View Full Version : Neda...
Kadagar_AV
06-23-2009, 22:47
OK, so this woman called neda was killed in Iran.
Was she the only one killed in Iran that day?
Was she the only one killed in the world that day?
My point being: Everyone who dies has a history comparable to this girl... Sure she was cute, sure it's been all a hype...
But isnt it dangerous when we start to trust the news to feed us information? The "news" are not out to get the story straight, they are more interested in viewer numbers...
So how come this murder (Oh, sorry, not murder... in previous talks with americans I came to realise they refuse to see state-ordered assassinations to be murders as they are, well, state ordered).... Let me rephrase, how come this type of "collateral damage" is frowned upon when other types of collateral damage is not?
And why is Neda worth more than the several others who died by the police in Iran the last couple of days?
Don't get me wrong... I am all with the mainstream on the Iranian situation. However, I also think of children who dies of starvation every day... And I also consider the people who died that the media did not deem user friendly enough.
The way i see it, the world is becoming more and more like zombies...
In other words:
Victims? Don't be melodramatic. Look at the people down there. Tell me. Would you really feel any pity if one of those dots stopped moving forever? If I offered you twenty thousand pounds for every dot that stopped, would you really, old man, tell me to keep my money, or would you calculate how many dots you could afford to spare? Free of income tax, old man. Free of income tax — the only way you can save money nowadays.
Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love — they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long.
Kadagar_AV
06-23-2009, 23:02
Nevermind :)
EDITED: keep on :)
KukriKhan
06-23-2009, 23:08
(Oh, sorry, not murder... in previous talks with americans I came to realise they refuse to see state-ordered assassinations to be murders as they are, well, state ordered)
rofl. True to form. High marks for consistency.
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She's the only casualty (so far) caught on video. If 1 picture = 1,000 words, 30 seconds of cellphone vid of a bloody woman's final seconds alive = 15 volumes.
FactionHeir
06-23-2009, 23:14
Going back to the thread about hitting women, its also interesting how the media highlights women protesters being beaten and pretty much ignores the male protesters who suffer the same or worse.
LittleGrizzly
06-23-2009, 23:35
Kadagar do you really need an american reference in every political post... im not a fan of some of thier policys either but give it a break every now and then...
Its just one more level up the shock scale, first its men, then women, children and the old share the last level somewhere. If you add in things like good looking and young just moves it slightly more up the scale. I don't anyone thinks for a second if she had serious skin condition(s) and hardly any teeth left she would have got quite as much attention. My cynical point of view...
Her death is sad and i mourn it equally to all the other people who die in the troubles in Iran...
Isn't this inside the monatorium period ? Not that it matters as no one wishes her ill anyway...
Kadagar_AV
06-23-2009, 23:36
rofl. True to form. High marks for consistency.
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She's the only casualty (so far) caught on video. If 1 picture = 1,000 words, 30 seconds of cellphone vid of a bloody woman's final seconds alive = 15 volumes.
"True to form?" You cant blame me when it is JUST SO EASY... I mean, if someone lets the ball up for a smash I will smash....
Back on topic, you claim you don't know the difference between 15 volumes of death and one woman caught on video?
That is tragic:shame:
Factionheir, Males are born to be brutalised, are we not? It doesnt sound very cool when it is reported that men are being hit by the police...
It's the same all over the world...
A womans broken fingernail is a males broken arm :)
Papewaio
06-23-2009, 23:49
One is a tragic individual we can identify with.
One million is a statistic.
It's the way we relate to things.
Kadagar_AV
06-24-2009, 00:01
LittleGrizzly, you kind of made my point...
since when is it humanitarian, or human, to care about good looks and so on? Do we really need a cute face to see the crime behind the numbers?
Papewaio,
One is a tragic individual we can identify with.
One million is a statistic.
It's the way we relate to things.
Your point is that humankind is too stupid to notice that there is an individual behind every and each number in that statistics?
Now, I dont say you are wrong...
But my point of this thread is more in the direction of: isn't it tragic that it takes a personal experience to see the personal experience behind the numbers?
Papewaio
06-24-2009, 00:14
It could be a self-defense mechanism because the empathy overload would be massive to comprehend a million individual deaths.
That and when it is one, we can identify directly with the person in a one on one situation. We see them through our lens and see them as ourselves, our sister, our brother, mother, father, friend.
One million is far larger then our brains have adapted to socialise with. We can't track all the items that make up the social connections for that many people. An airplane is about the limit our village brains can empathise with.
LittleGrizzly
06-24-2009, 00:21
LittleGrizzly, you kind of made my point...
You should know I charge by the hour and my rates are extortionairy
I kind of worked out that was your point, i was just agreeing without specifically saying so....
Even as a young kid i always thought this was unfair, i made a comment to my mum during the days after Diana's death asking as to why one dead woman gets so much attention
Kadagar_AV
06-24-2009, 00:34
Papewaio, empathy overload?
For me that sounds like something Fox News would come up with... Please do elaborate...
LittleGrizzly, now... It seems disrespectful not to answer you... So : :2thumbsup:
I agree with Pape, if I could feel for a million people at once, the same pain i can feel for an individual, then I'd, I don't know because I can't even imagine it, the way I see it, she is taken as an example, when you apply for a job, you don't write down your ugly traits, you write down the best ones, when you promote a revolution, you show the death of a beautiful innocent woman, not the death of a murderer who happened to help the revolutionaries.
There is a certain bias in this but it seems that even objectively the iranian government is suppressing the people, maybe the press would have more to tell if the government hadn't evicted the press.
Noone says she is worth more, she is just an example, one of many picked to demonstrate what is happening to them all.
Papewaio
06-24-2009, 00:41
Imagine if you will that the grief you feel for one person dying multiplied in a linear fashion by a million. I don't think it is actually a self defense mechanism, I think it is an inability to comprehend... ie what you refer to as stupid... our brains just can't comprehend a million deaths in direct proportion to how we comprehend that of an individual.
LittleGrizzly
06-24-2009, 00:52
when you promote a revolution, you show the death of a beautiful innocent woman, not the death of a murderer who happened to help the revolutionaries.
How about the death of an ugly innocent man... is that any less tragic than a beautiful innocent woman ?
Its shallow (for the beauty part) and sexist (for the woman part) not that i am paticularly disgusted with it, its the same all over put a pretty face on something and you make it more palatable for the masses... ohh and its for the shock value mentioned earlier as well... men beating up men is boring but get a man beating up a woman and you have some headlines...
Edit: On another note even though i think the reasons for choosing this woman aren't exactly pure if her face helps bring down the Iranian leaders then you won't hear me complaining...
In a perfect world....
The thing is that is one of video's that spread around on the net very fast, and was one of the first showing someone who was shot and still is the most graphic one of all the videos. It has the most shock effect, and it shows the face clearly, which helpis identify and relate.
Because of it's effect, it graphicness, it being one of the first video's from Iran to spread about on the net made it a symbol. And symbols give meaning an power to ideal, fights more so than a thousand words.
By all means, let us denounce symbolism.
Alexander the Pretty Good
06-24-2009, 02:56
And we shall make an example of this case in our denunciations!
How about the death of an ugly innocent man... is that any less tragic than a beautiful innocent woman ?
Its shallow (for the beauty part) and sexist (for the woman part) not that i am paticularly disgusted with it, its the same all over put a pretty face on something and you make it more palatable for the masses... ohh and its for the shock value mentioned earlier as well... men beating up men is boring but get a man beating up a woman and you have some headlines...
Would you marry the ugly innocent man as well or are you perhaps shallow and sexist?
I can't speak for women but why most men care more about a beautiful young woman than an ugly old man should be obvious and I would even go as far as to say it's somewhat natural that you care more about people who you find attractive.
People receive those stories with several of their senses, the eyes are one of them, certain things are more attractive to our eyes than others, for people who want to sell more newspapers or get more attention to their cause, using attractive images makes more sense than using less attractive ones.
It's done for other senses as well, for example when you use deodorant or perfume you try to impress others by having a smell they perceive as pleasant, it's very similar, just targeted at another sense IMO.
And even then the choice might have been somewhat random, it's not like everybody who died there was filmed, like I said the press is not allowed to go there so they have to rely on blogs and twitter and maybe iranians only put her pictures up there, it's not like I've checked. :shrug:
rotorgun
06-24-2009, 04:25
To use an old cliche, does not a "picture convey a thousand words?" I am reminded of the infamous film clip of the Saigon Chief of Police shooting a suspected Vietcong sympathizer in the head with his revolver, and how it defined the Vietnam conflict for many from my generation. Despite the using of such footage to increase ratings, I think that ultimately it is meant to highlight the plight of women in Iran. Her death, while only one of perhaps many, touches the world in a way that cannot help but illicit sympathy for the cause of Iranian women. I am deeply saddened by it, even though I don't know all the circumstances surrounding it.
Violence is never for the benefit of the victim, and does little for the perpetrator either, as far as that goes.
And why is Neda worth more than the several others who died by the police in Iran the last couple of days?The short answer is, of course, that her death was caught on tape. :shrug:
Video gives a face to the Iranians, as a propaganda-tool it's priceless, this beautiful girl dying NEDA NEDAAAA is going to haunt everyone for a while. It's really perfection in it's ugliness, the beauty and the beast savage. Someone will always have to answer for this, and that someone will always be the ayatolla's. B b b bye beards, if it isn't today it will be tomorrow. Political islam, it has been emotional. One down.
Big_John
06-24-2009, 06:30
since when is it humanitarian, or human, to care about good looks and so on?humanitarian? dunno. human? probably since about 2 million years ago, give or take.
Alexander the Pretty Good
06-24-2009, 06:31
Hold on Frag. I wouldn't call the war won simply because Iran rejects political Islam (and I doubt they will go that far, at least at the start). Iran has deep cultural/historical roots beyond Arabic Islam, and I'd call Iran an "easy" battleground. Now, if Saudi Arabia rejected political islam...
Hold on Frag.
What Neda is for Iran, is Iran for political islam. The Saudi's are just cavemen sitting on oil, they are hated for their decadence, Iran on the other hand is going to be the failed islamic state, it started there and it's going to end there. Always said that and I am always right, and hardly ever wrong. Can't win this beards nobody ever did.
Alexander the Pretty Good
06-24-2009, 07:09
Interesting. I guess that's just my conclusion taken the other way...
Sheogorath
06-24-2009, 07:10
By all means, let us denounce symbolism.
If you can't sympathize with everybody at once, you shouldn't sympathize with anybody at all. Didn't you learn anything in kindergarten?
Do I really need to add a sarcasm tag?
Samurai Waki
06-24-2009, 07:24
idk, it is terribly difficult to comprehend a million deaths. But whenever I watch something to do with the holocaust the water works pretty much turn on, on their own. But, maybe this is a different case?
LittleGrizzly
06-24-2009, 12:23
Would you marry the ugly innocent man as well or are you perhaps shallow and sexist?
Im shallow and sexist when it comes to finding a mate, but in terms of mourning over strangers i have never met there is no shallowness or sexism. The ugly innocent man's death is as much of a tragedy as the beautiful innocent womans death... to me at least...
Though i am ageist when it comes to people who have been killed, younger is always more of a tragedy...
And why is Neda worth more than the several others who died by the police in Iran the last couple of days?
She's a symbol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol) :shrug:
I don't see why you should get all worked up about the fact that a specific person X has the questionable honor of serving as a symbol.
CountArach
06-24-2009, 13:33
She's a symbol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol) :shrug:
I don't see why you should get all worked up about the fact that a specific person X has the questionable honor of serving as a symbol.
QFT.
Louis VI the Fat
06-24-2009, 16:34
I suppose the premise of this thread is: 'Why is one death person remembered over so many unremembered others?
Or even: why Neda, and not a thousand others, Palestinian, Iraqi, Iranian or others? Or possibly: why not those deaths who could, depending one one's political point of view, be ascribed to the aggression of American and like-minded states?'
Which I am not going to argue here, apart from admitting that the questions can not simply be dismissed as rhetoric.
Why Neda?
Because of what Pape, said, because of what Xiahou said, because of what Andres said.
Because she symbolises innocence struck down by beastliness - an analogy to tyranny oppressing freedom.
Because she is easy to identify with for many people. A homeless man beaten to death, an African starving to death, they are more difficult to identify with than Neda.
Because of many things, not least of which because Neda is, simply, stunningly attractive. Her striking physical appearance combines with the circumstances of her death, with the serene brutality, into a haunting image. I have not been able to watch more than two seconds of the video of her death, nor do I know if I'll ever will or would want to.
A simple foto-collage that I watched earlier brought me to tears already. I couldn't bear watching the video.
She haunts me, she really does.
Also it's not that all those famous pictures that became symbols for causes contained actractive women. It's about time that an atractive woman got in one of them, it's almost as if they were discriminated by the men taking such photographs!
Think about it.
Remember that guy lying in front of a chinese tank? He wasn't an attractive woman.
Remember the little girl from vietnam running as she was getting burned by Napalm? She wasn't attractive woman
Remeber the guy getting shot by a vietnamese officer and his hadngun? Not a pretty gal either.
Remember the jew sitting in front of massgrave getting shot by a german officer in Vinnitsa? Not a pretty girl.
You see it became bloody hell time one of them was pretty girl! No more pictoral descrimination to beautifull women getting killed by governments!
Always said that and I am always right, and hardly ever wrong. Can't win this beards nobody ever did.
I would be surprised if you turned around and said you was always left. :yes:
I would be surprised if you turned around and said you was always left. :yes:
Did you just admit left is backward
CountArach
06-25-2009, 01:16
Did you just admit left is backward
Or right is backwards and you were facing the wrong way from the start.
Seamus Fermanagh
06-25-2009, 03:21
...Remeber the guy getting shot by a vietnamese officer and his hadngun? Not a pretty gal either....
The person whom you label as "the guy" was a Viet Cong spy/infiltrator and had been involved in assassination efforts sans uniform and not during military operations. Like Hale, the deceased too may have regretted only having one life to give for his cause, but that's the breaks for spys during war. No, he certainly was not a pretty gal.
Devastatin Dave
06-25-2009, 03:58
Simply put, its hard to watch a chick you wouldn't mind playing hide the sausage die on camera.
rotorgun
06-25-2009, 04:40
Simply put, its hard to watch a chick you wouldn't mind playing hide the sausage die on camera.
As always Dave, so delicately said.:rolleyes5:
In all seriousness though, I think that the sight of brutality towards women tends to arouse the protective emotions of most males, and the sympathy of most other women. I remember how the deaths of four students at Kent State university in Ohio at the height of the Vietnam War protests moved much of our country. There were also several females killed there as well-young and pretty too. The images are still shocking to look at even now.
you wouldn't mind playing hide the sausage
omfg :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Nedaaaaaaaa Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaave
Alexander the Pretty Good
06-25-2009, 07:08
hide the sausage
You sure that's halal?
Louis VI the Fat
06-25-2009, 12:32
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/24/neda-soltan-iran-family-forced-out
The Iranian authorities have ordered the family of Neda Agha Soltan out of their Tehran home after shocking images of her death were circulated around the world.
Neighbours said that her family no longer lives in the four-floor apartment building on Meshkini Street, in eastern Tehran, having been forced to move since she was killed. The police did not hand the body back to her family, her funeral was cancelled, she was buried without letting her family know and the government banned mourning ceremonies at mosques, the neighbours said.
"We just know that they [the family] were forced to leave their flat," a neighbour said. The Guardian was unable to contact the family directly to confirm if they had been forced to leave.
The government is also accusing protesters of killing Soltan, describing her as a martyr of the Basij militia. Javan, a pro-government newspaper, has gone so far as to blame the recently expelled BBC correspondent, Jon Leyne, of hiring "thugs" to shoot her so he could make a documentary film.
Bastards.
Yeah, sure, that almost makes me want to go there and hire thugs to shoot the government so I can make a documentary. :thumbsdown:
As I said in the other thread, the government clearly show now what a bunch of loons they are, as far as I'm concerned there is no benefit of the doubt left, I really hope Iran has a relatively unbloody revolution and gets rid of those ayatollahs or whatever they're called.
Blaming the BBC, the only good thing to come out of Britain, pfff!
InsaneApache
06-25-2009, 19:23
I suppose the premise of this thread is: 'Why is one death person remembered over so many unremembered others?
Or even: why Neda, and not a thousand others, Palestinian, Iraqi, Iranian or others? Or possibly: why not those deaths who could, depending one one's political point of view, be ascribed to the aggression of American and like-minded states?'
Which I am not going to argue here, apart from admitting that the questions can not simply be dismissed as rhetoric.
Why Neda?
Because of what Pape, said, because of what Xiahou said, because of what Andres said.
Because she symbolises innocence struck down by beastliness - an analogy to tyranny oppressing freedom.
Because she is easy to identify with for many people. A homeless man beaten to death, an African starving to death, they are more difficult to identify with than Neda.
Because of many things, not least of which because Neda is, simply, stunningly attractive. Her striking physical appearance combines with the circumstances of her death, with the serene brutality, into a haunting image. I have not been able to watch more than two seconds of the video of her death, nor do I know if I'll ever will or would want to.
A simple foto-collage that I watched earlier brought me to tears already. I couldn't bear watching the video.
She haunts me, she really does.
I've just steeled myself to watch it. Harrowing. The look in her eyes made me feel very un-nerved. I wish I hadn't but I have so I'll have to live with it. I'm with Pape and the rest about why we feel empathy for one or two people but not tens of thousands. It's more than the brain can handle.
In the immortal words of Ian Dury, what a waste. :shame:
I'm with Pape and the rest about why we feel empathy for one or two people but not tens of thousands. It's more than the brain can handle.
Must be it, I don't remember me becomming cold
rory_20_uk
06-25-2009, 20:24
As dear Stalin put it: "One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic". Humans like a narrative. We respond better to images and video than lines of numbers. The young always are more "interesting" that the old. How often does a bomb kill people - including 3 children or women and children were killed - as though these deaths are somehow more noteworthy that the men who were maimed and killed.
Anything can be normalised by repetition. The first person I saw die was harrowing. When I was doing Care of the Elderly I sat down for lunch, got up half way through to certify someone and then went back and finished my sandwich. :shrug:
~:smoking:
InsaneApache
06-26-2009, 00:31
Aye but you'd go mad without that professional detachment.
Louis VI the Fat
06-27-2009, 00:48
I've just steeled myself to watch it. Harrowing. The look in her eyes made me feel very un-nerved. I wish I hadn't but I have so I'll have to live with it.
:shame:I am still wavering about watching.
As somebody once said (a poet? A priest?): of all the days, the day of your death is the most sacred.
There is a certain sacred intimacy to somebody's dying moments. I am not sure I want to intrude upon it.
There are many reasons to do watch it. Amongst others, Iranians risk everything to make and distribute these videos. Am I disrespectful by knowing but not watching?
This was one of the longest posts I've ever written, in a stream of consciousness to dwarf Joyce, until my computer ate it. The above two sentences will have to make do. :shame:
InsaneApache
06-27-2009, 02:10
It's when these 'far off' struggles hit a presonal level that we take notice. After all, we have better other things to do...
Louis VI the Fat
06-27-2009, 02:27
It's when these 'far off' struggles hit a presonal level that we take notice. After all, we have better other things to do...No one can carry the weight of the world on his shoulders. Taking some interest in others, some empathy, a bit more respect, learning to be a bit kinder in our own little world - this is all we can do.
I would give up all in a struggle for global revolution, after which we all live in paradise forever. But people who've attempted that have done more harm than good - the road to hell is paved with good intentions. And as it is, trying to make some sort of sense of this world is the best I can do. ~:mecry:
Over 500 reported dead, and looks like the regime has hired some thugs. When will we be comming to their aid? Greatest oppertunity ever we can spare some tanks, I say let's kick that butt and win some hearts and minds. Wish there was a hawk in DC right now instead of a voteboy.
When will we be comming to their aid? Greatest oppertunity ever we can spare some tanks, I say let's kick that butt and win some hearts and minds.
When in doubt, invade! Frag, if there's one thing that would unite the reformists with the mullahs, it would be an American invasion. Now put down that copy of Soldier of Fortune and walk away slowly.
When in doubt, invade! Frag, if there's one thing that would unite the reformists with the mullahs, it would be an American invasion.
nah. Doubt they would even fight, way too much uncertainty of the future. They already have to hire thugs, means army is devided.
Frag, you wound like a young Dutch Donald Rumsfeld. These same Iranians fought like hell when Saddam Hussein reached the same conclusions you are achieving now. Even with us selling him weapons, he was unable to beat them.
I don't doubt we could beat their army, but the occupation would be less than fun. Read up on American/Iranian history, starting in 1953. We have a lot of back-and-forth.
Now, if you're volunteering a Dutch invasion, by all means, get to it!
Now, if you're volunteering a Dutch invasion, by all means, get to it!
Pfffft, why not. Sure Israel would like the idea and can lend a hand. Kick it when it's down.
Ser Clegane
06-27-2009, 11:11
means army is devided.
Even if it was - any threat from the outside would probably be the best way to unite it against the outsider.
I cannot believe somebody is seriously suggesting a military intervention from a foreign force to "solve" the whole situation :no:
Why not. It's a pretty big thing that is happening, we should use the momentum. All this talk makes me sick bunch of cowards that we are, these protesters have balls&boobs of steel they deserve our support, military if necesary but we shouldn't let this slip from our hands. With support from Israel we should be able to do some serious damage, together we have 4 times their budget and much better gear. If these beards remain Israel will eventually attack anyway, why not do it now for all the right reasons.
KukriKhan
06-27-2009, 13:10
Airfare Amsterdam to Tehran (http://www.wego.com/flights/airfares/AMS/IKA): less than 1,000 Euros.
Nono, Fragony, I would do that if the opposition outright demanded it, but otherwise it is their revolution and as has been said, it could easily be taken the wrong way.
It might work for a faction that isn't seen as a selfish interventionist power by the iranians, like, I don't know, China perhaps? :laugh4:
I am still wavering about watching.
As somebody once said (a poet? A priest?): of all the days, the day of your death is the most sacred.
There is a certain sacred intimacy to somebody's dying moments. I am not sure I want to intrude upon it.
There are many reasons to do watch it. Amongst others, Iranians risk everything to make and distribute these videos. Am I disrespectful by knowing but not watching?
This was one of the longest posts I've ever written, in a stream of consciousness to dwarf Joyce, until my computer ate it. The above two sentences will have to make do. :shame:
I wouldn't watch it if I were you.
Disclaimer, I did, partially on accident. My extreme curiosity has made me see things on the internet that I will regret watching the rest of my life, and sometimes do very much haunt me. I have woken up from nightmares in cold sweats before from the things I've seen, and I'm not joking or being overly dramatic.
I think not watching carries no stigma whatsoever, nor is it disrespectful in any way, shape, or form to her memory or the cause that she's come to symbolize. Forcing yourself to watch won't give you any greater insight or depth, or ability to intelligently discuss the situation.
My $0.02 USD.
Nono, Fragony, I would do that if the opposition outright demanded it, but otherwise it is their revolution and as has been said, it could easily be taken the wrong way.
Maybe but we want it gone regardless no, might be being overly hawkish here but regime change wouldn't hurt. Don't seem too popular anyway.
KukriKhan
06-27-2009, 13:44
rather pointless
Really? I thought you were volunteering to do some recon work before we send in US tanks, etc.
It's only a 7-hour flight; you could fly out this evening, arrive tomorrow morning, check out the real situation on the ground, visit Neda's house and family, maybe meet with a mullah or two, and be back home, letting us know what the deal is by Tuesday. I applaud your courage. :jumping:
edit, that was more then a little bit stupid I hope I got it in time.
Cute Wolf
06-27-2009, 14:31
Actually, every goverments have their rights to protect their authority, but sometimes, they pressed too far... Public execution as this aren't necessary... they just made the autorithy image fall... this case of Neda is the perfect example
KukriKhan
06-28-2009, 02:26
edit, that was more then a little bit stupid I hope I got it in time.
I no longer have the ability to retrieve your pre-edit remarks (Moderators can, but I gave up the robes to walk and talk among the mortals). So, I imagine your words might have been critical of my post which you maybe imagine as facetious. If that's the case, let me be clear:
I will meet you there. In Tehran. I am on your side on the Neda issue; I see a people enslaved to a regime and a governmental concept that requires the abject humiliation, degradation, harm and death of those not in power, to preserve that power.
It is wrong, and words fail to express the bile-full level of disgust and revulsion I feel; and the resolve that "Dammit, somebody hasta do something".
I'm just suggesting that, before we send our sons and grandsons into battle, we be willing to fight those battles ourselves, personally. Internet support is nice, but not enough, compared to the patriots risking their lives on the streets of Tehran, where that country's history will be decided.
They're a proud folk, those Persians. And they have kicked religious butt before. Let's see if they still wanna, in pursuit of freedom.
InsaneApache
06-28-2009, 03:07
Blimey.
Louis VI the Fat
06-28-2009, 04:02
Seven handshakes. They say everybody is connected to everybody on the planet, no more than seven handshakes removed.
Neda Agha Soltan was helped by a doctor. This doctor is Arash Hejazi, he is seen in the video. Arash Hejazi is a friend of Paolo Coelho. Paolo Coelho is a Brazilian novelist who lives in Saint-Martin, Southwest France. Where he lives not far from 'x', or so x told to 'y' - who is a friend of mine!!
Five links. If x has ever shook hands with Coelho, that makes it only five handshakes to Neda. :smitten:
They're a proud folk, those Persians. And they have kicked religious butt before. Let's see if they still wanna, in pursuit of freedom.
Yes they do https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtKshycrCrs
These people are out natural allies, want that moderate islam europe, well there it is. With helping them we are also helping ourselves because we remove the political islam's self-proclaimed legitimacy, save the muslims from the mullah's, perfection.
If the Iranian army is too busy being shot to pieces, who's going to stop them.
edit: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8122871.stm
pssssst Brown, don't want to be a wormtongue but someone thinks you are a wuss
HopAlongBunny
06-29-2009, 07:12
Is this the beginning of an International Brigade for the Iranian Revolution?
The spirit that ignited Spain still lives! Do you need words or sheet music for The Internationale?
Meneldil
06-29-2009, 09:08
If there's one thing people should have learnt since 1789, it's to not intervene when people are making a revolution in their own country.
Best way to turn the conflict into an endless and bitter civil war that will still have political effects in 300 years.
If the Iranians cannot fight off their government by themselves, then it sadly means the revolution was doomed from the start.
A revolution is one of the most important event that may happen to a country. It has to be 'pure', it has to be regarded as a great(est) achievement. It has to be the fight of a people against its tyrannic rulers. It's by no means the business of the US, the EU, China or anyone else.
I trully wish them the best of luck. Something potentially huge is happening in Iran. But this is their fight, not ours.
Something potentially huge is happening in Iran. But this is their fight, not ours.
Ya got a little ahead of myself, your right
Louis VI the Fat
06-29-2009, 13:41
If there's one thing people should have learnt since 1789, it's to not intervene when people are making a revolution in their own country. What of foreign intervention in the Revolution of 1776? :sneaky:
What of foreign intervention in the Revolution of 1776? :sneaky:
If the Iranians send the equivalent of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson to request our intervention, I'm sure we can work something out. What we should never, ever do is intervene without a clear local mandate.
KukriKhan
06-29-2009, 14:36
If the Iranians send the equivalent of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson to request our intervention, I'm sure we can work something out. What we should never, ever do is intervene without a clear local mandate.
Agreed.
-edit-
and a solid plan for entry and exit, with timelines.
@ Lemur and Kukri
In this instance, I gotta respectfully disagree.
This is Iran's fight, and the Iranian people as a whole need to figure out how and where they want to go in this world. We need to stay out of this one, not only because it's not our fight, but we need to undo a lot of the damage that Bush et al did to our global reputation in the past 8 years, specifically that we can't keep our noses out of other sovereign nation's business. If some duder comes over here and asks for help, then I'll give him a good warm meal, bind up his wounds, give him a dry place to sleep for a night, and then politely tell him he has my thoughts and moral support before shaking his hand and sending him back (if he wants to go back).
While the references to the American revolution are very thought provoking, I think the general scenarios and situations are vastly different. As such my opinion stands. I truly wish them all the best of luck and hope they can figure this out with an absolute minimum of violence and bloodshed. IF they manage to pull this off, then I think their Iraqi neighbors could stand to learn a very good lesson from this, about self actualization and what it means and takes to live free.
Meneldil
06-29-2009, 17:15
What of foreign intervention in the Revolution of 1776? :sneaky:
1776 was a war as much as it was a revolution. France helped with the war part, and only when asked clearly, after it became clear that a victory was possible.
Tbh, there's little similarities between 1776 and the current protests in Iran IMHO.
I just watched the video and felt nothing. Sure it's a terrible loss of life, but I find it hard to feel anything for people that I don't know. They are just images on a screne to me. Someone I don't know killed someone I will never meet in a situation I can do nothing about :shrug: I just can't muster up any feelings, and I don't see why I should worry myself.
LittleGrizzly
07-01-2009, 21:51
TBH same here miotas, i can watch hundreds slughtered on TV without much feeling, logically i know its a waste and terrible for all her loved ones... emotionally the event is removed from me and me from it...
I always figured i was just a bit of a cold person... or maybe your a cold hearted person too miotas ~;)
That being said get me watching a character in a move or something and build the person up to me (add a few joints) then kill them in some tragic or heroic way and ill blubber like a little girl... only when im by myself... don't tell anyone okay ? ~;)
You don't understand what's going on there, this could be just as important as the collapse of the wall.
LittleGrizzly
07-02-2009, 01:41
Its not that its not important, I think it is or hope it could be. I just don't really get an emotional attachment to people i don't know...
and build the person up to me (add a few joints)
So you have more feelings for spider people?
Prodigal
07-02-2009, 19:04
Read through most of the posts, & no her life is not worth more than any others. Which does raise the valid question, why all the attention?
She is almost certainly being used symbolically due to her being young, female & dressed in a manner that a vast majority of the people on the planet can relate to.
This ticks a lot of boxes that people anywhere can empathise with; she's pretty, young, she could be your sister, your girlfriend, or just someone who didn't deserve to get shot in the neck for no reason. Sure this sort of stuff happens alot everyday, everywhere, but what is happening in Iran isn't your everyday run of the mill sheet.
If you haven't seen the vid of her looking toward the camera while dieing and bleeding out, I wouldn't recommend it. But if you're over 16 and cannot undertand what all the fuss is about, take a look on liveleak; it should still be there.
LittleGrizzly
07-02-2009, 19:43
So you have more feelings for spider people?
:laugh4::laugh4:
What I meant was build up an emotional attachment to the character and if im stoned...
Louis VI the Fat
07-06-2009, 04:34
Ahmadinejad asks Judiciary to solve Neda Agha-Soltan murder case
Tehran Times Political Desk
TEHRAN -- Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has asked Judiciary Chief Ayatollah Mahmoud Hashemi Shahroudi to thoroughly investigate the “suspicious” murder of Neda Agha-Soltan, who was shot dead in post-election unrest on June 20.
In a letter sent to the Judiciary chief on Monday, Ahmadinejad stated that foreign media outlets and the enemies of the country have used this tragic incident to tarnish the image of the Islamic Republic.
“Thus it is requested that… the Judiciary seriously investigate the murder of the deceased lady and identify the perpetrators of the criminal act and bring them to justice,” part of the letter read
Tehran Times, July 12 (yes) (http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=197959).
So I guess Neda's death is an embarrasment to Ahmadinejad then? :yes:
I wonder who'll the investigation will name as perpetrator: some British diplomat, a Zionist, or a patsy Iranian law enforcer.
Louis VI the Fat
07-06-2009, 19:12
Video? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=FR&hl=fr&v=AIyLCOSDIlo)
My insolent computer refuses to play video at the moment. I believe the link above leads to a new video of Neda, which surfaced this weekend. It gives the lie to several previous explanations by the Iranian government.
Iranian government reactions
On June 23, it was reported that government authorities had directed Agha-Soltan's family to remove the black mourning banners from outside their residence in order to prevent the home from becoming a place of pilgrimage.[46]
Iran's ambassador to Mexico, Mohammad Hassan Ghadiri, suggested in an interview that the CIA could have been involved in her death.[47] Ambassaor Ghadiri questioned how the shooting was video taped so effectively, asserting that the incident occurred away from other demonstrations. He also stated that using a woman would be more effective in accomplishing the goals which the CIA is purported to desire.[48]
Ambassador Ghadiri also said Agha-Soltan was shot in the head from behind and that "the bullet that was found in her head was not a bullet that you could find in Iran", contradicting the account of Doctor Hejazi, who said she was shot in the chest from in front, as there was no exit wound.[49] Hejazi is the man seen in the video placing his hands on Agha-Soltan's chest to staunch her bleeding, as described under Circumstances of death. It is noteworthy that the Basij millitant who shot Saeed Hajjarian did not use a gun normally used by Iranian arm forces either.
During his Friday sermon on June 26, the Supreme Leader's appointed speaker Ayatollah Ahmad Khatami said "evidence shows that [protesters] have done it themselves and have raised propaganda against the system."[50] Witnesses at the scene of the shooting said Agha-Soltan was shot by a member of the pro-government Basij militia.
Iran's police chief, brigadier general Ahmadi-Moghaddam told the press on June 30 that the Iranian police and ministry of information filed an arrest warrant for Interpol to arrest Dr. Arash Hejazi, an eyewitness of Neda's death for poisoning the international atmosphere against the Iranian government and telling misinformation to the foreign media about Neda's death.[51] In fact, Dr. Hejazi's name is not in the Interpol's website's wanted list.[52][53]
On July 4, the head of Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting, Ezzatollah Zarghami told the press that the videos of Neda's death were all fake and are produced by BBC and CNN.All these different explanations by different Iranian officials at least tell us two things:
Neda is a continuing embarrasment to the Iranian state.
The Iranian state and its branches are fluid, ridden with strife, competing against one another.
InsaneApache
07-07-2009, 00:04
Very sad.
Louis VI the Fat
07-07-2009, 00:21
https://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2654/250609stevebellonir001.jpg (https://img22.imageshack.us/i/250609stevebellonir001.jpg/)
Iran's police chief, brigadier general Ahmadi-Moghaddam told the press on June 30 that the Iranian police and ministry of information filed an arrest warrant for Interpol to arrest Dr. Arash Hejazi, an eyewitness of Neda's death for poisoning the international atmosphere against the Iranian government and telling misinformation to the foreign media about Neda's death.[51] In fact, Dr. Hejazi's name is not in the Interpol's website's wanted list.[52][53]
Good for Interpol. Like I've previously said, I hope for young Iranians this is the start of a new beginning.
https://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2654/250609stevebellonir001.jpg (https://img22.imageshack.us/i/250609stevebellonir001.jpg/)
muha
American Documentary about Neda to be shown in Iran on the eve of the Anniversary of the election (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/iran-protest-victim-neda-agha-soltan-film)
The Documentary can be seen HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F48SinuEHIk) (Obviously, it's graphic in places
EDIT: But very, very, very good.)
Yup, looks like HBO's giving this one away.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F48SinuEHIk
So powerful, going to haunt me for while.
Ugilness vs Beauty 1 - 0
good find Subotan
Louis VI the Fat
06-08-2010, 00:26
Excllent, and thanks for the link.
PBS last year made a rather good documentary about Neda too:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tehranbureau/deathintehran/view/
One year onwards, it is still not available to foreign viewers. YouTube does have it, it is available via torrents too. ('Frontine. A Death in Tehran')
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV1DQBM1whc
Louis VI the Fat
06-11-2010, 18:15
A remarkable series of interviews with former members of the Iran (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/iran)'s Revolutionary Guard today offer a rare insight into one of the world's most oppressive regimes.
The four men, who have fled Iran and are in hiding in Turkey and Thailand, speak out in a documentary produced by Guardian Films and the Bureau of Investigative Journalism.
In testimony provided by the men, at least one of whom was part of last year's crackdown on opposition to the Iranian regime, the film reveals:
• Deep divisions within the Revolutionary Guard, the powerful military organisation at the heart of the Iranian state, which have widened since last year's repression of the so-called green opposition.
• Firsthand accounts of the measures taken to crush the popular protests that erupted in the wake of last June's presidential elections. The men interviewed describe the widespread use of rape and torture by the regime.
• A ruling elite so unsettled by the uprising that it had a plane on standby ready to fly the president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and the supreme leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, to Syria at a moment's notice.
One former guard interviewed for the film says that until he fled the country earlier this year, he was part of the security team surrounding Khamenei. "I want people outside to know what is happening and what this regime is doing to them," says Muhammed Hussein Torkaman. He accuses the regime of betraying the values of the 1979 revolution in an effort to keep a grip on power.
Another former guard accuses the government of filling the ranks of the guards with young men from the countryside willing to carry out brutal assaults which more senior officers would not countenance. "The majority of these recruits ... have no idea of right or wrong," he says. The regime "hands them weapons and these young people come into the streets and commit acts of murder".
Iran's opposition leaders have called off rallies to mark the anniversary of last year's presidential election, in which Ahmadinejad controversially claimed victory. The decision is being seen as a setback for the pro-democracy movement.
Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/11/iran-revolutionary-guards-regime). A fine insight into how opression operates.
Semi-literate conservative hicks from the countryside, used by a regime to beat up the educated urban middle class - now that's not really a first. :shame:
Not a first either, is the widespread use of rape as a means of opression. A direct, physical symbol and instrument of oppression. At once the means and (psychological) ends of subjugation. :furious3:
Nice ain't it, a shame we only have the time to be outraged at one country at a time. Iran is definatily on my persons I don't like list, UNhjumenritescummizionslolz
new footage by the way absolutely :daisy: graphic and positively heartbreaking https://www.youtube.com/verify_controversy?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D2mZlSkAuHnY
Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/11/iran-revolutionary-guards-regime). A fine insight into how opression operates.
Semi-literate conservative hicks from the countryside, used by a regime to beat up the educated urban middle class - now that's not really a first. :shame:
Not a first either, is the widespread use of rape as a means of opression. A direct, physical symbol and instrument of oppression. At once the means and (psychological) ends of subjugation. :furious3:
The video is really good, and it's interesting that the regime had to bus in thugs from other countries to control the protests
Nice ain't it, a shame we only have the time to be outraged at one country at a time. Iran is definatily on my persons I don't like list, UNhjumenritescummizionslolz
When they are on the very short list of people both Fragony and Subotan dislike, there's definitely some justification.
new footage by the way absolutely :daisy: graphic and positively heartbreaking https://www.youtube.com/verify_controversy?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D2mZlSkAuHnY
Absolutely awful. Going off tangent for a second, as TGA is a raging Europhile, you'll probably disagree with him on the majority of issues (Whilst I adore his work), but it's hard to disagree with this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/09/iran-tortured-green-elections-nuclear
Iran will never again be the country it was before the election of 12 June 2009. In the great demonstration three days later, one of the largest in recorded history, everything was changed, changed utterly. In the subsequent repression, a terrible beauty was born. The historical process may take years, but one day, as the economy worsens and discontent spreads to more sections of society, the movement will be back in force, though perhaps in a different form. Eventually, in Iran there will be statues of Neda Agha-Sultan, the young woman shot in one of the early mass demonstrations, and memorials to the martyrs of this struggle for freedom, as there are now memorials to the martyrs of the Iran-Iraq war.
This is much bigger than people give it credit for, this could be the end of the vicious political islam. It's started there (well Egypt really) and there it CAN end. If these savages get turned over by the people they pretend to represent it could change everything
I miss AdrianII here for some Gilles Keppel fanboyism but the islamic world is so terribly in shambles, losing not winning; it's dying in a modern age.
Iran is screwed, they can't win this, they started torturing the kids of their own party-members
Saudi Arabia will have to bite the dust as well though for that to happen, which may come sooner than we think, given that their public official estimates for the amount of oil under their feet have remained exactly the same for about a decade. The UAE collapsing would also be nice (Since the Taliban get more funds from overseas donations than from poppy farming)
that's a good thing no? yay for us
The sooner the better really.
Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/11/iran-revolutionary-guards-regime). A fine insight into how opression operates.
Semi-literate conservative hicks from the countryside, used by a regime to beat up the educated urban middle class - now that's not really a first. :shame:
Why did I, for whatever reason, just associate your comment with republican terrority, USA? Was that intentional on your part, or just an association I made?
Louis VI the Fat
06-12-2010, 23:58
Why did I, for whatever reason, just associate your comment with republican terrority, USA? Was that intentional on your part, or just an association I made?'Hicks' for my want of a better word. I was thinking more of the Romanian tradition of bussing around hordes of miners to beat up protests with pickaxes and shovels, both before and after 1989.
Or drunk metal wokers elsewhere, who get provided with a few botlles of vodka and steel pipes. The Zulu hordes in South Africa in the mid-nineties. The drugged child soldiers in so many African countries.
It is a tried and tested tactic. All societies have a ready reservoir of some horde of agressive, semi-literate men, ready to be unleashed like a band of orcs by some clever Saruman.
Absolute balls and mostly boobs of steel, republican guard has been hauled in and yet thousands are on the streets. This is bigger than the fall of the wall, if they succeed it will be the death of islamism and we can finally start treating eachother as human beings, the enlightment of islam is happening right now and it's happening in Teheran.
allho akbar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16_Y42rpol0&feature=player_embedded
Small protests, not so small from what I've heard of but what can you be sure of in mullah-land. They should understand that there is no greater force than people desiring individual freedom, these bearded pricks can't win the die has been cast. If it isn't now it's soon, this is not going to end unlesss these bearded pricks kill everyone, good luck doing that.
This is bigger than the fall of the wall, if they succeed it will be the death of islamism and we can finally start treating eachother as human beings, the enlightment of islam is happening right now and it's happening in Teheran.
Fragony, at moments such as these, I truly admire and respect you :bow:, and I could not agree more.
Small protests, not so small from what I've heard of but what can you be sure of in mullah-land. They should understand that there is no greater force than people desiring individual freedom, these bearded pricks can't win the die has been cast. If it isn't now it's soon, this is not going to end unlesss these bearded pricks kill everyone, good luck doing that.
I'm racking up a huge amount of combos here. This must be the longest chain of posts you've ever made where I've agreed with every single one of them.
Fragony, at moments such as these, I truly admire and respect you :bow:, and I could not agree more.
:balloon2:
Fragony, at moments such as these, I truly admire and respect you :bow:, and I could not agree more.
Thx Hax
Seamus Fermanagh
06-13-2010, 15:08
Thx Hax
I wouldn't go so far as to label it bigger than "The Wall," but it is very important and I find myself in agreement with Frags as well.
I wonder, if a random Iranian sniper assassinated the head of the country, would the protestors cheer or be angry against the sniper?
PanzerJaeger
06-14-2010, 03:40
Small protests, not so small from what I've heard of but what can you be sure of in mullah-land. They should understand that there is no greater force than people desiring individual freedom, these bearded pricks can't win the die has been cast. If it isn't now it's soon, this is not going to end unlesss these bearded pricks kill everyone, good luck doing that.
I wish I could agree, but I believe instinctual self preservation far outweighs the desire for freedom for the vast majority of people. Neda wasn't the symbol for a revolt, she was the best argument against it. Once the government started using live ammunition, once the people saw poor girls like her dying on the street, the green revolution fell apart. As long as the mullahs control the weapons, they will be able to maintain their grip on power. That's why many Americans are so adamant about our gun rights.
We need to be funneling weapons and support to anti-government forces. Hell, it's the least we can do to return the favor they've been doing for us in Iraq and Afghanistan for years.
They can be arrested at any time, in prison they will be tortured and raped male or female, this is one sick regime. Yet these people are still fighting, I think I would have accepted for being opressed by now, I think I would be a coward. These people aren't scared of anything, and they have so much to lose. Who's going to stop them if such sadistic barbarism can't scare them of? The real islamic revolution is on it's way, this is going to end exactly where it started, and no Islamist will have any legitimacy when condemning us in the west anymore.
We need to be funneling weapons and support to anti-government forces. Hell, it's the least we can do to return the favor they've been doing for us in Iraq and Afghanistan for years.
I'm not well versed in modern history but it seems to me that violent revolutions in our time just don't have the same success rate as they did in the 1700's.I think a Ghandi style revolution in Iran would be preferable and much more successful in the long run than a violent one.
We need to be funneling weapons and support to anti-government forces. Hell, it's the least we can do to return the favor they've been doing for us in Iraq and Afghanistan for years.
The Iranian government derives a lot of it's legitimacy from anti-American nationalism, and the ability to stand up to a West plotting to hurt the Iranian people. Funneling weapons to the Green movement will neither advance the goals of the Green movement nor weaken the Iranian Government's propaganda.
I'm not well versed in modern history but it seems to me that violent revolutions in our time just don't have the same success rate as they did in the 1700's.I think a Ghandi style revolution in Iran would be preferable and much more successful in the long run than a violent one.
Agreed, peaceful protest is the way to go. Let these bearded jerks act like the vicious dogs that they are raping and torturing is all they understand, more innocent people will have to be raped and tortured before this is over, c'est ca. Pretty frustrating but they are on their own, my initial sentiment is invade the :daisy: and do harm to them personallybut that isn't very productive in the long run. There comes a point when even for the violent the violence becomes unbearable, they will have to keep killing their own, these people already lost. They know that they have a plane fueled and ready 24/7, it should be able to haul beard and take of to Syria in 20 minutes at all times.
but that isn't very productive in the long run.
This is what it's all about, and it's exactly why I agree with Fragony in the first case.
Isn't going to work if nobody writes about it, where the hell is the so-called quality journalism, too busy hiding with a telelens in some Israeli bush waiting for a jew to fart I guess. These :daisy: hypocrites, whorenalists.
A bit crass, this. Doesn't break any rules but isn't the best use of "The King's," so everyone try to spin up the quality level, okay?
Is that Western journalists, Frag?
Is that Western journalists, Frag?
Yes absolutely, showed the docu you posted to a friend of mine, he was in absolute shock he had no idea that this was going on, never even heard of poor little Neda. He's no idiot, nobody told him. Neda means voice no? Kinda pointless in a vaccuum.
Didn't Iran expel all foreign journalists? Are they supposed to write about twitter rumours now?
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