Catholic Church in deeep water. [Archive]

tibilicus

05-20-2009, 22:15

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8060442.stm

All I can say is I'm shocked, yet some how I'm not surprised. Yet again an institution who's purpose is to protect the vulnerable in society can some how turn its back on those very duties and commit such disgusting abuses. What makes this even worse is that the Church hierarchy knew such abuse was taking place yet they chose not to do anything about it.

As many people here know, I'm critical of organised religion at the best of times, but this has really got me riled up. How can some one claim to commit themselves to a life of helping others and committing themselves to God and yet at the same time abuse an innocent child. If you read some articles the abuse is really quite shocking.

A lot of people refer to the Catholic church as the worlds biggest charity but I ask you this, how can a charity possibility have any credibility if it's leading members act like this? It seems the Catholic Church as an institution still seems to think you can get into heaven via indulgences and that being a good person isn't part of the deal..

Samurai Waki

05-20-2009, 22:29

Just disgusting. I'm not mad entirely at the Catholic Church for this, I'm also mad at Ireland for not prosecuting these scumbags.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

05-20-2009, 22:51

It seems your problem is mostly with the Irish government for not prosecuting...they seem to be much more callous about the issue than the Church, as you can see here:

The leader of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales, the Most Reverend Vincent Nichols, said those who perpetrated violence and abuse should be held to account, "no matter how long ago it happened".

"Every time there is a single incident of abuse in the Catholic Church, it is a scandal. I would be very worried if it wasn't a scandal... I hope these things don't happen again, but I hope they're never a matter of indifference," he said.

I think every Catholic will agree with you that this is disgusting.

It seems the Catholic Church as an institution still seems to think you can get into heaven via indulgences and that being a good person isn't part of the deal..

Do you have any idea what indulgences or confession are?

Rhyfelwyr

05-20-2009, 22:54

Big. Jock. Knew.

A case of sexual abuse by Catholic priests in Ireland? That's hardly anything new, they'll never get true justice.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

05-20-2009, 22:58

This story is 30 years old, it's in the news now because of the report.

A Terribly Harmful Name

05-20-2009, 23:48

I think the Catholic Church has already outlived its purpose on the world. Tear them down.

tibilicus

05-21-2009, 00:00

Do you have any idea what indulgences or confession are?

Yes I do know what indulgences are. They were basically bits of parchment which could be purchased back in the 16th century which pardoned a number of sins. Lead to the 95 Theses after whichever Pope it was tried to use indulgences to pay for St. Peters Basilica.

Reason I mentioned that is because to me that sums up some parts the Catholic Church as an institution. By that I mean institutions which really aren't committed to the spiritual services to God.

tibilicus

05-21-2009, 00:01

Big. Jock. Knew.

A case of sexual abuse by Catholic priests in Ireland? That's hardly anything new, they'll never get true justice.

Surely that leads to the question then of why on earth the Catholic Church is receiving such protection from the Irish government?

Evil_Maniac From Mars

05-21-2009, 00:04

Yes I do know what indulgences are. They were basically bits of parchment which could be purchased back in the 16th century which pardoned a number of sins.

Kind of right, but mostly not.

By that I mean institutions which really aren't committed to the spiritual services to God.

You're an atheist, are you not?

tibilicus

05-21-2009, 00:11

Kind of right, but mostly not.

You're an atheist, are you not?

How so? Please enlighten me to your true definition and sum it up in two lines preferably like I did.

And I'm more Agnostic than Atheist. It's not so much that I don't believe there is a God, more I don't really care. Also you should know I'm not trying to attack Catholics as individuals, I'm more highlighting my grievances with the Catholic Church as an institution.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

05-21-2009, 00:11

How so? Please enlighten me to your true definition and sum it up in two lines preferably like I did.

I'll do better. Link. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgences)

Askthepizzaguy

05-21-2009, 00:32

tibilicus

05-21-2009, 00:34

I'll do better. Link. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgences)

Using Wikipedia is cheating!

Samurai Waki

05-21-2009, 00:36

maybe they were the Satanic Order of the Chattering Nuns of St. Beryl in disguise. although they seem rather tight lipped on the issue... nope, they're Catholic. :daisy:.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

05-21-2009, 01:36

I have to say... nothing the Catholic Church does surprises me anymore.

Granted there are plenty of members, priests, and so on who have clean hands in all this, but there is a huge, widespread problem with the Catholic Church and their leadership and administrators. The irony of the "Sisters of Mercy" and "Christian Brothers" doing things that are downright Satanic, and having the widespread abuse covered up in "Secret Vatican Documents" dating back to the 1930's....

I really think the Roman Catholic Church has to go. No church which claims to worship God and Jesus should behave this way, and it goes all the way directly to the Vatican itself. Anyone who knew about this and didn't immediately come forward is, to me, exactly the same as the child molesters and abusers themselves. May they all be tossed in prison.

Have you considered the possibility that reform has taken place?

That an organistion with One Billion members cannot be all Saints?

That there is no member of the Catholic heiarchy that was even ordained when the abuses take place?

It's liek saying, "Yeah, America owned slaves for a long time, the country is clearly rotten and needs to be destroyed."

Askthepizzaguy

05-21-2009, 01:56

Have you considered the possibility that reform has taken place?

That an organistion with One Billion members cannot be all Saints?

That there is no member of the Catholic heiarchy that was even ordained when the abuses take place?

It's liek saying, "Yeah, America owned slaves for a long time, the country is clearly rotten and needs to be destroyed."

Um... no reform has taken place. They are still protecting members and covering it up, today. Read the article.

An organization with top officials who know about this and do nothing... that's not the same as not being saints. That's patently obvious.

These abuses have been going on for decades, and this is just another example.

How did I know you would knee-jerk react and defend the church? There is no criticism that can be leveled at a religious organization and have it be legitimate to you, is there? It's in black and white.

Damn, dude.

Crazed Rabbit

05-21-2009, 02:39

RoadKill

05-21-2009, 02:42

Just because Hitler was bad, it doesn't make all Germans bad. :yes:

Strike For The South

05-21-2009, 06:23

Baptists would never do those. :yes:

Scurvy

05-21-2009, 07:02

Incongruous

05-21-2009, 07:15

Yay!!!

Finally we Catholics can once again fulfill our purpose in life, being the members of the most evilest organisiation on earth, Pah! Dan Brown don't know the third of it!

Regularly I make fun of Muslims, Jews and Protestants, I make ill informed posts about religion constantly, but nothing will stop me for I know the full truth and everything but!

Oh, hey anyone heard of Vatican II? Good movie:2thumbsup:

C'mon guys lets go pelt retarded Catholics!!!

Samurai Waki

05-21-2009, 07:21

Well as we all know the head of the Catholic Church is not the Pope, who is merely a figure head. But the real head is actually the Giant Spider Queen who weaves intricate and complex designs (such as the right to Molestation and Covering it up) into a web of madness from whence nobody can escape.

All Hail the Spider Queen!

Askthepizzaguy

05-21-2009, 08:02

I feel for any and all people of faith who have nothing to do with this. I might be non-religious but I don't auto-equate religion with child molestation and abuse.

However, the lack of proper reform and lack of leadership by the Vatican on this makes me quite angry. I would not miss the Roman Catholic Church if it decided to take it's massive wealth and pay to be blasted into space to meet their God.

Incongruous

05-21-2009, 08:11

Tribesman

05-21-2009, 10:16

Surely that leads to the question then of why on earth the Catholic Church is receiving such protection from the Irish government?

Because they did a deal with Bertie and his crooks , hand over prime development land to the State for Berties "business" friends to have for nothing and then get indemnity from prosecution . Well not exactly indemnity its just that the church won't have to pay because they nominally gave their assets to the State not the developers so its the State that has to pay ...which means its the taxpayers who will have to pay an since Berties legacy means taxpayers are getting in short supply it means there is no money to pay for any settlements .
So since it is the State that deals with prosecutions , the State which will have to fund both prosecution and defence and the State which will have to pay the penalties the State ain't gonna do bugger all .

Meneldil

05-21-2009, 11:10

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Nah. but a billion others probabaly would.

More like a few millions.

King Henry V

05-21-2009, 12:10

An appalling case of abuse and complicity.

It does however make me think that if the Church wishes to survive as an institution, it must abolish celibacy, a most unnatural state of affairs, construed by the Church in the early Middle Ages so that it did not have to support priests' wives as well as priests, and which lies at the root of all these crimes.

tibilicus

05-21-2009, 13:58

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

05-21-2009, 16:18

Um... no reform has taken place. They are still protecting members and covering it up, today. Read the article.

An organization with top officials who know about this and do nothing... that's not the same as not being saints. That's patently obvious.

These abuses have been going on for decades, and this is just another example.

How did I know you would knee-jerk react and defend the church? There is no criticism that can be leveled at a religious organization and have it be legitimate to you, is there? It's in black and white.

Damn, dude.

The Catholic Church has a powerful heirarchy which makes it very difficult to report on your superiors. At the same the Roman Church, wrongly, adopted a "don't ask, don't tell, close ranks" attitude to abuses. Part of the problem is inherent in Roman doctrine, which emphasises harsh punishment on the one hand and forgiveness on the other.

So a priest is either let off, or defrocked, excomunicated, banned from communion for life and possibly denied the last rights. The Roman Catholic Church has a policy of trying to get as many souls into heaven as possible. In view of which, they dislike harsh punishments for anything other than heresy; in which they use as harsh a punishement as possible.

You are the one who has had a "knee-jerk" reaction, not me. The "top official" is the Pope, and you have to get past your geographical hierarchy and your Order to get to him. This has been a difficulty for about 500-700 years, and it stems from the creation of the Papal Curia as a monarchial court. The reforms enacted then were in order to allow the Papacy to tighten standards of pastoral care and conduct throughout the Church. Ironically, the measures backfired when it became possible for degenerates to hold Papal Office.

Unfortunately, the "Reformation" failed and this is still the situation we are stuck with.

An appalling case of abuse and complicity.

It does however make me think that if the Church wishes to survive as an institution, it must abolish celibacy, a most unnatural state of affairs, construed by the Church in the early Middle Ages so that it did not have to support priests' wives as well as priests, and which lies at the root of all these crimes.

To be fair, it wasn't about their wives (certainly not in England), it was about them grooming their sons to take over their benefices. The Church was turning into a second feudal aristocracy; and that was seriously damaging clerical standards of behaviour, pastoral care and education.

However, none of these are likely to become issues today.

I would say the best course would be to allow married Deacons to take higher Orders, I don't think priests should really be allowed to have girlfriends and "date". Personally I'm of the belief all priests should be married, as a life partner is an invaluable support in such a vocation; also, it helps to have someone else to run the Parish Bake Sale.

Furunculus

05-21-2009, 16:32

I think the Catholic Church has already outlived its purpose on the world. Tear them down.

we're a couple of hundred years ahead of you. :balloon2:

Evil_Maniac From Mars

05-21-2009, 20:51

The problem is that they're part of an organisation which preaches the so called "right moral behaviour". To me it seems that many Catholics aren't that bothered by these events and seem to accept them as an inevitable problem within the church. Even when scandals like this continue to pop up the number of
members in the church hasn't shrunk.

There's even bizarre stories of people knowing about Catholic hierarchy abusing young members in their own congregation and yet they still seem to stay loyal and don't want to demand any really reform for fear of going against Catholic tradition and teachings. I just don't get it, you wouldn't allow a headteacher to be appointed if you knew they had sinister intentions, yet this case has highlighted the church is prepared to do the opposite and defend its clergy, no matter how sinister their actions.

You wouldn't want a paedophile living on your road, so why are so many people cool with paedophiles running their church organisations?

[Am I allowed to say bullox as a German?] Bullox. We aren't defending the few people in the clergy that do this kind of thing - we think they're as guilty as you do. We are defending our faith from broad attacks by anti-Catholics on the faith as a whole.

You can attack the individuals who commit these sick crimes all you like. Attack our faith and traditions and it might get ugly.

EDIT: The sexual crimes are, of course, completely disturbing. What I would like to see, however, is exactly what happened with these physical beatings and humiliations. Remember, these things happened a long time ago. What were other schools like at the time?

Rhyfelwyr

05-21-2009, 20:55

The problem is that the church as a whole is covering up. Not every Catholic, but the institution on the whole.

BTW, what's "bullox" :inquisitive:

Evil_Maniac From Mars

05-21-2009, 20:58

BTW, what's "bullox" :inquisitive:

The "fact" that ordinary Catholics don't care/aren't bothered comes immediately to mind. Really, saying that is practically one step away from blood libel...

Askthepizzaguy

05-21-2009, 21:08

You are the one who has had a "knee-jerk" reaction, not me.

You're half right. When I see horrible systemic abuses of children, my reaction is to condemn.

However, you are being ridiculous if you think your reaction isn't knee-jerk. I cannot find a better term for it. You seem to want to defend the church no matter what its crimes and offer apologist's explanations. The simple solution? Don't be a part of such a corrupt church.

tibilicus

05-21-2009, 21:54

[Am I allowed to say bullox as a German?] Bullox. We aren't defending the few people in the clergy that do this kind of thing - we think they're as guilty as you do. We are defending our faith from broad attacks by anti-Catholics on the faith as a whole.

You can attack the individuals who commit these sick crimes all you like. Attack our faith and traditions and it might get ugly.

EDIT: The sexual crimes are, of course, completely disturbing. What I would like to see, however, is exactly what happened with these physical beatings and humiliations. Remember, these things happened a long time ago. What were other schools like at the time?

I haven't attacked your faiths or traditions, unless defending paedophiles counts as part of your tradition. What I'm wondering is why Catholics don't demand for reform and stricter screening of clergy members and the institutions they run. Seems to me a lot of people are quick to condemn such crimes yet when it comes to any talk of reform every one goes notably silent. I'm not saying the catholic Church needs to reform it's teachings, what I am saying though is it's about time someone stood up to church hierarchy and demand answers into what isn't isolated cases, but is actually a world wide problem as there have been cases of abuse around the globe. We're not talking about a few cases here, this is a widespread problem..

rory_20_uk

05-21-2009, 22:14

Catholic Church an institution that is a self serving entity that protects deviants and humiliates and abuses boys and girls?

Good to see some traditions are still kept up then.

Worship God? Fine. But the catholic Church brings so much baggage from years ago that is patently serving those at the top at the expense of everyone else and who'se idea of "reform" appears to be occasionally forgiving someone a few hundred years ago.

Tear it down and start again. It's what Jesus would do.

~:smoking:

Askthepizzaguy

05-21-2009, 22:29

Personally I'd be delighted if Jesus showed up and started doing what he did to the money changers. Hardly an authoritative source, but (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_money_changers)...

If Jesus took such offense to people selling things in the temple to those people trying to hear about God, just imagine what he would do to all these little Jesus-themed trinket shops, profiteering off of religion just to make a quick buck. I don't even want to think about what he would do to the church officials who sexually and otherwise physically and mentally abuse children. I have a feeling there would be some smoking craters in the ground. Time for another reformation... people seriously ought to stop paying any sort of money to that organization, and if they MUST be Catholic, they should have a local chapter which doesn't answer to the church hierarchy. Roman Catholicism should go. And there should be so much reform that what you're really talking about is going Protestant at the very least.

It's no longer just a den of thieves, it's a den of child molesters, thugs, and racketeers.

Brenus

05-21-2009, 22:43

Young 14 years old Brazilian Girl Pregnant after being raped by a Step Dad aborts: Excommunication.
Priest torture, raped and humiliate young boys and girl: Nothing
That the Church for you…:dizzy2:

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

05-21-2009, 22:43

You're half right. When I see horrible systemic abuses of children, my reaction is to condemn.

However, you are being ridiculous if you think your reaction isn't knee-jerk. I cannot find a better term for it. You seem to want to defend the church no matter what its crimes and offer apologist's explanations. The simple solution? Don't be a part of such a corrupt church.

I don't know how many times I have to explain this, I am an Anglo-Catholic, not a Roman Catholic.

Your solution to a problem which is an old one, and already largely dealt with, was to call for the dissolution of the Roman Catholic Church. That is a knee-jerk reaction, with no thought to the consequences.

The fact is that it would only take about 20 Cardinals, bishops and Chapter heads to cover something like this up, aside from the abusers themselves.

Now, many Catholics have called for reform, but if they shout too loudly they will follow Luthor and argueably do very little good. The Church has been resistant to change for about 500 years, because they believe that changes they make impact on the number of people going to heaven. Heterodoxy can be deemed heresy when it challenges the heirarchy directly, and the problem become still greater when you consider that the Cardinal you are attacking might become Pope.

The Catholic Church is an institution more than 1,700 years old, with more that 1 Billion members, it is the largest religion in the world, and the largest charity. To say, "It has to go" is naive, because it isn't going anywhere.

So, rather than throwing around unrealistic suggestions, why don't you try to think a little more calmly and reasonably.

Rhyfelwyr

05-21-2009, 22:49

The "fact" that ordinary Catholics don't care/aren't bothered comes immediately to mind. Really, saying that is practically one step away from blood libel...

Your spelling was bollox :wink:

Askthepizzaguy

05-21-2009, 23:10

So, rather than throwing around unrealistic suggestions, why don't you try to think a little more calmly and reasonably.

Since the church seems to be able to avoid real legal consequences, the only thing people can realistically do is vote with their feet and leave the church. Maybe then, the loss of money would convince them to toss out the child molesters instead of transferring them. That's a realistic suggestion and guess what? It works, too.

You're talking about one instance where it would take a relatively small amount of people to cover it up, but again this is not an isolated incident. This is not the first abuse case this year. This has been happening for decades, all across the planet. In my own country, we had a vast amount of separate examples of priests abusing and molesting children in the past few years alone.

This is not just a few bad apples spoiling the bunch. This is a widespread, systemic problem which is being, in almost every single case, systematically covered up by the church and the individual criminals in question transferred away to prey on the innocent again.

That's "prey" not "pray".I don't care which religion a person is, when the knee-jerk reaction is to defend the church and seem to throw up their hands and say "what are you gonna do" I get very concerned. But ultimately I don't need to change your mind, enough people will change their minds on their own, and get disgusted with the church that they will leave it and the loss of a few million or so members will cause even the church of Rome to re-examine its obscene policy of allowing abusers to abuse and then assisting them in avoiding legal action.

And if that is just a pipe dream, then people are willing participants and paying members of a group which is responsible for the organized abuse of countless people, and I am voicing my severe disappointment and disgust, which I'm allowed to do.

:medievalcheers:

Seamus Fermanagh

05-21-2009, 23:12

Since this scandal "broke" a few years ago, and the sadly long history of covering up abuses was exposed, Holy Mother Church -- and particularly the dioceses in the USA -- have gone to significant lengths to adopt the oversight policies and attitudes for which so many of you are calling.

Sadly, as with any large bureaucratic organization, the tendency for issues of concern to be "hushed up" or meaningful reform slowed or neutered by red tape is also present in the Church.

As a conservative, I'd be ecstatic if the level of incisive criticism leveled (with some good reason I admit) at the Catholic Church were aimed at any number of bloated bureacracies that need reform. I can think of a few departments in the USG could do with some heavy pruning -- oh, but that' the government, so we know it is always working for our best interests....:wiseguy:

Please, those of you who are on about the married priests thing again, check your reasoning. There is ZERO data indicating that sexual frustration leads to pedophilia. There is, as far as I am aware, not even a correlational connection, much less a causal one. A priest having the chance to get his yaks milked will have no bearing on this issue.

Askthepizzaguy

05-21-2009, 23:36

As a conservative, I'd be ecstatic if the level of incisive criticism leveled (with some good reason I admit) at the Catholic Church were aimed at any number of bloated bureacracies that need reform.

:bounce:

Does this mean I have not demonstrated my extreme dislike for the United States government, or any other global organization with extreme levels of corruption, or my distrust of huge organizations to begin with?

I'd better roll up my sleeves. Group mentality and group guilt and the ability of a large group to defend itself very easily from a smaller group allows not only strength in numbers but also allows people to feel secure and safe enough to commit crimes they would never consider doing on their own. I believe there have been a rather large amount of sociological studies which demonstrate how people in groups behave much, much more unethically than lone individuals, even to the point where peer pressure alone can cause people to give answers to simple questions which they know are dead wrong. I wish I had the data in front of me to share, but I just watched one of these studies on an educational channel on TV, and read about such studies constantly in various newspapers and other media. In large groups, people behave badly, and people can be more easily pressured into acting without shame.

Fear not Seamus, I have a great loathing for any large group. In the end, they all ultimately become a bunch of bullies. That is why I am not a member of any group, or if I am (such as this forum) I am a casual member who retains his independence to an annoying and frustrating degree. Groups, to be honest, tend to behave poorly towards anyone not in that group. I hate groups.

Incongruous

05-22-2009, 00:15

More like a few millions.

Awsome, just awsome, almost as awsome as the mighty Lions of Israel who also post ridiculous "facts".:smash:

The simple solution? Don't be a part of such a corrupt church.

That is frikin awsome, hey gay people don't be part of such a corrupted sexual grouping, the higher bollox of the Church says so!!!

The problem is that they're part of an organisation which preaches the so called "right moral behaviour".

Right, step back, think and truly understand the **** in that post, like some mighty wizard you have descended upon us with your amazing insight...

Oh please, stop the stuff about the moral code, you live in a society right? You understand how that works right?

Fear not Seamus, I have a great loathing for any large group. In the end, they all ultimately become a bunch of bullies. That is why I am not a member of any group, or if I am (such as this forum) I am a casual member who retains his independence to an annoying and frustrating degree. Groups, to be honest, tend to behave poorly towards anyone not in that group. I hate groups.

You live in a society right? You have a group of friends right? So bollox to all of it mate.

Adrian II

05-22-2009, 00:34

As a conservative, I'd be ecstatic if the level of incisive criticism leveled (with some good reason I admit) at the Catholic Church were aimed at any number of bloated bureacracies that need reform.As a closet socialist I whole-heartedly agree. The worst example of child abuse in living memory must be Romania's orphanages, set up by the communist Ceaucescu government. All political or religious denominations and establishments are prone to moral decay if left unchecked. This conclusion does not exonerate the Catholic clergy (in many nations, not just in Ireland), but it puts the whole thing in the proper perspective.

Askthepizzaguy

05-22-2009, 01:11

You live in a society right? You have a group of friends right? So bollox to all of it mate.

There's a difference between going to the store and buying groceries and living civilly with others under the law, and being part of a religious or political organization with them which demands group conformity and groupthink.

Please tell me you know the difference. Your post was thoughtless and not particularly insightful.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

05-22-2009, 01:15

There's a difference between going to the store and buying groceries and living civilly with others under the law, and being part of a religious or political organization with them which demands group conformity and groupthink.

The Catholic Church requires conformity and groupthink? Remind me to mention that to my fellow Catholics...

...all of whom have differing opinions, however major or minor, on politics, religion, and pretty much everything else...

In my opinion you are either ignorant or a step away from bigotry. I doubt it is the former, and I don't want to believe it is the latter.

Crazed Rabbit

05-22-2009, 01:42

There's a difference between going to the store and buying groceries and living civilly with others under the law, and being part of a religious or political organization with them which demands group conformity and groupthink.

Please tell me you know the difference. Your post was thoughtless and not particularly insightful.

:laugh4:
Oh, you. :laugh4:

Conformity and groupthink? I don't know how to respond to such wacky claims.

Remind me to mention that to my fellow Catholics...

No need, silly. We are the borg. We already know.

CR

Incongruous

05-22-2009, 01:53

being part of a religious or political organization with them which demands group conformity and groupthink.

Please tell me you know the difference. Your post was thoughtless and not particularly insightful.

:laugh4:

Awwww, I was thoughtless...

Now, lets look at these two statements, what can I derive from them?

1. You do not understand the dynamics of society

2. Your assessment of the Catholic Church in the modern world is off-track.

3. You dislike my thoughtless way of calling you out on your bollox.:yes:

Askthepizzaguy

05-22-2009, 02:06

The Catholic Church requires conformity and groupthink? Remind me to mention that to my fellow Catholics..

The Catholic church requires its members to conform to a set of commands which, if broken, can lead to excommunication. And it considers questioning or speaking out against some of those commands to be heresy.

That would be the very example of conformity I am referring to. As for bigotry and ignorance, I think their position about children born out of wedlock, or the destination of those who don't accept their point of view, or their positions on homosexuality are bigoted and ignorant.

:bow:

Conformity and groupthink? I don't know how to respond to such wacky claims.

Certainly not with with consideration.

Awwww, I was thoughtless...

Now, lets look at these two statements, what can I derive from them?

1. You do not understand the dynamics of society

2. See edit above. SF

3. You dislike my thoughtless way of calling you out on your bollox

1. no explanation as to why you assert that.

2. no explanation as to why you assert that.

3. no explanation as to why it is "bollox".

Hardly a debate, but more a pissing contest.

:shrug:

I can take the hint fellas, you disagree and perhaps you don't like me personally. But I at least attempt to respond to your opposing positions with an open mind and I take the time to read your posts and if I disagree, I state why.

If you won't do me the same courtesy, that's fine, but it's laughable to call it a debate at that point.

Crazed Rabbit

05-22-2009, 02:23

The Catholic church requires its members to conform to a set of commands which, if broken, can lead to excommunication. And it considers questioning or speaking out against some of those commands to be heresy.

That would be the very example of conformity I am referring to. As for bigotry and ignorance, I think their position about children born out of wedlock, or the destination of those who don't accept their point of view, or their positions on homosexuality are bigoted and ignorant.

So requiring Catholics to follow the rules of God is "demanding group conformity"? You could say the same thing about any group of people in the world. Beware! Book clubs require conformity!

At least you didn't try to defend the ridiculous "groupthink" allegation.

Certainly not with with consideration.

I consider only that worth considering.

1. no explanation as to why you assert that.

Because you don't. You act as though a group having rules members have to follow is some great evil.

2. no explanation as to why you assert that.

Because you are. You clearly know nothing of debates between Catholics that are ongoing on a range of subjects. You don't know of the official positions of the Church or what it's members believe.

3. no explanation as to why it is "bollox".

See above. For anyone in the know, it is clear.

I can take the hint fellas, you disagree and perhaps you don't like me personally. But I at least attempt to respond to your opposing positions with an open mind and I take the time to read your posts and if I disagree, I state why.

If you won't do me the same courtesy, that's fine, but it's laughable to call it a debate at that point.

Aww.... You just sit down now while I go get the fainting salts. Really, Pizzaguy, if you're gonna be in the backroom, you need to grow a thicker skin.

CR

Evil_Maniac From Mars

05-22-2009, 02:36

The Catholic church requires its members to conform to a set of commands which, if broken, can lead to excommunication. And it considers questioning or speaking out against some of those commands to be heresy.

So if you don't believe in God or believe in a different definition of God, you might be (in theory, but rarely in practice) thrown out of the Catholic Church. Fair enough.

Then one must ask the question why you're a Catholic anyway if you don't agree with the Catholic interpretation of God. Also whether atheists are conformists for all believing there is no God. Etcetera.

As for bigotry and ignorance, I think their position about children born out of wedlock, or the destination of those who don't accept their point of view, or their positions on homosexuality are bigoted and ignorant.

You know what I was getting at.

Incongruous

05-22-2009, 02:43

[/SPOIL]
1. no explanation as to why you assert that.

2. no explanation as to why you assert that.

3. no explanation as to why it is "bollox".

Hardly a debate, but more a pissing contest.

:shrug:

I can take the hint fellas, you disagree and perhaps you don't like me personally. But I at least attempt to respond to your opposing positions with an open mind and I take the time to read your posts and if I disagree, I state why.

If you won't do me the same courtesy, that's fine, but it's laughable to call it a debate at that point.

1. Why even bother, your concept of society is really out of whack.

2. :laugh4: omg, I am a Catholic and I can tell you witha straight face that you are talking bollox, its not my fault that you don't know it.

3. EMFM would do a better job than me, I can't be bothered debating with a gut who knows nothing about by religion as it is actually practiced.

Go out and talk to some real Catholics, spend time with a priest and his congregation, I dare you to be really critical.:yes:

Man ATPG, If you think this is harsh I would recomend you stay away from any thread to do with Israel/Palestine, Iraq, Repubs and Dems.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

05-22-2009, 03:02

Quite. This is actually fairly civilized for, you know, a bunch of Catholics. We haven't even set Opus Dei on anyone yet. ~:)

Beskar

05-22-2009, 05:55

Catholic paedophile priests aren't just bad taste jokes, they are indeed a fact.

The vatican also protect them by moving them to Vatican city or put them into missionary work in places like Africa and Brazil, away from the authorities.

Seamus Fermanagh

05-22-2009, 06:06

Catholic paedophile priests aren't just bad taste jokes, they are indeed a fact.

True. As is the fact that a vast majority of the clergy are not pedophiles, just as a vast majority of all of us are not. As this fact is, at best, mentioned only in passing, the references to the pedophile scandals that have affected the Church have become more of a club with which to beat up on the church and to try to marginalize it, rather than a means of addressing the specific issue of concern.

The vatican also protect them by moving them to Vatican city or put them into missionary work in places like Africa and Brazil, away from the authorities.

My understanding was that some bishops informed such offenders that they had just "discovered" a vocation for a cloistered monastic existence of solitude and prayer. Incarceration can take many forms.

Sadly too little was done to work with/help the victims of those abuses, and too much was done to "keep things quiet." This is a natural tendency of almost any organization -- but it rarely does more than delay the problem. More of us need to remember that when we're the ones running the organziation.

Samurai Waki

05-22-2009, 06:44

Really, if anger should be directed at any source its not the Catholic Church entirely. I mean the whistle was blown, by fellow clergymen... even if it was thirty years to late. The Irish Government is really more the source of the anger, since they aren't willing to prosecute, hell even Catholic Clergy outside of Ireland are asking why the Irish government is refusing to Prosecute...

I feel I have a certain right in being critical of Catholics (and the only reason why I've left is because I don't believe in Exclusivity within Spirituality), since I was one (in mostly name only) for the better part of twenty some years, most of the clergy as Seamus has said aren't pedophiles, bad, or even slightly bad people. Its amazing how several utterly terrible examples can set the tone for such an enormous organization. Some have said this goes all the way to the top, and all I can say is: Bollocks. It never really left Ireland, much like it never really left the US, small circles of people can keep quiet a lot easier than a really big circle, if it was indeed larger it would not have taken thirty years to finally figure out. The College of Cardinals, and most of the hierarchy for that matter are probably having a major fit over this whole fiasco.

Tratorix

05-22-2009, 07:53

It's sad how some people manage to take a calling meant to guide and teach and use it for things like this. As for the Church, I'm sure they'll send these people a "Sorry you were abused and molested" card in about 500 years.

Tribesman

05-22-2009, 08:38

The Irish Government is really more the source of the anger, since they aren't willing to prosecute, hell even Catholic Clergy outside of Ireland are asking why the Irish government is refusing to Prosecute...

Do you really expect the Irish government to prosecute itself?

Papewaio

05-22-2009, 09:01

The measure of an organisation is not a lack of bad apples, but how it deals with the ones that exist.

Duke of Gloucester

05-22-2009, 09:12

The Catholic church requires its members to conform to a set of commands which, if broken, can lead to excommunication. And it considers questioning or speaking out against some of those commands to be heresy.

You need to be carefuly about your definition of "groupthink" if you are not to expose yourself to the accusation of "bigotry and ignorance". Certainly there is a body of beliefs that you have to accept to be a Catholic, but this is true of all religions. However, "Groupthink" implies everyoe has to have the same opinions as everyone else about everything. If you really think this about Catholics then you are either ignorant or bigotted or possibly both.

As for bigotry and ignorance, I think their position about children born out of wedlock, or the destination of those who don't accept their point of view, or their positions on homosexuality are bigoted and ignorant.

Children out of wedlock - same as everyone else
Destination of those who don't accept their point of view - Lumen Gentium (1964) and Unitatis Redintegratio (1964) make it clear that salvation is open to other Christians and may be open to people who sincerely seek the truth even though they had not found it.
Homosexuality - homosexual tendencies are morally neutral - homophobia and homosexual acts are both imoral.

Clearly ignorance (of what the Catholic Church teaches) on your part but only you can decide whether it is due to bigotry or not.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

05-22-2009, 11:31

I'm going to bow out, it seems fitting the Catholics defend themselves. They don't seem to be having any trouble with that.
:bow:

Rhyfelwyr

05-22-2009, 13:42

And I'm going to step in, just for the lulz. The Irish members will know better than me and a certain one may denounce this as bollox, but I think that this scandal is not so much reflective of the insular, closed ranks views of the Catholic Church as a whole, but instead a reflection of its very central role in Irish society in the past. It's so tied to the national identity you were practically a traitor if you didn't at least go along with the ceremonies and traditions.

Certainly, the Pope is not so intolerant as ATPG suggests. Heck, JP2 even said that Muslims would be joining Catholics in the afterlife. From what I gather, the Catholic Church likes to apply a very broad brush when it comes to Christianity, and their empahasis on good works mean that anyone can reach heaven if they live a good life and get forgiveness in their own way.

Something, of course, a puritan like me will take issue with! :whip:

rory_20_uk

05-22-2009, 14:02

Destination of those who don't accept their point of view - Lumen Gentium (1964) and Unitatis Redintegratio (1964) make it clear that salvation is open to other Christians and may be open to people who sincerely seek the truth even though they had not found it.

It's amazing how these two know exactly what God thinks.

But a good illustration of how even with no direct contact men down the years have either interpreted or announced facts and for some reason this is to be taken as inviolate - even if it directly is at variance to what occurred previously. No writings from the time are used for this, and indeed these are all at best heretical.

Seeking the truth? Sounds very close to Gnosticism. I thought they were all stamped out by the Catholics.

~:smoking:

KukriKhan

05-22-2009, 14:03

Tribesman

05-22-2009, 14:06

It's so tied to the national identity you were practically a traitor if you didn't at least go along with the ceremonies and traditions.
Have you been getting "history" lessons from the H&W orangemen in your circle?

Rhyfelwyr

05-22-2009, 15:52

Have you been getting "history" lessons from the H&W orangemen in your circle?

LOL, it seems we do not know each other's societies quite perfectly. There is this notion that if you ever tell anyone you're a Presbyterian then it means you've got a mural of King Billy on your wall. We have this code where if you say you're Presbyterian it means you're an anti-Catholic bigot, and if you say you're a Christian it means you're a crazy Baptist of the very fundamentalist kind.

But there is an element of truth in what I said I think. I know deism was popular with early Irish nationalist leaders, and even Presbyterians in groups like the United Irishmen, they didn't get things easy under the "Church of Ireland" either. But even in the USA, people don't say they are Irish, they say they are an Irish Catholic. I'm not trying to bash Irish Catholics, in Scotland we had a very similar thing with the Presbyterian church. Obviously due to its less centralised nature it was seen more as OK to go against the official established version, but if you weren't a God-fearing Calvinist you would be ostracised.

KukriKhan

05-23-2009, 03:03

So requiring Catholics to follow the rules of God is "demanding group conformity"? You could say the same thing about any group of people in the world. Beware! Book clubs require conformity!

At least you didn't try to defend the ridiculous "groupthink" allegation.

I consider only that worth considering.

Because you don't. You act as though a group having rules members have to follow is some great evil.

Because you are. You clearly know nothing of debates between Catholics that are ongoing on a range of subjects. You don't know of the official positions of the Church or what it's members believe.

See above. For anyone in the know, it is clear.

Aww.... You just sit down now while I go get the fainting salts. Really, Pizzaguy, if you're gonna be in the backroom, you need to grow a thicker skin.

CR

Just to keep the bases covered, and before PizzaGuy responds, as I'm certain he will, let me ask this question, old friend:

You decry, in depth and ad infinitum in the Police Abuses thread, the misdeeds of law enforcers who abuse their authority and hurt people, AND their cohorts and superiors - indeed, the entire judicial system - for complicity in those abuses by people acting under color of authority. The "Blue Wall" if you will.

And yet, similar abusive behavior, by members of clergy, and subsequent coverups by their superiors - a "Black Wall", if you will - merits a mere shrug, and a claim that 'we're working on it, and you don't know what you're talking about, cuz you're not in the group'?

Sorry mate, you can't have it both ways. Abuse of power is abuse of power. Whether it's someone charged with saving our skin, or someone charged with saving our souls.

I'm with you on most issues, and I had to grit my teeth and sthu at your display in the Police thread, because I have no come-back for the volume of abuse you cite there. It's wrong, and we gotta fix it, quick.

To me, it's the same here: wrong has been done. People have been damaged. Fixing is imperative. Religion be damned. Exemptions be damned. Find and prosecute the damagers, and those who covered it up. Understanding the concept of "forgiveness" is irrelevant to my government's obligation to protect its citizens from abuse.

In my personal opinion.

Crazed Rabbit

05-23-2009, 03:41

You're right Kukri; the abuses and coverups of police and the Catholic Church in the past have many parallels. That's why I didn't post in this thread at first - it was depressing and I figured any of my posts lamenting the actions of the Church would add little.

And yet, similar abusive behavior, by members of clergy, and subsequent coverups by their superiors - a "Black Wall", if you will - merits a mere shrug, and a claim that 'we're working on it, and you don't know what you're talking about, cuz you're not in the group'?

I don't think that's quite right. When me and my fellows here were saying to Pizzaguy that he doesn't know what he's talking about it was in response to his farcical claims of the Catholic Church "demanding conformity and groupthink".

I did not say that the actions of the clergy warranted a shrug - it is disgusting and they deserve severe punishment.

To me, it's the same here: wrong has been done. People have been damaged. Fixing is imperative. Religion be damned. Exemptions be damned. Find and prosecute the damagers, and those who covered it up. Understanding the concept of "forgiveness" is irrelevant to my government's obligation to protect its citizens from abuse.

In my personal opinion.

Quite right. Justice demands punishment And in this instance as well, it appears the onus is on the government to punish the wrongdoers - something they are resisting in both instances.

CR

Incongruous

05-23-2009, 03:43

Just to keep the bases covered, and before PizzaGuy responds, as I'm certain he will, let me ask this question, old friend:

You decry, in depth and ad infinitum in the Police Abuses thread, the misdeeds of law enforcers who abuse their authority and hurt people, AND their cohorts and superiors - indeed, the entire judicial system - for complicity in those abuses by people acting under color of authority. The "Blue Wall" if you will.

And yet, similar abusive behavior, by members of clergy, and subsequent coverups by their superiors - a "Black Wall", if you will - merits a mere shrug, and a claim that 'we're working on it, and you don't know what you're talking about, cuz you're not in the group'?

Sorry mate, you can't have it both ways. Abuse of power is abuse of power. Whether it's someone charged with saving our skin, or someone charged with saving our souls.

I'm with you on most issues, and I had to grit my teeth and sthu at your display in the Police thread, because I have no come-back for the volume of abuse you cite there. It's wrong, and we gotta fix it, quick.

To me, it's the same here: wrong has been done. People have been damaged. Fixing is imperative. Religion be damned. Exemptions be damned. Find and prosecute the damagers, and those who covered it up. Understanding the concept of "forgiveness" is irrelevant to my government's obligation to protect its citizens from abuse.

In my personal opinion.

Bollox there is only a shrug of the shoulders, that viewpoint is endemic of having nothing to do with real Catholics and instead the card board cut out nutters society has come to expect.

"its wrong and we gotta fix it quick" probably sums the view of every fellow Catholic I know on the issue of child abuse, that includes my Priets.

You are saying exactly what most Catholics are saying, you know we are human, much as it must pain you to know it.

You simply fail to see this because you have nothing to do with the community and are ignorant on its positions.

KukriKhan

05-23-2009, 04:14

You're right Kukri; the abuses and coverups of police and the Catholic Church in the past have many parallels....

... When me and my fellows here were saying to Pizzaguy that he doesn't know what he's talking about it was in response to his farcical claims of the Catholic Church "demanding conformity and groupthink".

I did not say that the actions of the clergy warranted a shrug - it is disgusting and they deserve severe punishment.

Quite right. Justice demands punishment And in this instance as well, it appears the onus is on the government to punish the wrongdoers - something they are resisting in both instances.

CR

My abject apologies then, for my misunderstanding. :bow: I agree that PizzaGuy has got the "demand" bit wrong.

You simply fail to see this because you have nothing to do with the community and are ignorant on its positions.

I would not bet the house on this allegation, however insightful you may think it is, Sir.

Incongruous

05-23-2009, 04:40

I would not bet the house on this allegation, however insightful you may think it is, Sir.

Betting is against my religion.

If I am wrong, why make it out as if Rabbit, and those of us with similar positions, were merley shrugging their shoulders? For you must know that this is in no way how we wish our Church to be run.

KukriKhan

05-23-2009, 05:24

Betting is against my religion.

If I am wrong, why make it out as if Rabbit, and those of us with similar positions, were merley shrugging their shoulders? For you must know that this is in no way how we wish our Church to be run.

Therein lies the key, my friend. Forgiveness of sin is one thing, and one applauded, exhalted and prescribed by the Savior. We must strive to understand the evil deeds done by men, for they are without bottom, and possible to we all.

Still... we must also 'render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's'. What is Ceasar's in this day and time is: Justice. Or the Administration of Justice. People hurting people, whether it's cops or priests, should be, and is punishable under law. Particularly, if that hurting happens under colour of authority.

It is quite clear, that:

...this is in no way how we wish our Church to be run.

What is also clear, is that you, or me, as an individual adherant of faith, have Bupkus to say about how we wish...

That is decided by people above our securlar pay-grade. And, as such, those folks are answerable to both god and ceasar.

imho

Crazed Rabbit

05-23-2009, 06:53

Lol.

I just got called a "despicable moron" and kicked out of a blog* for defending this article by Bill Donahue (http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1616) with this post:
So sorry to interrupt the group hate here, but let's get some things straight.

1) He did not brush off the report. He only sought to put some of the hysteria in perspective, pointing out that the Reuters report was sensational. When did Reuters suddenly become so free of bias? He is concerned that the report demeans the real suffering went through by those who were raped by comparing it to getting a slap.

2) He obviously didn't say it all happened in the 1970s. I mean, not only is that taken out of context, but it wasn't even what he said, which was that 82% of the incidents took place before 1970. And he said that in relation to the allegations of physical abuse and lack of emotional attachment; because corporal punishment was more common back then and the 'touchy-feely' revolution hadn't taken over parenting. That doesn't excuse the physical abuse, it puts it in perspective; it happened in a different era with different social values. It also means the vast majority of the wrongdoing stopped happening almost four decades ago.

3) Nor does he say the abused deserved it. He pointed out corporal punishment was more frequent, especially when dealing with what we'd call juvenile delinquents.

4) Nor does he say all those abused were delinquents.

5) He also points out that only 1 in 8 offenders were Priests, so the Reuters headline is again misleading.

6) He correctly points out that the article throws in the numbers of all those not sexually assaulted while throwing around the term abuse - which creates the impression of the abuse being much more wide spread than it is.

Finally -
#15 You are reading it wrong. 30k kids passed through. The number of incidents is only a fraction of that. I'm not sure if the 12% is out of all the incidents or just the sexual-related ones, but it certainly isn't out of 30k kids.

To those claiming 'slapping' is abuse - do you report parents you see spanking their children to child protection services? Sheesh.

To finish, these abuse are of course disgusting. Those responsible must be punished. But I wrote this so that the truth of the matter would come out, and that these real evils done would not be overshadowed by fantastic (as in fantasy) allegations about the level of abuses.

Oh - one final thing. It is the Irish government, not the Church (who's clergy are saying the guilty should be punished before the law), that is refusing to prosecute these crimes.

CR

To which Monsieur blogger's reply was this:

It's amazing, but this is where it seems to be headed -- no matter how disgusting and evil the comments are from people like Donohue, invariably someone will turn up and make excuses for them.

To the despicable morons who are doing that in this thread, I've corrected my post to say "before the 1970s," so you can take your idiotic legalisms, fold them into sharp corners, and cram them into your nether orifices.

All quite exciting. And then I got banned.
EDIT: And this as well:

To the two creeps who just lost their accounts -- don't bother emailing me to complain or spew abuse. Any emails from you will be deleted without reading.
I guess the moral of the story is we should be glad we all have such good debating partners in the scheme of things, and be happy we are at an upstanding site based on killing thousands of little computer men for our pleasure and not some trashy world events site.

CR
*A shiny ballon to whoever guesses! I bet Lemur knows...

Lemur

05-23-2009, 06:56

*A shiny ballon to whoever guesses! I bet Lemur knows...
Hmm, a lot of the sites I read don't have comments sections, but then you specified that it was a blog. A moderated blog, no less.

Slashdot? No. HuffPost? I don't think they moderate their comments, although I don't know for sure. Digg? Maybe. Maybe.

Was it Digg?

-edit-

No, you specify that the blogger responded to you. Not Digg. Hrm. The only site I read that has an individual blogger is Sullivan, and he has no comments section. Wonkette wouldn't be nearly so humorless, and there are something like three authors there. I give up, name the place!

Crazed Rabbit

05-23-2009, 07:13

You've mentioned it, oddly enough in one of our discussions about Sullivan and his thoughts on Sarah Palin's pregnancy...And how this blogger wasn't so tolerant of differing opinions...

I know you can get it.

EDIT: Forgot I wrote this right before I got banned there:

To the despicable morons who are doing that in this thread, I've corrected my post to say "before the 1970s," so you can take your idiotic legalisms, fold them into sharp corners, and cram them into your nether orifices.
Thank you sir! That scratches just the right itch - and you wouldn't believe how it is to get that kind of service when you live with a bunch of rabbits.
CR
If you don't remember, the answer is spoiled - though I know you know of it, even if you don't read it;
Little Green Footballs (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/33730_Catholic_Leagues_Donohue-_Irish_Child_Abuse_Was_No_Big_Deal/comments/#ctop)
Odd, too, since I've read it for a long time and generally agreed with the blogger. But I guess he's the type of guy who bans you for disagreeing. I had heard about it, just never personally experienced it. I suppose it will simply cement my long term move to libertarianism.

Tribesman

05-23-2009, 14:03

Good news ..... the latest court ruling saves the taxpyer at least 70 million , the state isn't eligible because strictly speaking even though it was the State it wasn't the State it was their sub-contractors and the subies have got indemnity .

KukriKhan

05-23-2009, 14:17

Tribesman

05-23-2009, 14:27

That is... stunning.
No , that is the banana republic of Ireland:coffeenews:

Banquo's Ghost

05-24-2009, 11:22

I'm not sure that members have a sense of just how depraved this abuse was. Moreover, whilst the Catholic Church is deeply ingrained throughout the "moral" framework that created such horrors, the fault is far more that of the republic and all the people of Ireland.

It is hard to know where to begin to repair such damage, but the fact that the State hides behind technicality to avoid redress, bodes very badly for the future of our country. The burden of shame consistent with the crimes is eerily absent.

This article (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2009/0523/1224247188209.html)gives readers some sense of the utter bestiality that has been revealed and documented, and some sense of causation. Nonetheless, it is harrowing reading and you should be warned.

Yet, even as mind, reeling from the relentless degeneracy, latches on to such fragmented images, it cannot avoid the larger questions of how and why. What was it about our society that allowed it to consign one in 100 children to a system of deliberate and sustained terror? Essentially, independent Ireland sustained a system of prison camps for kids and allowed them to be run with arbitrary violence, utter depravity and a sense of absolute impunity.

Such institutions are not rare, but they are usually associated either with totalitarian regimes or with the brutalising effects of war. Ireland did not have a totalitarian regime, nor was it at war, but it managed to create, especially for poor children, the effects of both conditions. Some of the methods used in the industrial schools are queasily reminiscent of images from gulags or concentration camps: the shaved heads; the use of humiliation and disorientation to destroy the inmate’s sense of personal identity; the turning of fire hoses on inmates; the setting of dogs on inmates; the beating of inmates while they were hanging from hooks on a wall. Dr Norman Stewart, who lived beside Artane industrial school, and later beside Dachau, was struck, as he wrote to The Irish Times, by the similar local experience of “observing lines of desultory prisoners as they trudged through the neighbourhood on their way to and from their workplaces”.

Tribesman

05-24-2009, 12:00

the fact that the State hides behind technicality to avoid redress, bodes very badly for the future of our country.
Did you really expect anything different?

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

05-24-2009, 12:40

Very good article Banquo, thank you for the link. Perhaps the most disturbing thing is the anecdote at the end about the hmmanity of English prisons at the same time, not something I have heard before.

Not to beat at this again, but it seems to me that a part of the problem is the corporate and monastic nature of the administration. None of these men or women had to go home to a spouse and answer the question, "So, how was your day".

Duke of Gloucester

05-24-2009, 14:20

I'm not sure that members have a sense of just how depraved this abuse was. Moreover, whilst the Catholic Church is deeply ingrained throughout the "moral" framework that created such horrors, the fault is far more that of the republic and all the people of Ireland.

Its an interesting article but I disagree that the blame should go mostly to the state and not the Church. Firstly the Church had direct responsibility for the institutions where the abuse was happening. Secondly, the church itself proclaims standards of behaviour particularly towards children and the poor which were disregarded and subverted in these cases. The church can't claim that the State should have stopped these people behaving in the way they did.

One interesting aspect of the article is that it paints a picture of endemic abuse where emotional and physical abuse were the norm which all "carers" were expected to support. This contrasts with the American, British and Australian scandals which are more about individuals who were allowed to continue and were protected when they should have been stopped and punished.

Not to beat at this again, but it seems to me that a part of the problem is the corporate and monastic nature of the administration. None of these men or women had to go home to a spouse and answer the question, "So, how was your day".

It's an attractive idea, but not, I think, one that can be supported by evidence. Most child abuse happens within the family with the spouse at best turning a blind eye. Whilst these terrible things were happening in Ireland, married men in children's homes in England would have been doing similar things and going home to the wife and behaving quite normally, seeming to the neighbours to have been pillars of the community. It seems that it was much more widespread in Ireland because, if the article is correct, new members of the religious community were expected to fit in with the culture of violence and abuse that had grown up. The fact that these people had taken a vow of obedience to their superiors made it much harder for them to challenge what was going - that would have required real courage and self-confidence. Not that this excuses them. The obedience they swore to would not have included imoral acts which these clearly were. It is yet another sobering reminder of what human beings are capable of.

Kralizec

05-24-2009, 22:58

It found the Department of Education had generally dismissed or ignored complaints of child sexual abuse and dealt inadequately with them.

Child mistreatment was only recognised as a social phenomenon a couple of decades ago. Before that doctors did notice kids coming in frequently with bruises or broken bones but were actually scratching their heads what could cause this. When an American psychiatrist suggested that it may be because a fairly large amount of parents habitually mistreat their kids he was met with disbelief and outrage (not just from doctors, but society as a whole)

Link (http://www.kempe.org/index.php?s=34) (not very informative, but it was the best I could find- the guy doesn't even have his own wiki)

I found it extremely hard to imagine that society as a whole could be so blind to child abuse, but it's the truth - and hindsight is 20/20. In this case it's disgusting that the perpetrators are getting away with less than a slap on the wrist, but that they could do it mostly unnoticed in the past isn't surprising.

Louis VI the Fat

06-11-2009, 13:39

*Thread resurrection!! *

(We are Catholics. We have resurrections)

"Worse than the ordinary miserable childhood is the miserable Irish childhood, and worse yet is the miserable Irish Catholic childhood".

Misery breeds great literature. Which is, not surprisingly then, Ireland great export product. Second only in importance to the export of poor, huddled masses.

The quote above is from Frank McCourt's 'Angela's Ashes'. It tells the story that should be familiar to many posters here: to hell or to America. Though peculiarly in Frank's case, his family chose hell and returned from Brooklyn to Ireland in 1935. Where Frank's family did as the Irish were wont to do for centuries: live a life of misery.

Has anybody read it by any chance? Is it a good book? Will it further my understanding of Ireland, of Catholicism?

miotas

06-12-2009, 03:45

Children out of wedlock - same as everyone else

Are you saying that the church doesn't care if children are born out of wedlock? Because I have met very few people who treat either my parents or myself badly simply because they weren't married at the time. And the very few who did were just hardcore religious nutjobs.

It is horrible that this is happening in the church but it doesn't surprise me. Christianity is basically just a big cop-out. People can steal, kill, rape and just generaly be a big *daisy* and so long as they believe in jesus they will live in eternal happiness.

Lemur

06-12-2009, 03:59

Evil_Maniac From Mars

06-12-2009, 04:10

Are you saying that the church doesn't care if children are born out of wedlock? Because I have met very few people who treat either my parents or myself badly simply because they weren't married at the time. And the very few who did were just hardcore religious nutjobs.

While the Church may not approve of the fact children are being born out of wedlock, it is not the fault of the child, and as such we cannot and the Church does not look down on the child for it. It is the mother's sin and not the child's in the eyes of the Church.

Christianity is basically just a big cop-out. People can steal, kill, rape and just generaly be a big :daisy: and so long as they believe in jesus they will live in eternal happiness.

You really believe that? Seriously?

Gregoshi

06-12-2009, 04:18

Christianity is basically just a big cop-out. People can steal, kill, rape and just generaly be a big :daisy: and so long as they believe in jesus they will live in eternal happiness.
You'd think that on the surface. However, if you REALLY believe in Jesus, you won't steal, kill, etc. And if your belief in Jesus is just lip service, the Man will know and you'll be on the elevator ride down to sub-level 666 - and don't forget to dress for warm weather. Well, that's my understanding of the belief deal.

miotas

06-12-2009, 04:40

You'd think that on the surface. However, if you REALLY believe in Jesus, you won't steal, kill, etc. And if your belief in Jesus is just lip service, the Man will know and you'll be on the elevator ride down to sub-level 666 - and don't forget to dress for warm weather. Well, that's my understanding of the belief deal.
But if a criminal got to end of a long life of being a *daisy* and truly felt sorry about it all then god would still grant him eternal happiness, no? Remember the criminal that Jesus forgave in his last moments on the cross? He would have believed in god for a matter of (hours, days? how long did a crucifiction last) yet he was still granted eternal happiness despite his crimes. Would you let a murderer evade a gaol sentence simply because they were sorry?