View Full Version : TWC or the Org?
Alexandros_III
06-01-2009, 04:35
I really dont know which is a more official and elaborite site. Which has a better community, better mods, better informed? I know the result will be horribly biased, but I just really dont know.
I don't know if it's because I was a member here first, but I've always liked the .Org more than TWC. I am a member at TWC but hardly visit there. There's not really a reason why I just like the Org more.
Alexandros_III
06-01-2009, 05:42
I feel the same way for TWC.
Beefy187
06-01-2009, 05:45
I joined the Org first, and I know the lads in Org alot better then those in TWC.
Org for me :yes:
pevergreen
06-01-2009, 06:23
Truth be told, I actually visited TWC first, for the mods for RTW.
However, the layout and the groups and everything was too confusing, so when M2TW was coming out, I stumbled across the org and have never looked back. I even got quite a few people to sign up, including Beefy. :yes:
COME BACK BEEFY WE MISS YOU :cry:
Beefy187
06-01-2009, 08:02
Truth be told, I actually visited TWC first, for the mods for RTW.
However, the layout and the groups and everything was too confusing, so when M2TW was coming out, I stumbled across the org and have never looked back. I even got quite a few people to sign up, including Beefy. :yes:
COME BACK BEEFY WE MISS YOU :cry:
Thats good to hear :yes:
Although i normally don't post at TwC, i lurk there sometimes. Both sites have their charms, just like Yuku.
Megas Methuselah
06-01-2009, 08:31
I recently found out I had an account at TWC since 2005. :inquisitive:
But I like the Org better. Community's smaller, closer, and thus, friendlier.
Aemilius Paulus
06-02-2009, 23:55
Although i normally don't post at TwC, i lurk there sometimes. Both sites have their charms, just like Yuku.
What charms does TWC have, other than the fact that it is larger, thus more members and forums, which is itself a double-edged sword? It is disorganized, with the stickies scattered everywhere an in large fonts; the member's avatars need standardising; the sigs are often obnoxious; the spam levels are unbearable; abuse is frequent; mods are cold and uncaring, drunk with their power; there are too many members; there is no a sense of community like in .Org; etc; etc; etc. The lack of standardisation and orderliness is the one that bothers me the most really.
Hooahguy
06-03-2009, 00:28
What charms does TWC have, other than the fact that it is larger, thus more members and forums, which is itself a double-edged sword? It is disorganized, with the stickies scattered everywhere an in large fonts; the member's avatars need standardising; the sigs are often obnoxious; the spam levels are unbearable; abuse is frequent; mods are cold and uncaring, drunk with their power; there are too many members; there is no a sense of community like in .Org; etc; etc; etc. The lack of standardisation and orderliness is the one that bothers me the most really.
my exact thoughts.
Pannonian
06-03-2009, 00:31
What charms does TWC have, other than the fact that it is larger, thus more members and forums, which is itself a double-edged sword? It is disorganized, with the stickies scattered everywhere an in large fonts; the member's avatars need standardising; the sigs are often obnoxious; the spam levels are unbearable; abuse is frequent; mods are cold and uncaring, drunk with their power; there are too many members; there is no a sense of community like in .Org; etc; etc; etc. The lack of standardisation and orderliness is the one that bothers me the most really.
There is a sense of community, but not a centralised community. Since imb39 bought the site in Jan 2007, TWC has hugely expanded, partly as a matter of policy (to attract modders), partly through word of mouth (mainly in what TWC calls the Common Community, and what the Org would call the Tavern). Partly to cope with this expansion, and partly as a result of staff decisions, these macro-communities have been allowed to largely govern themselves, with but an overall oversight from central staff. Much of the disorderliness comes from the sheer size of the site.
I do agree with you though that a certain former mod was cold and uncaring, drunk with his power.
A Terribly Harmful Name
06-03-2009, 00:35
The .ORG, as much as I like it, is only my personal spam playground. TWC all the way. I mean it's precisely the excessive standardization and lack of vibrance here which make it a bit boring after some time.
johnhughthom
06-03-2009, 01:02
The org is the home of EB, therefore I prefer it to TWC. I do like TWC though, there is a nice AAR community there.
Cultured Drizzt fan
06-03-2009, 01:35
I have been lurking the total war forums for some time, but over at TWC I have never felt the need to make an account. I was drawn here partly because its the home of EB, but what really drew me in and made me make an account was the throne room, and now I am getting into the game room as well, its all great fun. There is a real sense of Community here. something I never saw at TWC.
but then again if you placed this poll in the TWC they would probably have similar reasons and you would see the org lagging behind. To each there own, I guess.
The org has better non-total war discussions in my opinion, and it also has a MTW1 community which of course doesn't exist on TWC. These are the reasons I like this place better. Unfortunately I can't stand the forum skin here compared to TWC's, which drives me away.
I agree about the mess that is TWC avatars and signatures, however I turned off avatars, sigs, rep icons and medals so it's a lot neater, and less wasted space.
One thing that I think TWC has far better is the vastness of the modding community there. However, I have outgrown total war game modding (CA made it really difficult compared to many games I mod), so this isn't a draw for me personally.
And of course, those moderators at TWC...
There's more than enough room on the internet for both sites. Each has its own positives and negatives, and I think they exist in pretty decent harmony given the usual competition that tends to develop between fan sites. Besides, I think we can all agree that both are far better than the .com. :laugh:
pevergreen
06-03-2009, 03:19
Besides, I think we can all agree that both are far better than the .com. :laugh:
As they say here in queensland, they may be two-headed inbred convicts down in Tasmania, they're still better than those sheep-loving kiwis.
Ahh, stereotypes, I love them.
seireikhaan
06-03-2009, 04:45
The .org. I don't have an account at twc.
Owen Glyndwr
06-03-2009, 05:01
I found this site completely by accident in I think around 2005, and used it primarily for the Vanilla guides. Now that I'm an EB addict, it feels like a whole new world has opened up. It is mainly due to my EB addiction, and my long-term membership to this site that I chose this one.
Also I'm rather unfamiliar with TWC, but have always in my mind ha been delegated to a site for me to download various mods that aren't accessible here...
Galain_Ironhide
06-03-2009, 07:28
I prefer the org, much for its friendlier atmosphere, plus I have made a few good friends during my time.
I only started playing around with TWC around when Broken Crescent came on the scene and to be honest I probably now partake in as much there as I do here. But I know where my loyalty lays and thats here.
Aemilius Paulus
06-05-2009, 05:39
This is scary, but I just became a TWC convert... Yes, the dark side... But it is too late for me... No sport in starting out as a noob again... Especially when I am in such a cozy position here...
If only they had EB forum like .Org... Why did EB choose this site anyway??
Atraphoenix
06-05-2009, 10:43
I am active in .org but after these problems I have to backup my mods on twc.
TWC is more active and vibrant. It is also full of the very young, the very loud and the very bigoted. I like the rep system (even though it is abused) and the multifarious badges and medals. There is also a good AAR community there.
The ORG is more serious with less spam and more informed opinions. It feels like the quiet cloisters of academia compared to the three-ring circus of TWC.
But the world definitely needs both, imagine if all we had was the police-state of the COM?
Mediteran
06-07-2009, 16:38
im registered at both.. i like twc better though. i dont have a good reason though, just feel more "at home" there
might be because i didnt like the way .org looks, with two avatars thing and just somehow colourless
and all of the important mods are there
TWC is more active and vibrant. It is also full of the very young, the very loud and the very bigoted. I like the rep system (even though it is abused) and the multifarious badges and medals. There is also a good AAR community there.
The ORG is more serious with less spam and more informed opinions. It feels like the quiet cloisters of academia compared to the three-ring circus of TWC.
But the world definitely needs both, imagine if all we had was the police-state of the COM?
Very well-put, Juvenal. I would not have expected any less from you:P
I've occasionally lurked around here but I much prefer TWC myself for various reasons. Ultimately I made this account so I could communicate with other TWC members when the site goes down.
The .org is a lovely place, it's just not my lovely place.
Alexandros_III
06-07-2009, 17:43
The org has better non-total war discussions in my opinion, and it also has a MTW1 community which of course doesn't exist on TWC. These are the reasons I like this place better. Unfortunately I can't stand the forum skin here compared to TWC's, which drives me away.
I agree about the mess that is TWC avatars and signatures, however I turned off avatars, sigs, rep icons and medals so it's a lot neater, and less wasted space.
One thing that I think TWC has far better is the vastness of the modding community there. However, I have outgrown total war game modding (CA made it really difficult compared to many games I mod), so this isn't a draw for me personally.
And of course, those moderators at TWC...
I say that TWC has far better non-TW related discussion. It has far more threads for it at the very least.
I have just always used TWC, and have a good acount there. The thought of being a noob all over again, I cant take it. Even with EB, I dont think I'll be here much. I just wish TWC would fix itself and start working again.
Ricochet
06-07-2009, 17:52
I'm going to abstain from voting.
Dol Guldur
06-07-2009, 18:04
I say that TWC has far better non-TW related discussion. It has far more threads for it at the very least
Well, it certainly has far more :) That's part of the problem to me. It seems the off-topic "tavern" area of TWC has grown to dominate or at least rival the purpose of the site: modding and playing TW games and providing a community to discuss the same. That really dilutes the site for me, as if two sites exist in one.
Having said that, the TWC has vastly improved since the modding community virtually threatened to leave it after the last debacle a few years ago now - I might say mainly due to modders becoming involved in the organization and administering of the site. Just to give you an idea of how under-rated modders were, TWC officially asked its members to rep modders because the only people who got any rep were those in the off-topic area. Alas, you are still more likely to get rep that way at TWC which kind of shows the focus of the largely less-mature (or at least less TW-focused) members. I do not care for rep ( have it switched off) bit it is a sign of where people's attitudes lie.
The Org was my home before TWC and I have only frequented that latter site more because of the reality that more modders and a bigger audience exist. I still see the Org as the academic centre for TW guides, modding and historical research - and TWC as the place to display one's wares...though it is getting better. Although it's great that modders have helped achieve this it's also sad that they have had to do it because they are spending less time modding...
Crazed Rabbit
06-07-2009, 19:07
Whichever one is up. ~;p
I use the Org more just because that's what I'm used to, and the forum I started on. Both have their strengths.
CR
Meneldil
06-07-2009, 19:10
TWC is much more alive regarding mods, strategies and stuff, and I mostly go there to get informations and news mod-wise.
But it also has much more annoying people, 13 yo 'lol u suk' people, and non-english speaking people who are barely understandable.
PowerWizard
06-07-2009, 19:28
I visit both forums and comparing them is completely unnecessary. They are fostered by the same community.
I mostly do ETW modding lately so... TWC for me as the ETW modding area here doesn't seem to have a lot of visitors (put kindly).
Since M2TW mods have just got much more exposure on the TWC... Tosa does his best but it doesn't look like we can have two quality places for modding.
Edit: For better site though, I wouldn't like to make a decision, they both have vantages (ad- and disad-). So I won't vote ;)
My view is very different on that topic. I don't vote, but give a personal reflection on that topic.
Given the fact, that i have limited time to organise/work on modding projects and browse through forums, it would be TWC (and i had to do a decision as the SCC site went down, where the Chivalry TW project was hosted primarily).
--
I believe i knew the Org earlier than TWC, at times as M1TW did exist a while, i lurked here the first time (support and mods), and then as RTW came out, short after i registered at Org and on TWC.
TWC then had the RTW-RTR mod presence in those times. That was the thing what kept me at TWC.
Then the TWC hack happened, and other things, the original RTR mod forum was created, where i joined quite early. The RTR forum was then for me the place (as RTW-RTR sitemod creator and member of the TFT mod project, later renamed to FRRE).
The Org at this time was then for me always a place to research for modding guides and tools, but not to post.
TWC was the place to have a little representation of modding efforts, but not to post a lot, because, yes, TWC wasn't a place for modders at this time.
Much too much crazy political things went on there, and non-mod or TW game related discussion was promoted much more than modding things.
All this is until 2005 and partly 2006.
The change on TWC came at the end of 2006, as the TWC site got its complete reform (owner-change etc., as above by others already explained).
Since then, TWC is a quite good place for modders, parallel the RTR-forum was crushed more and more (disappeared, due to the forum-structure-changes, by accident then later completely).
Info for the newbies: The RTR forum site grew to a huge community within the year 2005 (hosted a lot other mod projects), at this time, TWC was a little site only, and the Org was much more a place for modders and mod fans as TWC.
Else:
The non-modding-related things on TWC are of less interest for me, as mainly, the "discussions" (ie. the political mudpit) is of non-mature.
The TWC rep and political etc. system is quite ridicoulous to me, but surely a nice playground for some wanna-be politicians ;) ... i had also a little dispute with 1-2 TWC moderators (those moderators: for me noobs, at this time, what makes the thing much more annoying) who easily gave me 2-times infraction-points, it was partly a thing that i thought about to leave TWC incl. the hosted Chivalry TW project there, where i'm the mod leader since 2006.
The Org has in my view only one problem: Its appearence, the skin and structure - it is not state-of-the-art in my opinion.
TWC has clearly a better structure, although it is that big. The structures are modern forum structures, as it should be. In principle you can't do something wrong if you are searching for something and have not your eyes closed.
Unfortunately i had and have always problems to get through on Org. If the Org would do it in modernised structures, i eventually would prefer the Org, because it is, as a lot other said already above, of a much bigger mature atmosphere, yes.
I lurked this site for a while but then I found out about TWC and made an account there.
Don't really know why I like it more over there but I just do! :D
Prussian to the Iron
06-07-2009, 21:04
i like the community at TWC, but the mods there are incredibly stupid, ver-zealous and notoriously strict. whereas it is way slower here and the mods are great.
so basically, if you dnt mind being banned for 2 months for saying 'lunatic', TWC is the best.
Horton III
06-07-2009, 21:04
What charms does TWC have, other than the fact that it is larger, thus more members and forums, which is itself a double-edged sword? It is disorganized, with the stickies scattered everywhere an in large fonts; the member's avatars need standardising; the sigs are often obnoxious; the spam levels are unbearable; abuse is frequent; mods are cold and uncaring, drunk with their power; there are too many members; there is no a sense of community like in .Org; etc; etc; etc. The lack of standardisation and orderliness is the one that bothers me the most really.
I'll tell you this, the newer (08-09) "junior mods" up to the now senior mods that the ownership chose are terrible. I posted in the administrative forums at the TWC on the subject several times, and both times got an overwhelmingly agreeable response, even from some of the actually decent moderators.
I do like their layout, probably just because that's the first forum I belonged to- period- and got used to it. However, I rarely post anymore over there because the ownership doesn't care about the total war games as much as owning the total war site and running it like a country of some sort. Really a drag.
i like the community at TWC, but the mods there are incredibly stupid, ver-zealous and notoriously strict. whereas it is way slower here and the mods are great.
so basically, if you dnt mind being banned for 2 months for saying 'lunatic', TWC is the best.
The mods at TWC need to be stricter then here because the community is bigger, it would go bad if they didn't do it.
If you guys say "mods" you mean moderators, if i say "mod" or "mods" i mean modding projects. Just for the record in relation to my post and the next ones.
The mods at TWC need to be stricter then here because the community is bigger, it would go bad if they didn't do it.
That depends on certain things. Often newby members become a moderator on TWC and imo. missusing their power. Often TWC moderators have a huge lack of sensibility for the things and relations on TWC. But that's a logical concequence, as the TWC administration is lucky to get overall some staff. It is like in the real world. Bad and good cops.
They mean moderators. Which are frankly under way more pressure on TWC than they are here and are given way too little credit.
TWC is (almost) back now.
TWC is (almost) back now.
Nice, it is back now.
Prussian to the Iron
06-07-2009, 22:11
The mods at TWC need to be stricter then here because the community is bigger, it would go bad if they didn't do it.
if they weren't so strict it wouldnt be so horrible. see below:
I'll tell you this, the newer (08-09) "junior mods" up to the now senior mods that the ownership chose are terrible. I posted in the administrative forums at the TWC on the subject several times, and both times got an overwhelmingly agreeable response, even from some of the actually decent moderators.
I do like their layout, probably just because that's the first forum I belonged to- period- and got used to it. However, I rarely post anymore over there because the ownership doesn't care about the total war games as much as owning the total war site and running it like a country of some sort. Really a drag.
i agree 100%. in fact, yur story is exactly the same as mine. the mods there are horrible and do not believe in redemption or repreive, nor sensibility or justice.
and the fact that they can deny an appeal even though they have no evidence to prove any wrong-doing is only worsened by the fact that there are only a few who decide all appeal cases, and are often biased.
Pannonian
06-07-2009, 22:21
i like the community at TWC, but the mods there are incredibly stupid, ver-zealous and notoriously strict. whereas it is way slower here and the mods are great.
so basically, if you dnt mind being banned for 2 months for saying 'lunatic', TWC is the best.
The lesson is to accept whatever penalties are given, rather than constantly try to get around it. People get banned for less here, yet people complain of over-zealous moderation at TWC. The difference is that, with a more mature population here, one is less inclined to misbehave.
And yes, if you try to get around your penalties again, it will continue piling on. Note the length of your suspension, and serve it.
Pannonian
06-07-2009, 22:29
Well, it certainly has far more :) That's part of the problem to me. It seems the off-topic "tavern" area of TWC has grown to dominate or at least rival the purpose of the site: modding and playing TW games and providing a community to discuss the same. That really dilutes the site for me, as if two sites exist in one.
Having said that, the TWC has vastly improved since the modding community virtually threatened to leave it after the last debacle a few years ago now - I might say mainly due to modders becoming involved in the organization and administering of the site. Just to give you an idea of how under-rated modders were, TWC officially asked its members to rep modders because the only people who got any rep were those in the off-topic area. Alas, you are still more likely to get rep that way at TWC which kind of shows the focus of the largely less-mature (or at least less TW-focused) members. I do not care for rep ( have it switched off) bit it is a sign of where people's attitudes lie.
The Org was my home before TWC and I have only frequented that latter site more because of the reality that more modders and a bigger audience exist. I still see the Org as the academic centre for TW guides, modding and historical research - and TWC as the place to display one's wares...though it is getting better. Although it's great that modders have helped achieve this it's also sad that they have had to do it because they are spending less time modding...
AFAICS TWC was less mod-friendly than it might have been because the focus of administration and the source of staff were mainly in non-TW areas. Since imb39's takeover in early 2007, there has been a conscious effort to make TWC as mod-friendly as possible, to the point where the equivalent of the Tavern, which used to be so dominant in the past, has become some sort of red headed stepchild.
Flavius Merobaudes
06-07-2009, 22:50
I clearly prefer the ORG. I was here at first and then joined TWC for some mods, but the more time I spent there, the more it became clear that it's mainly a spot for politizing lunatics.:sweatdrop: I'm glad there's no mudpit here at the ORG...
Aemilius Paulus
06-07-2009, 22:53
Ugh, half my posts on that site are gone. As is my newly-earned rep. That's it. I take back all the good things I said about TWC. No reason to have rep if it disappears every time the site goes down. Not all of the posts disappeared, but much of them, including numerous threads that were made wayyy before the site went down. Not cool.
Aemilius Paulus
06-07-2009, 22:56
:sweatdrop: I'm glad there's no mudpit here at the ORG...
There is. It is called the Backroom. And I like the TWC Political Mudpit much better than the .Org one. In here, not a single person can be found who agrees with my views.
Not only that, but I dislike the general atmosphere of the Backroom, as well as the fact that it is the most pointless place on this site. People just ramble and ramble while no-one cares about what they say; nor agree with any of it.
A Terribly Harmful Name
06-07-2009, 23:09
Calm down young man. I had that rep and post problem waay back years ago, yet I'm still content. These things happen, all you have to do is carry on.
Cultured Drizzt fan
06-08-2009, 00:24
There is. It is called the Backroom. And I like the TWC Political Mudpit much better than the .Org one. In here, not a single person can be found who agrees with my views.
Not only that, but I dislike the general atmosphere of the Backroom, as well as the fact that it is the most pointless place on this site. People just ramble and ramble while no-one cares about what they say; nor agree with any of it.
Why would having people agree with you be important? if everyone agreed on things then there would be no point in discussing it. the point of discussion is to see if your views are actually valid, see if you are able to persuade others to your point of view, or perhaps you are in fact wrong, and you find that others have brought you around to their point of view. maybe I just like debate and I am wrong, but that is how I see it.
Augustus Lucifer
06-08-2009, 01:00
Alas, you are still more likely to get rep that way at TWC which kind of shows the focus of the largely less-mature (or at least less TW-focused) members.
Perhaps, but I would say that it's 50/50 at least. You're more likely to get some reps here and there if you post witty comments or comprehensive retorts in a non-TW area. Many of my reputation on TWC comes from my witticisms. At the same time you can amass an unruly amount of it from preview and release threads of mods, especially if you're the one who posted the thread. I've probably gotten 20 reputation points per preview, and some of the more prolific mods like SS have garnered 50 or so. It's a somewhat flawed system, but it's fun nonetheless and never hurts to see someone enjoyed your post as much as you enjoyed typing it.
I might make a post about my impression of the sites later, but for now I have a Lakers game to watch. Go Lakers!
Aemilius Paulus
06-08-2009, 01:38
Why would having people agree with you be important? if everyone agreed on things then there would be no point in discussing it. the point of discussion is to see if your views are actually valid, see if you are able to persuade others to your point of view, or perhaps you are in fact wrong, and you find that others have brought you around to their point of view. maybe I just like debate and I am wrong, but that is how I see it.
Look, I would be thankful if I had at least one person who would agree with me. Do not be naive, if there would be that many people who would agree with me, then something would be wrong.
White_eyes:D
06-08-2009, 01:52
Never liked the TWC.....I wonder why? I guess because I always stick with something to the end....I found the Org. first. Loved it....never want to leave until it dies...even though I do have an account at TWC...I just never use it>.>
Beefy187
06-08-2009, 02:10
There is. It is called the Backroom. And I like the TWC Political Mudpit much better than the .Org one. In here, not a single person can be found who agrees with my views.
Not only that, but I dislike the general atmosphere of the Backroom, as well as the fact that it is the most pointless place on this site. People just ramble and ramble while no-one cares about what they say; nor agree with any of it.
Ramble and ramble is the great part.
I occasionally lurk there and get surprised at how many point of view users can come up with. Sometimes I take them down on notes I can think about it later.
Anyways I had a little read about TWC just then. It was really facinating and refreshing to read the talk of ownerships and so on, as I never witnessed one in my life... As Org was the first forum I really loved and those things havn't happened here.
I think TWC is lot closer to real life democratic world. With systemized way to govern the posters, facinating personalities of the mods and power of the masses.
a completely inoffensive name
06-08-2009, 07:05
The org is better because it is not as overrun by people like me and Meth.
Meneldil
06-08-2009, 11:49
i agree 100%. in fact, yur story is exactly the same as mine. the mods there are horrible and do not believe in redemption or repreive, nor sensibility or justice.
and the fact that they can deny an appeal even though they have no evidence to prove any wrong-doing is only worsened by the fact that there are only a few who decide all appeal cases, and are often biased.
You don't get all this appeal and other pseudo-democratic crap on the Org. When you have too much warning points, or misbehave too often, you're banned, period.
Most complains about moderation made in the watchtower end up with even more flame and warning points.
But then, there are less issues, mostly because the community is smaller and more mature on the org.
You misbehaved on TWC and got kicked. Get over it and stop blaming the mods, who are doing a pretty good job given the insane amount of crap and flame posted on TWC daily.
Edit: while I'm at it,
- the rep system of TWC is crap, and so is the whole "son of xxxx, father of yyyyy, consularis, whateverotherstupidlatintitleyoucanthinkof". What with the title crazyness ? Who cares about your achievements and relations on a total-war related forum ? Seriously people...
- the backroom is much better than TWC political forum, filled with "traitors douchebags", "nazi scums" and what not. Most people there can't speak a proper (ie. readable) english, and the one who do are more often than not so stupidly pedantic they make me want to slap them in the face repeatedly.
Dol Guldur
06-08-2009, 12:01
A rep system, perhaps, is not necessarily bad. My point was that the way it is assigned reflects the focus of the members of a site.
I think it's probably fair to say that I have built and released more TW mods than probably any other TW modder (I'm willing to be corrected!) but it's rare I ever got any rep for doing so on any release. Rep has largely come from a rare post in the off-topic areas or from some witty remark.
Members do give rep for graphically-rich previews (which is not my style - I like to make a mod fast enough that it does not have or need a preview!) but many of these previews are for mods that are never even released...
I realize, with a prime expertise in coding, it is not such a visible skill and yet coding, debugging and balancing take up an amount of time that vastly exceeds that spent creating the models and textures of previews.
I reckoned I personally spent about 3000 hours on Corsair Invasion (FATW's first module) - add to that the time spent on Forth Eorlingas, The New Shadow, Title of Liberty, Gods & Fighting Men, Multi-Mod Sampler, The Dwarven Blunderbuss, EB 1.0 modfoldering, The New Shadow for RTW, Rome in Middle-earth, Viking Invasion II and - most recently - Dominion of Britannia and it scares me to think how much time I have given to the darn hobby over the last 5 years. Rep points for releasing these mods? I've not worked it out, but I could probably get the same amount in the off-topic area in a week or two if I tried...
It has got better, yes, but the focus of TWC is, imho, not good for TW modding/playing yet. Maybe it will improve still further, but I doubt that will happen unless there is a long, hard look at the nature and purpose of the site and what the structure (inc. rep, patronage, awards and offices) really should represent and credit. My badge at the Org for outstanding modding means a lot more to me than the TWC opifex badge, simply because of the nature of the site's focus and thus the meaning behind such things.
The Org was the first forum I registered an account at and I kinda stuck around. I did create an account on the TWC a while ago, but for some reason it doesn't appeal to me like the Org does. Probably just a matter of taste.
However, during the most recent troubles with the Org being down, the TWC showed a heartwarming hospitality and there seem to be a lot of very decent members over there as well. It's certainly a very nice community, but they have their "little somethings".
For starters, I always wondered why they bothered with this tribunal and a possibility to appeal against a warning in public like it is a real law suit. It seems a bit silly and it attracts the kind of people who like making trouble or who think that being on a forum is all about playing lawyer and nitpicking on forum rules while in the end, apart from some technicalities, it's just common sense and nothing else to understand what behaviour is expected.
Also, it creates extra work for staff which are all, I assume, volunteers just like here. I guess they don't mind the extra workload.
But I must say that from the couple of "cases" I bothered to read, moderators responded to their resident troublemakers civilised, with respect and as friendly as possible (not always easy when people just insult you by calling you "noob" or "incredibly stupid") and warnings that were indeed wrong, have been reversed, so they don't mind admitting a mistake, which is a good thing.
I feel neutral about the rep thing, but it's a feature some people will enjoy. I look at it like I look at postcount, I think. Some think it's important and think having a high postcount makes a member important, while in fact, it doesn't really matter. I think it's the same with rep. I couldn't care less, but I must admit that it's nice to notice that somebody really enjoyed one of your posts. However, if there wouldn't be "rep", members over there would probably just post "nice post" or a laughing smiley or a thumbsup, which has the same effect.
Anyway, the approach is different, the style is different and of course, the size (as in number of active members) is different. They stick to their principles and allthough I don't really agree with all of it (certainly not the elections and tribunal things), I see their point and I think they're doing just fine.
It's a nice place to hang around, but it's not my favourite :bow:
FactionHeir
06-08-2009, 13:33
Of these two sites, I made an account here first and found the reception to be warmer as well. The only reason I made an accoun at TWC a year back was to chat with a fellow modder, but the whole TWC layout does not appeal to me.
Overall, patrons are quite mature and well-behaved here, with few exceptions, and a good discussion can be had about anything with minimal flaming.
While there are more mods at the TWC, great ones are found at the ORG. :grin:
Reputation system is a nice thing to have, but if its user awarded for all kinds of things, then its not useful. The Senior Member title we have at the ORG seems a lot more sensible in rewarding outstanding contributions.
So I voted ORG ~:)
Pannonian
06-08-2009, 15:21
The Org was the first forum I registered an account at and I kinda stuck around. I did create an account on the TWC a while ago, but for some reason it doesn't appeal to me like the Org does. Probably just a matter of taste.
However, during the most recent troubles with the Org being down, the TWC showed a heartwarming hospitality and there seem to be a lot of very decent members over there as well. It's certainly a very nice community, but they have their "little somethings".
For starters, I always wondered why they bothered with this tribunal and a possibility to appeal against a warning in public like it is a real law suit. It seems a bit silly and it attracts the kind of people who like making trouble or who think that being on a forum is all about playing lawyer and nitpicking on forum rules while in the end, apart from some technicalities, it's just common sense and nothing else to understand what behaviour is expected.
Also, it creates extra work for staff which are all, I assume, volunteers just like here. I guess they don't mind the extra workload.
But I must say that from the couple of "cases" I bothered to read, moderators responded to their resident troublemakers civilised, with respect and as friendly as possible (not always easy when people just insult you by calling you "noob" or "incredibly stupid") and warnings that were indeed wrong, have been reversed, so they don't mind admitting a mistake, which is a good thing.
From imb39's buyout and reforms onwards, there has been a drive to professionalise staff as far as is possible with a volunteer basis, so that nowadays, staff have clear guidelines on how to respond to situations, and administration is driven by policy rather than personality.
The Tribunal and other groups within TWC were created at a time when there was a disconnect between site owner, administrators, and users. Back then, AFAIK (I wasn't a TWCer back then, and only know of this through reading the archives), there were constant pushes for a community-based administration. Nowadays, the owner is around enough to be easily accessible, while the staff has grown enough, with considerable recruitment from and delegation to the community, that the administration is no longer so remote. Nonetheless, there are certain groups that are still useful enough to continue, taking some of the burden off staff. While the Tribunal may be a source of much bother for moderators, its existence as an independent body keeps staff on their toes, and reassures members that abuse of power will not go unchecked.
I feel neutral about the rep thing, but it's a feature some people will enjoy. I look at it like I look at postcount, I think. Some think it's important and think having a high postcount makes a member important, while in fact, it doesn't really matter. I think it's the same with rep. I couldn't care less, but I must admit that it's nice to notice that somebody really enjoyed one of your posts. However, if there wouldn't be "rep", members over there would probably just post "nice post" or a laughing smiley or a thumbsup, which has the same effect.
The real kudos lies, not in the amount of credit given by the community, but who gives it. Thus moderating staff is a fairly tightknit community, with the work they do mostly unseen by the general membership, but among those who've actually taken part, hard work is recognised by their peers.
Prussian to the Iron
06-08-2009, 16:45
The lesson is to accept whatever penalties are given, rather than constantly try to get around it. People get banned for less here, yet people complain of over-zealous moderation at TWC. The difference is that, with a more mature population here, one is less inclined to misbehave.
And yes, if you try to get around your penalties again, it will continue piling on. Note the length of your suspension, and serve it.
i am not even going to go back to that PoS website. i keep getting banned for no reason(says something about an alt?!?!) then get pissed. so if anything, i might actually do what im accused of and make some alts just to piss off the idiotic mods at TWC. you can count on it.https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/icons/icon14.gif
Ser Clegane
06-08-2009, 16:50
so if anything, i might actually do what im accused of and make some alts just to piss off the idiotic mods at TWC. you can count on it.https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/rtw/icons/icon14.gif
Or you could actually - and I know this might be a very novel and out-of-the-box-thinking idea - behave friendly and in a mature way.
Believe me - it's simply amazing how that helps not to get banned anywhere.
But perhaps I am just talking crazy now...
Quirinus
06-08-2009, 16:51
Admittedly I have not hung around the non-TW areas of the TWC much, but based on my time in the RTR and XGM mod subforums, the community there seems pretty cool. Sure there are some scrapes from time to time but as a whole I felt the atmosphere to be very amiable.
Nowadays I am more active in TWC because the Coliseum is pretty slow what with ETW coming out, but I like both just fine. If either of them were to go down I would be very sad.
But I must say that from the couple of "cases" I bothered to read, moderators responded to their resident troublemakers civilised, with respect and as friendly as possible (not always easy when people just insult you by calling you "noob" or "incredibly stupid")
Andres 15 4 n44b. I pwnz he 1n 3v3ry g4me l0lz0r.
In any case, I came to the org due to EB and I got hooked one day when foot pointed to the Backroom. Afterwards, I settled in.
Prussian to the Iron
06-08-2009, 16:58
Admittedly I have not hung around the non-TW areas of the TWC much, but based on my time in the RTR and XGM mod subforums, the community there seems pretty cool. Sure there are some scrapes from time to time but as a whole I felt the atmosphere to be very amiable.
Nowadays I am more active in TWC because the Coliseum is pretty slow what with ETW coming out, but I like both just fine. If either of them were to go down I would be very sad.
for some reason the mod forums(like EB, third age total war) are much more friendly and intelligent than the rest of the site.......
Or you could actually - and I know this might be a very novel and out-of-the-box-thinking idea - behave friendly and in a mature way.
Believe me - it's simply amazing how that helps not to get banned anywhere.
But perhaps I am just talking crazy now...
or you coul actually- and this might be a new idea to you- try going there and getting your ass handed to you for the smallest and least important things.
you could be the most conservative polite person ever and get banned there. ive seen some of the best members there get banned for nothing.
by this time i have no hop of getting un-banned there, and honestly dont give a damn. ill prefer annoyin the hell out of them in an all-out guerilla warfare!:2thumbsup::2thumbsup::2thumbsup:
You were nothing but a belligerent spammer during your stay at TWC John, I recall very well some of your massed agressive posts. You deserved everything you got while you were there, though it's good to see you've calmed down some.
The org is the home of EB, therefore I prefer it to TWC. I do like TWC though, there is a nice AAR community there.
I don't really visit either of the two pleases because both communities are a bit too silly with the member<->mod relationship.
But I agree, the TWC has a superior AAR community.
Prussian to the Iron
06-08-2009, 17:54
You were nothing but a belligerent spammer during your stay at TWC John, I recall very well some of your massed agressive posts.
examples?
anything said was provoked by idiotic 9 year olds who should be banned permanently. i did not spam, and their idea of spam is far off. instagibbed is spam. well thought out posts, whether long or not, is not spam. nor was i agressive despite your claims.
examples?
anything said was provoked by idiotic 9 year olds who should be banned permanently. i did not spam, and their idea of spam is far off. instagibbed is spam. well thought out posts, whether long or not, is not spam. nor was i agressive despite your claims.
Your appeals alone were aggressive enough and done in a poor disrespectful manner. Your behavior in your appeals was hardly anything new as it was that behavior that got you in trouble in the first place. Mostly your posts generally consisted of one-to-two sentences containing poor punctuation and l33t speak with very little useful content. They were hardly 'well thought out' or constructive.
I would like to remind everyone that, no matter what happened at the TWC, Org rules apply when posting at the Org.
:bow:
GeneralHankerchief
06-08-2009, 20:20
I would like to remind everyone that, no matter what happened at the TWC, Org rules apply when posting at the Org.
:bow:
*dancing lock smiley would go here if smilies worked currently*
In TWC, they have that lawyeering system that is annoying. Those rules make the site as is.
The .org may fall down several times, be slow and a small forum. But that it is what makes the org what it is. All Hail Orgsoc and Tosa!
In TWC, what is wrong is that they don't have Babe Threads. Seriously.
A rep system, perhaps, is not necessarily bad. My point was that the way it is assigned reflects the focus of the members of a site.
I think it's probably fair to say that I have built and released more TW mods than probably any other TW modder (I'm willing to be corrected!) but it's rare I ever got any rep for doing so on any release. Rep has largely come from a rare post in the off-topic areas or from some witty remark.
Members do give rep for graphically-rich previews (which is not my style - I like to make a mod fast enough that it does not have or need a preview!) but many of these previews are for mods that are never even released...
I realize, with a prime expertise in coding, it is not such a visible skill and yet coding, debugging and balancing take up an amount of time that vastly exceeds that spent creating the models and textures of previews.
I reckoned I personally spent about 3000 hours on Corsair Invasion (FATW's first module) - add to that the time spent on Forth Eorlingas, The New Shadow, Title of Liberty, Gods & Fighting Men, Multi-Mod Sampler, The Dwarven Blunderbuss, EB 1.0 modfoldering, The New Shadow for RTW, Rome in Middle-earth, Viking Invasion II and - most recently - Dominion of Britannia and it scares me to think how much time I have given to the darn hobby over the last 5 years. Rep points for releasing these mods? I've not worked it out, but I could probably get the same amount in the off-topic area in a week or two if I tried...
It has got better, yes, but the focus of TWC is, imho, not good for TW modding/playing yet. Maybe it will improve still further, but I doubt that will happen unless there is a long, hard look at the nature and purpose of the site and what the structure (inc. rep, patronage, awards and offices) really should represent and credit. My badge at the Org for outstanding modding means a lot more to me than the TWC opifex badge, simply because of the nature of the site's focus and thus the meaning behind such things.
Yep, that's exactly how the rep system works. Interestingly, however, it's a fairly accurate description of the reputation you actually have among the whole of the forum's membership. Most of them won't care who spent how much time on the mod and they probably won't even know your nick - they don't give you rep, either.
However, do you actually care about whether or not they know you? I had disabled reputation for a long time on the TWC because I didn't. I didn't get a lot of reputation while modding M2TW because a lot of what I was doing was writing small tools and tutorials or answer modding questions - tasks that obviously aren't noticed by the vast majority of people because they don't mod.
The reason why I eventually enabled it is because some people (myself included) have taken a stance to include a sensible comment and their nick in the reputation line and if I get repped by another fellow modder who has my respect it actually means something to me - although it means the same to me if that person posts about it on the forums so I wouldn't actually need the reputation system. You'll for example get a hosted mods forum and front page announcements much easier (I guess you and me would get them on cue) if you have this less tangible kind of reputation on your side, whereas your number of rep points doesn't matter there at all.
Anyways, I also don't really appreciate of the whole forum politics, ranks, civitate madness and so on... it's just a load of hot air but some people do seem to care about it and it doesn't actually disturb me so I'm alright with it. Doesn't mean I actively support it though, in retrospect maybe I should have refused to become citizen
Prussian to the Iron
06-09-2009, 01:12
Your appeals alone were aggressive enough and done in a poor disrespectful manner. Your behavior in your appeals was hardly anything new as it was that behavior that got you in trouble in the first place. Mostly your posts generally consisted of one-to-two sentences containing poor punctuation and l33t speak with very little useful content. They were hardly 'well thought out' or constructive.
the appeals are aressive as everyone elses are, and for good reason. the 3 mods moderating the appeals are corrupt and horrible, and deserve nothing less than permaban.
and i barely used leet, and mostly used well-constructed sentences. grammar is unimportant ot me on the internet; you can read what i am saying.
Alexandros_III
06-09-2009, 01:51
At the TWC I have openly disliked anyone who has joined after March 3rd (I regret it though). I just dont want to be part of that. The reason I stick with TWC is because I found it first.
And the sight of it is better. Everything here is set up with buseness settings and a blueish background. Is there really no way to change that? At TWC the option is at the bottomn of the screen.
GeneralHankerchief
06-09-2009, 01:56
And the sight of it is better. Everything here is set up with buseness settings and a blueish background. Is there really no way to change that? At TWC the option is at the bottomn of the screen.
Normally, there is. However, the forum recently went through a hiccup and we're still trying to get everything back to the way it was.
Alexandros_III
06-09-2009, 02:15
I didnt really mean this thread to be a full argument or discussion, I just wanted advice on whether to keep my old acount on TWC or to become a noob again and start here. But this is a better argument than I got there.
Beefy187
06-09-2009, 02:25
I didnt really mean this thread to be a full argument or discussion, I just wanted advice on whether to keep my old acount on TWC or to become a noob again and start here. But this is a better argument than I got there.
If you are worried about the background theme, like GH said it will get fixed soon as Tosa finds some time to deal with it.
As for starting over here, it really depends on what you want to do.
A Terribly Harmful Name
06-09-2009, 04:09
Don't bother with your postcount: go where the interesting discussion is. This way you'll rise fast.
pevergreen
06-09-2009, 07:09
Or you could actually - and I know this might be a very novel and out-of-the-box-thinking idea - behave friendly and in a mature way.
Believe me - it's simply amazing how that helps not to get banned anywhere.
But perhaps I am just talking crazy now...
True post, or true-est post?
Memes aside, each forum has its place, and the ones that are flittering between the two (pannonian) tend to be great contributors at both forums.
At any place on the internet you get members who you wish could be more constructive and so forth. I'm one of those to many people.
As for the rep system, its been given a nice view on either side, but I side with the 'its a good idea, but abused in reality.'
Until recently, the org seemed to be more reliable to stay up, but these are baaad times. Luckily, they conincide with my self exile from being online, as I am soooo very close to going over the internet limit (gets refreshed tomorrow :grin2:)
Apart from that, people tend to form loyalties to their first. This will always be the forum for me, its got the people I know that are good to see whats going on (Strike FTS, CR, GH and so on)
Personally, I have accounts on both sites and use both.
As a modder, the odding community is far more active on TWc for M2TW, so I end up spending more time there. It's a different feel, but I have never considered the two forums to be mutually exclusive.
For some, there is the need to be 'part of hte club' .... but personally, I am with Marx on this ( Groucho ... not Karl ) and I would never want to join a club that would have me as a member!
You will get nice people on either forum, Trolls on either forum, as well as people who consider their opinion to be the most valid because their voice is the loudest. That, as they say, is life, and it reflects the mix you will get on any forum. Modding forums for specifc mods tend to get a more focused audience, as they all are keen to follow that particular mod...and I think the postings will reflect that interest.
General forums and 'Tavern; type areas will tend to attract a more diverse posting pattern, and more varied characters and opinions. If such things don;t suit, then stay out of that particular kitchen!
As far as moderating goes, I have never been banned form either forum, never been warned, threatened or whatever, so I can't comment on the 'mods' at either forum. I have a moderate amount of Rep over at TWC and Artifex status....which is nice because it is a recognition of effort gained through patronage and vote....and similarly had no problem getting a mod forum here and similar recognition around the modding forums. I feel sorry for DolGuldur and ANY modder working on the unseen essence of a mod, but have been fortunate to specialise in the more visual eye-candy stuff that makes people go 'Ooooh'...rather than the code without which nothing would go at all... but that is true on both boards. The casual fans love hte eye-candy.
Overall, I think there is no harm in having an account on both boards and posting where andwhen you feel comfortable. A third option on the poll for 'both' would have got me voting.Oh yes....and there are more petulant children over at TWC in proportion to its size, but it's easy to ignore them as the buzzing of a pesky fly.
Ultimately, I think whichever board you frequent, the experience you have depends very much on the attitude you bring with you.
Flavius Merobaudes
06-09-2009, 09:25
There is. It is called the Backroom.
I'm in here since the stone age, and now I need to be told that there's a backroom.:shame: !!!GAH!!!
pevergreen
06-09-2009, 10:35
Stone age? We just had our 10th anniversary. Thats the stone age my friend. :grin2:
Cute Wolf
06-09-2009, 12:12
The org is more cleaner than TWC, and the orgah's are friendlier here...
TWC? I only lurks at them to read about some MOD that didn't exist here, but the MOD That exist in this org have deeper point of view...
And I didn't active at TWC because:
I forgot my TWC account:embarassed:
the appeals are aressive as everyone elses are, and for good reason. the 3 mods moderating the appeals are corrupt and horrible, and deserve nothing less than permaban.
and i barely used leet, and mostly used well-constructed sentences. grammar is unimportant ot me on the internet; you can read what i am saying.
Calling people lunatics and jackasses are definitely insults despite how fiercely you believed otherwise. They are hardly corrupt and are in fact very nice, formal, and professional. Your cases just never stood a chance from the start as you were appealing something that was clearly against the ToS.
Prussian to the Iron
06-09-2009, 17:01
Calling people lunatics and jackasses are definitely insults despite how fiercely you believed otherwise. They are hardly corrupt and are in fact very nice, formal, and professional. Your cases just never stood a chance from the start as you were appealing something that was clearly against the ToS.
but calling someone a jackass in school doesnt even get you suspension! and for that(and it was way far back last year) it was too long.
plus i keep getting re-banned for alt accounts? i dont see the point; even if i had an alt i wouldnt care because i am not going back to that $***-hole except to piss off the epicly-retarded moderators there.(no offense if you are retarded anyone)
yo ucant believe that lunatic is worth over a month of ban do you? you are quite obviously one of the crappy and corrupt moderators there and i refuse to talk to you anymore.
*placed on ignore list*
Ser Clegane
06-09-2009, 17:08
but calling someone a jackass in school doesnt even get you suspension! and for that(and it was way far back last year) it was too long.
plus i keep getting re-banned for alt accounts? i dont see the point; even if i had an alt i wouldnt care because i am not going back to that $***-hole except to piss off the epicly-retarded moderators there.(no offense if you are retarded anyone)
yo ucant believe that lunatic is worth over a month of ban do you? you are quite obviously one of the crappy and corrupt moderators there and i refuse to talk to you anymore.
*placed on ignore list*
It would be great if you moved on to other discussions if your only "contributions" in this thread are personal attacks and general trolling (which are, BTW, not considered to be acceptable here either).
Prussian to the Iron
06-09-2009, 17:13
It would be great if you moved on to other discussions if your only "contributions" in this thread are personal attacks and general trolling (which are, BTW, not considered to be acceptable here either).
since he is now on m ignore list, im done talking to him and we can move on. sorry about that :)
i dont think it s apersonal attack though......more like a defense and general attack on TWC moderators.
https://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo360/TheSpartanIII/Untitled.jpg
Oh what a shame I'm now ignored, I was going to point out a few things.
1. I suppose that's a regional thing but in my school (which expects you to have proper manners) saying that would net you a couple days of In School Suspension.
2. It's because you're not supposed to use alts like you did to circumvent suspension.
3. I am not a moderator by any stretch of the imagination, I do disagree with their actions sometimes. It's just most of the time I find their judgement very reasonable.
Ah well.
Pannonian
06-09-2009, 21:07
but calling someone a jackass in school doesnt even get you suspension! and for that(and it was way far back last year) it was too long.
plus i keep getting re-banned for alt accounts? i dont see the point; even if i had an alt i wouldnt care because i am not going back to that $***-hole except to piss off the epicly-retarded moderators there.(no offense if you are retarded anyone)
yo ucant believe that lunatic is worth over a month of ban do you? you are quite obviously one of the crappy and corrupt moderators there and i refuse to talk to you anymore.
*placed on ignore list*
If you hate the other site that much, why don't you stop creating alts with which to circumvent your suspension? You know how it works, every alt you use during your suspension automatically adds another month. Yet you keep creating them, the latest being today, after you said "i am not going back to that $***-hole".
pevergreen
06-09-2009, 22:05
I say everyone place him on the ignore list.
He came here after being banned with a story, which i'm not going to link to, but is in the frontroom. I seriously doubt the veracity of it now.
Once a terribad troll, always a terribad troll. :shrug:
So, following his advice and my own, along with the fact he seems to enjoy saying it publicly, ignored.
GeneralHankerchief
06-09-2009, 22:49
This thread needs to die a quick death.
Alexandros_III
06-09-2009, 22:49
since he is now on m ignore list, im done talking to him and we can move on. sorry about that :)
i dont think it s apersonal attack though......more like a defense and general attack on TWC moderators.
https://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo360/TheSpartanIII/Untitled.jpg
You sir, and Im sorry but I must say it, insult the forum, and so then insult TW, and so then you insult me. And this after I was almost convinced the .org was worth restarting in. But Bwian has convinced me that it is at least worth having this acount, if at least for the variety.
I just wish that I had bothered to make it before March 3. ETW is an insult all the worse that it was released on my birthday.
Ibn-Khaldun
06-09-2009, 22:55
I think this thread have lost it's point.
Currently, one boy is ranting and blaming TWC moderators and that's it. Last time I checked the title of this thread it wasn't "One boys Crusade against TWC moderators"!
I have a suggestion: if you want to stay here(Org) then please grow up or otherwise you will end up banned from this site too.
EDIT: Gah, GH read my thoughts! :D
Makanyane
06-09-2009, 23:22
I just wish that I had bothered to make it before March 3. ETW is an insult all the worse that it was released on my birthday.
Don't take it personally :P
Also don't pay too much attention to people here moaning about TWC moderators - I've seen as many on TWC moaning about Org moderators, depending on which site they got nabbed on first..... the only difference here being that they don't have a tribunal to go moan in first - (have to confess I prefer it our way)
Prussian to the Iron
06-09-2009, 23:59
If you hate the other site that much, why don't you stop creating alts with which to circumvent your suspension? You know how it works, every alt you use during your suspension automatically adds another month. Yet you keep creating them, the latest being today, after you said "i am not going back to that $***-hole".
read the post again; it says except to annoy the moderators.
why would i continue to create alts? to keep the mods annoyed and busy. i dont give a damn about john-117 there, and honestly it is fun to attack the mods there.
if any of you have read my other posts. you'd know i am not as bad as TWC modenazis portray me as. lock thread so we dont have to continue this.
Beefy187
06-10-2009, 00:10
read the post again; it says except to annoy the moderators.
why would i continue to create alts? to keep the mods annoyed and busy. i dont give a damn about john-117 there, and honestly it is fun to attack the mods there.
if any of you have read my other posts. you'd know i am not as bad as TWC modenazis portray me as. lock thread so we dont have to continue this.
If you did read the Org rule, I'm pretty sure you broke a couple of it in this thread. I don't think the TWC mods mistreated you. But you broke the TWC rules and they simply did their job.
Alexandros_III
06-10-2009, 00:15
This is not what I expected when I made this thread. This fool who posted above me has prooved doubtless that the .org has as many ignorent children (not to be confused with informed children) as the TWC. I guess Ill just hang around both places. Too bad I know very little about this place.
And to the person above me, TWC mods are the same as any respectable forums. I really dont see what your problem is. THe only scrap I ever got in with them was when I wrote a 7 line rant about ETW and posted it in the forum. For it I got banned 3 days from that subsection. I dont see how thats bad or different from what would happen here.
Alexandros_III
06-10-2009, 00:17
Sorry, I dont know how to edit posts, there isnt a button there.
Just to clear up, when I said the one above me, I was refering to John and not Beefy.
Owen Glyndwr
06-10-2009, 00:32
Sorry, I dont know how to edit posts, there isnt a button there.
Just to clear up, when I said the one above me, I was refering to John and not Beefy.
No problem, and I encourage you, Alexandros, to not judge the entire forum based on the rantings of one member. This really is a great and (mostly) very mature site. I actually don't see a whole lot of arguments such as this one break out, and usually when they do the thread is ended relatively quickly. Furthermore just look around the site for yourself. We aren't a very "clique-y" forum, so feel free to lurk around and post your own insights wherever your interest is struck, you'll be amazed by how many awesome people and discussions you can find by just aimlessly wandering.
As to not being able to edit, that is because you are a junior member (see the title under your name?) In the .Org, when someone first registers, they are on junior member status, which restricts their access to various things (such as editing posts). Don't get discouraged though, just keep posting on the site, and you'll be a full member eventually.
As for everyone else, I suppose if someone really bothers you, it is best not to complain about him/her, as it only makes the discussion worse, and generally brings forth flames from the smoke, so to speak. For the sake of perhaps another delightful, prospective member to the .Org, try to keep the thread just a little less, flamey, I guess? (That means you too, John-117)
Prussian to the Iron
06-10-2009, 01:15
No problem, and I encourage you, Alexandros, to not judge the entire forum based on the rantings of one member. This really is a great and (mostly) very mature site. I actually don't see a whole lot of arguments such as this one break out, and usually when they do the thread is ended relatively quickly. Furthermore just look around the site for yourself. We aren't a very "clique-y" forum, so feel free to lurk around and post your own insights wherever your interest is struck, you'll be amazed by how many awesome people and discussions you can find by just aimlessly wandering.
As to not being able to edit, that is because you are a junior member (see the title under your name?) In the .Org, when someone first registers, they are on junior member status, which restricts their access to various things (such as editing posts). Don't get discouraged though, just keep posting on the site, and you'll be a full member eventually.
As for everyone else, I suppose if someone really bothers you, it is best not to complain about him/her, as it only makes the discussion worse, and generally brings forth flames from the smoke, so to speak. For the sake of perhaps another delightful, prospective member to the .Org, try to keep the thread just a little less, flamey, I guess? (That means you too, John-117)
this is a very sensible and intelligent post. I agree 100% and think we can end this discussion and move on.
the only note I have is: do not judge people based on actions in a different website, at a different time period, during a period someone forgot to take their meds. judge based on the majority of their posts which are well-written and meaningful as most of yours are.
Pannonian
06-10-2009, 01:38
this is a very sensible and intelligent post. I agree 100% and think we can end this discussion and move on.
the only note I have is: do not judge people based on actions in a different website, at a different time period, during a period someone forgot to take their meds. judge based on the majority of their posts which are well-written and meaningful as most of yours are.
Once you put your misbehaviour to the past, you can move on. So quit making alts and evading your suspension, something you've said you're doing simply to irritate the moderators. You've a forum here while you're suspended at TWC, so sit out your suspension, however long it currently is, rather than continuing to break rules for the heck of it.
Prussian to the Iron
06-10-2009, 04:30
i will not go back to TWC. thats that.end of discussion, it is over.
Can we get back to topic, please?
The Org is not the "Tribunal for suspended TWC members."
Thank you for your consideration.
:bow:
During the down-time the Org had a couple days ago, I spent some time at the TWC. Especially in the Ethos, Mores, et Monastica forum. I spent a while reading some posts on philosophy and really enjoyed them. I've been visiting the site every day or two now, but have yet to venture out of that particular forum. Though I can't vote in polls which is kind of annoying.
Pannonian
06-10-2009, 09:47
I'll just note an observation of mine. There is a tendency for some people who are/have been members of both sites to behave relatively soundly at the Org, but who will occasionally raise hell at TWC. Not everyone does this, just a minority, but some people will fit in as normal members while at the Org, while making the occasional foray into TWC to troll, flame, post porn, and whatever else they know the moderators dislike, stuff they scrupulously stay clear of here. These people usually registered at TWC first, before having a run-in with the moderators, resulting in a suspension or ban, then coming here and reinventing themselves as normal Orgahs, but still returning to TWC to make hell.
My question is, if these people have shown they can behave normally here, why do they feel the need to behave completely differently at TWC? Is it because the Tribunal, the political history, etc. of TWC gives them a platform for such antics? Is it because the Org generally has a more mature audience that looks down on such stuff, whereas TWC has a younger membership that views such stuff as cool? Is it the membership or the institutions that cause this, and what can be done to improve things?
Furunculus
06-10-2009, 12:29
i've been here even longer than my current account suggests.
i'd did have a TWC account but never really used it.
My question is, if these people have shown they can behave normally here, why do they feel the need to behave completely differently at TWC? Is it because the Tribunal, the political history, etc. of TWC gives them a platform for such antics? Is it because the Org generally has a more mature audience that looks down on such stuff, whereas TWC has a younger membership that views such stuff as cool? Is it the membership or the institutions that cause this, and what can be done to improve things?
Honestly, I think it's just the nature of the internet. I've frequented many gaming forums over the years and even ran one myself for a while. The larger and more popular the site, the greater attention it gets from 'casual' posters. These people aren't usually interested in joining a community, they're just around to get information or vent about the game they're currently playing. Since these people have no significant intentions of hanging around for multiple years, they feel relatively little need to behave in a proper and respectable manner. Thus, the larger and more successful the forum, the more trolls you get.
This in turn impacts the feel of the forums, making them less personal and more chaotic. When people are in the midst of an environment like that, they feel less constrained to act properly. Thus, people who behave properly on a smaller site will act up on a larger site simply because the environment makes their behavior there seem less improper. I'm generally a pretty well-behaved guy, but if I were personally inclined to go out and troll, I wouldn't think twice about doing it on a dev-hosted game forum or a mass-forum site like those hosted by Gamespy or Gamebanshee.
As I see it, this is simply a price that must be paid for success on the internet. When the Org was the top TW fan site, all those people came here and we had problems. Currently TWC is the top TW fan site and thus it gets nearly all of the short-term trolls, which impacts the overall feel.
Pannonian
06-10-2009, 15:45
Honestly, I think it's just the nature of the internet. I've frequented many gaming forums over the years and even ran one myself for a while. The larger and more popular the site, the greater attention it gets from 'casual' posters. These people aren't usually interested in joining a community, they're just around to get information or vent about the game they're currently playing. Since these people have no significant intentions of hanging around for multiple years, they feel relatively little need to behave in a proper and respectable manner. Thus, the larger and more successful the forum, the more trolls you get.
This in turn impacts the feel of the forums, making them less personal and more chaotic. When people are in the midst of an environment like that, they feel less constrained to act properly. Thus, people who behave properly on a smaller site will act up on a larger site simply because the environment makes their behavior there seem less improper. I'm generally a pretty well-behaved guy, but if I were personally inclined to go out and troll, I wouldn't think twice about doing it on a dev-hosted game forum or a mass-forum site like those hosted by Gamespy or Gamebanshee.
As I see it, this is simply a price that must be paid for success on the internet. When the Org was the top TW fan site, all those people came here and we had problems. Currently TWC is the top TW fan site and thus it gets nearly all of the short-term trolls, which impacts the overall feel.
The thing is, they're not casual trolls. They're people who've settled to some extent in TWC, with significant postcounts (1000+), who have come into conflict with the moderators there, then relocated to here while they were suspended or banned, then made it their TWC raison d'etre to cause trouble there. One would have thought, if they disliked that site that much, they would just stop visiting it altogether, but that isn't so. Instead, they go to some lengths to raise hell there, doing stuff they know they'll get punished for, then complaining about the moderating, while maintaining a (relatively) civil persona over here at the Org. It can't be the moderating that is so much more severe, because they do stuff at TWC that would swiftly result in a permaban here if done here, or at least a self-titled thread in the Watchtower by Tosa.
i will not go back to TWC. thats that.end of discussion, it is over.
Well no you won't... because apparently they banned you.
The thing is, they're not casual trolls. They're people who've settled to some extent in TWC, with significant postcounts (1000+), who have come into conflict with the moderators there, then relocated to here while they were suspended or banned, then made it their TWC raison d'etre to cause trouble there. One would have thought, if they disliked that site that much, they would just stop visiting it altogether, but that isn't so. Instead, they go to some lengths to raise hell there, doing stuff they know they'll get punished for, then complaining about the moderating, while maintaining a (relatively) civil persona over here at the Org. It can't be the moderating that is so much more severe, because they do stuff at TWC that would swiftly result in a permaban here if done here, or at least a self-titled thread in the Watchtower by Tosa.
I've seen stuff like that happen before on other sites. As I see it, it doesn't really have anything to do with TWC in specific. People who do that tend to internalize a conflict with a moderator or website and personalize it to a degree that becomes slightly obsessive. They often gain a persecution complex or otherwise see themselves as wronged or singled out in some manner. This then translates over to intentional troublemaking to strike back at the perceived instigators of their woes.
Their failure to translate that troublemaking to other sites is not so much a comment on the other sites as it is a comment on their obsession with the conflict with the original site. They may not be inherently 'bad' members, but rather become so with reference to a specific place due to their history with that place. This is partly why the most troublesome trolls are almost always people who were regular members for a long time first. Those who get in trouble soon after joining a forum don't have much invested in it and quickly get bored with trolling. Those who have a mental attachment to a forum are more likely to become obsessed with causing problems as retaliation for wrongs they believe were perpetrated on themselves.
This is not unique to TWC. The Org has plenty of people who enjoy causing problems for us and who regularly return with alt accounts to have another go. TWC probably has a lot more simply because their active member base is so much larger than ours.
Pannonian
06-10-2009, 16:15
I've seen stuff like that happen before on other sites. As I see it, it doesn't really have anything to do with TWC in specific. People who do that tend to internalize a conflict with a moderator or website and personalize it to a degree that becomes slightly obsessive. They often gain a persecution complex or otherwise see themselves as wronged or singled out in some manner. This then translates over to intentional troublemaking to strike back at the perceived instigators of their woes.
Their failure to translate that troublemaking to other sites is not so much a comment on the other sites as it is a comment on their obsession with the conflict with the original site. They may not be inherently 'bad' members, but rather become so with reference to a specific place due to their history with that place. This is partly why the most troublesome trolls are almost always people who were regular members for a long time first. Those who get in trouble soon after joining a forum don't have much invested in it and quickly get bored with trolling. Those who have a mental attachment to a forum are more likely to become obsessed with causing problems as retaliation for wrongs they believe were perpetrated on themselves.
This is not unique to TWC. The Org has plenty of people who enjoy causing problems for us and who regularly return with alt accounts to have another go. TWC probably has a lot more simply because their active member base is so much larger than ours.
Fair enough. I'd been wondering why it was that the TWC and Org communities were so different, and how things could be improved. One idea, particularly advanced by Orgahs who've drifted over to TWC, is that the semi-republican structures encourage the powerplays that these trolls indulge in. Another idea is that the membership here is generally older, and certainly liberally dotted with older posters, than the generally younger TWC membership. Then there's the idea you've suggested, which is that the TWC membership is just much bigger, and with a normal distribution, will naturally result in more outliers. From what I've seen, it's probably a mixture of all of these, plus other causes which I haven't found a description for yet.
Oh well, I just wish they'd stop returning to a place they seem to dislike, yet have a fixation on.
Dodge_272
06-10-2009, 16:30
I like both.
TWC is more active however the average IQ drops by about 50% in comparison to this site.
Prussian to the Iron
06-10-2009, 18:34
wow......this somehow went from a "which do you prefer" thread, to a "single mans crusade against TWC" thread, to a "psychology of people who dislike and want to troll TWC" thread. kinda funny how this stuff works eh?
Well no you won't... because apparently they banned you.
for some reason i find this extremely funny.............
i would like to take part in this conversation, being myself a subject of it.
Is it because the Org generally has a more mature audience that looks down on such stuff, whereas TWC has a younger membership that views such stuff as cool?
this seems pretty logical; I usually hang around very intelligent and nice friends (one of them is only 16 and has a scholarship to westpointe!!!) and behave relatively well with them, whereas when i am around my less intelligent and immature friends, i find that i am more accepted when i behave less like my normal self.
Is it because the Tribunal, the political history, etc. of TWC gives them a platform for such antics?
yes. you understand us so well.
Is it the membership or the institutions that cause this, and what can be done to improve things?
as in.......?
you mean other members and the admins/moderators? i don't know what you mean by institution so i'll go with my translation:
other members are usually not that bad, a few outliers but not many.
moderators on the other hand, well, yeah. they are a big problem. i also noticed that most of the older/more popular moderators there (Pontifex, Foot, etc.) are much more fair; not always, but definitely more.
what can be done to fix it? clean out all moderators and simply let the administrator take care of all reports. then, after a month or 2, they could start re-choosing new moderators based on posting manners and etiquette. after a 1 month trial period, the mods would be allowed full priveleges.
also: if there is an appeal in the tribunal, a poll should be included and everyone should be allowed to post in it. then, depending on the poll results, the appeal is either refused or granted.
During the down-time the Org had a couple days ago, I spent some time at the TWC. Especially in the Ethos, Mores, et Monastica forum. I spent a while reading some posts on philosophy and really enjoyed them. I've been visiting the site every day or two now, but have yet to venture out of that particular forum. Though I can't vote in polls which is kind of annoying.
It's a fairly good part of the forum, people tend to just repeat themselves and never budge but overall it's nice.
Prussian to the Iron
06-10-2009, 22:24
should i remove kamos from my ignore list?
Aemilius Paulus
06-10-2009, 23:35
should i remove kamos from my ignore list?
I do believe that is your decision. In any case, please do not lock this thread by going off topic.
Alexandros_III
06-10-2009, 23:35
I think you should leave this thread alone and not come back John, but if you really must stay then at least use a little more grammar.
As to this discussion, I have an acount on TWC that had been there for a while, and for a long time I met mostly mature members, those that knew what they were saying and wanted to be there. The site was, or so I remember, as good as I could have wanted it. But it changed, even through the relatively short time I was there I could see it. As ETW aproached its release date it, and redoubled after it, the site was flooded with new members, some who have proven themselves worthy of being part of the damaged community, but many, many more who acted immaturely and childish. It shocked me how many people who have never even heared of TW before, many who in fact loved ETW but looked publicly down on the rest of the series. I have seen my favorite site dieing before my eyes since it started, and even through the better forums that remain, such as Ethos, Mores, et Monastica and Hegemonia, it hurt.
In this site I have seen what I saw in the older TWC, but I know nothing about it. I see the maturity and thought in the posts, and even with the ocasional troller and flamer ir is better in some ways than TWC. The problem is that TWC has been home, has everything I've done and is bigger; my favorite mods are there, and save EB I cant find them here. I made this thread as a hope that I could solve this problem. But so far I am still not certain which is truly better.
Cultured Drizzt fan
06-10-2009, 23:44
In the end there will always be a little piece of the first TW forum you visited. You will always remember the TWC as a golden age, just like others will think of the Org the same way, you can't change that. but if you are willing to give it a shot, the org is a wonderful place. But then I am one of those people who started in the Org, so I am biased. I say give it a shot here.
MerlinusCDXX
06-11-2009, 00:12
As for me, I use both sites. I was an .orgah first, so I know the people here a bit better. I generally have no problems over there though, I guess that comes from not acting like a durn fool and trying to annoy everyone I come into contact with...
Each site has featured content that I use it for. The EB main fora are here, plus a very interesting RPG I'm playing, so those (and the original reason I joined, MTW, though my new system won't run it) are my main reasons for using this site. The other/ off topic discussions are just bonus, though one can find that at TWC as well. TWC I mainly use to keep abreast of mods that aren't featured here.
Pannonian
06-11-2009, 01:05
In the end there will always be a little piece of the first TW forum you visited. You will always remember the TWC as a golden age, just like others will think of the Otg the same way, you can't change that. but if you are willing to give it a shot, the org is a wonderful place. But then I am one of those people who started in the Org, so I am biased. I say give it a shot here.
The first internet forums I went to were usenet newsgroups, where there were posters who could remember as far back as the 1940s, so my first exposure was to people who generally behaved maturely, whose experience and knowledge I respectedly greatly, among whom I initially lurked, but with whom I eventually discussed topics of mutual interest. My first regular web forum was the Org, and while it was a tad different from usenet (it had moderators, for a start), my forums of choice, the Monastery and Backroom, were sufficiently similar in feel to my old newsgroups for me to feel at ease.
Though I can't vote in polls which is kind of annoying.
You have to have 50 posts in order to vote in polls.
Can seem a bit harsh but it was done for a very good reason.
Think it was during the buildup for M2TW there was this poll on which faction should be added in.
Anyway hordes of eastern europeans(I will not name the country but they were all from the same area) signed on just to vote in this thread.
Naturally this distrupted the whole point of the poll since these people didn't give a damn about TW, they just did it for nationalist reason.
So the 50 post rule got added.
Alexandros_III
06-11-2009, 19:22
You have to have 50 posts in order to vote in polls.
Can seem a bit harsh but it was done for a very good reason.
Think it was during the buildup for M2TW there was this poll on which faction should be added in.
Anyway hordes of eastern europeans(I will not name the country but they were all from the same area) signed on just to vote in this thread.
Naturally this distrupted the whole point of the poll since these people didn't give a damn about TW, they just did it for nationalist reason.
So the 50 post rule got added.
And its everywhere now.
The Blind King of Bohemia
06-11-2009, 23:16
I don't log in to either forums that much anymore but I have to say as a modder I enjoy searching the modding forums of TWC more. Sadly the majority of the modding community has vanished over here
Aemilius Paulus
06-11-2009, 23:17
Anyway hordes of eastern europeans(I will not name the country but they were all from the same area) signed on just to vote in this thread.
What country? What country? What country? What country? What country? What country? What country? What country?
Was it Russia *grin*? Or Poland?
A Very Super Market
06-11-2009, 23:40
Those are obvious factions that would definitely be put into a game. It was probably somewhere more obscure.
Aemilius Paulus
06-11-2009, 23:51
Those are obvious factions that would definitely be put into a game. It was probably somewhere more obscure.
Poland could be insignificant enough in the TW sense. It could have been Bulgaria or Luthania as well. Or even Ukraine. I have no idea how they would represent it in the Late and High Medieval periods though.
Prussian to the Iron
06-11-2009, 23:51
latvia?
Aemilius Paulus
06-11-2009, 23:59
latvia?
Luthania would include Latvia, Luthania, and Estonia, not to mention some parts of Poland, Russia, and Ukraine. Haven't you ever heard of the Grand Duchy of Luthania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania)? It was one of the strongest European powers of its time at its height.
Here is the map:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Lithuanian_state_in_13-15th_centuries.png/429px-Lithuanian_state_in_13-15th_centuries.png
It will lose Ukraine later, but temporarily gain Livonia (also a possible faction). Which is present-day Latvia and Estonia.
Beefy187
06-12-2009, 00:09
This is going off topic, but I'm guessing Romania
Prussian to the Iron
06-12-2009, 01:10
chekoslovakia?
Aemilius Paulus
06-12-2009, 02:33
chekoslovakia?
John, you keep mentioning modern countries. When we are speaking of M2TW. There was no Latvia or Czechoslovakia back then. Not to mention, there is no Czechoslovakia now either. The two nations split after USSR broke up. Czech Republic and Slovakia now. And it is not Cheko either. There is no "cheko" in "czech"
As for Romania, same problem. There was no Romania for long, as the Ottomans quickly took over it. And there was no organised, unified government before the Ottomans either in that place. "Romania" is a relatively modern nation.
MerlinusCDXX
06-12-2009, 04:55
Having seen a bit of the climate over there in the mudpit, I'm gonna guess Serbia (Raska).
Alexandros_III
06-12-2009, 04:56
This is getting a little off topic.
...
Was it Bulgaria?
Prussian to the Iron
06-12-2009, 05:42
LOL
lets just name off every eastern european country and see how much it takes to push Aemilius over the edge!
(jk if you couldnt tell)
Mediteran
06-12-2009, 18:45
Having seen a bit of the climate over there in the mudpit, I'm gonna guess Serbia (Raska).
i think so too
Aemilius Paulus
06-12-2009, 23:08
i think so too
Yeah, actually same here. Serbia was on that border between significant and insignificant enough to be put in TW.
But the thing is, that poll could have been debating factions that were already included in MiNO (Medieval in Name Only - derisive remark all of us M2TW haters use), as it was a pre-M2TW-release thread. Or not, if CA released the the list of all the factions in MiNO by that time.
I see the debate is in full swing over which country it was.
And to be fair it was I guess 2 countries involved.
I'm guessing it was Denmark and England.
Aemilius Paulus
06-13-2009, 02:29
I see the debate is in full swing over which country it was.
And to be fair it was I guess 2 countries involved.
I'm guessing it was Denmark and England.
*facepalm*
Read this entire page. The countries we are guessing are Eastern European and they were most likely not in M2TW. Oh, and it is one country, not two.
cambovenzi
06-13-2009, 06:16
im registered @ both sites.
but i like the org better.
the lack of m2tw convo is killing me tho. (ever since empire came out.. =/)
i just went over to tw, and its a mess IMO.
the guides are all thrown in w/ everything else.
not my taste.
e/ ah. the other thing i wanted to mention is there are more experienced and more helpful posters here from what ive seen.
when i am looking for an answer, there is usually someone who knows what they are talking about here at the org.
i dont usually want to read through pages of two randos who just picked up the game last week, when i am looking for an answer or helpful information.
Alexandros_III
06-13-2009, 07:45
And it seems there are dozens of people who just picked it up last week. I agree.
Viking Prince
06-13-2009, 10:43
I started and am active on TWC, but I enjoy a quiet read of the posts here. Both have their members and habits are hard to change.
As others have noted, both forums are desirable. Both are fun diversions from real life.
*facepalm*
Read this entire page. The countries we are guessing are Eastern European and they were most likely not in M2TW. Oh, and it is one country, not two.
You might wanna check who started this guessing game despite me saying that I will not tell which countries it was lol.
Owen Glyndwr
06-14-2009, 21:26
Anyway hordes of eastern europeans(I will not name the country but they were all from the same area) signed on just to vote in this thread.
Naturally this distrupted the whole point of the poll since these people didn't give a damn about TW, they just did it for nationalist reason.
So the 50 post rule got added.
Lol, pwnage AP.
Luthania would include Latvia, Luthania, and Estonia, not to mention some parts of Poland, Russia, and Ukraine. Haven't you ever heard of the Grand Duchy of Luthania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania)? It was one of the strongest European powers of its time at its height.
Here is the map:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Lithuanian_state_in_13-15th_centuries.png/429px-Lithuanian_state_in_13-15th_centuries.png
It will lose Ukraine later, but temporarily gain Livonia (also a possible faction). Which is present-day Latvia and Estonia.
As you seem to know, what was the basis for the Luthanian expansion.
CmacQ
The Spartan (Returns)
06-15-2009, 23:30
TWC is more active and vibrant. It is also full of the very young, the very loud and the very bigoted. I like the rep system (even though it is abused) and the multifarious badges and medals. There is also a good AAR community there.
The ORG is more serious with less spam and more informed opinions. It feels like the quiet cloisters of academia compared to the three-ring circus of TWC.
But the world definitely needs both, imagine if all we had was the police-state of the COM?I agree, and feel the same way. I used to be a member, but I don't visit any more.
Simple Org is more mature, smaller, and everyone knows everyone.
pevergreen
06-16-2009, 10:29
Simple Org is more mature, smaller, and everyone knows everyone.
Apart from a few posts above you.
We gotta have some fun. :grin2:
Now who are you?
:grin2:
Mediteran
06-16-2009, 11:46
i must say, im liking the guild more and more since i started to follow threads a bit :)
Mithrandir
06-16-2009, 21:05
Thread closed till further notice.
Let me ponder on it wether or not it has any usefulness left. If you feel it should be reopened for a good reason, drop me a PM in my inbox.
Have a nice day.
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