Europa barbarorum Online Tournament! [Archive]

Phalanx300

05-23-2009, 21:25

Europa Barbarorum Online Tournament!

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_spartiates.gif

Seeing the succes of the Legion vs. Phalanx tournament by Burebista I thought it would be a good idea to have a new tournament, but this time with not only Legions and Phalanxes, in other words all factions are allowed!

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/celtic/rebel_gaesatae.gif

So will you defend the glory of Hellas? Fight for your tribe? Conquer the steppes? Show the world the glory of Rome? Join now and find out!

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/romani/roman_cohors_reformata.gif

You’ll have to pick a faction for this tournament with which you will stick, together with others of the same faction you will be a team. We’ll keep track of battles between factions and count the wins and losses of factions, to decide which faction is most worthy of being in EB! So come now and defend your faction of choice!

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/makedonia/mak_argyraspidai.gif

General Rules:

1) EB 1.2 will be used, with all fixes installed(even though you should still be able to play without fixes).

2) Hamachi shall be used to play the battles.

Network Name: EBOT01
Network Password: EB

Small guide for online play by Tolg which was made for the previous tournament:

Extensive Multiplayer Guide (by Tolg):

This guide is written so that anyone can understand it. Please just ignore the obvious bits.

Make sure that you have a clean install of:
RTW + Patch 1.3 + Patch 1.5
EB 1.1
EB 1.2
The EB 1.2 Fixes
(Installed in this order)
Check if your firewall allows RTW to access the Internet
Download Hamachi
Install Hamachi and read it's tutorial. It only tales ~2 minutes but helps a lot.
a) Create a Hamachi network (press the triangul button at the bottom left of the Hamachi window, select create network, enter the name and a password and hit OK)
b) Join the network that was created by your opponent. (The triangular button again, join network and enter name and pw of the network)
Now it gets tricky:
Cut your main internet connection.
Start EB using the mp .exe and click "Multiplayer" and "Lan Battle"
Minimize your game (Alt + Tab or Alt + Esc)
Reenable your Internet connection
return to the game and do as described in the previous guide (Step 8).
Don't forget to save the replay once you're done!

[B]3) We will play at 40.000 money, when you have to much money left you can give one chevron (not more!) to some of your units to make up for that disadvantage.

4) You will only be able to pick units for your faction which are shown on the EB website with your faction of choice.

5) Try to go for Historical armies, we're playing EB after all :whip:!

6) No running through other units! Its not the EB way! :peace: In which its also meant that you can't run through enemy units and pike formations with units. Small minor mistakes or prebattle movement will be looked past but once the enemy is close then no more running units through other units.

7) Max 2 Elephants may be used, only by the factions with elephants at the EB site for your faction. (Though you barely have money for a proper army with one elephant). Using elephants also has to be announced before the battle!

8) Roman faction will have to stick with one time period army, so no Camillan units in Republican era!

9) Max 5 non EB site units for your faction, to represent foreign allies if you wish to have them in your army.

Elite Unit Rules:

Max 6 Elite units. With which you must think of elite units basicly :clown:, like elite cavalry, pikemen, swordsmen etc. If you got any question whether a unit is elite or not just ask! General Unit also counts(when you pick a elite unit ofcourse)!

Cavalry Rules:

Max 5 Cavalry, Max 3 heavy Cavalry.

Missle Unit Rules:

Max 6 Missle Units, including missle cavalry and Peltastai.

Steppe Rules(need some changes propably):

Max 20 Cavalry, Max 5 heavy Cavalry.

Max 15 Missle Units, including missle cavalry.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/sweboz/sweboz_hertheganautoz.gif

Jury: Replays will be posted so save your tournament battles! After which we collectively in this tread decide whether it was a legit win.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/baktria_hetairoi_kataphraktoi.gif

Teams:

Sweboz Team:
Phalanx300
Duguntz

Ptolemaioi Team:
MButcher

Romani Team:
Aulus Caecina Severus
Mithick666
spiritusdilutus

Makedonia Team:
Maion Maroneios
IrishHitman
spqrtitus
Sir_Karati

Arche Seleukeia Team:
Fluvius Camillus
HunGeneral

Baktria Team:
antisocialmunkey

Pontos Team:
Apázlinemjó
tsidneku

Epeiros Team:
Knight Of Heaven

Hayasdan Team:
vartan

Koinen Hellenon Team:
xeksirt

Quartadistim Team:
darius_d

Getai Team:
Maris
mountaingoat

My faction of choice will be: The Mighty Sweboz Confederation! I was Koinen Hellenon for Sparta in the last tournament, now I’ll have to be Sweboz for my ancestors! May Teiwaz lead me to victory!

antisocialmunky

05-23-2009, 21:41

Ghaust the Moor

05-23-2009, 21:47

Ohhhh. I wanna join....how do yah join?

Phalanx300

05-23-2009, 22:04

Rules:
-4 Horses, 2 heavy. Not including General(exceptions for steppe factions need to be made)
-4 Missiles. Horses included(exceptions for steppe factions need to be made)

We need some rules about elites and steppe factions.

I was more thinking of max 5 Missiles Horses included.

And yes we need some special rulings on elites and steppe factions. Perhaps something like max 4 elite units?

For Steppe armies, Max 15 Missiles Horses included, Max 5 horses?

And for money, 40.000 which we used on the last tourney is a good sum of money but for cheaper factions then the Hellenic ones like the Romans and barbarians its just too much and we must avoid. 30.000 or 35.000 might do better.

Ohhhh. I wanna join....how do yah join?

You just did :2thumbsup:. You do need to claim which faction you pick though :egypt:.

Ghaust the Moor

05-23-2009, 22:07

I'm gonna have to go with the Epirotes. You can't go wrong with the producers of the second best hellenic general.

Ghaust the Moor

05-23-2009, 22:24

Wait. Does this require playing against other players online? If so then I can't, because my gaming computer is not hooked up to the internet

Phalanx300

05-23-2009, 22:27

Wait. Does this require playing against other players online? If so then I can't, because my gaming computer is not hooked up to the internet

Oh.. Yes it does, kindoff what online tournament means :sweatdrop:.

Gabeed

05-23-2009, 22:33

Unfortunately, I'm going abroad soon, and can't be in this one. Antisocialmunky need not fear my Galatians this time. :egypt:

antisocialmunky

05-24-2009, 00:45

Your Galatians were nice when they weren't being slaughtered to the man... Oh well, good luck and have fun.

I'll play Baktria, KH, or Imperial or Early-Mid Republic Rome... Actually I'll just go with Baktria and their general's bodygaurds of win.

PS. We should also do the 1 or 2 chevron cap with no weapon/armor upgrades. 45K is a good number through the Romans will probably end up chevronning everything.

Jebivjetar

05-24-2009, 02:19

I'm in, as Carthage.

Btw im playing on Hamachi.

I just want to kick some roman asses :whip:

Celtic_Punk

05-24-2009, 03:25

1.1 or 1.2?

I'd like to join. But my faction is undecided for now.

Probably Averni or KH

MButcher

05-24-2009, 04:14

I would love to represent the Ptolemaioi.

I have never played a multiplayer game before, but now sounds like the perfect time to start!

Few questions though:

My EB is rather heavily modded. Will I need to revert back to vanilla EB or just change the EDU back to normal?

And is there a guide on the basics of multiplayer games?

Nachtmeister

05-24-2009, 04:32

My EB is rather heavily modded. Will I need to revert back to vanilla EB or just change the EDU back to normal?

When I tried playing via Hamachi, I ended up doing a complete re-install after only modding
in KH Phalangitai as recruitable without MOT...

And is there a guide on the basics of multiplayer games?

See this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=113629) thread for some replays and discussion of multiplayer battles.

Gabeed

05-24-2009, 06:15

Hey, Phalanx, you should try to convince the Prince of Macedon to join this. :laugh4:

Phalanx300

05-24-2009, 09:52

My EB is rather heavily modded. Will I need to revert back to vanilla EB or just change the EDU back to normal?

And is there a guide on the basics of multiplayer games?

Yes you probably should revert to the vanilla EB version, if you can change everything you've changed back to normal then do that. Otherwise its probably best to revert it. :shame:

Hey, Phalanx, you should try to convince the Prince of Macedon to join this.

He doesn't play mods as far as I know. If you want him in you should just ask him(I can actually bet he'll ban you because he said alot that he doesn't play mods).

Wouldn't know whether he'd join with me in it, we don't really like each other. :dizzy2:

I'll play Baktria, KH, or Imperial or Early-Mid Republic Rome... Actually I'll just go with Baktria and their general's bodygaurds of win.

O Oh. Those guys are deadly, I gues it was with you when just them basicly decided the battle.

PS. We should also do the 1 or 2 chevron cap with no weapon/armor upgrades. 45K is a good number through the Romans will probably end up chevronning everything.

We better not pick anything above 40K, seeing how with 40 we already have to much with non Hellenic factions. I'm actually seeing if there's a more ideal lower money level, like 30 or 35 K.

Knight of Heaven

05-24-2009, 11:20

First i want to say hello to all, this is my first post here, and to say this is a wonderfull mod indeed one of the best i played for rome total war, the historic acuracy, the info. is a sweety candy on a campaing, when you keep track with history and your gameplay, even if your gameplay dont keep at passe is a very good to kown where you are in time :P. Also i liked the AI in battles most chalenging, it give me some suprises, even a battle hardned veteran like me, use to play some dificult mods like SPQR, though the mods are diferent,still aim difirent goals.I have been enjoying this mod very much, im dont have much kownleged of this mod units but i have been doing 2 campains now with the KH, and romani, on H/H,and i had some orgarms when played this campaings lol, very good thing you guys did. As for the multiplayer contest i would like to go in. i hv hamachi i did some battles online with other mods, with good results,but i think online i yet to meet my pairs...lol am i coky? :P i have a profund paxion with helenistc sarissas in the wind from makedonia,and i love those lusitani,my ancestors :) so i go for something neutro like cartage, if its ok with Jebivjetar? i promisse be carefull with friendly fire :P i like to kick some romani asses too,leave some left for me please :P Hanibal and theofones :) lol
i have EB 1.2 vannila with fixes. but never tried EB online via hamachi. You guys may help me with that :P Best regards
And be warned becouse Hanibal is at the doors :) best regards

Aulus Caecina Severus

05-24-2009, 12:02

Maion Maroneios

05-24-2009, 13:00

Fluvius Camillus

05-24-2009, 13:06

Wonderful!

I will certainly join, but which faction to pick...?

I like every EB faction, but if I should choose....

I decided I would like to be the commander of the glorious armies of the Arche Seleukiea!

Splendid Idea fellow dutchmen!:2thumbsup:

~Fluvius

antisocialmunky

05-24-2009, 13:29

I'm going to grab Makedonia then. Note that I'll only play, if you add the following rules:
1) No chevrons. I want pure battles.
2) Mnai cap at least 40,000
3) Phalanx penetration exploit is banned

Maion

Rome and some other factions can't spend all its money. 1 Chevron isn't too much though.

Well I take that back, Rome can get 1 unit of elephants. Elephants need to be limitted to 1 or 2 with the user havign to announce elephants in hte lobby.

PS. You might as well make pretty much all run throughs banned. And don't forget no running cavalry through thick groups of infantry. In the last tournement sometimes run throughs in the thick of battle(especially in trees) were unavoidable so if someone complains it would have to goto the judges.

Also, we could just have a player consensus instead of actual judges when issues are raised so everyone can play.

Aulus Caecina Severus

05-24-2009, 13:37

when i play with maion i use upgrade(because i have too much money), but i do not know this rule.

i agree with you that walking on phalanx is unrealistic...

sorry, my apologize to you maion.:grin2:

i want be as honest as i am in real life:rtwyes:

Duguntz

05-24-2009, 13:37

ME ME ME!!!!!! SWEBOZ Waaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!!!:smash: :smash: :smash:

Romans:whip:
Hellenes:whip:
wich ass to kick first :juggle2:

Fluvius Camillus

05-24-2009, 13:56

Teams? I thougth every faction would be represented by one person? Oh well...

Maion Maroneios

05-24-2009, 13:59

Also, I suggest a 3-fight match for every group. First X player attacks, then Y player attacks, then both attack. The result of those two matches declares the winner. Of course, if X or Y player win twice in a row, they win.

Maion

Phalanx300

05-24-2009, 14:57

hi knight, welcome.
If you want to kick some romani asses, try to deal my monstrous manipular legion.:rtwyes:

thanks to phalanx300, this tournament is very good thing....
Meanwhile, we can have fun friendly matches, search in multiplayer topic your preferred network ... I am often in EB15, croatia EB and greek EB.
I hope to have fun with you and the great generals who attend these networks.:iloveyou:

So Romani it is I gues? :clown:

I'm going to grab Makedonia then. Note that I'll only play, if you add the following rules:
1) No chevrons. I want pure battles.
2) Mnai cap at least 40,000
3) Phalanx penetration exploit is banned

Maion

I totally agree on 3.

But 40.000 is way to much money for the non Hellenic factions, with chevrons we can balance that out. As much as I like the Hellenic factions I'm not going to give them preference. :egypt: But above 40.000 its definately a no.

Best thing would either be: Settle for a lower money in order to have pure battles, settle for 40.000 with unpure units.

Wonderful!

I will certainly join, but which faction to pick...?

I like every EB faction, but if I should choose....

I decided I would like to be the commander of the glorious armies of the Arche Seleukiea!

Splendid Idea fellow dutchmen!

~Fluvius

Another Dutchmen! :beam: So you choose to oppose the Germanic tribes? You will meet your doom in the ancient forests of Germania! :sweatdrop:

Rome and some other factions can't spend all its money. 1 Chevron isn't too much though.

Well I take that back, Rome can get 1 unit of elephants. Elephants need to be limitted to 1 or 2 with the user havign to announce elephants in hte lobby.

PS. You might as well make pretty much all run throughs banned. And don't forget no running cavalry through thick groups of infantry. In the last tournement sometimes run throughs in the thick of battle(especially in trees) were unavoidable so if someone complains it would have to goto the judges.

Also, we could just have a player consensus instead of actual judges when issues are raised so everyone can play.

Yes but that would mean a elephant for every Romani player or else have low spent money. And if we go with EB site units. Its just not going to work out that way.

Yes, that might be best to ban running trough other units with your units.

Player consensus, great idea! :2thumbsup:

ME ME ME!!!!!! SWEBOZ Waaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!!!

Romans
Hellenes
wich ass to kick first

We shall kick both brother! :whip:

Also, I suggest a 3-fight match for every group. First X player attacks, then Y player attacks, then both attack. The result of those two matches declares the winner. Of course, if X or Y player win twice in a row, they win.

Maion

Yes something needs to be worked out for this. But we can better settle for non branches because that'll take too long. Its why the last tournament died out.

Maion Maroneios

05-24-2009, 17:04

OK guys, we just had an epic Hellenes vs Hellenes matchup. Me (Makedonia), Knight of Heaven (Epeiros) and Jebivjetar (Baktria), vs Fluvius Camillus (Ptolemaioi), Phalanx300 (Arche Seleukeia) and ACS (Koinon Hellenon). I'm sure someone is going to upload the savegame soon. Here are a couple of shots I took from the statistics:
https://img34.imageshack.us/img34/3346/rometw2009052418484246.jpg
https://img30.imageshack.us/img30/1148/rometw2009052418484527.jpg

Maion

Fluvius Camillus

05-24-2009, 17:51

Greetings fellow competitors!

As Maion said, an epic battle took place. Note that this is a practice fun battle where random Alexander successors battle each other. Still, you can learn from the tactical masterpieces or errors made in this grand battle.

TEAMS
Team I = Makedonia (Maion) + Baktria (Barcid, also known as Jebivjetar) + Epeiros (Knight of Heaven)
Team II = Arche Seleukeia (Phalanx300) + Ptolemaioi (Fluvius Camillus) + Koinon Hellenon (ACS)

Host = Maion
Mnai = 40000
Unit Scale = Normal (because there are 6 players)
Map = Grassy flatland

The battle was an alliance of the Makedonians, Epeirotes and Baktrians to defeat the opposing alliance compromised of the Ptolemaioi, Arche Seleukiea and the Koinon Hellenon.

REVIEW

Phase I - The Hellenic charge
The Ptolemaioi and the Seleukids teamed up and joined ranks. The hellene allies on the other hand massed their forces together and made a bold move to attack their Makedonian foe's. The brave hellenes charged upon the Makedonian ranks. Makedonia's allies sent cavalry support to defeat the hellenes. The Ptolemaioi and Seleukid teamed up and marched forwards. The hellenes fougth brave, but were without cavalry support. Soon the brave men were surrounded by Makedonian infantry and enemy cavalry. A falx struck the head of the Hellene leader, then the Hellenes were defeated after fierce defense.

https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/EXBA1.jpg
The Hellenes are surrounded and killed.

Phase II - First Confrontation
The Ptolemaioi and Seleukids did not hesitate, and marched forward fast, before the Makedonians and the cavalry could regroup with the Baktrians and Epeirotes. The Ptolemaioi and Seleukid joined ranks faced the joined ranks of Baktria and Epeiros. Both sides fougth hard, but the Ptolemaioi pressured the Baktrian ranks and began surrounding them, same happened at the Seleucid side with the Epeirotes. The Baktrian general lost his life and the Baktrian line began to waver. Baktria and Epeiros withdrew with the troops that could escape the twin trap. The battle took a pause then, again proceeding in skirmishing. Only the Baktrian and Hellene general were dead, the others escaped or won.

https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/EXBA2.jpg
The Baktrians and Epeirotes are surrounded.

https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/EXBA3.jpg
All sides regroup for the decisive confrontation

Phase III - Final confrontation
The Ptolemaioi and Seleukids joined ranks once again, this time to face the Makedonians, who were almost at full strength, and the remnants of the Baktrians and Epeirotes. After some minor skirmishing and troop movement the final confrontation came. The Ptolemaioi and Seleukids had a hard time, both were severely weakened in cavalry from the first confrontation, Epeiros still had quite much cavalry and Makedonia also posessed a large cavalry force. Soon the Ptolemaioi and Seleukids found themselves defending their lives. The Ptolemaioi cavalry was reduced to some skirmishers and the general without retinue. The Seleukids still posessed small amounts of heavy cavalry. The phalanx still was a large mass, but the Ptolemaioi flank guard was thin. At the Seleukid flank the Elites held firm. The Ptolemaioi Thorikitai tried to attack the cavalry, who evaded direct confrontation. The numerical superiority of the three allies on the flanks slowly won. The Makedonian general bravely charged the weakening enemy lines, but lost his life in the pikes of the Ptolemaioi phalanghlitai.

https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/EXBA4.jpg
The brave Makedonian general lost his life in this charge.

The Generals of the twin armies tried to kill the Epeirote general in the meantime, who also lost all his retinue, all generals were fully armoured, and wouldn't seem to die.

https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/EXBA5.jpg
Duel of nobles.

Soon it was clear who were to win, the Triple bond proved to be superior over the two superpowers. Numbers kept collapsing. Makedonian and Epeirote cavalry kept pressuring but the Ptolemaioi and Seleukid troops were well trained and fought till death. The chase of the Epeirote general proved unsuccesful yet again. The phalanx of the Ptolemaioi and Seleukids was more flexilble than expected and hold well against repeated attacks from different sides. The Seleukid elites were finally defeated after an intense long fight. The phalanghlitai tried to hold and fell many foes, but there were too many. Soon the Ptolemaioi and Seleukids were in an even more desperate situation. They tried to take as many enemies with them into the grave. Yet again, the generals dueled, this time 2 generals versus 1, but the Epeirote leader had backup, finally, the Ptolemaioi leader was killed by a charge. The Seleukid lord soon faced the same fate.

https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/EXBA6.jpg
Even two versus one was not enough.

The elites of the Ptolemaioi and the Seleukids were defeated by the strong soldiers of Makedonia, Epeiros and Baktria. The final troops then were surrounded, and could fight no more... The battle was done. Of the 3998 soldiers that came to defend their lands that day, only 613 were able to return home, among them the only leader that witnessed that day, and survived, the Epeirote general, who was able to return home victoriously. The combined forces of the Ptolemaioi, Seleukids and Hellenes were destroyed that day by the combined might of Makedonia, Epeiros and Baktria.

https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/EXBA7.jpg
The last troops were defeated.

Ending screens:
https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/EXBA8.jpg
Screen 1.
https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/EXBA9.jpg
Screen 2.

REPLAY DOWNLOAD
(This is from the Ptolemaioi view)

RAR attachment on forums
160

Zip attachment on forums
161

If you have no unpacker... filesharing site links:

Normal file from Mediafire
http://www.mediafire.com/?5ngzem2yxnj
Normal file from megupload
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=VDMHFYV5

~Fluvius

Gabeed

05-24-2009, 19:45

He doesn't play mods as far as I know. If you want him in you should just ask him(I can actually bet he'll ban you because he said alot that he doesn't play mods).

Wouldn't know whether he'd join with me in it, we don't really like each other. :dizzy2:

haha, I know, I was joking.

HunGeneral

05-24-2009, 20:18

About when will this probeably start?

I would join if it was a bit farther away(pluss I don't use Hamachi, but might try it:juggle2:).

Although my heart and soul would fight for the nomads, there simply too complicated to fight with in Multiplayer (as much as I know) so if possible i would go with the Arche Seleukeia.:juggle2:

antisocialmunky

05-24-2009, 20:51

What EB channel(s) should we use?

Maion Maroneios

05-24-2009, 21:03

If you read Phalanx's first post you'll see.

Maion

antisocialmunky

05-24-2009, 21:05

Well, if anyone want to practice or figure out some rules, I'll be up for it.

Duguntz

05-24-2009, 21:05

Phalanx300, when we'll we have the chance to crush skuls with our stout cudgels and... how do I join, or play... i never played EB online...

Maion Maroneios

05-24-2009, 21:13

Just download and install Hamachi (Google it, its free), and join the EBOT01 group, along with any other you please. When someone is on-line on Hamachi, talk to him and ask him to battle. When you figure things out, just fire up EB Multiplayer and go to Lan Battles. In the Lobby, there should be all players that are online on Hamachi.

Maion

Duguntz

05-24-2009, 21:15

Maion Maroneios

05-24-2009, 21:16

No problem, be sure to ask about anything else if you get stuck along the way.

Maion

Duguntz

05-24-2009, 21:25

when is there a new tournament round? :smash::smash::smash:

Duguntz

05-24-2009, 21:36

Guys, i'll be happy to fight with you (as sweboz!) but tomorow! I've exams in the morning so if someone waht a fight, it'll be with pleasure in the eavening!

Fluvius Camillus

05-24-2009, 22:40

Phew... Finally done:sweatdrop:

I written an enourmous review about our large practice battle on the first page!:beam:

I hope it's a good read:book:

~Fluvius

Maion Maroneios

05-24-2009, 22:56

Excellent review, Fluvius!

Maion

antisocialmunky

05-24-2009, 23:14

Don't forget to add me to team Bactria.

blado

05-25-2009, 00:45

Heh, in my version of that replay the selucids and their allies won. I was using alexander though, so I guess that had an effect. any idea on how to get a normal non alexander version running too?

tsidneku

05-25-2009, 01:40

Sounds fun. :2thumbsup:

Please sign me up as Pahlava.

Duguntz

05-25-2009, 05:29

Sounds fun. :2thumbsup:

Please sign me up as Pahlava.
Pahlava? bah, I'll wait you with your catink and all other units cover in tin! my sweboz clubmen will eat them!

Lol, jokin' of corse! It'll be all of a challenge to deal with your FM

Mithick666

05-25-2009, 06:17

Can i join to romani team?

sign me up as Romani:whip::whip::whip:

Alsatia

05-25-2009, 07:23

Normally a Romani player....

I decide to back the KH or Makedonia, whichever is available :beam:

:smash::smash:
Romani

Apázlinemjó

05-25-2009, 08:01

Wow, I never played EB online before but I would like to try, sign me up with Pontos please. :)

Fluvius Camillus

05-25-2009, 09:54

Heh, in my version of that replay the selucids and their allies won. I was using alexander though, so I guess that had an effect. any idea on how to get a normal non alexander version running too?

Haha lol, what happened then? How does it differ from rome.exe. Playing rome.exe is the only option I think:dizzy2:

Thanks for watching though..

~Fluvius

Fluvius Camillus

05-25-2009, 10:02

Before we start, we should wait until every team is represented right? Also we need to have a good share, not like 5 romani or 5 makedonia and 0 saba.

I am really looking forward to this!:beam: Until then lets practice like we did earlier!:smash:

~Fluvius

Jebivjetar

05-25-2009, 10:14

Phew... Finally done:sweatdrop:

I written an enourmous review about our large practice battle on the first page!:beam:

I hope it's a good read:book:

~Fluvius

Excellent review, Fluvius! :2thumbsup:
It was a glorious experience to play with all of you, guys. And im really proud of my Makedonian and Epirote allys :beam:

Unfortunatley i wont be able to play again untill next month (i have 512 megabytes only allowed and ive already crossed my limit on the internet), so i wish you all a good fights and ill join you as soon i can.

Bye!
I just love you all!!

:beam::beam::beam::beam::beam:

Duguntz

05-25-2009, 11:12

Phalanx300

05-25-2009, 12:47

Normally a Romani player....

I decide to back the KH or Makedonia, whichever is available :beam:

:smash::smash:
Romani

Pick whatever you want, KH is not taken by anyone yet though. :yes:

Heh, in my version of that replay the selucids and their allies won. I was using alexander though, so I guess that had an effect. any idea on how to get a normal non alexander version running too?

At least! Someone with the real version of the battle :beam:.

Ehh, did you got it from unofficial mods? Perhaps there's also a way to undo it then. Otherwise you'd have to reinstall EB.

Can i join to romani team?

sign me up as Romani

Silence Roman, unless you wish for your head to be target practice for our cudgels! :whip:

antisocialmunky

05-25-2009, 12:59

You know, we should also make a rule stating that mercenary units(the ones with the miso... or whatever word in their name) can't be more than 5 in any army or Rome can field phalangites and other sillyness could ensue.

Phalanx300

05-25-2009, 13:05

Not really if we go by Europa Barbarorum site units, though we could go for Max 5 or 6 non site units?

Perhaps a max of 1 Elephant unit is also a idea? With its use said before the battle?

antisocialmunky

05-25-2009, 13:11

I rather go with the EDU since Rome needs its allied troops. I'd also like to force Rome into sticking to one reform period by limiting them to the ROMAN units on the site for their declared tiem period. They can use whatever allies or mercs they want up to the limit. Mercs should also count towards your elite unit counts so we don't have Cretan Spam of death.

Also, I'd say max 2 elephants and you have to say if you're using them. Noone can really afford taht many elephants except maybe carthage.

Knight of Heaven

05-25-2009, 13:33

Excellent review, Fluvius! :2thumbsup:
It was a glorious experience to play with all of you, guys. And im really proud of my Makedonian and Epirote allys :beam:

Unfortunatley i wont be able to play again untill next month (i have 512 megabytes only allowed and ive already crossed my limit on the internet), so i wish you all a good fights and ill join you as soon i can.

Bye!
I just love you all!!

:beam::beam::beam::beam::beam:

Yes indeed good review, nice reading it, what a battle my épirote general wont die, haha hes from Alexander famiy indeed... :laugh4: proud of you all. To bad you will not be playing untill next moth :(
Will miss you on my right flank hehe i have some sreenshots too but i dont konw how to post it :oops:

IrishHitman

05-25-2009, 14:28

I'll join the Makedonia team.

blado

05-25-2009, 16:09

Haha lol, what happened then? How does it differ from rome.exe. Playing rome.exe is the only option I think:dizzy2:

Thanks for watching though..

~Fluvius

Seleucid and Egypt destroyed Bactria and Epeiros. and than Macedonia attacked and got destroyed. Koinon Hellenon still got destroyed though. I was still using EB to watch it but I was using the alex.exe engine

Mithick666

05-25-2009, 16:10

Unfortunatley i wont be able to play again untill next month (i have 512 megabytes only allowed and ive already crossed my limit on the internet), so i wish you all a good fights and ill join you as soon i can.

wait Jebivjetar it is 25 mayo 2009 you just have to wait six days for the nexth month maybe you can join to to the tournament.:idea2:

Silence Roman, unless you wish for your head to be target practice for our cudgels!

lol Barbarian do not worry before the battle ends we will see it :thumbsdown:

I have the skins of the old cohorts but i have not changed any stats
do i need the vanilla skins?

off roll:hi Phalanx300 nice to meet you:2thumbsup:

DaciaJC

05-25-2009, 16:27

I'll play as the Getai as soon as I can figure out this "incompatible game data" out. :wall:

Fluvius Camillus

05-25-2009, 16:41

Seleucid and Egypt destroyed Bactria and Epeiros. and than Macedonia attacked and got destroyed. Koinon Hellenon still got destroyed though. I was still using EB to watch it but I was using the alex.exe engine

Thats how it should have happened:laugh4:

Our middle infantry line was stronger but our cavalry was almost nothing and the flank guards were thinned out too. They had quite a lot cavalry and decent flank units. I knew if they didnt make tactical errors at the second confrontation they surely won. They did not, so we lost. It was an awesome battle to participate in.

~Fluvius

Phalanx300

05-25-2009, 17:29

I'll join the Makedonia team.

Hey Irish, gonna be hard defeating the Macedonians now with Irish and Maion. :sweatdrop:

off roll:hi Phalanx300 nice to meet you

Yeah nice to meet you, do I know you though? :oops:

Mithick666

05-25-2009, 17:45

Yeah nice to meet you, do I know you though?

:no::no::inquisitive:

Jebivjetar

05-25-2009, 19:22

wait Jebivjetar it is 25 mayo 2009 you just have to wait six days for the nexth month maybe you can join to to the tournament.:idea2:

Oh,man, i really wish that, but my internet counter begins on 16. in month, so still, i cant join untill 16.06 :no:

Jebivjetar

05-25-2009, 19:28

Yes indeed good review, nice reading it, what a battle my épirote general wont die, haha hes from Alexander famiy indeed... :laugh4: proud of you all. To bad you will not be playing untill next moth :(
Will miss you on my right flank hehe i have some sreenshots too but i dont konw how to post it :oops:

Yeah, your general really rocked the field, and your molosson agema... i have no words but: exllcellent work :2thumbsup: And Maion really knows with phalanxes :2thumbsup:
Anyway, next time i'll do some better balance of my army and be careful on the field so i wont die so quickly. Man, i've lost my general so fast i didn't know what happen! :laugh4: And these H/A s of mine just didn't need to be there at all :skull:

Maion Maroneios

05-25-2009, 20:06

Yeah people, excellent work everyone. It was a battle I will remember :yes:

Maion

Knight of Heaven

05-26-2009, 17:44

hello all again just want to say i will go with Èpirus in the tournament if its possible. Enjoying playing online with you all :P sign me up please :)

spiritusdilutus

05-26-2009, 17:47

Sign me up as Romani, please :2thumbsup:

vartan

05-26-2009, 21:27

I'm Hai so I'll go with Hayasdan please.

xeksirt

05-26-2009, 22:26

I'd like to join this with KH

Maion Maroneios

05-27-2009, 00:53

I see we have quite some participants. It'll be nice to see some awesome battles. Say, I actually play some battles from time to time with Tournament rules. Should I post any battles here?

Maion

Knight of Heaven

05-27-2009, 03:19

it wil be great man i have some battles replays with tournoment rules myself, but dont kown how to post it :P , still maybe better open a new thread with only battle stories made online, this remain for this tournoment?? i belive theres other people who had replays and screens from other battles too. well just a sugestion :P

tsidneku

05-27-2009, 03:26

Just a quick suggestion before you finalize everything. Maybe we could all schedule a several hour timeslot during a weekend to meet up and play all the matches, as opposed to letting each participant schedule their own matches.

While the latter does work, the previous tournament has proven that scheduling can prove to be a giant problem.

mountaingoat

05-27-2009, 03:59

put me down for casse

antisocialmunky

05-27-2009, 04:24

I'm going to propose that we set the final score to victories / members and make it so that you can only play against someone a limitted amount of time.

Alsatia

05-27-2009, 08:23

Actually, I've changed my mind.

I'll be Roman.

Titus Magnus

05-28-2009, 00:06

Titus Magnus- Ptolemaoi

antisocialmunky

05-28-2009, 02:30

Just so you guys know, the Parthia team has won with its 15 units of missiles. Anything short of phalanx box will lose.

Jebivjetar

05-28-2009, 10:09

Just so you guys know, the Parthia team has won with its 15 units of missiles. Anything short of phalanx box will lose.

Can someone post a reply of that battle? I would really like to see that! :beam:

IrishHitman

05-28-2009, 10:22

Makedonia & Ptolemaic Egypt vs. German & Portuguese barbarians:
(IrishHitman & Titus vs. Duguntz & Knight of Heaven)

http://www.mediafire.com/?nh2i1amjtm2
(http://www.mediafire.com/?nh2i1amjtm2)

It was quite a massacre.

Basically, the Hellenistic plan was to use the rock in Irish marshlands as a left flank while we fought the barbarians head-to-head. However, being barbarians, they decided to run to the cover of a forest. :furious3:

Unfortunately for them, we weren't just going to waltz in there.
We boxed the forest in on three sides and kept our cav moving on the other side, then advanced our pike phalanxes through until we made contact. They made desperate frontal attacks on the phalanxes, and tried a few things with their limited cavalry to no avail.

Attrition against the phalanx, flanking manoeuvres and a few Companion charges did the rest, and the barbarians ran en masse.

Just so you guys know, the Parthia team has won with its 15 units of missiles. Anything short of phalanx box will lose.

Don't be so down, we can spam Cretans :P

antisocialmunky

05-28-2009, 13:11

Cretans are elite and I can make a 5 Parthian Cataphract + 5 HA + 10 archer army or a 5 Cat and 10 HA army.

Duguntz

05-28-2009, 14:41

Yeah, we've been defeated and quiet easily... The worst is that I knew so much that the forest was too small and that opbvously we'd been boxed... then, another mistake, is that Lusothanian were on the Flank and me on the front... while his scutarii could have hold the line while my basternae would cut off their flank, we did the opposite and we've been... crushed... but it was a lot of fun! Anotherone is when I've been cutting KH in the woods I've been beatd again, but I slod my skin veeery expensive... Don't mess with germans in the forest! then... Irish came with hisstack still full (as he was watching from far) and we've been both cutted to pieces... (me and Knight of Heavens)... still, lots of fun!

Phalanx300

05-28-2009, 14:49

I agree with you antisocialmunkey that we should count Cretans as elite units, along with Rhodians and similar units. :sweatdrop:

Also I had this idea:

We give each team 40k in a battle, and the battle will be full team vs full team. That way they will have to work together more and basicly act as one army.

We could give a 20 unit cap to each team to make it more fair and make it so that the army of the entire team has to match tournament rules. (This way a chain of command and pre battle army setup becomes more important)

See it as one army being commanded by either one or more persons. :2thumbsup:

Would anyone actually be interested for such a thing? :sweatdrop:

Edit: And guys feel free to post non tournament videos as well, will boost popularity of the tourney :2thumbsup:. Now play! :whip:

IrishHitman

05-28-2009, 15:58

I agree with you antisocialmunkey that we should count Cretans as elite units, along with Rhodians and similar units. :sweatdrop:

Then I'll have to insist that certain HAs are elite as well.
It simply isn't fair to cap the number of decent archer units on the Greeks if the enemy can spam missile cavalry.
Nor is it realistic, as archers were never "elite" in Greek society...

Duguntz

05-28-2009, 16:13

Then I'll have to insist that certain HAs are elite as well.
It simply isn't fair to cap the number of decent archer units on the Greeks if the enemy can spam missile cavalry.
Nor is it realistic, as archers were never "elite" in Greek society...

no it's different.. Because HA's are the mainstay of any nomad army, to top up them would be like toping up Phalanx for any Hellenes factions... if you want more archers as hellen, just use Toxotai, as they're the mainstay of greek archery and in history cretans were only used as mercenary, but of corse in their homeland... so it's fair to count them as Elite. However i'm not agree to count sligners as elites... even belaric, as the rule of the tournament state : no chevron nor any shit like that...

cheers

IrishHitman

05-28-2009, 16:19

no it's different.. Because HA's are the mainstay of any nomad army, to top up them would be like toping up Phalanx for any Hellenes factions... if you want more archers as hellen, just use Toxotai, as they're the mainstay of greek archery and in history cretans were only used as mercenary, but of corse in their homeland... so it's fair to count them as Elite. However i'm not agree to count sligners as elites... even belaric, as the rule of the tournament state : no chevron nor any shit like that...

cheers

Toxotai are too underarmoured for effective use against HA spam.
Regardless, I could just spam heavily arrow-resistent units then wait.

Maion Maroneios

05-28-2009, 16:29

Hey guys, I decided to post here a battle fought between me and spiritusdilutlus. It was quite surprising, I didn't expect my phalanx army to win an Imperial Legion by attacking :sweatdrop: Oh, I guess we have our bright moments every now and then.
http://files.filefront.com/maion+vs+spirituszip/;13818546;/fileinfo.html

Maion

IrishHitman

05-28-2009, 16:33

Hey guys, I decided to post here a battle fought between me and spiritusdulus. It was quite surprising, I didn't expect my phalanx army to win an Imperial Legion by attacking :sweatdrop: Oh, I guess we have our bright moments every now and then.
http://files.filefront.com/maion+vs+spirituszip/;13818546;/fileinfo.html

Maion

Actually, phalanxes in attack are good, provided you know how to micromanage (which you obviously do), and provided the enemy cannot flank properly.

Knight of Heaven

05-28-2009, 17:25

Actually, phalanxes in attack are good, provided you know how to micromanage (which you obviously do), and provided the enemy cannot flank properly.

That is true, i made a battle with irish(makedonia),vartan(Hayesdan),KOH(èpirus) with spiritus(romani),ASC(romani) i use my phalanxes ofensive, i pin down their infantary while my cavalary goes against their cavalary, while vartan phalanxes surround then it made a sandwich, of pikes , well of course we were more still just to say phalanxes are very good ofensive they dont let enemy infantary move. :P heres the battle http://files.filefront.com/helenesrar/;13818692;/fileinfo.html

Maion Maroneios

05-28-2009, 19:07

Jebivjetar

05-28-2009, 23:31

Nice one, Maion. I really enjoyed watching your brave Macedonians smashing those red ladies :smash::smash::smash:

antisocialmunky

05-29-2009, 00:29

Knight of Heaven

05-29-2009, 02:39

Well, Imperial Legions have far more superior mainstay infantry than what I fielded. Their numbers were also superior, hence I very much doubted the outcome of the battle would be in my favour. But Hetairoi did win the day, after all :2thumbsup:

Not to mention you need very good reflexes and a lot of micromanagement, while defending is usually far easier and you have greater chance winning. Especially with phalanx-based nations like Makedonia.

Maion

Yes and i belive the game is very historical acurate to, becouse is virtualy impossible to take a makedonian type phalanx from the front even if its levy against imperial cohorths the pikes are long and do damage in long time. Allthough i think its not the phalanxes in the game that are overpowered, but our use of roman legionaries had been not proper i belive. The romans in history did beat makedonians armies. in my campaing with the romani i start beating èpiros and makedonian with hastati and princepes, and the reason why is simple i use the chess formation that romans did use, i belive thats the porpuse of Chess formation(to beat phalanx) is impossible in a front a phalanx win becouse while is ataking one cohort, another comes from the back to be on the phalanx flank, of course their aquiles remains the roman cavalary who is not good enough to macth the companion cav. still with spears baking rome cav might do help... anyway its just an ideia i dont play romans i belive facing a hole line of phalanx with this formation requires alot of micro-management,and not easy as it sounds, well thats why romans are kown for great tactics and discipline, it was realy needed on facing makedonian phalanx,and doing the manipule movemants under that pressure,(what a discipline) while wacthing your flanks. its hard playing romani online i belive :wall:

antisocialmunky

05-29-2009, 04:55

Uh huh. You should go watch the replays from phalanx vs legion. You can try to do that to the phalangites but its fairly hard to do. Its better to just avoid phlangites and kill everything around them. Then get them in a box and kill them slowly.

mountaingoat

05-29-2009, 05:10

after a few great warm up battles , i am going to switch factions to getai ... casse are difficult to field a balanced army .

vartan

05-29-2009, 06:10

mountaingoat

05-29-2009, 06:47

Just cause you lost to an Epirote army doesn't mean you should leave Casse. You forgot to use chariots! Now that would have been good. But thankfully, I'd have a counter. But you were facing Epirus, I was facing Romans. You should have looked into a better army lineup!

lol no i had about 3 or 4 more battles after that with casse , using chariots , no chariots , archers , no archers ... different line formations etc ,the cost to field an army with the casse against say bactrian army is very high ... most of the effective shock troops come at high cost + chariots are difficult to maintain in a battle .. sure they would be fine if you knew every tactic with them , but atm i'll go to getai due to their heavier cav and line troops ... much better to break the pointy spears with.

vartan

05-29-2009, 07:01

You won't accept the challenge. The only reason I play Hai is for the challenge. I don't care if they have shitty troops.

mountaingoat

05-29-2009, 07:12

no challenge when you can pick long pointy spears ;)

i like using the casse as you can field such a large variety of troops , but it is not that great against all the tanks , shock cav + pikes which is pretty much what most ppl bring to the field in each battle.

vartan

05-29-2009, 07:23

That's the point. Challenge is all the fun!

mountaingoat

05-29-2009, 08:11

then we should all go no pike except the diadochi .. it's not like getai vs bactria is much better ... but at least there is some chance of survival ....some

Jebivjetar

05-29-2009, 09:26

That's the point. Challenge is all the fun!

And learning too, i would say. I've learned some good-to-know stuffs about fighting certain factions and players in MP- when i lost. It's about learning on your own mistakes, and then you can made some improvements in your tactics/army balancing and so...

For example, playing against Maion, i learned this lession: keep your H/As in great distance from Makedonians with Cretan archers or else!! :clown:

My point is: don't abandon your faction and army if you lose: it's your fault, not theirs: lead them right, and they will bring you victory sooner or later. :2thumbsup:

Fluvius Camillus

05-29-2009, 10:04

Jebivjetar

05-29-2009, 10:26

Edit: And guys feel free to post non tournament videos as well, will boost popularity of the tourney . Now play!

Ok. Here is one Sweboz (Knight of Heaven) vs Macedonia (ACS ?) vs Carthage (Barcid/ me)game:

http://files.filefront.com/3vs3rpy/;13821916;/fileinfo.html

And here is Makedonia (Maion) vs Carthage (Barcid/ me): my first win on MP! :yes:

http://files.filefront.com/BarcidAndMaionrpy/;13821922;/fileinfo.html

mountaingoat

05-29-2009, 10:56

And learning too, i would say. I've learned some good-to-know stuffs about fighting certain factions and players in MP- when i lost. It's about learning on your own mistakes, and then you can made some improvements in your tactics/army balancing and so...

yes obvious , casse are probably one of the most , if not the most difficult faction to field because people bring out complete steamroll type armies with little variety .. but that is cool as you can pick what you want .. but the casse have little chance since their only good troops are elites and you can only have 6 of those :juggle2: , chariots are not really an option as the 40 unit ones are elite .. so bring 4 of them and you are left with 2 elite units .. what are you going to bring .. sword masters ? that is 6 units = total 280 men . put that against just four units of non elite levy pikes and is over 400 soldiers(in open terrain) that will cut the other units down ...

i liked the battles , just did not see the point as staying with them while the tourny is still starting ... even if i won half the practice battles i would probably change .. they require much work when you battle.

Jebivjetar

05-29-2009, 11:41

IrishHitman

05-29-2009, 12:36

And here is Makedonia (Maion) vs Carthage (Barcid/ me): my first win on MP! :yes:

http://files.filefront.com/BarcidAndMaionrpy/;13821922;/fileinfo.html

Carthage beating Makedonia?!?!?

I demand a match immediately.

i liked the battles , just did not see the point as staying with them while the tourny is still starting ... even if i won half the practice battles i would probably change .. they require much work when you battle.
And you think Makedonia and the other Hellenistic factions don't require work?
They most certainly do if you want to be particularly good.

With that attitude, I hope I draw you in the tournament, it will be quite a massacre :P

antisocialmunky

05-29-2009, 13:38

Yes, i understand and agree you... I think that roman players have none of this problems: they can have fullstack of "cheap" hard-core infantry for less money than any other faction...

Anyway, nothing will made me to abandon my Carthaginians :knight:

I would say so in Polybian and Camillian but Marian and Imperial Era is a little different.

@Casse - Don't bother with those chariots against Mediterranian and Asian factions. Though its pretty funny to see them touch my Super Cataphracts and just fall over. They really are skirmishers and mobile fear units.

IrishHitman

05-29-2009, 13:48

Maion Maroneios

05-29-2009, 14:36

Jeb, i just reviewed your replay with Maion.

Maion fully complied with the tournament rules, it is a different story for you...
I counted 1 Sacred Band Cavalry, 5 Elite African Phalanx units, 2 Elite African Infantry units and 2 Iberian Assault Infantry units. That is a total of 10 elite units, the maximum allowed was 6.

I'm not accusing you of malevalent intentions, but you shouldn't get too happy about your victory considering Maion had a distinct disadvantage in that he followed the rules...

I did spot a few problems with Maion's positioning of troops when he approached you though..

Lads, if you're going to fight online, make sure the rules are crystal clear so battles may be fought fairly.
Yeah, it was for fun don't worry about it. I made several mistakes as well, plus I attacked, so I was quite sure I was going to win. Thing is, I had won 3 times in a row against Jebi because I was the one defending. Here are the replays of those battles I aforementioned:
http://files.filefront.com/maionvsbarcid1zip/;13822698;/fileinfo.html
http://files.filefront.com/maionvsbarcid2zip/;13822699;/fileinfo.html
http://files.filefront.com/maionvsbarcid3zip/;13822693;/fileinfo.html

Maion

Jebivjetar

05-29-2009, 14:44

Jeb, i just reviewed your replay with Maion.

Maion fully complied with the tournament rules, it is a different story for you...
I counted 1 Sacred Band Cavalry, 5 Elite African Phalanx units, 2 Elite African Infantry units and 2 Iberian Assault Infantry units. That is a total of 10 elite units, the maximum allowed was 6.

I'm not accusing you of malevalent intentions, but you shouldn't get too happy about your victory considering Maion had a distinct disadvantage in that he followed the rules...

I did spot a few problems with Maion's positioning of troops when he approached you though..

Lads, if you're going to fight online, make sure the rules are crystal clear so battles may be fought fairly.

Oh, elites. Well, only rule we had in our fights was this: no chevroned units. In other MP plays, i follow rules which are made: we usually chat before a battle and decide about them. It's not a strange thing when (in fights between Maion and me) you see like 2-3 elite calvary on each side.

About elite pikemen: agrred: somehow i didn't want to use any mistophoroi phalangites, so i have choose my Africans, they are "flower of Carthagian army", after all :yes:

Anyway, i put this reply because it was my first victory :clown:, and not because i want to made my self important for beating Maion.

Btw he demolished my beloved armies about 4 times before this fight.

IrishHitman

05-29-2009, 15:01

Oh, elites. Well, only rule we had in our fights was this: no chevroned units. In other MP plays, i follow rules which are made: we usually chat before a battle and decide about them. It's not a strange thing when (in fights between Maion and me) you see like 2-3 elite calvary on each side.

About elite pikemen: agrred: somehow i didn't want to use any mistophoroi phalangites, so i have choose my Africans, they are "flower of Carthagian army", after all :yes:

Anyway, i put this reply because it was my first victory :clown:, and not because i want to made my self important for beating Maion.

Btw he demolished my beloved armies about 4 times before this fight.

Why was Maion's army in tournament arrangement then?
That's just strange....

Jebivjetar

05-29-2009, 16:04

Why was Maion's army in tournament arrangement then?
That's just strange....

Look, this battles were my first battles on MP. One day, when i grow up, i will let the newbies to choose any units they like. :clown: These were not tournament battles though: Phalanx300 said: And guys feel free to post non tournament videos as well, will boost popularity of the tourney . Now play!

Btw. is there a list of all elite units which are restricted in tournament? I would like to know, so i can behave accordingly.

Jebivjetar

05-29-2009, 16:29

Btw how could one define a "elite" unit? Or is it only a matter of units name?

IrishHitman

05-29-2009, 16:53

Btw how could one define a "elite" unit? Or is it only a matter of units name?

Stats, history, balance and/or cost.

mountaingoat

05-29-2009, 16:58

Carthage beating Makedonia?!?!?

And you think Makedonia and the other Hellenistic factions don't require work?
They most certainly do if you want to be particularly good.

oh hardly compares with the casse , you play without pikes then mmm ?

With that attitude, I hope I draw you in the tournament, it will be quite a massacre :P

:yes: keep it up , the barb rush is going to reign down >=)

Jebivjetar

05-29-2009, 18:01

Stats, history, balance and/or cost.

I still don't get it... I mean:

1) Stats: do we have exact stat number witch distinguish elite and non-elite units?
2) History: further explanation about that would be appreciated. :clown:
3) Cost: what amount of mnai is limit for distinguish elite units?

I really dont understand, so i ask. I really could not say witch unit is elite and witch is non elite, except those units who are named as "elite".

I dont want to break any rules when going to Tournament :clown: Thats why i'm asking for the list of elite units...

What about calvary? Is every heavy calvary automatically an elite unit? Or?

Maion Maroneios

05-29-2009, 18:08

No, they aren't. Late Legionaires are nice but limitted in their effectiveness since they are a jack of all trades and a master of none. If htey had AP swords, that would be a different story entirely, but they don't. I can make you a pretty big list of what they can or can't do.
Yes they are. Deployed properly, they can easily defeat an attacking phalanx army of the middle quality the Tournament mnai cap allows. I use Keltohellenikoi, Thraikioi Peltastai and Hoplitai usually as mobile flankers, but I'd take an Imperial Cohort over them any day (OK, maybe not for the Thraikioi). Much better stats overall, good stamina, plus excellent morale. His units in that battle I posted lasted like forever, I thought I was never going to win if this kept up. My Hetairoi repeatedly charged their backs, though they kept fighting. It took me a lot more than just troop quality (which wasn't compareable to his anyway, except the cavalry of course) to defeat him.

Usually, the troops that grant me victory are the following:
1) Hetairoi, for obvious reasons. Those guys are monsters, only the heaviest Kataphraktoi can beat them.
2) Kretikoi. I just love those guys, they can cause lots of damage while they can still be used as infantry in times of need as well. Plus, their flaming missiles in the enemy's back spells my victory from time to time.
3) Hoplitai. They are pure tanks. While they do little to the actual combat, a Hoplitai unit in guard mode withstands almost everything. They are one of my favourites, as they are usually the last to flee and are able to hold the line for a long time.

Those are basically the units I count on. Without them, my armies would be an absolute zero. Now in my campaigns I have other tricks as well, but unfortunately the mnai cap doesn't allow me to use any of those awesome elites (Hypaspistai, Peltastai Makedonikoi, Argyraspides), some heavier cavalry (like Thraikioi Prodromoi) units, or good, solid main phalanx lines (like a combination of Hysteroi and Argyraspides). Though I'm quite surprised of how much damage an army as the one I'm forced to use can inflict against even better quality armies.

Maion

Mithick666

05-29-2009, 18:20

IrishHitman

05-29-2009, 18:44

I still don't get it... I mean:

1) Stats: do we have exact stat number witch distinguish elite and non-elite units?
2) History: further explanation about that would be appreciated. :clown:
3) Cost: what amount of mnai is limit for distinguish elite units?

I really dont understand, so i ask. I really could not say witch unit is elite and witch is non elite, except those units who are named as "elite".

I dont want to break any rules when going to Tournament :clown: Thats why i'm asking for the list of elite units...

What about calvary? Is every heavy calvary automatically an elite unit? Or?

1. It's fairly arbitrary, but it is based on combat effectiveness.
2. If it was elite in reality, it is most likely elite in the tournament, unless it is useless in combat.
3. Cost is more of a hint. If something is expensive, it is more likely to be elite.

JinandJuice

05-29-2009, 19:02

I'd like to join as the Arche Seleukeia please.

Jebivjetar

05-29-2009, 19:16

Yes i want too one list of elite units because i have seen in an army 6 Hindus Patiyodha (Indian Longbowmen) and 3 or 4 Sreni Pattya Yoddaha (Infantry Guild Warriors). maybe all the payers must do a list of theirs armies whit wich they will play . and the jury will tell if they are Historical armies.

I dont want to negotiate tournament rules; when i will play tournament, i will follow the rules, whatever these rules could be (because now i see that, when talking about elite units things are pretty much arbitrary)..

Anyway, when i play against someone, i really don't care witch units will my opponent bring to the field. If he wants to spend all of his money on elites, fine with me: btw some of so called "elites" aren't cost-effective anyway (do you know that medium mac phalanx can beat "elite african pikemen"?- i tried that today on custom battle!). So If you ask me, let everyone spend his money on whatever he wants. Stack of elites will always be smaller than medium-balanced army and will probably loose.

And one more thing: i'm afraid that so called "elite unit list" will be generated by people who lost their battles, and when they do loose, they will blame opponents units for being "elite", and not his own tactics. When i loose, i dont't search such an excuses.

List of elites for Tournament would be appreciated though. If there are some rules, i say that these rules must be exact (and not "ad hoc" made).

spiritusdilutus

05-29-2009, 20:17

Jebivjetar

05-29-2009, 20:32

Oh man you have got to see this replay!. (me versus Khan)
I took the role of Romani, while my foe played as Saka Rauka (Anatolia map)
Just watch, no word can describe this.

http://rapidshare.com/files/238635316/smokin__.rpy.html

O, we have another Croatian on the Forum?

Lijep pozdrav, spiritusdilutus! :beam:

Morat ćemo uskoro ti i ja odigrati jednu on-line, hm? :yes:

p.s. upravo skidam i letim pogledati tvoju igru!

weeeeeeee!!

spiritusdilutus

05-29-2009, 21:01

O, we have another Croatian on the Forum?

Lijep pozdrav, spiritusdilutus! :beam:

Morat ćemo uskoro ti i ja odigrati jednu on-line, hm? :yes:

p.s. upravo skidam i letim pogledati tvoju igru!

weeeeeeee!!

oh! I simply wondered when a fellow croat would refer to me!

Lijepi pozdrav i tebi jebivjetre!

Bez sumnje moramo odigrati jednu što prije!

Živio!

Jebivjetar

05-29-2009, 21:35

oh! I simply wondered when a fellow croat would refer to me!

Lijepi pozdrav i tebi jebivjetre!

Bez sumnje moramo odigrati jednu što prije!

Živio!

Well, i didn't noticed you before. I see that you're new in here :-)

Inače, lijepa igra. Igrat ćemo uskoro, imam neki limit na netu tako da valja pričekati do polovice idućeg mjeseca, barem što se mene tiče. Uglavnom, ako ćeš biti ovdje na forumu, dogovorit ćemo se već.

Inače, otvorih Hamachi network za našu vremensku zonu, tako da, ako igdje, naći ćeš me ovdje (a i preporučam ti da se učlaniš u mrežu): ime mreže: Croatia EB lozinka: eb (pripazi na mala slova).

:beam:

spiritusdilutus

05-29-2009, 22:01

Well, i didn't noticed you before. I see that you're new in here :-)

Inače, lijepa igra. Igrat ćemo uskoro, imam neki limit na netu tako da valja pričekati do polovice idućeg mjeseca, barem što se mene tiče. Uglavnom, ako ćeš biti ovdje na forumu, dogovorit ćemo se već.

Inače, otvorih Hamachi network za našu vremensku zonu, tako da, ako igdje, naći ćeš me ovdje (a i preporučam ti da se učlaniš u mrežu): ime mreže: Croatia EB lozinka: eb (pripazi na mala slova).

:beam:

Yeah I`m a newbie!

izvrsna igra! Znam za limit i za cijelu priču,no problem je što ne mogu ući u eb croatia. Odbija mi lozinku iako upišem eb malim slovima.

Jebivjetar

05-29-2009, 22:56

izvrsna igra! Znam za limit i za cijelu priču,no problem je što ne mogu ući u eb croatia. Odbija mi lozinku iako upišem eb malim slovima.

Zaista ne znam u čemu je problem oko logiranja...

Možda si krivo upisao ime mreže: EB Croatia (također pazi na velika slova!)

to the rest of the forum: sorry for offtopic, spiritusdilutus and me will continue this conversation somewhere else. :shame:

Maion Maroneios

05-29-2009, 23:15

I was just about to bask you about tettering in Croatian :beam: Anyway, here are a couple of battles fought between me and ACS. Looks like Makedonia meets her arch-enemy again, Barbaro... erhm sorry Rome.

First battle takes place in Kephallinia, where my mighty phalanxes meet ACS's Polybian Legion. It was a surprisingly easy battle (no offense ACS), plus my laptop lagged. Anyway, here's the replay for you fellas:
http://files.filefront.com/Protecting+Kephalliniazip/;13824736;/fileinfo.html

Second battle takes place in some kind of road to whatever-place. Was too quick with this one and had to spend some time to deploy after the battle started (accidentally pressed "Enter" before forming up). A hard fight here, but in the end I managed to surround his massive number of remaining soldiers and finish them off. My Hetairoi won the day, yet again.
http://files.filefront.com/ACSs+revengezip/;13824737;/fileinfo.html

Maion

Jebivjetar

05-29-2009, 23:22

You really like to beat those ladies in red, Maion :2thumbsup:

Man, i just love you :beam:

Maion Maroneios

05-29-2009, 23:26

You really like to beat those ladies in red, Maion :2thumbsup:

Man, i just love you :beam:
Indeed, I do. Very much also. I love you fellow Romaioktonoi too!

Oh, and please watch the second replay. You'll like the envelopment technique in the end, guaranteed :yes:

Maion

Jebivjetar

05-29-2009, 23:29

Im downloading it right now: i cant wait to see that!

All hail Makedonia and Kart-Hadast!

:clown:

Maion Maroneios

05-29-2009, 23:30

You do so. And the Karchedoi are OK I guess, they did produce Hannibas after all!

Maion

spiritusdilutus

05-30-2009, 00:50

Zaista ne znam u čemu je problem oko logiranja...

Možda si krivo upisao ime mreže: EB Croatia (također pazi na velika slova!)

to the rest of the forum: sorry for offtopic, spiritusdilutus and me will continue this conversation somewhere else. :shame:

It`s alright now jebivjetar, I managed to log in with success. Don`t know what kept me from entering it in the first place.

antisocialmunky

05-30-2009, 02:37

Some early rounds:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/jmzd3ejzklw/HellensJustWin.rpy
http://www.mediafire.com/file/4tn2mjt0lvm/BaktriavsPontus.rpy
http://www.mediafire.com/file/yw2zmmyryyy/IrishMeLose.rpy
http://www.mediafire.com/file/joedhd4zjyn/TotalFail.rpy (elephants suck)

The barbarians factions are going to have a hard time against missile heavy factions and thsoe with phalanxes...
http://www.mediafire.com/file/zdiywmfd2zm/BaktrivsCasse.rpy

Imperial Rome demo, I honestly though their cav was a little better:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/nvzyvhmlyym/RomevsCasse.rpy

Baktria and the Ptolies vs Pontus and Rome. Indian Lbows save my butt.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/1tztytxgomm/BaktriaAndPtoly.rpy

mountaingoat

05-30-2009, 05:20

nice 3v3 yesterday getai , romani & carth vs mak , mak and some kind of steppe peoples :P

http://rapidshare.com/files/238758868/3v3.rpy.html

the battle was myself , spiritus and maris vs maion , antisocialmonkey and irishhitman

will post an AAR of it later.

vartan

05-30-2009, 07:33

When you all say elite units (6 max), you are referring to the units listed in documentation with the characteristic 'Elite', correct? or do you have other methods of determining 'elite-ness', if you will?

Duguntz

05-30-2009, 08:35

No no, For the hellenophiles, it's any kind of units able to beats phalanx wich they consider as Elite
For Romanophlie, it's every units able to crush their armour too easily that they consider as elite
And For the real men who play worthy faction such as Sweboz, Getai, Lusotan, etc, none are consider Elite because anyway we kick their asses!!! :2thumbsup:

Maion Maroneios

05-30-2009, 09:44

because anyway we kick their asses!!! :2thumbsup:
Right, you're proven that on the battlefield countless times :beam:

Maion

Aulus Caecina Severus

05-30-2009, 11:50

about rule: i have 3 question for you phalanx300.

1- successor podromoi and other "medium cavalry with great charge are considered Heavy cavalry or not?
(mean if it is right to have, for example, 3 hetairoi and 1 successor podromoi)

2- triarii are considered as elite unit?

3- samnites are considered as homeland unit for romani?

i think this tournament is an excellent idea to have more fun togheter.. thank you phalanx :iloveyou:

Post Scriptum: in my mind we can thinking about the possibility to have max 2 heavy cavalry instead 3.
this because i ve see that some faction are too strong with unit like hetairoi or katapractoi (plus phalanxes).
2 is right number in my mind because phalanxes+hetairoi are unassailable by many faction(like roman, sweboz, lusitani, casse, gaul, sabin, kH) that haven t strong cavalry.
I see hetairoi exterminated my unit of triarii with only 2 charges!!!!!!! :shocked3:

Maion Maroneios

05-30-2009, 12:48

in my mind we can thinking about the possibility to have max 2 heavy cavalry instead 3.
this because i ve see that some faction are too strong with unit like hetairoi or katapractoi (plus phalanxes).
2 is right number in my mind because phalanxes+hetairoi are unassailable by many faction(like roman, sweboz, lusitani, casse, gaul, sabin, kH) that haven t strong cavalry.
I see hetairoi exterminated my unit of triarii with only 2 charges!!!!!!! :shocked3:
Indeed Phalanx, we had a couple of battles yesterday and ACS complained about the fact I used 3 Hetairoi and 1 unit of Prodromoi. I told him the Prodromoi are classified as Heavy Cavalry if you point the cursor over them, thought their descriptions says "Successor Medium Cavalry". The Prodromoi, in m oppinion, shouldn't be classified as Heavy Cavalry. And that, because of their limited armour and light posture (they are, after all, used to counter fast cavalry and hunt down fleeing enemies). I do agree that they have a tremmendous charge, but that is simply because of their lances.

Now reducing what basically is Makedonia's (for example, this would apply to all or most Successor factions) core of the army, would be irrational and, IMO, a mistake. The limited mnai is already a reason for us Hellen-players to be conservative with our compositions. I, for one, rely solely upon my cavalry to win a fight. I almost always loose the infantry fights at the flanks (see my second replay against ACS, he broke my entire right flank), which basically means that my only hope of winning is defeating the enemy cavalry and deploying good old Hammer and Anvil tactics while having the enemy pinned. If this (the reduction of Heavy Cavalry to 3) as well as the 1 chevron rule for factions that have cheaper army compositions is implemented as official Tournament rules, I'm afraid we're going to have problems. And that, because you will be reducing the power of Hellenistic factions, while boosting the powers of the other factions that get the +1 chevron, as well as the fact that they will have to face weaker cavalry. If I, for example, loose a cavalry fight against an army with 1 chevron I'm doomed. And if, say IF, I win, that will be with severe casualties.

Maion

mountaingoat

05-30-2009, 13:39

steppe rules could maybe be refined a little

Max 20 Cavalry, Max 5 heavy Cavalry.
Max 15 Missle Units, including missle cavalry.

20 cav is the max units .. maybe change it to 12/15?

max archers 6/8 , maybe give them more heavy cav .. up to 5 ?

antisocialmunky

05-30-2009, 14:31

Ya know, I tried a all cav steppe army, and it doesn't quite work out very well because good horses cost too much and the light ones don't have any punch in melee. They also get shredded by missiles. But then again, that was a 3vs3 and my attack vectors were abit constricted.

However, Barbarian factions will get seriosuly messed up by a 'steppe' army of massed missiles. Its too bad no one took Saka for a 1/2 infantry 1/2 horse army. They are the only ones that can really it particularly well.

As for elite status, I would go and read the unit descriptions on the EB sight on in game. Those give you a pretty good idea of what's elite. Also, infantry over ~2400, archers over ~1400, and cavalry over ~3400 are usually elite.

This obviously doesn't work for the Romans. You need to subtract about ~500 from the cost of infantry. I'd rely on the descriptions first and foremost though.

Duguntz

05-30-2009, 14:39

Heroic Victory with Tournament rules. Sweboz (who other than me?) and Getai (mountaingoat)against Pahvalah(Marci) and Saka(Khan). With two nice challenges of 1 unit vs one unit to start sparkle the ennemy... Both falx just completly destroy there Hoplites while loosing 3 guys... then the main battle started by a charge of late Cataphracts on my falx, that went in forest, that ended in desastre because I sprang ambushes from everywhere around. The Cavalry of Getai destroyed the Cav of Saka, then, i drew the pahvlah Pikes in the woods, and ambushed them, when i was cutting them to pieces with falx, and wavering them with as many fear units as I could bring near, He charged me with his remaining Catas, that I ambushed from behind with 3 clubmens (excelent AP dudes), while i took care mostly of the left flank and center, ambushes after ambushes, mountaingoat did a job as good with the right flank and the Saka (wich now I think aout it, I never saw in the wood... he literally cutted them) ... Then, it was mass routing for both pahvalah and saka, and we sedt our light cav to follow them...

i explained the battle cause I can't post it!

DON'T MESS WITH BARBAROI! :whip:

Second victory!!! yahoo!!!:2thumbsup: But it was after 2 defeat :idea2:

pS mountaingoat, can you post the replay?

antisocialmunky

05-30-2009, 15:26

Yeah, catas are good until they get turned into scale mail oreos.

Mithick666

05-31-2009, 04:11

IT is a replay KARTHADASTIM AND ARCHE SELEUKEIA (Maris and Mithick666) VS MAKEDONIA AND BAKTRIA(IrisHitman and AntisocialMunky)

Here is the replay
http://files.filefront.com/Victoriatotalputodeirpy/;13830208;/fileinfo.html

https://img190.imageshack.us/img190/1395/hammerandanvil.jpg

the replay
http://files.filefront.com/Replay8rpy/;13830576;/fileinfo.html

It is Romani(Mithick666) vs Armenia and Pontus(Vartan and Khan)

https://img198.imageshack.us/img198/4069/victoriatotal.jpg

vartan

05-31-2009, 06:42

Great screens! Wonderful battles, too!

Alsatia

05-31-2009, 10:22

I can't get hamachi to work properly.....

(Looks with jealousy at others)

spiritusdilutus

05-31-2009, 10:26

spqrtitus

05-31-2009, 10:36

hi

i'd like to join and play with makedonia

Duguntz

05-31-2009, 11:09

hi

i'd like to join and play with makedonia

NO NO NO NO NO NO... When will people on this forum realise that the only worthy and glorious way to fight is with a cudgel?

SWEBOZ FTW:smash:

mountaingoat

05-31-2009, 11:16

hi

i'd like to join and play with makedonia

:thumbsdown:

oh and welcome :beam:

IrishHitman

05-31-2009, 12:53

:laugh4: Boy!, Mithick sure made the two of you seem like jackasses :laugh4:

You mean how I make you look like a jackass every time I beat your ass up and down the battlefield?
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
:whip::whip:

I was watching Harold & Kumar Escape from G.Bay at the time :furious3:

antisocialmunky

05-31-2009, 13:23

I dunno what's more annoying Irish as a team mate just not trying and slamming everything into the enemy or Irish as a team mate jerking off somewhere and not paying attention :-p.

Maion Maroneios

05-31-2009, 14:15

NO NO NO NO NO NO... When will people on this forum realise that the only worthy and glorious way to fight is with a cudgel?

SWEBOZ FTW:smash:

:thumbsdown:

oh and welcome :beam:
Oh, just zip it both of you. The poor guy just happened to aknowledge the superiority of the most superior of all Hellenic factions. And you barbaroi go on and bask him for his (enlighted, pure and excellent) choise. Don't listen to them titus, and welcome to the fora as a fellow Makedon!

Maion

Duguntz

05-31-2009, 16:13

Oh, just zip it both of you. The poor guy just happened to aknowledge the superiority of the most superior of all Hellenic factions. And you barbaroi go on and bask him for his (enlighted, pure and excellent) choise. Don't listen to them titus, and welcome to the fora as a fellow Makedon!

Maion

Haaaa, can you hear this mountaingoat? It's him, petty Basileus, that corrupt the young and promising generation to the side of Hellenes... spqutitus, Listen the common sens and the voice in you that shouts WAAAAAGH when you see a Romanoi or any pikeman of the son's of Alexander. Listen the call of the dark and nice forest, as much opportunity to ambush as there are trees in the woods. Can you hear the women in front, crying under the weight of your mighty cudgel, of smell the salty blood comming from a fresh axe cut into the flesh of your ennemy... That's my brother, is life
Come and join the mighty Sweboz confederation or the glorious and proud Getai warriors...

(And do not listen to any romano-red-skirt of Hellenes, they try to trick you to their side... you only knows what you really want) :yes::yes::yes:

Cheers!!!

Maion Maroneios

05-31-2009, 16:23

Wow, you are even crazier and fanatical than me, it seems :clown:

Maion

Fluvius Camillus

05-31-2009, 17:28

Greetings competitors!

Today a lot of large battles were fought, I found this one the most exciting!

Host: Fluvius Camillus
Unit Scale: Normal
Mnai per player: 40000
Map: Macedonian Ruins

Ptolemaioi (Fluvius Camillus) + Makedonia (Spiritusdillitus) vs Arche Seleukeia (Maris) + Epirus (Mountaingoat)

Pictures
https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/AWBA1.jpg

https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/AWBA2.jpg
https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/AWBA3.jpg
https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/AWBA4.jpg
https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/AWBA5.jpg
https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/AWBA6.jpg
https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/AWBA7.jpg
https://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt22/Fluvius_Camillus/AWBA8.jpg
REPLAY DOWNLOAD
(This is from the Ptolemaioi view)

.RAR File on forums
172

.zip file on forums
173

If you have no unpacker... filesharing site links to the normal file:
Mediafire normal file
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=5224f2b7c182237e00d27174b47c6657e04e75f6e8ebb871
Megaupload normal file
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=37X7ARDF

Always looking forward to more fights!

~Fluvius

Maris

05-31-2009, 18:04

Hi everybody...this is my first post on this forum...and i would like to join the tournament as Getai...sing me up...
Fluv you are right..that was an exciting battle

Maion Maroneios

05-31-2009, 18:06

Yo Maris! Good to see you posting on the forum as well :wink:

Maion

spiritusdilutus

05-31-2009, 18:12

I dunno what's more annoying Irish as a team mate just not trying and slamming everything into the enemy or Irish as a team mate jerking off somewhere and not paying attention :-p.

you go antisocialmunky! :laugh4:Give him a piece of your mind:laugh4:

And Irish try to lighten up a bit, go hit the soapworks or something, that oughta cheer you up.

spiritusdilutus

05-31-2009, 18:19

mountaingoat

05-31-2009, 18:21

lol relax ..... that as my first go with epirus though ... was a good battle even though my pikes failed ..
anyway i should be going to sleep !

darius_d

05-31-2009, 19:38

Hi guys!

I am new here, and in multiplayer as well, but wish to join too!
My army of preference is mighty Carthage.

I wish to play some training battles.

One remark though:
After some replays and some custom battles I see that Carthage seems to be in numerical disadvantage vs Hellenic or Roman armies, due to unfavorable number of soldiers per unit.
For example pezhetairoi have on average 240 soldiers, roman cohort - 200, while typical units for Carthage is 160 people :skull: (except African Elite pikemen - but this is elite) so this makes creating good Carthage army a bit difficult.

How about introducing also numerical limit for the army, let's say max 3100 soldiers (huge units).

antisocialmunky

05-31-2009, 19:49

No, its fine.

vartan

05-31-2009, 20:49

Unless the games are 1v1 huge, isn't the de facto standard for 2v2 and above seemingly large-mode when it comes to unit size?

darius_d

05-31-2009, 21:02

bump - hamachi denies access to EBOT01 because this network is already full (translated).

any advice please?

Jebivjetar

05-31-2009, 21:34

bump - hamachi denies access to EBOT01 because this network is already full (translated).

any advice please?

EB00 and EB01 seems to be always full. Try some other networks:

Croatia EB pass: eb
Greek EB pass: eb

darius_d

05-31-2009, 21:39

EB00 and EB01 seems to be always full. Try some other networks:

Croatia EB pass: eb
Greek EB pass: eb

Thanks! I connected to the Greek EB. EDIT to both actually.

DaciaJC

05-31-2009, 21:40

Make sure to leave the network when you go offline. The reason the other networks are full is because people don't bother leaving the network when they're not playing, and they still take up one of 16 places in the network.

Jebivjetar

05-31-2009, 21:48

One remark though:
After some replays and some custom battles I see that Carthage seems to be in numerical disadvantage vs Hellenic or Roman armies, due to unfavorable number of soldiers per unit.
For example pezhetairoi have on average 240 soldiers, roman cohort - 200, while typical units for Carthage is 160 people :skull: (except African Elite pikemen - but this is elite) so this makes creating good Carthage army a bit difficult.

How about introducing also numerical limit for the army, let's say max 3100 soldiers (huge units).

Do not underrate mighty Carthaginian army. Iberian troops are very capable: one Iberian assault infantry unit can beat almost any roman kohort in 1 on 1 match.

Example (tried on custom battle)

1) Iberian assault inf wins vs Cohors reformata (27 dead)
2) Cohors preatoria will kill only 35 of Iberian assault inf, and then run away

Elite African infantry will do their job too, but with more casaulties.

antisocialmunky

05-31-2009, 22:09

Today's Battles:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/2myjmzmjhyj/3v3death.rpy
http://www.mediafire.com/file/oj2y5ymzmtm/BaktriaPontus.rpy
http://www.mediafire.com/file/odnmq4trwyz/BarbariansOnAHill.rpy
http://www.mediafire.com/file/mjytyexndmd/Idied.rpy
http://www.mediafire.com/file/elyynomyqmn/Barbariansinwoods.rpy
http://www.mediafire.com/file/maegnn0n3dj/lostinthewoods.rpy

Last one was:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/wkuzyziymmj/IrishIsLame.rpy

darius_d

05-31-2009, 22:15

If Iberian Assault Inf are not considered elite then it's OK.

Jebivjetar

05-31-2009, 22:19

If Iberian Assault Inf are not considered elite then it's OK.

I think they are. Some people are afraid of them :clown:

antisocialmunky

05-31-2009, 22:25

They are elite and somewhat scary.

Mithick666

05-31-2009, 22:35

It was a very closed Victory great battle guys.

Makedonia,Baktria and AS( IrisHitman,Antisocialmunky and Mithick66) vs Casse,Karthadastim ans Sweboz (Khan, Sr Karati and Duguntz)

here is the replay

http://files.filefront.com/Closevictoryrpy/;13834217;/fileinfo.html

https://img268.imageshack.us/img268/9828/victoriacerradaw.jpg

Jebivjetar

05-31-2009, 22:39

They are elite and somewhat scary.

Indeed.
They also eat small children :clown:

Duguntz

05-31-2009, 22:41

Anyway, Elite is so arbitrary!!! As soon as someone get his ass seriously kicked by someone who used good his soldiers, he'll say that it's elites spamming and that he could do nothing... I mean, It's almost if because my clubmen can beat Catank (and they actually do, due to their marvellous AP bonus), they should be considered as Elite. That's non sens. please, for the sake of everybody having fun in that tournament (and out of it, using tournament rules) somebody post a list of Elites... At least, each one specialised in a faction could post the elite of his faction so we'll be sure and not cry ELIIIIIIIITES, when the other just tacticly ate us...

Or just do like me... I loose often with my sewboz, and never I complained of too many Elites... (What I do complain about is that there's nobody that want to host a game in a forest battlemap. And I mean forest, a whole one, not a bunch of trees in the middle of the map!!! Because only there Can my Sweboz do marvelles! Khan knows it! Oh, and in the winter is even better!)

(Just joking Khan, I really enjoy playing with you, one your side or the other!)

Cheers to all

Jebivjetar

05-31-2009, 22:46

vartan

05-31-2009, 23:19

Anyway, Elite is so arbitrary!!!

Sorry, but it's not quite so 'arbitrary' when you actually look the unit up in the roster. :yes:

Make sure to leave the network when you go offline. The reason the other networks are full is because people don't bother leaving the network when they're not playing, and they still take up one of 16 places in the network.

Yup. Some people even mentioned this several times, in the old and the recent Hamachi Groups threads especially. It's all about getting the message across. I wonder about one thing though. If somebody is inactive indefinitely, and never signs off, how can he 'leave the network'? Is there like a network owner that can free up the space? If so, the scary thought would be, what if the network owner IS that person that is on indefinite hiatus? Then that network name is dead forever?! Unless Hamachi automatically removes inactive networks...anybody have a clue?

DaciaJC

05-31-2009, 23:47

I'm fairly certain that the creator of the network can boot people off the list. And if that network-creator is inactive, people are sure to find out and will simply create a new network.

darius_d

05-31-2009, 23:58

So I'm just after a first test with Sir Karati edit: who was playing Macedonia.

In short - my Carthage received a hard beating :dizzy2: (I was so excited that didn't save a replay, sorry!).

Essentially this was a fight against long closed wall of spears :wall:, my enemy had just a few of other units - some archers and supporting spearmen to counter any attack from behind, and only a 2 light cav for support.
So facing such a long closed wall was not funny at all.
I had more flexible units - 3 units of long pikes, and then many good infantry from Iberia and North Africa, plus 3 missile units.
My idea was to try to split this spear wall in two, forcing enemy units to move and try to confuse it in process, but such manouvering requires a lot of micromanagement and perfect coordination so errors are inevitable. I added to my misery by losing too easily much of my cav in attempt to attack his cav and generally rear, but frankly I don't believ that would chnage too much.
So it was like my enemy was waiting for me behind his spear wall and was exploiting my errors (cretan archers).

I wonder if such a battle is possible to win by Carthage.

antisocialmunky

06-01-2009, 02:54

Sorry, but it's not quite so 'arbitrary' when you actually look the unit up in the roster.

Read the description of your unit on the website or the game. That's the way you determine l33tness.

In short - my Carthage received a hard beating

Carthage its weird. Its pseudo hellenistic. I usually run into ridiculous elite african pikemen armies which are good against low end phalanxes. You'd probably have to play like the KH except unlike the KH, you have the heaviest western cavalry in the game as well good assault infantry. They also have awesome Numidian archers.

vartan

06-01-2009, 05:54

Read the description of your unit on the website or the game. That's the way you determine l33tness.

LOL, why rehash what I said?

Boy!, Mithick sure made the two of you seem like jackasses

Thanks spirit. I love your compliments. They are appreciated greatly.

You mean how I make you look like a jackass every time I beat your ass up and down the battlefield?

And I wish to compliment you Irish, for your honorable sportsmanship. =]

Oh and people who are inactive should really get off the network when not playing. Just read the Hamachi Groups thread. It's like unwritten law guys.

mountaingoat

06-01-2009, 07:12

just watched the replay from that epic battle mithick posted ...

was awesome , took some screens from the middle of battle ... one thing to note though , khan and whomever was carth seem to of taken way more than 6 elites to the field..

anyway , some screens

https://img46.imageshack.us/img46/640/sweboz.jpg

https://img46.imageshack.us/img46/1425/carth.jpg

https://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2333/casse.jpg

https://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5269/charge.jpg

https://img46.imageshack.us/img46/8717/mak.jpg

Sir Karati

06-01-2009, 09:28

In short - my Carthage received a hard beating :dizzy2: (I was so excited that didn't save a replay, sorry

Hey, i have the replay!!!

http://www.mediafire.com/file/5nx1hkwclzj/9MacVsCarV.rpy

It was a very nice battle

Duguntz

06-01-2009, 09:34

Yeeepeee!!! Yeah, we'got beaten on that one (mountaingoat posted some nice pics) Haaa... But my Sweboz still did a great job on the right flank. Was a close defeat... Although I kinda ate those Catank.. We can see them doing bang bang on some armour with their wonderfull axes... question : Falx units (Basternae are reruited in my Faction (not regional) MIC. In gawjam-Basternae. It's one of my Basic unit and one of the rare that save me against armour. Still, people argue me that they count only as merc. But I still say that's not fair as they're some basic units of Sweboz rooster. I mean, Getai can recruit them, but only in regional mic, (not the Draps, the Basternae) so then, it's allies... But when we can recruit them in factional MIC, i'm sorry, I still argue that it's part of faction unit, and not Allie or Elite or what so ever other shit like that... and anyway, to take Basternae from Sweboz, wich is the most effective unit against armour, it would be like tosay to the nomads : not more than 6 missile! (But in my case, it's 5, as some people who are affraid of them don't want that I foeld a lot! so they say that it's merc... NOT AT ALL!)

IrishHitman

06-01-2009, 09:53

just watched the replay from that epic battle mithick posted ...

was awesome , took some screens from the middle of battle ... one thing to note though , khan and whomever was carth seem to of taken way more than 6 elites to the field..

Who won that by the way?
I crashed, got extremely pissed and left my computer running a virus scan....

Yeeepeee!!! Yeah, we'got beaten on that one (mountaingoat posted some nice pics) Haaa... But my Sweboz still did a great job on the right flank. Was a close defeat... Although I kinda ate those Catank.. We can see them doing bang bang on some armour with their wonderfull axes... question : Falx units (Basternae are reruited in my Faction (not regional) MIC. In gawjam-Basternae. It's one of my Basic unit and one of the rare that save me against armour. Still, people argue me that they count only as merc. But I still say that's not fair as they're some basic units of Sweboz rooster. I mean, Getai can recruit them, but only in regional mic, (not the Draps, the Basternae) so then, it's allies... But when we can recruit them in factional MIC, i'm sorry, I still argue that it's part of faction unit, and not Allie or Elite or what so ever other shit like that... and anyway, to take Basternae from Sweboz, wich is the most effective unit against armour, it would be like tosay to the nomads : not more than 6 missile! (But in my case, it's 5, as some people who are affraid of them don't want that I foeld a lot! so they say that it's merc... NOT AT ALL!)
Bastarnae aren't elite....

Duguntz

06-01-2009, 10:08

Who won that by the way?
I crashed, got extremely pissed and left my computer running a virus scan....

Bastarnae aren't elite....

Your team won Irish! but closely! Hmmm, I didn't said elite. I was stating that too many people say that they're Mercenary... but I still argue that they're not merc for Sweboz.

IrishHitman

06-01-2009, 10:16

Your team won Irish! but closely! Hmmm, I didn't said elite. I was stating that too many people say that they're Mercenary... but I still argue that they're not merc for Sweboz.

Without a Bastarnae faction, I think you're right.
They're normal units for both Sweboz and the Getai...

Maion Maroneios

06-01-2009, 10:27

Looks like you're having quite a party with me studying :sweatdrop: Oh, I'll be in today. Maybe even play a battle or two :yes:

Maion

mountaingoat

06-01-2009, 10:50

They're normal units for both Sweboz and the Getai...

the only reason i am thinking that they would be classed as allies / mercs ... is due to this game rule

You will only be able to pick units for your faction which are shown on the EB website with your faction of choice.

check the page , they only show up under eleutheroi

Phalanx300

06-01-2009, 11:04

the only reason i am thinking that they would be classed as allies / mercs ... is due to this game rule

check the page , they only show up under eleutheroi

Yes they don't show up, yet Cretan archers also don't show up on Makedonia page etc. while they are definately a Greek unit. Same with Bastarnae except they are a Germanic unit. Need some revising I gues.:shame:

Also people, when you're not in the tourney please leave the Hamachi group. And if you're unactive please exit the group so that other players who are active can join, already had several complains about that. :whip:

Also, we might need a lower Mnai level after all, the non Hellenic factions are put in a bit of disadvantage because of the high Mnai.

Maion Maroneios

06-01-2009, 11:09

Also, we might need a lower Mnai level after all, the non Hellenic factions are put in a bit of disadvantage because of the high Mnai.
And put us in a clear disadvantage? I would strongly vote against lowering the mnai cap any further. Would you care to explain this supposed "disadvantage" of non-Hellenic factions? Have you ever considered that the Hellen players might simply be better (don't mean to insult anyone, nor to praise myself or any other Hellen player), or that the occassions in which Hellen players won against non-Hellen ones were due to several factors that worked in their favour?

Maion

Phalanx300

06-01-2009, 11:10

And put us in a clear disadvantage? I would strongly vote against lowering the mnai cap any further. Would you care to explain this supposed "disadvantage" of non-Hellenic factions? Have you ever considered that the Hellen players might simply be better (don't mean to insult anyone, nor to praise myself or any other Hellen player), or that the occassions in which Hellen players won against non-Hellen ones were due to several factors that worked in their favour?

Maion

Try playing as a Barbarian faction Vs a Hellenic faction, Anti did and he suddenly supported such a thing.

When going full stack vs fullstack the Hellenic faction is going to be in advantage because of its superior quality.

And seeing the elite levy units of the Hellenic factions it isn't that small a disadvantage, only when you still keep taking medium only level with many elites army.

I can't get hamachi to work properly.....

(Looks with jealousy at others)

Sorry Alsatia for the late reply, what seems to be the problem?

mountaingoat

06-01-2009, 11:18

Yes they don't show up, yet Cretan archers also don't show up on Makedonia page etc. while they are definately a Greek unit. Same with Bastarnae except they are a Germanic unit. Need some revising I gues.:shame:

do not the getai train them to?

Also, we might need a lower Mnai level after all, the non Hellenic factions are put in a bit of disadvantage because of the high Mnai.

was thinking about this before as i played a few 20k mnai games , they were interesting due to the complete change in lineup on the field, seemed to be much better for those battles , though this was barb vs barb battles.

Maion Maroneios

06-01-2009, 11:19

Try playing as a Barbarian faction Vs a Hellenic faction, Anti did and he suddenly supported such a thing.

When going full stack vs fullstack the Hellenic faction is going to be in advantage because of its superior quality.
That is simply a fact about Hellenic factions. Non-Hellenic factions already have a lot of mnai to spend for many types of units, which in turn means that they can experiment with different types of armies. That, for us, is a luxury. We have to stick to certain (semi-cheap) units plus our precious heavy cavalry (which takes up the bulk of our mnai), which doesn't leave us with much choise.

I believe the purpose of the Tournament is to show the EB members which faction is actually the best, or at least deserves to be to be praised. Not to bring both factions down to exact the same level and determine the winner. Give all factions the same restrictions and a considerable amount of mnai (corresponding to the expenses of each faction in order for players to field a decent quality army) and put them in a battlefield to determine the best through a series of battle rounds.

Basically, what I want to tell you is the following: If you lower the mnai cap, you deliver a serious blow to the Hellenic factions (due to the expenses, which in turn result in a lower quality army), while non-Hellinic ones are (almost) unaffected. This results in a shift of power exclusively towards the non-Hellenic factions, which I would recognise as favouring only them. That, if you ask me, should simply be banned instead of implemented.

Maion

Maris

06-01-2009, 11:20

Phalanx300

06-01-2009, 11:27

hi...i think that bastarnae units should be consideraded as mercenaries....they are celto-germanic tribes, but they migrated to Moldavia and Ukraine around 200 BC..so they aren't sweboz units or getai units...just my opinion

In their description they are clearly called Germanic units who migrated to that area. Their city on the campaign map even has a Germanic name and you can train Germanic units their. :2thumbsup:

was thinking about this before as i played a few 20k mnai games , they were interesting due to the complete change in lineup on the field, seemed to be much better for those battles , though this was barb vs barb battles.

20K would be going a bit to low perhaps, more thinking of 30k perhaps. :sweatdrop:

That is simply a fact about Hellenic factions. Non-Hellenic factions already have a lot of mnai to spend for many types of units, which in turn means that they can experiment with different types of armies. That, for us, is a luxury. We have to stick to certain (semi-cheap) units plus our precious heavy cavalry (which takes up the bulk of our mnai), which doesn't leave us with much choise.

I believe the purpose of the Tournament is to show the EB members which faction is actually the best, or at least deserves to be to be praised. Not to bring both factions down to exact the same level and determine the winner. Give all factions the same restrictions and a considerable amount of mnai (corresponding to the expenses of each faction in order for players to field a decent quality army) and put them in a battlefield to determine the best through a series of battle rounds.

Basically, what I want to tell you is the following: If you lower the mnai cap, you deliver a serious blow to the Hellenic factions (due to the expenses, which in turn result in a lower quality army), while non-Hellinic ones are (almost) unaffected. This results in a shift of power exclusively towards the non-Hellenic factions, which I would recognise as favouring only them. That, if you ask me, should simply be banned instead of implemented.

Maion

Pezhetairoi + Agrians + Hetairoi = Semi Elite? :clown:

As I edited in above, Hellenic faction have a big bulk of superior levies which were greatly used.

Giving all factions much mnai is strongly favouring Hellenic factions only. Lowering the Mnai forces Hellenic factions to either use a smaller army or use some levies as well. Right now we are favouring Hellenic factions because of the Mnai.

Bringing them at the same level as you said makes the tourney more fair, whats the point in a tourney if some factions already have a strong advantage? :sweatdrop:

mountaingoat

06-01-2009, 11:32

In their description they are clearly called Germanic units who migrated to that area. Their city on the campaign map even has a Germanic name and you can train Germanic units their. :2thumbsup:

yes but they migrated there , and look at the way their style , like the drap :yes: ... hehe but eitherway i would not bring more than 5x on the field anyway :sweatdrop:

btw , when is the tourny going to start & teams made etc ... this is 3v3 tourny ?

Aulus Caecina Severus

06-01-2009, 11:41

hey guys, i made a new Hamachi network that is always free.

This because i kick out (maybe everyday) all members who are inactive. :yes:

than the network is open to all people, but if you doesn t leave your slot after use i kick out you.

so, if there aren t 16 members active, you can always join this network.:2thumbsup:

this is network for person who was annoyed of see network full.:smash:

The network is EBFREE password EB

remember only for active slot.:rtwyes:

Maion Maroneios

06-01-2009, 11:41

Pezhetairoi + Agrians + Hetairoi = Semi Elite? :clown:

As I edited in above, Hellenic faction have a big bulk of superior levies which were greatly used.

Giving all factions much mnai is strongly favouring Hellenic factions only. Lowering the Mnai forces Hellenic factions to either use a smaller army or use some levies as well. Right now we are favouring Hellenic factions because of the Mnai.

Bringing them at the same level as you said makes the tourney more fair, whats the point in a tourney if some factions already have a strong advantage? :sweatdrop:
Of those units you mentioned, only the Hetairoi are elite. And they cost a whooping 4,000+ mnai per unit. Pezhetairoi are a Medium Phalanx unit, in case you didn't know. Plus, 4 Pezhetairoi already cost 4x2,000=8,000 (roughly). Add about 12,000 for 3 units of Hetairoi, and oyu already have spent 20,000 mnai and actually even more. This is more than 50% of the mnai you already have. And this is just 7/20 units. You have less than 20,000 mnai to spend for another 13 units. Lowering the mnai would be a killing blow, believe me. Unless you want to see Deuteroi armies and 1 unit of Hetairoi only, which will almost surely result in us Hellen players being in a very unfavourable position.

And giving all factions much mnai isn't favouring any faction at all. The Hellenic factions just happen (?) to have superior quality armies, as you also stated. Over and out. We can't do something about that, that is a fact. I believe people are failing to understand this. The 40,000 mnai limit is already forcing us to use levies, or to simply use less than 20 units. For example, I frequently use Deuteroi, Akontistai and Sphendonetai. Do they count as elite to you, or anyone for that matter? No. The only elite units I use, are Hetairoi and Kretikoi. Others occassionaly use Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou (Seleukid players) or some other elites, but this results in less units. Superior numbers and some good maneuvering along with good reflexes are enough to win over such an army.

Bringing them to the same level means lowering one's power while favouring the other. Is it our fault that Hellenic factions tend to perform better? Or better; that Hellen players actually have to think of a strategy instead of charging an enemy army head-on and rely on superior manpower and numbers? This, of course, goes to Getai and Gallic players. I know I'm probably wrong here, but there are true parts in what I said. Isn't it historical, for a Hellen player to perform so well when substantially supplying his phalanxes with good cavalry?

Maion

Phalanx300

06-01-2009, 12:10

Of those units you mentioned, only the Hetairoi are elite. And they cost a whooping 4,000+ mnai per unit. Pezhetairoi are a Medium Phalanx unit, in case you didn't know. Plus, 4 Pezhetairoi already cost 4x2,000=8,000 (roughly). Add about 12,000 for 3 units of Hetairoi, and oyu already have spent 20,000 mnai and actually even more. This is more than 50% of the mnai you already have. And this is just 7/20 units. You have less than 20,000 mnai to spend for another 13 units. Lowering the mnai would be a killing blow, believe me. Unless you want to see Deuteroi armies and 1 unit of Hetairoi only, which will almost surely result in us Hellen players being in a very unfavourable position.

And giving all factions much mnai isn't favouring any faction at all. The Hellenic factions just happen (?) to have superior quality armies, as you also stated. Over and out. We can't do something about that, that is a fact. I believe people are failing to understand this. The 40,000 mnai limit is already forcing us to use levies, or to simply use less than 20 units. For example, I frequently use Deuteroi, Akontistai and Sphendonetai. Do they count as elite to you, or anyone for that matter? No. The only elite units I use, are Hetairoi and Kretikoi. Others occassionaly use Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou (Seleukid players) or some other elites, but this results in less units. Superior numbers and some good maneuvering along with good reflexes are enough to win over such an army.

Bringing them to the same level means lowering one's power while favouring the other. Is it our fault that Hellenic factions tend to perform better? Or better; that Hellen players actually have to think of a strategy instead of charging an enemy army head-on and rely on superior manpower and numbers? This, of course, goes to Getai and Gallic players. I know I'm probably wrong here, but there are true parts in what I said. Isn't it historical, for a Hellen player to perform so well when substantially supplying his phalanxes with good cavalry?

Maion

Agrians are definately an elite units. And I know Pezhetairoi aren't a elite unit yet they are a professionally trained unit. I would call suck an army far from semi-elite to be honest.

I've actually not yet seen any levy units for Hellenic factions with this tourney.

You keep talking about better generals, yet when you have certain factions with a big advantage that doesn't really apply that much anymore. As I said before try playing a Barbarian faction vs a Hellenic faction.

Bringing them at the same level means bringing them at the same level and not prefering any faction, thats the EB way. :sweatdrop: Besides when things are at the same level then it depends on the better general.

Maion Maroneios

06-01-2009, 12:22

Phalanx300

06-01-2009, 12:26

Agrianikoi are not en elite unit. Far from. Maybe excellent ambushers and assult units, but I wouldn't put them on par with, say, Hypaspistai. And watch my replays to see that I, for one, field levy units. But the Tournament hasn't even started, has it?

The Agrianikoi definately are an elite unit, an elite light infantry unit. Just look at their stats, and you just said that you consider Cretans as elite.

Yet again, you fail to see the point. Better quality is something that just applies to Hellenic factions per default. Can't you understand that? As you said, its the EB way to bring them to the same level and not favouring any faction. But by lowering the mnai limit you are favouring the non-Hellenic factions. Not only that, but you are (at the same time) lowering the strength of Hellenic ones.

Ofcourse I understand, which is why we must make up for it to make it a more fair tourney and not only favour the Hellenic factions.

By lowering the Mnai you are making things more fair, lowering the strenght of Hellenic ones? Yes to make things more equal for the non Hellenic ones. And you seem to think only the Hellenic ones get to spend less money. :sweatdrop:

The Hellenic have bigger strenght by default, this we can't deny, which is why we must make up to it.

Maris

06-01-2009, 12:28

Phalanx300 maybe you need to make some rules only for hellene factions and keep the mnai at the same level

Duguntz

06-01-2009, 12:29

Yo!!! About that that reducing the Mnai would put the Hellenes at a clear disadventage... that's pure bul...it*! I've seen the price of maks and hellenes units and they're really equivalent to my sweboz unit... except that if I put my best (suppose I was complotly stupid, for the sake of an example), so if I put my BEST unit against your worst pike, i would been wooped form the map in no time... Maion, I don't want to destroy your argument, but whatever army we field, any player with pikes have clearly a strong adventage anainst ANY battle formation a barbarian player could field, and that, no matter the general. And don't complaint that your Heratoi are so damn expensive and that is your disadventage, because the Swebos heavy cav is also 4500 mnai, and cannot compare to Hellenic heavy cav. Yeah... I fought at 20 000 mnai (that's too low, I agree, but again, as an example)and suddently, the balance turned in my favor and and ''nearly'' exterminated the KH player (with a pike based army)... The fact is that your units, let's say 1400 mnai to 2000 mnai (bulk of an army) count in normal scale 60 guys, well with sweboz, they're all at 40 or 50... at the end, barbarians are always at least 200 men under hellenes, without saying the pike adventage you've got...

Well, I'm bashing on nobody, but to put down the mnai wouldn't put any disadventage to hellenes (as our units cost the same!!!!!!!!!) but would actually give a chance to barbarians to beat them (what Hellenes players know and that's the reason why they don't want to lower the price....)

give less mnai and more woods!!! :whip:

I mean what's that : we can't be on equal therm as historically hellenes were better, so let's keep our overhelming adventage? no no no... let's put everybody even and let's see who's the best faction! and the way to give everybody the same chance is to lower the mnai...

Maion Maroneios

06-01-2009, 13:15

*Sigh*

Duguntz, defeating a pike army relies solely upon the ability of outflanking the enemy. If you do that, you achieve victory. The Sweboz have much superior close combat infantry, which basically means that if I have even less money to spend, even the Agrianikoi (which as I said are an elite LIGHT infantry unit, not a unit that would be classified as elite according to the Tournament rules) - which I probably won't be able to even afford - will count as nothing. Now imagine fighting Deuteroi, Hoplitai and some crap levies, along with (maximum) 1 Hetairoi unit. I wouldn't like that, doesn't sound fair to me.

And dude, Germanic tribes didn't exactly have a good reputation of cavalry. It was mighty expensive, and their quality could not be compared to Hellenistic cavalry. Hence the great cost you described. And please, tell me how much your typical army costs (or better with how much you're left when done). No upgrades whatsoever. I am left (typically) with about 30-100 mnai.

Maion

antisocialmunky

06-01-2009, 13:16

This is tricky, I've seen barbarians manage to give me a run for my money but they always ALWAYS run out of steam.

Its not even archers or anything its just that phalangites are ridiculously good against non-phalangites. I wouldn't mind testing the 35K budget, 45K budget for barbarians but hellens are limitted to 40K, or a 18 unit limit for non-barbarians though. It does even out in the woods a little bit though but it isn't really isn't a contest. What the barbarians need are more numbers or staying power to spend.

I wish the Barbarians had more numbers, that'd be fun but usually the huge phalangite unit sizes give the greeks the bigger army. The same problem existed in RvG where the Romans usually where outmanned by the greeks.

@Phalanx. I know I've played you with levy phalangites and my levy indian longbows ... Though granted, Irish takes a hoplite and phalangite army and carries levy slingers. I don't remember what Maion takes.

@Maion. Have you actually tried to fight a phalangite army with a non-phalangite army under tournement rules? I have, and out flanking just doesn't work. That's real life, in the game, the phalanx can just easily turn aside. It wouldn't be bad if the phalanx could be meaningfully pinned but it usually kills the pinning unit too quickly. To beat a phalangite army, you have to keep the phalangites busy(usually avoiding conflict but keep threatening them), kill everything but them, and then finally start the slow process of killing them.

IrishHitman

06-01-2009, 13:34

Lowering the mnai would just result in Hellenic factions being incapable of winning, and would assure Roman dominance....

It is not impossible for barbarian factions to beat us Hellenes at 40k, it has happened to us before.

A great example is the battle in the desert that we fought.
It was three hellenic factions versus three barbarian factions.
(Makedonia, AS & Bactria vs. Sweboz, Casse and Carthage).

It was extremely close, and only sound tactical thinking later on saved our bacon.
Remember, attrition works in favour of non-Hellenic factions in every fight except a head on assault on a wall of sarissas, and that's what we see in that battle.

Maion Maroneios

06-01-2009, 13:38

Finally, someone who gets some facts right. And what you said about phalangites ASM is nonsense. Even an attacking pikewall wakes a lot of time to grind down the enemy and make them rout. See my battle against ACS for example (the first one), what spelled my victory were my Hetairoi, not the phalangites attacking. He was just unable to surround and outflank me.

Maion

antisocialmunky

06-01-2009, 13:40

But have oyu tried that against barbarians. They friggin evaporated. The only units that I could get to hold the line were hoplites I found on the roster.

IrishHitman

06-01-2009, 13:46

But have oyu tried that against barbarians. They friggin evaporated. The only units that I could get to hold the line were hoplites I found on the roster.

Charging them into the pikes isn't the way to do it, clearly.
That was the barbarian's tactical fault, not the Hellenes' problem.

Duguntz

06-01-2009, 13:51

Maion, when i finish my army, I've maybe 200 mnai left... Your army isn't AT ALL more expensive than ANY OTHER. Duh... don't you think that i'm fighting Pikes from front? Of corse I flank them, and charge from rear... Appart if you have heavy cavalry (wich, Sweboz haven't in plenty, you know it!) we must put almost all our guys on one unit of Pez., of corse, you've 3 Heratoi that come on my back, because not only your army isn't more expensive, but you got more men... I'm sorry men, but Hellenes are CLEARLY overpowered compared to Barb. It's only normal to equilibrate by some way, the army! Just for the fun : Try sweboz against an experianced Mak or AS player... we'll see if it's still fair! Yeah, true that Sweboz have a very good shok infanrty pool (perhaps even the best in game with Wild-men and Basternae) but all those adventages are nothing when you need 3 falz to rout a pike FROM BEHIND... So before saying that to beat phalanx is so easy to flank them, try it before! i know a deal about it!
For everybody : I'm not saying that we should underpower Hellenes faction, not at all... I say that we should give chance to somebody else than them to win a fight!... pikes plus superior numbre... Only way i can fight that EVEN with magistral tactic, would be in the forest in the winter... but what? is there any Hellene player wich youle choose a forested battleground? and when a barbarian player host a fight in their adventage (let say a giant forest in the winter!) no player join...

Maion Maroneios

06-01-2009, 13:59

darius_d

06-01-2009, 14:01

Hey, i have the replay!!!

http://www.mediafire.com/file/5nx1hkwclzj/9MacVsCarV.rpy

It was a very nice battle

thanks, man, I am going ot look at that a bit. Your army composition was interesting.

mountaingoat

06-01-2009, 14:08

Maion Maroneios

06-01-2009, 14:19

i think we should get some kind of offical map set for the tourny ... we all picking whatever , but maybe there should be a select 4 or 5 .. maybe one flats , one with some hills , some trees , plains etc.
Indeed, I agree with that. Plus, as I have proposed in the beginning, fights can be split into 3 phases. First X player attacks Y player, then vise versa and if we have 1 victory for each one, we can go on to both players attacking each other to determine the final winner. Now we could have the defender choose the field of battle, perhaps?

Maion

Phalanx300

06-01-2009, 15:46

Relax dude. Are you sure your armies are as expensive as you say? Because if it is as such and we all have equally expensive armies, we wouldn't have this debate. But it happens not to be only between the Swebozez and the Makedones, you know Duguntz. And I didn't say it's easy to outflank a pikewall, I said it's possible. And is it my fault that we have greater numbers and better quality? Wasn't (historically) that the case as well? I don't remember the Romaioi winning due to better quality armies, but with large numbers which they had plenty at their disposal and excellent leadership along with iron discipline and determination. Same with the "barbarian" factions. Didn't they get slaughtered on even terrain when faced with a disciplined army? I only recall them winning any major battles due to either tactical brilliance, or simply because of a well-coordinated ambush. If not, simply with number superiority.

Maion

You are underestimating the Germanics here, Caesar himself said that the Sweboz he faced(in even terrain) was the most discipled army he had ever seen. Germanics also applied shieldwalls, wedges, reversed wedges, semi-pikeformation(shieldwall with pikes), ambushes, loose and dense formations, professional warriors etc. A very versatile army.

Imagine yourself a Roman legionary, you see these Germanics all crying out their loud warcries, which was sacred to them as according to them that could decide the outcome. Now here they come marching discipled at you, with standards and with what seems to be a Phalanx! Then you'll realise all those stories about wild barbarians with no disciple was just bullshit and you'll shit your pants. :clown:

And then we aren't even talking about ghost and animal warriors :clown:.

And thats a good idea Maion.

About the Mnai, I gues it just needs further testing before we apply something new.

mountaingoat

06-01-2009, 17:04

i think we need a list of all elites by faction and agree on what is elite for future battles.

maybe we can just post what we know then combine it into a single post

i'll start with getai

Phylakes Daoi (Dacian Bodyguards)
Ktistai (Dacian Noble Cavalry)
Ischyroi Orditon (Elite Dacian Infantry)
Komatai Epilektoi (Dacian Elite Skirmishers)
Komatai Agrianai (Dacian Elite Archers)
Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi (Elite Thracian Infantry)

as for baktrixa

Baktrion Agema (Baktrian Royal Guard)
Peltastai Makedonikoi (Hellenistic Elite Infantry)
Somatophylakes Strategou (Baktrian Early Bodyguard)
Hetairoi Kataphraktoi
Hindus Patiyodha (Indian Longbowmen) ???
Sreni Pattya Yoddaha (Infantry Guild Warriors) ???
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai (Indo-Greek Noble Hoplites)

i would say yes for those with the question beside them

fill in if you have more or add to some

Maion Maroneios

06-01-2009, 17:14

Makedonia:

1) Argyraspides
2) Hetairoi
3) Peltastai Makedonikoi
4) Hypaspistai
5) Toxotai Kretikoi

Probably missing some, I'll be back on those.

Maion

Phalanx300

06-01-2009, 17:24

Sweboz:

Skadugangonez (Naked Black Painted Germanic Infantry)
Wargozez (Animal Warrior Fanatics)
Marhothegnozez (Elite Germanic Cavalry)
Thegnozez Druguloi (Elite Germanic Infantry)(Bodyguard unit is the same unit basicly and also counts as elite)
Baltic frontiersmen, don't know their native name. (Elite Baltic Archers)

Also Maion, the Agrianikoi should definately be classified as elite, their price and their stats proove that for them. :sweatdrop:

Knight of Heaven

06-01-2009, 17:46

Relax dude. Are you sure your armies are as expensive as you say? Because if it is as such and we all have equally expensive armies, we wouldn't have this debate. But it happens not to be only between the Swebozez and the Makedones, you know Duguntz. And I didn't say it's easy to outflank a pikewall, I said it's possible. And is it my fault that we have greater numbers and better quality? Wasn't (historically) that the case as well? I don't remember the Romaioi winning due to better quality armies, but with large numbers which they had plenty at their disposal and excellent leadership along with iron discipline and determination. Same with the "barbarian" factions. Didn't they get slaughtered on even terrain when faced with a disciplined army? I only recall them winning any major battles due to either tactical brilliance, or simply because of a well-coordinated ambush. If not, simply with number superiority.

Maion

Well i think you right , but let me give my opinion, about the sweboz, i think they are a litle week, then in historicaly had been, i mean they should be stronger, at leats have better cav, they were kowned by their great cavalary, and in EB i find sweboz cav very lame, remember they never been conquered, even romans had a lot of troubles with then of course the terrain , the woods etc, still...
i did win with helens in the woods but was hard and plus my team mate had more elites then it should, although dont think it was the main reason its hard for a bastarne defeat a phalanx even in the woods if you cover your flanks properly.
Oh and historicaly the barbarians of the north had always more numbers, thats the main reason for the migrations, to look for food sorces etc. now its true is very hard for barbarians fight on open terrain but is also very hard for helenes fight on the woods, but its not impossible either one beat each other in this conditions... just more harder, i find the problem is not the units but maybe in the setting. What to do? let it be ramdom the map, or have a battle in each every one map type(mean, woods and plains)
And one thing i noticed is the larger numbers of Hetarioi in the game, as well maybe other units, i mean they were historicaly shorter in munbers at that time, i saw distinguesd hoplites shorter in numbers as well maybe other units why not the hetarioi. Dont get me wrong i love those guys and i think they are the best cav in the game, but to be historicaly accurate..., and im based on their description

Phalanx300

06-01-2009, 17:57

Well i think you right , but let me give my opinion, about the sweboz, i think they are a litle week, then in historicaly had been, i mean they should be stronger, at leats have better cav, they were kowned by their great cavalary, and in EB i find sweboz cav very lame, remember they never been conquered, even romans had a lot of troubles with then of course the terrain , the woods etc, still...
i did win with helens in the woods but was hard and plus my team mate had more elites then it should, although dont think it was the main reason its hard for a bastarne defeat a phalanx even in the woods if you cover your flanks properly.
Oh and historicaly the barbarians of the north had always more numbers, thats the main reason for the migrations, to look for food sorces etc. now its true is very hard for barbarians fight on open terrain but is also very hard for helenes fight on the woods, but its not impossible either one beat each other in this conditions... just more harder, i find the problem is not the units but maybe in the setting. What to do? let it be ramdom the map, or have a battle in each every one map type(mean, woods and plains)
And one thing i noticed is the larger numbers of Hetarioi in the game, as well maybe other units, i mean they were historicaly shorter in munbers at that time, i saw distinguesd hoplites shorter in numbers as well maybe other units why not the hetarioi. Dont get me wrong i love those guys and i think they are the best cav in the game, but to be historicaly accurate..., and im based on their description

Good points.

For the map, we can do what Maion said, the defender gets to pick the map. In a best 2 out of 3. Yet the third map should be totally random.

Knight of Heaven

06-01-2009, 18:03

Èpeirus Elites are:

Molosson Agema(epeiros heavy cavalry)
Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi (agrianian assault infantry)
Chaeonion Agema(epeirote elite phalanx)
Pheraspides
hypaspistai
Elephantes indokoi
Toxotai Kretikoi(cretan archers)
Hipeis thessalikoi(thessalian heavy cavalry)-i mean if cretan archers are elites why not this one, they have excelent stats,as good as Molosson maybe, or Xystophoroi
Sphendonetai Rhodioi(Rhodian slingers)

Jebivjetar

06-01-2009, 18:30

Carthaginian elites:

1) Sacred band infantry
2) Sacred band calvary
3) Elite Liby-phoenican infantry
4) Elite African infantry
5) Iberian assault infantry
6) Iberian lanceari
7) Elite African pikemen (or maybe not?: they loose against Pezhetairoi: i've tried on custom battle)
8) Elephants

I don't know about Liby-phoenican calvary: compared to stats of Hellenic medium calvary, they are pretty much the same, but much slower... So i propose that they shouldn't be counted as elites.

Fluvius Camillus

06-01-2009, 19:11

The Factional Elite Infantry of the Arche Seleukeia

Khuveshavagan (Persian Heavy Cavalry)
Galatikoi Lavotuxri (Galatian Heavy Cavalry)
Hellenikoi Kataphraktoi (Hellenic Cataphracts)
Argyraspides (Hellenic Elite Phalanx)
Hypaspistai (Hellenic Royal Guard)
Pheraspides/Peltastai Makedonikoi (Hellenistic Elite Infantry)
Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou (Hellenic Elite Spearmen)
Hetairoi (Companion Cavalry)
Elephantes Indikoi (Indian Elephants)
Elephantes Kataphraktoi Indikoi (Armoured Indian Elephants)

These may be debateble, I say they are not elites
Toxotai Syriakoi (Syrian Archers)
Thorakitai (Hellenic Heavy Spearmen)

Is this a regional elite?
Galatikoi Tindonatae (Galatian "Wild men" Infantry)

I might expand/change this list later on..

Also, Phalanx300, It's disciplined (van gedisciplineerd, een disciple is een soort volgeling).

And, the Germanic superior cavalry was at later times, not BC. Newer tribes were settled in the times of the Roman Empire. Remember that we are talking about Sweboz from an earlier time, not Varus' enemies under the command of supreme Arminius. More about fighting styles like the Cimbri and Teutons which Marius faced, I think these are compareble to Sweboz after the reform. The Germanic victories were to the enemy incompetence/own superior tactics(Teutoburg), advantage in numbers (Arausio) or terrain advantage (Teutoburg).

I know the Germans are not WIldmen like in movies. But that discipline might be there, but I think less than at the Roman/Hellenic side. They were brave and encouraged, men that fougth hard. In EB time frame, I see them as very skilled ambushers, strong warriors, but lack of formations like Romans/Hellenics. They are brave, strong built warriors, but if a man is critically cut open by a gladius or stabbed by a sarissa, no matter how heroic he is, he can not fight on.

~Fluvius

Apázlinemjó

06-01-2009, 19:17

Pontos elite units:

Chalkaspides (Pontic Elite Phalanx)
Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi (Elite Thracian Infantry)
Galatikoi Tindanotae (Galatian "Wild Man" Infantry)
Sphendonetai Rhodioi (Rhodian Slingers) - [If the Cretans are elite, then they are too]
Harmata Drepanephora (Scythed Chariots)
Pontikoi Strategoi (Pontos Late Bodyguard)
Skuda Uaezdaettae (Scythian Noble Cavalry)
Khúveshávagán (Kinsmen Heavy Cavalry)
Khúveshávagáné Shávhár (Royal Kinsmen Heavy Cavalry)
Misthophoroi Toxotai Kretikoi (Mercenary Cretan Archers)

Phalanx300

06-01-2009, 19:27

Also, Phalanx300, It's disciplined (van gedisciplineerd, een disciple is een soort volgeling).

I know, small spelling mistake. :sweatdrop:

And, the Germanic superior cavalry was at later times, not BC. Newer tribes were settled in the times of the Roman Empire. Remember that we are talking about Sweboz from an earlier time, not Varus' enemies under the command of supreme Arminius. More about fighting styles like the Cimbri and Teutons which Marius faced, I think these are compareble to Sweboz after the reform. The Germanic victories were to the enemy incompetence/own superior tactics(Teutoburg), advantage in numbers (Arausio) or terrain advantage (Teutoburg).

Look at EB Sweboz units, there is a heavy Germanic cavalry unit with very good celtic gear.

I know the Germans are not WIldmen like in movies. But that discipline might be there, but I think less than at the Roman/Hellenic side. They were brave and encouraged, men that fougth hard. In EB time frame, I see them as very skilled ambushers, strong warriors, but lack of formations like Romans/Hellenics. They are brave, strong built warriors, but if a man is critically cut open by a gladius or stabbed by a sarissa, no matter how heroic he is, he can not fight on.

I don't really like just believing steriotypes, just read all Sweboz unit discriptions and you'll get a good idea.There's no reason to believe a profesional Sweboz warrior who fought from youth didn't have better disciple then the Roman legionair.

And Caesar said it himself. :clown:

Fluvius Camillus

06-01-2009, 20:18

Phalanx300

06-01-2009, 20:43

Are we including bodyguards as elites now too?:dizzy2: I thougth that there was 1, a standard unit which guards your captain. Of course that weird spamming of more bodyguards is against the rules??

@ Phalanx300

That there are quality cavalry troops available does not make them regular. How much do you think the Romans used the Equites Extraordinarii. The cavalry units may be quality, but certainly an exception.

I will read the unit descriptions when I have time

Again as with the cavalry, surely the Sweboz fielded fine nobles and heroes. I stated earlier I do not see the Germans as the stereotypical savage. There are ordered brave men, but also armour quality is something they lose at. Of course there are high nobles in numbers, but these men are not the bulk of the army, these are the elites (as limited by the rules). These men should be used for tactical decisive maneuvres which decide the outcome of the battle, not form the entire army.

Also, I will try to fight a phalanx army as the sweboz soon, as advised.

~Fluvius

Which is why I putten them in my Sweboz elite list. We're agreeing from the start here.:sweatdrop:

Armour was indeed very rare, only for nobles and high up bodyguards of warlords. Swords were rare as well. With cudgels Germanics adapted to kill those with armour, instead of wearing armour.(For the ones who wear armour)

And spamming bodyguard units, you might be right about it not being too historical. I mean some factions have a generals unit and basicly that exact same unit as an ordinary units. Maybe we should make a rule of max 1 generals bodyguard? Except for factions who have bodyguard unit as ordinary unit(assuming you pick the ordinary unit ofcourse!).

Knight of Heaven

06-01-2009, 21:08

Well as for the sebowz, i belive at that time they had pretty good cavalry, i remenber that caesar in his conquest of gaul he hired teuton cavalry,as well the legendary batavian cavalry, an elite and unstopable germanico belgae shock cavalry he use those guys later on in the roman civil war. And this was bc, i recomend a reading of The Gallic Wars by julius Caesar.

These may be debateble, I say they are not elites
Toxotai Syriakoi (Syrian Archers)
Thorakitai (Hellenic Heavy Spearmen)

well i belive the toxotai Syriakoi is elite, they are pretty good and have very good armor, if cretans are elite, syrian should be elite as well
Thorakitai, is not a elite i belive, it doesnt make much sense, they are a little expensive compared to other spearmens, but they only have is a good heavy armor, relative to hellenic spearmen

Fluvius Camillus

06-01-2009, 21:13

Which is why I putten them in my Sweboz elite list. We're agreeing from the start here.:sweatdrop:

Armour was indeed very rare, only for nobles and high up bodyguards of warlords. Swords were rare as well. With cudgels Germanics adapted to kill those with armour, instead of wearing armour.(For the ones who wear armour)

And spamming bodyguard units, you might be right about it not being too historical. I mean some factions have a generals unit and basicly that exact same unit as an ordinary units. Maybe we should make a rule of max 1 generals bodyguard? Except for factions who have bodyguard unit as ordinary unit(assuming you pick the ordinary unit ofcourse!).

Okay, then we agree!:2thumbsup:

About the bodyguards, I think everybody should use the bodyguard of their faction, and then just one of them, to protect the captain.

The only exceptions that can use normal units as bodyguards I can think of are:

Koinon Hellenon
Somatophylakes Strategou/Spartiates Hoplitai.

Of course everybody can switch early/late guards.

But the standard bodyguard is excluded from elites then right?

~Fluvius

IrishHitman

06-01-2009, 21:56

Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi (agrianian assault infantry)
Meh, they're not that cost effective.
Including a few units is useful, but spamming them wouldn't be as cost effective as having 1.5-2 times as many hoplites.

I suspect they have gained an unnecessary legend due to their history, and successful use by players.

As for the cost issue, what matters is how well the armies would perform at lower levels of mnai.
Hellenistic cavalry advantages would be wiped out, leaving attrition as the only option left, and as I said earlier, that is bound to mean a massive increase in losses for Hellenic factions as a result.

darius_d

06-01-2009, 22:02

As for the factions declared, everybody should declare also a secondary faction in case two players have the same primary faction of choice - in this case they both should switch to their secondary choice faction.

Edit: or - the attacker must use primary choice faction, and defender the secondary.

Maion Maroneios

06-01-2009, 22:34

Guys, listen. As far as I know, the Germans didn't train their soldiers to be professional combatants. Yes, they were brave and yes, they were quite disciplined. Have you any idea how rigidly elite Hellenic soldiers (for example) were trained? Ever heard of Pankration? Shorter and smaller in general might they be, but the most elite Hellenic soldiers were killing machines, trained to kill and follow orders. Bravery and naked fanaticism in not very effective when facing iron disciplined soldiers, especially in favourable terrain for them.

Maion

Phalanx300

06-01-2009, 22:36

Meh, they're not that cost effective.
Including a few units is useful, but spamming them wouldn't be as cost effective as having 1.5-2 times as many hoplites.

I suspect they have gained an unnecessary legend due to their history, and successful use by players.

If you look at their stats you'll notice that they are quite elite.

As for the cost issue, what matters is how well the armies would perform at lower levels of mnai.
Hellenistic cavalry advantages would be wiped out, leaving attrition as the only option left, and as I said earlier, that is bound to mean a massive increase in losses for Hellenic factions as a result.

Not really, I mostly see Hellenic armies with: Hetairoi, Pezhetairoi, Agrianikoi, Kretikoi Toxotai. Cutting the limit on infantry and missle forces by taking lower quality is hardly taking away the cavalry army if you're that inclinded to use it.

Massive increase in losses? Things would be more equal, you're right now talking like the Hellenes will always lose with lower Mnai. If anything there will be a more equal win/loss ratio and more fair play without any faction having a default advantage because of the Mnai level.

Also you guys could see it differently, what if the Romani scum:clown: would have a automatic advantage because of the Mnai? I'm certain I would see all of you complaining about making it more equal. :whip:

Guys, listen. As far as I know, the Germans didn't train their soldiers to be professional combatants. Yes, they were brave and yes, they were quite disciplined. Have you any idea how rigidly elite Hellenic soldiers (for example) were trained? Ever heard of Pankration? Shorter and smaller in general might they be, but the most elite Hellenic soldiers were killing machines, trained to kill and follow orders. Bravery and naked fanaticism in not very effective when facing iron disciplined soldiers, especially in favourable terrain for them.

Maion

Read the unit descriptions! They did have professional soldiers. Germanics fought from youth and had to deserve their freedom by fighting. They had to be worthy of their shield and spear. I've heard about Pankration, very interesting. I'm wondering why you are assuming Germanics can't be iron disciplined? And Germanics didn't fought naked(unless you mean armour naked), there was this individual tribe which were known to do just that. Generally speaking its more a Celtic thing.

vartan

06-01-2009, 23:05

Hayasdan Elite Units

Hye Zoravar (Armenian Bodyguard Cavalry)
Aznvakan Aspet (Armenian Noble Cataphracts)
Zrahakir Netadzik (Armenian Armoured Horse-Archers)
Aznvakan Tiknapah (Armenian Noble Infantry)
Khûveshâvagân (Kinsmen Heavy Cavalry)
Khûveshâvagânê Shâhvâr (Royal Kinsmen Heavy Cavalry)

These are factional elite units for Hayasdan (Armenia).

Sir Karati

06-01-2009, 23:16

Hi guys, i have a request: can you add mee into the faction's list at the beginning of this discussion? I like the makedonia's team...

Maion Maroneios

06-01-2009, 23:44

Read the unit descriptions! They did have professional soldiers. Germanics fought from youth and had to deserve their freedom by fighting. They had to be worthy of their shield and spear. I've heard about Pankration, very interesting. I'm wondering why you are assuming Germanics can't be iron disciplined? And Germanics didn't fought naked(unless you mean armour naked), there was this individual tribe which were known to do just that. Generally speaking its more a Celtic thing.
I've read the damn inscriptions, plus some Interent sources as well. I've played as the Sweboz myself, you know. It's just that no source has proven me that the Germanics were nothing more than a warlike society, and a very primitive one as well. Young Hellenes recieved rigorous training as well, and that coupled with the general doggy spirit and patriotism sounds good enough to be considered at least as good as the Germanics in terms of spirit and discipline. Now warfare and military training, that is a form of art, pefected by the more "civilized" nations. I bet my left hand (actually I'd say something else, but that's not appropriate here) that an average Spartiates had the best Germanic fighter hands down within seconds. And while a Spartiates is not exactly a good example, maybe an Hypaspistes would be fine to you.

And I meant armour naked, not nude. Plus, I'm not assuming Germanics were not iron disciplined. They were brave and tradtional minds, as well as passionate in warfrare. But that's entirely different than a soldier that has been trained for killing exclusively from a young age.

Maion

Phalanx300

06-01-2009, 23:59

I've read the damn inscriptions, plus some Interent sources as well. I've played as the Sweboz myself, you know. It's just that no source has proven me that the Germanics were nothing more than a warlike society, and a very primitive one as well. Young Hellenes recieved rigorous training as well, and that coupled with the general doggy spirit and patriotism sounds good enough to be considered at least as good as the Germanics in terms of spirit and discipline. Now warfare and military training, that is a form of art, pefected by the more "civilized" nations. I bet my left hand (actually I'd say something else, but that's not appropriate here) that an average Spartiates had the best Germanic fighter hands down within seconds. And while a Spartiates is not exactly a good example, maybe an Hypaspistes would be fine to you.

And I meant armour naked, not nude. Plus, I'm not assuming Germanics were not iron disciplined. They were brave and tradtional minds, as well as passionate in warfrare. But that's entirely different than a soldier that has been trained for killing exclusively from a young age.

Maion

Then why did you missed the part where it said that there were professional Germanic soldiers? :sweatdrop:

Germanics were a warlike society indeed. The best Germanic fighter? Ever heard of berserkers? :sweatdrop: Where one stopped an entire army from crossing a bridge. Anyways, Spartiates are definately elite units and trained to be so from birth.

Germanic society was very warlike, where people also fought for survival from youth and had to proove themselves. The best Germanic warrior taken by an average Hypaspistai? Or an average Spartan one on one? I have some serious doubts about that. :sweatdrop:

Seems like you're clearly underestimating them.

antisocialmunky

06-02-2009, 00:12

as for baktrixa

Baktrion Agema (Baktrian Royal Guard)
Peltastai Makedonikoi (Hellenistic Elite Infantry)
Somatophylakes Strategou (Baktrian Early Bodyguard)
Hetairoi Kataphraktoi
Hindus Patiyodha (Indian Longbowmen) ???
Sreni Pattya Yoddaha (Infantry Guild Warriors)
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai (Indo-Greek Noble Hoplites)
Elephants
Taxilan Agema (Indo-Iranian Heavy cavalry)
Peltastai Makedonikoi (Hellenistic Elite Infantry)

Indian longbowman are not elite. You just suck against them. They are described as levies and they are very high end levies. They die in hordes against missiles and are outranged by most eastern archers. The only thing they have going for them in melee. That is all they have going for them.

Trying to get a unit restricted because you can't counter it is lame. You don't even play Baktria.

Historically, the longbowmen of India were a famous and fearsome force, utilized by every effective army ever mobilized in the region - even Alexander the Great took advantage of their easy availability, receiving a number of them in the levy contingents from his newly acquired vassal kings. A century later, as the Baktrian Kings became more settled and grew into the roles of a "Raja," as opposed to a traditional Hellenic Basileos, such archers became a more regular component of their native levy - probably freeing most Hellenes from the lower orders of the psiloi, in order to concentrate them in their "national" phalanx. Even the archery-oriented Saka used them to augment their own foot archers, or to support their cavalry divisions, expanded as more and more cultivated land came under their power. Forunately for the Baktrians, Saka, and even the occassional non-regional power to invade India, longbowmen are a regular feature of the local military infrastructure, and easily accessable to anyone.

You forgot a few units too.

@Syrians and Thorakitai. I don't think they qualify as elite. Thorakitai are just mid-high-end(and not cost effective) line infantry, rich and veterans but not elites. The Seleucids eventually transitioned to Thorakitai from phalangites so they should be the same level as Pez(professional but not elite). Syrians are debatable, I'd classify them as not elite.

@Agrianians. The only reason they were elite in RvG was because Thracian Skirmishers were. So, I don't think there's any reason to keep them elite. Just avoid in trees.

HERE IS A QUESTION:
Hellenic Cataphracts. Elite or No? I'd classify them as no because they suck horribly against anything with AP. In every single battle I've played, they have been an absolute waste of money. Their terrible morale + AP weakness makes them terrible against cavalry and light infantry. They do stand up to sword(non-AP) infantry quite well though.

Maion Maroneios

06-02-2009, 01:05

Then why did you missed the part where it said that there were professional Germanic soldiers? :sweatdrop:

Germanics were a warlike society indeed. The best Germanic fighter? Ever heard of berserkers? :sweatdrop: Where one stopped an entire army from crossing a bridge. Anyways, Spartiates are definately elite units and trained to be so from birth.

Germanic society was very warlike, where people also fought for survival from youth and had to proove themselves. The best Germanic warrior taken by an average Hypaspistai? Or an average Spartan one on one? I have some serious doubts about that. :sweatdrop:

Seems like you're clearly underestimating them.
I didn't miss the part, but clearly you missed the part stating that there were no standing forces for any German tribe. Professional soldiers were a minority, in contrary to the majority of the vast population of Germania that fought with primitive weapons. And Berserkers are more or less a myth, if you ask me. At least the stories of them doing crazy things, like that one you stated of the one man holding off an entire army.

Have you any idea at all, of what en elite Hellenic or Roman soldier went through? The mind and body were tested to the extreme, while they were trained to be total killing machines. The trick here is the following: The Spartans had already understood the value of discipline. They taught their soldiers to march in perfect formation, and absorb the enemy charge in absolute silence. It is scientifically proven, that a calm and collected mind wins over a crazy person who just uses brute force. Ever wondered how a martial arts master can beat up a much (seemingly) stronger opponent? Because he is collected, and waits for the enemy to make a mistake. Blindly and aimlessly charging in a frenzy isn't very effective against a silent and disciplined army, believe me. That has been proven too many times. Truth is, a non or semi-disciplined average soldier would most probably crap his pants by experiencing a charge by Germanic soldiers.

As I said above, the key to the strength of (say) a Spartiates, was his rigorous training and ability to control his emotions and unleash an immense inner strength through mental balance. Can you really compare a soldier trained day and night to kill for years, with a Germanic soldier? I'm very sorry, but I though you were more intelligent I'm afraid.

Maion

antisocialmunky

06-02-2009, 01:08

Here is another question. My Baktrian Medium Cavalry is classified as heavy cavalry by the game engine and my light cavalry can easily compare to medium cav. What's the ruling for Eastern Cav described as medium but actually heavy in game.

mountaingoat

06-02-2009, 01:42

Indian longbowman are not elite. You just suck against them. They are described as levies and they are very high end levies. They die in hordes against missiles and are outranged by most eastern archers. The only thing they have going for them in melee. That is all they have going for them.

Trying to get a unit restricted because you can't counter it is lame. You don't even play Baktria.

whoa whoa , back up dude , wtf is with the insults ? i was suggesting that they might fall under this category for foot archers .... and i do play games with baktria when i am not using getai .. so chill out ...

first off , they are only 143mani less than the dacian elite archers, and the description in recruiting pool says nothing of them being levy .. only the unit list says that they were recruited in the times of alexander and used as levys.

stats to compare the two are (attack , defense , morale)

8,14,13 dacian elite 1273 mnai

8,13,10 longbowman 1130 mnai

and to compare with cretans and syrians
9,17,11 cretans 1511 mnai

10,19,11 syrians 1452 mnai
to me , any foot archer unit that costs more than 1000mnai might be considered elite ... if you think no then that is fine , i am not sure what to place them as ... yes they are a damn good unit to have but just make sure we all are using a level playing field here ...

vartan

06-02-2009, 01:43

My medium cavalry is also heavy in game. I believe that because the game engine rules out battles basing them as heavy, they should be treated as thus: heavy. As a result, all units considered as heavy cavalry should fall into the 3 heavy cav max rule.

antisocialmunky

06-02-2009, 01:59

whoa whoa , back up dude , wtf is with the insults ? i was suggesting that they might fall under this category for foot archers .... and i do play games with baktria when i am not using getai .. so chill out ...

first off , they are only 143mani less than the dacian elite archers, and the description in recruiting pool says nothing of them being levy .. only the unit list says that they were recruited in the times of alexander and used as levys.

stats to compare the two are

8,10,13 dacian elite 1273 mnai

8,11,10 longbowman 1130 mnai

and to compare with cretans
9,10,11 cretans 1511 mnai

to me , any foot archer unit that costs more than 1000mnai might be considered elite ... if you think no then that is fine , i am not sure what to place them as ... yes they are a damn good unit to have but just make sure we all are using a level playing field here ...

Well, I'm sorry but it's a little frustrating when when someone tries to mess with your roster. So is repeating one's self ad nauseum about how a unit isn't that great. If you were ever in a archer duel with Indian Longbows, you will know what I mean.

Just look at this:

Unit: Missile/Attack/Defense
Cretans: 6/8/18
Bosphorans: 5/8/20
Persian Heavies: 5/10/15
Syrians: 4/10/19 (I guess you could elite them, I never really play with them that much)
Indians: 5/8/13
Dacians: 5/8/14

And everyone of these outrange them or has the same range so they have to advance under fire and take heavy loses.

Sorry if I over reacted.

mountaingoat

06-02-2009, 02:09

Well, I'm sorry but it's a little frustrating when when someone tries to mess with your roster. So is repeating one's self ad nauseum about how a unit isn't that great. If you were ever in a archer duel with Indian Longbows, you will know what I mean.

Just look at this:

Unit: Missile/Attack/Defense
Cretans: 6/8/18
Bosphorans: 5/8/20
Persian Heavies: 5/10/15
Syrians: 4/10/19 (I guess you could elite them, I never really play with them that much)
Indians: 5/8/13
Dacians: 5/8/14

And everyone of these outrange them or has the same range so they have to advance under fire and take heavy loses.

Sorry if I over reacted.

lol its cool ... well the dacian out range them by only 9.2 which is not much if enemy has higher ground ... maybe if i am comparing dacian elites and longbowman mostly ..they are very close match .. but the dacians are counted as elites which sucks .. but i guess is the best for dacia *shrug*

vartan

06-02-2009, 06:06

I just realized how important it is to reduce the per player budget to 30,000 mnai. There is a grave lack of light troops and skirmishers, and an overuse of med/heavy cav and high end nonelite infantry. Looking at the differences between civilized and noncivilized nations now, this becomes even clearer. Consider this my boycotting of the tournament until further notice. =]

Have fun all.

Phalanx300

06-02-2009, 06:33

I didn't miss the part, but clearly you missed the part stating that there were no standing forces for any German tribe. Professional soldiers were a minority, in contrary to the majority of the vast population of Germania that fought with primitive weapons. And Berserkers are more or less a myth, if you ask me. At least the stories of them doing crazy things, like that one you stated of the one man holding off an entire army.

Have you any idea at all, of what en elite Hellenic or Roman soldier went through? The mind and body were tested to the extreme, while they were trained to be total killing machines. The trick here is the following: The Spartans had already understood the value of discipline. They taught their soldiers to march in perfect formation, and absorb the enemy charge in absolute silence. It is scientifically proven, that a calm and collected mind wins over a crazy person who just uses brute force. Ever wondered how a martial arts master can beat up a much (seemingly) stronger opponent? Because he is collected, and waits for the enemy to make a mistake. Blindly and aimlessly charging in a frenzy isn't very effective against a silent and disciplined army, believe me. That has been proven too many times. Truth is, a non or semi-disciplined average soldier would most probably crap his pants by experiencing a charge by Germanic soldiers.

As I said above, the key to the strength of (say) a Spartiates, was his rigorous training and ability to control his emotions and unleash an immense inner strength through mental balance. Can you really compare a soldier trained day and night to kill for years, with a Germanic soldier? I'm very sorry, but I though you were more intelligent I'm afraid.

Maion

See this quote on one of their units(also read the ingame unit descriptions, more explaination there):

The Dugunthiz (the "Trusted" or "Capable" ones) is a unit of proud and experienced, "proven" warriors steeled by years of constant warfare and veterans of numerous conflicts, mostly tribal, but some of a larger scale. These men are hardened for battle and unlikely to flee from conflict, and are trained through long experience to work in close or open formation, and even the shieldwall.

These weren't your every day hunters or farmers, those were of a whole other class, the Frije class. Point is they had a standing army.

Berserkers aren't a myth really, we have proof for them, just like for the animal warriors(ancestor of berserker) which are shown on Roman drawings and which they did talk about.

First of all you suddenly started comparing your everyday Germanic with Hellenic elites, I'm simply comparing your every day ones with themselves.

It is scientifically proven, that a calm and collected mind wins over a crazy person who just uses brute force. Ever wondered how a martial arts master can beat up a much (seemingly) stronger opponent? Because he is collected, and waits for the enemy to make a mistake. Blindly and aimlessly charging in a frenzy isn't very effective against a silent and disciplined army, believe me. That has been proven too many times. Truth is, a non or semi-disciplined average soldier would most probably crap his pants by experiencing a charge by Germanic soldiers.

In other words you just wish to follow the steriotype which has been set about barbarians and refuse to believe the information which says that they were disciplined. And on occasions even more then the Romans?

You seem to be missings some brain cells as well. Which part from trained from youth, and having to proove yourself doesn't make for a great warrior? Germanics also had professional soldiers, not training as hard as the Spartans in all probability though saying it was just a bunch of charging barbarians with no order alla hollywood. I would expect you to follow the evidence instead of believing the hollywood.

And I never said that Germanics were better soldiers then the Hellenes, I just said that they weren't the orderless hollywood troops you make them out to be. Also when the Romans faced the Cimbri they formed up in battalions, yep definately a wild orderless charging mess of filthy barbarians.