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Hello!
I'm currently playing a bactria campaign, on H\M with BI.exe, i have Alexandropolis,Kophen,gava haomavarga and of course baktra. I'm an ally of pahlava, saka and others not important, and i'm not at war with anyone. I'm planning an expedition into india before i attack AS and my only armie is made up of peltasts, phalangitai deuteroi and various tipes of archers, including speared ones. i took a look at the garrison in the northernmost settlement and it's monstrous, how the hell am i supposed to kill all those men and elephants? How did yall do it?
thx in advance.
SwissBarbar
03-20-2009, 14:43
if you have time, you could attack the city, shoot your arrows over the wooden wall and retreat when no arrows are left. Then you repeat this, until the garrison is weak enough. BTW: your peltasts are a very good weapon against elephants, maybe combined with fire-arrows...
Yeah, that's why i recruited them, the problem with your strategy is that all indian settlements are with stone walls.
Nachtmeister
03-20-2009, 15:16
You will have to starve them... They will sally on the final turn before surrender.
Careful - something about sieges is bugged in eb; somehow the player (in contrast to AI-controlled factions) can not cause devastation while laying siege. As a result, your army will be VERY short-rationed and belt-tightened after the time it takes to starve the garrison to the point of sallying.
=> LOW morale. Make no mistakes; your men will rout instantly.
Archers have almost no effect on the elephants - at least not within the short time it takes them to get to you.
Have
-four units of peltastai in RESERVE to "catch" the elephants once they are close enough, but also have at least
-two units of akontistai (more javelins and in this battle it is a matter of life and death); the rest of your army should be
-four units of pantodapoi phalangitai to be at least moderately safe from those guild warriors - let them reach anything else in melee and you are done for.
I managed to save my army (in spite of having only two units of pikes) because I role-played logistics and had
-three (!) FMs present when the enemy sallied.
Guild warriors are moderately vulnerable to rear-charges. Yes, they do die, but while some of them die, the rest keep up an insane kill rate.
Your archers will only become useful when the enemy is already routing; your cavalry will be far too busy trying to save your other units from the guild warriors. Do not engage Indian longbowmen in melee - with those crazy swords they are more lethal than Rhomphaiaphoroi (again, they die VERY fast, but they kill even FASTER). I have seen generals get butchered and spearmen routed at their hands. Kill them with archers instead, they will drop like flies to ranged attack. (Obviously do not try shooting any units still on the walls - futile...).
Due to another bug in the engine, your army will not pursue routers in siege battles with you as the attacker until you own at least one of the settlement's gates. As we are talking about stone walls here, forget pursuit --- THIS is why you did well in bringing archers along. Just shoot them as they run.
Raygereio
03-20-2009, 15:23
Here's how I did it.
Have an army of mainly skirmishers and archers (I went with 6 Persian Archers, 6 Peltastai, 2 Pantodapoi Phalangitai, 4 Thureophoroi and 2 FM's).
First in the siege, take the walls on the opposite side of the city of where the AI deployed it's units on the walls. Place your skirmishers on those walls, and use a throw-away unit, or one a FM, to lure the elefants to your skirmishers.
The 2 non-general elephant units will die pretty quickly. The general elephants will probably also require some flaming arrows from your archers (who are also on the walls) or some javalins from the Thureophoroi in their backside before they die or start rampaging.
With the elephants gone, the hardest part is over. Now take as many of the Longbowmen and especially the Guild Warriors out with your archers before they run out of ammo.
Then mop up the rest by using some Pantodapoi Phalangitai to pin them down, flank with some Thureophoroi and charge again and again with your FM's.
soup_alex
03-20-2009, 15:23
Odd. In my game, only the northernmost has stone walls; the other two both have only wooden palisades, but the same huge army in each.
Personally, I wouldn't get into an archer duel with them, especially when they have the wall, as their longbowmen are easily the equal of, if not better than, your Subeshi archers. If you have access to armoured Persian archers, they should be somewhat more effective.
Oh, and on longbowmen: I'd be reluctant to bring cavalry to sort them out, even if you're planning on forcing them to sally. Their sword-axes are nasty, and it's difficult to get a decent charge in as they nearly always form up in long and loosely-ordered lines (normally I only see AI troops entering loose formation when they think they're about to come under fire, but these longbowmen seemed to do it every time, even though my missiles were concentrated on the elephants and unarmoured spearmen).
Oh, and make sure you bring some slingers for the relatively well-armoured Guild Warriors, as the more of them you can lay to rest before they start chewing up your infantry, the better.
SwissBarbar
03-20-2009, 15:26
Yeah, that's why i recruited them, the problem with your strategy is that all indian settlements are with stone walls.
Ok, next method:
Starving is great as Nachtmeister said. But if the enemy army is much stronger than yours he will make a sally. Now it depends on the composition of the enemy's army. Either you fight them, as Nachtmeister proposed (great explanation btw!) OR you station your melee-fighters at the red line at the very border of the battlefield, and just shoot the enemy to pieces with your archers when they "crowd" off the gate and then RUUUUUN (but this requires the enemy not to have faster units like cav. or sth.). After your retreat you do this again, so long as the enemy makes sallies. After that, you switch to Nachtmeisters tactic.
Woah!:dizzy2: that sounds insanely difficult.....
Anyway what if i do like this, i have 4-5 units of pantodapoi, 4 peltasts,4-5 FMs and 5 archers.
I send in the army without a FM so as to not get the rationing trait and wait until they are 3 turns away from sallying and then get my FMs there right on time for the sally.
Hell, this will be one big fucking battle...........:skull:
SwissBarbar
03-20-2009, 15:31
hope you'll share the result with us :2thumbsup:
Some skirmishers besides the archers would be helpful too, just in case..
zooeyglass
03-20-2009, 16:07
i recall really having my baktrian ass handed back to me by guild warriors and longbowmen, back on an early campaign when i was relatively new to EB. The Indian cities simply cannot be done in half-measures: you've got to overload them or pound-for-pound they'll cut you up into tiny bitesize pieces....
i have no extra tips beyond the excellent advice above, apart from just adding a note on the effectiveness of hitting a unit with javelins and arrows simultaneously. for some reason (i'm pretty sure i'm just imagining it), it seems to whittle down a tough unit fairly rapidly. perhaps it's just the fact that i'm concentrating fire on one unit? perhaps it's getting in shots from the side? whatever it is, a good combination of arrows and javelins, as already recommended, is here recommended again. :) and good luck.
heldelance
03-20-2009, 16:11
If you're fast enough, you can try something that seemed to work for me with Phalangites out against the greeks and Epirotes when they had a bigger defence force than my attackers..
What you do is get some expendable close combat infantry, 1-2 groups. Once the enemy tries to move out of the gates, your expendable infantry (make sure they have the Fast Moving trait) need to pin them to the gates. Have you phalangites run over and then get into formation so that when their pikes drop, you're covering what exits the gates. Move 2 other phalangite groups into a V formation so that anyone that exits the gates is now facing 3 sets of pikes. Keep in mind, arrows will be raining down on you a lot.
SwissBarbar
03-20-2009, 16:14
that's only effectice at wooden walls, city wall-towers would shoot you in pieces from the flank (since your phalax would turn its back to the tower, when it turns the pikes to the flank of the gates..)
And the dangerous thing would be, if you drove back the enemy, oil and fire would rain down on you from the gates.
So this tactic can be successful, but it is extremely dangerous and difficult to master at stone walls!
AAAAAAAAAAARGH right when i had killed off almost all the elephants a f...ing CTD happened!!!!!!!!!!!!:furious3::wall:
Damn it! i'll have to do it all again!!!!!!!!!!!!!:wall:
heldelance
03-20-2009, 16:28
I know the feeling. I had one where I only had an army of 700-ish and the enemy with like 2000+, I managed to defeat him by killing his general and thus his troops routed quite easily. Heroic victory and what not after one helluva hard battle. BAM! CTD.
ziegenpeter
03-20-2009, 16:33
because I role-played logistics
how do you do that?
Odd. In my game, only the northernmost has stone walls; the other two both have only wooden palisades, but the same huge army in each.
Eleutheroi do upgrade their walls
The Fuzz
03-20-2009, 17:18
All you need are 4 units of those blue skirmisher guys and a few archer-spearmen and you're set. My stack that I sent into India consisted on
2 Generals
4 blue skirmish dudes
2 Baktrian skirmishers
3 panda phalangites
2 archer spearmen
2 thureophoroi (picked up as mercs on the way down to Opiana)
2 Dahae riders or equivalent
It was fairly cheap and easy to build up this stack. I've got mines in Kophen and Gava-Hao..whatever, so money is less of a problem now.
Good luck!
I lol'd madly as an elephant charge was halted in its tracks by those blue guys. 7 elephants. The other two ran amok.
panda phalangites
LMAO:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Anyway i did it again, and since i had the enemy depleted by waiting so long. There were about 850 men left. Exept for the elephants it was a peace of cake. Now i've conquered also pura and am beseiging the southernmost settlement in India, but the general has more than 104 units in his bodyguard :dizzy2::skull:
Thanks for the help guys!
soup_alex
03-21-2009, 17:15
Eleutheroi do upgrade their walls
In my case, they mostly just sit around scratching their arses, until they hit the next population milestone, when they wait for completion of the latest arse-scratching upgrade.
Really, I'm fairly sure I started this one on at least Hard, but I see little activity from the rebels. I'm sure they must be growing/building, but they're doing it damn slowly.
Ugh, post-heroic-victory-CTD. The worst of its kind.
Well i'm almost finished beseiging whatever the southernmost indian settlement is, but the pahlava broke our alliance and are beseiging gava haomavarga, wich is a huge city and so with just one pezetairoi the streets are too large and i cant defend it, the problem is i had to family members in there....... Aargh i hate that backstabbing AI:wall:
Any suggestions on how to defend a settlement with 2 general bodyguards,1peze's and 2 archer spearmen against 1pahlava gen,1 armoured HA,1 thureophoroi and 3 more units of light infantry?
I can't defend the gate since he has like 4 rams, i tried putting the peze's in the only way to the center, but those fucking armoured horses just get trough them.......:furious3:
A Very Super Market
03-21-2009, 18:27
Use your own bodyguards to delay them a bit ahead of the phalanx, and then retreat into it.
It works better than it sounds.
Alternatively, let them charge the phalanx, then swing around and charge them
machinor
03-21-2009, 18:34
Another strategy would be to lure the enemy army out of the city into a river battle. I once accidentaly did that and managed to do quite good. Just make sure you have enough archers (I prefer the Persians) and a phalanx to hold the line. Some skirmishers are also quite handy. And some death dealers who can prevail against the guild infantry. Sometimes (especially the northern city) the AI sends his army roaming around. That's your chance to quickly take the city by surprise. I usually do not have any major problems dealing with the Indians.
EDIT:
This is of course still refering to the discussion about besieging the Indian settlements.
amritochates
03-21-2009, 19:41
Ok heres the cheesy-easy way to siege eleutheroi settlements with monster armies:
Siege with a numerically large yet balanced army, siege said settlement, wait till one one turn to end of siege , disengage- wait a turn or not and restart the siege. At the end of the second siege the rebel army units will be down to 15-20% strenght.
Now you can fight out the sally battle with a sufficiently large numerical superiority to gain certain victory, though in most cases due to your superior numbers the city will capitulate with out a fight.
Exterminate, set up garrison and move on.
Ps. for best effect use a captain led army for both siege operations, and introduce the fm at turn before the sally to get him blooded trait while avoiding the siege related negative trait.
Zorachus
03-23-2009, 01:27
For me peltasts are the key. Ye spear-chucker will win the battle for ya.
I've noticed that my favorite units, Hellenic Native Phalanxes and Persian Archers are well-nigh-unto-useless. Get natives with elephantitis feature, give em bronze swords & shields. :turtle:
To win the full stack vs full stack glory battle vs Indikos
1) Lots and lots of ladders
2) Suffer against the indian archers against the wall while getting the reserve of skirmishers on the walls
3) Wait for the elephants and then chuck spears straight down on em.
4) Watch riot ensue with elephants going nuts on enemy army.
5) Get off the wall before you run out of time.
6) Charge city center with your scattered remnants
7) Scream victory during your third try; frightening all living creatures in your house.
Oh I play on HUGE, so I can get that warm feeling from the the litter of bodies. :drama3:
...The Indian cities simply cannot be done in half-measures: you've got to overload them or pound-for-pound they'll cut you up into tiny bitesize pieces...
Yep all good advice in this thread, I love the Indian campaign and I often send a well-stat'd very young heir to complete it to reap the "Indiophonos" type bonuses. My "India-busting" stack is 3 FMs (1 governor for each city) 3 deutero phalanxes, 4 akontistai, 4 archers (set to fireball: they may not ever kill an elephant but the morale damage has to help) and hired peltasts and Baktrian inf as needed to top up.
For me the great dillema is whether to go type 1 or type 4 in Taxila. I want to extend my kingdom and that means type 1 dammit, but I also fancy the elite cav on offer if I give them some autonomy.
athanaric
03-23-2009, 11:15
For me the great dillema is whether to go type 1 or type 4 in Taxila. I want to extend my kingdom and that means type 1 dammit, but I also fancy the elite cav on offer if I give them some autonomy.
Surprisingly, lvl 3 Government is all you need in Taksashila to get all the elite units there. It also restricts your building options less. Or you could "cheat" by first building Gov. 4 (and teching up to Regional MIC 4) and then building Gov. 1.
The Fuzz
03-23-2009, 14:39
I just build the Level 1, as usually my frontier is also to far to the west that it's not worth it to transport units that far afield. It's bad enough going from Baktra to Opiana...
Surprisingly, lvl 3 Government is all you need in Taksashila to get all the elite units there. It also restricts your building options less. Or you could "cheat" by first building Gov. 4 (and teching up to Regional MIC 4) and then building Gov. 1.
WooHoo! To think I hadn't realised that all I need is a type 3. Well if I take a type 3 to regional MIC4, then switch to a Type 1, it seems a lot less like breaking my own house rules...naw, I don't think I can do it.
Still I'm happy to keep the southernmost city a type 4, its just that I have to ship in a recruited general from...errr...somewhere a bloody long way away.
I just build the Level 1, as usually my frontier is also to far to the west that it's not worth it to transport units that far afield. It's bad enough going from Baktra to Opiana...
Yep but I like to RP regional armies, so I build up a force in a city and march 'em out to fight as a unit together. There's a ragtag Indian Army (merged down to 1 spear and 3 archers left, the spears all got bled by phalanxes) in Pura in my current Baktria campaign, I'll either settle them in Pura (ie disbandbuild a military settlement as a sort of tie-in) or march them home to rebuild and ship out (maybe to invade Saba or Etheopia! I like all the mines down that way).
Hw do Indian type armies go vs HA's like the Saka? The archers don't have great range, and I don't fancy chasing Saka nobles with Elephants, so it might be a bit of a mismatch.
What exactly does Type III restrict in Taksashila less than Type IV. What buildings?
A Very Super Market
03-25-2009, 02:40
*Sigh..
T1
Lvl 5 factional
lvl 2 regional
T2
lvl 4 factional
lvl 3 regional
T3
lvl 3 factional
lvl 4 regional
T4
lvl 2 factional
lvl 5 regional
The other buildings start getting complicated. Not sure about them
soup_alex
03-25-2009, 03:43
*Sigh..
T1
Lvl 5 factional
lvl 2 regional
T2
lvl 4 factional
lvl 3 regional
T3
lvl 3 factional
lvl 4 regional
T4
lvl 2 factional
lvl 5 regional
The other buildings start getting complicated. Not sure about them
...but the build trees for each faction/kingdom/etc. are available in the EB folder (in documentation, IIRC).
Basically, the closer to a Type I government you install, the greater the range of buildings you will be permitted to construct, e.g. I think building a Type IV precludes construction of Baths, although you can always, given homeland/subjugation/etc. support, construct a "better" government, build your Baths (for example), then knock down the Type I/II/III gov and replace it with the IV.
Yes. I know how Barracks are restricted by type of your government. I just don't see how other buildings are and BuildTrees aren't clear on the subject either.
That's why I asked which buildings besides barracks are affected.
soup_alex
03-25-2009, 04:16
According to the packaged build tree, Baktria needs at least a
T I for Factional MIC Lvl 5, Golden Buddhist Stupa and Monastery (disallows regional MICs above Lvl 2)
T II for Desert Irrigation, Large Sanctuary of Apskeleion, Aqueduct, Very Large Market, Great School of Learning, Mercantile Harbour/equivalent port upgrade, Colony, Trade Caravan, Gymnasion, Great Buddhist Stupa and Monastery, Factional MIC Lvl 5 (disallows regional MICs above Lvl 3)
T III for Public Bathing Places, Large Market, Academy, Mercantile Port, Trading-Colony (I think now titled "Homes for Military Settlers"?), Small Gymnasion, Regional Games, Regional Festival, Buddhist Villiage Stupa, Buddhist City Stupa and Monastery, Factional MIC Lvl 3 (disallows regional MICs above Lvl 4)
T IV allows more-or less everything else (including Odeon and Columned Music Halls) but limits the sanitation chain to Hidden Sewers, the market chain to the plain Market/Agora, the school chain to the smallest School, smallest trading port and upgrade, and as discussed allows up to Lvl 5 of the regional MIC, at the cost of limiting the Factional MIC to Level 2 or less.
Numerous other buildings may also require at least the provisional military government, but I haven't detailed those buildings, as the choice between installing a temporary military government and not is normally a fairly straightforward one.
Hope that helps?
Dunno about anyone else but it helps me, thanks mate. Type 1 all the way for this Bartix Executor.
If I have the time and money i build a type 4 gov first and build up the regional MIC's then switch to a type 1 to get the factional MIC's. It's plain cheating but i like having every unit available.
If I have the time and money i build a type 4 gov first and build up the regional MIC's then switch to a type 1 to get the factional MIC's. It's plain cheating but i like having every unit available.
That's called... cheating.
Btw, Thanks for your answer soup_alex.
It's plain cheating but i like having every unit available.
Well i did say it was.
My empire is just a thoroughly enilightened and liberal place where all methods of killing are welcome:yes:
Darth Stalin
03-27-2009, 21:13
No, it's not cheating. It's the way the Roman Empire has been built...
Gov IV represents an allied state/kingdom etc. which can recruit its own forces. Gov I (or II, mostly) is a conquered territory, with your factinal administration.
However, Gov IV can be transferred into Gov II due to time (client ruler dies, with no heirs, so you can get the heritage - like Bithynian kingdom); the only "cheat" here is letting the regional MIC to stay there while Factional MIC is constructed too... but well, even the Romans used specialistic Auxiliary forces...
Easiest way to do Taksashila:
- 4x cheapest Phalangites
- 4-6x cheapest javelin throwers from Kophen 900 minai local barracks, it's easier if they are experienced (better morale and accuracy)
- 4-6x some archers, preferably Archer-Spearmen (best kind out there)
- 2x family members with their excellent cavalry
- Some random mercenaries and infantries you can pick on the way there
Bring more troops to starve them a bit before you fight. Or bring less of them if you feel cocky and want the city faster, by making enemy army sally on the first turn of siege.
Anyway, back on topic, you besiege Taksashila and wait for them to sally forth... and you run away. Your army will withdraw to a nearby river crossing and if you're playing on H/M or VH/M (you should be), enemies from Taksashila will follow you there. Defending a river crossing with such an overwhelming force of missile units shielded by phalanxes is pretty easy, just keep your javelins safe and use them exclusively to kill elephants.
It's even easier due to the fact that their general stays in the city where you can kill him two turns later. He gives them no bonus whatsoever during your battle, they will have a random captain.
Finishing off lonely enemy general and his elephants is a cakewalk, he will stick to the plaza if he's alone, bring javelins, throw throw throw until elephants go crazy ... and win. City is yours, build type IV there and get some of those feared Indian units for yourself. Especially guild warriors who are by far your best flankers for the whole game.
Have fun. :-)
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