Maccabean Revolt... A SUBMOD for EB II

[Cute Wolf]

Well, according to some people who want a jewish faction in EB II, let's made a submod about them... (but we prepare the historical resource now)... and not making a mess with the primary EB II

This submod will start in 166 BCE... the map is modified a bit... perhaps reducing some Iberians and Celtic settlements, kick out Epeiros (soory for that... I'm not against any Epeirotai fans, but this faction is the most unrelated in this mod... Pyrrhos dies in 272 BC anyways), making British Islands just 3 province (yes, give them all for Casse ).... and then add some territory in the levantine area... (means more city in Israel)


After Mattathias' death about one year later in 166 BCE, his son Judah Maccabee led an army of Jewish dissidents to victory over the Seleucid dynasty in guerrilla warfare

The Maccabeans will start as horde in somewhat near Jerusalem...
Their Family tree is consisting Mattatias (but he's allready dead) as former faction leader...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Maccabean_dynasty.PNG/600px-Maccabean_dynasty.PNG

Their unit is:
---------------------------------------
Judas Maccabeus, (Has the best Command skills) --> Near Jerusalem
Judean Zealot Bodyguards x1
Judean Zealots x1
Iudaioi Taxeis x5
Iudaioi Sphendonitai x1
Asiatikoi Hippakontistai x2
Horde Slingers x5 (horde unit for Judeans, 120 men, but really poor slingers)
Horde Spearmen x5 (horde unit for Judeans, 120 men, but worse than pantodapoi)

Jonathan Maccabeus, faction leader (the first high priest after their father) ; Hiding in the forest
Judean Zealot Bodyguards x1
Pantodapoi Phalangitai x5 (They need some phalanx afterall)
Iudaioi Taxeis x2
Iudaioi Sphendonitai x2
Horde Slingers x5
Horde Spearmen x5

Simon Maccabeus, faction heir ; Near Gaza
Judean Zealot Bodyguards x1
Toxotai Syriakoi x2
Iudaioi Sphendonitai x2
Asiatikoi Hippakontistai x3
Asabaran-i Madean x 2
Horde Slingers x6
Horde Spearmen x4

Eliezer Maccabeus (start near Egypt - so he start with 4 machimoi)
Judean Zealot Bodyguards x1
Machimoi x4
Iudaioi Sphendonitai x2
Horde Slingers x3
Horde Spearmen x2

Jhon Gadii (somewhere arround)
Judean Zealot Bodyguards x1
Horde Slingers x4
Horde Spearmen x5

----------------------------------

An Idea for Zealots ---> Perhaps we could use this model, and change the Skin...
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pahlava/pah_parthohellenikoi_thureophoroi.gif

Use that Parthohellenikoi Thureophoroi model, but add 2 Hp for them, and 13 sword attack like Gaesatae.....

----------------------------------
Need some feedback about suggested Seleukid and Ptolemaic starts, and perhaps another faction's historical condition in 166 BC

Note: Seleukid garrison should be strong enough to give the Player painful start... but their city order is terribly low....

And script should force Roman AI to expand exsplosively....

Thanks

[Cute Wolf]

Hmm... I'll think I will try to mod them first in EB 1.... just wait for your suggestion in starting point...

[Moros]

Well if you make a submod on the maccabean revolt. Wouldn't it be nicer to not only include the Maccabeans but also another faction from the regio which played a major part, first as an ally yet later as rival? Namely the nabataeans?

Also I wonder what zealot bodyguards are? You know it wasn't untill Herod IIRC that there were such things as elite infantry? So a reform should be used. Ioudaioi Ekatontamachoi" meaning "fighters who can best 100 enemies each" with bronze coated thyreos could be an elite unit. I'd make them very thorakitai like, scale armour, thyreos and hellenistic helmet. Also armoured horse archers are an option for after the reforms.
The early army should indeed be mostly light skirmishers and slingers. Arab mercenaries especially nabataean should be added (mostly light infantry, light horse archers and camel archers) as they formed a large part of the army if we should believe Josephus. Not sure how the jews that have done hellenisitc military service should be represented though.

also check out these pictures made from the Spangenhelm magazine (from an EB member, if you like warfare history you should buy it!):
http://www.stephane-lagrange.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=35&Itemid=70

Just to help you guys started. Also I'm not that sure about phalangitai, at all.

Edit: Also 2 HP for zealots? That's ridiculous, you'll find many more units in EB who were fanatic, taken suicide oaths,.... And all of them don't get the extra HP. Some extra morale seems to be in order, but that's it.

[abou]

You have a lot of research to do and there are a couple of books out there which you can use. Namely the ones published by Bar-Kockva. Also, as far as I can tell, the Maccabaeans used cavalry only once and it didn't turn out too well. You also need to examine the fact that this is a revolt manned by Jews and pretty much Jews alone. Ergo, chances are you will have no access to regionals and the phasing-out of phalanx warfare by this time means the Jews would likely not field phalangites.

You will also need to examine what the meaning of Jewish is: religious or ethnic.

Good luck.

[Cute Wolf]

Hmm, I add the phalangitai type because I predict that AS will start pouring Argyraspidai very soon... at least this was the AI I expect to do... Well Nabateans are confirmed faction in EB2 right? so we can use the EB2 Nabateans entirely.... In this time, Phalanx warfare is not yet phased out...

About 2 Hp Zealots... It seems the most logical way to represent "fanatic troops" as they (in game) need to get a killing blow twice... their costs will represent this too...

I hope you read my post before so you can take a look at my mind more clearly...
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=117191

and I didn't want to spam like that: :thumbsdown: better all this spammer helps to get a real historical facts research and help in modelling, map making, skinning, balancing, etc
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=117502

so indeed, I will do deep research about that... especially after EB II relased... so I can choose what faction that will be kicked out and replaced... (Judaea will replace Epeiros)

And aside from historical accuracy, I will like to add certain Playability and balance too... You don't want to play a mod that all you do is praying because all your infantry is crappy? :sweatdrop: this was game afterall, not a real life, and EB is about making, "What if" history...

The game time span will be from 166BCE (Death of Mattathias) up to 4 BCE (Birth of Christ), or 70 AD (Historical sack of Jerusalem), and using 12 turns a year... so the players will find that getting a good trait as a priority...

The Judean Victory condition is somewhat simple, but very challenging indeed... They must own All area from Antioch, Cyprus, Babylon, and Egypt (The Jewish range of Diaspora)... that means they are not only have a mess with AS and Ptolies, but Pahlavans, and Hay as well... The Roman AI also must be scripted on "Mad Conquest" so they will send countless Cohors Reformata against you...:wall: Perhaps Exterminating ROMA, and Kill Romaioi will be added as nice victory condition...:yes:

Perhaps I will include many cheap arab mercs available in the start (with using your starting money of course) coz I don't think a faction that starts with hording condition could have more than 25% of his starting troops not horde type...

@Moros
I didn't understand french....:wall: but I 'll try to search more details about this case...:sweatdrop:
Good pics and representation anyway :2thumbsup: THANKS

[Moros]

Who gave you the idea that there'd be a nabataean faction?

Phalangitai don't belong in a judean unit rooster if you want you're mod to be regarded as somewhat historic. Also there are many fanatics in EB, none of them have 2 HP. An extra HP would make them highly overpowered.

[Cute Wolf]

@ Moros
Well... no Nabateans? and then... lets kick... Syrakousai perhaps? (Allready conquered by Rome...)
I think 2 Hp is the best option for a unit that won't get more than 40 men in Large settings (in RTW), and capable to turn the battle with their furious fight... :yes: ... They also won't get much armour... I played a lot with Wothiz Watha and I must hold them in extreme reserve (only ask them to deliver final charges), and I won't have the same thing happned with a Judean General that should be leading his troops in the frontline... :smash: smashing enemy troops without any kind of fear...
Maybe you'll say that "Berserk" ability will represent them better... even with 1 Hp, but As I know, berserked unit is uncontrolled, and an uncontrolled General Unit is really ridiculous... (but maybe we can made the Regular Zealots as berserkers?)...

thanks:2thumbsup:

And this was the rough timespan... From Israeli foreign affairs: Facts about Israel History

166-160 Maccabean (Hasmonean) revolt against restrictions on practice of Judaism and desecration of the Temple
142-129 Jewish autonomy under Hasmoneans.
129-63 Jewish independence under Hasmonean monarchy.
63 Jerusalem captured by Roman general, Pompey.


63 BCE-313
CE
Roman rule
63-4 BCE

Herod, Roman vassal king, rules the Land of Israel;
Temple in Jerusalem refurbished

(CE - The Common Era)
c. 20-33 Ministry of Jesus of Nazareth
66 Jewish revolt against the Romans
70 Destruction of Jerusalem and Second Temple.

Scripting in 66 BCE, if Romans aren't destroyed yet... they will spawn 7 full stacks that is directed against Levant area...

[Moros]

@ Moros
Well... no Nabateans? and then... lets kick... Syrakousai perhaps? (Allready conquered by Rome...)

The only thing that concerning the nabataeans in EBII is that we planned a regional nabataean camel archer unit, as I told in a thread about wether there'd b camel units in EB II or not. Maybe that's why you thought they were in?

Edit: Note there's still a faction slot or perhaps two that are undecided. If you (or someone else)'d like the nabataeans in, you can always start a case. They seem like a much better candidate than the maccabeans, though I'm in serious doubt of their military power and wether they would last long flanked by the grey death and the yellow fever. On the contrary Arabia is unrepresented, though unit wise there are already many more planned than what we have in EBI.

[Cute Wolf]

well, perhaps I will use whatever the EB II team decided should put on Arabia as starting material...
Now, haow about Zealots?

[MeinPanzer]

OP, if you want some sources for research, here would be your best bets:

Judas Maccabaeus, by Bezalel Bar-Kochva. Probably the best work on the nitty gritty of the Maccabaean revolt, and focuses a lot on the military as well.

The armies of the Hasmonaeans and Herod : from Hellenistic to Roman frameworks, by Israel Shatzman. Doesn't deal with the details of the militaries too much (i.e. composition and armament of forces), but it is an extremely useful study.

Finally, check out this link: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/NewSonsOfLight.html. I would recommend you use the scroll of the War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness carefully, but it can be very helpful for you considering it gives detailed specifications on a fantastical army that is clearly based on the actual Hasmonaean military.

[Moros]

well, perhaps I will use whatever the EB II team decided should put on Arabia as starting material...
Now, haow about Zealots?
I'd give them a morale bonus but never a 2 HP. It was mainly the large numbers of slingers and skirmishers that made their initial armies. And we all experienced that slingers can be an effective force, especially against immobile phalanxes. And cheap too (which is very handy if you only posses one province). So the zealots don't have to be that special, though I'm not sure how to depict them really.

Arbian locals: we'll have bedouins in EB II and normally we'll have probably have about 2 Northern (perhaps even 3?) regionals.

[Jacob Debroedere]

Are you sure zealots took part in the Macabean revolt? I know they did in the Bar Kochba revolt, but I'm not sure about the Macabean.

[Moros]

Are you sure zealots took part in the Macabean revolt? I know they did in the Bar Kochba revolt, but I'm not sure about the Macabean.

What I remember from reading bar kochva a very long time ago and from josephus (not that long ago because of the camlery mentioned) is slingers and skirmishers. I don't think zealots were taking part in Macabean reform, but they should be a recruitable unit at some time IMO.

[Cute Wolf]

Well, Zealots is the most "logical" unit for Judean Elites...

I didn't say Judeans start with one province... They start as Horde... no settlements....

A Slinger could be effective force indeed, but the "Horde Slinger" unit maybe have the worst stat of slingers afterall.. look at this (compare this to EB 1 units)

Compared to the most poor slingers...

type roman missile accensi
dictionary roman_missile_accensi ; Accensi (For Comparison)
category infantry
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier hellenistic_missile_sphendenotai_accensi, 30, 0, 0.85
mount_effect chariot +2, horse -2, elephant +1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 2.8, 3.5, 3.4, 4.8, 5, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 1, 0, stone, 133.2, 27, missile, archery, blunt, none, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 7, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 1, 6, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 1
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, -2
stat_mental 8, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 336, 84, 40, 60, 336
ownership seleucid, slave

Here's my proposal to "Horde Slinger" unit...


type judean horde slingers
dictionary judean_horde_slingers ; Horde Slingers
category infantry
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier hellenistic_missile_sphendenotai_accensi, 60, 0, 0.85
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, horde_unit
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 5, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 1, 1, stone, 120, 25, missile, archery, blunt, none, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 7, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 0, 3, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 1
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, -2
stat_mental 7, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 500, 0, 60, 80, 500
ownership judea(use any faction that will be replaced), slave

did u think that poor missile infantry stand any chance once their bullets was totally spent? (7 attack, 3 defense, low lethality....)
So this was the idea, of adding some phalanx unit (pantodapoi phalangitai) for Judaea, to made them still playable...

Made them all comprised of Gund-i Palta is not a good idea too... too many skirmishers will guarantee your men will be rided down by seleukid Prodromoi

[MeinPanzer]

So this was the idea, of adding some phalanx unit (pantodapoi phalangitai) for Judaea, to made them still playable...

Made them all comprised of Gund-i Palta is not a good idea too... too many skirmishers will guarantee your men will be rided down by seleukid Prodromoi

So are you trying to make the Hasmonaeans historically accurate or "playable" in your terms? Because the two are not compatible in this case. There is no evidence of phalanxes being used by the Hasmonaeans. For a large portion of the Maccabaean revolts, the Hasmonaean forces were composed of little more than skirmishers. It is only after the purification of the temple that the army was expanded and heavier troops were introduced (though even then, these were troops like thureophoroi and perhaps thorakitai for infantry and probably a Hellenistic heavy cavalry unit - definitely no phalangites).

[Cute Wolf]

[EDIT]
[soory] some sort of internet traffic jam was happned... read my post after this

[Cute Wolf]

@MeinPanzer
Bit of Both.. with playability had more weights... And this campaign was "What IF the Judeans field their own heavy infantry....." OH... thanks, you reminded me to made them some Thorakitai skin...

Considering EB II won't be relased soon, I decide to mod them in BI...
Soon (about two month, after my Chemistry competition is over especially...) I will made a faction Preview in RTW Mod forum... but sorry, certainly not in EB 1 forum...

Well, I'll think I want a permission from EB 1 Creator, because after some time adding units, EB 1 Allready hit the hardcode after some units... (try to add 2 units for Horde slingers and horde spearmen... result in CTD... and I'm not yet add their cav's... And I just don't want to mess up the neat EBBS script for my 12 turns per year script... I'm going to use BI because the Judeans was horde at the Start, and for EB I just want to use their awesome units.... and descriptions... and their balanced stats... and sounds...(wait... sounds? I'll think i only copy some of their awesome unit sounds such as Hetairoi... and mix them with vanilla sounds...) some factions like AS, Ptolies, Saba, Romani, Hay, and KH will be an near-exact copy paste from EB I the credit is yours rightfully :2thumbsup:....
just give me some reply, who's i should pm to get their permission please? MAA? Bovi? Foot? others?

well... maybe I should start concepting those factions, and after ready, made a new thread in RTW Modification forum...

At least this mod will mostly look as "EB facelift" mod... centered in Levantine area (spawn from Italy up to Persia)...

The Factions I think I should include is: (some that lies in the fringes of the map is UNPLAYABLE...:yes:)

Maccabeids (The HERO faction of this mod)
Arche Seleukeia
Arche Ptolemaioi
Saba
Nabataea (the Arab Faction)
Hayasdan
Pontos
Pahlavans / Askani (using Astraphoenix's naming mod)
Senatus Populus Que Romanus (unplayable... got enermous AI boost, and sent countless stacks of Units... the Real BAD GUY in this mod... not unkillable though... killing them is the VC for All factions)
Steppe Hordes (unplayable, as they are projected into annoying hordes (1 faction, but many hordes, and unkillable; (respawn if killed)) that roams the northern fringes of this Mod)
Basileon Indo-Hellenikon (unplayable, representing minor kingdoms in the eastern fringes of the Map (1 faction, scattered starting points, and unkillable (respawn also))
Avernii (unplayable and unkillable... start as annoying horde that roams the west fringe of the map... not as numerous as the Steppe Hordes tough...)
Aithiophia (unplayable kingdom that sit in the south portion of the map - unkillable, but not aggresive at all)

The last four fations (Steppe hordes, Basileion Indo-Hellenikon, Avernii, and Aithiophia), didn't get many units, as they are just border guard factions and unkillable...:2thumbsup: the other factions though... get deeper course of units and structures... Including the Bad-Ass Romani... (the main Villain is need a clear representation too... :yes:)

I still need a lot of learning... so thanks for all your advice...:2thumbsup:

Ohh yeah... say this to all the "Jewish faction" spammer.... Please help me in this new mod.... OK?!:2thumbsup:

[Moros]

@MeinPanzer
Bit of Both.. with playability had more weights... And this campaign was "What IF the Judeans field their own heavy infantry....." OH... thanks, you reminded me to made them some Thorakitai skin...

Considering EB II won't be relased soon, I decide to mod them in BI...
Soon (about two month, after my Chemistry competition is over especially...) I will made a faction Preview in RTW Mod forum... but sorry, certainly not in EB 1 forum...

Well, I'll think I want a permission from EB 1 Creator, because after some time adding units, EB 1 Allready hit the hardcode after some units... (try to add 2 units for Horde slingers and horde spearmen... result in CTD... and I'm not yet add their cav's... And I just don't want to mess up the neat EBBS script for my 12 turns per year script... I'm going to use BI because the Judeans was horde at the Start, and for EB I just want to use their awesome units.... and descriptions... and their balanced stats... and sounds...(wait... sounds? I'll think i only copy some of their awesome unit sounds such as Hetairoi... and mix them with vanilla sounds...) some factions like AS, Ptolies, Saba, Romani, Hay, and KH will be an near-exact copy paste from EB I the credit is yours rightfully :2thumbsup:....
just give me some reply, who's i should pm to get their permission please? MAA? Bovi? Foot? others?

well... maybe I should start concepting those factions, and after ready, made a new thread in RTW Modification forum...

At least this mod will mostly look as "EB facelift" mod... centered in Levantine area (spawn from Italy up to Persia)...

The Factions I think I should include is: (some that lies in the fringes of the map is UNPLAYABLE...:yes:)

Maccabeids (The HERO faction of this mod)
Arche Seleukeia
Arche Ptolemaioi
Saba
Nabataea (the Arab Faction)
Hayasdan
Pontos
Pahlavans / Askani (using Astraphoenix's naming mod)
Senatus Populus Que Romanus (unplayable... got enermous AI boost, and sent countless stacks of Units... the Real BAD GUY in this mod... not unkillable though... killing them is the VC for All factions)
Steppe Hordes (unplayable, as they are projected into annoying hordes (1 faction, but many hordes, and unkillable; (respawn if killed)) that roams the northern fringes of this Mod)
Basileon Indo-Hellenikon (unplayable, representing minor kingdoms in the eastern fringes of the Map (1 faction, scattered starting points, and unkillable (respawn also))
Avernii (unplayable and unkillable... start as annoying horde that roams the west fringe of the map... not as numerous as the Steppe Hordes tough...)
Aithiophia (unplayable kingdom that sit in the south portion of the map - unkillable, but not aggresive at all)

The last four fations (Steppe hordes, Basileion Indo-Hellenikon, Avernii, and Aithiophia), didn't get many units, as they are just border guard factions and unkillable...:2thumbsup: the other factions though... get deeper course of units and structures... Including the Bad-Ass Romani... (the main Villain is need a clear representation too... :yes:)

I still need a lot of learning... so thanks for all your advice...:2thumbsup:

Ohh yeah... say this to all the "Jewish faction" spammer.... Please help me in this new mod.... OK?!:2thumbsup:


They did have heavy infantry, just not at the initial revolt. You can't have heavy infantry popping up like that. There wasn't any military culture anymore. At the times of Herod, there was good infantry again. Mostly thureophoroi and thorakitai style (scale was found at masada...) and some heavy infantry and possibly heavy horse archers could be an addition.

Of course if gameplay is much more important than history you can do whatever you want. And calling the Maccabeids a hero-faction, seems to point that way. But I tought to help you started anyway, even though I'm not that familiar with this part of the world and history.

Edit: for permission you can pm any EB member though most of the time it's MAA who gets the requests, as he is our pr and public forum guy.

[abou]

And aside from historical accuracy, I will like to add certain Playability and balance too... You don't want to play a mod that all you do is praying because all your infantry is crappy? :sweatdrop: this was game afterall, not a real life, and EB is about making, "What if" history...So you're beginning to understand how not viable it is to have a Jewish faction so you're compensating? And if you're not going to make it historically accurate, what's the point of using EB then anyway?

And your description of the Maccabaeans/Jews as a "Hero" faction leads me to believe that you have a lot of reading to do. The situation was hardly black & white.

Start reading:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DrmRAAAAMAAJ&q=Religion+and+Religious+practice+in+the+Seleucid+kingdom&dq=Religion+and+Religious+practice+in+the+Seleucid+kingdom&ei=mAElStG3FZmYyAS11unzBg&client=firefox-a&pgis=1

[Cute Wolf]

Allready sent PM to MAA...

After that... I will start doing reserach and seeking help... thanks

@ Abou
I want to use EB as the base of my mod.. but without the EBBS script, and it will run on BI.... EB has solid historical accuracy of the units (aside from awesomeness), so I want to use their units and animation to add EB-ish fellings

[Tellos Athenaios]

@ Abou
I want to use EB as the base of my mod.. but without the EBBS script, and it will run on BI.... EB has solid historical accuracy of the units (aside from awesomeness), so I want to use their units and animation to add EB-ish fellings

NOW I am confused. A submod for EB II which runs on M2TW-K itself, will totally and thoroughly depend on the more & more advanced features exposed therein...and... porting to RTW-BI? Any idea on how you are going to tackle the multiple skins per unit feature? :grin:

[TancredTheNorman]

To Cute Wolf

As a playable faction instead of emerging to give Egypt a hard time (which it desperately needed in the original RTW) they might be best in a seperate setting.

Well in general I like the idea, but the one problem is if you are submodding anyway why keep most of the map?

I would probably have the Romans emerge, and emerge most likely as an ally of the revolt, and an enemy of the Selucids, and the Ptolemys (sorry for the modern spelling here, but I am a bit tired and everyone here knows what I mean :laugh4: )

I also do agree that the Judeans shouldn't have a Phalanx, it was dying out at this time, even Selucids where making a lot of use of other arms like cavalry, and the Ptolemys forces would not have resembled a Greek force despite the use of Greek officers and nobles.

The zealots however confused me. Are they the generals body gaurd units? Are they part of the Horde? Are they elites? If they aren't the generals body gaurd how many will you be able to field without going into debt?

While I like your idea, it could use some work around the edges, I would be glad to help you with some of the history though, but I am no expert on Jewish history.

Abou

Cute-Wolf quoted history. I'm very sorry there was an unjust Selucid King, but that is historically accurate. Between your extremely condescending manner towards her, and your own lack of accuracy I think you have some type of pro-Selucid bias.


This is my answer to did they have zealots in this revolt.

I would say yes, zealotry doesn't neccessarily mean idiocy :clown:

[GMT]

Abou

Cute-Wolf quoted history. I'm very sorry there was an unjust Selucid King, but that is historically accurate. Between your extremely condescending manner towards her, and your own lack of accuracy I think you have some type of pro-Selucid bias.


This is my answer to did they have zealots in this revolt.

I would say yes, zealotry doesn't neccessarily mean idiocy :clown:

Sure and there's absolutly no pro jewish bias in this thread..

Cute-Wolf just wants to create some uber leet jewish faction with wich he can conquer the world. Nothing wrong with that but don't pretend it to be historically accurate then..

[Tellos Athenaios]

Abou

Cute-Wolf quoted history. I'm very sorry there was an unjust Selucid King, but that is historically accurate. Between your extremely condescending manner towards her, and your own lack of accuracy I think you have some type of pro-Selucid bias.

Actually I thought that when it comes to the Seleukid kings they by and large had a rather good relationship with their Jewish subjects? (With of course one famous exception here.) As has been pointed out time and again a Jewish faction is (a) highly speculative unless you start in a scenario where they are already present, (b) weak. They simply don't have anything of a true military of sorts; this is something they'll try to develop later on but they basically start as Apeleutheroi and owe their success largely to the unfavourable (or favourable depending on how you look at it) terrain of Judea which forces armies to go through a small number of well-known routes some of them containing well known locations for ambushes... Nothing of that except the particular sub-par military of the Judeans can be represented in any TW game yet, so a Judean faction works out as beyond-nigh-impossible if you give it what it appears to have had.


This is my answer to did they have zealots in this revolt.

I would say yes, zealotry doesn't neccessarily mean idiocy :clown:

And neither does zealotry neccesarily equate to fighting in distinct units? Which is rather more to the point: did the Judeans group particular fanatic people in a special (`zealot') unit? If yes, then a zealot unit has basis; if no then obviously not.

[Cute Wolf]

Keep up the whole map... to create a bigger challange....
But actually, my real reason is to made the Seleukid also kept up busy in his other borders as well...

I decide to put Zealots as distinct units, made two version of them, bodyguard type (disciplined, with 2 Hp), and normal one (1 Hp w Berserker), they're elite anyway... If u ever play Troy TW, I will made them almost like the Dorians "Lokhos Basileos", but with their Bodyguard type doesn't berserk....

[Dutchhoplite]

I also want to mention:

Judas Maccabeus: Rebel of Israel by Mark Healy and Richard Hook. It might not be the best book on the subject but it's a fun and quick read and it's got some nice pictures ;)

On the phalanx discussion: i firmly believe that the early Maccabees had a force
armed and deployed to the practice of Hellenistic phalanx troops only less well equipped.

[Krusader]

I also want to mention:

Judas Maccabeus: Rebel of Israel by Mark Healy and Richard Hook. It might not be the best book on the subject but it's a fun and quick read and it's got some nice pictures ;)

On the phalanx discussion: i firmly believe that the early Maccabees had a force
armed and deployed to the practice of Hellenistic phalanx troops only less well equipped.

Hmm, what should I go for? Some forum member's word or sources?
Anywho, this is not meant to be historically accurate submod, so for all I care the Jews in this mod can have Merkava IV's :)

[Cute Wolf]

Merkava is the name for chariot isn't? I hope I could get some of those... Chariot archery is certainly still a good way, especially they can have 120 arrows per men and still logical...

WOOPS: you mean tank? LOL

[Krusader]

Merkava is the name for chariot isn't? I hope I could get some of those... Chariot archery is certainly still a good way, especially they can have 120 arrows per men and still logical...

WOOPS: you mean tank? LOL

Yeah meant the tank. That's why I added the IV back, as I know merkava is Hebrew for chariot :)

[bobbin]

Hmm, what should I go for? Some forum member's word or sources?
Anywho, this is not meant to be historically accurate submod, so for all I care the Jews in this mod can have Merkava IV's :)
Ha! Yeah I heard the IDF were pretty active back then:)

[Moros]

On the phalanx discussion: i firmly believe that the early Maccabees had a force
armed and deployed to the practice of Hellenistic phalanx troops only less well equipped.

And your firm believe is based on? I for one believe the earth is a cube.

[Dutchhoplite]

Much everything about this army is based conjecture? The sources are not exactly strong ;)

As for pikes, the Maccabees made an effort at confronting Seleucid armies in open battle and *could* have imitated Hellenistic military practice. Given these two factors, I vote for pikes. But I concede that there is no evidence
beyond logicical assumption.

[Moros]

Much everything about this army is based conjecture? The sources are not exactly strong ;)

As for pikes, the Maccabees made an effort at confronting Seleucid armies in open battle and *could* have imitated Hellenistic military practice. Given these two factors, I vote for pikes. But I concede that there is no evidence
beyond logicical assumption.
Logical assumption would be making the units from avaible archeological data, the use of historical sources (as Josephus) combined with the military standards from the region. Which leads us to thureophoroi like units, when the army was worked out.

For the revolting army however the sources are clear. Mostlyif not completely skirmishers and slingers. You don't believe that an army that revolted had an instant highly trained and equipped army? If that's what logical assumption is, I guess the earth must indeed be a cube.

Pick up a book by Bar-Kochva or even Osprey (I believe they have one on it) if you want at least a somewhat historical basis. If even that isn't wanted well I'd suggest go ahead and give them the Macedonian phalanx.

[Watchman]

Though, pikemen are relatively easy to train if it comes to that; revolting Swedish peasants during the 1500s are known to have formed reasonably decent pike formations in battle, for example (although obviously they weren't of the calibre of professional mercs from the Continent). The main thing is the drill, after all. The Macedonian originals were mostly retrained psiloi too...

Doesn't mean the Israelite rebels had the time and resources to do it, of course. But then they may not have needed to either - AFAIK there's a lot of rugged terrain there where even irregular light troops should well be able to rip close-order heavies, nevermind ones as grossly formation-dependent as pikemen, a proverbial new one.
I daresay a lot bigger tactical headache were probably the cavalry (ever the bane of light infantry in the open) and peltast- and thureophoroi-style lighter infantry which had little trouble in broken terrain...

[Dutchhoplite]

the use of historical sources (as Josephus)

Josephus clearly speaks of phalanxes of both sides. That doesn't sound like a confrontation between a phalanx and poorly equipped skirmishers, does it??


For the revolting army however the sources are clear. Mostlyif not completely skirmishers and slingers. You don't believe that an army that revolted had an instant highly trained and equipped army? If that's what logical assumption is, I guess the earth must indeed be a cube.


What sources Maccabees?? Josphus?? Rather biased don't you think??

By the way, Mr. Maccabeus waved his magic wand and an army sprouted out of the ground. That's the only way possible http://forums.appleinsider.com/images/smilies/1rolleyes.gif


Pick up a book by Bar-Kochva or even Osprey if you want at least a somewhat historical basis (I believe they have one on it)

Errr...please read: Judas Maccabaeus: The Jewish Struggle Against the Seleucids, from page 68 and further.


If even that isn't wanted well I'd suggest go ahead and give them the Macedonian phalanx.

http://forums.appleinsider.com/images/smilies/1rolleyes.gif

[keravnos]

From a post of mine, in TWCENTER

Three units I would love to see are the following... (all 5 are historically attested) --I have taken the liberty of adding more units, as I think they should be done and maybe form a base for a mod which would center on the state that the Makabaioi created.

@Aqd, thanks in advance for any work you might do based on the following. Much appreciated.

-Ioudaioi Klerouchoi, they would be the Cleruchs who would be given land in order to fight for the Hellenistic Kings and/or be used as guard forces to outposts. They were allied to both Alexandros and Ptolemaios (as Josephus recounts-could find the original text if it is required- and given land to settle and priviledges as a result). In Ptolemaic Egypt, they would be considered "Hellenes" and in Ptolemaic Alexandria, just before the death of Cleopatra, they would number 300.000 people out of 600.000 total population.

I picture them looking something like the ones below...
(thureoi found in drawings at the synagogue of Dura Europos), to be used for coloring the thureos shields.

https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos6/DuraEuropos2CentCEcheckTHUREOI.jpg


-Ioudaioi Ekatontamachoi, they would be the "hundred fighters" aka elite fighters of the Makkabaioi (8000 in number, most probably mercs), or the Hasmoneans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean) ."Hundred-fighters" tuted as such because each of them could slay 100 enemies or already had. They would be armed much like the Thureos carrying troops you show there but with a major difference. Their thureoi shields according to the texts we have were bronze coated much like the earlier round "aspis shields" of Classical era hoplites. The bronze coating would go OVER THE FINISHED THUREOS.
http://books.google.gr/books?id=t05okj1LB3QC&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93&dq=hasmonean+hundred+fighters&source=bl&ots=iouuVevkES&sig=1UNHi5I0uESup-ibv7yPlM72z_Q&hl=el&ei=nxMlSp-eH9mOsAakz9GEBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA94,M1

I would give them an "ascalon" helmet

https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos4/Sidonhelmet1.jpg


or a sidon helmet, (the following is from a Ptolemaic grave) (side)
http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/sidontype.JPG

front,
https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/RCasti998/ptolomaic_soldier.jpg

(as it was found in present day Askelon in Israel), a long kopis sword (initially from the cavalry, but the elite infantry units carried it as well) a bronze clad thureos shield (1.1 meters in length)

The thureoi would look something like this...

They would look something like this,
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos4/statuette2.jpg
and
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos4/statuette1.jpg

bronze coated like the following:
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos7/PIC_2767.jpg

Please note that the bronze coating would be hammered into place over a finished thureos. This means that on top of an already existing thureos shield a bronze piece of corresponding dimensions would be placed then hammered and chiseled into place by craftsment. This would ensure added protection to the thureos from blunt instruments that might otherwise crack the wood, with the disadvantage that the thureos shield would weigh more. This, thureos, therefore would only serve its purpose of extended protection for the one carrying it, when they were experienced powerful troops. Otherwise, it would have been too heavy and cumbersome to carry in battle. The bronze coating, even if considered by some as pureley cosmetic did protect the wood underneath and also had and added advantage: It would reflect sunlight on the assaulting enemies breaking their concentration at exactly the time where they would strike by directing the sunlight on their eyes.


Thureos would have a spine (non covered in bronze like the rest of the thureos) and the following as an emblem, one on each side of the spine of the thureos. It would be emblazoned on the shield.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coin_issued_by_Mattathias_Antigonus_c_40BCE.jpg

They would wear a chain mail cuirass exactly like the following Ptolemaic soldier of 145 BCE,
https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/RCasti998/ptolomaic_soldier.jpg

Ioudaioi Zelotai, the following pic is inspired by those who fought in Massada,
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos8/Massadazelotwarrior73CE.jpg

This would be a very interesting unit to have. Recruited in the general area of Israel, with scale armor, NO helmet (therefore reducing their armor somewhat) but with devastating assault and morale. Could attack without orders, though.

Ioudaioi toxotai no further info needed, I think than the pic.
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos8/Massadazelotarcher73BCE.jpg


-Nabataioi Thureophoroi, they would carry a thureos much like anyone else at that time, but the rest of their outfit would ressemble an Arabian of today. They would wear pants as well.
the following...

https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos8/Steppethureophoros.jpg

but with sandals instead of boots and arabic headscarf wrapped around their heads. NO BOW.

[keravnos]

Josephus clearly speaks of phalanxes of both sides. That doesn't sound like a confrontation between a phalanx and poorly equipped skirmishers, does it??


Phalanx does NOT mean pike. Hoplites too could fight in phalanx formation, meaning interlocked shields and organized fighting. Using that reasoning both phallanxes could be composed of thureos carrying troops...
see...


6. The great fault of most interpretations of the military aspects of the scroll to date have been their self-imposed limitation allowing of only two possible interpretations: a Roman model, or a Hellenistic model as depicted in the tactical manuals of Arrian, Aelian and Asklepiodotos. Further possibilities need to be examined - such as a Hellenistic model based not on pike phalanxes, but on the other common Hellenistic line-of battle infantryman - the thureophoros, or even a uniquely Jewish model








Errr...please read: Judas Maccabaeus: The Jewish Struggle Against the Seleucids, from page 68 and further.

Will try to locate that, seems useful.

[Ghaust the Moor]

Sounds intresting. But EBII hasn't come out yet. Are you making this for EBI?

[keravnos]

I posted this here for whomever might make anything out of it. I posted the same post in a thread over at TWCENTER where AqD makes some Eastern units.

[Alexandros_III]

Sounds interesting. I always thought there should have been the Jews in EB1.

[Watchman]

Iudaioi Taxeis.

[Cute Wolf]

I think that experiment will be made on EB-BI first, coz EB II is still long way here...

According to that historical sources, some Jews allready enrolled into Seleukid and Ptolemaic army, and hence, some of them maybe allready got the drill as Pantodapoi phalangitai, or even Klerouchoi... IF they support maccabeans, they shouldn't forget their phalanx drill completely... at least, adding Pantodapoi phalangitai is a logical conclusion...

Ahh, according to the cramped - up EDU of EB 1, I think the first unit to be included is Iudaioi Ekatontamachoi, we can use Dosidastakelii skin and made them as bodyguards...

Anyone had list of units that wasn't used in EB campaign?
I just know some: Dosidastakelli, Ordhmalica, Saka Armoured Nobles,...

And because I want to remove Epeiros (anyway, they are allready long goner in this timeframe...) I want to replace : Mollosianagema and Chaonion Agema too... maybe the Epeirote Strategos was renamed Iudaioi Strategoi...

[Moros]

According to that historical sources, some Jews allready enrolled into Seleukid and Ptolemaic army, and hence, some of them maybe allready got the drill as Pantodapoi phalangitai, or even Klerouchoi... IF they support maccabeans, they shouldn't forget their phalanx drill completely... at least, adding Pantodapoi phalangitai is a logical conclusion...
Yes a lot of jews served in hellenic armies or as mecenaries. Most appear to have fought the thureophoroistyle. Phalangitai aren't a logical addition.

About nabataeans, as I did some research on them to see what possible local arab units we could include. I'd say thureophoroi like unit could be included but shouldn't be avaible from the start (+/- 160BC right?), I'd wait to include them untill the first century BC. You can give them either a hellenic set of clothes (tunic and sandals) or possibly persian inspired ones. (pants and shoes) You might want to think about arming them with axes.

[Moros]

@Keravnos:
just a question: where does this shield come from?
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos7/PIC_2767.jpg

[bobbin]

Its the Witham Sheild, a celtic shield in the British Museum, think they found it near Lincoln.

Edit: here a nice drawing of it to show the features a bit clearer
http://www.britishmuseum.org/images/ps300044_l.jpg

[abou]

I was going to respond to this thread much, much earlier, but two things got in the way: the first is that the ORG went down; the second is that I'm a bit worried being labeled "pro-Seleucid" is a nice way of saying anti-Semitic. I was just want to make it clear that that is certainly not the case; however, having studied history, I take a much more even-handed approach and viewpoint. Also, not being religious, I don't have the ties to the topic that maybe some people do. Furthermore, it is important to remember that, when I stated that the Maccabees definitely do not have the makings of a "hero" faction, I mentioned that the world is not black & white. Essentially, I said that the situation is full of grays - i.e. I am not simply favoring one over the other. However, it is true that I am critical of the Maccabees - especially regarding the hypocrisy on their part once they gained their independence.

Generally, people tend to portray Antiochos IV as some raving lunatic - especially due to Jewish accounts. I think a little bit of inquiry will show otherwise (see Sekunda's note in his appendix in Hellenistic Infantry Reform...). It is also critical to remember that the initial movements toward Hellenization of Jerusalem was begun by the Jews; not Antiochos. Essentially, it was new kids vs. old guard with the former petitioning a change in the status of Jerusalem to a polis, which occurred. This meant that the old charter with which the Jews struck with Antiochos III granting certain rights (exemption from certain taxes, etc) and limitations became defunct, which the old guard didn't like. So what happened?

Well, the old guard didn't like this, did some very nasty things to the new kids, and rebelled. So here, we see the rebellion begun not because of pressure by Antiochos IV, but because of internal conflicts within the Jerusalem.

Now, if you're a ruler and one of your cities revolts, what do you do? Well, back in the old days, you put it down and you put it down hard. The response to the Maccabees' revolt was no different than what anyone else would have received had they done the same. And, honestly, the Jews should be lucky that they didn't revolt when Alexander was around, because if they did we would still be looking for Jerusalem. The main exception is from Antiochos' attempts to establish a cult of Zeus in Jerusalem as he was doing all across the empire to try and cement it.

This, as we know (at least from a modern viewpoint) is not cool. I, however, understand why Antiochos would do such a thing and why it made sense to him. Every fucking religion has a sky-father archetype. Syncretism was so popular back in the day that it made sense to extend a cult of Zeus across the empire for unity. We now know that it isn't always so simple and so banning the Jewish religion (something Antiochos IV only really did in Jerusalem itself) didn't go over so well. Lesson learned: forcing religion down someone's throat is a faux pas.

So what did the Jews do once they gained their freedom? The same damn thing! Their government was corrupt and as they expanded they forced conversions as well as the occasional massacre. That doesn't sound very heroic to me.

So yeah, maybe it isn't PC to claim that a group of people fighting for religious freedom is far from heroic. But hey, that would be ignoring the ugly side of history. And as to my abrasiveness when this initially came up, why wouldn't it be? I, for one, am tired of seeing this topic and about the only thing that hasn't come up has been a request for Jews in lorica segmentata.

So, conclusion:
Antiochos IV's reaction to a revolting populace was no different from what anyone else's response would have been until he banned the religion (the question is, how many would then level the same critique against the Romans and their response to the druids?).

The Maccabees do not have the making of a heroic faction. The initiated a revolt and did it with brutality, and upon getting independence, they did the same damn thing they were fighting against.

[Dutchhoplite]

If you read German P.F. Mittag wrote a very interesting book about Antiochos IV:

Antiochos IV. Epiphanes, Eine politische Biographie.

He's portrayed as a capable and efficient ruler and not as the tyrant in the books of Maccabees or the raving madman he's in Polybius.

[Moros]

Its the Witham Sheild, a celtic shield in the British Museum, think they found it near Lincoln.

That's what I tought, a british shield. That doesn't belong here at all!?

[Watchman]

Unless I'm mistaken he just gave it as an example of what a bronze facing for a thureos-type shield would look like - "bronze coated like the following:", right ?

[Moros]

Gah! I hope I'm reading my course books better than .org posts. It's all the fault of the bloody exams.

[Sarkiss]

And, honestly, the Jews should be lucky that they didn't revolt when Alexander was around, because if they did we would still be looking for Jerusalem.
good one Abou:beam:

So what did the Jews do once they gained their freedom? The same damn thing! Their government was corrupt and as they expanded they forced conversions as well as the occasional massacre. That doesn't sound very heroic to me.
sounds like Chechnya during short period of her "independence"

[Cute Wolf]

Soory for a long time, but now (after causing an Irreversible CTD, and ends up reinstalling EB - BI), now I can correctly alter some of those "Unused" soldiers on EB to judean one...

1st soldiers: Iudsioi Ekatontamachoi (Forgive my Mispelling in the screenshot) -> actually redescribed Dubosaverlavisca... I made them recruitable in the Jewish temple...
https://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/Cutewolf/Iudaioi_00.jpg

2nd soldiers, u can Guess... Zealots!!!, using Ordhmalica, 2 Hp, Berserker, and frightening to all, Just trying to experiments with those "Berserk-able" general unit, or should I use Late Pontos (Who actually downgrade rather than general_unit_upgrade) (Rename them Iudaioi Strategoi)
https://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/Cutewolf/Iudaioi_01.jpg

As u can see I actually ends up modding Casse as Iudaioi... and still in progress... My attempt for Epeirotes just give an unrepairable CTD, even after I revert to the original files...

Anyone had a clue to add Horde units? -> Perhaps I will use Goidilic units to suit them, and maybe Yuezhi one... My attempt to add "Horde_Unit with some Goidilic levies ends up with CTD... (also mod their descr_sm_factions, but failed... what more text files should I mod?

[GMT]

Judean hammer units?? I see you're really going for historical accuracy here ... ~:rolleyes:

[Cute Wolf]

Eng... let me explain... The Hammer... as u can read in their description is: (in my export_unit)


{goidilic_infantry_ordmhornaght} Zealots (Jewish Fanatics)

{goidilic_infantry_ordmhornaght_descr}
Elite\nHardy\nExpert at Hiding in Forests\n\nZealots are the most frightening units in Judean arsenal, these fanatics are armed with simple smith's hammers, and best unleashed into enemy formation, ripping them apart. They only carry the most rudimentary form of armour, and their hammers are most likely construction tools, but their religious fanaticism is their forte, and they are reliable against most kind of units, capable to turn the tide of battle relatively easily... Given their lack of "True" weaponary, these men armed themself with anything available for them, and a mason's hammer is a really good choice for tackling heavily armoured opponents. According to Josephus, these men will carry everything they can found to effectively kill the heavily armoured Hellenic soldiers, and construction tools, such as pickaxe and hammers are among their most common weaponary.

{goidilic_infantry_ordmhornaght_descr_short}
Zealots are the most frightening units in Judean arsenal, these fanatics are armed with simple smith's hammers, and best unleashed into enemy formation, ripping them apart.

That should easily explain them

[Watchman]

Just FYI, but that big clunker is in no way a "simple smith's hammer"... for starters, those tended to be one-hand affairs.

[Tellos Athenaios]

And one would imagine that the big hammers were not at all inexpensive: for starters making something (e.g. the stick and mounting construction) that will actually survive the weight and momentum of the hammer head itself would involve a fair bit of skill too.

[Cute Wolf]

I couldn't find any EB unit that use one handed hammer, or another simple tools rather than Ordhmalicca, and luckily, they are far - far away in the Goidilic line....

Now let's pretend those hammers... are cheap.... used as a tool to smash walls anyway...

[Meneldil]

Wow, awesome. This Maccabean faction is almost better than the good old Bartix.

[Bucefalo]

Why don´t you just reduce the size of the hammer in milkshape? and then make the unit have an one hand animation. You could even give that hammer to another unit which had more of a middle eastern style.

That is if you know how to do it...:book:

I think that if you are not going to do any of that your mod would be more realistic by just using eastern unit with different reskin or even simply different names.
Just my two cents.

[Dutchhoplite]

:shocked2:

[machinor]

If you read German P.F. Mittag wrote a very interesting book about Antiochos IV:

Antiochos IV. Epiphanes, Eine politische Biographie.

He's portrayed as a capable and efficient ruler and not as the tyrant in the books of Maccabees or the raving madman he's in Polybius.
I read that one in parts. Very interesting, I quite liked it. :yes:

[Moros]

I was wrong, the world's a triangle.

[Iraklis]

Sorry for intervening, but to suport Abou's post i will just say this:
"The greatest crimes against humanity where made in the names of Freedom, Democrasy and Relegion."

[bobbin]

and bad spelling:wink2:

[ziegenpeter]

and bad spelling:wink2:

YOU made me laugh, coz u can read my mind!

[Iraklis]

hehe, yea i would agree... (i am dislexic and english aint my original language so sorry)