EB Online Tournement Battle Report Thread

[antisocialmunky]

Saba is more winning than KH is :-(.

[Jebivjetar]

Yesterday was a bloody day... Armies of Carthage and Rome fought a battle and it could be described as a very long butchering on the both side.

The pre-battle deal was that Romans should attack (i've balanced my army just for defense), while Carthaginians should hold their lines to defend them selves. After a long skirmish, Roman main line came close to Carthaginian and after some time of waiting we decided to attack: if anyone is about to see that reply, he will understand why defenders attacked.

Very bad decisions were made on the both sides, and the battle was somewhat confusing and "weird". At the end, 2 Carthaginian elite pikemen saved the day, and with a few survivors bloody flower of victory goes to Carthage.

Spiritus: gg + wg (weird game) :beam:

http://www.filefront.com/14088573/SpiritusVsJebiWIN.rpy//

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

my battle against a new player, french-legionary, we played for tournament.

http://www.gigasize.com/get.php/3198582081/vslegionary1.rpy

imperial legion vs AS phalanxes: was intense battle, french-legionary formation was very close but my auxilliary knights did good work.
They killed AS cavalry and, after that, charge from back the phalanxes.
Thorakitai tried to protect phalanxes, but was too late and battle was lost for AS.

GG legionary at the next :beam:

another battle that i won against another great opponent: jinandjuice

http://www.gigasize.com/get.php/3198582798/jinandreplay.rpy

The same imperial legion attaked an AS army in grassy plain.

Thank you jinand for being worthy opponent.



My score:

:2thumbsup: tsidneku(pontos), darius(chartage) x 2, hiero(KH) x 2, parallel pain(sabean),
gabeed(casse), french-legionary(AS), jinandjuice(AS)

9

:skull: tsidneku(pontos), fluvius camillus(AS) x 2, antisocialmunky(saka)

4

[Apázlinemjó]

Wow, nice stats and the tournament is going well, it seems. Anyway will be one in August too?

[antisocialmunky]

We're talking about it. Perhaps a change of format and a tweaked balancing.

[m0r1d1n]

Hail General Jebivjetar...leading the armies of carthage to victory again n again...

welll i come here with good tidings too...
my third tourney victory :2thumbsup:

carthage (me) vs french-legionary(arche selukia)...

http://www.gigasize.com/get.php?d=qnnld7hjrhf

gg to french-legionary

[vartan]

We're talking about it. Perhaps a change of format and a tweaked balancing.

Not to worry, because the changes will only apply to the August '09 EB Online Tournament. And about that...only got a week to discuss the changes. Finalize them by the last few days of this month and you've got yourself a solid foundation and reason to commence the August tournament.

Good luck.

[antisocialmunky]

I want to do some tweaks to unit balancing since certains things are not counterable because of rules we currently have in place(and NO, we aren't talking about cav).

[vartan]

I want to do some tweaks to unit balancing since certains things are not counterable because of rules we currently have in place(and NO, we aren't talking about cav).

Specificity and comm. input on your tweak ideas would be great!

Good luck.

[m0r1d1n]

We're talking about it. Perhaps a change of format and a tweaked balancing.

i have played around 16 matches with the tourney rules and i must say that even though i am losing overall, i have really enjoyed the whole tournament and the battles were really exciting:beam:...gr8 work by the organizers....
as for the new tourney, if i may, i would like to give my 2 cents...

put the cav. limit back to 3...with just 1 uber heavy cav(like which got def.>25 or charge > 35, like hetairoi, sacred band,iberianlancers, cataphracts etc.),
1 heavy (like thessalians, liby-phonecians, lonco guys...etc.) and 1 medium....this way the cav would balance itself out...:juggle2:
secondly,there should be a minimum limit too...like min. 3 missile units (foot),....
apart from that, a max limit on heavy infantry too (like 10 or 12), goes towards historically accurate armies...
the carthage and selukid armies just dont look right without the elephants...maybe some special mnai extension for bringing them in..



hey i just had another idea...i'm sure it must have been mentioned earlier too....
how about in the next tourney we set up battlefields and scenarios....with fixed armies and stuff...and the battles decide the fate of different cities (already identified)..
ok I may be getting carried away here....i'll stop

looking forward tothe next tourney...:yes:

[vartan]

I can see the max on heavy cav (specially for Romans) but the minimums are odd. For instance, Hayasdan players would tend to rely on their cavalry to win their battles, while Romans may depend on their infantry. What can be done about that? Current rules allow for flexibility in regards to this. Any say?

[Gabeed]

It'll take awhile, but it seems that rules should run on a faction-by-faction basis.

[m0r1d1n]

I can see the max on heavy cav (specially for Romans) but the minimums are odd. For instance, Hayasdan players would tend to rely on their cavalry to win their battles, while Romans may depend on their infantry. What can be done about that? Current rules allow for flexibility in regards to this. Any say?

my thought on the minimums is that they would ensure realistic armies..every army in every battle had cav(light, medium and heavy), inf(all 3 types) and skirmish (foot)..the current rules DO allow greater flexibility and it is fun ...but my idea was that we should try n replicate that:book:


It'll take awhile, but it seems that rules should run on a faction-by-faction basis.

second that:2thumbsup:....different ratio for different factions...say more inf based roman army (but not all inf)..and couple of unit advantage for cav of eastern factions, but the no. of uber heavies need to be less, they are already too devestating...extra merc slots for carthies...etc.

also i would like to add that something must be done for KH...IMO they too need to rely on their infantry to win but their inf does'nt kill ppl:sweatdrop: and their cav aint gr8 shakes either

[JinandJuice]

Things is, some people may prefer all infantry instead of having any missile support. Take the "barbarian" factions for example: their missile units SUCK. Unless a player has leftover mnai, archers are almost worthless for gauls. I think we shouldn't have to put too many restrictions on units primarily to keep players guessing what units the other has. After all, intel (or lack of intel) is half the battle.

However, I support the idea that different factions should have different rules. Each faction fights differently, and it would be rather unfair to make them have the same rules as a typicall Hellenic faction.

EDIT: to prevent double posting, I'll put my battles here:

win vs Agrippa:
http://www.mediafire.com/?jvnyfvjyiyg

win vs ACS:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ynzfdfd0djo
a very respectable opponent. gg ACS!

[french-legionairy]

its special because i post a battle report and i lose this battle vs ACS. this is because ACS, the winner forgot to save replay ididnt save it also but i saved the video with fraps. here are the links of the battle.


part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVvD3v8vdUY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutube%2Ecom%2Fmy%5Fvideos%5Fedit%3Fns%3D1%26video%5Fid%3DpVvD3v8vdUY%26nex t%3D%252Fmy%5Fvideos%253Fpi%253D0%2526ps%253D20%2526sf%253Dadded%2526sa%253D0%2526sq&feature=player_embedded
part2;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnQcUgFexbE&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutube%2Ecom%2Fmy%5Fvideos%5Fedit%3Fns%3D1%26video%5Fid%3DrnQcUgFexbE%26nex t%3D%252Fmy%5Fvideos%253Fpi%253D0%2526ps%253D20%2526sf%253Dadded%2526sa%253D0%2526sq&feature=player_embedded
part3,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWBMttqRwck&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutube%2Ecom%2Fmy%5Fvideos%5Fedit%3Fns%3D1%26video%5Fid%3DVWBMttqRwck%26nex t%3D%252Fmy%5Fvideos%253Fpi%253D0%2526ps%253D20%2526sf%253Dadded%2526sa%253D0%2526sq&feature=player_embedded
part 4,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsArY_EbTAA&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutube%2Ecom%2Fmy%5Fvideos%5Fedit%3Fns%3D1%26video%5Fid%3DtsArY%5FEbTAA%26n ext%3D%252Fmy%5Fvideos%253Fpi%253D0%2526ps%253D20%2526sf%253Dadded%2526sa%253D0%2526sq&feature=player_embedded






very intense battle, it was clear that that optimization of flexibilty in coordinate all the army corps was the key of the victory. its was ACS who was better on it. he is very strong with cavalry. the way he maneuvre cavalry was decisive in this battle. therefore the battle was very close and my gallic naked regiment where dangerous

very good game

[JinandJuice]

Hey French,
let me first say that watching your battle on youtube was definitely more exciting (well, perhaps just different) than watching a replay, because we here get to see you make commands rather than view it in a third person perspective. However, let me add this: have you tried using the keyboard? It really helps when you don't have to click the run button with your mouse every 2 seconds. :2thumbsup:

[NeoSpartan]

Fellas.. although I am fairly new to this tourney I have done others in the past. I gotta say the 5 cavalry limit is OK, same with the 6 elite limit.

With cash of 36,000 it is very hard to train more than 6 Elites and not suffer having too few troops in the battlefield and risking being outflanked, outnumbered, outmaneuvered.

In addition, these rules give the player flexibility as the type of armies he is going to deploy. Although we read that KH and Romani armies mostly deployed infantry we have to understand that, for example, Romans deployed more cavalry + archers when campaigning against Parthia.

The armies you, as a general/player, deploy in the battlefield are also a response to the type of armies you will be facing.
For example: When I, as the Aedui, am facing Cohorts I deploy more axe (AP) wielding guys. When I face Casse I only deploy few of them. The only time I make lots of axe guys against Casse is if that particular Casse player starts deploying lots of armored troops.

-----------------------------------------------------------

As for KH cavalry, I suggest the player get a couple of Misthophoroi Thraikioi Prodromoi.
Their secondary weapon is AP and they have decent armor.

------------------------------------------------------------

As for rules based on a faction by faction basis... this is something that we sort off already have in place, but it could be expanded a little. We should start throwing some suggestions.

[NeoSpartan]

I'll star by throwing a few suggestions:
----------------------------------------------------------

For Aedui/Arverni/AS/Pontus/Casse

Have the Solduros/Arjos/Galatikoi Kuarothoroi/Rycalawre fight with swords only.
As I have noted before the effectivness of these units is severly reduced because they keep switching to spears when fighting. Because of this neither I, nor Gabeed, bother training these $3,000+ troops. :wall:

These guy are the top or among top elite units for their respective factions. Yet their spears bring them down a notch. For example, Solduros would beat Gaesate if they fough with swords only, as of right now they are almost even. (Gaesate wins most of the time :no:).

To do this the export.desc.file and maybe the preferences file (I can't remember) has to be tweaked with. Taking out the spear as the 2ndary weapon, leaving only swords.

I could upload the file, post it on the new tourney rulz thread, and have a link in my sig.

[Geticus]

Well I offer an outsider's view, I am not participating in the tourney but have been watching the replays with a good deal of interest, some very good games out there. And as primarily a eurobarb player I dont even play with the eastern style hammer/anvil cataphract armies much. That said I think the whole cavalry limit thing is overrated, people are losing battles because the don't micromanage their forces that well, turn them when charged et al. Heavy cataphracts lose stamina quickly, a few charges and some maneuvering and they are spent, light cavalry with good charge like leuke epos or Thraikian prodromoi can crush cataphracts, just look at some of the replays, ASM thrashed cataphracts with Roman equites extraordinarii which are nothing more than Xystophoroi with a different name, people also should practice using reserves and varying their infantry a bit- heavy spearmen anyone?? People should try to raise their game rather than burden the tournament rules with a bunch of red tape rules that will make it terminally boring. In general I think that it is better to take up a challenge and raise one's level of play rather than complain about whatever beat you, really these hammer/anvil eastern diadochoi armies are rather cookie cutter and the only reason they win so much is because few players know how to flank in detail.
Keep up the good battles.

[antisocialmunky]

Well, my thoughts on it:

We would also create heavy infantry category(non-fast infantry and around 12 max) so that central European factions get more, the phalanx limit would remain the same at 8 for Diadochi but 6 for the non-hellenic successors. There would be a max and minimum required skirmisher amount (units with skirmish) as well as a heavy archer limit(2 for west, 3 for asia on armored archers/slingers). We would tick the cav down by 1 for western factions(keep it 5 for Iberia and Carthage) but keep it at 5 for asiatic non-real-successor factions. Heavy cav is 2 for both. Semi-steppe/steppe factions(Baktria, Parthia, Indo-Saka, Sarmatians, Getai) get this further ticked up to 6 medium cav with a 3 heavy limit with an option to use light skirmisher cav(basically anything with a missile and no lance) instead of infantry skirmishers and they would have more skirmisher slots available.

The Western Barbarian factions would get an option to use any fast infantry in place of skirmishers(since most of their units are some sort of heavy skirmisher). Asian factions would also get the option to use their trademark levy spearmen/axemen hordes instead of skirmishers.

Saba would still have no rules :-p.

We'd also probably reclassify cavalry using the trait tags(excellent armor + lance = Heavy Cav, crap armor with or without lance = light cavalry, overhand spear = medium cavalry).

I'd completely abolish the elite limit since we aren't playing at 40K anymore.

CHART:
Greek and Roman:
4 Max Cav, 2 Max Heavies
12 Max Heavy Infantry, 8 Max Phalanx
6 Max skirmishers, 4 min. 2 Max Heavy Missile Units(skirmisher with armor like Makedonia Peltastai/Peltastai/Cretans).
4 Max Mercs

Casse, Gauls, Germans:
4 Max Cav, 2 Max Heavies
12 Max Heavy Infantry
8 Max skirmisher/light infantry, 4 Min. 2 Heavy Missile Units
4 Max Mercs

Iberians
5 Max Cav, 2 Max Heavies
10 Max Heavy Infantry
8 Max skirmisher/light infantry, 6 Min. 2 Heavy Missile Units
4 Max Mercs

Carthage
5 Max Cav, 2 Max Heavies
12 Max Heavy Infantry, 4 Max Phalanx
6 Max skirmsher/light infantry, 4 Min. 2 Heavy Missile Units
8 Max Mercs

Pontus/Hay
5 Max Cav, 2 Max Heavies
10 Max Heavy Infantry, 6 Max Phalanx
6 Max skirmsher/light infantry, 4 Min. 3 Heavy Missile Units

Parthia, Sarmatians, Indo Saka, Baktria
6 Max Medium Cav, 3 Max Heavies
8 Max Heavy Infantry, 6 Max Phalanx
8 Max skirmisher/light infantry/skirm cav, 6 min. 3 Heavy Missile Units(Cataphract Archers count as heavy archers for nomads though these count towards the Heavy cav as well).

Getae
5 Max Medium Cav, 2 Max Heavies
9 Max Heavy Infantry
8 Max skirmisher/light infantry/skirm cav 6 min 2 Heavy Missile Units

Saba
Win if you can.

[JinandJuice]

Well I offer an outsider's view, I am not participating in the tourney but have been watching the replays with a good deal of interest, some very good games out there. And as primarily a eurobarb player I dont even play with the eastern style hammer/anvil cataphract armies much. That said I think the whole cavalry limit thing is overrated, people are losing battles because the don't micromanage their forces that well, turn them when charged et al. Heavy cataphracts lose stamina quickly, a few charges and some maneuvering and they are spent, light cavalry with good charge like leuke epos of Thraikian prodromoi can crush cataphracts, just look at some of the replays, ASM thrashed cataphracts with Roman equites extraordinarii which are nothing more than Xystophoroi with a different name, people also should practice using reserves and varying their infantry a bit- heavy spearmen anyone?? People should try to raise their game rather than burden the tournament rules with a bunch of red tape rules that will make it terminally boring. In general I think that it is better to take up a challenge and raise one's level of play rather than complain about whatever beat you, really these hammer/anvil eastern diadochoi armies are rather cookie cutter and the only reason they win so much is because few players know how to flank in detal.
Keep up the good battles.

I completely agree with you. Most just don't know what to do when flanked.

As for the match with ASM regarding cataphracts; dammit ASM, I told you to take that off! Or would you rather have me explain the situation??

[antisocialmunky]

You threw a game. :-p

BTW- Quoting myself so people won't miss it


Well, my thoughts on it:

We would also create heavy infantry category(non-fast infantry and around 12 max) so that central European factions get more, the phalanx limit would remain the same at 8 for Diadochi but 6 for the non-hellenic successors. There would be a max and minimum required skirmisher amount (units with skirmish) as well as a heavy archer limit(2 for west, 3 for asia on armored archers/slingers). We would tick the cav down by 1 for western factions(keep it 5 for Iberia and Carthage) but keep it at 5 for asiatic non-real-successor factions. Heavy cav is 2 for both. Semi-steppe/steppe factions(Baktria, Parthia, Indo-Saka, Sarmatians, Getai) get this further ticked up to 6 medium cav with a 3 heavy limit with an option to use light skirmisher cav(basically anything with a missile and no lance) instead of infantry skirmishers and they would have more skirmisher slots available.

The Western Barbarian factions would get an option to use any fast infantry in place of skirmishers(since most of their units are some sort of heavy skirmisher). Asian factions would also get the option to use their trademark levy spearmen/axemen hordes instead of skirmishers.

Saba would still have no rules :-p.

We'd also probably reclassify cavalry using the trait tags(excellent armor + lance = Heavy Cav, crap armor with or without lance = light cavalry, overhand spear = medium cavalry).

I'd completely abolish the elite limit since we aren't playing at 40K anymore.

CHART:
Greek and Roman:
4 Max Cav, 2 Max Heavies
12 Max Heavy Infantry, 8 Max Phalanx
6 Max skirmishers, 4 min. 2 Max Heavy Missile Units(skirmisher with armor like Makedonia Peltastai/Peltastai/Cretans).
4 Max Mercs

Casse, Gauls, Germans:
4 Max Cav, 2 Max Heavies
12 Max Heavy Infantry
8 Max skirmisher/light infantry, 4 Min. 2 Heavy Missile Units
4 Max Mercs

Iberians
5 Max Cav, 2 Max Heavies
10 Max Heavy Infantry
8 Max skirmisher/light infantry, 6 Min. 2 Heavy Missile Units
4 Max Mercs

Carthage
5 Max Cav, 2 Max Heavies
12 Max Heavy Infantry, 4 Max Phalanx
6 Max skirmsher/light infantry, 4 Min. 2 Heavy Missile Units
8 Max Mercs

Pontus/Hay
5 Max Cav, 2 Max Heavies
10 Max Heavy Infantry, 6 Max Phalanx
6 Max skirmsher/light infantry, 4 Min. 3 Heavy Missile Units

Parthia, Sarmatians, Indo Saka, Baktria
6 Max Cav, 3 Max Heavies
8 Max Heavy Infantry, 6 Max Phalanx
8 Max skirmisher/light infantry/skirm cav, 6 min. 3 Heavy Missile Units(Cataphract Archers count as heavy archers for nomads though these count towards the Heavy cav as well).

Getae
5 Max Cav, 2 Max Heavies
9 Max Heavy Infantry
8 Max skirmisher/light infantry/skirm cav 6 min 2 Heavy Missile Units

Saba
Win if you can.

The light infantry can count either for skirms or heavies and the missile cav counts towards the skirm limit so you can't spam missiles THAT ridiculously(8 max for most steppe factions but you can go for 14 cav with 6 medium/heavy and 8 light missile).

Steppe Disclaimer:
-Most factions will be able to muster enough missiles to shoot down h/a hordes since the light cav classification missile cav have literally 0 armor(sometimes a shield). Steppe factions are forced to use a lot less heavy infantry so they can't spam heavy infantry + arrows of doom. Most of the high-end HA would be classified as heavy due to their lance + armor. They are also forced to use low morale hordes of cheap mans so their armies become more hit and run rather than a force that can stand toe to toe with the western factions.
-Heavy Cav is highly limited due to 4 being able to break night anything unsupported from the front.
-Heavy Missiles(mostly aimed at archers) are there to limit elite skirmishers and heavy archers(fairly uncounterable unless you have 2:1 on them with conventional archers).

[NeoSpartan]

You threw a game. :-p

....
-Heavy Cav is highly limited due to 4 being able to break night anything unsupported from the front.
...

hum.... they only cavarly that can break infantry from the front is Catas and Hetairoi. Thats it. Once the charge is over Catas can survive a melee more than Hetairoi. (that is why you can have Catas fighting in the middle of a square of Pezhetairoi and not die)

[Geticus]

[QUOTE=antisocialmunky;2296228]You threw a game. :-p

BTW- Quoting myself so people won't miss it

-Heavy Cav is highly limited due to 4 being able to break night anything unsupported from the front.
/QUOTE]

With due respect to your solid work on your tourney, I think you are lowering the bar. It is easier to maneuver a group of superexpensive hetairoi/cataphracts into position and do a focused charge than to do the same with infantry. That said, having 4 cataphracts in your army means that your infantry line is weak, look at the Neospartan battles, the cheapo pantodapai phalanx lines in the hammer/anvil cat-happy armies route quick when skillfully flanked by high lethality infantry, too few players do skillful high lethality infantry flank attacks, too many romans and diadochoi phalanx/spearmen lines fight in passive defense modes. Hell a lot of players are afraid of even attacking, they start battles with skirmisher/archers and victory is won by whoever fights passively in defense because no one has much micro skills, they rather just sit there and wait for effortless win- just look at the KH player who used the noob circle in all his battles and never even moved his army, and then Neospartan flanked him with gaesatae and crushed him and he thought it was unrealistic.

So if someone throws 17,000 minai of heavy cav at one point, then sure he should probably get a small route, but at what cost? Anyone who passively sits by when half the strength of the opposing army focuses totally on one point, deserves to lose. As for myself, sluggish cataphracts should be pestered by skirmishers early on, threatened by heavy cav/quality infantry and slammed in the flank if they do an unprotected charge, and faced with strong troops like heavy spearmen etc, high morale swordsmen, etc.

Any time cataphracts charge they should be counter charged, preferably with a combination of cavalry and quality infantry. The main reasons heavy cavalry dominate your tourney is that heavy cavalry are the focus of the majority of attention, phalanxes are used passively and most people are afraid to commit their infantry to any offensive action due to fear of losing to defensive fighting/exhaustion. But with skilled coordination of infantry and cavalry I'll take an equivalent combination of mixed cavalry and quality infantry over cataphract spam anyday. Two brihentin, 1 leuke epos and 2 helvetian phalanx against 4 cataphracts, both well coordinated any doubt who would win? The Gauls win because no heavy cav can beat quality spearmen in a sustained combat and they can't flee fast/higher endurance cavalry. And yet with the Gallic group I would still be cheaper--far cheaper.

Univector massed cavalry charges lose to multivector combined arms. Multivector just requires more skill. People focus too much attention on their cavalry and use their infantry mainly in unskilled passive defense, and that is the reason they get sequentially raped by cataphracts and hetairoi.

[m0r1d1n]

@ASM...nice work on the new rules man:2thumbsup:..it should encourage historically realistic unit ratio in armies...(like the merc rule for carthies too), eager to try them out...

[We'd also probably reclassify cavalry using the trait tags(excellent armor + lance = Heavy Cav, crap armor with or without lance = light cavalry, overhand spear = medium cavalry).]

so what would the liby-phonecian guys be classified as now??

[Apázlinemjó]

I'll star by throwing a few suggestions:
----------------------------------------------------------

For Aedui/Arverni/AS/Pontus/Casse

Have the Solduros/Arjos/Galatikoi Kuarothoroi/Rycalawre fight with swords only.
As I have noted before the effectivness of these units is severly reduced because they keep switching to spears when fighting. Because of this neither I, nor Gabeed, bother training these $3,000+ troops. :wall:

These guy are the top or among top elite units for their respective factions. Yet their spears bring them down a notch. For example, Solduros would beat Gaesate if they fough with swords only, as of right now they are almost even. (Gaesate wins most of the time :no:).

To do this the export.desc.file and maybe the preferences file (I can't remember) has to be tweaked with. Taking out the spear as the 2ndary weapon, leaving only swords.

I could upload the file, post it on the new tourney rulz thread, and have a link in my sig.

The spears are important, even if it's annoying when they are switching randomly. I like to use my Galatikoi Kuarothoroi as a versatile heavy infantry and heavy spearmen. They almost eat anything, including heavy cavalry and infantry in 1 vs 1.

[antisocialmunky]

Alt + click to force secondary weapon.

@Geticus. I'm aware of that, but army composition wise, most western factions didn't use more than 10-25% of cavalry and depending on the faction, most of it was lighter cavalry though I was thinking about tweaking the Seleucids up to 4/3 since they managed to get ridiculous amounts of cataphracts at Magnesia.

Now if you have army composition lists, that'd be great.

[vartan]

Come on, the whole fun was in twisting history. Now we've got a pseudo-historical army restriction set-up. Ahh!

[NeoSpartan]

The spears are important, even if it's annoying when they are switching randomly. I like to use my Galatikoi Kuarothoroi as a versatile heavy infantry and heavy spearmen. They almost eat anything, including heavy cavalry and infantry in 1 vs 1.

If you pay attention to your Galatikoi Kuarothoroi you would see they are much more effective with swords. Why? The big, quality, gallic sword has a high lethality.
------------------------------------------------------

To save time&space:

Fight between: Aedui vs AS (french-legionary)

After the skermish (where the Aedui slingers got murdered)... the Gallic army advanced to a waiting Diadochoi army.

http://www.filefront.com/14114763/Aedui-AS%282%299.rpy

The Gallic onslaught is victorious...

[NeoSpartan]

@ Geticus x2

---------------------------------------

Alt + click to force secondary weapon.
...

When u use infantry, RTW has a 2ndary weapon bug. (not with cavalry or skirmishers/archers)

The bug is: When the unit falls to the ground and stands back up, instead of using their primary weapon they switch to their secondary weapon. This means that you have to continually "click" or "Alt+click" as the unit is engaged.

-This the reason why Hoplites in EB don't have swords as 2ndary weapons. Back when EB .8 came out all Hoplites would, annoyingly, switch to swords as they fought. In later EB .8x builds the swords were taken out, as it was the only way to fix the problem.


.....

@Geticus. I'm aware of that, but army composition wise, most western factions didn't use more than 10-25% of cavalry and depending on the faction, most of it was lighter cavalry though I was thinking about tweaking the Seleucids up to 4/3 since they managed to get ridiculous amounts of cataphracts at Magnesia.

Now if you have army composition lists, that'd be great.

Most western factions did not fight against cavalry intensive armies. And those Western faction that did deployed strong cavalry forces themselves.... not because of tradition, but because they had to.

[Apázlinemjó]

If you pay attention to your Galatikoi Kuarothoroi you would see they are much more effective with swords. Why? The big, quality, gallic sword has a high lethality.


Not against cavalry, and I'm a fan of versatile units.

[antisocialmunky]

@ Geticus x2

---------------------------------------


When u use infantry, RTW has a 2ndary weapon bug. (not with cavalry or skirmishers/archers)

The bug is: When the unit falls to the ground and stands back up, instead of using their primary weapon they switch to their secondary weapon. This means that you have to continually "click" or "Alt+click" as the unit is engaged.

-This the reason why Hoplites in EB don't have swords as 2ndary weapons. Back when EB .8 came out all Hoplites would, annoyingly, switch to swords as they fought. In later EB .8x builds the swords were taken out, as it was the only way to fix the problem.



Most western factions did not fight against cavalry intensive armies. And those Western faction that did deployed strong cavalry forces themselves.... not because of tradition, but because they had to.

We could just tweak up the max cav up by 2 for ~30% for western factions I guess as an option against other factions. I'm not really sure. But if anyone can posts lists of armies from famous battles during this period, we can tweak that above list toward those numbers.

[Geticus]

We could just tweak up the max cav up by 2 for ~30% for western factions I guess as an option against other factions. I'm not really sure. But if anyone can posts lists of armies from famous battles during this period, we can tweak that above list toward those numbers.

Speaking out of hand without the books with me but I think cavalry maxes in the 30% range would be pretty fair, i.e. max 6 cavalry including 4 heavy. Personally from a wargaming standpoint I don't believe too much in limiting almost anything, because I think EB is fairly well balanced and skilled combined arms trumps specialization. But offhand IIRC the celtic invasion of the balkans included over 10,000 cavalrymen (wikipedia quotes the disputed number of 24,000 cavalry as well as 150,000 infantry which would be the typical sort of number for a migratory horde) and multiple remounts for each warrior. After all Gaul was a huge fertile place, and Jason of Pherae during the time of Xenophon was capable of assembling 6,000 cavalry mostly from Thessaly and including a substantial portion of heavy cav, and that is merely north Hellas, a small region compared to Gaul. For a 25% cavalry limit, say the average strong army being 20-30,000 men in accordance with the Roman 2 legion standard army size, then the question arises could west European factions potentially have fielded 7,000-8,000 cavalry in one force, and while that may have been rare due to endless factional strife in Gaul, I think it was very feasible for strong leaders. Caesar for example had 4 or 5,000 Gallic cavalry on his side even when the factional dispute between Aedui and Arverni still raged, and the Bellovaci had not even been conquered so all their men were out of the picture. In a land of millions of men which was uniformly dominated by cavalry warrior aristocrats and druids as Caesar recorded, there were surely a multitude of cavalry including substantial heavily armed aristocrat cav.

So if limits seem necessary I think Gallic factions should be capable of large numbers, 30% seems to me reasonable with 6 max cav including 4 heavies.

Getai should be capable of similarly large if not larger numbers due to their nomadic heritage and the fertility of the hungarian plane and lower danube which supported large cavalry forces of the Avars, Magyars, Huns, etc in later times and surely did the same in earlier times. I would propose the same limits 6 max/4 heavy if not more.

Sweboz probably fewer cavalry but it varied, Caesar crushed Germanic infantry hordes along the Rhine but IIRC as recounted in Bellum Gallicum, after he crossed the Rhine the Sugambri charged one of his camps with a strong cavalry force and nearly routed a legion, creating such terror by the strength of their charge that the newer recruits in Caesar's army became convinced that the Germans had cut Caesar and the entire army down in the forest and all the Romans were doomed... This signifies pretty good cavalry power. So maybe your 4 cav/2 heavy for Sweboz but I really don't know. It doesn't much matter anyways because German cav is not cost effective IMO.

The main problem with Gallic factional history is that the composition of the victorious armies that beat the Romans is not well known, what did Brennus have at the Anio when he nearly destroyed Roman civilization in one battle?

[spqrtitus]

Hi i would like to join the tournament. for now as the macedons. in hamachi im antigonos. thx

[Sir Karati]

Sir Karati (Makedonia) Vs. Agrippa (SPQR)
Hi men, i'm a new player e today i did my first battle with the makedonia's team. This is the replay:

http://www.filefront.com/14119815/31MacVsRomV.rpy

I played against agrippa, a good player but at the end i won the battle... So this is the firsth point for the makedonians :laugh4:

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

My battle against sir karati (makedonia):

http://www.gigasize.com/get.php/3198601392/sirkarati.rpy

my imperial legion has very good horsemen in its sides... the battle was decided after i ve crushed the enemy wings. I won against those alexander s sons.
Thank you for battle sir.:beam:


My score:

:2thumbsup: tsidneku(pontos), darius(chartage) x 2, hiero(KH) x 2, parallel pain(sabean),
gabeed(casse), french-legionary(AS) x 2, jinandjuice(AS), sir karati(makedonia)

11

:skull: tsidneku(pontos), fluvius camillus(AS) x 2, antisocialmunky(saka), jinandjuice(AS)

5

[spqrtitus]

Hi,
battle: Antigonos (Macedon) vs vartan (Hayasdan)
winner: antigonos

replay:
http://rapidshare.de/files/47953928/AntigonosVsVartan.rpy.html


thx for battle:smash:

[Sir Karati]

My battle against sir karati (makedonia):

http://www.gigasize.com/get.php/3198601392/sirkarati.rpy

my imperial legion has very good horsemen in its sides... the battle was decided after i ve crushed the enemy wings. I won against those alexander s sons.
Thank you for battle sir.:beam:


It was a very hard battle for me. The Cavalry decide the winner at the end... But i want the revange eh eh :laugh4:

[darius_d]

Alt + click to force secondary weapon.

@Geticus. I'm aware of that, but army composition wise, most western factions didn't use more than 10-25% of cavalry and depending on the faction, most of it was lighter cavalry though I was thinking about tweaking the Seleucids up to 4/3 since they managed to get ridiculous amounts of cataphracts at Magnesia.

Now if you have army composition lists, that'd be great.

It's great to see the rules are pulled for the better.
My 2 cents:

Cavalry:
- what I understand we want to avoid players to use heavy cavalry (indeed elite) alone, without any medium/light cav, which is so annoying with old rules, and mostly unhistorical.

Why not something like that: number of heavy cav units = no more than number of medium / light cav units. It means if 2 heavies are picked, then minimum 2 medium/light cav must be picked too (perhaps bodyguards cav could be excluded from this counting).


Abolition of elites:
- This is good idea, but I see a risk - now some factions - esp. Romani - are free to field too many cheap elite units, for example Romani up to 12 triarii or 1st cohorts (and upgraded by chevrons).

My solution (partial, though) - new limit for all: max 5 identical (homogenous) units in the army.
Originally this rule is intended to assure variery of units, against player spamming his army by only 2-3 favourite units.
But in the same time this could work well to prevent absurds like 12 trarii, or 12 principes etc.
And I think no need to make any exception from that - including phalanx.

Soon more to write on that.
BTW, ASM, I owe you :balloon3: , and congrats for this tourney :2thumbsup:

[antisocialmunky]

Yup, we'll probably see a return of the 6 Pedites/6 Triarii armies so I'm not really sure. Like I said, that is only hypothetical.

[JinandJuice]

My solution (partial, though) - new limit for all: max 5 identical (homogenous) units in the army.
Originally this rule is intended to assure variery of units, against player spamming his army by only 2-3 favourite units.


What about Roman legionaires? Historically they had a lot more homogeneous legionaries than 1/4 of the whole army.

[NeoSpartan]

Cavalry:
- what I understand we want to avoid players to use heavy cavalry (indeed elite) alone, without any medium/light cav, which is so annoying with old rules, and mostly unhistorical.

Why not something like that: number of heavy cav units = no more than number of medium / light cav units. It means if 2 heavies are picked, then minimum 2 medium/light cav must be picked too (perhaps bodyguards cav could be excluded from this counting).

....:

I gotta say I see no fear in players spending $$ on heavy cavarly alone. With a bank of $36,000 you are going to be severely restricted in the amount of dencent infantry you can deploy.

Now this is not to say that there should be no rulz what so ever....

the point is that I see little reason to further restric the player's use of cavarly. Right now, 5 cavarly max, and a bank of 36,000 is a good balance.




....

Abolition of elites:
- This is good idea....

:

I don't want to sound mean but....... :thumbsdown:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One rule that I think should be stiffened is the "No Upgrade rule"
-From what I understand right now it allows the player to spend $$ on one chevron. But gotta say, even this throws off the stat balance the EB team has developed.

upgrades (of any kind) are not distributed evenly among different types of units. With regular units being the biggest winners when upgraded. I suggest to apply the No Upgrade Rule 100%.

ex:
(1)Pantodapoi Phalangitai normally have a low moral, so I know that if I can just hold them in place and charge one of them in the side/rear, it will cause that unit and the 2 similar units next to it to rout. However, if I put a chevor to each Pandotatoi Phalangitai, that won't happen. Instead, I have turned those Pantodapoi Phalangitai into Pezhetairoi without actually spending all that $$.

(2) I can do the same with Hippeis Xystophoroi, as a KH player, and turn them into Hetaeroi without cashing out the extra $1,500+ and change factions. Now when I face Mak/AS/Ptolemoi/Batria I can let my Hippeis Xystophoroi fight toe-to-toe against Hetaeroi and not be worried about loosing the fight. Worst still, I make upgrade Misthophoroi Thraikioi Prodromoi, and now I can easly kill Hetaeroi.

And THAT is how Upgrades mess things up.

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah and your horde of scary gauls = instawin by insta rout by outnumbered + scary. You realise that in every since battle we've had I've had to add 1 chevron to each unit just to keep them from instantly routing due to your stupid naked fanatics and massive horde that does a non-guard mode run through right? Have you watched those battles against Tsidneku where by army literally falls to pieces with little effort?

And I don't buy your claims that Pantodapoi = Pezheteroi and Xystophoroi = Companions. Have you checked their stats? They still have a huge differences. Pantodapoi still die in phalanx vs phalanx and easily rout and Xysophoroi have a whopping 7 armor difference still.

I also just ran Thracian Prodromoi vs Companions and still lost with 1 chevron. So in short I'm not swayed. Come with real evidence. Come with numbers and I'll consider it though I'm handing this off to Gabeed later on.

FYI - The units that benefit the most from chevrons are AP ~8-11 morale units. It gives them staying power that htey otherwise wouldn't have. Unless you're Rome you're going ot find that that chevronning a unit's stat up to a more expensive unit is not worth it. Case: Drapnai vs Bastanae

[darius_d]

I gotta say I see no fear in players spending $$ on heavy cavarly alone. With a bank of $36,000 you are going to be severely restricted in the amount of dencent infantry you can deploy.

Now this is not to say that there should be no rulz what so ever....

the point is that I see little reason to further restric the player's use of cavarly. Right now, 5 cavarly max, and a bank of 36,000 is a good balance.

Contrary, with this limited budget, players tend to pick just 2-3 cav units, of course usually elites only.
So this is totally unhistorical with elites being standard.


What about Roman legionaires? Historically they had a lot more homogeneous legionaries than 1/4 of the whole army.

you're right JJ, - unless rules allow to pick ten 1st cohorts.

We don't want to twist history too much, do we?
Even if we have to apply many rules to keep historical I think it's worth it, and decent balance is doable for EB 1.2.

For me rules for Romans should be different than for hellens, because of difference in historical formations and in-game stats. Just one first cohort, not too much cavalry in post-marian etc.

[antisocialmunky]

I just updated the scores.

@ ACS - You might want to check your score, my numbers don't add up the same as your last post.

Currently the top 5 are:
JinandJuice @ 9
Tsidneku @ 8
Fluvius Camillus @ 6 UNDEFEATED
NeoSpartan @ 5
ACS @ 4

Obviously, Arche Seleukia is doing quite well as it has the best players on it.


So you guys have about a week left. Get those last games in and we'll crown the winners :).

[NeoSpartan]

@antisocialmunky
:wall:
Could you chill it bro, I am trying to make a point about upgrades here.

thankfully, you showed how they can skew gameplay:


...every since battle we've had I've had to add 1 chevron to each unit just to keep them from instantly routing due to your stupid naked fanatics and massive horde that does a non-guard mode run through right? Have you watched those battles against Tsidneku where by army literally falls to pieces with little effort?
....

This same thing can be done with Pandotatoi Phalangitai, with one chevron they won't beat Pezetaroi, but they will be as resilient as they are. When done to Hoplitai you are making an already high morale unit even stronger/resilient.
The end result is: instead of getting creative to defeat "stupid naked fanatics and massive hordes", just drop chevrons and don't bother with new tactics.

(since we are on this topic... 2chevrons make a Xistophoroi almost even with Hetaeroi. I wanted to test Misthophoroi Thraikioi Prodromoi, but I could not find it in the single player custom battle thingy :embarassed:)

That’s my "beef" with upgrades, hopefully it makes more sense now.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------About naked fanatics and hordes------------

In case you didn't notice about Gauls/Casse/Sweboz.... their infantry will is not the greatest, and neither is their cavalry. So, I cannot just walk up to my enemy’s front line, and engage it. Neither can I rely on my cavalry to toe-to-toe beat the enemy’s cavalry and then have it come and around and flank.

No sir, that is a good way to loose a battle. So, as a player, I gotta "get creative" to beat my opponent. Especially when my opponent is a successor coming at me with superior archers, superior cavalry, and an unbreakable phalanx.

Once my opponent gets to fight me a few times, he knows how to beat me (ask JinandJuice, he has beat me 4x in a row with AS), then I have to come up with a new strategy. And the cycle continues....

[NeoSpartan]

Contrary, with this limited budget, players tend to pick just 2-3 cav units, of course usually elites only.
So this is totally unhistorical with elites being standard.

...

I'll qoute Geticus because he said it prefectly:

....I think you are lowering the bar. .... Hell a lot of players are afraid of even attacking, they start battles with skirmisher/archers and victory is won by whoever fights passively in defense because no one has much micro skills, they rather just sit there and wait for effortless win- just look at the KH player who used the noob circle in all his battles and never even moved his army, and then Neospartan flanked him with gaesatae and crushed him and he thought it was unrealistic.

So if someone throws 17,000 minai of heavy cav at one point, then sure he should probably get a small route, but at what cost?....

...The main reasons heavy cavalry dominate your tourney is that heavy cavalry are the focus of the majority of attention, phalanxes are used passively and most people are afraid to commit their infantry to any offensive action due to fear of losing to defensive fighting/exhaustion. But with skilled coordination of infantry and cavalry I'll take an equivalent combination of mixed cavalry and quality infantry over cataphract spam anyday. Two brihentin, 1 leuke epos and 2 helvetian phalanx against 4 cataphracts, both well coordinated any doubt who would win? The Gauls win because no heavy cav can beat quality spearmen in a sustained combat and they can't flee fast/higher endurance cavalry. And yet with the Gallic group I would still be cheaper--far cheaper.

....People focus too much attention on their cavalry and use their infantry mainly in unskilled passive defense, and that is the reason they get sequentially raped by cataphracts and hetairoi.

[JinandJuice]

'tis true :)

and I have another battle versus Tsidneku. I won this time.
http://www.mediafire.com/?yujzztkmmaw

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

I just updated the scores.

@ ACS - You might want to check your score, my numbers don't add up the same as your last post.




@ asm - please check my score, it is right: where i wrote "x 2" mean that i won 2 battles against the same player.

The count is right:

:2thumbsup: 11
:skull: 5

= +6

[JinandJuice]

won against ACS:
http://www.mediafire.com/?gymjxomlyyj
a VERY close battle...eventually I managed to take down his general, which decided the battle. But until then we were both down to 500 men each with the battle still even. GG ACS!!

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

:beam:After my close defeat against jinandjice(the best player of tourney for sure), i quickly managed to recovered my score with a victory.
So against tsidneku, i ve fought an intense battle decided by my cavalry.

http://www.gigasize.com/get.php/3198607117/tsidneku.rpy victory for imperial rome

And against antigonos(makedonia)

http://www.gigasize.com/get.php/3198608418/antigonos.rpy

thank you, jinandjuice, tsidneku and antigonos(spqrtitus), for your time... was gg (great game):beam:




My score:

:2thumbsup: tsidneku(pontos) x 2, darius(chartage) x 2, hiero(KH) x 2, parallel pain(sabean),
gabeed(casse), french-legionary(AS) x 2, jinandjuice(AS), sir karati(makedonia),
antigonos(makedonia)

-> 13

:skull: tsidneku(pontos), fluvius camillus(AS) x 2, antisocialmunky(saka), jinandjuice(AS) x 2

-> 6

[_Agrippa_]

A Great Victory for Agrippa

battle #1 : Agrippa vs Antigonos (28/07/2009) (20:27)


nice battle Antigonos :yes::yes:


replay download : http://www.mediafire.com/?f2inizqmz2j

[spqrtitus]

yes nice battle. two battles against rome and i already hate their morale. theres always a turning point, at first i looks very well for me but then one flank brakes and then its over :(. thats the phalanx :)

[spqrtitus]

http://rapidshare.de/files/47975145/frenchVSantigonos.rpy.html


absolutely must see replay

french-legionaire vs antigonos
winner: antigonos

thx for this

[Fluvius Camillus]

:beam:After my close defeat against jinandjice(the best player of tourney for sure)

Is that so?:gah::gah: Why have you defeated him then once? And why did I defeat him twice too? AND made him switch to AS because of that!:skull::skull:

.

.

Oh and I am back from holiday!:beam: Hello again people!:yes:

No who is up for a fight eh???:charge:

~Fluvius

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

Is that so?:gah::gah: Why have you defeated him then once? And why did I defeat him twice too? AND made him switch to AS because of that!:skull::skull:


~Fluvius

I think the best player is not who win always, but who showing greater tactical skill.
Also i think you are good in this.
you beat jinandjuice... true... you beat me too.
But remember this: when you played with us you used katapractoi as not elite, then you played with 7 elites in field: this is not your failure, but a mistake in old rules.
However jinandjuice beat me without 7 elites, remember this.

[Gabeed]

I use cidainh. I'm the best player in this tourney. :laugh4:
Though Parallel Pain's masses of Ethiopians are also praise-worthy.

[Fluvius Camillus]

I think the best player is not who win always, but who showing greater tactical skill.
Also i think you are good in this.
you beat jinandjuice... true... you beat me too.
But remember this: when you played with us you used katapractoi as not elite, then you played with 7 elites in field: this is not your failure, but a mistake in old rules.
However jinandjuice beat me without 7 elites, remember this.

I do not play with 7 elites

- Hetairoi
- Argyraspidai
- Galatikoi Tindonatae
- Thorakitai Admetous Basilikou
- BG if they still count as that...

Hellenic catas are heavy if that hasnt changed...

I defeated you both through tactical superiority, in unofficial matches ASM showed that he could defeat my smaller elite army with a much larger decent cheaper army. He also is a great tactician.

I still am undefeated, Jin just fougth more battles.

~Fluvius

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

I do not play with 7 elites

Hellenic catas are heavy if that hasnt changed...

I defeated you both through tactical superiority, in unofficial matches ASM showed that he could defeat my smaller elite army with a much larger decent cheaper army. He also is a great tactician.

I still am undefeated, Jin just fougth more battles.

~Fluvius

Take a look: now katapractoi are elite, (you can see - E near their name)
Why you still say that they aren t elite? only for morale? :laugh4:
Then the elephants aren t elite for their low morale.

Who fought many battles against many different opponents is better than who fought only few battles (in my mind, of course).
This because some factions are better when fight with particulary factions, and worse with other factions.

[antisocialmunky]

Hellenic Cataphracts don't do very good horse vs horse in a head on clash but they do make quite a anvil for your light cavalry to hammer onto. :)

[NeoSpartan]

Hellenic Cataphracts don't do very good horse vs horse in a head on clash but they do make quite a anvil for your light cavalry to hammer onto. :)

Cata's piss me off :wall:

[darius_d]

Carthage strikes back - this time with succes, against Antigonos of Makedonia.

This is also my first official win against phalanx army.
Battle was even for most of time, especially on my right wing the situation didn't look good. But on left wing it was not that bad, and infantry was doing well against infantry and then phalanx, allowing a win, eventually.
Thanks, Antigonos.

Replay
http://www.mediafire.com/?rgymeinkiw3

[JinandJuice]

Cata's piss me off :wall:
:2thumbsup:

[Vasiliyi]

Ive been reading the reports here of battles and im quite jealous. Id love to match myself against a human opponent (even if it were to get my butt kicked). Looks like AS, one of my favorite factions is doing extremely well. Hats off you guys.

Ill be looking forward to watching some replays, can anyone recommend a really good one?

[darius_d]

Ive been reading the reports here of battles and im quite jealous. Id love to match myself against a human opponent (even if it were to get my butt kicked). Looks like AS, one of my favorite factions is doing extremely well. Hats off you guys.

Ill be looking forward to watching some replays, can anyone recommend a really good one?

Try those between best performing players.

MP experience is unmatched by campaign battles. You will learn a lot, even in friendly matches.

I feel just a small resentment that no one of EB team responsible for unit stats do not wish to join us, too. :smartass2: :smartass: :evil:

[antisocialmunky]

Well we'll probably just reset the ladder for next month and hammer out hte rules for September. If anyone knows of a good automated ladder system that is free that would be great :).

[vartan]

Well we'll probably just reset the ladder for next month and hammer out hte rules for September. If anyone knows of a good automated ladder system that is free that would be great :).

Same rules for August or are you implementing the faction-specific rules? and there are no good ladder scripts that are free (trust me). I have a good friend who might be able to help though. Check back with you when anything comes up.

[antisocialmunky]

THe August rules are up to Gabeed but since nothing been talked about I'm going ot assume that we'll just use these rules until we can iron them out more.

If oyur friend can make a ladder script that would be great.

[Gabeed]

THe August rules are up to Gabeed


Whoops, I wasn't 100% sure that I was was abruptly taking power. :beam:

Yeah, I'd love to implement faction-specific rules for this month, as well as some other rules I've been mulling over, but I don't want to just force them on everyone without getting some feedback.

Rules I've been considering:

1. No more chevrons (I've been convinced by NeoSpartan).

2. Elephant cost cut roughly in half to allow elephants to be actually used while keeping with historical armies. The Seleukids didn't go into battle with Indian elephants with 3 pantodopoi and a second-hand anatolian hillman unit (which is a slight exaggeration with what would happen if someone got elephants with our current mnai amount), they did it because in their prime they were DANCING UPON PILES OF SWEET MONEYS :elephant: . . .and could afford to use elephants without such a drastic effect on the quality of the rest of their army.

To cut elephant costs, it would mean either editing the edu, or giving all factions with elephants an "Elephant Fund," an increase of a certain amount of mnai ONLY if the army is using elephants. Their opponent would still only be able to use 36000 mnai, even though it would say that they had more to spend.

3. Changes on a faction-by-faction basis. I already have some changes ready for the Casse and Lusitani, as well as the Gauls. Essentially, what should be considered "allies" or "mercs" for these factions should be drastically reduced. For the Casse and Lusitani, I believe that all units in the current multiplayer edu should be allowed as factional units, although the Goidilic units that were pulled from the campaign should be banned from multiplayer as well. The allied/merc limit is something which is obviously more designed for the Romans and Hellenes, and it makes less sense with many of the barbarian factions. I haven't looked at the steppe factions or the Sweboz yet, but I imagine some tweaking could be done there as well in this regard.

In addition, I do want to change limits on cavalry, heavy infantry, elites, etc on a faction-by-faction basis, but it wouldn't be right for me to do that myself, given that I am just one person (and I don't want to do all the work myself), and some of you people are most excellent historians in this regard--definitely more knowledgeable about army compositions than me (although I can go on about Roman marriage laws or the First Crusade for quite awhile). So together we should work on this, maybe tweaking the tournament as August goes by. I can already state that the "cavalry max" for steppe factions should probably be removed, as the Sauromatae, for example, should be able to field 100% cavalry if they want to. Right now the steppe rules are confusing, they seem to say that you MUST have 10 infantry and 10 cavalry, otherwise you're breaking one of the maxes. There must be a mistake there or something.

That's all for now, I should really eat some breakfast. But I'd like to know what y'all think so far, if I get enough feedback . . ..uh, today, then I can implement these in this upcoming month. :beam:

[JinandJuice]

btw, are we going to post the player scores anytime soon?

[Mikhail Mengsk]

Whoops, I wasn't 100% sure that I was was abruptly taking power. :beam:

Yeah, I'd love to implement faction-specific rules for this month, as well as some other rules I've been mulling over, but I don't want to just force them on everyone without getting some feedback.

Rules I've been considering:

1. No more chevrons (I've been convinced by NeoSpartan).

2. Elephant cost cut roughly in half to allow elephants to be actually used while keeping with historical armies. The Seleukids didn't go into battle with Indian elephants with 3 pantodopoi and a second-hand anatolian hillman unit (which is a slight exaggeration with what would happen if someone got elephants with our current mnai amount), they did it because in their prime they were DANCING UPON PILES OF SWEET MONEYS :elephant: . . .and could afford to use elephants without such a drastic effect on the quality of the rest of their army.

To cut elephant costs, it would mean either editing the edu, or giving all factions with elephants an "Elephant Fund," an increase of a certain amount of mnai ONLY if the army is using elephants. Their opponent would still only be able to use 36000 mnai, even though it would say that they had more to spend.

3. Changes on a faction-by-faction basis. I already have some changes ready for the Casse and Lusitani, as well as the Gauls. Essentially, what should be considered "allies" or "mercs" for these factions should be drastically reduced. For the Casse and Lusitani, I believe that all units in the current multiplayer edu should be allowed as factional units, although the Goidilic units that were pulled from the campaign should be banned from multiplayer as well. The allied/merc limit is something which is obviously more designed for the Romans and Hellenes, and it makes less sense with many of the barbarian factions. I haven't looked at the steppe factions or the Sweboz yet, but I imagine some tweaking could be done there as well in this regard.

In addition, I do want to change limits on cavalry, heavy infantry, elites, etc on a faction-by-faction basis, but it wouldn't be right for me to do that myself, given that I am just one person (and I don't want to do all the work myself), and some of you people are most excellent historians in this regard--definitely more knowledgeable about army compositions than me (although I can go on about Roman marriage laws or the First Crusade for quite awhile). So together we should work on this, maybe tweaking the tournament as August goes by. I can already state that the "cavalry max" for steppe factions should probably be removed, as the Sauromatae, for example, should be able to field 100% cavalry if they want to. Right now the steppe rules are confusing, they seem to say that you MUST have 10 infantry and 10 cavalry, otherwise you're breaking one of the maxes. There must be a mistake there or something.

That's all for now, I should really eat some breakfast. But I'd like to know what y'all think so far, if I get enough feedback . . ..uh, today, then I can implement these in this upcoming month. :beam:

I think your rule number 2 is seriously unbalancing, even if i'm not playing the tournament. A tournament should make BALANCED battles to see commander's skills. If a faction has 18000 free mnais, 50% more than the enemy, balance is over and AS will easily win every battle.

[Gabeed]

I think your rule number 2 is seriously unbalancing, even if i'm not playing the tournament. A tournament should make BALANCED battles to see commander's skills. If a faction has 18000 free mnais, 50% more than the enemy, balance is over and AS will easily win every battle.

I think I wasn't clear, I don't mean giving the Seleukids 18,000 extra mnai. I'm thinking something more like 5,000.

Here's an example.

In a Carthage vs Romani battle, I realize that Carthage should be able to actually get elephants. So I set the mnai amount for the battle at 41,000 mnai rather than 36,000 mnai ONLY if the Carthaginian player says he is getting elephants. A Carthaginian player with no elephants wouldn't get the bonus mnai.

So, essentially, he's getting a 5,000 mnai discount on elephants--which I personally think is completely fair--since the cheapest elephants available, the tiny African ones with only one rider, are usually 10,000 each. That means he's buying the forest elephants, which can be effective but can also be easily countered, at a price of 5,000, which is still more than any other cavalry he could get. I think it's an improvement. We've gone from "there's no way I can ever afford elephants," to "well, I could afford them . . .but will they be worth it," something you should be asking yourself about EVERY unit you can get. It's no coincidence that no one has used elephants in this month's tournament.

And then, the Roman player can only spend 36,000 of the 41,000, because the discount does not apply to him. The Carthaginian player can just look and see that the Roman player has at least 5000 mnai unspent.

[Mikhail Mengsk]

I don't see why a faction should have ANY mnai bonus. So, why romans couldn't have 10000 more mnais to recreate the huge army they landed at Cannae?

[french-legionairy]

battle french legionnairy vs antisocialmunky. winner= frenchlegionnairy

i choosed arche seleukia with a balanced army and antisocial choosed saka.

the battle was intense and i have to admit it antisocial ia a good maneuvrer. the way he coordinated mobile infantry and cav was very good . my flanks were nearly broken and my cav was weakened. therephore my proud pezhetaroi had the last word.

nice battle

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ir2mkmmiewo/frenchvsantisocial.rpy

[antisocialmunky]

I admire the creativity of some of your maneuvers but I have to say that that's not how the game was intended to be played with your cav dragging my cav through your phalanxes.

[Gabeed]

I don't see why a faction should have ANY mnai bonus. So, why romans couldn't have 10000 more mnais to recreate the huge army they landed at Cannae?

It's a "mnai bonus" solely for the purposes of buying elephants, can't you see that? It's basically just making elephants cheaper, although they're still hella expensive. And in multiplayer Romans can't do crap with 10,000 more mnai since they can buy a very good army already at 36,000 mnai, and there are only 20 slots and only so many elites and chevrons you can get.

I would love to know what you would do to show a Ptolemaic, Carthaginian, or any other army that has elephants and still a viable infantry army in addition with the current mnai. It just doesn't work. In the single player campaign, I can understand the massive expense that elephants should take up, but multiplayer is a different story, and in a multiplayer setup where players can easily buy elite cataphracts, druids, incredibly armored thorakitai, and scythe chariots, elephants should be allowed to be used as well--expensive, but affordable.

[tsidneku]

Gabeed, your idea about an increase in factional mnai for elephants ought to work in theory... but it also encourages some forms of exploitation too. Can you not imagine a player getting a single elephant for the mnai bonus?

I think it would be easier to edit the edu to suit our purposes. I guess the challenge would still be to ensure that every player implements the edited edu successfully.

[french-legionairy]

I admire the creativity of some of your maneuvers but I have to say that that's not how the game was intended to be played with your cav dragging my cav through your phalanxes.

thanks for rplying,

i didnt see in the forum that rule. if this rule exist ill delete the post immediatly

[Mikhail Mengsk]

It's a "mnai bonus" solely for the purposes of buying elephants.

Your claim that AS should have at least some elephants because they historically used them in some battles simply doesn't work for RTW battles, because there would be too many elephants in the battle compared to other soldiers. You will have too many elephants for too few soldiers. Antiocus had many elephants at Magnesia (54 IIRC), but they were NOTHING in numbers compared to the mass of his infantry and cavalry.

Anyway, giving a bonus to AS just because you think elephants are too expensive is wrong. If you do that, why any other faction could not claim that his (random unit) is expensive too, and ask for a mnai bonus? Maybe not 5000, but 500? You will start a stream of similar requests.

[Gabeed]

Gabeed, your idea about an increase in factional mnai for elephants ought to work in theory... but it also encourages some forms of exploitation too. Can you not imagine a player getting a single elephant for the mnai bonus?


See, I don't think so. I think the smart ones still won't. Especially since I'm talking about the incredibly cheap ones that are easy to javelin to death (African forest) being at 5000. Others would still be as high as 10,000, or more. I'm not saying that it has to 50% of the previous cost for elephants . . . I just want to find the small overlap between expensive and affordable. Right now no one in their right mind would use elephants.



I think it would be easier to edit the edu to suit our purposes. I guess the challenge would still be to ensure that every player implements the edited edu successfully.

Yeah, I agree with it being a challenge, although I'm open minded regarding this.


Your claim that AS should have at least some elephants because they historically used them in some battles simply doesn't work for RTW battles, because there would be too many elephants in the battle compared to other soldiers. You will have too many elephants for too few soldiers. Antiocus had many elephants at Magnesia (54 IIRC), but they were NOTHING in numbers compared to the mass of his infantry and cavalry.


But you can say that about many elite units in this game . . .such as the heavily armored version of the Seleukid Thorakitai, or Basilikon Agema of the Ptolemies, or scythed chariots of Pontos. Should we just ignore all small elite units in RTW armies? Obviously the EB single player campaign doesn't, otherwise we wouldn't have these units in the first place. See, there are always going to be historical problems with RTW and EB . . .not everything will be perfect, especially with a limit of 20 units. We can either pretend elephants never existed, or have weird armies of a thousand levy troops and elephants, with the current setup . . .or we can tweak it like I'm trying to do where people may get a unit of elephants, which, yes, is probably over the historical ratio, but if you're trying to get the exact ratio then clearly RTW will never be satisfactory.



Anyway, giving a bonus to AS just because you think elephants are too expensive is wrong. If you do that, why any other faction could not claim that his (random unit) is expensive too, and ask for a mnai bonus? Maybe not 5000, but 500? You will start a stream of similar requests.

Man, I never thought I'd be in one of these arguments on forums, the ones where two people refuse to give an inch and never see the other side's point of view.

Nevertheless, that said, I shall trudge on. :laugh4:

I see you said "you think," perhaps you think I am alone or in a minority in thinking that elephants are too expensive. I think most, if not all of the people who have actually done the tourneys would agree elephants are not feasible to buy right now at this mnai level.

I mean, I'm not some crazy AS fan who loves war elephant . . .as it is I very well might be continuing the Casse come August. Nor am I disillusioned with thinking that the implementation of elephants were the most important battle technique in the ancient world. Nor am I a fan of Oliver Stone's "Alexander." However, they did very much have their place in many major battles and armies, and keeping them at the current mnai rate they're at now is ultimately the same as banning them from serious tourney play.

Finally, you ask a good question by asking where we draw the line with unit costs. However, there is clearly a line drawn between elephants and siege weapons, and the rest of the units. If you look at any normal unit, like hoplitai or Hellenic kataphraktoi, they have a very specific cost. But all elephants are not only thousands more expensive, but they are set up at rounded out totals like "10000" and "17000" as if the developers were thinking, "we just want to get the point across that these were really expensive." All the other unit costs are clearly carefully balanced between one another, but I feel that the elephants can and should be lowered. This isn't as much a historical debate, as it's a gameplay debate. I simply haven't talked about siege weapons as much because i don't think anyone would get them anyway.

In any case, I shall wait for more responses. If significantly more people are against me on this, I'll drop it, but I'll be bitter and cry a lot.

[Apázlinemjó]

See, I don't think so. I think the smart ones still won't. Especially since I'm talking about the incredibly cheap ones that are easy to javelin to death (African forest) being at 5000. Others would still be as high as 10,000, or more. I'm not saying that it has to 50% of the previous cost for elephants . . . I just want to find the small overlap between expensive and affordable. Right now no one in their right mind would use elephants.

I agree with here, however if we are going to go through this, let's not alter the EDU, let's just go with the easier way, giving them 5000 mnai should do the job as you wrote. If someone cheats...well by replay we can check the mnai the cheater spent.

My idea is that we shouldn't make the rules faction based, but culture... for example:

Western Hellenic factions: AS, Ptolies, Maks, Epeiros, KH
Eastern Hellenic: Pontos, Baktria, Hayasdan (Not sure about that)
"Barbarians": Arverni, Aedui, Sweboz, Lusos, Casse
Nomads: Saka, Sauros, Pahlava (Not sure about that)
Western non-Hellen: SPQR, Karthadastim
And Saba which will get unique rules, I guess...

Also, someone in the past advised to not let the people to have more than 4 or 5 from the same units, I totally agree with this. It's boring, when you see tons of Pantodapoi Phalangitai or Cohors Reformata dancing on the battlefield. If someone plays with Romani, then has to understand, there weren't only legionaries and Hellenic factions are not just phalanxes and heavy cavalry.

[antisocialmunky]

Has it been proposed to change the multi-EDU? We need to update the EDU anyways for KH and other factions with missing units. It would be IDEAL if we scaled down the elephants to bodyguard size(40 men on huge like Casse FM chariots) so they are around ~5000-7000 mnai - about the same as a heavy cataphract.

[NeoSpartan]

...
I think it would be easier to edit the edu to suit our purposes. I guess the challenge would still be to ensure that every player implements the edited edu successfully.

This is probably the best way to go, if anyone knows how to edit the MP unit.files please let us know.

In the meantime I'll take a look at the files and see what I can find, (I've played around with the exp.desc.files and area of recruitment files before, it should not be too hard). If I cannot figure it out I'll check the EB Unofficial Modding Projects subforum, and/or post questions there.

[vartan]

1. No more chevrons (I've been convinced by NeoSpartan).

2. Elephant cost cut roughly in half to allow elephants to be actually used while keeping with historical armies.

@1: I guess that's not a bad idea.

@2: If you have 100 elephants that cost 10.000 mnai, cutting down the cost of those elephants to 5.000 and changing the unit size to 50 is a far better idea IMHO than having a so-called 'elephant fund'. Why? Because this way, you don't need budget imbalances (where one player has greater fund than another).


I agree with here, however if we are going to go through this, let's not alter the EDU, let's just go with the easier way, giving them 5000 mnai should do the job as you wrote. If someone cheats...well by replay we can check the mnai the cheater spent.

My idea is that we shouldn't make the rules faction based, but culture... for example:

Western Hellenic factions: AS, Ptolies, Maks, Epeiros, KH
Eastern Hellenic: Pontos, Baktria, Hayasdan (Not sure about that)
"Barbarians": Arverni, Aedui, Sweboz, Lusos, Casse
Nomads: Saka, Sauros, Pahlava (Not sure about that)
Western non-Hellen: SPQR, Karthadastim
And Saba which will get unique rules, I guess...

Also, someone in the past advised to not let the people to have more than 4 or 5 from the same units, I totally agree with this. It's boring, when you see tons of Pantodapoi Phalangitai or Cohors Reformata dancing on the battlefield. If someone plays with Romani, then has to understand, there weren't only legionaries and Hellenic factions are not just phalanxes and heavy cavalry.

Still discriminatory (see how you artificially classified the factions into specific slots?) in basis. If you are going to make ANY set of rules that is in essence two ore more SETS of rules, then you might as well (in THIS case, for EB Online Tourney) create a set of rules for each faction. In other words, research that leads to the best possible faction-specific rules is better than a few set of rules that restricts a few factions to a certain category. Otherwise, you'd simply expect one set of rules for the whole tourney.

[JinandJuice]

won against antigonos.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ndqjzymmyjb

And i would contribute to this discussion, but i'm about to die from sleep deprivation right now.

Also, do we have the player scores yet?

[Apázlinemjó]

@1: I guess that's not a bad idea.

@2: If you have 100 elephants that cost 10.000 mnai, cutting down the cost of those elephants to 5.000 and changing the unit size to 50 is a far better idea IMHO than having a so-called 'elephant fund'. Why? Because this way, you don't need budget imbalances (where one player has greater fund than another).



Still discriminatory (see how you artificially classified the factions into specific slots?) in basis. If you are going to make ANY set of rules that is in essence two ore more SETS of rules, then you might as well (in THIS case, for EB Online Tourney) create a set of rules for each faction. In other words, research that leads to the best possible faction-specific rules is better than a few set of rules that restricts a few factions to a certain category. Otherwise, you'd simply expect one set of rules for the whole tourney.

Yeah but if we make faction based rules, there will be quite a lot argues, because the similar factions will get differet unit restrictions, imho, but we will see.

[vartan]

Yeah but if we make faction based rules, there will be quite a lot argues, because the similar factions will get differet unit restrictions, imho, but we will see.

Read the English carefully. You'll see the slightest hint that I support a single set of rules (I'm against discrimination).

[NeoSpartan]

ok fellas GREAT news

I just went into the EB MP backup folder and messed with the export_desc_unit file and THATS IT!

I changed to cost of elephants and game didn't crash.

I then took the liberty to run a few more test to see if the game did or did not crash:
(a) took spears out of Solduros--> game did not crash
(b) made Arjos 60men instead of 80--> game did not crash


What this means for the tourny:

As long as changes to units are simple, dealing only with costs, unit size, weapons, and values (for armor/attack) the game will not crash.

Now for the elephants...
...I can upload the file, and link it on my signature too, once a decition is made on the cost and # of elephants.

p.s Cata Elephants are TOUGH!!! :skull:

[darius_d]

The idea about elephants fund or sth similar is nice.

My proposal of how to proceed:

1) Establish rules for army formations for all factions, historically correct, and regardless of units stats or cost (this to be done later). First we need to know where to go to.
And I think this part need to be well done and organized to serve for any tournament in the future as a solid universal basis.

We might ask EB team historians to help.
Current rules allow fantasie armies. This is EB mod, anyway.
I don't mind if we spend also September on that, as in August most poeple go vacation and rules need to be tested.

Rules for specific units may (and shall) be necessary (ex.: only one unit of 1st cohort allowed in roman army).

2) Setting a balancing budget.
Edit: the budget could be well increased from current 36K because smart restrictions about formations should be enough to allow balanced army and prevent factions like Romans spend all the money.

In case of editing Multi-EDU (if applicable):

- edition of hiring cost rather, than any other stats - we want that whoever play MP in EB he has similar experience with units bahaviour on battlefield as in the campaign. Cost changes are enough to reach the balance IMHO.

- edition of unit descriptions (appearing in custom battle menu) so that all importnat information from EDU file is not missing:
* who is really Elite, Heavy, etc (I don't think of chaning unit names, or classification, but description only)
* what is primary and secondary weapon,
* AP yes or no, etc bonuses

[darius_d]

won against antigonos.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ndqjzymmyjb

And i would contribute to this discussion, but i'm about to die from sleep deprivation right now.

Also, do we have the player scores yet?

if I count correctly, you lost your lead and eventually finished on 2nd place, mate :smash:
:shrug:

this :balloon2: is for you - my congrats.


joke

[antisocialmunky]

Well the July Tournement ends tonight so get those last games in:).

I'll probably announce the final stats tomorrow and if anyone wants to nominate games for funniest, craziest, or best. Go for it!

PS. No chevrons = Gallic Advantage.

-Also, if we want to wait til September for new rules, we can just reset the ladder and keep going with the current rules.

[darius_d]

@ ASM

a question about cav -

Liby-Phoenician Cav are elites, Brihentin are elites, so then why Linchophoroi Hyppeis are Heavy only?
They apparently have same stats as L-PH Cav and better than Brihentin.

[antisocialmunky]

They are elite.

So, do you guys jsut want to keep the current ruels for August or take a brak from online play to hammer out some new rules?

[spiritusdilutus]

They are elite.

So, do you guys jsut want to keep the current ruels for August or take a brak from online play to hammer out some new rules?

Yes, I vote keeping the latest rules you mentioned on page 9 for August.
That way I can finally afford me some Pedites Extraordinarii.

[m0r1d1n]

Yes, I vote keeping the latest rules you mentioned on page 9 for August.

second that...:2thumbsup:
lets try some games with that

[Gabeed]

second that...:2thumbsup:
lets try some games with that

Third . . .ed, that is the best system at the moment. I'll be putting up a thread for August later today.

I don't see a problem with us changing the rules for the better while the tournament occurs, we've already been doing it to some extent in July.

[spiritusdilutus]

Third . . .ed, that is the best system at the moment. I'll be putting up a thread for August later today.

I don't see a problem with us changing the rules for the better while the tournament occurs, we've already been doing it to some extent in July.

I concur, currently the best system with just a couple of tweaks.
Anyone up for a "freundlich" match in the meantime?

[Apázlinemjó]

Read the English carefully. You'll see the slightest hint that I support a single set of rules (I'm against discrimination).

Try to read it when it's foreign language to you and it's night there. Thaaaaaaanks.

[antisocialmunky]

JULY TOURNEMENT IS OVER

So yeah, congrats to everyone who played! Results will be posted tomorrow. I guess I'm going to manage the August tournement. If anyone wants to switch factions, tell me. Also, this round will be scheduled to start on August 5th. There will be a new ruleset and revised rules. There will also be a new thread ETC.

Once again, its been fun :).

[m0r1d1n]

JULY TOURNEMENT IS OVER

If anyone wants to switch factions, tell me. Once again, its been fun :).

i would like to switch to Koinon Hellenon.
It's been great playing with you all:beam:... looking forward to the next tourney:yes:...

[spiritusdilutus]

It's been great playing with you all:beam:... looking forward to the next tourney:yes:...

Same here! :beam:

[Paul D]

ok fellas GREAT news

I just
(a) took spears out of Solduros--> game did not crash



Leave their spears, please. The whole point of them having spears is so they can take out cavalry. I don't care if you think they look ugly while charging, it's still useful.

I agree with darius here. if we are going to edit the EDU, edit prices, not stats.

[Paul D]

Darius D: 1) Establish rules for army formations for all factions, historically correct, and regardless of units stats or cost (this to be done later).

Current rules allow fantasie armies. This is EB mod, anyway.


This seems silly though.

If you went up against a steppe faction as the romans or greeks, there wouldn't be a magical force stopping you from getting those extra archers to counter their horse archers.

Players need to have room to adapt to their enemy and use unexpected tactics to catch the enemy by surprise, and overly restrictive army choices just make the game just plain dull.

I agree with Gabeed about elephants. They need lowered price so they can be a wild-card unit, not the odd-man-out

Right now it would be pointless to get elephants, but even if it becomes worth it, they really aren't that powerful. Just get a 800 dollar unit of skirmishers and kill all the elephants in 2 volleys. Or use flaming arrows and make them run through their own men.

[darius_d]

This seems silly though.

If you went up against a steppe faction as the romans or greeks, there wouldn't be a magical force stopping you from getting those extra archers to counter their horse archers.

Players need to have room to adapt to their enemy and use unexpected tactics to catch the enemy by surprise, and overly restrictive army choices just make the game just plain dull.



That would be historical because Romans used archer auxilia, I wouldn't complain. But they never used 5 first cohorts or principes without hastati for example. Or is it historical that the only 2 cavalry unit in hellen army are hetairoi? We can avoid it.

[Jebivjetar]

@ASM: My score is 1-1, not 2-1; one battle fought between spiritus and me was just a friendly match, so i'm stuck at zero :sweatdrop:

[Apázlinemjó]

That would be historical because Romans used archer auxilia, I wouldn't complain. But they never used 5 first cohorts or principes without hastati for example. Or is it historical that the only 2 cavalry unit in hellen army are hetairoi? We can avoid it.

I agree, however I think, new hyper restrict rules wouldn't solve the problem in a good way. Let's trust the common sense and not forget to speak with our opponent before the battle.

[Paul D]

That would be historical because Romans used archer auxilia, I wouldn't complain. But they never used 5 first cohorts or principes without hastati for example. Or is it historical that the only 2 cavalry unit in hellen army are hetairoi? We can avoid it.



then make princepes and first cohorts more expensive in the EDU

and People don't get light cavalry because most of the time it is impractical.

[NeoSpartan]

This seems silly though.

If you went up against a steppe faction as the romans or greeks, there wouldn't be a magical force stopping you from getting those extra archers to counter their horse archers.

Players need to have room to adapt to their enemy and use unexpected tactics to catch the enemy by surprise, and overly restrictive army choices just make the game just plain dull.

I agree with Gabeed about elephants. They need lowered price so they can be a wild-card unit, not the odd-man-out

Right now it would be pointless to get elephants, but even if it becomes worth it, they really aren't that powerful. Just get a 800 dollar unit of skirmishers and kill all the elephants in 2 volleys. Or use flaming arrows and make them run through their own men.


x2

You can't limit armies and have "historical formations only"... a smart general varies and uses his forces in deferent ways depending on the enemy he is facing.

[antisocialmunky]

The rules I've been cooking up allow you maximum flexibility against all threats but jsut because you're allowed to do it doesn't mean it'll work. Also, I'll try to have final scores out tonight. I'm going ot add them up from scratch.

[NeoSpartan]

Leave their spears, please. The whole point of them having spears is so they can take out cavalry. I don't care if you think they look ugly while charging, it's still useful.

I agree with darius here. if we are going to edit the EDU, edit prices, not stats.


this isn't a change of stats, :no:

IF the bug causing the unit to switch to spears without me hitting alt+click were not present THEN we would not be having this conversation. (btw... this is the same problem Hoplites had when EB .8 1st came out, they switched to swords, so the EB team took out their swords)

But since the soldiers keep switching to spears, their effectiveness is compromised. :wall: The 13 attack + .225 lethality of the sword, makes Solduros (and similar units for Casse/AS/Pontus/Dacia/Ptolemoi) able to defeat Gaesate and stant toe-to-toe with other top-notch-infantry elites. The spear 18 attack + .13 lethality gets the Solduros (and the like) killed.

When it comes to effectiveness VS cavalry both weapons dish out a can-'o-woopass. I have not seen a decrease in combat effectiveness.

[antisocialmunky]

They lose ability to brace though.

Games have been tallied, totals and some other things will be presented tomorrow :)

[NeoSpartan]

They lose ability to brace though.

..

???

[Apázlinemjó]

this isn't a change of stats, :no:

IF the bug causing the unit to switch to spears without me hitting alt+click were not present THEN we would not be having this conversation. (btw... this is the same problem Hoplites had when EB .8 1st came out, they switched to swords, so the EB team took out their swords)

But since the soldiers keep switching to spears, their effectiveness is compromised. :wall: The 13 attack + .225 lethality of the sword, makes Solduros (and similar units for Casse/AS/Pontus/Dacia/Ptolemoi) able to defeat Gaesate and stant toe-to-toe with other top-notch-infantry elites. The spear 18 attack + .13 lethality gets the Solduros (and the like) killed.

When it comes to effectiveness VS cavalry both weapons dish out a can-'o-woopass. I have not seen a decrease in combat effectiveness.

I don't know, I like the Galatikoi Kuarothoroi as it is (they have the same "problem" as the Solduros). They are able to bring down almost any type of heavy infantry (except hardcore elites) and make the enemy's cavalry charges painful. Just keep checking what they are using and alt click.

By the way, does the August's tournament starts tomorrow then?

[Alsatia]

I think we need a rest from compettitive gaming for a month, then we can play again. Just so that the tournament idea does not become really old, and becomes intergrated with normal play.

[antisocialmunky]

???

A bracing unit gets a small bonus against cavalry. That and the +8 defense that comes with light spear.

[antisocialmunky]

:jester:FINAL SCORES, STANDING, and PRIZES!:jester:

First the Faction Standings!



Faction Score(Wins-Losses)
Arche Seleukia 14
Pontos 6
Aedui 5
Romani 0
Hayasdan 0
Casse 1
Saka 1
Getai -1
Makedonia -2
Saba -2
Carthage -4
KH -18


Comments:
Rome ended up playing a total of 56 games, almost as many as the next two factions put together(Arche Seleukia @ 36, KH @ 22, Carthage and Tsideku(Pontus) tied at 20 each). Rome also had the most members followed by Carthage and Arche. Arche had the most wins and the best players this tournement do its not surprising that they have massive winnage. Shout out to Tsidneku, the one man faction!

Now, what everyone has been waiting for, the player standings!



Player Wins Losses Score(Wins-Losses)
JinandJuice 16 4 12
ACS 13 6 7
tsidneku 13 7 6
Fluvius Camillus 6 0 6
NeoSpartan 6 1 5
Gabeed 11 10 1
Antisocialmunky 7 6 1
Vartan 3 2 1
Jebivjetar 2 1 1
Agrippa 7 7 0
Mithick666 2 2 0
Sir Karati 1 1 0
Flavius_Belisarius 2 3 -1
Lestat 0 1 -1
Maris 0 1 -1
Parallel_Pain 4 6 -2
Antigonos 1 3 -2
m0r1d1n 3 6 -3
darius_d 2 5 -3
French-Legionaire 1 4 -3
Hiero 2 7 -5
spiritusdilutus 5 11 -6
Alsatia 0 13 -13
107 107


Awards

1st Place
https://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5788/goldkataphract.png
-Will get the rest done Friday, sorry guys
2nd Place
3rd Place
4th Place



Comments:
Congrats to the 23 players who participated. I've decided to take a break until Friday. Rules will be up tomorrow morning for August as well. I'm still trying ot work the kinks out of them so they are slowly coming together. If you want to sign up or change factions, post now. :)

Thanks, guys!

[NeoSpartan]

A bracing unit gets a small bonus against cavalry. That and the +8 defense that comes with light spear.

i know about the light-spear bonus... but don't all units brace?

[NeoSpartan]

for the next tourny scores... I think it is best to count wins and not subtract looses, because the other guy already gets +1.

If we look at guys like Gabeed, anitsocial, and Agrippa, they should all be in their looses brough them down. Is like giving the winner 2pt (+1 for winning +1 for the looser droping 1pt) instead of 1pt.

whatcha guys think.... :idea2:

[spiritusdilutus]

:balloon2::balloon2::balloon2:Congrats to JinandJuice:balloon2::balloon2::balloon2:


The winner of this month`s tournament

:balloon2: - you deserve a ballon

Trait assignment:

Arche Seleukia monthly tourney victory conditions - fulfilled
High-baller - Having distinguished yourself as this month`s tourney winner, you get +4 combo reputation
Divine right - You suffer no penalty when posting crap and romaioktonoi nonsense (valid `til start of the next tourney)

[darius_d]

All praise Megas JinandJuice! He was indeed pushing hard.
Good job also by ACS - I see he is the only one non-hellen (non-hellenistic) to achieve big positive score. Edit:sorry, how could I miss NeoSpartan! Praise for both of you!:balloon2:
Also, my special words of praise go to guys like Parallel Pain - who had the balls to play relatively weak faction and yet did achieve a solid score.:balloon2:
Small side note: I had 3 wins in total, not 2 (see my sig), just to clarify, nothing relevant.

I think for next time factions should keep the reported wins even if player would change faction.

So, JJ, now you can follow ancient habit and mint your own coin! Maybe like this one - golden stater of Megas Alexandros, such staters were minted during his lifetime:


http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/macedonia/kings/alexander_III/Price_0164.jpg (http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/macedonia/kings/alexander_III/Price_0164.jpg)

the obverse depicts head of Athena, and reverse - Nike handing out an olive wreath.

[Alsatia]

Arche Seleukia monthly tourney victory conditions - fulfilled
High-baller - Having distinguished yourself as this month`s tourney winner, you get +4 combo reputation
Divine right - You suffer no penalty when posting crap and romaioktonoi nonsense (valid `til start of the next tourney)

Erm, Reputation, as far as I know, is not in use here at the .org, and the "No Penalty" needs the EB approval of toleration.


NeoSpartan, I second your idea, mainly because I got the wooden spoon with -13.:shame:

JinandJuice, have a balloon :balloon:

[spiritusdilutus]

All praise Megas JinandJuice! He was indeed pushing hard.
Good job also by ACS - I see he is the only one non-hellen (non-hellenistic) to achieve big positive score.
Also, my special words of praise go to guys like Parallel Pain - who had the balls to play relatively weak faction and yet did achieve a solid score.:balloon2:
Small side note: I had 3 wins in total, not 2 (see my sig), just to clarify, nothing relevant.

I think for next time factions should keep the reported wins even if player would change faction.

So, JJ, now you can follow ancient habit and mint your own coin! Maybe like this one - golden stater of Megas Alexandros, such staters were minted during his lifetime:


http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/macedonia/kings/alexander_III/Price_0164.jpg (http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/macedonia/kings/alexander_III/Price_0164.jpg)

the obverse depicts head of Athena, and reverse - Nike handing out an olive wreath.

Fabulous idea Darius! :2thumbsup:

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

The Best player = The Winner = The King = :egypt::egypt::egypt: JinandJuice :egypt::egypt::egypt:

I ve also noted the good work by NeoSpartan, Gabeed, and Parallel Pain: they won many battles with underpowered factions.:sweatdrop:

Thank you all for your effort in this nice tournament, especially Antisocialmunky.:beam:

[Apázlinemjó]

Gg JinandJuice!

[m0r1d1n]

here's a toast to jinandjuice, to the organizers and all u guys.:medievalcheers:
once again it was great playing with u all:grin:....eager to fight the nxt tourney...:charge:

[antisocialmunky]

Yup, gg. I'm quite plesently surprised that ACS managed to get second though you probably sat your way there :-p.

[spiritusdilutus]

Yeah, it was great battling with you guys toe to toe. My stats read impetuous to compete in the next tourney. Despite it all, I reckon the next tourney is going to be even more pleasurable and we`ll be certain to compensate for all the flaws and misses in the last tourney.

[Paul D]

Currrrse you Jin!

You get off your high horse and fight on a map that is not Grassy Flatlands!

[spiritusdilutus]

hi y`all!

I know it`s a tad early to be posting anything from the battlefield and hatching the first start-off match of the tournament, but I and Gabeed had two interesting matches today. It was Romani vs. chariots of mayhem. I just thought I could post this to show that it`s possible to maintain composure when charged by these beasts.

Here`s the replay of the first match: http://rapidshare.com/files/264495033/spiritusvs.gabeed.rpy.html

Now I just hope Gabeed saved the second match, where I got my booty trashed as Polybian Romani.
That should serve as a counter-weight to my initial theory.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Is it possible for me to fight with tsidneku for the third place, seeing as we have the same amount of points.

Well played people.

~Fluvius

[NeoSpartan]

Jing and the Juice is a worthy foe indeed :bow:

[antisocialmunky]

Is it possible for me to fight with tsidneku for the third place, seeing as we have the same amount of points.

Well played people.

~Fluvius

Don't worry, you'll both get banners. :-D

[JinandJuice]

First of all, I thank everyone who congratulated me for the win. I also have to thank everyone who helped me achieve this rank :beam:! But seriously. Thanks for playing with me. I learn a lot from you guys.

To spiritus: thanks for the balloon! And I finally have the rights to troll as much as I want now! Rahahahaa!

To Darius: thanks for the balloon as well from before! I finally get a prefix of "Megas" before my name! And I like your idea about the coin minting too. Although I'm not exactly sure where to start...

To Alsatia: thanks for the red balloon! Way to be different from those 2 losers!

And Paul, you get off those hills and fight me on flat land!

[antisocialmunky]

I never get balloons lol.

[Alsatia]

I never get balloons lol.

Here: :balloon::balloon3:, for organising the tourney, and not going bonkers at my sig :beam::beam::beam:

[Vasiliyi]

Im interested in participating in the next tourney, but I was wondering if anyone could either point me to the thread that explains how to work the EB MP, or explain it here (possibly though a PM?)

Thanks a lot. I have yet to decide what faction I will play as

[Alsatia]

Read and enjoy. :beam:

August Rules Discussion (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=120408)

[darius_d]

To Darius: thanks for the balloon as well from before! I finally get a prefix of "Megas" before my name! And I like your idea about the coin minting too. Although I'm not exactly sure where to start...


Just put the coin of your choice in your sig along the golden cata banner and balloons to promote this noble tournament in community wide. This tourney is worth it, as well as your noble achievement, oh Megas.

[tsidneku]

Is it possible for me to fight with tsidneku for the third place, seeing as we have the same amount of points.

Well played people.

~Fluvius

I actually have an unreported win against Agrippa from the last day, but it doesn't really matter to me. We should play for fun sometime anyway, Fluvius. :)

[antisocialmunky]

The banners will be out soon. I need to add the faction icons but the website is down.

[Fluvius Camillus]

The banners will be out soon. I need to add the faction icons but the website is down.

Website is back up.

~Fluvius

[antisocialmunky]

Thanks, will get on them after works. Wouldn't hold out hope until tomorrow. I have to tinker with CSS to get IE7 compatibility. If anyone knows how to get rid of the gaps between unordered list items in IE7, that would be appreciated.

[IrishHitman]

There seems to be a severe lack of Maks.

That'll have to be fixed.

[Fluvius Camillus]

There seems to be a severe lack of Maks.

That'll have to be fixed.

I havent seen you in the forums for a looong time!

Still remember our lengthy Mak - Roman battle? If you still want revenge you probably have to face the AS this time!~D

~Fluvius

[antisocialmunky]

Getai will back you up :-p if oyu go against AS.

[JinandJuice]

AS will back you up if you're going against Roma and Getai:smash:

[antisocialmunky]

Go away fake Makedonian :-p.

BTW- I have a final version of that banner with the AS logo.

[JinandJuice]

speaking of btw, you spelled "tournament" incorrectly on my banner...
but yeah, if you would like to send me the new banner that'd be awesome!

[IrishHitman]

God damn Vista is making the installation hell.

[tsidneku]

speaking of btw, you spelled "tournament" incorrectly on my banner...
but yeah, if you would like to send me the new banner that'd be awesome!

Yeah, sorry to bring it up asm, but the mispelled "tournament" in all your threads has been bugging me. >< (but I do work as an editor for a living)

I was hoping you would make the change on your own volition eventually.

[antisocialmunky]

Might have worked better if someone actually brought that up.... like 1.5 months ago.

[Alsatia]

Where are the other banners for second and so forth?

I happened to spell correctly on my siggy.:beam:

[antisocialmunky]

@ Spoonie - I'll work on them later today.

[antisocialmunky]

Banners:
https://img142.imageshack.us/img142/5788/goldkataphract.png
https://img405.imageshack.us/img405/2060/silvervictrix.png

I think I'll jsut make one per day since there are three more togo.

[Alsatia]

I can help you (if you want)