up to the standards of most men. Somehow i seem natural very lazy and no matter how often I managed to break out of this, I always fall back into this lazyness. It's like I need someone to constantly kick me in the behind to make me keep going in many situations. I'm not very lazy at work where I can see the monetary benefits and feel obliged to do what I'm paid for, even if just because of empathy for my very nice boss. But once it gets to things like learning for university I slide back into this neverending lazyness. :shrug:
It doesn't help that we had company bosses at highschool telling us about their super-high hiring standards which I feel I will never be able to meet. My lack of ability for physical labour makes lower jobs seem inaccessible as well so where exactly am I supposed to see myself in the future? I really don't know and it causes a fear in me that almost startles me which makes things even worse of course. Not like I want to be violent but since you mentioned it I wanted to get that out I guess.
I don't know where my lazyness comes from, it was always there I think but more importantly I don't know how to get rid of it. Sometimes I think maybe I should have tried to get into the army, that might have helped. Or I might have become lazy again afterwards. :shrug:
Evil_Maniac From Mars
03-13-2009, 18:30
You are completely wrong and the logic is flawed. Just because the tightened laws did not stop this shooting, it does not mean it has not stopped or reduced any shootings. I think you can use your common sense - and the great example of the US, compared to say, er.... Germany - to realise that having less guns and less avaliability to guns means less gun related deaths and shootings. To reduce gun laws after this tragedy would be the ultimate height of stupidity.
:inquisitive:
Look at some other countries besides the US. There really isn't any correlation. Points three and six especially. (http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=4706)
Germany has compulsory military service for men. Germany has the most school shootings in Europe.
(Although school shootings still occur so infrequently that the statistical relevance is debatable)
Now, I'm not sure if I'm for or against conscription, and I can't say I pay much attention to school shootings (just the resulting debates on gun control), but aren't most of those who shoot up schools under the usual ages of mandatory conscription?
KukriKhan
03-13-2009, 20:52
Not like I feel I'm a woman trapped in a man's body but I do often feel like I cannot come up to the standards of most men. Somehow i seem natural very lazy...
I wish this would help, but I guess it won't: It is normal to feel that way in late teens/early twenties. Sure, lotsa guys bluster through that time, but they're bluffing: you're old enough to see and recognize the (seems like: enormous) challenges and responsibilities of man-hood, and young enough to remember carefree childhood, that you now wish you'd enjoyed more - since the future looks like a whole buncha hard work that maybe you're not confident you can do.
Cheer up. Listen to Uncle Kukri, who has been through it himself, and brought several other young men through it too: There's really only 2 things you have to get good at:
1) Protecting
2) Providing
Everything else, your instincts, your abilities (that you don't even know you have, yet) are there so that you can do those two things. Protect and Provide. It is the boiled-down basic job description of Husband, Father, Brother, Leader, Man. You may never be Husband, or Father or Leader, but you already are: Man. And you have no idea what Fate will throw at you in the future for a life-job.
Now is the time for pactice; Work on the P & P of Husar, as though he were another (little bit younger) person than you. Some day, maybe soon, you'll have to protect and provide for another, or maybe many others. And you'll know what to do.
HoreTore
03-13-2009, 21:49
Now, I'm not sure if I'm for or against conscription, and I can't say I pay much attention to school shootings (just the resulting debates on gun control), but aren't most of those who shoot up schools under the usual ages of mandatory conscription?
We have conscription here too. I can't say I wanted to go to a school and shoot a bunch of people after my army year. Now, the army headquarters on the other hand........
A year in a frozen hellhole in the middle of nowhere, 20.000km from women, with absolutely nothing to do except counting the days to your next leave and day-dream about banging your girlfriend... Someone has got to pay for that.
*the thread hijacker will now wander off*
Louis VI the Fat
03-18-2009, 13:27
Hey, it's only teh Internets.Upon reflection, I think I was most ungracious to you. :embarassed:
I did read your posts about Müller with interest. My apologies for my lack of grace and my lack of acknowledgement. What I meant, was that my interest lies not so much with profiling the character traits of these killers, however interesting or necessary for prevention, but with the nature and origin of these traits themselves.
On the upside, I have read up on Müller a bit and am now an expert on him. Here is Müller (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DBqE--j_tE) - if only every German would listen to him, there'd be no more shootings. :2thumbsup:
Okay, okay, sorry 'bout the video. I am simply clinically incapable of engaging in a serious debate for more than five minutes or three sentences.
I do, of course, have a serious question. I would say that Müller excells in profiling after the fact. I think he could give a great psychological report on this shooter simnply from his acts and the nature of them.
But can he give an accurate description before the shooting has occurred? Statistics and criminal profiling go a long way towards identifying possible suspects. But will it ever be so refined as to narrow it down to a workable set of 'alarm bells'?
edyzmedieval
03-18-2009, 13:57
Well I got a nice shiny AK47 for you, 275 euro, complete with case, with 50 plus you get a reflex sight along with perks. Guns are not hard to get, I could get you a bazooka or an RPG, not sure about nukes though.
275 euros for a AK47? :shocked2:
No wonder we have these shootings when weapons are dirt cheap!
Still, it's incredibly sad what's going on. I just hope there won't be any shootings in the school I am currently in and in the university I will attend later on.
HoreTore
03-19-2009, 12:05
275 euros for a AK47? :shocked2:
No wonder we have these shootings when weapons are dirt cheap!
Still, it's incredibly sad what's going on. I just hope there won't be any shootings in the school I am currently in and in the university I will attend later on.
If you worry about such things, I recommend that you buy lottery tickets.
And stop driving.
If you worry about such things, I recommend that you buy lottery tickets.
And stop driving.
You forgot mentioning to stop being near cars in general.
Crazed Rabbit
03-19-2009, 21:29
One aspect of these things that seems to be important is the media attention given to these killers after the fact.
It provides an opportunity for the violent people who are feeling oppressed to gain fame. I believe if there were only slight coverage of the killer, such disturbed people would have less motivation for their acts. They can sieze a platform to have all their grievances aired, talked about and discussed. If they are bullied or slighted, they can make everyone regret that, make them think they shouldn't have bothered them.
So I think one problem is the intense media coverage given to these killers. It provides a chance for the mentally unstable to grab the spotlight.
As for guns; I don't wish to retred old ground and debate gun control. I'd rather reflect on the nature of gun culture and the like. It seems, for all these kids that use guns, there are not many raised by parents who taught them how to use guns. So instead of guidance from their parents they substitute whatever pop culture teaches them about guns.
The gun culture of America is likely different from what most people see it as. I view it as the culture of people who own guns in the US. It is not the same representation we get from the media of a bunch of redneck yokels drinking beer. It is one of responsibility, of people from all walks of life. (http://www.armedamerica.org/)
But if kids aren't taught how to use guns, using them responsibly as a tool, then they must find some other source of information. Enter the media - Hollywood glamorizing guns in myriad number of ways, the news showing these killers getting famous just because they used a gun, which becomes a source of power over others instead of a tool to be used responsibly.
As an analogy, think of what we western folks, who grew up with cars, think of them compared to some third world child who's only seen them used in hollywood high speed chases, or by bank robbers or heads of state.
And Adrian, please continue to share the fascinating insights of Mr. Muller.
CR
Meneldil
03-19-2009, 21:53
Holy Crap. First time I ever agree with CR.
As in, I also think fame is an important factor. Pretty sure these people would just commit suicide quietly or carry the burden of their meaningless life without causing trouble if it weren't for the instant celebrity status they achieve by killing a dozen people.
But then, on the other hand, I think it's kind of the media's role to speak about it.
Crazed Rabbit
03-19-2009, 22:05
I think it can be reported without the intense scrutiny of the lives of the killers that currently happens. What should be reported are the thoughts of people like Mr. Muller. We shouldn't go over the lives of the killers to try and find out and report to the nation what injustice might have set them off. It is like giving the killers a megaphone to air their grievances. But this megaphone they must kill to use.
CR
Rubbish.
I mean, generally you might have a point, but apparentley not so in this case.
I only found this german article (http://www.stern.de/panorama/:%0A%09%09Tim-Kretschmers-Geisel-Auf-Irrfahrt-Killer/658239.html) but it's basically about the things the hostage said, the man who's car the killer kidnapped.
He jumped into the backseat, held the gun at the hostage's head and told him to drive, played around with ammunition in his other hand and they also talked a bit.
At some point the killer asked "do you think we can find another school?", the hostage ignored this and changed topic.
Later the hostage asked him "Why are you doing this ****?" and the answer was: "For fun, because it's fun!"..... :wall:
Of course one may not believe the hostage everything but I don't see why he would be lying about such things.
Rhyfelwyr
03-21-2009, 00:29
I can see where Baquo is coming from with his idea. When I reflect on my teens, I can see there were many problems. I lived in my room, got isolated from my friends, never got any fresh air, probably didn't move above walking pace for months at a time, generally had poor health and everyone kept telling me how pale and gaunt I looked. In some ways these problems were because I wasn't great with people, although to be honest I wasn't that bad at first, mainly it was because my Mum didn't like me leaving the house (she had problems with stress). And in these conditions, I think its fair enough to say my mental health followed to an extent, although I never got anything diagnosed, because my parents think mental problems don't exist.
Now when I look back, the best thing that could have happened for me would have been for me hauled out an put on compulsory military service. I would have got exercise, I would have become healthier, eaten better, felt a ton better. Perhaps even more importantly, it would have forced me to deal more with people, I would have made friends, I would have felt like I was doing something useful. Generally I would have felt a lot better. Now, I'm not suggesting I would ever have went on a shooting spree, the idea seems as ridiculous as it does sick, but I get the feeling some of these school shooters are just more extreme examples of what I was like. Through a form of military service, people would:
1. Feel they are included in society
2. Feel they have a useful role in society
3. Feel that they serve society and society serves them
If people knew these 3 things, who would ever go on a shooting spree? The only thing that could cause it would be a chemical imbalance in the brain, at least it would eliminate the environment-induced problems.
Generally things are better for me now, and when I look back I think "if only these things could have happened sooner!".
PS: As you may imagine, I wasn't so keen on the military brothel idea. Replace it with God-fearing Puritanism and there you go. :beam:
Yes, many run amok because of social problems but did I already mention this guy here was nuts?
I don't know whether nuts is genetic like gay or whether it is ideologic like terrorist but the guy he kidnapped did not get the impression that mister Kretschmer was particularly unhappy about certain people, he just thought shooting people is dfun and would have shot up another random school as well, doesn't sound like his anger was inspired by anyone particular.
Furthermore he was supposedly undergoing psychiatric treatment before for being nuts, which the parents denied though, and he shot up his old school a while after leaving it and quite frankly I don't think old things can tip the balance after you left them behind already unless you're nuts.
Which makes me conclude that he was just nuts, as unfortunate as that may be for him and his victims.
For reference, Hitler was also nuts and I wouldn't say he was a social outcast considering he got the votes of more than half the german nation to lead them, not like they're comparable in any other way but sometimes people are just nuts and the circumstances just support this, not cause it, IMO.
KukriKhan
03-21-2009, 13:09
Good points, Husar: sometimes 'nuts' is just 'nuts', and there is little anyone can do to make them not-nuts. Spotting that fact before the nuts guy/girl ACTS nuts, is the hard part.
We all act a little nutty sometimes. We can't lock each other up everytime that happens. So we've gotta either find a way to ID the truly, irredeemably nuts guys and lock them away ahead of time,
or deal with their craziness as it pops up (which I guess is where we are now).
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