Slave Trade

[antisocialmunky]

Is there a slave trade? As far as I can tell there is no slave trade. This makes me sad because I wanted to be a total bastard to the natives. Though I understand why CA would remove that sort of thing. :no:

[joe4iz]

Too much PC for the game....I know there were people who complained that slaves were in MTW2, which I thought was lame. It was a part of history.

[Belid Hagen]

no, there is no slave trade in the game since CA want to actually sell games.

[Fondor_Yards]

no, there is no slave trade in the game since CA want to actually sell games.

Slaves were in RTW and M2TW and you could trade them, those sold pretty well or so I've been told.

[MadKow]

There are, but they are showing in the records as ivory, to avoid taxes.

[Dayve]

Slaves were in RTW and M2TW and you could trade them, those sold pretty well or so I've been told.

You were mostly enslaving white people in those games, and political correctness is never an issue regarding the slavery of white people, only blacks.

[A Very Super Market]

Yes, with the over-the-top amounts of ivory generated in AFRICA, you could (eventually) change a few files around and just call them slaves.

[Dayve]

Or change some of the nodes to slavery ones, if that will be possible. Taking it out was cowardly in my opinion, even though i'll agree it was a sensible thing for them to do to avoid law suits. It's just a victory for the white guilt crowd, who are usually American blacks, who like to make white people feel guilty about the actions of their European ancestors, which is silly and nonsensical.

[antisocialmunky]

Hopefully we can mod in the slave trade and those slave trading kingdoms. Not sure how they'll do it in future mods that inevitably will expand Africa since 'slave plantations' don't make sense to model the West African Kingdoms enslaving each other. Maybe making slaver camps an option instead.

[BeeSting]

no, there is no slave trade in the game since CA want to actually sell games.

I don't think having slaves in the game will impact their sales; bugs, however will.

[ZombieFriedNuts]

I know you can abolish slavery when you get near the bottom of the social research but apparently it only gives you prestige.

[Kobal2fr]

There are, but they are showing in the records as ivory, to avoid taxes.

I see what you did there (and joke aside, you may well be onto something, too)

[Subotan]

Slaves were in RTW and M2TW and you could trade them, those sold pretty well or so I've been told.

It's a pity. Slavery happened all over the world, yet now people think Slaves = Black People. Patronising or what?

[antisocialmunky]

No one else makes a racket about it that much anymore:-p.

[pevergreen]

Slavery is in the game, however it is only represented on certain trade screens, it isnt a visible thing anymore. When you abolish it, expect to take a economical drop.

[crpcarrot]

wow
either you guys are totally ignorant or i dont even have the words

i suggest you read up on what slavery was like and what the slaves had to suffer. if you cant read watch Roots, Amistad etc

it may be somehitng that did happen in history that doesnt mean it need to be included in a game. what next ... concentration camps in world war 2 games??????

this thread should be deleted

[Darth Venom]

wow
either you guys are totally ignorant or i dont even have the words

i suggest you read up on what slavery was like and what the slaves had to suffer. if you cant read watch Roots, Amistad etc

it may be somehitng that did happen in history that doesnt mean it need to be included in a game. what next ... concentration camps in world war 2 games??????

this thread should be deleted

So exterminating a 100.000 population city with the Mongols with nica sounds to add to the experience is OK to have in a game but slavery isn't? :dizzy2:
The only reason it's not in is PC, and that just isn't right imho.

[crazyviking03]

White slavery was also a huge economic issue during this time period in North Africa. Though not on as huge a scale as the West African slave trade, during this time period most piracy carried out by Muslim corsairs was aimed at capturing slaves.

This issue is something thats will always happen when you make a game (or movie, or any kind of media) about something that is either still part of living memory or a persistant issue in society. Not that I agree, but slavery is not in this game for the same reasons that we dont get ww2 games from the German or Japanese perspective and why we rarely get anything from the Confederate point of view that isnt some washed out story about a dumb poor farm boy. People have far too much time on their hands, and many choose to spend that time gettign offended by things that they did not experience. So those who make games, movies, tv specials etc. live in fear of backlash from the ingnorant and sensational masses (of every shade and color, from every corner of the Western World) who blow a gasket anytime something strays out of the Slavery=black africans only/GermansandJapanese are all Evil/the South is stupid and racist/the british were evil thats why we gloriously rebeled template.

[Alsn]

Just because they could've included it in the game doesn't mean they had to make it all butterflies and roses.

Civilization IV is a game where slavery is included(and is one of the best labour civics) and it has sold more than 3 million copies. Excluding something as prominent as slavery in a game which tries to be historically accurate is quite silly to me.

Nothing is stopping them from making it be as horrible as it really was in the game or making revolutions happen because of it(which would be quite a cool feature imho).

Edit: Also, not to invoke Godwin or anything but had this been about WW2 people would've been calling out CA as holocaust deniers but when it's about slavery it's completely fine to just close your eyes and pretend it never happened.

[fenir]

wow
either you guys are totally ignorant or i dont even have the words

i suggest you read up on what slavery was like and what the slaves had to suffer. if you cant read watch Roots, Amistad etc

it may be somehitng that did happen in history that doesnt mean it need to be included in a game. what next ... concentration camps in world war 2 games??????

this thread should be deleted


WOW,

A few things, we where not there!

And we like to play historical.
And there have been more white slaves than blacks in europe, traded for alot longer too.
WHite slavery still exists today, in africa and the Middle east. I would hope, we aren't part of that either.

Slavery is a fact of everyones past. No need to hided like a coward from it imho. And in some instances it was legal protection from debts. A bonded person. Slavery.
Admittedly, by my own values it is disgusting. But, i temper that with knowledge of different time, different values.

And slavery is not all bad. Some where good, some where bad. And like today, they all push the bad.
We have all seen the media and the bleeding wimps, push the worst excess.
In stead of telling the truth and saying, oh this happened, but mostly was all good. That is not saying it was. I am just pushing a point.

And i don't bear the shame of it, because i didn't do it. In my time such things are consider bad. (Though i have to admit, having someone do the house chores would be nice.)

ANd i certainly cannot judge someone from over 100 years ago because i disagreee with them, to tell them, you are wrong. Different time, different place, I was not born.
So I am not so arogrant, as to apply my vaules to a time when EVERYONE did it.


Now where do you get off judging yesterdays vaules by your rules today. How Socialist. I guess because we disagree, you will have us all shot?

Please save the crying for someone that cares. Because we just want to play a game based on history.
We leave the guilt game and blame of politicians where it belongs. In the toilet.




i suggest you read up on what slavery was like and what the slaves had to suffer.
I really dont care. Lots of people suffered. Perhaps in stead of just crying over your colour coded Slavery, you could actually read some history into the laws that protected slaves, in nearly every country. And the penalties if they where violated?
Including, The Bible, and the Qur'an.
You can go back to Greece 4000 years ago and their laws, all the way to 19th Century Europe.
Also, in many cases, free people suffered more than slaves. Perhaps read up on that?

So please, if you need to be indignate, please show it for all, and not you choosen group.


Sincerely


fenir

[pevergreen]

None of the mods seem to be on right now, so I'm here.

This discussion has gone too far for the realm of Parliament. If you wish to continue talking about slavery, please create a thread in the Backroom, where these discussions belong and are argued properly.

CA have stated they did not wish for slavery to be graphically displayed. It is their choice, but it still in game, just not featured heavily.

If you do not have access to the Backroom, please request it if you wish to continue discussing this. If you do not know how to, send a Private Message to me and I will organise it.

Thank you. :bow:

[antisocialmunky]

I started this thread because I didn't like that they tidied that part of history up but I realise its their choice and that one of the realism mods that will eventually come out will include the more grimy parts of the century like disease, slavery, and extermination/deportation of native peoples whether intentional or unintentional. Hopefully in the end you will also be able to play the good guys and forcibly stop the slave trade. Its not game breaking or anything. But at any rate lock it if you wish.

[0rly?]

also i want to be able to press-gang people into my army, neglect to pay them the wages i owe them and allow some of them to die of attrition in a climate they were ill prepared for HELL YEA CRIMEA!!

[crpcarrot]

@ fenir

get a grip dude stop assuming you know who i am or what my values are go have a beer or something

i am not a socialist and as far as i know socialist dont shoot people who disagree with them but i know some capitalists who do.

i didnt mention any particluar group so i want talking about one group

everybody knows what slavery was predominant in this time period and that whatever time period you lived in there is no justification for what happened.

[JeromeBaker]

WOW,


WHite slavery still exists today, in africa and the Middle east.

Hey Fenir, just curious, when you mention that white slavery still exists, what are you refering to? I am making an assumption that you are refering to a sex trade or something like that, as I have heard news reports of women being trafficed internationaly against their will. Other than that I have no clue what you might be refering to. I am not trying to make a joke here, but I can't imagine open slavery going on that isnt getting reported by the news. I picutre a bunch of white people getting sunburned and whipped working the Middle East oil fields, but this obviously isnt happening. If middle eastern people were putting white people into bondage I would assume Fox News would be all over that.

Thanks

[Dayve]

I don't think the main argument here should be sidetracked. The argument is that slavery is not something to be ashamed of, it is a part of history from a time long past which should be embraced and learned about like any other.

The only people who actually get offended by slavery, despite the fact it was abolished over 150 years ago, are poor American blacks who are looking for a free handout of cash by trying to make white people feel guilty about something they have not done, and trying to pretend that black people are the only people to ever be enslaved ever in the history of the entire world, a lot like Jews try to make the world believe they are the only people on earth to ever be treated badly in any way shape or form, and once again they are another group of people looking for nothing more than a free handout.

The lengths people will go to for free handouts of government money never ceases to amaze me.

[0rly?]

They should have made a big deal about slavery, it could have been a british mission to abolish it. Moreover it would have got the game a LOT of headlines in the media, and they do say that "no publicity is bad publicity"

[Zoring]

Funnily enough the ultimate Enlightment tech is Abolishing Slavery :D (which gives you a +4 to your income? peculiar!) should have just been another resource like any other, however with a negative to your population happiness as you become more 'enlightened' don't have to make a fuss about it, just have it in there.

Also, all this past guilt nonsense, blimey. Let's get over that as a culture eh. We should NEVER censor history in any form, report it as it happened, take lessons from it and never do these things again. Now we have decided slavery is bad, we unilaterally decree that we shall not do it again, we teach how it happened, and we feel good that we have learnt our lesson and carry forward to the future. Nobody living today is a victim of any 18th century slavery, that is a fact.

[Meneldil]

This thread delivers.

White slavery in Africa and Middle East nowadays? Wut? The only enslavement of white people happening currently takes place in Western Europe, not in Africa or Asia.

[al Roumi]

This thread is why CA didn't put slavery in ETW...

Given that this sort of thing is used as an argument for it's inclusion, is it any wonder it isn't in??

"The only people who actually get offended by slavery, despite the fact it was abolished over 150 years ago, are poor American blacks who are looking for a free handout of cash by trying to make white people feel guilty about something they have not done, and trying to pretend that black people are the only people to ever be enslaved ever in the history of the entire world, a lot like Jews try to make the world believe they are the only people on earth to ever be treated badly in any way shape or form, and once again they are another group of people looking for nothing more than a free handout.

The lengths people will go to for free handouts of government money never ceases to amaze me."

reprehensible ignorance.

[Alsn]

This thread is why CA didn't put slavery in ETW...

Given that this sort of thing is used as an argument for it's inclusion, is it any wonder it isn't in??

"The only people who actually get offended by slavery, despite the fact it was abolished over 150 years ago, are poor American blacks who are looking for a free handout of cash by trying to make white people feel guilty about something they have not done, and trying to pretend that black people are the only people to ever be enslaved ever in the history of the entire world, a lot like Jews try to make the world believe they are the only people on earth to ever be treated badly in any way shape or form, and once again they are another group of people looking for nothing more than a free handout.

The lengths people will go to for free handouts of government money never ceases to amaze me."

reprehensible ignorance.While I agree that the argument you quote is horribly bad, that doesn't actually make slavery such a controversial thing to add to a game. Like I noted before Civilization IV has slavery in it(quite prominently actually, you can literally sacrifice your population to get stuff built quicker) but it received no negative publicity for this feature that I'm aware of.

I guess my point is that the only way to learn from history is to know of history. Deliberately ignoring uncomfortable truths is the way of repeating it(remember, this is a bad thing) and while I realize this is a computer game and not a history book, everything else in the game has strived to be as accurate as possible, why not this?

[PBI]

Actually I believe the Abolition of Slavery tech has the effect of increasing lower class happiness by 4 (I believe it is the only tech to actually reduce clamour for reform) and of increasing the cost to build plantations by 25%, as well as the (huge) prestige bonus. Not sure where the ideas about it only enhancing prestige came from, it's actually a pretty useful late game tech since by that stage the plantations are generally fully upgraded anyway but political unrest is becoming a real pain.

I'm not quite sure why this is such a controversial topic. I struggle to see how exactly adding in a highly detailed and explicit depiction of the Transatlantic slave trade instead of the rather more abstract and implicit representation in building plantations and the AoS tech would enrich the game in any way. Is this really the aspect of the 18th century people are most interested in recreating in great detail?

EDIT:
everything else in the game has strived to be as accurate as possible, why not this?

We all know this is not true, CA have consistently stated that their design philosophy emphasizes gameplay over historical accuracy, and they have always been willing to make sacrifices with the latter to improve the former. e.g., wars are much more about huge, decisive, army-destroying battles, and a lot less about making sure less of your side than the enemy die of dysentery before reaching the field, than in real life. In my view the same principle applies in this issue.

[Liberator]

No one was enraged about slave trade in Rome and in Rome nad Medieval 2 it was possible to loot cities (I miss it!) , so why should there be no slave trade in Empire?!
So Africa just ends up overlooked, one more time...:whip:

And I mean, if they wouldn't have brought all these slaves to America, who knows who would be president there in these days :logic: (joke)

[Callahan9119]

Slaves were a HUGE part of the global economy at this time.

The Romans made the world a slave, and even to this day you have whole nations enslaved (North Korea, Burma etc). Big deal if this time it was black people, I didn't hear anybody complaining about helotage or when those blue eyed Gauls were being enslaved in RTW.

Melanin levels shouldn't be a basis for outrage.

[A Very Super Market]

Most of you are completely missing the point. No one is arguing for slavery to be included because they feel it will be fun. They want slavery in because it is the 18th century, where slavery was a real, and almost essential business.

There are soldiers dying in this game. Rather horribly too, I must say. Why aren't there people arguing that CA should edit the game, and instead of dying, you soldiers have boo-boos, and instead of guns, they get nerf footballs. There, no more nasty stuff like dying.

You also fail to consider what life was like for the lower classes in factories. It was horrible work, and quite easily worse than slavery, considering the absolutely squalid conditions in cities. They were poor enough to be "owned" by the factory owners. Yet no one complains.

[Kobal2fr]

I'm pretty sure slavery is mentionned in the flavor text of the Plantation line of buildings. IIRC the blurb explains how plantations were cash crops meant solely for exporting exotic goods back to Europe, a concept which was only economically sustainable because of slavery and indentured labor.

So, while actual slave trading and Triangular Commerce isn't a game mechanic per se, if your Empire is sustained by those juicy crates of sugar and coffee from the Carribean, guess what ? You're an anti-abolitionnist ;)

(off topic, but in reaction to PBI's post : I haven't played Civ 4, but if they made the abolition of slavery increase happiness, boy did they whitewash/sugar coat it...
I remember how it was in CTP however, which I thought was quite clever : slavery was a formidable expansion/economic tool to use, as it both deprived other civs of their settlers and boosted your own pop, however it was a double edged sword : the special late Middle Age special Abolitionnist unit incited riots if used on cities that had slave pop, and more importantly the Act of Abolition wonder, once built, freed all slaves, everywhere at once. The civ that built the wonder had their slaves and part of those of all the other civs converted to normal population (huuuge population boost), the other civs ? Rioters everywhere. So you had to make the choice between either not getting involved in slavery at all at the risk of getting run over by slaver civs, become a slaver but research towards the Abolition tech ASAP which was sort of a dead end (plus the cost of building a semi-useless, one time use wonder), or just deal with the surprise mass slave insurrection bound to happen to you at some point.)

[antisocialmunky]

Eh, no. All slavery does is make YOUR population a little unhappy because you sacrificed your people to build stuff.

I here in the late game you can go Kremlin + State Property + Slavery to conquer the world. :)

[rossahh]

Most of you are completely missing the point. No one is arguing for slavery to be included because they feel it will be fun. They want slavery in because it is the 18th century, where slavery was a real, and almost essential business.

There are soldiers dying in this game. Rather horribly too, I must say. Why aren't there people arguing that CA should edit the game, and instead of dying, you soldiers have boo-boos, and instead of guns, they get nerf footballs. There, no more nasty stuff like dying.

You also fail to consider what life was like for the lower classes in factories. It was horrible work, and quite easily worse than slavery, considering the absolutely squalid conditions in cities. They were poor enough to be "owned" by the factory owners. Yet no one complains.



Spot on. Slavery had a MASSIVE impact on the world during ETWs timeline, so it is odd not to include it.


The issues of racism and the brutality of how slaves were treated don't really seem to be strong excuses for not including slavery when you consider that you can happily slaughter thousands of Indian troops with your own white, European soldiers at will. Indeed, watch some of the death animations and you'll see that combat in ETW is pretty brutal. Your men strangle and then break the neck of their opponents, spear people laying on the ground with bayonets or trample over men with horses.

Yet despite this slavery seems taboo - even thought it was in both RTW and M2TW.

[pevergreen]

I'm just being ignored now.

I've posted where it is.